There are people who believe that women have the right to choose what to do with their own bodies (whether that choice means birthing 18 children, having an abortion, giving a baby up for adoption, spending a fortune on fertility drugs when thousands of living babies go unwanted, or becoming pregnant at 66), and there are people who do not believe women have that right.
And between those two groups, there is no room for “common ground“—any more than there is room for “common ground” between those who support marriage equality and those who believe gay people are condemned to hell. We don’t sit down and dialogue with gay-bashers racists or any other kind of bigot—we pass laws that prohibit their bigotry from infringing on the rights of others. This is a basic tenet of rights-based democracy. Why, when it comes to women’s right to choose, is this so hard to understand?
@85 lrb – Here is your rational pro-life stance:
I believe that human life begins at conception – arguable but rational.
I don’t believe anybody has the right to take a human life.
I am therfore pro-life and rational.
I’m not actually pro-life but i am capable of empathy…you should try it sometime
When people say, “I will allow abortion in the case of rape, incest, or harm to the mother,” then you are saying that a young girl who has been molested by a family member has to get up in front of a bunch of strangers, tell them what happened, and wait for a judge to decide whether she was sufficiently traumatized to deserve an abortion.
The “only in these instances” position makes no sense. Is it wrong to abort a fetus, or isn’t it? If it is, then the circumstances shouldn’t matter. If it isn’t, then let the woman make the decision privately with her doctor. If you are going to be anti-choice, then at least be anti-choice in a committed way.
There were over 24,000 abortions performed in Washington State in 2007 (the most recent year I could find statistics for). Do anti-choicers really want to add the burden of the cost of all those court dates to our state budget?
@103 Thank you, that was much better put than I was able to spit out …
103
“There were over 24,000 abortions performed in Washington State in 2007 (the most recent year I could find statistics for). Do anti-choicers really want to add the burden of the cost of all those court dates to our state budget? “
Are you claiming all 24,000 women were molested by a family member?
103
“then you are saying that a young girl who has been molested by a family member has to get up in front of a bunch of strangers, tell them what happened, and wait for a judge to decide whether she was sufficiently traumatized to deserve an abortion. “
The family member who molested a young girl needs to go to jail and the young girl will need to tell her story to a judge anyway.
If instead Planneed Parenthood quietly sneaks her off for an abortion she (or some other relative) will be victimized again (and again and again).
“Are you claiming all 24,000 women were molested by a family member?”
No, I am claiming that all 24,000 would have gone in front of a judge to plead their case.
“The family member who molested a young girl needs to go to jail and the young girl will need to tell her story to a judge anyway.
If instead Planneed Parenthood quietly sneaks her off for an abortion she (or some other relative) will be victimized again (and again and again).”
Do you know how long a trial takes? Would a woman have to wait for a molester or rapist to be convicted before she could have her abortion?
Oh, wait… now I see the plan. Forcing a woman to take her right to an abortion to court would mean that the baby would be born way before she ever got in front of a judge. Tricky, tricky.
@ 105 and 106 you are, conveniently, overlooking the point here.
Either you are morally opposed to abortion, or you are not. The circumstances should not matter. If you see wiggle room, than you are not morally opposed to abortion.
Period. End of sentence.
@107 … funny that’s what happened in Roe v Wade. The baby was born WAY WAY WAY before the trial ended.
The common ground? … I don’t think it exists. The pro-choice is PRO-CHOICE. It’s a discussion, a dialogue, an opportunity to explore all your moral, social, and personal obligations (which inherantly is so fucking much better for society!). Whereas the pro-life stand is doggishly imposing their dogma on someone else (dogma which is unfounded scientifically and has surprisingly changed much throughout history). Dogma that HARMS SOCIETY!
People are fucked, having a child should not be treated as a right or a command, it should be treated as a privelage. In order for this to work in modern society, we have to accept that people are going to have sex for enjoyment, and accidents will sometimes happen. Let us not all suffer because of this.
@108 – Bad argument.
Extenuating circumstances have a long legal precedent. We can all pretty much agree that killing people is wrong but what if that person breaks into your house and is coming at you with a knife. If you shoot that person it’s not a crime and no longer wrong because of the circumstances involved.
flounder courts are slow.
And to be honest, exception for rape and incest? From the perspective of a pseudo pro-lifer, it’s a mercy killing. It’s basically a person who is wrestling with one complicated moral conundrum over another.
It’s another conflict of personal dogma, and most of us feel that inbreeding and children of rape are best left without having to start life with all that shame and baggage.
And we ALREADY compromised, we gave the choice to people in the first trimester and most of the 2nd. To be honest, most people should have figured out whether or not they wanted to keep the child by then. It was a fair compromise.
@109 – I can only assume you are saying there is no common ground with extremists. I can agree with that, but you really need to understand that there are people out there who are moderate.
Abortion is offensive to a lot of people and it should be, but not all of those people are incapable of level-headed discussion.
If you continue to buy into this us vs. them thinking eventually a Republican will be in power that will have the opportunity to place three supreme court justices and roe v wade will be overturned.
BUT if you engage in meaningful dialogue when that time does come we might get results which both sides can live with, but neither loves, which is what compromise is all about…right?
@110 How is it a bad argument?
In the case of rape or incest the pregnant woman’s life is not expressly in danger. So is that any different than someone who just oops, got pregnant? Only the conception is different, the pregnancy and life of the fetus are no different.
Removing the fetus because a woman is going to die because of it otherwise? What if the fetus had a chance to live despite that? In this instance you are saying it is okay to value the woman’s life over that of the fetus, instead of just letting “nature take it’s course” as they say?
If you say that “sometimes” it is okay, then you are admitting that it is OKAY, you are saying “IT IS OKAY” … therefore, you have overlooked your supposed moral opposition because you have placed a value judgment on the circumstances of conception.
@111 – I’m not arguing for or against. I’m just saying that the following is a bad argument:
“The “only in these instances” position makes no sense. Is it wrong to abort a fetus, or isn’t it? If it is, then the circumstances shouldn’t matter. If it isn’t, then let the woman make the decision privately with her doctor. If you are going to be anti-choice, then at least be anti-choice in a committed way.”
I just wanted to point out that legally there are different definitions and repercussions based on circumstance.
@113
Extenuating circumstances aren’t limited to mortal threat. If a man walks in on his wife with another man and kills that man the husband will normally be charged with manslaughter and not murder. So the reason it is a bad argument is because circumstance dictates legal definitions and repercussions.
“Removing the fetus because a woman is going to die because of it otherwise? What if the fetus had a chance to live despite that? In this instance you are saying it is okay to value the woman’s life over that of the fetus, instead of just letting “nature take it’s course” as they say?”
I’m not saying either, but there is a significant argument for the mother because she is actual life whereas a (viable) fetus is only potential life
“If you say that “sometimes” it is okay, then you are admitting that it is OKAY, you are saying “IT IS OKAY” … therefore, you have overlooked your supposed moral opposition because you have placed a value judgment on the circumstances of conception.”
Not true – IF I was making that argument I would say that it is ok SOMETIMES. Just like it is SOMETIMES ok to kill another person…Remember the whole coming at you with a knife thing?
Take it all in.
Pro-choice, and unfortunately Obama’s position on it, is a very emotionally mature stance to take. It’s one that, well … I’m sorry, but most pro-lifers lack the understanding, empathy, and complexity (and it’s really not that complex) of making a morally conflicting choice.
Sure you can turn to the bible and say “no sex until marriage”. But those were the days, before college, before a decade of education and experience before one was even able to contribute to socity. Also the days were … people were more or less expected to be married and on with life by their teens OR their daughters were sold off to older men who scratched their itches at the local brothel until they could afford their own personal slave. Not to mention that life expectancy was short back then. In order to get offspring, you had to get knocked up, survive, and raise yourself family before you died yourself.
Mind you the personhood of the fetus was suspect many times over … and it depended on who you asked …
Got to love the bibles relevancy to modern life.
Now, we live forever, in an overcrowded planet, and raising a family “right” is difficult and expensive as fuck! The last line of defense we have is pro-choice, yet people want to use some fictious antiquitated moral code. In reality, we are on our own. When someone says, I’m only for abortion in cases of … they are doing their hypothetical “pro-choice” argument. They are saying to themselves, this is where I value personhood begins and apparently most importantly … the quality of life vs. the sanctity of life.
It truely is an emotionally complex argument, that well … it’s NOT black and white.
Pro-life, pro-gay marriage position: Encourage pregnant mothers to have their kids (with funding and other forms of help from the state), then if they choose, give the children up for adoption. Lots of gay couples out there would be more than willing to give those babies a home.
I am pro-choice. I would like there to be less abortions in this world and would like that to happen through sex education (less unwanted pregnancies in the first place).
Do you not feel that in pointing out circumstances in which you (or the law or any bible thumper) finds an abortion acceptable as saying that “in these circumstances outlined by me it is okay to have an abortion” ?
I am not denying the incredible emotion that is involved in this argument and I would definitely stand up and work with ANYONE who is willing to increase sex education, make birth control readily available, etc. as a means of decreasing the number of abortions (through decreased unwanted pregnancies).
Just because the topic is difficult and just because it is difficult for someone to admit that even these proposed circumstances are “okay” does not negate the fact that you are placing value judgments upon the CONCEPTION and not the fetus or possible life that comes from it. In choosing the life of the woman over that of the fetus you are negating original cries of “all life is equally valuable.” And allowing someone who is a victim of rape or incest to have an abortion, whether they are healthy enough to endure the pregnancy or not, does not fall under the “it’s me or the dude with the knife” argument.
I don’t think that woman should use abortion as a means of birth control, I believe that woman should take means to prevent pregnancy rather than dispose of it afterward. But I also believe that it is not for me to decide that for another woman. It is for her to decide. And I find it hypocritical that you can say that under some circumstances she has the right to decide what happens to her own body and other under circumstances she does not.
@117: There are 10,000+ children in the foster care system in Washington State. Nowhere, including the gay community, are there enough people interested in adopting the surplus of unwanted children.
I kind of figured that common ground might include things like comprehensive sex ed and readily available birth control to prevent the necessity for abortion in as many cases as possible.
Right?
I don’t agree with a number of things President Obama has done since he took office, and I don’t like the way he’s left a number of pre-campaign statements and campaign promises unfulfilled, but I am with him at least in spirit on this… polarizing this argument, stating that there can be no common ground and no compromise, only ends up ensuring that one side or the other will always torpedo any attempt to make things better in real ways as a way to punish their perceived enemies. When we supporters of abortion rights demonize its opponents and lump them all together as woman-hating, bible-thumping, frothing zealots, all it does it help normalize the woman-hating, bible-thumping, frothing zealot demographic. This results in a larger number of people who might otherwise be all for sex education and birth control being lumped into a “side” which opposes anything and everything to do with making the world safer for anyone who chooses to be sexually active in any way, even if that opposition results in massive, unconscionable harm.
Stop being a goddamned zealot. You’re only alienating everyone who isn’t just as zealous as you.
@118, here is another fun conundrum though, if a woman did look at abortion as if it was birth control, would you want her to be a parent?
@120 … but that’s where I’m dissappointed about the whole contraception thing. So many pro-lifers pay lip service to contraception and I hear so much misinformation out there just to undermine the USE of contraception. It distorts this picture that pro-lifers really just want us all to be illiterate, knocked up, and tied down.
I hear stories from people who believe that just having ONE abortion will make you sterile. Arguments from people trying to undermine the pill by saying taking the pill would make it so a potentially fertilized egg would fail to implant and thus be an abortion. Then there are people who adamantly believe the morning after pill IS effectively an abortion.
What it truely is … I don’t give a fuck anymore. By making people “feel” better and assuaging their moral infancy societ must pay dearly for it.
I personally like Obama’s stance, because it’s honest, sincere, from the heart, and real. But what frustrates me is that emotionally complicated stands like that show very little traction with time. Black and white fundalmentalism and blatant fear seems to be historically what drives this planet. It’s quite easy to disect, by describing something as difficult and complex … people can just pick it apart with easy half assed answers.
@121 Well, no, but that is not a value judgment for me to make either, man, if I chose who was allowed to breed I probably would not have chosen my own parents, but I turned out pretty fucking okay.
Maybe I stated that wrong initially, I would rather she use the pill or something like that as a means of birth control and resort to an abortion when all else fails. But, were it up to me, I would still not deny her the abortion (no matter circumstance). I am just saying that I am all for educating people to prevent the unwanted pregnancy in the first place. I am on the pill and I use condoms and if, despite those efforts, I got pregnant, I would have an abortion, and I have made my partner aware of that. But I never have been, because if there was one thing mom did right it was to tell me how not to get pregnant.
But no matter, it is her choice to make, not mine.
Thanks, ECB. That needed to be said (tho’ it won’t make a difference to anti-choice activists.)
No Take it all in, you stated it exactly right. I just took this extreme view to maybe make a point that there are people out there who feel that way, and you know … maybe making them parents is a bad bad idea.
Former tri-state, I am so confused 🙁 I am sorry, I think I must have gotten lost somewhere along the way …
I think that woman should be allowed to get abortions.
My views on the circumstances or how I feel about the reasons for which they do it don’t matter because it is none of my business why they do it.
Forcing a woman to get an abortion because you don’t feel that she would be a good mother is just as awful as forcing her to go through with a pregnancy because you have placed some inexplicable value on the non-viable thing growing within her.
Wouldn’t it be better to prevent the pregnancy in the first place?
I understand that you are trying to show me something here, but I am sorry to say that I fail to see what it is …
Also forcing a woman to have an abortion because you don’t think that she should breed is a not even an extremist “pro-choice” statement to make …
Take it all in … maybe my allergies are getting the better of me.
I think in all honesty pro-choice is the best way to go, the best thing we have.
I also know many forced fathers who didn’t exactly have the choice, but given the threat of having one person to decide to chose, vs. no choice whatsoever … Accidents do happen, and well … some women do sabotage their birth control. In a perfect universe, we would be telepathic and one with all our sexual partners … but whatever. Self righteous shoulda woulda fucks get over it! That world doesn’t exist.
How about this. I agree with pro-choice. I agree with Obama that it is personal moral dilema. But at the same time, it infuriates me because it is a personal moral dilema. Personal moral dilemas are very unpopular in this country, and get picked apart by nitwits such as fox news etc. etc. As a result there is so much misinformation that gets fed into the populace, it starts to debase birth control.
So in my opinion, I felt Obama took a very dangerous stance. It would just be easier to say to people, fine … life begins at 24 weeks or whatever, because that is easy to understand. Because, obviously science is against life beginnig at conception, it’s whatever moral attachment the individual has to the developing fetus, embryo, zygote, whatever.
And personally, I find that infurriating and frustrating and why pro-choice and pro-life don’t see eye to eye. One is desperate for a clear cut answer, and the other offers MANY answers.
And what scares me the most, is that in this culture, it seems that if you don’t use your abortion card, you lose it! So yes, I do agree reducing abortions is a great and noble cause, but in this culture of ADD history of sexuality, Back ally and botched abortions are becoming a thing of forgotten lore. Now, while we have people undermining the validity of birth control, we have others that strive to take plan B (and C) away.
Former Tri-State … well I don’t believe I disagree with you at all actually. Maybe that is where my confusion came from.
@ 98, @101 @ the people mentioning me @91.
…and thanks for making me into the straw man pro-life naive nut-job @101.
You use the pill AND condoms PROPERLY, your odds drop to almost nil. Yes, still there, just like any other activity. Also, yes, I understand the odds I’m taking. I’m not sex-phobic, I don’t believe we are destroying society with sexuality or female equality… What I’m saying is fewer abortions overall is a good thing. I don’t have a clearly defined position on this. I’m bringing up points that bother me.
…and yes, a 15 yr old pregnant naive girl… That’s why we need (I’m sure you agree with this point) better sex ed. But we’re still gonna get pregnant 15 yr olds. It sucks, it makes her life significantly more difficult than the boy who impregnated her. I realize that. But does it ruin her life? No. Does it make 9 months suck? Does it make high school embarrassing? You bet. Can she move on from it? Can’t we all from punishments from young stupidity?
I’m also not going to sit here and pretend that teenagers are all well-adjusted, or from functional families. So no, they’re not completely responsible for a poor choice. But a criminal is often the result of poor parenting, etc, and he/she suffers time in jail/juvie. Bad background is not an excuse for him/her.
By the way, I don’t know if abortions should be illegal in all but some circumstances. In fact, I’m pretty sure that would be a bad thing. However, this is an issue on which there must be discussion.
@130
1) Read Voodoo economics
2) The one who suffers the most is not society, BUT THE CHILD.
From personal experience it SUCKS watching your parents grow up. Had they waited a while, I perhaps would have been better adjusted and not so god damn anxious, frought with survivor syndrome, and in ASS LOADS of debt building my life up when my parents had nothing to offer me.
Sure I could have been given up for adoption, but that is just not emotionally possible for most people given 9 months of gestation and pregnancy induced hormones. My mother had to love me or die, fine … but most people in my situation didn’t come out so lucky. Most people in my sitution go absolutely bat shit crazy when the new baby smell wears off around adolescence and life gets really real! (Read voodoo economics) They have chemical dependency issues, they can’t hold down jobs, finish school, let alone get a god damn Ph. D.!!! I was the lucky liberal bi product, one of the few that makes it your pell grants, loans, welfare, student lunch programs. I feel forcing people to become parents, because you feel it is just … is an abomination and a crime.
@130 “But does it ruin her life? No. Does it make 9 months suck? Does it make high school embarrassing? You bet. Can she move on from it? Can’t we all from punishments from young stupidity?”
If you think that is all the repercussions that come from pregnancy and child birth/rearing then you are in for a serious shock should you decide to have children. Having a child because you got pregnant is not a punishment for getting pregnant. You are bringing another life into this world and if you are not ready (which, trust me, no 15 year old is) then you should take responsibility and end the pregnancy. What happens to said child after the birth? And yes I am referring to the baby and the 15 year old girl.
Yes my preference is less unwanted pregnancies in this world, but don’t act like it is something that you can so easily shake off. It is not a broken bone where once you remove the cast you are healed.
I volunteered in a daycare for babies of teen age mothers and trust me those children were not punishment and their lives were living Hell. If you would wish that on an innocent child with no choice who raises them then you are seriously lacking in empathy.
Do not be so naive. Have your opinions, but at least make sure they are well researched.
@132. I was not offering teenage motherhood as an option, but adoption. 15 yr old girl has baby, gives it up for adoption, and goes back to school. hormones etc certainly make it difficult, but recovering from an abortion can’t be easy either. And you and @131 have a good point. I’m NOT coming from that experience, I do NOT have much education on the adoption process.
These are my thoughts as they stand, and this is a forum on a weekly, not an academic panel.
Which brings me to your “have opinions, but make sure they are well-researched” attack. Stupid, or you can only have opinions on a small number of genres. We all make opinions on what facts we have and lack and search out new information and continue to learn and perhaps CHANGE our opinions when the information warrants. That’s why they’re opinions and not facts. I’m sure you have an opinion on social issues, economic policy, diplomacy, foreign policy, domestic policy, historical relativism, science ethics, literature, or any other number of subjects in which you do not have a doctorate. In other words, you could stand to do more research on some opinions you have. That’s why forums are so much fun. Ideally, people exchange ideas and point out weaknesses in lines of reasoning so one can learn more, and either strengthen or weaken his/her opinion. Some opinions need no research (i.e. Shooting your neighbor because he allowed a dandelion to grow is bad), but obviously there are many that do. End of off-topic soap-boxing.
@133 I give you that on the opinions vs. well researched, you are entirely correct and it was an emotional blow-off thing to say. For that I apologize.
People can try to find common ground all they want, however, they must always remember that pregnant women’s bodies are not common property and their rights should never be compromised on common ground. Furthermore, it is important for common grounders to remember that many women are not interested in any common ground with the world’s terminal paternalists for good reason; women’s lives are none of their damned business in the first place.
If common grounders really want to reduce the numbers of abortions they would move on to sexually active men who don’t like abortion. They need to convince these guys to only have sex with women who definitely want their children, even if it means some men might never get laid.
@134. Thanks. And I don’t mean to make pregnancy and kids into a “punishment,” but to make a point. I don’t want to minimize what those kids go through, wherever they end up. Abortion bothers me. I know, “don’t have one.” But murder bothers me, too. NO, they are NOT EVEN CLOSE to the same thing, in my mind, but still – it bothers me that it has to happen.
Fuck.
It bothers me that cancer has to happen, too… So that point doesn’t work.
I don’t know exactly where I’m going with this…
The “rational” argument laid out by @102 seems to lay it out somewhere I would put myself, but not quite. “Human life” isn’t what I would call it at conception…
I think the point I’m making here is that it’s a complex issue with lots to work with. Those of us not entirely comfortable with abortion aren’t necessarily fighting Roe v Wade, and the recent survey probably reflects some of that. This is an issue I have never voted on, simply because I HAVE felt my opinion didn’t have the strength of facts behind it to use I feel the way I do, my thoughts are about as clear as I can make them in these posts, and … Fuckit. I’m tired and going to bed.
@134 This is an issue I have never voted on, simply because I HAVE felt my opinion didn’t have the strength of facts behind it to use I feel the way I do, my thoughts are about as clear as I can make them in these posts, and … Fuckit.
My two closest friend who have told me about their abortions were both married and in their late twenties when they had the abortion. They were NOT the naive 15 year old so often waved in our faces: they were on the verge of divorce, had serious financial issues, and both of my friends ALREADY HAD A CHILD.
Ok: think about that: if you have a toddler it is not only virtually impossible but IRRESPONSIBLE and even selfish to consider going through a full term pregnancy and giving a child up for adoption. That real child is going to see you as a someone who gives away children. You cannot do that to a child. It is absolutely responsible to have an abortion in those circumstances and many others.
But those are not the circumstance that we’re really ever given to contemplate in these debates, it’s always some drunken giggling 15 year old who comes to stand in for all women.
Beyond that, 85% of birth mothers grieve terribly after relinquishment, many feel coerced into it, even today, because of this prolife stupidity combined with the real driver: a very powerful market for healthy newborn infants that demands a supply, and will do so as long as there are upper middle class people who feel entitled to a baby–and women who have been trained to think of abortion as murder and their own sexuality as deserving punishment.
Adoption is not some simple hearts and flowers thing that makes it all better.
@137 was that really meant for me @134? Because I am entirely pro choice.
Whether I have any adverse feelings towards anyone’s reasoning behind getting an abortion doesn’t matter, not to me, because the fact of the matter is that it is none of mine or anyone elses business why a woman gets an abortion. It is her body, her life, her decision. So you don’t need to convince me otherwise.
I also entirely agree that he is taking the idea of adoption as an option far too lightly.
My apology was merely for saying that he should research his opinions before opening his mouth. It was an emotional outburst because I feel that he can never truly understand the argument.
Oops–sorry. That was a typo; I meant to type @136. I agree that a woman’s reasoning should not matter in any of these situations. I just also wanted to make it clear that many women get abortions in very complex life situations, but the anti-choice contingent hide that complexity by creating a *mythical* ditzy 15 year old stand in for all women that is both sexist and insulting.
Yeah, I think I tend to attach to the 15 year old gone wrong scenario because I have a sibling who had a child at that age. But there are far more complex reasons for getting abortions, I certainly agree with you. Putting “pending circumstance” on abortion rights is a dangerous, painful and unfortunate way to think about abortion, or a woman’s right to take care of her own body as she sees fit in general.