"He knew she was too drunk to make any decisions about anything. But he went ahead and had unprotected sex with what amounted to a comatose person"

That is absolutely rape.

Either she was raped or she was a cheating piece of shit. The former requires a police investigation; the latter requires you drop her stupid cheating ass.

There is no complication to be found here.

Even if she cheated, it doesn't have to be a deal breaker. Did they have a well understood commitment to begin with? Sounds like not. If nothing else, this is a good way to get the conversation going that needed to get going. He is not blameless. If he felt so strongly about her, he needed to be sure she knew that.

He should forgive her, and let the past be in the past (but they both need to get STD tested). If she is as serious about him as she says, it will not be repeated. If it is repeated, and he wants a monogamous relationship, then it won't be with her.

I'm going to go with the spidey senses, which say "CPOS." Dump her.

Not going to Thanksgiving together was the clue.

People who need space, or trust each other or any of the one thousand metaphors for I'm young, hot and want to fool around should be the clue to turn off the high beams that you may see the fog.

Such a great flowcharty response to a hazy situation. Excellent guidance.

My first instinct was to shout RAAAAAPE. And that would be my second and third if I believed what this guy apparantly believes about the situation. Why haven't you called the cops?

If she was already flirting and allowing someone else to kiss her before she considers herself being too drunk to make decisions, then she was acting like a total cheating douche, even before she got blackout drunk.

And when she told you about it, she says part of her thought you wouldn't care or that you weren't/aren't committed to the relationship? After you moved across the country to remain with her? Unless there's some pretty big details not mentioned on these points, there's enough fault on her shoulders that you're well rid of her.

@8 nails it.

You're getting played like a fiddle.

Rationalizations.

She should have kept her mouth shut about this. But she couldn't/was afraid she'd be found out, so she guilts him by saying he wasn't committed, therefore she thought he wouldn't care. That's BS.

In the end, it is just a drunken hookup. But probably fatal to the relationship. Live and learn.

If she was too drunk to give meaningful consent, regardless of kissing, flirting, or thinking that maybe her boyfriend wouldn't mind, then she was raped.

She is under no obligation to report it to the authorities, any more than she would be "required" to report that she and someone else got in a fist fight, her car got keyed, or she saw someone else smoking weed. Her failure to report a rape to the police in no way means she was not raped. Please stop using that as a litmus test. (It's particularly irritating to me because I was raped, and I never reported it. This does not mean I was not raped. It only means I never f'g reported it!)

Her story doesn't really sound like she was raped. It sounds like you WANT her to have been raped so you can place all the blame on the other guy. It also sounds like she got drunk specifically to disinhibit herself from doing something she wanted to do but felt like she shouldn't. And now you're desperately trying to piece together a story that means you don't have to make a hard call.

I've been there, man. I have been in your position, in your mental state, at your age.

Get out.

You're going to obsess over this. I can hear it in your (stylistic) voice. It's going to ruin you and poison this relationship if you try to keep it going, because you just aren't at a point in your life where you can process it yet, and because it sounds like it was borne out of a struggling relationship to begin with.

And a couple particular tidbits:

"The worst part is being apart made me realize how much I love her"
No, it did not. This whole situation made you desperate not to lose what you have, because losing things is scary, even when we're better off without them.

"She says that part of her felt like I wouldn't care, because she has frequently doubted my commitment to the relationship."
She's probably right. You don't sound like someone who was really committed. You sound like someone who wants to be committed but isn't, and it sounds like things are distant and tense between the two of you. If I'm reading too much into your letter, forgive me. But you've only been with her six months and you sound way too melodramatic about this for your estimation to be entirely healthy and correct.

Go. Get out. Break up. Don't be hostile about it, don't slut-shame, don't make it her fault. Just do it. This is a sign. Go. Go!

And look - I'm not ruling out the possibility that she was raped, okay? So nobody discharge their outrage on me. It just sounds a lot more to me like SFMiP is the one imagining a rape scenario here, while his girlfriend is only invoking the alcohol to muddy the waters and dodge responsibility, just like millions of young people do every weekend when they want to hook up but don't have the self-possession to just do it.

Weird how you never hear from rapists in Savage Love. Like, " I raped somebody and I feel so bad. How can they get on with my life?" Or, "Hey Dan, I raped this girl-should I turn myself in?", "How can I explain to my future partners that I raped somebody, but I'm better now?", "Will being a rapist affect my future relationships with women?"
I don't think men ever admit to rape.
I put in "rape" as a Google news alert and it was quite amusing. Some of the news reports were "Man attacks woman walking home, allegedly rapes woman in bushes, beats into unconsciousness-claims sex was consensual." "Man breaks into house, forces teen-ager out of house, allegedly rapes her for 72 hours, leaves beaten, stripped and hog-tied by the side of road. Man claims sex was consensual."
You know, if this was a male-male relationship and the guys boyfriend was drunk raped by a known creep, I don't think drunkenly flirting/kissing some guy would warrant unprotected ass rape.
Boyfriend would be advised to get raped boyfriend to a doctor and to call the police and report the rape.

I agree with @8,

SFMiP, you moved cross country with her, and she doubts your involvement. Maybe the test should be you move back where you came from, and if she cares she'll follow. OTOH if her self esteem is low enough that she doubts anyone could love her, the blotto drinking may have another level of significance.

There is a part of me that wonders why she shoved this into your face if she isn't going to press charges. If the creep was willing to have sex with a comatose body, this might not be the only time he's done it. Were there any other persons to witness what happened? Might this be his modus operandi for date rape?

SFMiP, through no fault of your own you've been saddled with a heartbreaking burden. Don't let anyone guilt you if you break things off, or that you are cautious/paranoid going forward. BUT under NO circumstance should you treat your girlfriend badly. If you want to keep things going, you'll just poison the well. And if you want to leave, being civil will help you live with yourself better in the long run.

Peace.

"She says he took advantage of her. From what it sounds like, he was the most creepy douchebag he could be without actually assaulting or raping her."

"He knew she was too drunk to make any decisions about anything. But he went ahead and had unprotected sex with what amounted to a comatose person"

"eventually she just wasn't in control of the situation and wanted it to end, and tried to end it, but couldn't"

Dude, that's rape. "Tried to end it, but couldn't." That is rape.

"or not see a mental image of her losing control and being violated when I look at her. I'm worried that makes me an insensitive jerk who blames women for when men can't keep it in their pants."

Yes. Yes, it does.

"though when confronted, his version was different."

Yeah, of course it was. What were you expecting? "Yeah, I totally raped your girlfriend when she was passed-out drunk. Hope you don't mind!"

(On calling the cops: that'd be her call, but don't expect the cops to be overly sympathetic. Only about 50% of rapes reported to the police ever get investigated or passed onto the DA).

i can't even get one person to fuck me, wtf.

@5: Wha? The mister and I have been together (and monogamous) for a decade and have never spent Thanksgiving together. We both value time with our families, who we rarely see, and live thousands of miles away (from us and from each other). There's nothing inherently cheaty or ambivalent about celebrating holidays separate from a partner. And, in fact, this year he spent Thanksgiving with his family while I stayed here and worked. Incredibly, I didn't get hammered and hook up with douchebags, nor did he. I doubt we're special. Come to think of it, though, we *are* both unicorns.

Oh and the girl should just dump this dude.
"But it's not that simple, and part of me doesn't know if I can ever truly forgive and forget, or not see a mental image of her losing control and being violated when I look at her"
Girl, this guy just going to treat you're like a worthless slut or damaged goods. No future with him. DTMFA

Whatever else happens, sounds like she needs to quit drinking.

Girlfriend's a lyin' cheatin' ho. DTMFA.

There is a part of me that wonders if the girlfriend has experienced buyer's remorse, and that this is a way to have blame go on SFMiP for abandoning her after a tragic event. That scenario is so scummy that I almost feel skwicked for coming up with it.

Peace.

Stirwise@19: don't feed the troll.

Letter-writer: if she doesn't think it was rape (and it's a little unclear from the latter whether she does, and that's kind of important), then you might get a lot of clarity on the matter by asking her to go to A.A., or even just to stop drinking for a while.

@21 +1. Probably the best advice here.

Dan nails it. Ultimately, listen to what your heart tells you about this woman and act accordingly. If you think she's exaggerating about her drinking to escape blame, that's almost more of a red flag than cheating.

And remember - even if your GF was too drunk to legally consent, she has plenty to apologize to you for (see @8), and you are not obligated to stay in any relationship you don't feel good about. In fact, I'd say you are morally obligated to end such a relationship.

No one here has enough exposure to this event to call it a rape. The guy she had sex with was stone cold sober? Or was he also drinking and flirting & kissing a girl who was drinking and flirting & and kissing him back? Seriously, I appreciate that we all recognize the importance of sexual assault, but implicit in this "Oh, that was rape" reaction is the sexist assumption that women are bad drinkers and the slightest drop of alcohol turns them into victims.

Non-consensual sex is not cheating.

Flirting and kissing while sober is cheating, however. At least it would be in my relationship.

I don't know that this was rape. It obviously could be, whether the girlfriend reported it or not or whether or not she even characterizes it as such.

But there are a lot of indications that she's trying to absolve herself of any responsibility in a drunken hookup. First she suggests that she was too incapacitated to resist, but then admits to having flirted with and kissed this guy before she was comatose (and yes, she could have still flirted and kissed willingly and still be raped, I know). Then the lw says that the guy was confronted --by whom is unclear--and his version is different than the gf's (again, yes, this doesn't prove it wasn't rape). It would be interesting to hear his version of the night's events.

It's when the gf essentially confesses to willingly, if drunkenly participating, excusing her actions because she doubted her bf's "commitment to the relationship," that I begin to question the rape charge. (Wanting something to end, by itself, doesn't mean the that the sex was rape. I've occasionally started consensual sex that was yucky and wanted it to end, but those weren't acts of rape.)

I think she is grasping at straws, trying to justify behavior she knows might end the relationship.

This doesn't necessarily mean that the relationship should end or has to end. But the lw's attitude doesn't suggest that there is much hope here.

He distrusts his gf, and if he really thinks she was really raped, his attitude is a distant relative to that shared by men who are in favor of "honor killings" for rape victims.

It sounds like both these young people have a lot of growing up to do. I wish them the best and hope they are kind to each other.

Failure to report a rape doesn't mean it wasn't rape- there are a lot of reasons NOT to report a rape, and no- voluntarily getting wasted, flirting, kissing, etc DO NOT make it not rape. They make it more likely that reporting it will be a nightmare, though.

But...Dan is on the money here. Who do you trust? Flirting, kissing, getting wasted with a stranger... Put aside the rape question, it's still not behaviour I look for in a partner. And coming back with "I didn't think you'd mind cause you don't seem too committed" is just off, somehow. Like putting the blame on the guy, "if you'd been more committed somehow, this wouldn't have happened."

Add those factors up, and then add this- either is WAS rape, or you're dealing with a woman who casually accuses a man of rape, just to reduce the guilt/consequences of her infidelity.

Either it really was rape, or this woman is really bad news.

If it really was rape, you can't blame her for that. But you still can blame her for irresponsible drinking, kissing, flirting, and manipulation after the fact.

I wouldn't be hanging around.

@LukeJoe: The slightest drop? No. But if she was, as the LW describes, 'obliterated drunk' and 'what amount to comatose' and 'tried to end it it but couldn't', then she was raped. Even if she was drinking and flirting and kissing - that's still not consent to sex. Being flirted with and kissed by a drunk person is not permission to fuck them, even if they do end up comatose.

(Also, if she doesn't ever get blackout drunk, if she knows her limits and respects them, and if this guy is really a grade-A creep, don't just automatically assume that she has a drinking problem. He could have slipped her something. I'm not saying he definitely did, but that's as reasonably likely as her being an alcoholic, especially if she's never gotten that drunk before).

Wow. Can't say I'm a fan of the virulent hate for this young woman. Women being disbelieved or belittled when they come out with sexual assault allegations is constant--especially when it's flirtatious, drunk, or otherwise questionable in a court of law, and especially when they don't want to go to court with it.

But that doesn't matter in this situation. The question isn't "was she sexually assaulted." There's no mention of a police investigation, so I can only imagine that she doesn't want to pursue one. (THAT IS HER RIGHT, Sloggers; try not to forget that. Lack of investigation doesn't mean assault didn't take place.) All that is a moot point. The point here is: can he live with it either way? And the answer seems to be a solid "maybe." If it helps him to sleep at night next to his girlfrien, then believe her and let it lie. If that bit of doubt won't go away and you can't get over it, then he can't get over it The truth is irrelevant here, and more importantly the truth is unfindable. I'd say give it a go and if you can't live with it, don't. But make it clear when you break up with her that it's because YOU can't handle it, not because what may or may not have happened that night.

Simple solution here - he should tell his girlfriend that what she described is rape, and as such he feels morally obligated to report the incident to the police. If possible, he should also make it clear to the alleged rapist's friends that this is what he plans to do.

If this was actually rape, the girlfriend will stick to her story and the friends will keep quiet. If this is a load of bullsh*t (as I suspect it is), the friends will go ballistic and girlfriend's story will change more Herman Cain's.

Either way, things wind up for the best. Rape is an incredibly serious allegation. It can destroy lives and drive people to suicide. If you aren't ready to make this allegation to the police, you have no business making it at all. OTOH, if this was actually rape, I'd rather destroy this six month relationship than allow a (likely serial) rapist off scot-free.

Short of the police, maybe a rape counselor or some kind of social worker.

Dan, it shows admirable humility that you punted to Sugar on this. I seem to remember you cited this column before. It's a good one. I remembered to bookmark it this time.

You can put me down with the commentators who argue that the greater problem is her drinking. And I would argue, her lack of maturity, i.e, flirting, kissing strangers while uncertain about the guy she's with, rather than approaching him -- even via her cell phone -- to try to work out her feelings.

If I were in this guy's shoes, I would compassionately take leave of her, not because she's a CPOS, or "damaged goods", but rather because she has serious issues that need therapy, not "romance", the latter of which could only prevent her from working on herself.

Tough one.

I am pretty sure I could forgive my partner if he said he had a few drinks and fell into the sack and it was an unplanned spur of the moment thing.

What blips on my radar it earlier in the evening when she was flirting and kissing. Why? Doesn't sound like somebody who is committed or discussed an open relationship.

It occurs to me that if she was trying to lie about being raped in order to cover up an infidelity, then she would have used less ambiguous language when describing what happened. She would not have confessed to kissing or flirting with this guy - she would have played it up to make herself look completely and unassailably the victim.

Lots of women who have experienced sexual assault, however, are reluctant at first to actually describe what happened as rape. They don't want to think of themselves as victims, which is a perfectly understandable reaction. I suspect that the GF is feeling even more conflicted about what happened than the LW, and trying to figure out how she should define what happened.

If the LW really loves her, he'll stop trying to put her on the defensive and help her talk through her feelings. Someone suggested a rape counselor, and that would not be a bad idea

@36 I've been reading since 1993 too. Yep, never seen a rapist ask for advice. And why should they? Accused of rape? So what, bitches lie. And if there not lying, so what? Chances of being prosecuted for rape are slim.
Liberal oasis Portland Oregon is a haven for rapist. According to the Oregonian, the Portland auditor's office published a detailed audit into why Portland police do a poor job of solving sex crimes.
Last year, only 56 percent of the 666 reported cases of sexual assault were assigned to a detective for investigation.
19% of forcible rapes were solved by detectives.
The auditor's office found that rapes by someone the victim knew, particularly if there wasn't physical evidence, often became the lowest priority.
Erin Ellis, executive director of the Sexual Assault Resource Center in Washington County, said one detective told her that she wouldn't investigate any rapes not involving strangers because the sex-crimes unit doesn't have the staff.
rest of article herehttp://www.oregonlive.com/portland/index.ssf/2011/03/auditor_says_portland_police_s.html

What he describes as her recall of the story is rape. It's up to her to deal with that how she sees fit. If he cares for her, he'll back her up.
What weirds me out is this guy only suddenly realized how much he "cares" for her now that he gets disgusted thinking about her with another dude. Sounds like this guy's problem is being a drama queen. I mean, he says he realized while he was away, but this whole "ohmigod, did my girlfriend cheat on me???" when he clearly describes her being raped by a creep, is drama. He doesn't seem to doubt her story that much - she says she wanted it to stop, and it didn't, he is just trying to figure out if that is rape or if she's a cheater from the story at hand that he apparently believes. If he believes this story, he should back her up, not hem and haw over whether it's cheating or rape because she kissed the dude earlier in the night before the dude pulled a bunch of bullshit. The way it reads, it's not a story of him trying to figure out whose version of the story is right, it's the story of him trying to decide if he's going to forgive his girlfriend after a man raped her. Gross.

@15, there ya go, @41 is pretty much admitting "yup, I raped waaaaay too many gals in high school and college..." Of course he doesn't see it that way.

Absolutes are dangerous, but I've never been with someone long term, or had a move-across-the-country level commitment, where my response to them telling me 'I was raped' would be doubt.

If you doubt her story, leave her.

If you don't doubt her story but think she's damaged, leave her.

You'll be doing you both a favor.

@41 -- So, do men warn each other about the women who seduce men and then claim it was rape? "Ooh, stay away from that chick, she has accused half the football team of raping her on different occasions." My impression was that male gossip was more about which women would put out, and not which women to avoid because they always alleged rape.

Hey unregistered, cowardly troll 44 -the SL letter is about rape. I posted about the lack of letters from rapist asking for advice. Previous post was a reply to 36 who thanked me for my post.
2 post about a topic that makes you uncomfortable is hardly thread jacking.

I'm rubber, you're glue-fuck you.

I like the letter, if none of the characters. Was it cheating or rape? My guess is that it was both, which makes the question of mitigation very interesting.

As I dislike them about equally, I respond with my standard advice to marry at once.

Thank you, Mr. Ven for making me laugh.
I needed that.

Dan, you've always been good, but that Sugar column was downright amazing. Color me impressed.

@33 If this was actually rape, the girlfriend will stick to her story and the friends will keep quiet. If this is a load of bullsh*t (as I suspect it is), the friends will go ballistic and girlfriend's story will change more Herman Cain's.

I think you know very little about the psychology of a rape victim. Or of a rapist's friends. Look at the posts here on SLOG! None of these people, yourself included, have a vested interest in defending the creep, yet many of them are doing so, vociferously. Nowhere does the letter writer assert in any way that the creep was innocent, virtuous, or anything other than a creep, yet poster after poster here has rushed to defend him from the horrible accusation of doing what is done to an enormous percentage of women.

Her story is very straight-forward. The letter writer states, "I believe her". It's pretty unequivocal. The letter writer doesn't want to call it rape and lots of people are like that. So many seem to think that if the rape didn't involve violence, then it wasn't rape.

"she just wasn't in control of the situation and wanted it to end, and tried to end it, but couldn't" If this was a BDSM scene and she was saying her safe word, and being totally ignored by her partner, who then proceeded to penetrate her and have sex with her, that would be rape. She tried to end it. She couldn't. The letter writer says he believes her and he is in a better position to know than any of us.

Rape is an incredibly serious allegation. It can destroy lives and drive people to suicide. If you aren't ready to make this allegation to the police, you have no business making it at all.
Your statement here makes me all kinds of angry. What you're saying is that if a woman isn't willing to perform to your standards after being raped, that you're going to tell her to shut the fuck up about being raped.

I second (third, fourth?) the comments on her drinking. I think regardless of what exactly happened she has a drinking problem. Drinking yourself semi-comatose isn't a good sign, but doing so in an unsafe-ish enviroment (i.e. with no one looking out for you) suggest she should seriously rethink her drinking, maybe even stay completely dry for a couple of months. I'd make that part of a conversation about the future of the relationship.

Wow, this comment thread is gross. Maybe she was raped and maybe she wasn't, but trying to play armchair detective by creating imaginary rules about how rape victims do or don't behave or how the choices they made beforehand are part of the problem is the kind of bullshit that creates an environment where rape is common and justice for victims is very much the opposite.

I agree with Dan that SFMiP needs to get to the bottom of what he believes about this incident (while understanding that, statistically, it's far more likely though in no way certain that his gf is telling the truth), but the part where SFMiP writes "or not see a mental image of her losing control and being violated when I look at her" is disturbing, and I think he needs to get to the bottom of that, too. It sounds like his issue isn't that he doesn't believe her but that he does and he doesn't know how to get past feeling repulsed by her as a victim. I won't say that's not one of many normal responses, but it's not cool and it would be a really shitty reason to dump someone.

@45: Erica - where in @41 does he say he rape a bunch of college girls?

@15, @17, @42: FYI, 7% of rape accusations are provably false. That's a lower bound of actual false accusations given the large number of cases like this one that can't be proven one way or the other. Raping someone is an awful crime that can have permanent negative consequences on victims. So is a false accusation of rape. It's depressing when "liberal" people seem ready, no eager, to trample basic civil rights such as due process when it comes to crimes like this.

@47: I'd like to think the hotel maid who set up Strauss-Kahn, the hipster who lied about Isaac Brock, the Portland masseuse who tried to take down Al Gore, and the prostitute who falsely accused the Duke La Crosse players aren't getting many dates these days. More likely, it's the men in these cases who's sex life is suffering given that these accusations tend to stick in women's minds, even after they've been debunked.

I'm with balderdash here. Maybe the events are as she describes, maybe not. But he's well on his way to slutshaming her over this whole thing, and I think that will doom the relationship regardless of which scenario actually happened.

Dan's advice isn't bad, but I have a bad feeling about LW's description of being "furious and disgusted" with her. I think that's going to eat away at the relationship if he stays in it. Again, *regardless* of the actual situation (whatever it is -- we don't know).

And y'know, it gets real old to see the slutshaming taken up with such glee here. Real old.

@55: but the part where SFMiP writes "or not see a mental image of her losing control and being violated when I look at her" is disturbing

It's absolutely normal for partners of rape victims to feel violated and traumatized by the assault. Actually, I think it would be disturbing if the partner didn't.

Now add the likelihood that the victim in this case fully intended to cheat on her partner that night but simply got too drunk to do so consensually, and you've got a thoroughly warped situation that gives him no clear story to make sense of what happened and move beyond it. Fun times.

I really hate topics like this that polarize men and women. Hate 'em.

@ 33

All I'm saying is that if she's serious about the allegations she's making, she should be talking to more people than her boyfriend. Of six months. To whom she has a very big reason to lie. I can understand the hesitation to go to the police. Maybe she's just not ready. But she should be talking to somebody else - maybe a rape counselor or a social worker. Just wishing this event away will only allow a rapist to go free and, in all likelihood, cripple this woman emotionally for the rest of her life.

I have no doubt that a very large majority of those people who allege rape were, in fact, raped. It doesn't seem like the kind of thing any sane, rational person would just pull out of their ass. But there are crazy, reckless people out there who do crazy, reckless things. For you to make a blanket declaration about the mental state every single purported rape victim is laughably naive, not to mention demonstrably false.

And I really couldn't give a sh*t if you get 'all sorts of angry' about my statement. My standards on being raped are completely immaterial here - maybe it happened, maybe it didn't. Nobody in this forum is the least bit qualified to say one way or another. All I'm saying is that if she's willing to say what she said to her boyfriend, she should be willing to say the same thing to the police. If she needs some time to process things, fine. But she should not be afraid of telling this story to the police if it's anything close to the truth.

@ Mike: You must indeed live in a very small world if you think men are just one exceptional erection away from becoming a rapacious beast.

Let's assume that's what happened: this poor guy just got so horny that he couldn't help but fuck (rape) a blackout drunk person. Who's more at fault: the woman for drinking herself into incapacity (and that's assuming her rapist didn't slip her something); or the man for not being able to control himself? He couldn't just go into the bathroom and whack off, he absolutely *had* to fuck (rape) her? And who wants to fuck a nearly-unconscious person anyway? Isn't sex more fun when your partner is, you know, active and participating and obviously enjoying what's going on? What kind of person even finds blackout drunk arousing? (Answer: predators).

Also, you should start reading more Savage Love archives: you'll quickly find out that there are many high-libido'd women in relationships/married to men with a significantly lower libido. I also recommend the Litvak studies on uncaught rapists, who purposefully corner women, ply them with alcohol and manipulate the situation to make it seem like 'gray rape.' It's not about being uncontrollably horny for those men - it's about using sex as a tool to achieve dominance over others.

Seandr, sometimes people are wrong.

http://tinyurl.com/d3lmg6

The 7% number you cite is about the same as false reporting for *all* crime. I'm unclear on why so many people choose to focus on that 7% and not the 93%.

# 8, bullseye

@55: NAILED IT. Thank you.

And Seandr, if you hate these threads, why do you add to them?

You people are gross. Crying rape on the basis of a third-person's retelling where the facts change from conversation to conversation, and even inserting your own where you want. It's no wonder people don't take rape victims seriously. She didn't even call it rape! "Hey, LW's girlfriend. That drunk hookup you had last night? You were raped. No...no...don't argue. We're experts." Sick and wrong.

"She says that part of her felt like I wouldn't care, because she has frequently doubted my commitment to the relationship."

That sounds like projection to me. I think you aren't committed to me, and that gives me a rationalization to go ahead and fuck around, because I think YOU don't care enough about the relationship.

Really? People who are committed to the relationship don't fuck around based on whether or not the OTHER person is committed. Your commitment to the relationship is yours to keep, or break.

The fact that she chose to make that rationalization makes me suspect that comatose-drunk is an exaggeration to get her off the hook. She knew what she was doing well enough to make that rationalization back when the flirting and kissing was going on -- well before she blacked out, if in fact she blacked out at all.

@61, if you really think that a rape victim willing to disclose the incident to a boyfriend has no reason to "be afraid of telling this story to the police if it's anything close to the truth," then I think that you need to take a good look inward when you talk about statements that are "laughably naive, not to mention demonstrably false."

@58, I've made no mention of either party's gender playing into this event and I don't see either gender holding a particular monopoly on either accurate or asinine statements about rape, so I don't know why you think some idea of polarized gender has anything to do with my comment.

I have no problem with partners of victims feeling traumatized (another issue that doesn't have anything to do with my comment), and I've already said that his feelings of "disgust," as he puts it, toward his girlfriend because of her "being violated" may be totally normal. But sometimes things that are normal are also pretty messed up and need to be worked on and worked through.

I believe that more men ruin their own loving relationships by being "disgusted" when a girlfriend or wife is raped than they actually let on. Slutshaming is real. I had a boyfriend refuse to touch me or have sex with me when I told him that I'd been sexually abused as a child. Why? He said it "wasn't your fault, of course," but that he was "disgusted." Blaming the victim is an old, old story.

In this case, however, it's worth focusing the bulk of your attention on the drinking. I don't know whether she was raped or not, and it doesn't matter. The girl was drinking really hard, and that's not healthy. So LW, before you make up your mind about any of this, see if you and your girlfriend can get yourselves to a counselor to talk about why anyone would get themselves into a semi-comatose state? Hard, hard drinking doesn't happen in a vacuum.

There's clearly something going on here -- even if her account is the true one, she's moved across the country with someone who has allegedly given her reason to 'doubt his commitment to the relationship.' She's either got a self-destructive pattern, relationship-wise, or she feels like something's already gone wrong with this relationship and is slamming her hand down on the self-destruct button in the hopes of an easy out (or is trying to parley what happened into getting some sort of manipulative edge over his emotions).

And, again, that's the scenario assuming she's telling him the truth. I'm not going to get into whether she was raped or not because her most positive account of what happened sounds like a bigger red flag than whether this guy's a slutshamer.

I'm honestly curious as to where this guy's roommate or his roommate's brother was and why neither of their accounts of the party are present here. Are they vouching for him? Are they pretending they didn't see anything? Did she vanish within thirty seconds of meeting this guy? And why isn't the LW sharing anything they've got to say (or not say) on the matter if the truth of that night is so important?

Or for that matter, what happened before/during his trip away that he reached some grand new appreciation for her before coming home?

There's definitely something going on that's not described in this letter and I'm getting the vibe that this relationship is not going to last another six months even with the best case scenario here. These people need to break it off ASAP.

This is so disturbing. Something says rape but if the GF isn't acting like it's rape, is it? We don't know.

That was some smooth advice, Dan. I think you covered it. If it was me, I'd go with letting her slid and then whip the living shit out of the jerk who fucked her in that drunken state.

This will live in the LWs mind for the rest of his life. I pity him because he's stuck between two plausible explanations. If the LW goest with the girl, he better pick up the phone call the cops, too. Otherwise, if he stays with her, he'll live the rest of his life thinking he didn't do the right thing by her. You can't fuck an incapacitated person and then say it was consenual. It's not. It's rape.

You people are hideously disgusting.

You would ruin a man's life because some woman flirted with him, got drunk and can't even tell what happened??

What a disgusting mentality and culture.

If she was indeed blackout drunk, it was rape. A comatose person cannot give consent, and any responsible adult should know that. It IS a grey area, and some people seem more competent when they are really three sheets to the wind; ... if he was also blackout drunk, he might have been too incapacitated to realize that she wasn't consenting.

However, despite these reservations, I'd take her side. No matter if she had been kissing/flirting with him beforehand, because a responsible adult should also realize that flirting/kissing/heavy petting does not entail consent to sex later. It sounds like she was probably sexually assaulted if the guy's "creepiness" was due to him manipulating her.

Now, should the BF break up with her? It sounds like the relationship is still young and having a problem this early in a relationship is not a good thing. But since he moved so far to be with her, presumably he cares deeply about her and wants to make things work. If he's really creeped out about the thought of her being assaulted by or sleeping with this guy, he should maybe take sex off the table for a while and focus on rebuilding intimacy and trust. If she slips up again, he's well rid of her; if not, they might patch things up.

@73

Way to blame the victim. So I suppose you'd say that because she flirted with him and got tipsy she was asking for it? Based on the information provided, the writer alleges (or says his girlfriend alleges) that the guy was more in control and initiated sex with what amounted to a comatose person. If that is the case, how you call it anything but rape?

@73 - No one is suggesting ruining the creep's wonderful life. Admitting that she was raped in no way affects the creep's life, unless you're one of those folk who think that such an admission MUST be made to the police, as part of an investigation, in order to be valid.

That's part of why the 'you must report it to the police for it to be real' crowd really upsets me. The police aren't going to do anything about it unless it's an open-and-shut case and this one certainly doesn't.

The sad thing is, I think *she* should dump *him*, because he's never going to be able to love and support her like she needs if he's too busy being disgusted. They both need therapy.

By the way, if we take your scenario "some woman flirted with him, got drunk and can't even tell what happened??" and he had sex with her, then that's still rape. It is rape any time consent is not given - not merely when there is a lack of protest.

DTMFA. Stat.

Maybe it's time to step back, take a breath, and not make things worse.

SWMiP's SO needs help, and recrimination and blame won't make things any better. Let's turn things to look at them from the point that a loved one HAS been raped, and what can be done to help them. Maybe SWMiP should find the number of a rape hotline, or some other anonymous source of counciling online, and give it to his SO as a suggestion. He should also encourage her to seek help from her family and friends, presumably back home since she hasn't lived where she is for very long. Finally, he needs to ask her what she needs from him and do his best to try to fulfill her requests and to do his best to not be negative towards her.

Sometimes, when things are the murkiest grey, the best you can do is act like you're strong and try to take the high road forward. Chances are it might seem a waste of effort, but in the long run it will be the easiest to live with. Think of it as an investment in yourself, and as something you can use as a strong point in the future when you need it. SWMiP didn't choose to place himself where he ended up, but he can choose the way out of it.

Peace.

*sigh*

We will never know weather she was actually raped or if she's making it up to cover her ass. The LW will probably never really know either because he wasn't there that night. Unfortunately this is something SHE will have to live with - being raped on Black Friday while Blackout Drunk by a piece of shit predator OR living with the shame of a terrible lie she told that hurt a handful of people. Either way, I feel bad for her because something is fucked up here.

Here's my personal opinion about what the LW should do. (and it won't be popular, I'm sure...) I think he should stay with his girlfriend and see how this plays out. He says he does love her, let's put that love to the test now. Buck up and be there for her during this time of trauma. (if there is indeed any trauma) Excessive drinking patterns, passive-aggressive comments about his commitment to her, flirting with strangers....this kind of behavior needs to stop and she needs to be told (by him, right now..) that those kinds of things are not acceptable if they are going to make this work. Communicate, people...it's time to start acting like adults. It sounds like both of them have some growing up to do, and this is exactly why they were thrown into this type of situation. LW, be the man your girlfriend needs you to be and regardless of what happens in the future for you two, you will be a better person for it in the end. Life is all about how you decide to react to the bullshit from others. This is a test, do the right thing.

It is no fun to live with resentment in a relationship. I can't tell from the story (as Dan can't either) whether it is rape (sex while drunk=rape) or convincing you that she was only cheating a little. But, to me, I'd get out. You have cheating a little, and processing a rape that you may not believe in, and constantly visualizing the process. I think, at your stage in the relationship, that is a lot to ask for. But the heart knows no limits, so rational consideration is beside the point.

Holy shit, this letter/thread really speaks to me. (Except, not. I'm confident that my ex didn't write this.)

We were together for almost three years. Early on, he told me that if I slept with someone else, he didn't care. And so at the two year mark, when he was out of town, I got incredibly drunk, met someone off of CL, and fucked them. And when my SO got back, I didn't tell him. Just like he asked.

Cue to a few months later. He pops the question and I say yes. At this point, I realized I couldn't NOT TELL HIM. The knowledge started to grate at me. I couldn't seriously discuss my future with this man without letting him know about the One Time I Fucked Someone Else.

So I told him. And I'm still grappling with if it was the Worst Decision I ever made, or the Best. Long story short, he dumped me, it got violent, I got a restraining order and moved out.

I had really, completely believed that this man was my soulmate and that we were destined to be together. But instead, I took a gamble on honesty and failed.

(To avoid the obvious: clearly if it got violent then it wasn't going down a good path, and fucking someone else doesn't mean that violence was merited. I also offered to kick drinking in order to stay in the relationship. No go.)

Holy shit, this letter/thread really speaks to me. (Except, not. I'm confident that my ex didn't write this.)

We were together for almost three years. Early on, he told me that if I slept with someone else, he didn't care. And so at the two year mark, when he was out of town, I got incredibly drunk, met someone off of CL, and fucked them. And when my SO got back, I didn't tell him. Just like he asked.

Cue to a few months later. He pops the question and I say yes. At this point, I realized I couldn't NOT TELL HIM. The knowledge started to grate at me. I couldn't seriously discuss my future with this man without letting him know about the One Time I Fucked Someone Else.

So I told him. And I'm still grappling with if it was the Worst Decision I ever made, or the Best. Long story short, he dumped me, it got violent, I got a restraining order and moved out.

I had really, completely believed that this man was my soulmate and that we were destined to be together. But instead, I took a gamble on honesty and failed.

(To avoid the obvious: clearly if it got violent then it wasn't going down a good path, and fucking someone else doesn't mean that violence was merited. I also offered to kick drinking in order to stay in the relationship. No go.)

Ms Cute - Thank you for the appreciation. I think in a minor way it's a sort of variation on the passage in Sense and Sensibility in which Elinor Dashwood agreed with everything Robert Ferrars said because she did not think he deserved the compliment of rational opposition.

@1 is right. This woman should press charges. If she wanted to end it and did make her wishes known, then that's rape. If she wanted to end it and was too incapacitated to be capable of making her wishes known, then that's still rape. The only thing that would make this not rape is if she's exaggerating what happened to the point of lying.

There are few things so scummy as claiming rape when it wasn't so. It discredits anyone who's telling the truth. This woman should either file a police report if she's telling the truth or grow some honorary cajones and own up to her boyfriend that she got drunk and consented to something that she now regrets.

If she's telling the truth she was raped. The writer should help her cope and contact the police, not blame her like a total jerk.

My main points in this post are:
1. Things are not always as black and white as so many posters imply;
2. Not all unwanted sex is rape
3. Moving across the country with a partner, especially when young, does not mean both partners are completely emotionally invested in the relationship.

Why are so many people using such black and white thinking? (*Either she was raped or she wasn't*). There are plenty of scenarios that could have happened that would be called rape by some, but not rape by others. Maybe the guy was equally drunk -- which means he was not in a position to say to himself, "she's drunk, I can't have sex with her"; maybe her "trying to end it" was her saying, "maybe we shouldn't be doing this," rather than "stop, I don't want to do this -- get off me now." If a woman can not be held accountable for her actions when she is completely drunk, why should a man?

I am a woman, and a feminist, and it makes me angry when other women are so quick to label all scenarios in which the woman was not completely into it as rape. They are NOT all the same, and throwing the word rape around so easily takes away from the power of the word, and implies that women are weak and powerless victims. There are plenty of scenarios in which women are manipulated into having sex that they didn't really want to have, that are *not* rape scenarios; as an 18-year-old, I was in a situation like this, and I never told the guy I was with that I didn't want to have sex. The guy was manipulative and an asshole (not just because of this situation -- for other reasons, too), and I felt socially uncomfortable. As a slightly more experienced young person (say, 21, 22), there were times the sex sucked and I was not enjoying myself and wanted it to end quickly, and thought the fastest way to end things comfortably would be for the guy to have an orgasm. I have friends who have told me stories of not wanting to have sex with their boyfriends, but after arguing about it, deciding it is easier to have sex than to continue arguing; they could easily say they tried to end it but couldn't.

We have no idea of the details of this situation; my point is that: plenty of people have sex that they don't really want, but is not rape. The girl herself does not say she was raped -- she says she was taken advantage of. I agree with @27 -- we don't have enough information to call it rape, and since the girl does not classify it that way, why should we?

As for the LW, he could easily have been emotionally uncommitted to the relationship while still deciding it would be fun to move across the country at 24 with his gf -- and the gf could have had complex thoughts in her mind while she was having sex, such as "I don't really want to be doing this, but hopefully it will be over soon... oh well, it's not like my bf really cares that much about me anyway..." Someone can move across the country with a bf/gf, especially when young, without acting as though they are all that into the relationship... when I was 24, I moved across the country with a guy that I considered a friend only, (with occasional benefits) and he had intentions of convincing me to be his gf...

The reason women have a moral obligation to report rape is because most rapists are repeat rapists. It's not that the police will be able to open/close her case, it's that the next girl or guy that comes along and fingers this guy will be taken more seriously and there is a chance of getting him off the street.

Not reporting it creates a safe culture for rapists. No one wants that except rapists. So report, report, report.

Alcohol does not change who you are, many have merely been socialized into thinking it does. Drunken Assholes are always assholes, alcohol merely makes it more clear.

That being said, dump her, either she is falsely accusing someone of rape or she is a cheater, either way, DTMFA.

@56 He doesn't say it explicitly. Because he doesn't think he (or his friends) raped them. But unless he grew up in an alternate universe where young women who admit to being raped are treated well by their peers... I call bullshit on his interpretation of the young women who "took two sips of their beer, claimed intoxication, banged someone, and the next day were born again virgins claiming that it was the alcohol." If they were just horny but didn't want to get a reputation, they could have found a guy with whom to have sex discreetly, without anyone knowing.

If he has encountered an epidemic of women like this: "women are sometimes just fucked up about admitting that they want some dick, and so they try to avoid responsibility for just getting some dick" -- then I think about who is the recurring character here, and that's him. Someone who runs into lots of women who regretted the sex they had is probably someone who isn't careful about checking for enthusiastic consent before and during the sex.

Young women are routinely told to be careful drinking around people they don't know well, because they might "make poor choices." If we live in a universe where women routinely claim (falsely) that they were too drunk to consent (as @41 says), then we should have a lot more public education campaigns warning men never to have sex with intoxicated women. Men should be taught to back away from intoxicated women. Sex with a drunk woman might ruin your life! But that's hardly the message our culture sends to men.

@90, many advocacy centers and specialists for raped women and/or rape prevention and justice have talked and written extensively about why pressuring or obligating rape victims to report their assault to the police is a well-meant but terrible idea that is harmful to victims, their recovery, and the willingness of future victims to get help. Throwing in some kind of false idea of responsibility for future victims is also a really harmful tactic.

@49 No one had disagreed with me yet, since @45 was my first post. If you're referring to some old dispute, well, there are a ton of trolls who post anonymously and I can't keep track of the different posting styles enough to know which ones I've tangled with in the past.

But, ok, I like how @89 lays it out -- "plenty of people have sex that they don't really want." There's a lot of sex that could never be charged as rape, but where one person was not an enthusiastic participant. So, I'll back off from saying that @41 admits to raping people, and just say that it sounds like he knows a lot of women who regretted the sex they had with him or his friends. Color me unimpressed with his cohort's concern for their partners' enthusiastic participation and sexual satisfaction.

"From what it sounds like, he was the most creepy douchebag he could be without actually assaulting or raping her. He knew she had a boyfriend. He knew she was too drunk to make any decisions about anything."

I call that "rape", though I also don't want to label other people's experiences counter to what they assert (if she didn't experience what happened as rape, her own interpretation of her own experience is perfectly valid). The fact that this is seen as perfectly normal, okay, and not-rape by a sizable number of people is an indication of rape culture, a cultural normalization of rape. The degree of rape apologism in our culture is utterly abhorrent (it's at the point where some people try to rationalize/defend the actions of a man who raped young children over many years and the witnesses who covered for him because they like the Penn State athletics program - fucking unbelievable).

Anyway, Dan nails this one.

I say provide support for your girlfriend (who you like at least enough to move across the country to be with) and believe her account. If this turns into a pattern, then there's cause to doubt her, but for now, as you're taking your girlfriend's word that this happened at all (what's her motivation to tell you at all but then lie about the circumstances?), you should also take her word that se was taken-advantage-of/coerced/assaulted/raped (however she wants to frame/process what happened). Too, keep in mind that the widespread idea that this is normal/okay (see all of the comments to that effect) could be motivating your girlfriend to blame herself for the actions of her rapist (this is not uncommon: I shouldn't have dressed slutty, I shouldn't have flirted, I shouldn't have been drunk; none of that is actually consent, of course). At best, the guy's an asshole, at worst, a rapist-asshole; are you really going to side with someone who falls on the spectrum between asshole and rapist over your girlfriend?

@11: Thanks for this. The victim/survivor's health/safety/well-being should be one's primary concern, and while I encourage people to report as a matter of social good, it's ultimately up to the individual in question as to what one feels best about.

@89: "Maybe the guy was equally drunk..." If I get drunk and shoot someone, steal your TV, or smash your car windows, I haven't not committed a crime just because I was drunk. I might not be held legally responsible, or might not get as harsh a sentence if the intoxication is viewed as a mitigating factor, but I still broke the law. I'll grant it's slightly more complicated with sex, but only slightly: if she was harmed/the sex was unwanted/non-consensual (I do believe it's possible to consent under the influence of various drugs, though it's also possible to be incapacitated and incapable of consent; easy rule of thumb is that if there is any doubt, go to sleep and fuck in the morning - if the other person ACTUALLY wanted to fuck last night, that's not gonna change), then he raped her, though it's also possible that she raped him if he was likewise incapable of consent. Legally this is almost impossible to suss out (comes down to he-drunkenly-said, she-drunkenly-said, and the presumption of innocence and slut-shaming both work in the favor of rapists in cases like this), but ethically/philosophically, it's not that difficult.

@82
Sounds like you gambled with honesty and WON.

If you look at it as "losing," doesn't that mean if you had "won," your prize would have been "guy who lies about X behavior being A-OK with him, then feels it is acceptable to get violent with you"?

Not any kind of prize I'D want, there.

... and many prosectors have seen situations where a woman, pressured by family, friends and/or significant others wind up twisting a story beyond all resemblance of reality.

I know it's the easy thing to immediately line up behind the (alleged) rape victim and immediately sanctify every last action she or he takes. But it's also morally wrong. Making a serious allegation like this without investigating things any further is wrong on a number of levels. Assuming she's telling the truth, it allows a rapist to continue raping. It allows a woman to live with those horrible memories without seeking the professional help she will likely need. Assuming she's lying, it destroys a man's reputation without a shred of evidence. He could lose everything just because two blackout drunks made a poor decision in bed and one later came to regret it.

As I repreatedly said, maybe she's so upset that she doesn't yet feel ready to talk to the police. It doesn't sound like she's that emotionally wounded in the story given, but I'm not a mind reader. Assuming she's emotionally destroyed, she should still seek immediate counseling. Based on what this counselor advises, they can build up towards eventually getting the authorities involved.

Of course, sooner would be better than later evidence-wise...

Okay, here is my two cents:

When I was a teenager, went out with a boy and had a beer while we watched the sunset in an empty park . I drank beer all the time at this age, but this one beer made me pass out. (I wonder why) When I woke up he was on top of me, pumping away. This was long before the term 'date rape' was invented - back then it would have been said that 'he took advantage of me'. Was I raped? I didn't think so at the time, but now I look back and think that it was obvious that I was (I was young and didn't want to think of myself as a victim). In any case, it would have been no use reporting it to the authorities as I would have been slut-shamed by the police, the courts, my family etc. That is just the way it was.

Later, in my twenties, I was engaged to this other young man. One afternoon we decided to have sex - I totally agreed to have intercourse with him. Then, once we are naked and in bed, *he* decides he wants anal sex. I say 'no'. He tries to force me. I try to get out of bed. He grabs me and pulls me back into bed. I keep saying 'no' and 'let me go'. He attempts to force his dick into my ass. I squirm away, still saying 'no' and try to get out of bed again. He tackles me and I fall into the dresser, gashing my head wide open. Finally, he stops, shocked at all the blood pouring down my face. When I asked him why he kept trying to force me he said 'Oh, I didn't think you really meant no.' Considering I had totally agreed to have sex with him, and since we had tried anal once before - even though I'd told him I didn't like it - I knew that I would not have been taken seriously by the courts, so again, I didn't report it. Was it attempted rape?

Sure, 7% or 9% of reported rapes end up being false accusations; but what about all the incidences like mine that don't get reported? I honestly don't know if the LW's girlfriend was raped or not - there just isn't enough information. But if the LW can't get over seeing her as damaged goods, then he should dump her for both their sakes.

BTW @15, I totally agree with your comment.

@95: I am not saying that drunk people are not capable of rape.... merely, like you say at the bottom of your last paragraph, that if a drunk man has sex with a drunk woman, and the drunk woman does not make it clear that she is not interested in the sex, she could be held equally responsible for the sex as the man -- maybe he would say he did not really want to have sex with her, but he was drunk, and it happened... (many years ago I knew a girl who liked a guy that did not reciprocate her feelings...but at a party when they were both drunk, she hit on him and he went along with it and they had sex, which he regretted the next day. It was the girl's attempt to get the guy to be with her... I think that situation is just as easily rape as the one described in the orignal letter).... and without more information, we can't call it rape.