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I hope she drops his ass, and finds a real human being.
I don't know about you lot, but I have fucked a few of my friends over the years. Big deal. We're still friends and chances of repeat performance is about zero.
And, yeah, know that the child molestation at 5, the rape at 18 and this sexual assault at age 26 are NOT her fault. They are the fault of the men who committed those crimes.
Nor is the shitty, controlling, soon-to-be-ex-fiance her fault. Thankfully she's (1) planning to DTMFA (yeah!!!) and (2) she wrote Dan who (she knows quite well), would support (hell, demand) DTMFA.
As Dan has said in other cases, sometimes what you get out of being involved with a (fill in the blank, e.g. controlling abuser) is a better controlling-abuser bullshit detector going forward.
This is NOT an indication that her taste in men is wrong. But shows that, of course, the controlling abusers who get someone in their grasp are those who have some charm and appeal.
Rude, selfish men, the both of them.
There are people out there who will unequivocally believe what has happened to you, and who will love and support you. Dump your fiancee, dump the friend who treated you this way, dump every friend who ever called you a liar for speaking about what happened to you, and find better, more supportive and more loving friends. It might suck and be lonely for a few months, but you'll be happier two years down the road.
Even if he was, and that lent ANY cred to 'wonderful' boyfriends judgment, WB is still a demonstrated pile of shit for saying she 'cheated' by being assaulted outside a bar.
I'm pretty sure there was never anything 'wonderful' about this piece of shit. WTF may just have appalling luck, but she might want to recruit some help in dealing with the terrible stuff she's lived through--including this episode.
RUN WHILE YOU CAN, LW.
Did you try following the logic, such as it is?
Fiance blames you for being sexually assaulted? DOUBLE red flag.
Fiance blames you for being sexually assaulted, even though he knows you've been sexually abused multiple times before and that at those previous times people don't believe you when you say you were assaulted? SUPER DOUBLE EVERLASTING RED FLAG.
Any one of these things should be enough to drop him on the spot. I know how hard that is, because I've been through it. You have to make the decision on your own time line. But you deserve better than this shit.
That said, it is, in its odd ironic way, good that she didn't, because it revealed CABF as his true self, and now she has the info necessary to dump BOTH of the shit-stains.
Yes, absolutely, DTMFA.
Your fiancé is blaming the victim and slut-shaming you. He's manipulating and controlling you. Whatever qualities you thought you saw in him before are irrelevant. He has revealed himself to be completely contemptible when you needed his support the most.
You are absolutely NOT the motherfucker who needs to be dumped.
You did nothing--NOTHING--wrong.
You deserve better. From your romantic partners, from your friends, from whoever raped you at 18 and whoever molested you at 5.
DTMFYesterday and find friends who believe in you and believe you.
And clearly the fiance has trust issues or he may be the type who thinks his girlfriend is cheating on him if she's too friendly with another man. His blaming WTF for her assaults is sickening. WTF, not only should you dump this guy, but you should cull everyone who didn't believe you from your life and find a support group to help you deal with the abuse you've endured.
And as someone else suggests, seeing a therapist can't hurt. Contact your local rape crisis center for a recommendation.
And any injuries would be more shit put at this distressed young woman's feet.
Sounds like her friend is a real asshole, too.
Dan's (and everyone else's) advice seems pretty spot on, assuming they're reading it correctly.
Her mastery of writing clarity isn't so hot, but the included details point to "this guy" meaning "THE guy."
It's just that despite his assholery, he was right about Slimeball Watering Hole Sexual Assault Ex. Imagine if she had listened to CABF and cut contact with SWHSAE. The assault would not have happened, nor all of the fallout from it, but she would have ended up stuck with CABF.
I'm not saying it was her fault for not dropping him. It's just that she was damned if she did and damned if she didn't. It reads like a cross between a Greek tragedy and an O Henry short story.
Watering hole". I'm pretty sure by her wording, she means the long term friend.
I misread, Water Hole, I thought she met this guy while swimming. She met this guy at the Local Pub. Now I'm with it.
(*It doesn't actually matter whether she is objectively innocent of your accusations. If you are going to believe your own accusations enough to make them and mean it, then dump her over them. But again, making the shitty accusations and then staying in the relationship while you beat her over the head day after day with your angry talk just makes you one of the bad guys, regardless of whether your accusations are true or not.
So the woman yesterday, how you propose she do the single parent thing? While pregnant? You got some plan for her? You gonna turn up at her place and help?
You don't think most relationships where children are involved, don't include compromises?
This guy, today, is a pretty weird guy. The guy yesterday was a piece of work, no doubt. And it may very well not work in any way forward, for this family. It is though, a family. You really got kids Chase?
That woman yesterday is a couple of months pregnant. All very good to stand on your soapbox, yet, you have no idea how vulnerable a pregnant women feels.
All I know is, anyone who uses the expression "filthy slut" un-ironically is not exactly a keeper.
He wanted him out of her life because he's insecure and jealous. Not because he actually cared about the LW and had misgivings about friends intentions.
Just as a broken clock can be right twice a day even an abusive asshole can be right about *something* whether it's a friend being a scumbag, a car needing to be checked out, or even who wins the Superbowl.
No one who would treat you like these two have deserves to be in your life.
I did the exact opposites. I assumed it was the same friend, then Dan's uncertainty made me reread it and now I'm not entirely sure if it was someone else or not.
The guy in the bar who assaults her is obviously the 10-yr old "friend". Don't know why that's not obvious to some.
At 26 I was with the wrong guy. Controlling, abusive. Didn't happen all at once, obviously. He was super sexy & charming & all those good make your heart sing, type things. We wound up getting "engaged" (I said maybe). Abuse got worse. We broke up but remained friends for over a decade - & he wound up abusing other women even worse than he had, me. :( that's 14 or 15 years of my life spent with & then around someone emotionally manipulative, controlling, & abusive. I'm seeing a therapist now..finally..but what I'm saying here is: that leaves deep wounds on your psyche, & you've already had some hard times.
Don't be me! "Loyalty" doesn't apply to people who would control & hurt you. Make a clean break with the ex - & I'm repeating @31/iseult's advice here for clarity - NO reconciliation. Stay with family or somewhere else you are 100% safe & block his texts & calls. People who isolate you from others are setting you up for worse. You deserve better than this.
Also, there's no going back in a relationship from someone calling your a "filthy slut" for being sexually assaulted. Run, don't walk, away from this schmuck. & please get therapy sooner rather than later. Don't waste precious time wondering why people don't believe you. Find better people, & that starts with unflinchingly knowing yourself.
Hugs, letter writer / FTW.
That could be the action of a particularly self-entitled random bar patron, but it makes even more sense coming from the slimeball Ex, thinking she was on the outs with Boyfriend and assuming that he was thereby in the running again.
Controlling Asshole Boyfriend is convinced beyond all possibility of reason that his girlfriend cheated on him. It's been going on for months. Nothing we say here is going to move him off of that position. So I addressed the situation by saying okay, just for the sake of argument, let's take CABF's working assumption and run with it.
IF you believe your partner cheated on you -- and that is what CABF believes; unjustly, yes, but it's his fundamental working assumption -- THEN you dump that person. You do NOT stay in the relationship and continue to beat them over the head with it for months.
That also has the added benefit that if you accuse them unjustly, they are well rid of your jealous, insecure, abusive ass that much quicker.
WTF--if you live with ex-fiance, get out NOW. Total break. The sooner, the better, for your mental health. If you can only find a couch at a friend's place on short notice, put all your stuff in a storage unit until you have a longer term situation ready.
Then block this guy in every way, shape, or form possible. Phone, social media, etc. Same with the sexually assaulting ex-friend. Your life is too valuable to put up with that shit.
Yeah, that's a tough situation for everyone.
What is actually tough for the letter writer is that she may still hold a lot of affection and desire for her (hopefully) ex-fiancé. I know I do for my ex, even though she was so emotionally abusive that it's taken years for me to regain some semblance of a healthy self esteem.
Or what @26 said.
Not telling her to stay with the boyfriend.
Possibly commenting on WTF's ability to accurately assess people. She seems to have chosen poorly in both the friend and boyfriend categories. Which doesn't excuse sexual assault or verbal/emotional abuse.
Creep starts moving in on my wife, I tell her I don't want her hanging out with him, wife defends her relationship with creep, denies creep could ever possibly be interested in her in that way ("He's married with kids, I'm married with kids, he'd never try something with me!"), wife pathologizes and shames me for my jealousy, hangs out with creep anyway, creep ultimately reveals his intentions to be exactly as I (and everyone else we ran the situation by, including my wife's girlfriends) had thought.
On the plus side, the trauma of sitting home alone with my kids and my jealousy (which again, I'd been thoroughly shamed for feeling) while my wife hung out with the creep gave me the impetus to distance myself from my marriage (something that needed to happen anyway) and begin what has turned out to be the funnest most wonderful phase of my life. So thanks, creep.
Do you think a husband or wife is obligated to be supportive of their spouse's relationships with people who want to fuck them? Is that the standard?
I have to admit that I could totally roll with that now because there are women who want to fuck me that I could ask out for brunch. (I don't do that, mind you, because it would upset my wife). But back then, with two small children, a full time job, a business I was trying to get off the ground, and hardly any time for socializing, my wife's brunch dates with creep just didn't work for me.
I get that nixing contact between your partner and someone actively pursuing them decreases the chances that infidelity will occur. Exercising control in that fashion, however, is not something I want in a relationship, nor will I stand to have that sort of control exercised over me ever again.
I mean it's one thing to ask your partner not to hang out with someone who sends them love notes and candy. It's another thing to ask your partner to not hang out with anyone who find them attractive, or might find them attractive in the future.
This controlling and paranoid behavior (and making this about how HE feels about it instead of the terrible thing that happened to you) is such a warning sign. I had an eerily similar experience-- met the guy through a mutual friend I had had a brief flirtation with but wasn't interested in and who once overstepped his bounds at a party, which was something we talked about and worked through-- started dating the guy who grew increasingly weird/jealous about the mutual friend, eventually emotionally blackmailing me into cutting off all ties/avoiding being anywhere near him despite having other mutual friends. Anyway, yadda yadda it didn't end with that friend, next I was being accused of cheating on him with my roommate, co-workers, couldn't leave the house without him questions where I was and who with. It was terrible and got strung out for almost two years before I finally crawled out of the deep, depressing hole I was in and walked away. Even months later he still had his destructive hooks in me. The sooner you walk away, the sooner you can move on and find a partner that treats you like a human being and not a piece of property.
It doesn't have to be so obvious as valentines sent, past behavior displaying a lack of consideration for attempting to go after parties in relationships combined with questionably personal//intimate current behavior for "just a friend". It's hard to define in the abstract, but some people just give off red flags.
Not that that's necessarily what happened here, but regarding the "It's another thing to ask your partner to not hang out with anyone who find them attractive, or might find them attractive in the future." behavioral cues can exist beyond concerned about all possible potential mates jealousy.
My personal reflex, when one of my exes has tried to control me in such a way (the two times I made the mistake of making a supposedly monogamous commitment - I say supposedly because in the end, the jealous boyfriends cheated on me), was to think that if I'm already a cheating slut in his eyes, and if I already have to endure the insults and everything that comes with that, I might as well cheat on him anyway (which, unfortunately, I didn't do, since I take my commitments seriously).
Yep, sounds like it.
And somebody telling you to stop seeing a friend of yours is always a red flag. If somebody has actual concerns about a friend of yours, they can share those concerns with you. They can tell you what they have observed and why it makes them uncomfortable and you two can discuss it. But somebody outright telling you how to run your own friendships: red flag whether or not the person they pointed out turns out to cause problems.
Also, if you ever have a friend or partner hanging out with somebody who seems like they might cause problems - raise your concerns, but do not tell them to just stop seeing them. That's controlling behavior, and it's not your place to run somebody else's life, even a romantic partner's.
Welcome to the sitting home with kids wondering what the spouse is up to club.. Bonds you to the kids, though.
And uncreative is right. If you think your partner is a cheating scumbag who's going to jump on the first cock/pussy they get a chance at why are you dating them? Wouldn't it be better to end the relationship than to stick it out with someone you don't trust?
There's a big difference between 'Friend X gives me a weird vibe and I'm worried about your relationship with them' and 'You can't see Friend X because they want you and I know you'll cheat on me the instant your out of my sight.'
I feel most sorry for her ... that her self-respect has eroded to the extent that she wonders whether she might be the MF. Not surprising when she hasn't been believed when reporting sexual assault.
What the fuck?
Look there are a tons of reasons to not want an ex in your life, even if they aren't an awful human being. And I've never been a fan of the belief that you MUST be best friends with everyone you ever dated and if you're not you're a terrible person.
But at the same time it's ridiculous to insist that every romantic relationship that ends can never become a friendship. And to ignore that there are tons of reasons to keep someone in your life even if the romantic didn't pan out.
If it were the same guy, I think she'd have said "I saw my old friend" or "I saw my friend". Also nothing in her letter asked about what she should do about the friend, who's also turned on her -- it was all about the fiance who turned on her. So I think she's got one guy problem, not two.
Think it's a third guy.
I just want to gently suggest that after she frees herself from these shitty people, she needs to check herself into therapy to see why she is drawn to dirtbags. A history of abuse (even non-sexual) can lead to self-esteem issues, which could be a reason she is drawn to people who treat her this way. Dirtbags (user/abuser types - both the fiance and the "friend") hone in on the scent of low-self-esteem as a marker for a good choice of victim.
None of this is her fault, but getting therapy is the answer to taking control of her own life to get out of a cycle of being drawn towards abusers.
Not all scenarios are the same, not all "flames" burn and burn out and leave imprints the same. I'd only get concerned if there was inappropriate behavior from them and a general disrespect towards myself from that party, I have no general problem with my partner hanging around with exes.
And no, this story is not representative of anything inevitable from "allowing" your partner to hang out with friends they used to date.
@93: Ultimately no.
If you want to see childish, look in the mirror. You think like an 8 year old.
Demanding that your partner cut contact with all their exes/people they've ever slept with is an controlling abuser move. Most people in the slog comments know that.
"Anyways, the potential for children(cool, have a fucking tax break?) means no, I don't want you hanging out with someone you've banged. What are you missing here?"
What the hell does this mean? If I have kids, they could somehow be damaged by the presence of people I had sex with once 10 years ago? None of your points are clear and most of them sound like insecure bullshit.
Unlike you, many of the commenters here already have children and/or are already married. Dan is a married father. They’re saying the LW’s ex-fiancé was behaving badly.
I’m married. My husband’s ex visited us from Europe and stayed for two weeks. It was really nice. When he goes to Europe he stays with her, her husband and their children. I don’t see a problem. Neither do they.
I’m aware that some people get really nervous around their partners’ exes and that many people prefer a clean break from their own exes. Those are personal feelings and I respect them, but they aren’t rational or proof of anything and other people have different feelings.
Depends on the relationship with ex, surely? If all the sexual attraction has been exhausted, and there is a friendship left- I don't see the harm, in a partner still having a friendship with an ex.
And yes, AFinch. This girl needs to strengthen her self esteem, before hooking up with any new men. A rape support group,
Some individual therapy. Suggest she give herself a good chunk of time, out of dating anyone- and focus on healing these wounds.
It matters in that there is a serious element of "I fucking told you he was bad news, and the fact that you refused to see it when it was so obvious makes me question why."
"I mean, I guess if it was the original friend that the fiancé objected to, I guess you could say had a better read on him than she did,"
Which is a very odd thing, don't you think? That your boyfriend sees your buddy more clearly than you do, even though you are the one who's known him for a decade? When you see that an ex still exhibits interest in your partner, and your partner blows you off, and then you are proved right about that interest, one wonders what the fuck is really going on.
"but it still doesn't change the fact that her (hopefully by now ex-) fiancé is a piece of shit."
No argument there. Various things he did were complete asshole moves. Anything that starts with "If you loved me you would..." is by definition emotional abuse. "You're a filthy cheating slut," obvious abuse. And months of this, abuse abuse abuse. Complete shit moves on his part, and he deserves dumping for how he treated her after the assault, sufficient on its own.
But yes, there is a load of material difference between her being assaulted by some random guy at the bar, and her being assaulted by the Ex that gave you a bad vibe, that she blew off your misgivings about, that she ran to after a fight (including removing her engagement ring), and who felt free to kiss and grope her without even asking.
Imagine this scenario minus the asshole parts of it on Boyfriend's part. Imagine he had gotten a bad vibe, expressed his concerns, gotten blown off, had her have a fight, take her ring off and run to the bar where this guy was, the ex who felt completely free to kiss and grope her on a moment's notice. After that happened, I think she would have some crow to eat, and some explaining to do.
I also think it would be appropriate to do the other thing Asshole Boyfriend wanted, which was to confront Slimeball Ex with Boyfriend present and read him the fucking Riot Act, so that all three of them were on the same page.
Had her boyfriend had the sense to hold his tongue, she would be kicking to the curb only one person: Slimeball Ex. And she would also have some apologizing to do to her boyfriend.
Was she meeting the friend at watering hole or just bump into him there.
Also the LW is not responsible for the rapists friend actions. I'm sorry but not wearing and engagement doesn't mean it's okay to grope someone. And I can't help but feel if the fiance really cared he wouldn't focus on how he was right, he would focus on supporting his GF and calling out the friend.