@96, your reading comprehension skills are weak. You have misread the feedback to me and my arguments. I have not once advocated for men harassing women on the street. Also, I have lived for years in both Seattle and New York, and can give an opinion comparing the two. I counsel many people on many subjects every day professionally, and I don't have to be each and every one of them to be able to do that. Your expertise seems to be hair so maybe stick to that area.

@100, no, it's not an American thing. British men do it just as much. It's a controlling douche thing, and you find them everywhere.

@ 103, you're a professional counsellor? Heaven help us.

It always pisses me off when I'm told to smile. Strangers are just creepy when they do it, and are almost always men over 50.

"I am smiling," I'll say. "This is my smile."

Later, when the anger subsides, I'll feel embarrassed for being a misanthrope. I'll remember that your expression can affect your mood, that smiling, even if you don't mean it, will literally improve how you feel, that rage is bad for you. Then I consider smiling, but only after making sure that the offender can't see me. "There's no way I'll give that fucker the satisfaction," I think.

@105, coming from a pompous ass who thinks he knows everything. Your two cents is worth exactly that.

@ 108, not everything, but topics of our mutual appreciation? No doubt I do know more than you. This thread has illustrated that on one such topic perfectly.

@105, coming from a pompous ass who thinks he knows everything. Your two cents is worth exactly that.

@ 110 roflmaopimp....

@biffp, I can see why you're a professional counselor. Your comments display a dazzling degree of conceptual and emotional understanding, and an ability to read or listen far exceeding those whose expertise lies elsewhere in fields such as hair. If only everyone could be so self-aware.

When I was young and living and working in Boston I got told to smile all the time, and ONLY by men. Women NEVER told me to smile. Nor do I know of a single woman who ever told a guy - a complete stranger to her - to smile. There's something to that, folks.

Men also commented on my tits - right out loud - my looks generally - negative and positive cracks right to my face, even at work (I was a cashier at a drug store), and like most women, I got cat-called when walking in front of the groups of men such as the motherfuckers at the fire station in Copley Square, on a frequent basis. I was fucking 19 yrs old, crippingly insecure and being routinely degraded and humiliated by these men who undoubtedly had daughters my age. Still makes me angry.

Guys on this thread: have women, complete strangers in public, ever treated you like this? Over and over? Ever? If not, try and imagine it happening, on a frequent basis, to your sister, daughter, girlfriend, wife, mother, aunt, neice, female friend, whatever. Just because you don't experience it - just as if you're a white male and don't experience racism - doesn't mean it's trivial and to be dismissed.

And before anyone says, in classic victim-blaming mode, 'well why did you keep walking in front of the fire station, then?', for anyone who knows Boston, the station was at the end of very busy Boylston Street, up by Mass Ave, and that part of Boylston had no sidewalk on the other side of the road. The drug store I worked at was a few blocks down Boylston, on the same side of the road as the fire station, so the only logical/safe place was to walk on the sidewalk in front of the firestation.
And yet at some point, solely due to the firemen, I ended up taking another, longer route to work, even though this one was the quickest, best way.

Seattle: where this sorta thing wracks up 115 comments ON THE INNERNET

@114 The fact that you feel the need to justify your reactions to others' (men's) actions says everything. When you consider this, along with the following, in the oh-so logical advice of rape prevention AKA how to prevent your own rape, it becomes clear that the actions and lengths women take to avoid street harassment can place them in higher risk environments than the one they are trying to avoid in order to prevent their own rape in the first place:

"And yet at some point, solely due to the firemen, I ended up taking another, longer route to work, even though this one was the quickest, best way."

http://www.stopstreetharassment.org/2012…

And no, street harassment isn't isolated to the US, it is a universal problem (as is misogyny in general). Commanding a strange woman or girl to smile is street harassment lite. See above, Femme de la rue: "college student Sofie Peeters decided to focus her thesis on sexism in the streets of Brussels (AKA street harassment) and created a documentary about it."

If you think my or other women's experiences with street harassment are trival, if you think I am just "an angry type" looking for a reason to unnecessarily raise my cortisol levels, or if you begin any reaction to Megan's post with, "I'm a guy BUT," followed by any iteration of, "this doesn't seem like that big a deal," just...stop. Stop.

I refered to a "perpetual anger type" dear, not an "angry type". There is quite a difference, when you think about it. At least one hopes so.

I got so weary of this type of random command from creepy strangers, that when a very polite elderly man smiled at me and said "You're very beautiful", my immediate reaction was to angrily tell him to fuck off. :-(

Catalina, ordinarily I so greatly enjoy your comments and general presence that it makes me quite sad that you are suggesting many of our experiences are invalid.

115 - "UberAlles": Exactly - it's the internet, meaning, none of us commenters need be IN Seattle. I'm clear across the country, myself. Some of the people here live in other countries, even. Ie, try and get it in your tiny mind that this 'smile, honey' bullshit is universally experienced by women.

And while ignorant folks (ie those who don't have any experience with this, ever) may think it's funny and trivial - "What's the big deal?! You got told to smile! Who gives a shit?" it is a microcosm of how women are treated by men on the streets every day, all over the world. The main message being, that we are on male territory. My tax dollars pay for the sidewalks just as much as yours, but it ain't my territory.

@femwanderluster 116

I'm not denying the worldwide extent of street harassment. It is indeed global, and I have endured my fair share of it where I live, mostly in my youth. As for misoginy, it's not been limited to my youth, and I fight it everytime I see it rear its ugly phrases.

I feel quite sympathetic to people who are more vocal than me on those issues, like you.

But street harassment took other forms where I've lived. I have not encountered this "smile, you'll be prettier" routine from strangers in France, nor in Germany. Catcalls yes, climb-in-my-car yes, honking-cars yes. This "smile" thing no, not from strangers - abusive assholes in my own family did use it on me sometimes, so I do know how it feels.

So, I'll rephrase my comment : outside of the USA and the UK (thanks #104), are there other places where the "smile" harassment form is a daily/weekly occurence ?

(I'd like to know too whether male strangers trying to touch and to fondle females exists outside of Northern Africa streets, and of the Indian and Japanese public transportation - in another thread maybe)

Leek dear, quite to the contrary. I do understand that this sort of thing is harassment, and that it gets old over time. It's just that when the "Fuck Yous" and concepts like the "cunt humans" vs. the "cock humans" start flying about, there's no way to have a reasonable conversation about what is, essentially, a human interaction.

Society is full of boorish people who do offensive things. If you let their behavior influence you, it can at the least ruin your day and at the worst drive you crazy. Why let them do that?

Some of the comments here remind me of my ex's mother. Whenever something unpleasant happened, she would say, as if it were soothing, "Oh well, never mind". It always made me angrier than the thing I was mad about in the first place. I did mind, and being told it was no big deal (to her) was not helpful.

@121

"So, I'll rephrase my comment : outside of the USA and the UK (thanks #104), are there other places where the "smile" harassment form is a daily/weekly occurence ?"

Does it matter? It used to happen to me in South Africa...and the point is?

Being told to smile is one of the more benevolent forms of street harassment. If I had to choose(!puke!) between men commanding to me smile or men "trying to touch and to fondle" me, I'd much prefer the verbal intimidation to the physical violation. Of course, it would be great if women could just go about their business without worrying if every guy on the street is a potential threat, but as mentioned upthread:
(@120) "we are on male territory."

If you are further interested in the manifestations of street harassment in different parts of the world, you'll get a better understanding if you check out:

"Hollaback! is a photoblog and grassroots initiative to raise awareness about and combat street harassment by posting photographs and narrative accounts of individuals' encounters with offenders. Altogether, Hollaback! is run by local activists in 50 cities, 17 countries, and operates in 9 languages."

http://www.ihollaback.org/

The problem is not geography but the pervasive-as-fuck idea that women exist for men.

"Wa wa wa, wa wa, here let me fap that for you! Then pat me on the head and give me a cookie!"

Ugh, Catalina.

"There's no way to have a reasonable conversation about what is, essentially, a human interaction" when the discussion participants deny the very basis for the discussion in the first place: not the nondescript "human interaction" but the problem of men harassing women.

"Society is full of boorish people who do offensive things. If you let their behavior influence you, it can at the least ruin your day and at the worst drive you crazy. Why let them do that?"

Indeed! Why do women LET people -scratch that- MEN harass them? We should know by now that we are responsible, not only for others' actions, but for policing our reactions to those actions in order to cause the least amount trouble for us -scratch that- for men.

You've done your part, Catalina. Here's your cookie.

If you want to see someone smile, give them something to smile about or fuck off.

And while we're on the topic, if you tell a child he/she should smile more, (especially if you're a teacher), go fuck yourself.

@124 No point other than I'm a human, and what happens to other humans is my business too. Like Terence said (the latin play writer).

Thanks for the link.

Today I watched a good Italian movie for kids, "La gabbianella e il gatto", made in 1998. There were a grand total of 4 female characters (3 animals and a human) in the whole movie. The other 10+ animals and humans were all male.

I made that remark to my kids, that 50% of all species are female.

It's clearly rude to order people to smile. No two ways about it. I used to get a lot of that crap when I was young. No idea the motivation, but whatever the meaning, it's misguided behavior. We didn't have internet blogs like these in the early 90s so I couldn't google this experience and I thought it was just me and was really creeped out by it.

Now, however, if it were to happen, I'd have fun with it. Saying things like "Huhn? What did you say? I can't hear you. You want to say that louder? " and then just walk away giving him a puzzled look like he was a really odd duck. Or scowling and obvious fake exagerrated scowl and saying "What's that you say now?" waving my fists or something. Or many, many other possible fun responses.

Obviously it's a judgment call and you have to determine a) if you feel safe enough in the situation to be a little provocative and b) if it fits your own style/sense of humor. The behavior is clearly passive aggressive and puts you in a double bind: if you comply, you are allowing them control, and if you become angry at the effort to control, they can pretend you confirmed their observation that something is wrong and they had a right to address it. So the two things to never do is never be overtly angry, and never actually smile. Puzzlement, shock and goofy fake joking anger but without a smile are best.

I haven't had repeat offenders in years, but then, I'm middle aged now (tho mistaken for younger... and luckily, with the years, get fewer and fewer comments on that too, that's another story.)

The point is, this street harassment is wrong and annoying, yes, but it's important not to internalize it or give it too much power. If there is a way to make the offender feel foolish and uncomfortable, go for it, but showing anger just sends them into ways to rationalize themselves and put you down, and learn nothing, as you see from the comments here.

Come to think of it, back in the day I mostly walked away in silence, avoided eye contact, or sometimes looked at the bozo like he was an odd duck. Difference is then I was more upset by it as if it had something to do with ME, whereas I now realize I am not the cause of the misguided and inappropriate behavior of strangers on the street. They are responsible for their own behavior, and once I was clear on that, it didn't bother me as much. I don't care for it, but am less upset by it.

My goodness, I hope I never reach the point where a simple compliment from a stranger brings anything but a little happiness into my day.

Late to the thread, but Megan, I got your back. If you are a man commenting on this thread with anything remotely resembling "Why So Serious?", you need to sit the fuck down, shut the fuck up, and go the fuck away, because you don't get it and you never will.

@130

So, if some random stranger on the street told you to "go wash yourself in order to smell better", that would bring a little hapiness into your day ?

It being as much of a compliment as "smile in order to be prettier" ?

You're a very strange person.

well...i've been told by strange women...ummm.. women whom i don't know, to smile and i found it creepy. so there i'm on the megan side of things here. if you smile at someone and they don't return the gesture, i've assumed that they got shit going on that ain't my beeswhacks and i keep steppin. it feels like a control issue ummm cause it mostly is. and i smile a LOT. of course, i have the happy gene and i can't help it

I'd support a referendum that made it OK to stab people for telling strangers to smile.

(I'd like to know too whether male strangers trying to touch and to fondle females exists outside of Northern Africa streets, and of the Indian and Japanese public transportation)

Are you serious? It happens everywhere, even the US.

This post bears repeating:

It is creepy, intrusive, and sexist. Period. Women do not exist to smile for men. Women's faces are not "wasted" if they are perceived as "pretty" but unsmiling. Other people do not exist to smile at me, and I do not exist to tell them how their faces ought to look. That guy deserved a hearty slap, but you were wise to simply not react and not interact. I HATE to be told to smile. Even by a loved one. It's no one's business what my mouth and cheeks are doing.

I smiled at everyone I passed on my walk today. All but one of them smiled back; the one who didn't, appeared to be deep in thought so I give her a free pass. Conclusion: if you want people to smile, you smile at them first. Most people are happy to smile when it's a reciprocal and voluntary arrangement.

I am totally in favor of #134's idea. Stab them, or knee them in the groin. I like options.

Jesus fuck, it's not a compliment, it's a criticism. It's a way of saying, "You are insufficiently pleasing to me the way you are and therefore you should do something to fix it."

Telling a person (ok it is predominatnly women who are gifted this friendly advice) is akin to telling an angry person to calm down. The results are that the person neither smiles nor calms and hates you just a little bit more.

@132: I like the comparison to washing. I'm going to add that to my toolkit for future discussions with people.

#141 I call BS. You were doing no such thing and no such woman ever existed.

@130 what is it about this that you perceive as a compliment? Werid!

@142 I believe 141. Men are once in awhile targeted by this sort of thing, by men and by women, and women are targeted occasionally by women. It is overwhelmingly male to female, but not exclusively.

Is it truly unclear to anyone though, that randomly instructing a stranger to smile is nosy and bossy? Is there anything hard to understand about that? I used the simplest words I could think of.

Curious though, what those smile commanders are really thinking and the response they truly expect. Do they really think the person is going to smile happily at them? Or do they know they are being asses and are trying to provoke? In any case, any such men (or occasional smile commander women) who see this blog should be doing a facepalm right now and saying "Oh my GOSH I've been stupid, I'm not telling strangers to smile again! My bad!" People don't learn that fast though, they tend to rationalize and project, but we can dream. Lol.

I am a woman who lives in New York, and I can assure you that we hate that "smile" shit on this coast as well. With a fiery passion.

It is REALLY annoying when a man tells me that. Smiling is a personal issue. Everyone is entitled to have a bad day and not smile. When a guy tells me that and it's someone I'm not attracted to, I say, "I'm not smiling because I see you". If he's hitting on me, he'll really get the hint that I'm not into him and leave me alone, so THERE! :p