NYT arts critic Alastair Macaulay:
Some correspondents have argued that the body in ballet is “irrelevant.” Sorry, but the opposite is true. If you want to make your appearance irrelevant to criticism, do not choose ballet as a career. The body in ballet becomes a subject of the keenest observation and the most intense discussion.
Imagine a critic writing the exact same lines but swap out “ballet” for “burlesque.” Would he live to tell the tale?
The treatment of gays, fairly much universally and historically, has never been pleasant. A few bits that come to mind immediately: Oscar Wilde was imprisoned for homosexuality; in France the Templars were convicted en masse on many accusations, including sodomy, leading to many executions (this was probably a merely trumped up assumption, but it shows a clear bias against homosexual behavior); 4000 individuals have been executed for homosexuality in Iran since 1979; Marquis de Sade was pursued throughout his life for a sexual relationship between himself and a male servant; in Greece and Rome the dichotomy between masculine and feminine led to the bizarre belief that it was immensely dishonorable for a man to be the recipient of penetrative sex, though his partner suffered thus in no such way (it is funny to note that some of Catallus’ friends seem to have engaged in such behavior–nevertheless); many have suffered under the grip of the Abrahamic religions’ bizarre sexual proclivities.
As gays have always been a minority group, and for a long time an unacknowledged one, it is difficult to produce exact numbers as to their mistreatment–in the same way we know very little about Horace’s family’s eviction from their property.
This one “sputtering spittle” has no intention of receiving any rationed debate on this issue and looks merely to grow by another quarter-inch his e-peen; if he were truly curious as to find exact information regarding the abuse of homosexuals in American Christianity, he would have a large body of literature to look to and would have no reason to exchange shouts anonymously. It betrays in him a sincere intellectual insincerity; he looks not to achieve consensus but for petty personal indemnification. What an asshole. He could easily begin by researching attacks upon gays in the military–some of them lethal. Again, what an asshole.
@12, 14: Dan typically finds fat/curvy people unattractive. I believe Dan’s point is that burlesque gets a free pass in showcasing people he finds unattractive when ballet doesn’t.
@47: Sure, I didn’t quote those bits. Want me to? I can if you want. Well, if you insist, mah boi!
” In a particularly brutal case, on March 14, 2007, in Wahneta, Florida, 25-year-old Ryan Keith Skipper was found dead from 20 stab wounds and a slit throat. His body had been dumped on a dark, rural road less than 2 miles from his home. His two alleged attackers, William David Brown, Jr., 20, and Joseph Eli Bearden, 21, were indicted for robbery and first-degree murder. Highlighting their malice and contempt for the victim, the accused killers allegedly drove around in Skipper’s blood-soaked car and bragged of killing him. According to a sheriff’s department affidavit, one of the men stated that Skipper was targeted because ‘he was a faggot.'”
“In Canada in 2008, police-reported data found that approximately 10% of all hate crimes in the country were motivated by sexual orientation. Of these, 56% were of a violent nature. In comparison, 38% of all racially motivated offenses were of a violent nature. In the same year in the United States, according to FBI data, though 4,704 crimes were committed due to racial bias and 1,617 were committed due to sexual orientation, only one murder and one forcible rape were committed due to racial bias, whereas five murders and six rapes were committed based on sexual orientation.”
“In 1987, a Florida judge trying a case concerning the beating to death of a gay man asked the prosecutor, ‘That’s a crime now, to beat up a homosexual?’ The prosecutor responded, ‘Yes, sir. And it’s also a crime to kill them.’ ‘Times have really changed,’ the judge replied. The judge, Daniel Futch, maintained that he was joking, but was removed from the case.”
And that’s just SOME of the shit that Wikipedia happened to put on that one site. You guys are pigs.
I’m Reconstructionist. Hardly an apostate; we follow the nitty-gritty of OUR religion a great deal more strictly than the vast majority of you lot.
@48: That’s 21 major cities. And if we’re looking at the same study, that’s only of people who went to STD clinics; hardly an unbiased sample. People of ANY sexual orientation who don’t go to STD clinics are going to be less likely to have picked up an STD. But I’ll just cuntpaste my response before for your benefit:
“Assuming that 5% of all men are gay, there are ~7,500,000 gay men in the USA. In 2008, there were an estimated 248,332 people living with AIDS, whose infection could be attributed to guy-on-guy action. This computes to 3.311 percent of all male homosexuals or bisexuals having AIDS; this is an unpleasantly high rate, but still much lower than you claim.”
@50: That was the most articulate and rational argument ever! Congratulations, Alleged, I am dumbfounded and awestruck. I bow to your superior understanding of the issue and flawless articulation of the viewpoint. Say, what’s in this drink anyway?
http://news.yahoo.com/s/dailycaller/sout…
“[Concerned Women of America president Wendy] Wright charged that many of the leading mental-health research
organizations have been taken over by gay activists and produce politically motivated statements rather than neutral, unbiased science.”
Really? When a continuous stream of peer-reviewed research proves the claims made by groups like Concerned Women of America to be false, the response is to claim all scientists are gay activists?
So, people have said the gays have taken over the arts, and now science? What’s next? The gays taking over religion?
@54 we *should* take over religion. damn mouldery stuff needs a *complete* do-over…
53
more smoke.
and mirrors.
and extraneous irrelevant bullshit.
nothing-
NOTHING
to back up the claim of murders, beatings, and harassment suffered by LGBTQ people at the hands of Christians…
you are a Bullshit Lying Bigot.
.
Obama could save a lot of money and shut down the CDC.
why do actual blood tests on homosexuals?
just let venomlast do some bullshit internet calculations and base public health policy on that…
2 years ago you girls squealed that now that a homoliberal democrap was in the white house SCIENCE would rule.
what a joke.
you are exactly like the bible literalist inventing dinosaurs in a garden of eden 6000 years ago.
making up fairy tales and calling it ‘science’.
Dinosaurs in Eden-
3.311% homosexual AIDS-
different flavors of the same IGNORANT DELUDED BULLSHIT
@56: The CDC says that its numbers are from a survey of 21 major cities. What I said is based on the population at large.
Here’s my source: http://www.avert.org/usa-statistics.htm
And here’s my reasoning: Assuming that 5% of all men are gay or bi (a reasonable figure), there are ~7,500,000 gay or bi men in the USA. Assuming that 1 in 5 has HIV, there would be 1.5 million HIV-infected gay men in the country. However, there are only ~1.1 million HIV+ people in the US; that includes infected gay men, straight men, and women. Your claim is bullshit.
Additionally, the CDC estimated 470,902 people living with AIDS (not HIV, but AIDS), and projected that 69% of them have had Teh Ghey Buttsecks. That’s about 325,000 gay or bi men with AIDS, out of a total of 7,500,000. That’s a rate of about 4.332%, roughly the same as my previous statement. (I used estimations from a different year, so the number is slightly different.)
U mad, Alleged?
And did you not even read the clear accounts of gay-bashing perpetrated by Christians? Religion is ALMOST ENTIRELY to blame when that sort of thing happens. You guys can’t be the only ones railing against homosexuality and then claim that something else is causing homophobic violence. That dog won’t hunt.
http://torchysbadnews.blogspot.com/2010/…
I think Dan here is saying, just as one wouldn’t say this about burlesque, one shouldn’t say this about ballet, especially when the dancer in question is pretty close to the unfortunate norm of ballet-dancer body proportions.
57
we’re worried for you junior.
you are incredibly thickheaded and arrogant.
that’s no way to go through life…..
in september the cdc released a new study.
new.
new information.
helpful important new information.
dan posted it.
(even dan…..)
the new york times reported it.
“Study: 20 Percent of Gay Men Have HIV, Half Don’t Know They’re Infected – New York Times
Monday, September 27, 2010″
20% of gay men have AIDS.
Half don’t know it.
it is the NEW REALITY.
EVERYONE is reporting it:
US News-
“Health Buzz: HIV Rate Among Gay Men Is 1 in 5”
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/fam…
Time magazine-
“CDC: 20% of Gay Men Are HIV-Positive, but Nearly Half Don’t Know It
Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/st…”
HuffingtonPost-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/24…
even the gay blogs in Canada got the news-
“20% of gay men have AIDS”
http://www.canadaka.net/forums/rants-rav…
despite links and being repeatedly told here on slog you still sit doing your inane asshole calculations insisting that you know better than the CDC and everybody else in the fucking world.
right.
and god created the world in 6 days 6000 years ago and t-rex roamed the garden of eden.
whatever…..
57
we’re worried for you junior.
you are incredibly thickheaded and arrogant.
that’s no way to go through life…..
in september the cdc released a new study.
new.
new information.
helpful important new information.
dan posted it.
(even dan…..)
the new york times reported it.
“Study: 20 Percent of Gay Men Have HIV, Half Don’t Know They’re Infected – New York Times
Monday, September 27, 2010″
20% of gay men have AIDS.
Half don’t know it.
it is the NEW REALITY.
EVERYONE is reporting it:
US News-
“Health Buzz: HIV Rate Among Gay Men Is 1 in 5”
http://health.usnews.com/health-news/fam…
Time magazine-
“CDC: 20% of Gay Men Are HIV-Positive, but Nearly Half Don’t Know It
Read more: http://healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/st…“
HuffingtonPost-
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/09/24…
even the gay blogs in Canada got the news-
“20% of gay men have AIDS”
http://www.canadaka.net/forums/rants-rav…
despite links and being repeatedly told here on slog you still sit doing your inane asshole calculations insisting that you know better than the CDC and everybody else in the fucking world.
right.
and god created the world in 6 days 6000 years ago and t-rex roamed the garden of eden.
whatever…..
Can somebody explain ‘burlesque’ to me – am I meant to have an erection or not?
@2:
How many examples do you have of suicide notes where gay teenagers have cited gay activists as the ones who drove them to suicide?
Since you haven’t provided any examples it’s reasonable to assume that you don’t have any, and therefore that you’re wrong.
63
how often is relationship disappointment the motivating event in gay suicide?
how often is cheating a factor it relationship breakup?
how much time does danny spend advocating cheating? (even with “permission” it is still cheating and readers of the letters to danny know that “open” relationships are just as vulnerable to the devastating damage that inevitably follows non-monogamy as any other kind…)
are we going to fast for you?
advocates of nonmonogamy who misrepresent it as harmless or even beneficial are malicious bullshit liars who contribute to an environment in which relationship betrayal and disappointment leads to suicide.
prominent advocate of all things gommorahan danny boy has his fingerprints on just as many gay suicides as any right wing fundy preacher…
63
remember-
we are talking about danny who thinks one-night-hookups are perfectly normal healthy relationship strategy….
@60, 61: You’re dumber than a bag of hammers. That study was in 21 cities rather than nationwide, had bad experimental design (only tested individuals who went to STD clinics, which is totally a biased sample), and really just means that HIV is a big problem in urban areas, something we already know. Unlike you, I know how to properly interpret experimental results. My numbers come from the CDC too. Try and tell me where my calculations are wrong.
Come at me bro.
@64: We will not take you seriously so long as you are incapable of spelling “Gomorrah”.
Also, suicide is not generally provoked by one catastrophic stressor. People offing themselves after being dumped is uncommon. What DO drive people to suicide are long-term factors such as family problems, societal rejection, or neurochemical imbalances. To quote this web site, “The teen that attempted suicide right after his girlfriend broke up with him or the teen that contemplated suicide after losing her job probably had a history of low self-worth that was magnified by the upsetting event.”
Nobody commits suicide because they broke up. You have to make them feel like dirt for years to make someone of sound mind want to die.
Ballet is a ruthless dictator of an art form. Like all dictatorships, some of it’s arbitrary rules are counterproductive to it’s goals, and it’s techniques are often detrimental to it’s subjects.
Bear in mind that all the dancers Macaulay is talking about are slightly more muscular and less emaciated than his ideal. They are not overweight, “portly,” or obese by any human standard–they are quite slim compared to most people.
I worked for the PNB many years ago and it was common knowledge that all the dancers pretty much lived on black coffee, diet Coke, and cigarettes. At the time I couldn’t understand how athletes who worked out all day every day would need to go to such extremes to stay skinny–and unhealthy–when athletes in other fields were notorious for consuming huge quantities of food during training. Now I think that most of the dancers are in starvation mode and their bodies are used to operating on extremely low-calorie diets. I wonder what would happen if there was a culture of nourishing strong bodies in ballet (and gymnastics and figure skating) like there is in most sports.
@68: Then those events would lose their audience, and their money, because they’d be about athletics, and would no longer be about showcasing the most “attractive” female bodies. Why did you think people were interested?
@59: I could be wrong, but from previous posts, Dan’s not exactly a fan of the fat acceptance movement, so I think he thinks we should say it about burlesque. Let’s face it, that “unfortunate norm” is pretty damn good looking.
99.9% of straight men don’t give a tiny, balled shit about ballet, and pay zero attention to it, so it is essentially women and gay men who all these emaciated women are trying to please. So, 68/69, if you want to change how ballet dancers eat, and get them to put on weight, get straight men involved.
We straight dudes don’t like those skinny, ugly chicks in fashion magazines or anything else. Sure we love ourselves some nice supermodels like Cindy Crawford or other chicks with round tits and apple-bottom ass, but not those clothes-hangers filling most pages.
In short, if you want thicker chicks, get straight guys involved. We don’t like fat chicks, but we sure don’t like skinny ones either. We like them healthy. You want young women to be freaked-out skeletons with eating disorders? Easy! Just put screamingly gay queens and angry middle-aged bitches in charge of shit. Then watch the bulimia happen.
In Burlesque the performer is also the choreographer is also the costume designer is also the stage hand. His or her body type is part of the number and artistic vision. In ballet the performer is a highly trained instrument for channeling the director’s artistic vision. The more athletic they are and the more they can do, the better the part they get. I’ve never been a performer, I hope that’s a fair assesment.
@70: Word, bro.
#69
When was the last time you were at a professional ballet performance? The female ballet dancers that the NYT critic prefers? Yeah, up close, they are NO ONE’S idea of physical beauty. They are skeletal, with legs that are simultaneously scarily muscular and thin as rails, with large knobby warped feet. You can see every bone in their hands, which look too big for their bodies because their arms are so damn skinny. Their ribs are apparent. In fact, often you can count ’em from the balcony. Oh, and they smoke like chimneys. They are usually close to 6′ tall, too, so the skinniness is even weirder.
I used to work for a theatre through which the Russian Ballet came every year. I looked at those women (I never saw a single one of them ever eat anything) and I thought how weird it must be to have your heaven and your hell exist in the same place…
Anyway, people don’t go to see ballet for the attractive chicks. Same goes for gymnastics, unless they’re pederasts…
Besides, the more muscular ballet dancers that the NYT critic (and the Russian Ballet, incidentally) thinks are an abomination? THEY are hot. They are hot the same way that all male ballet dancers are hot: long lean taut muscle. They are a joy to behold.
I’m with 68. It would be nice if ballet (and gymnastics) encouraged strong athletic bodies instead of weirdly warped ones.
@70, 73: I guess I’m just part of that weird minority of straight guys that finds tall and skinny women ridiculously attractive. Who knew it was that strange?