Comments

106
@ 101, if your posts lack neutral tone, why are you apparently offended when your replies aren't neutral, as evinced by your gratitude for @ 92?
107
103: I'm not an ally, this affects me personally.
108
@raku so allys need head any opinion as law, but you can ignore anyone who doesn't see eye to eye withe your world view?
109
104- It's so bizarre, white dudes' inability to listen. I didn't say anything about any performance or any mass marriage deal at the Grammy's. I have no idea what you think people are criticizing about it. I have no opinion on the Grammys mass wedding, I'm sure it was nice.
110
@ 107, you're white, aren't you?
111
raku, have you ever considered the possibility that posting impotent rants on Tumblr and desperately searching for trivial things to bitch about is NOT an actual form of social activism?
112
Full disclosure: I'm not a Macklemore fan. Personally I think he's corny as fuck. But goddamn this whole argument is some sophomore Comparative History of Ideas shit. Music may well be an equalizing space but the Grammys sure as fuck aren't - it's a masturbatory Colosseum for the Recording Industry, and yeah: in a perfect world Kendrick would have gotten that award. Kendrick also spits some despicable shit - rap is full of contradictions. It's heart is the conflict between speaking to the circumstances of oppression (drugs, violence, poverty, community) and protesting it.

Macklemore certainly benefited from the institutional racism of the National Academy of Recording Artists (and the relative cachet of gay culture in Hollywood), but hip hop as a genre and a culture is universally accessible. Hence its popularity.

So is the issue that Macklemore is a white man rapping? That's he's a straight man rapping about being gay? That whiteness gives him access to the fruits of the industry? How about: why do we value licking that brass ring to begin with? Or maybe: are any of these things more noxious than the usual 3-ring Bullshit Circus that is top40 rap?

Basically: fuck the Grammys - they are the heart of corniness, and corniness is the antipathy of hip hop. While you're at it: fuck identity politics. All it accomplishes is internecine academic bullshit and self-defeat in the pursuit of ideological purity. If you actually devote any crumb of emotional or intellectual significance to this shit you are worse than a sponge, you are an obstacle to real progress.
113
@109, I listen extremely well. When everyone consistently gets you wrong, over and over, maybe it's you who doesn't know how to talk.

So what is your beef? Macklemore's Grammy was a human rights crime abetted by the forces of white power? Because that's bullshit. Jay-Z and his wife Beyonce are much, much bigger stars than Macklemore, and he won two the other night, and they have 36 between them. The bias you claim simply does not exist in this arena. Macklemore's whiteness is not a trend; if anything the trend is moving the other way and has been for a decade or more.

Part of the reason for that is you don't know anything at all about the Grammys in general or "Rap Song of the Year" in particular.

If your contention is that black-only music like hip-hop belongs to black people and black people only, and white people doing it amounts to offensive appropriation, you're crazy. White people doing black music and vice versa should be encouraged, not decried (especially if they can open up to some brown music as well). Musical miscegenation is the source of everything good and interesting about American music, and has been for 150 years.

Your argument is stupid, and if it's being made by "black queers on Tumblr" it's still stupid, and it's smart to put it down, even if it hurts their feelings, because stupid arguments make racial justice harder, not easier, and gay rights harder, not easier. If you had a little more elasticity in your rigid understanding of the world, you'd see that.
114
White dude to white dude, Fnarf: I love you. No homo.

Oh, and my post said nothing about black queers yelling at Macklemore about his right to do rap music, a genre I loathe. (But, hey, I loathe rock and roll and new wave and electronica and disco and dance music and basically everything that has happened to popular music since Vicki Carr released Vikki! in 1968.) I was talking about queer people yelling at him for daring to do a song in which he talked about same-sex marriage. Most of whom were white queers. Some of whom were straight "allies."

Over and out.
115
There's a Silicon-valley based episode on CNN's "Black in America" series where a group of black entrepreneurs try to get some startup companies going, and they're advised by a Silicon valley insider to put a white guy as the 'face'. They're shocked and disappointed, and a bit angry as well.

I think it's the same kind of anger that we're seeing. It's the realization that no matter how talented queer people are, they'll be valued less than a straight person. Even for the fiercest ally, a romantic song containing pronouns of the same gender as the singer's will be less appealing than a song with opposite gendered pronouns. Mary Lambert's song "She Keeps Me Warm" unfortunately will never make as much money as Macklemore 'Same Love'.

I think it's understandable that some people vent in frustration when they are reminded that the game is rigged against them, and that the majority group always gets the final say.
116
Raku is the vegan right?

Has to be a troll account. No way they push this many buttons so easily.
117
@19: Oh yeah, the Tumblr trans-community REALLY hates him with a passion.
119
114: I follow a lot of tumblr "social justice warriors" and haven't seen any white gay people complaining about Macklemore talking about gay marriage. All of the complaints I've seen about Macklemore are from people of color, queer or not (and their ALLIES who are amplifying their voices). The complaints are because another white guy getting ridiculous amounts of praise, success, and voice in society for doing something that rappers of color have been doing very well for years, in an art form that people of color invented and nourished for decades. It's pretty much dictionary-definition unjust. Maybe be more specific next time. I have no feelings whatsoever about white infighting, and wasn't aware it existed regarding Macklemore.

111: If these issues are trivial to you, then just fucking change your behavior so that you can support people it's not trivial to. It's absolutely infuriating that social justice issues are trivialized and ignored by people they mean nothing to.

110: No I'm not, but I don't like answering personal q's on here, it does not feel like a safe space.

Fnarf: You're either a frighteningly serious pro at gaslighting or you type paragraphs before you read a single word. I had to re-read my comments twice to make sure I didn't say things you're inferring that I said. I have no idea what you're arguing against. White people can rap, that's clearly fine, as I said in both my first and second posts in this thread. Grammy's are a sideshow, I only mentioned them after others did as an example of Macklemore's success. I'm talking about all of culture, as is this post. I guess you win, I agree I "don't know anything about the Grammy's at all" - whatever point that is supposed to make.
120
110: I think I gave that impression because my old slog pic was a white woman. I just googled something like "annoying judgmental queer vegan" and put that photo up. I'm very self-aware. :)
121
Oh man, I am so happy to hear this! I'd like to consider myself an ally, but honestly I feel so paralysed that I'm afraid I'm not a very good one. If I speak up for rights, maybe it's condescending, as if I'm implying Alphabet Smoosh people are too weak and victimised to stand up for themselves. If I don't speak up, I'm failing to use my privilege for good. If I ask someone what they think I should do then I'm asking an individual or group of individuals to speak for an entire community, but if I don't ask then I'm failing to listen. So I just don't know how to be of service! But if it's okay to use my priviledge for good, and if it's okay if it's just plain impossible to do it perfectly, then I feel I can step up. I'm less afraid of offending the very people I want to be of use to.
122
@116 - totally agree. Troll. Just too much the Fox ideal of a social justice activist. Fnarf - you had it right at the start - Double agent!

I for one knew it was coming, knew it was corny - and still cried with a huge smile watching that mass marriage. Macklemore rocks. The future is here. We ALL get to help keep it moving towards justice.
123
Ugh, give me a break. What am I trolling about? I even fucking agree with your hero Macklemore 100%. Even he thinks he doesn't deserve all this adoration in society, he agrees that there are better black artists who deserve more attention than him, and he agrees the only reason that he's so wealthy and exalted is because he's a white dude.

http://gawker.com/macklemore-i-wouldnt-h…
http://jezebel.com/no-one-thinks-macklem…

It's clearly not the message you're attacking, it's the messenger.
124


"And as for the critics, tell me I don’t get it. Everybody can tell you how to do it, they never did it." - Jay-Z
125
I think I'd vaguely heard of the song, though not of the performer or the person making the clip (and who the flip is she that Mr Savage should name her so often? She reminded me of what someone once said about Mrs King liking to talk faster than anybody else, louder than anybody else and longer than anybody else).

I remember once or twice such things as someone from the trenches about to pick up a nice distinction (Pride marshal on occasion) only to be bumped for a Johnny-Come-Out-Lately who'd been luxuriating in straight privilege. And I remember a discussion far too serious to give the old LMB because it really did make one want to about how non-heterosexual publications just sold so much better with Pure Kinsey Zero cover people than with real live breathing non-heterosexuals. This I don't put anywhere near either of those. At any rate, he doesn't seem to be the kind of ally who wants to be given cookies all the time, and a positive someone getting fame or riches when we're the topic isn't all that bad if it's bad at all.
126
Oh, don't even get me fucking started on this. Remember the Tumblr page to thank our straight friends and allies for helping campaign for gay rights? I can't even tell you how many nasty and downright horrible comments I got on the photo of my boyfriend and our sweet, amazing straight friend who WORKED HER ASS OFF phone banking for months just so that we could have the same rights she has. People were furious that I dared to say thanks to a straight person. I just don't get it.
127
Macklemore has been accused of exploiting gays for profit, appropriating black culture, and winning the Grammy because of "White Privilege".

A lesser person would have just said, "fuck this and fuck everybody" and quit music altogether.
128
"Attacking people who are on our side and having a huge impact isn't going to get us to equality any faster."

Correct, but if we don't critique the fixable shortcomings of our comrades, we won't get to equality ever. Let's not forget while we're attacking each other for attacking each other that somewhere in-between is the question "how do we do 'being an ally on live tv' more effectively next time?"
- from an ally
129
Raku, as the Clash once sang, "Anger can be power/Did you know that you can use it?" And indeed anger has been used to change things for the better. But I don't think you're using yours to any positive effect.

Here is how you decided to phrase your point:

But it's clear as the fucking day that Macklemore is only beloved by white people because he's a straight white dude.


You spoke in absolute terms. ONLY white people like Macklemore. It's ONLY because he's white and straight. Since absolutes like that can't be true, people reacted against it accordingly. You sabotaged a point by oversimplifying and overjudging. Hence this shitstorm. People WERE attacking the message because, as stated, it was unproven and likely untrue.

Any time you get everyone mad at you, you have done something wrong. you need to learn from these experiences, because pissing off everyone effects no change. I assume change is your goal?

BTW, thank you for answering my question.
130
Reading this makes me sad. So. Many. Bitches.

Nasty and bitter hipster bitches. Pissed off that someone is making a statement but too damn lazy to get off their ass and bust it to make their own.

Bitches.
131
@raku so white people can rap but they can't be successful at it? While I agree that macklemores whiteness has probably help him get a large white audience, its b.s. that he's taking all the attention and money away from black rappers. In the last three decades there's really only been three huge white rappers:the beastie boys, enemen(ugh too early to spell correctly) and macklemore. Whereas there's been a large number of successful black rappers. No one gives a fuck about white people raping when they've not big (whereas the hate towards buck65 or sage Francis?) but when once a decade one gets huge people lose their shit.

Look I agree that white privilege exists and macklemore privileges from it. But as you said even he calls it out, so what do you want from him? What could macklemore do to make him ok? If its just stop rapping then just come out and say it.
132
Could we please not dumb down the definition of words until they're completely fucking worthless?

A racist is not a white person who happens to identify more with other white people than with black people. Affinity group attractions are normal in our species, and can be benign. No, a racist is someone who behaves contemptibly towards [Black / Asian / Hispanic / etc.] people because they're [Black / Asian / Hispanic / etc.], who refuses to treat them equally, and/or who supports policies to disadvantage them.

It's not even clear to me that people like Macklemore because he's white rather than black. He's doing rap, but if you'll forgive my uneducated ear, it's a different sound than other rap artists. Maybe he has a following, in part, because some people actually like his music... you know, musically? Personally, I'm not much of a fan of rap, period, so I don't have a dog in this fight.

A homophobe is not a straight person who primarily identifies with other straight people, doesn't understand gay culture, gay memes, and doesn't like everything gay people like. No, a homophobe is someone who behaves contemptibly towards gay people, refuses to treat them equally, and/or supports policies to disadvantage them.

As long as someone is honestly and actively willing to support social justice for you, can we please cut them some slack, even if they embarrass you a little?
133
Do any of you people have jobs or daily obligations?
134
@raku, "You can call someone full of shit for feeling oppressed or outraged all you want, but you're obviously not being an ally to them."

No, that's fucking stupid.

It's a delicate thing, of course, because - being not of category X - I might think there's no cause for my friend of category X's outrage when there actually *is* cause. That's the essence of privilege. So folks not of category X need to be careful.

But also? I might be right. If my X friend is being a fucking asshole and undercutting his cause - for example, seeing oppression where there isn't any, or outrage where it's not justified - then calling him on it is essential to being his friend and an ally. I'm doing much more to help him and his cause than I am by blindly supporting him NO MATTER WHAT HE SAYS WITHOUT QUESTION. (And it might be exactly my quality of not-being-X which gives me the objectivity to see that he's full of it.)

It doesn't matter if you're trolling or not: the fact that you have outright stated that any and all criticism makes someone an "enemy" means that there is no possibility of having a productive conversation with you - because you won't criticism (or even inquiries) without categorizing the criticizer as an enemy.

So: bozo bit, flipped.
135
134: There's a difference between asking questions about what someone means or how they feel or to explain things (fine for an ally) and calling someone full of shit or telling them to shut up (obviously not something an ally does).

If you have a theoretical friend who is unreasonable, and thinks all white people need to give up all their worldly possessions to brown people and then punch yourself in the face for a week to reconcile injustices, and you're not OK with that, then don't be an ally to them. Easy!

"I'm just playing devil’s advocate here" — ancient white male proverb

Of course, such theoretical friends with ridiculous requests don't really exist. Privileged people LOVE extreme theoreticals because they don't seem to understand actual, real systemic problems in society. In reality, the request here is to support any of the thousands of socially-conscious brown/queer rap artists instead of just white/straight rap artists who are appropriating a generation of black music and culture. No unreasonable requests.
136
#129: I didn't say only white people like Macklemore, I said white people (as a social group) only love him so much because he's white. And it's very clear that he only has this level of popularity because he's a white man. Like I posted, even Macklemore agrees with those two sentences.

You're assuming I don't want people to get mad at me. It would be fun if everyone agreed 100% with everything I say and gave me internet hugs, but people get angry or defensive when someone questions their basic assumptions about themselves and how they behave in society. Unless they're Fnarf, and then they get angry when someone doesn't know everything about the Grammies for some reason.

I know most people won't change their minds, but at least they're checking their privilege for a brief moment.
137
@135 why are you assuming that those who like macklemore don't like queer/black musicians? Why does support need to be an either/or? You said its ok for white person to rap, if that's true then under what conditions is ok to you that people support them when they do rap?
138
Love this video. And Yep, "what she said."
139
@ 136, " I said white people (as a social group) only love him so much because he's white."

given all the white support of rap music (estimates are that no less than 60% of rap music and concert ticket purchases are by white folks), that's patently untrue. "As a social group" doesn't change it.

Also, I'm not assuming you want people to like you; I'm assuming you want to help effect change. You can't do that by alienating your most important allies. (And we ARE your allies - we still vote for politicians and bills to end discrimination all across the board, which directly changes things, while educating the less enlightened among us about how things ought to be.)

Anyway, putting people on the defensive rarely makes them think. Usually it just makes them mad. But if you must, it's better to direct that to your opponents. Some of us white straight cis guys may need reminders of our privilege from time to time, but it's much more effective if the reminder comes with love and kindness than judgment and a dismissal of the good work we've done for your cause.
140
Look, Raku, here's your premise:

"I haven't heard anyone coherent complaining about Macklemore for existing or for writing songs supportive of gay marriage. This premise is a ridiculous strawman.

But it's clear as the fucking day that Macklemore is only beloved by white people because he's a straight white dude.

It's infuriating that Macklemore is a millionaire and praised for "doing it on his own" when he's doing it on the backs of thousands of queer and brown people who did the same thing as Macklemore better and longer.

What he's doing is fine. But white society's reaction to him is in-fucking-sane."

People responded to that. You made a blanket declaration which many people disagree with, because they enjoy his music, or they enjoy his message more than the messages of other rappers. Eminem doesn't get loved by the same group, because his message and music are different from Macklemore, even though they're both straight white men.

So you started off with accusing Dan of making up this backlash, and then following that up with a ludicrous over statement of what you now say is your position. Do you see the difference between the two sentences in @136? "I said white people only love him so much because he's white." => riles people up.
"[I]t's very clear that he only has this level of popularity because he's a white man." => A far more reasonable statement.

You came out blazing, got the reaction you were looking for, and then retreated to a more reasonable position with a few "why so serious?"

If Dan and Arielle have seen this backlash, why don't you listen to them and assume they aren't lying? Or are you not interested in allying with them?
141
This. Is. SUCH. A breath of fresh air. Yes! Thank you, Arielle, for so eloquently expressing what so many queers have been thinking. It's embarrassing to be associated with queers who are utterly ungrateful for ally support. If you support marriage equality, how can you possibly believe that straight people shouldn't voice their support for it too?
142
I am gay and I can't stand Macklemore. If he wants everyone to be okay with gays then why does he spend the whole first verse of that saccharine drivel he calls a song asserting his heterosexuality? Macklemore just reeks of disingenuousness. Maybe some gays are good at identifying posers and this so called "backlash" reflects that. It's pretty telling of his character that he instagrammed a private text he sent to Kendrick Lamar saying he should be the rightful winner of that Grammy, just so everyone could see what a "good guy" he is. Macklemore is gross.
143
Raku there is a difference between being an ally and an acolyte, which is apparently what you wish we all were. Well tough nuts for you my dear. Fnarf and Macklemore and Venomlash and Dan Savage, and I as well, will all continue to be allies and work toward a better world despite, and acknowledging, our various levels of privilege.
And if you, or some bitter loons on tumblr don't like you can suck on a penny.
Macklemore wrote a lovely song in support of social justice.
And again if you don't like it, there's that penny you can suck on while you get on with the business of working toward social justice in your own way.
144
why are you assuming that those who like macklemore don't like queer/black musicians? Why does support need to be an either/or?


I'm talking about society, not individual decisions, which can be complex (but honestly usually aren't). It's clear that people who like macklemore (as a social group) don't like queer/black rappers, because queer/black rappers work full time jobs as dishwashers, while Macklemore could hire a squadron of dishwashers to clean his award statues and platinum records every day.

Matt - I don't see the difference except of anything I've said except in tone... agreed, I back off in my tone when I'm being attacked to try and de-escalate.
145
I happen to be a guy who likes (some) guys.

Couldn't care less about Macklemore, gay marriage, queer identity, hip hop, skin color, proper social terminology, pretentious columnists, or self-righteous queens trying to speak for everyone else. I'm not a part of anyone's rainbow-infested "community". Bear individuals like me in mind when trying to group people together for the sake of convenience or political flag-waving.

PS - Fuck pop culture. It's never worth arguing about.
146
What the fuck ever! No no no, random video girl and Dan, a song all about him being straight and licking his own asshole the entire time on twitter about said song, as if. There's queer rappers he could have made the song with. Last time I checked not a single one of us needed a straight dude approval to be us.
147
@146: Ahem.
Mary Lambert, with whom the song was made, is gay.
Try again.
148
@ 144, perhaps. I wouldn't characterize angry reactions all as "attacks," but it is true that some people react personally - perhaps because they take things personally, which may have something to do with blanket statements.

But it's clear as the fucking day that Macklemore is only beloved by white people because he's a straight white dude.


A lot of the reactions you got probably wouldn't have happened if you had substituted "largely" for "only."

Someone on YouTube telling black queers on tumblr to stop criticizing the rich white Grammy-winning, SNL-hosting Macklemore is not being an ally.


Allies can disagree and still be allies. Purity tests only divide and weaken causes.

Unfortunately my guide for being an ally is very difficult to follow for white dudes.


It's so bizarre, white dudes' inability to listen.


If I said "It's so bizarre, black queers' inability to listen," or suggested that it was difficult for black queers to follow anythingI'd be rightfully excoriated on Slog. We white dudes do have a greater capacity for absorbing these kinds of statements, what with our much greater privilege compared to women, people of color, queers and trans folk - those of us who are allies don't complain, it seems that only bigoted types do - but that doesn't make it right.

These are observations I offer because I do believe that you can contribute a lot more to the dialogue around here if you aren't alienating people with your tone. After rereading your comments to find these quotes of yours, I was able to really suss out the point you were making - something that frankly I had just glossed over the first time around, partly because some of the key words that jumped out at me, largely due to the way I regard you based upon some of the run-ins we've had. It's too bad sometimes, but once we get a reputation, people decide that that's the box we fit in and won't listen to us when maybe we're being more reasonable. I know some people here likely won't take me seriously ever again based on some of our previous encounters, where I was nasty because I felt like being that way. I own that because I'm more responsible for the impression I leave than the people upon whom I impress. (It doesn't bother me too much - nearly everyone here, including Dan and Fnarf, have clay feet themselves - but I'd rather that I hadn't gone down that road when I did.)

Anyway, just something I wanted to say... take it or leave it as you see fit.
149
Two things:

1. In art (including music), there are ALWAYS people who are better at their craft who get less recognition than the people who have the right connections/timing/luck, or yes, the favor of being in the majority. It sucks, but it's real. It will always be an issue, even if we get to a place where society is class- and color-blind, because art is subjective and life is unpredictable.

2. We should be celebrating that there is a shift in the tides, that a song with the subject matter of Same Love could become a hit at all, when not too long ago it would have never gotten air time. Now it becomes a huge hit and is performed at the Grammys, and gets everyone talking. Most people would never get the opportunity to put the issue under a spotlight, but Macklemore did get that opportunity, and he used it to further a cause that could use it. Whether or not he profits from it, SO DOES THE CAUSE. Let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater.

The point is, there are two sides to everything, and yes, the negative sides are valid issues that deserve to be discussed. But they don't negate the positive sides. Any underprivileged minority is never going to get anywhere without the more privileged majority getting on board. Like Macklemore or hate him, he's getting stuff done.
150
@raku

"it's clear as the fucking day that Macklemore is only beloved by white people because he's a straight white dude."

I am white. I like Macklemore because of his music and some of the messages within it. I couldn't care less what colour he is, or what his sexual orientation is. Therefore the absolute point you made about white people's opinions is wrong.

Please step away from your keyboard. Try smiling. Not everybody is against you, you don't have to argue with the world.
151
#142 If he wants everyone to be okay with gays then why does he spend the whole first verse of that saccharine drivel he calls a song asserting his heterosexuality?

Because it explains and highlights that he's a straight ally! Jesus Christ, do they not teach critical reading/thinking skills in school anymore?
152
@144 that's flawed logic. Buck65 doesn't make a living from rapping, does that mean society hates white Canadian rappers just because macklemore is successfully? As pointed out before black rappers are generally more successful then white rappers. Stating that some black rappers aren't successful and macklemore is isn't the same as stating that black rappers aren't successfully due to macklemore being successful.

Also did you read the link posted on slog that maps Seattle political landscape? The poor areas that are mostly minorities are the ones that support gay rights the least, whereas the whiter richer areas support gay rights the most..now there are probably complex reasons for this, but life isn't as simple as straight white man = the enemy...

And you still haven't answered, what does a white person have to do in order for it to be ok for them to rap?
153
Jesus sloggers, that's quite the troll buffet you've laid out.
154
this is why i no longer consider myself an ally to the alphabet community. why support people who treat you like shit?
155
@68 Fnarf,
Good observations. Especially your last paragraph.

I read Paul De Barros' piece in the Seattle Times this evening about Macklemore's apology and wondered "what's all the fuss was about?". But, I didn't watch the Grammys. Nor, did I want to. I don't believe I've watched it for 20 years.

There's no accounting for taste. Some of the finest music artists don't get recognized. Have the Smiths, arguably the UK's finest rock n' roll band after the Beatles ever won one? I honestly don't know. I believe Otis Redding to be the finest Soul artist ever. Did he ever win a Grammy? Dunno. On the other hand, Sir George Solti, conductor and I believe, Music Director of the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, at one time the finest symphony orchestra in America (I believe that's accurate. I made damn certain to see him conduct while he was in his prime during the 80s) won the most Grammys.

So, the Grammys are quirky. I don't think they are indicative of great talent.
156
I can't believe I haven't seen anyone else point out how delicious it is that raku's avatar is "never read the comments," when all of raku's comments are garbage.
157
Also I heard that one time Macklemore kicked a coyote. So there's that.
158
@156,
159
Gah. That was "slow claps".
160
The thing that bugs me the most about the "same love" bashing think pieces that accuse macklemore of profiting from the lbgt community is that they take the song out of context. The song was first released for the Washington state gay marriage campaign, which wasn't just taking gays but target straights as well. And that's EXACTLY what this song does. It basically says calm down straight people, and guess what straight people responded to it. Also money from this song went to helping the gay marriage campaign and Macklemore continues to give money to lbgt causes in the community. So where was all this macklemore hate from the gay community back in 2012 when the song was released? It seems to have came later after gay marriage passed.
161
Fnarf wins this thread, raku loses, case closed. Now let's all go home and drink and masturbate for awhile.
162
@158,159: You mean like this? (I think the white dude in tux is just bonus points.)

No so slow clap.

Have I lost my mind? Didn't we use to be able to embed images and gifs?
163
@161: We were supposed to wait until we got home to do that?
164
@163: Wait a minute, how are you typing?

...never mind, I don't want to know that.
165
No, that's not true. I kind of do want to know that.
166
And this doesn't even touch on all of the identity-policing around who gets to 'legitimately' claim various queer identities (and especially ones with labels some people consider to be hate speech irrespective of context *cough* GLAAD *cough*).

Also, RE: the concept of "appropriation" raised at various points - it doesn't exist. For "appropriation" to be a real thing, 'culture' would need to be some sort of static, definitively-delineated collection of ideas and behaviors that could then be (only) legitimately 'owned' by a certain group. It's not: culture is ever-evolving, always-contested, and inevitably an admixture of bits and pieces of innumerable 'other' cultures both historical and contemporary. There is no such thing as cultural appropriation; most of what is considered bad 'appropriation' isn't bad because an 'outsider' is adopting something associated with a cultural discourse of which ze is not widely considered a part, it's bad because it involves exploitation or reinforces baseless discrimination or marginalization. Criticize bad behavior on the basis that it's harmful - stop trying to come up with an overblown catch-all category of behavior that's always bad (the goodness or badness of most behaviors - up to and including homicide - depends entirely on the context and outcomes).
167
@151:

Dear Jade,
If you really want to do some CRITICAL THINKING maybe you should examine why it's important for him to identify himself as a "straight ally" in the first place.

It's like saying, "Hey fellow straight hip hop peeps you should really be nicer to gay people, seriously, you can listen to me cos I'm straight and I like pussy (which I'm gonna get a ton of with this song) so don't worry!"

Also it doesn't make the song any less sappy. I couldn't even listen to the whole thing. Ugh.
168
John Horstman may be giving Fnarf a run for his thread-win money. <3
169
...And it doesn't cover up the fact that he's scolding an entire community that many view him as appropriating...
170
@167 & 169:
Macklemore has gay people in his family. He wrote a song in support of marriage equality. He used that song to raise awareness of the fight for marriage equality in his home state of Washington. Money from downloads went toward that campaign. All this before he was anything close to a big noise nationally. He did a good thing for a good cause.
You don't care for the song and find it sappy? Fine. The rest of your comment is projecting on your part.
Like I told Raku, we'll all keep working for social justice, and if you don't like it, here's that penny you can suck on while you do it your own way.
171
@170 : Yes! Thank you for stating this so clearly and calmly.
172
@171:Thank you, you are kind. :)
173
mackleroni and cheese suck balls.

musically, that is.
174
@170 That was a nice jab about working for social justice, but how is it justice to continue to give benefits to married people over single people? Marriage is nice for those that want it, but it doesn't make people equal, and it distracts from the real sources of marginalization queer people face like bullying, sexism, heteronormativity, gender role conformity, the list goes on... Mackelmore's first verse of his "gay song" manages to fall into many of those trappings. You say i'm projecting but I'm not the only person who feels pandered to and exploited. Can't help the way we feel ;)

175
@174: The first verse is about how stereotypes mess us up and confuse us. The money line in it is "A preconceived idea of what it all meant/For those that liked the same sex"
He has a later verse about how online bullying is problematic, and the theme of his song is that it is the "Same Love" ("Strip away the fear/Underneath it's all the same love"), and shouldn't be treated differently. It was used in a fight about marriage equality, but the message is by no means limited to that.
176
@174: You might not be able to help the way you feel, but you might attempt to think critically and listen to what he's actually saying. The first verse is specifically *about* how sexism and gender role conformity caused him to doubt his sexuality despite his clear desire for women. I understand we all have different agendas and priorities in the "fight for equality," but I think this song does a great job at tackling many of them, even if it doesn't necessarily strike a blow for genderqueer polyamorists or other subsets on the LGB(TQ) community.
177
@174, I'm sorry that you feel exploited. It MAY help you to feel better to think about 2 things:
1) If the proceeds of this song were directed to the marriage equality movement, instead of the artist's pocketbook, then gays as a group have been exploited for the good of gays as a group. It still chafes to have been exploited, but surely less than if it'd been for the benefit of some rich white guy.
2) putting aside the musical value (one good hook and quite a bit of shakily-structured meandering) and lyrical value (simplistic, preachy, and that perhaps-understandable desperation - note that an ally might well make a point of setting up his ally credentials to avoid being accuse of pretending to be gay for political advantage) of this song, it's proving effective. Anecdotal evidence shows that after analyzing this song, a quarter of the class of 14-year old I teach in a small rural community went from "being gay is gross, and wrong, and I'll hit any gay who tries to talk to me!" to "meh, well, I suppose they should be allowed to get married, it doesn't affect me". With teenage bigots, that's a huge stride. And I know it'll frustrate Raku to read it, but these kids explicitly state that the song is effective at conveying its message in large part because, "it's Mackelmore, he's famous and I like him."
178
@174: When I was on Chris Hayes' show with Urvashi Vaid, we talked about just that—that access to health care, for instance, shouldn't be determined by marriage. (Or employment, for that matter.) That's one reason—just one—why I support a single-payer health care system and talk about it constantly. People shouldn't have to marry to access health care, or stay married to hold on to it.
179
@174: Oh so now it's not that Macklemore wrote the song to get laid and paid, off of the backs of the gay community, it's that the song is in support of marriage equality. Aaaaand you haven't even really listened to the song because it's too sappy get all the way through. I see.

I have to echo every comment from 175 to Dan @178, and you're right that marriage is great for those who want it and indeed is not the be all and end all of social justice issues effecting the LGTBQ community. Nobody said it was. The song addresses one of the many. That it doesn't address all of them was not its intent, and that the one it does address does not happen to be of importance to you, does not detract from its importance to others.

It's not a zero sum game.
180
Macklemore finds it important to valdidate this song by devoting the whole first verse to asserting his straighthood priveledge. It's all "straightsplained" here: http://gawker.com/a-field-guide-to-strai…
181
I don't think this issue is that he's a heterosexual advocating for queer people, I think the issue is the message of assimilation that he (and queers) promote that is dangerous. While "same love" might be really cute and work with straight people, I think that queer people should be upset by the term "same love". In the early 90s Michael Warner wrote an article in The Nation about how the gay movement has become increasingly conservative, and it's only gotten worse. Our spokespeople advocate rights of assimilation and participation (like conservatives) as opposed to rights of expression. If we continue to follow the lead of people like Andrew Sullivan, we'll all go home once we have marriage and cook until we die.

As said above, we don't have the same love. That's the idea of queer. That's why it's subversive. I'm astounded that gays don't take issue with this message.
182
The article said, with feigned astonishment, that "the same people" -- who were angry at beer companies for not recognizing Lesbian/Gay, imbibing customers -- are now angry about our communities getting exploited by giant alcohol corporations. WRONG!

In my experience, these are NOT "the same people." You are confusing love of that sexy demon alcohol with political antagonism toward the capitalist commoditization of people. These are distinctly opposed attitudes!

All year long, booze advertisers try to gain an edge over the competition with sumptuous "A-Gay"-targeted ad campaigns for vodka, tequila, etc... Then, when Pride season arrives, a body of passionately political queers disdain the big sponsored parades and beer gardens as they carve out unofficial space for intense, multifaceted, DIY/do-it-together activity, activism, and celebration.

It's where militant queer radicals distinguish themselves from the fictional corporate homo-homogeneous niche market.

Not the same.
183
A mistake: instead of "opposed attitudes" I meant to say "different attitudes." No reason you can't party AND fight in a social/political revolution. My point was that the author tailored an ill-fitting equivalence in a misguided effort to squash queer political statements which remain unapproved by the good folks at Duff Beer, or whatever.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.


    Add a comment
    Preview

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.