... your boyfriend is a jealous, insecure, controlling asshole, ENBS... an asshole with whom you have great sex, great sex this asshole doesn't deserve, at least once a day...
sexist, demeaning, controlling bullshit
what is the difference between "cum" and "come", anyway?
Regarding how many times with the previous partner, here is the line in question:
I swallowed after blowjobs with a guy I was previously in a relationship with, discovered I really don't like it, and haven't wanted to do it since.
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I will walk that DTMFA back a bit. Tell him "look, here's the deal. You're never getting your come swallowed. Do you want a new girlfriend or do you want to never say anything about it again?" But that's more than he probably deserves TBH, since it sounds like you've been pretty firm in the past. But if you've been somewhat trying not to hurt feelings or whatever, go with that. "No, and I'll break up with you if you bring it up again." Maybe that will make him realize what an ass he's been.
One downside to the normalization of porn is that no one seems to tell guys that those women are "acting". Not every single sex act that you have seen a woman "enjoy" in a porn video is actually that enjoyable. Some ladies love cum, in their mouths, stomachs, on their face, hair, etc. But not everyone, and you're not entitled to any sex act that your partner doesn't enjoy. If it's that big of a deal, dump her.
I'm gonna go make someone lick up their own cum now.
Fuck it, DTMFA. This is a strong indicator of a shitty person, and his ugliness will reveal itself more and more over time. Get out now.
I do run to the bathroom and spit, which I think is perfectly fair. Rather than expecting my hubby to give up coffee, garlic, red wine and curry and live on pineapple, it makes more sense to spit and rinse as quickly as possible. I would rather blow him frequently and enthusiastically without having to worry about a hideous experience that's coming my way afterwards.
And she never has to again if she doesn't want to. Don't be such a creep yourself.
DTMFA, he doesn't deserve to mess with your head.
@16: She doesn't just find it "icky". He'd just drink pineapple juice and continue demanding.
I just don't like having come in my mouth. Don't know why - just don't. Condoms rock.
If you like him and want to stay with him, I think you should make him swallow his own come as an apology. Hell, even *try* to swallow his own come.
I say no more sex with mister DoWhatISay until he gets a mouthful of his own come. It's a punishment ("now who's telling whom what to do?") that fits the crime. Otherwise, yeah, DTMFA.
Anyway, in either case I say DTMFA, without even trying to discuss it with him. Guy has serious problems.
Unless he's willing to accept that she's never going to swallow, and understands that his demands were over the line, the letter-writer really should DTMFA.
Love Fnarf's suggestion @20!
I've never figured out why swallowing is so erotic. Mostly just disgusting. She's already disengaged from him, right? I could see maybe it being about so wild over what she's doing to him that she just keeps going right through the whole event and doesn't even slow down. But if it's that they're done and she's ready to stop and spit, what's the difference between that and stopping to not spit?
So glad that Dan exists and is so clear, beer or not :)
Please reinsert the part of the letter that specifies that the LW is female. I'm quite sure I could have written something very like it at one time or another.
Granted, I've retired from the battle of affection, but: Performing orally has always made me cramp. Does this mean that:
a) should I unretire, I ought just to get used to not sleeping or digesting
b) I have no right to be even the tiniest bit annoyed at being called a defective auto
(actually, I'm more amused than anything, but it seems possible)
c) I get to be kicked out of gay again (yes, I have been - don't ask or I'll tell)
d) all of the above?
But now I get to amuse myself (and maybe Ms Cute) and simultaneously fulfill my quota of Heteronormative Remarks for the summer by saying that, even allowing for the erasure of outliers, the standard is still highly valuable if it establishes in opposite-sex relationships a requirement for M on F.
That must be the most heteronormative thing I've said all year. I wonder if it has anything to do with Wimbledon.
The LW's boyfriend sounds like a creep, or at best an insecure immature twerp. If she's not up to the task of smacking some sense into him — and that project is gonna take a lot of smacking — she should DTMFA.
You should totally unretire.
As it happens, I'm shopping for a new car right now, and every time I inquire about standard features, I'm going to have a hard time keeping a straight face.
The boyfriend sounds like a Horrible Jerk of the highest magnitude, and I heartily agree with the chorus of DTMFA, but at the risk of losing my sympathy card, I don't think swallowing is so hard, if you can do it while holding your breath, if need be (you can't taste anything then). Still doesn't solve the problem of an acidic burn, but that's what wine is all about.
I think it is always the blower's preference that should predominate, but I will say that I understand the erotic appeal of the swallow, and generally do (easier to clean up, too, on the practical side of things), unless I want to let it dribble out for effect (some people like seeing their come and also like seeing it come running out. If I don't want to swallow, I'll suggest an alternative earlier in the activities, such as his coming on my breasts or giving me a facial. If the guy is a big carnivore or coffee drinker, I make that suggestion a lot. No one's ever objected, but if someone did, I'd try to find a compromise that worked for both of us. That's clearly not what's happening in this relationship, though.
- Chris Rock
Mr. Ven@39, one could perhaps conclude that if the LW were a guy, there would be some discussion of how the BF deals with swallowing the LW's cum. I don't think that's dispositive, though.
Count me among those who think that swallowing is different with different guys. So I would encourage the LW to try it, if the LW's BF had said - "I understand if you don't want to, but I would love it if you would just try once with me, and would be happy to offer you any or every sexual favor you desire in return..." But that's not what he said.
I do think that when it gets to the point where the LW feels as if he or she is "being ordered to swallow," and it's not consensual D/s, then it's time to walk away.
If current guy wants to stick with his bullshit logic, she dumped her ex- and should do the same for him. Dan's ultimatum is also good, as is most of what he said, although I disagreed with his "And you've swallowed for him too" reading of the letter.
That she should consider the fact that some things don't work with some partners, and that at some point down the line she might want to be open to taking a few more samples, because there may be a guy who's load is a joy to swallow, isn't an attack on her agency or a demand that she actually do anything other than a little cognition.
I will do my best to use your admonishment to not be such a creep as constructively as I can, although I think you might examine what prompted your reaction.
Jealousy and control issues are seriously bad news - this is the stuff domestic abuse is made of. Even if you get past this particular issue with your boyfriend, I suspect there will be another lurking just around the corner. My experiences with men like this have been abysmal. If you don't DTMFA right away, keep your eyes wide open for boundary violations. Lastly, hot sex is awesome, but keep in mind that it is not worth putting your emotional or physical health at risk.
That said, she needs to kick this fucker to the curb. And the next time she meets him in a bar, say, "Guess what? I've rediscovered the joy of swallowing. I guess it was just YOU."
He on the other hand is being the antithesis of GGG by trying to coerce it out of you.
Now, OT, can we please talk about the cum-slut phenomenon? I'm really sick of hearing that enjoying blowjobs makes me or anyone else a cum-slut. Believe it or not, not every sex act has to involve humiliation. I'm sorry your family taught you that sex is filthy and demeaning, and I'm not telling you you can't enjoy whatever it is that gets you off, but I'm not interested in apologizing for the fact that humiliation is like a big pitcher of icewater in my lap. So cut it out.
LW, good job on asserting your boundaries, and whatever you decide to do, don't feel obligated to swallow or have other kinds of sex that you're not OK with. Maybe you are in the midst of learning that sex is something that should be fun for you, and that you're not just there to service your partners whether you are enjoying it, feeling "meh", or about to burst into tears / vomit. I've been there myself and it wasn't an easy process after so many years of passivity. So remember to put yourself first, and take care.
The guy is a controlling douche. Like the others said, DTMFA
"Dear Dan - My wife is super upset with me. She really loves back rubs before bed. I told her I used to that for my ex girlfriends, but honestly, I just don't enjoy doing them anymore. Now she is acting pouty. Should I DTMFA?"
Yes, LW, you are not obligated to do anything in a relationship. But it is really shitty of you to rub in your BFs face an activity you freely did on multiple occasions with an ex, one that your current BF has expressed a desire for. You reap what you sow.
I agree with the point that he is being unreasonable and controlling, but I also think that swallowing isn't that big a deal. Especially if he's returning the favor.
Perfect description; the swallowing issue is a distant second to the way the boyfriend is approaching/dealing with the lack of swallowing. In fact, trying to guilt you into doing something you hate (which you know because you did it before) because you did it before is a little rapey. DTMFA. Fucking run.
The thing is LW has repeatedly swallowed the cum of her ex despite not liking it. She has not swallowed the cum of her current boyfriend a single time. She has been pretty GGG with regards to that aspect but is not anymore so the boyfriend is pretty justified to wander. Though he is not justified to be an ass about it.
I wonder, too, if the refusal to even try with the current bf is created in whole or in part by his assholish conduct around demanding it.
Normally, "I did X with old lover but won't with you" is a horrible thing to hear, no matter how reasoned and reasonable and defensible the position. (Do you remember that woman on Dan's podcast many moons ago who was on the verge of telling her bf that her previous bfs got MFF threesomes with her but he wouldn't because she wuuuvved him sooooo much? That.) But in this case it's hard to see why the bf should get any benefit of the doubt or cut any slack for his fee-fees; his conduct simply doesn't merit it.
Having said that, I also swallow. I take a big breath before he comes and swallow immediately, followed with a sip of wine immediately after, to get rid of the taste. I don't even take in another breath until after you sip the wine. Come is nasty stuff, but I find that trying to spit it out just leaves that awful taste in my mouth, whereas swallowing eliminates the taste faster.
But Gamebird @25 should just keep spitting - once you associate the taste of come with vomiting I doubt if any tricks will help.
And to everyone complaining about the taste of cum, I'd like to point out that your taste buds are located on the back of your tongue, not the back of your throat. If you're taking in the cock deeply enough at the moment of truth, you shouldn't be able to taste anything.
Nibble on fruits and vegies throughout the day, and your cum, too, may taste like honey.
(And what is the difference between "cum" and "come", anyway?)
For me, I am pretty much ok with spitting, swallowing, tossing it in the sink, putting it in a rocket, whatever. The only thing I really stand firm on is that the sperm absolutely must go away. There are all sorts of things someone can do with another person's sperm. I would really rather not have any of them done to me.
It sounds like you found a way that works for you. I used have the same association thanks to a terrible ex-boyfriend. Eventually I disassociated blow jobs from vomit, and could toss the condoms. But, I had to, with consent, completely dominate him. A nip of whisky to follow helped with the taste. Restraints aren't required anymore, but they still have their use.
Anyway, congratulations on your strength and generous spirit.
I can't imagine saying something like, "Yeah I used to eat Sally-Jo-Daisy's cunt (without the dental dam I now insist upon in our fluid-bonded relationship), all the time, and it was gross, so I'm never going to do that for you ..." and thinking there was nothing hurtful about the way I was presenting it.
Anyway, +1 for everyone who says she should probably get rid of him.
I don't think anybody's saying that it is, it's just ancillary to the glaring problem in their relationship and with her manbaby partner.
Some guys need to lend a hand when they're close to coming; that means that my mouth is only on the head (and getting rammed by his fist, I might mention, though I'm a masochist and I like that). You're not wrong about the topography, but I just wanted to point out that "deeply enough" makes it sound like there is one correct way to finish a blow job.
@58 "there are lots of different blowjobs, and some of them aren't over just because someone came."
Unless back rubs make you want to barf (or other literal physical discomfort), that's not a fair counterexample. A backrub doesn't cost you personally the way that swallowing does.
That said, I agree that it was really dumb -- not necessarily malicious/power grab/et cetera, but definitely dumb -- to let it be known that you used to do this for the previous partner as a matter of routine, but refuse to do it for the current partner. It makes it look like either a) it wasn't really as bad at the time as you are letting on now, in which case why the line in the sand now? or b) it makes one wonder if maybe you don't feel as strongly about current partner as you did about previous partner.
I wouldn't blame the boyfriend for gently raising either of the two interpretations above, given the information he got. I do blame him severely if he actually put it as "he expects me to do it now just because I did it before, whether or not I like it."
Exactly its all about presentation of the preference, and not the preference itself. The way it sounds (especially if it was routine and not just a few times) is almost like "I was willing and able to ignore my discomfort for this other guy, but not for you." Her comfort should of course be paramount to her boyfriend (so he shouldn't want her to do it) and makes his response inexcusable, but it could still certainly have been hurtful to this guy to hear that she was she was so enamored by this previous guy that she was willing to do something that was repulsive to her, or that she now isn't willing to accept the slightest discomfort.
While I agree that this guy is ultimately an asshat. While she has come to the conclusion that she dislikes swallowing, the experience couldn't have been so terrible and was perhaps slightly innocuous to her since she was able to carry out the act previously. So, I don't think she was being entirely GGG either by insisting that she won't and will never do it for this guy. Being GGG doesn't mean only doing the things that you're 100% comfortable with all the time. Being GGG doesn't mean permanently closing the door on something that you're uncomfortable with.
I swallowed after blowjobs with a guy I was previously in a relationship with, discovered I really don't like it, and haven't wanted to do it since.
I read the plural as she tried, and when she didn't like it the first time tried a few more times, and it didn't get better. She wasn't ready, it was Tuesday, maybe if she held her head differently, and so on until it was clear that, no, she really didn't like it. And if he asked why she didn't swallow, explaining she's tried it while not invoking "I've tried it, meaning I tried it with someone who wasn't you" is impossible.
The way I've heard it put before is that focusing on the orgasm, and seeing it as a finish line, just devalues all sexual acts that don't lead to orgasm.
But seriously, ladies, can we stop saying nasty things about the taste/texture/smell of cum? It's just uncalled for - and we certainly wouldn't put up with anyone talking shit about our sexual fluids without calling misogyny. (Hell, Dan's STILL catching flack for the "canned ham" analogy, and he's gay and understandably squicky about pussy.) Sexual fluids have strong odors and pungent tastes. We like the scent & taste of some, and not others. Unilaterally shouting "ICKY!" is just immature.
You sound like a total asshole. Your personal issues and selfishness mirror the boyfriend's, but don't reflect reality, and they don't fucking matter. She doesn't want to do it and none of your tone trolling changes this. She doesn't need to explain why she doesn't want to perform a sex act. She needs to say no and not have some manchild stomping his feet about why her reason isn't good enough.
I agree that trying implies trying with someone else, but the distinction I was making was between "trying a few times" and "doing as standard protocol"
"I swallowed after blowjobs" is a declarative statement that suggests pattern and routine, and intrinsically links blowjobs and swallowing through the duration of this previous relationship. The statement wasn't a qualified in a way such as "I tried swallowing" or "I swallowed after blowjobs a few times." The one qualifier that was given was "with a guy I was previously in a relationship with" so my assumption was that occurred for the duration of the relationship.
Its all dissecting her word choice and I have no real idea what the LW intended, I was just trying to present an alternative scenario with the limited info given.
I never once excused the guy's behavior and never suggested that she should do it just because.
All I was trying to point out was that the way she may have presented the scenario may have come across badly. People will accidentally hurt/offend people in relationships in minor ways. How that person reacts to a minor offence tells a lot about person - and I can that this guy is a douche. Just because the guy flipped out doesn't mean she can't learn how to better broach the topic in future.
That line can easily and honestly be interpreted as meaning either she stopped when she was with that previous bf, or after she stopped seeing him. The difference between the two interpretations go a long way to explaining different people's reactions. (Though there seems to be appropriate unanimity on the dickishness of the current bf.) It's one thing to have been GGG with somebody else long enough to discover that you hate something, it's another to have made a habit of it with one person then refusing it to another. Not from a rights point of view, because she can or can't do WTF she wants. But from a perception point of view.
The thing that isn't resolved is whether or not she has tried the current bf's cum. As the singing cynic noted above, different people have very different tasting fluids: some verging on ambrosial, others verging on caustic.
As to whether it's a reasonable request to ask someone once or twice...yes, it is. And sometimes people decide to do things for their partner they don't particularly like simply to please the other person. That's actually part of a healthy relationship. But you never dictate to your partner what they will and will not do, sexually, unless you are prepared for that person to say "no" and break up with your manipulating ass.
The version in which a commenter puts into GGG all the things they are okay with, and out of GGG all the things they are not okay with, for everybody else regardless of history and actual, you know, likes and dislikes and hard lines, is also pretty damn annoying.
It's an attitude. Comprised of being open to things your partner would like and respectful of things they are not okay with. You don't get to ditch the second half.
I'm more more curious about the "oral standard" (better than the gold standard!)... Does the blowjob standard include coming into his/her mouth or is it just about being brought to the point of ejaculation and then the coming can be any ol' where? Is expecting to get to come in their mouth unreasonable? Or from the other side, is it unreasonable to not want a full load of come shot into your mouth? Is there a consensus opinion about where the oral standard line is drawn on this?
The idea is that oral "comes standard" when getting into a relationship. Meaning you should assume that your partner strongly desires for oral sex to be a regular part of the relationship and if you disagree with that it's up to YOU to offer dissent and not up to THEM to ask for it. If neither of you want it, that's fine, and you can come to an agreement.
Kind of like how we all assume that sex in general comes standard. If you started a relationship with someone and then, a month in, they expressed their disgust for any form of sex, you would feel a bit cheated, and rightly so.
Swallowing doesn't come standard, though. It's up for discussion.
A) Swallowing cum is not at all like tasting vaginal juices. One happens AFTER the orgasm, one happens before.
B) Being icked out over cum is not the same as being icked out by the taste of vagina. In one, you happily suck cock and don't like what happens after, in the other, you don't like ANY part of the act.
C) Why are we assuming she told him she swallowed for a boyfriend? This kind of control freak is probably the same type that would insist on details and numbers of previous partners. Unless she's entirely stupid, it's unlikely she said 'Nyah, nyah, he got to but YOU don't'. Also, it doesn't take a mental giant to figure out that when someone says they don't like something, that it just might be because they tried it before.
D) You're allowed to stop enjoying something sexual at any fucking time. Sexualities change, preferences change, bodies change, partners change. If men start deciding that doing it once means never getting to stop, women will stop trying ANYTHING new, ever. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face!
E) Echoing others, it could be the most amazing feeling ever, but if my partner hates it, I don't want him to do it. The kind of person that places no value on their partners enjoyment is the kind of rapey asshole that shouldn't have a partner. Gross.
A) The point Dan has made repeatedly is that eating pussy with any enthusiasm involves swallowing vaginal juices, probably in as much total volume as the average load of semen.
B) in that the majority of the moisture comes at the end when you're giving a guy head and flows steadily when you're give a woman head, you are correct: they are not the same. But if you really hated cum, you would, presumably, have a problem with precum, too, although probably not in the same degree. Depends on the guy, of course.
C) She strongly implies it.
D) No one disagrees with you, although maybe not with your implication that only men suggest new and/or challenging sex acts.
E) Once again, no one disagrees with you.
This thread follows a fairly common pattern here: A broad consensus is established (boyfriend is a dick and probably deserves dumping), then we start speculating based on the finer details of the letter, pondering other possibilities. Then a new person comes in and, shocked (SHOCKED!) that everyone has missed the obvious point, lays down a furious, self-righteous scorched-Earth flame on the whole operation, giving everyone a big sad, or a giggle, depending on their mood.
Maybe she did it routinely with this previous bf. Maybe she just tried it several times. Maybe they didn't often have oral sex, but she swallowed each time and ultimately came to the conclusion that she wasn't going to keep doing it around the time they were breaking up. Regardless of how often she did or didn't do it with the ex, she discovered that she doesn't like it, and she has no obligation to swallow with her current bf just to soothe his irrational jealousy.
I see no indication that he's never come in her mouth at all. If so, I would think that would be part of the focus of the letter ("He wants to come in my mouth *and* have me swallow, but I don't like the taste/feel of come, etc.") I would suggest to the LW that, if her current bf's come seems bit different than her ex's (in taste, texture, etc.) she might well have a different experience with him. (I have no problem with my bf's come, but previous men were not always so tolerable.) But if it's the same old, same old, well... she's tried that, and it's not going to be different with him.
And no, I see no reason to give in even once if you *know* it's not going to be different. If she hasn't tasted his come at all--yes, give it a try. If she has, that's all she needs to know.
I agree with @84 on this one.
I don't think we're disagreeing, mostly. My point was that you can't eat pussy without swallowing juices. You can blow someone without swallowing cum. 68 made the argument that spitting out cum is tantamount to spitting out pussy juice all whilst eating pussy. One interferes with enjoyment throughout, one just AFTER partner has already had their orgasm.
I fail to see that she strongly implied she told him about the ex with no prompting. I see that as her explanation about why she doesn't like it us readers and to Dan. We can't know.
Your presumption regarding precum doesn't fly with me. While I personally don't have an issue swallowing either, cum is a whole lot more quantity, tastes different and has a different texture.
As far as E - a few people seem to think it's no big deal, and she should just do it. Why? She's not denying him anything a reasonable person can't live without. If she was denying him any sex at all, that'd be a different story
Being icked out by pussy means no eating pussy, or having to fake enjoying it. Giving head is two parts: pre-orgasm and post (unless it's just for fun.) You can love sucking dick and hate swallowing cum. I think it's kind of whiny to care what she does with your cum after you already get off. Whereas caring that someone is not enjoying eating your pussy the whole time is totally not the same.