I was listening to the radio yesterday morning and I heard your interview with Beth McDonald. I have been thinking about it a lot since then and I feel compelled to share my thoughts with you. I was saddened and frustrated with your comments regarding people of faith and their perpetuation of bulling. As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage I can honestly say I was heartbroken to hear about the young man that took his own life after being humiliated by people who should have known better. I think you need to be aware of your own prejuduces and how they might play into your thinking. At best I think your comments were hypocritical.

If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)? There is no part of me that took any pleasure in what happened to that young man and I know for a fact that is true of many other people who disagree with your viewpoint. Please be aware that your words are powerful and people are listening to you.

To that end, to imply that I would somehow encourage my children to mock, hurt, or intimidate another person for any reason is completely unfounded and offensive. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death “so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda.”

Please consider your viewpoint and please be more careful with your words in the future.

L. R.

I’m sorry your feelings were hurt by my comments.

No, wait. I’m not. Gay kids are dying. So let’s try to keep things in perspective: fuck your feelings.

A question: do you support atheist marriage? Interfaith marriage? Divorce and remarriage? All legal, of course, and there’s no Christian movement to deny marriage rights to atheists or people marrying outside their respective faiths or to people divorcing and remarrying. Why the hell not?

billyjustinashercody.jpg

Being told that they’re sinful and that their love offends God, and being told that their relationships are unworthy of the civil right that is marriage (not the religious rite that some people use to solemnize their civil marriages), can eat away at the souls of gay kids. It makes them feel like they’re not valued, that their lives are not worth living. And if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay, the anti-gay bigotry you espouse makes them doubt that their parents truly love them—to say nothing of the gentle “savior” they’ve heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.

The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality—even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way (at least when they happen to be addressing a gay person)—learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered, and unworthy. And while there may not be any gay adults or couples where you live, or at your church, or at your workplace, I promise you that there are gay and lesbian children in your schools. You may only attack gays and lesbians at the ballot box, nice and impersonally, but your children have the option of attacking actual real gays and lesbians, in person, in real time.

Real gay and lesbian children. Not political abstractions, not “sinners.” Real gay and lesbian children.

The dehumanizing bigotries that fall from lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays, give your straight children a license to verbally abuse, humiliate and condemn the gay children they encounter at school. And many of your straight children—having listened to mom and dad talk about how gay marriage is a threat to the family and how gay sex makes their magic sky friend Jesus cry himself to sleep—feel justified in physically attacking the gay and lesbian children they encounter in their schools. You don’t have to explicitly “encourage [your] children to mock, hurt, or intimidate” gay kids. Your encouragement—along with your hatred and fear—is implicit. It’s here, it’s clear, and we can see the fruits of it.

Oh, and those same dehumanizing bigotries that fill your straight children with hate? They fill your gay children with suicidal despair. And you have the nerve to ask me to be more careful with my words.

Did that hurt to hear? Good. But hearing it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what the boys in the photo above had to listen to—day-in, day-out, for years—at schools filled with bigoted little monsters created not in the image of a loving God, but in the images of the hateful and false “followers of Christ” they call “mom and dad.”

And now a song…

P.S.: The religious right points to the suicide rate among gay teenagers—which the religious right works so hard to drive up (see above)—as evidence that the gay lifestyle is destructive. It’s like intentionally running someone down with your car and then claiming that it isn’t safe to walk the streets.

Which is why I argued that every gay teen suicide is a victory for the religious right. Because, you see, your side does use those suicides to “perpetuate [your] agenda.” Tony Perkins and all those other oddly effete defenders of “Chrisitian values” and “traditional marriage” will point to this recent spate of gay teen suicides to argue against gay marriage, anti-bullying programs, against allowing gay people to serve in the military—basically, they’ll gleefully use these tragedies to justify what they like to call the “Christian, pro-family agenda.”

But right now Tony Perkins is being strangely silent. Why is that? Could it be that even Tony Perkins has a conscience? Nah, couldn’t be that. He must be away on vacation.

I wonder who’s lifting his luggage.

465 replies on “SL Letter of the Day: Almost Sorry”

  2. Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior.

    How about looking in a mirror and taking responsibility for your own actions.

  4. Three typos in your post, Dan. Otherwise, right on. The difference between legal and “sanctified” marriage can’t be over-emphasized.

  7. I agree with you about the most vocal of Christians, but let me make a point about a few denominations in the Protestant faith – the United Church of Christ (UCC), Disciples of Christ (DOC), and the Unitarians (sometimes called Unitarian Universalists). I am a member of the UCC, and some on the right do claim we are not Christians, simply because we believe in social justice, as Christ compels us to do. And we fully endorse gay marriage, we ordain gay clergy (I know several personally). So while the majority of Christians are bigoted, there are a few of us good ones out there who fully support the GLBTQ community out there.

  8. ” I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death “so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda”.
    as a black gay person of faith..i have personally encountered and known people who feel otherwise and for that that reason alone..and by evangelicals and fundamnetalists who seek to advance their agenda of soul winning and saving. i’ve been victimized by shame and condemnation from evangelicals, personally and sexually abused by clergy, despised by people who ‘love the sinner and hate the sin ‘.that i’ve managed to maintain and exercise my own faith is fairly miraculous considering this. on this one point ( the subject of this post) i think that if fellow christians can not step forward and advocate the rights of these kids, and adult people like them.. these people they claim to love even while they disagree with them.. then i will continue to join the chorus of dan and others who say fuck your feelings…suck it up listen, learn, and do better.
    yours ( sincerely ) in christ,
    riz

  11. way to go Dan – as a child of southern Baptists, the hateful things i was taught at church were far more damaging to my own young gay psyche than any bullying i received at school

  12. Wow, Dan. That was well said.

    I think I’ve commented here enough that you know I am a follower of Christ (I almost hate to use the term “Christian” anymore because of the connotation it has gained). I support same sex marriage, and I abhor discrimination, violence, and bullying in whatever form it takes.

    I don’t understand how people who read the same book I read can reach very different conclusions than the ones I reach. In the Gospels, neither the writers, nor Jesus, nor any of the other characters make any mention of homosexuality. Granted, there are several mentions in the writings attributed to Paul and Timothy, but some of those writings also espouse women keeping their heads covered when they worship and celibacy. Very few groups follow those commands, yet they insist that the language about homosexuality be obeyed to the letter.

    The way I figure it, the God I know, the God who is infinitely loving, who gives second chances whenever I screw up (and God knows I screw up a lot), who insipires me to want to live my life in love for everyone, isn’t going to deny someone the chance to find a partner, to find the love of their life, and spend many happy years together. The God of Love isn’t going to say that love is meant for everyone but 10% or so of the population.

    So, I’ll go on believing in God, because I can’t not believe. I’ll go on trying to be welcoming to everyone, trying to love everyone. And I’ll go on speaking out when others who call themselves Christians say hateful things about “the other,” whether that means people of a differnet race, creed, ethnicity, or sexual orientation. That’s What Jesus Would Do (to paraphrase every piece of religious kitsch made in the 90’s.).

  13. Thank you so much, Dan. I have no problems with religion so long as people don’t use them to condemn others. Hammer through the religious bullshit.

  15. way to go Dan – as a child of Southern Baptists, the hate i was taught at church was far more damaging to my young, gay psyche than any bullying at school

  17. Thank you so much, Dan. I have no problems with religion so long as people don’t use it to condemn others. What a selfish thing to do. Just keep hammering through the religious bullshit.

  18. DS, You’ve started a groundswell this week, and have done more to alleviate suffering than most people do in a lifetime. Good work, Weepy.

  19. Dan thinks homosexual behavior is peachy keen.
    Also adultery.
    And premarital sex.
    And having children outside marriage.
    All peachy keen.
    Despite the FACT that all carry high social costs.
    Misery.
    Suffering.
    Unhappiness.
    Broken lives and unfulfilled dreams.
    Dan desperately wants to believe that if everyone would just embrace
    the deviancy and perversion like he does
    it would make all the bad effects go away.
    *poof!*
    no more AIDS.
    no more suicide.
    no more homosexual domestic abuse.
    no more ChickenHawks exploiting young boys.
    Camelot.
    Or rather, Gommorah.

    EMBRACE IT!

    In Dan’s world people who refuse to embrace
    irresponsible dangerous sexual behavior are BIGOTS.
    THEY are the problem.

    Danny-
    What is the suicide rate among homosexual adult men in homofriendly San Francisco?
    The AIDS rate?
    If all the “Christians” in the world disappeared tomorrow your world would be the same.
    Homosexuality would still be a soul sucking emotional dead end.
    STDs, old familiar ones and yet to be discovered terrors you can’t imagine,
    still an inescapable omnipresent fact of homosexual life.
    Emotional and medical suffering are the INEVITABLE consequences of deviant behavior.

    Actually, your world wouldn’t be quite the same if Christians disappeared-
    you would either have to face the truth or find a new scapegoat.

    It is so much easier to blame Someone Else.

  20. Fuck your feelings, and fuck faith. Faith is the deliberate and willful suspension of critical thinking; the time is long past to stop affording people undeserved respect or deference based on their ridiculous, willfully ignorant superstitions.

  21. It’s illogical to hate a group of people who (a) can’t change what they are and (b) are hurting *no one*. It might very well be logical to hate a group of people who *choose* to believe in an irrational set of principles that they use to justify denying others their rights. I’m *allowed* to dislike people for their beliefs if those beliefs are batshit crazy, and they band together to deny others their rights.

    Faith doesn’t get a pass. “It’s my religion” doesn’t justify bigotry.

  22. I hate the stupidity of the claim that we shouldn’t judge people based on their faith. Of course we can judge people’s opinions and beliefs, which are a result of thought, and choice, unlike race, sex, gender, and sexuality. Truth isn’t subjective, and we should be allowed to voice our disagreement or disapproval of other’s opinions, be they faith-based or not.

    A person’s professed faith tells me definite things about their beliefs and world-view, whereas race, etc. don’t. They’re not the same thing.

  28. You’re out of luck, LR. You’re guilty. You have two choices A) recognize that by supporting discrimination you condone abuse by maintaining that a segment of our population is unworthy and second class, or B) go take your “persecuted” feelings somewhere else. The truth hurts. There is only one moral and ethical response to discrimination and that is to denounce it. You will never be justified by claiming that your “faith” permits you to discriminate. Any person who supports discrimination and unequal civil equality is a bully. You’re a bully, L.R. Perhaps, you’re a tender hearted one, but on your present path you’re a bully. And, there is no way of saying that nicely. I’m ashamed to be associated with you and I pity you for your present state.

  29. When you are on Dan, you are ON. At the risk of 5280 calling me a brown-noser again (sticks and stones, buddy), my old English major soul is remembering the following:
    “What oft was thought but ne’er so well expressed”

  30. As long as both sides of this gay marriage debate continue to yell AT each other & spew venom AT each other like you’re doing here (one side says it’s a civil right, the other side says it’s a re-definition of a word, and BOTH sides continue to tell each other to go fuck themselves), NOBODY wins. Hate begets hate.

    …Oh, but wait, weren’t you all calling for Dan Savage to be awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his video project? Riiiight…. A man of peace. Suuuuuch peace.

  31. @30: The funniest aspect of your commentary here on Slog is that you actually take yourself seriously while begging an invisible and unsustainable “middle ground” that only the dimmest of wits would ever believe existed.

  32. @39..
    this isn’t a debate about marriage . it’s a conversation arising from the fact that people are dying, children mostly, from hatred and abuse.
    stay on topic fucker.

  34. As I have been told by so many well meaning Christians trying to save my atheist soul “God is love”. If that were true, that God and Jesus really are all about love, why would they condemn adults who love each other just because the genitals they have happen to be the same? It makes no sense to me that a loving God could condemn anyone to eternal torture for loving the wrong person but welcome into paradise a serial killer who made a death bed conversion.

  38. @30 – and your advice is to turn the other cheek, I assume?

    That response didn’t sound hateful to me, aside from the “Fuck your feelings” part. Is he not allowed to explain to the woman (man? – it’s so hard to tell with Christians) how she is setting a bad example for her children, and the consequences therein?

  39. In simple terms (and it’s been said many, many times before), faith is a choice, sexual “preference” is not. Invading a person’s privacy for your own perverted enjoyment, telling other people how to live their lives, and condemning them when they don’t obey; these are choices, and they are choices that oppress and hurt other people. I’ve never heard a gay person tell a christian to stop practicing their religion, but I’ve heard plenty of christians tell others how to behave. Go and practice Matthew 7: 1-5.

  40. You don’t have to support gay marriage any more than you have to support civil rights or women’s rights. As a female mother in a bi-racial marriage, I get to see and experience discrimination regularly from all fronts. The great thing about America is that you can believe whatever you want, no matter how bigoted, hypocritcal, fantastic, or criminally wrong. However, you CANNOT infringe upon the rights of others, and until there is legislation in place maintaining the rights of the gay community as FULL CITIZENS of the USA, including the right to marry and to protected status, then we will scream back.

    Not taking pleasure in someone’s death or discrimination does not mean that your very belief systems and actions didn’t participate in the culture that caused it. Should you choose to believe that being gay is a sin and that gay marriage is disturbing the sacrosanct institution of heterosexual marriage, then don’t engage in it. But don’t fool yourself into believing that your way is the only way, and then interfere with how others are living their life. It is unfortunate that those with the loudest voices, are also the ones who want to interfere with everyone unlike them the most. The Christian agenda is loud and clear – and currently, it’s driving teenage children to suicide. This isn’t just about bullying, it is about the entire dialogue we surround our youth with. And to make anyone feel unwanted, unloved, and unnecessary just for being who they are is a crime in itself. What would Jesus do with this situation? Not this.

  41. “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it you would have good people doing good things and evil people doing evil things. But for good people to do evil things, that takes religion.” — Steven Weinberg

  43. I am a recovering Catholic, and I work at a Jesuit college in San Francisco. The social justice message is strong here, with big support for gay rights (which you might expect from San Francisco, but don’t be fooled: there’s as many bigots as gays and lesbians in this city).

    What I appreciate is that for many folks here, rights of gays and lesbians are important BECAUSE of their religious beliefs and not despite them. There’s no real reason why Catholicism at large can’t be like the Jesuits. Except maybe for that Pope guy. No wonder after 6 years working here and appreciating the mission and values of the school, I still haven’t come close to going back to mass.

  44. Thank you, Dan.

    L.R. You do not get to work to deny people the same civil rights that you enjoy and then whine when those same people and their supporters tell you how much that hurts and how destructive.

    Lest you think I’m a hypocrite, I am similarly intolerant of those who would deny civil rights to women, people of color and so on.

    Finally, that you would undertake the work of oppression in Jesus name makes you all the more pathetic in my eyes. Did that hurt your feelings? Too damn bad.

  45. Until both sides stop taking shots at each other and protect and teach our children to respect the rights, beliefs and simple humanness of each other we aren’t going to stop this mess. I’m sick and tired of hearing about “those horrible Christians” (which is NOT what Dan said in this post) and “the subversive gay agenda.” Kids are dying because they bully because that is what is modeled for them by the adults in their lives who name call and bully each other–Christians and SLOG commentators alike. Dan’s project is making a positive difference. How else are we going to step up?

    http://www.pacerteensagainstbullying.org… and http://www.tolerance.org/activity/bullyi… are great places to start.

  46. The religious have plenty of rights @tired #45. But giving the religious respect or deference because of the faith-based, frankly idiotic fictions they claim to believe in is exactly what we should NOT do.

  47. Dan’s strong feelings are understandable, but I find this over the top. I didn’t see anywhere where the writer said it’s a sin to be gay, only that he/she doesn’t support gay marriage. Though I *do* support gay marriage and am agnostic, I’m sure there are decent and thoughtful Christians who just need a little education rather than vicious condemnation, and being lumped together with the Christianist bigots who give Christianity a bad name.

  50. @34: Jesus absolutely does not condemn gay people. He does have a LOT of angry words for legalistic religious leaders (who condemned him, for example, for healing on the Sabbath, which is supposed to be a day of rest). What Sheryl @12 said. It would be better to call these gay-haters “Christianists” (as Andrew Sullivan does) or “Pharisees” (well meaning, but short-sighted legalistic religious sticklers). They have their eye on the minor violations (“She had shrimp for dinner!” when it may have been the only thing she had to eat) and ignore the larger message: “Love the Lord with all your strength, and heart, and mind, and your neighbor as yourself.” The true Christian is a humble person of love who prays alone, and shows her love for Christ by feeding, clothing and housing the hungry, naked and poor and consoling the outcast and the imprisoned.

  51. “Until both sides stop taking shots at each other …”

    Both sides? We’re just defending ourselves. If Christians embraced gays and lesbians as a legitimate part of the human family, this discussion would be over.

  53. @52, 48 is snarking on the Anderson Cooper interview with the weirdly twisted Asst. Attorney General guy from Michigan. (In case your question was, itself, not sarcasm)

  54. Hey L.R., INCOMING!

    I hope you’re feeling better after this Dan. I’m not even sick and I feel better. And FYI, there isn’t so much as a hint of anything super extra sucky about this.

  55. “I have never in my life know[n] someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people… so that we can perpetuate our own agenda”

    Now see, that, right there, is a lie.

    And, how exactly is Dan hypocritical?

  57. “magic sky friend”…hilarious. Made me laugh out loud, for which I am grateful.

    I don’t know how many more of these suicides I can take. The anger I hold that everyone isn’t fucking screaming in the streets about this makes my chest hurt. It’s like a horror show that people don’t even recognize.

  58. @19

    So we should look to religion for help with our sexual crises?

    The Catholic Church and a number of other Christian organizations are actively campaigning against condom use in Africa. Are actively trying to keep comprehensive sex education out of American schools. Are Actively trying to criminalize miscarriages. Some were even actively pushing a bill that would condemn homosexuals to death in Uganda (I’m talking about American Christians).

    Dan argues for sexual honesty (to others and to yourself), and being safe and mature, so that people have healthier, more satisfactory (sex) lives, rather than restricting your sexuality with outdated and, frankly, useless social stigmas that do nothing but make people feel guilty for doing the things that should make them feel ecstatic.

    You are living in a dream world, a shitty one. And I don’t envy you for it. But stop spreading your misery and repression around, because you’re not saving anyone with it.

  59. @53 I guess too subtle a joke. I just can’t get that interview out of my head. Especially since Anderson was showing no anger whatsoever.

  62. I’m late to this thread, but god damn. That is some righteous f*cking wrath coming from Dan. Someone from the networks give him some air time NOW. We need some un-f*ucking-apologetic fire-breathing straight talk on this issue and we need it badly. It’s time for another Cooper/Savage/Perkins throwdown, and I want to see that motherfucker Perkins exposed as the psychotic closeted self-hating freak that he is. Dan, call CNN!

    Ahem. And, um, well-written post, Mr. Savage. Carry on.

  63. Dead on Dan. Sometimes I think the nicest-sounding bigots do the most damage.

    “Oh what a sweet girl you are. Too bad you’re going to burn in hell for all eternity because you are an unrepentant sinner who commits acts against god and is worthless to society, but I love you anyway. Want a cookie?”

  64. A further note to “L.R.”

    All of us homos, or at least the very great vast majority of us, are products of heterosexual partnerships. I’m going to go out on a limb and say not just partnerships, but marriages. I was. I had a mom and a dad, married in a church wedding many years before I was born. I was raised in a very religious family – church every week, youth group, retreats, VBS. So for me your shtick of “I love the Lord but am against gay marriage” falls really fucking flat. You know why? Because my parents, and my many religious family members, also love the Lord – but they are fully supportive of civil marriage rights for gay couples – including my and my husband’s marriage. I feel very, very fortunate to be surrounded by family that support me without the qualifications or judgment that you apparently have.

    BTW your ‘love the sinner hate the sin’ thing is really, really tired. We’ve heard it all before, and I’m gonna guess that many of us are here to tell you take that and well, shove it. Too many ‘followers of Christ’ are out there abusing gay people because of their faith. If you have the guts, stand up to your Christian brethren. Abandon your prejudice, and live like Christ would have – have the courage to stick up for those who can’t defend themselves, without your duplicitous cowardice. Kids are dying – if you’re really a Christian, put the suffering ahead of yourself and try to do something about it. That’s what I was taught at church.

  65. I have heard the anguish in my friends voices in high school when they were getting gay bashed (1977-1981 for me), I have cried myself to sleep with bruises on my back, face and hands. I have felt the anguish of my insides hurting after being raped by two boys. I have felt small, helpless worthless.

    I have been told I am going to hell by the very priests of the Catholic Church I belonged to, in confession about my rape, and my confessions of my orientation. I have seen one courageous priest help me and then leave the priesthood out of despair.

    Think of the bigotry, the hate, and the misery we are put through by “well meaning” and God fearing christians.

    I grew up, I lived…and living well is the best revenge. But, damn you and your ilk for setting a shitty example, for using the message of faith in an evil, twisted way. Fuck the Fred Phelpses of this world. the Jim Dobsons; fuck them slowly with a chainsaw.

    Get on your knees and beg for forgiveness from your lord and saviour, because I will be damned if I forgive any of you sick fucks for the sheer hell you put gays and lesbians through.

    After all of the suicides of gay kids, I am not in a particularly forgiving or favorable mood.

  66. Dan, you summed up everything I was thinking in the second paragraph of your reply. Your entire response should be broadcast on every television network in the world as a Public Service Announcement!

  67. A fucking men, Dan.

    I’ve been reading your columns for years for precisely this reason. It’s not our job, as GLBT people, to mollycoddle and try to couch the truth of how shitty it is to be GLBT youth in unhurtful terms. If your (oppressive, majority) faith produces hateful bigots that drive children to suicide, it’s YOUR FUCKING PROBLEM, not mine. It’s not the job of the oppressed party to EVER try to explain or be nice about their oppression. Fuck ’em if the truth hurts. It’s still the fuckin’ truth.

  69. At first I thought you were being too hard, then I reread that she does not support gay marriage. The pain she feels is probably her God telling her to examine her feelings and prejudices toward her neighbour. If God loves us all equally, and created us for loving relationships, then gay marriage is every bit as right as heterosexual marriage. The pain she feels is infinitesimal compared to crushing shame delivered ceaselessly by bigots and bullies and ignorant haters emboldened by a book with variations and translations (because not even just one version is “satisfactory enough” for people). Even her Lord was on the cross for only three hours. I hope she re-examines her attitudes and walks into the light of reason.

  70. @45

    Fuck tolerance. The reason we have the situation we are in is that we liberals suck the idea of “tolerance” with our mothers’ organic breastmilk. Tolerance is bullshit.

    You know what I have no tolerance for? Hatred of others based soley on who they choose to love. I don’t tolerate assholes who tell kids they will burn in hell if they touch themselves. I don’t tolerate dirty old men with hate themselves and everyone else so much that the only way they can get off is buttfucking helpless little boys. I have even less tolerance when those same motherfuckers oppose the distribution of condoms that will save tens of thousands of lives.

    What else? I don’t tolerate it when self-important, entitled little fucks, pumped up with self esteem by their hateful “christian” helicopter parents, drive confused, sad, sensitive kids to kill themselves by demeaning them, hitting them, spitting on them, spying on them, raping them and perpetrating thousands of other cruelties day in day out. The stupidest thing I have heard said is that “These situations are a tragedy for everyone involved.” Fuck that shit. These situations are a tragedy for the victims. The perpetrators are a waste of air.

  71. Letter Writer, you display all manner of failures of logic.

    “If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?”

    In other words, if we should not judge based on sexual preference, we shouldn’t judge based on ANYTHING? How stupid is that? Using your logic, we shouldn’t judge rapists, or murdererers, or drunk drivers, or war profiteers, or people who sneak videos of their roommates having sex and post them on the Internet, harshly. Idiot, not all criteria are equal. Unless you think that homosexuality is indistinguishable in its level of evil from genocide, which is also indistinguishable from killing someone while driving drunk, which is also indistinguishable from driving cold sober? Honestly, how many brain cells does it take to work that out?

    Homosexuals harm noone. (No, not even themselves.) Your attitude and legislative activities harm homosexuals. You, with your “someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage,” you are allying yourself with that harm. YOU ARE DOING THE GREATER HARM. That’s why you get the harsher judgement.

    “We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.”

    In that case “we” cannot believe that our love is somehow better or more worthy than the love that someone else experiences, and therefore you have no justification for claiming that your marriage is more worthy of the recognition afforded by the covenant of marriage than gay marriage is. You cannot claim to be all sinners fallen together, and then expect to be able to have privileges that you then systematically deny to others who are down in the same trench with you. You can’t have it both ways.

    Finally, your No True Scotsman fallacy is duly noted. Go look it up. Then kick yourself good and hard for using it so witlessly, start actually denouncing the people who do all the things you deplore while still daring to call themselves Christians, and resolve to be a better critical thinker in future.

  73. Dan, all day at work I have been thinking about these 5 kids that we know have died recently and all the other ones that we haven’t heard about, and the one refrain that has been going through my head was “STOP KILLING OUR KIDS”. Then I got off work, sat down in front of the computer and found that you had put voice to my thoughts, and did so in the best Savage manner. Thank you, dear.

    You, Sir, are truly a fierce advocate worthy of the title. God bless you.

  75. @47: Whether the letter writer thinks being gay is a “sin” or not is entirely irrelevant. I don’t give two shits what someone thinks in the privacy of their own skull.

    What is important is that gays are being denied LEGAL rights enjoyed by the rest of the citizenry, despite being ostensibly citizens on the same level with everyone else. If the Letter Writer does not support gay marriage, then he(she?) is lending support to a state of second-class citizenship. Yes, it really is that simple.

  77. In my precious America, we have separation of Church and State. Here, the freedom which that represents means marriage may be ONLY a legal contract, one which stands in for many dozens of others.

    Two people with matching DNA may legally marry in every state as of this minute. Why should some poor overworked jaded shlub of a clerk have to care what’s in the pants of ANY couple who come for a license?

    And, repeated: draft the straight kids to stop bullying in favor of sticking it to the Man. Sit-ins R fun.

    Let me say I told you so, already. And sit up straight or your face will freeze that way.

  81. L.R. you are playing to the wrong room. And given a choice between you wishy washy, limp dick Christians like you trying to ride both sides of the fence and young gay people repeatedly and helplessly tormented by bully assholes that fly your flag… I used to be a homophobe. This kind of horseshit is what changed my mind. Eat a bag of shit, L.R.

  86. Fuck your faith and your hurt feewings, LR. Dan is right on about this – you’re an adult with a moral responsibility to your own conscience, not just to whatever “evil” your herd is pointing at at this moment in time. If your faith is hurting people, you have a moral responsibility to see that and change it or abandon it.

    You can’t call someone “wrong,” call them a “sinner” and call an inextricable part of what they are “vile” or “deviant” and damn them to eternal torment and then pretend to be sad when they die. It doesn’t add up. We’re social creatures, and people die when they’re vilified and ostracized, and you are vilifying and ostracizing them. Fuck you.

    Right fucking on, Dan.

  87. Dan. It actally isn’t suicide. The youngster may ‘trigger’ and end his or her life, but the radiical religous bigoted right loaded the gun. Words are
    weapons, and hate speech can kill. So, let us refer to it as what it really is. Murder. Robin Tyler

  89. 100%, Dan. We’re winning. We’ll lose a few, and that’s a tragedy, but we will win.

    I say “we” because this whole business doesn’t have anything to do with gay or straight. There’s no difference, really. Those poor dead boys aren’t just sad news for the gays, they’re a loss for all of us, and these freaks who think they have “feelings” that mean something in the face of this little blast of hate we’re weathering are losing too.

    L. R. needs to check herself, there’s not a shred of Christ in there.

  91. Gotta say I love what you do, Dan. I love your heart and your bravery. I love your edge. It works for me because I trust your heart.

    Thanks for all that you do.

  93. LR, most people don’t negatively judge people of faith. They negatively judge people of bigotry. There is a huge and important distinction. There are many very faithful people (of numerous religions, including Christianity), who do not support bigotry. They support full equal rights for homosexuals, bisexuals, and so forth. However, some people are bigots. Many of those bigots desperately try to use the Bible to justify their bigotry, even though the Bible doesn’t really support it, but there is a huge history of using the Bible to support bigotry (it’s been used to support racism and slavery, which it doesn’t support well either – it does, however, support sexism quite well, so if you want to be sexist, you can get good Biblical support for that). Many people find this offensive, however, really, it’s not that that bothers most people, but the bigotry itself. I assure you, if a large number of atheists were openly promoting bigotry that people would be against that too. The faith really isn’t the important issue. This issue is just tied with faith because there is no rational reason to oppose gay rights, so people keep stating that their faith justifies it, which makes people have to go against “people of faith”, but it’s just the bigots that most reasonable people oppose. I quite like many people of faith who are not bigoted.

  95. Christians are in love w/ playing the victim & manipulating out of weakness. It’s how their religion began. You can’t remove this dynamic from the religion & still call it “Christianity.”

    LR tries to play the victim & accuses Dan of being some big, scary, hate-monger. Yes, it is true that there are Christians who accept & support GLBT. But they’re a drop in the bucket and are too busy turning the other cheek & humbly accepting their lot to do anything substantial. Waiting for the Christians to stop their hatemongering brethren is like waiting for America to rejoin Britain: It ain’t gonna happen.

    Dan’s response is the proper one for people who try to play the victim and manipulate out of weakness: Fuck You. It hurts your feelings? Sucks to be you, then.

  96. Hmm…

    “As someone who loves the Lord and does not support gay marriage…”

    is later followed by the statement,

    “We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.”

    So, civil rights like the right to marry don’t count, as far as this not believing you’re better or more worthy than others? Because those two mindsets seem in direct opposition to one another to me. But maybe I’m a bit biased, what with coming from a religious background and doing away with Christianity after realizing how inherently hypocritical, hateful, misogynistic, outdated, and ridiculous it all was.

  99. “Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior.” Warped. Disingenuous. Stupid.

    If you want to know what Christ saw as his “above all” read the Sermon on the Mount. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. That’s the heart of the Gospel. All the rest is BS you learned in church. As Woody Allen once said: “If Jesus came back and saw what was going on his name, he’d never stop throwing up.”

    That said, there are thoughtful, intelligent Christians who get it right. I actually had a very good experience with the Christian Church, Disciples of Christ, growing up, although I don’t belong to any church today. The Disciples were and are committed to diversity in all ways, and even in the 70s and 80s were gay and lesbian-inclusive. I had positive and affirming relationships as a teen with gay and lesbian pastors whose goal was not to cure me, but to, as with anyone, help ease my way in this world, teach me empathy, and affirm my humanity with love and friendship.

    This was in Speedway, Indiana, by the way.

    That community of acceptance got me through my awkward and turbulent teens relatively unscathed.

    I agree with Dan’s focus on the Christianist haters. They deserve to be called out. But here’s a shout-out to the good people at Speedway Christian who embraced me as a whole person in my youth and affirmed that person wholly with love, kindness, and acceptance, and, above all, taught me to do unto others as I would have them do unto me.

  100. Dan, I love that you call out the haters for their bullshit. Just please be careful about painting all people of faith with that same brush. I’m a UU seminarian, and I’m one of the good guys. I also know that there are lots of really good, compassionate people of faith out there. UUs are pretty much universally supportive of glbt issues. So are Quakers. A majority of UCC churches are welcoming and supportive, and I know lots of queer clergy in all kinds of other faiths.

    Yes, call out the hates for their stuff. But please don’t paint all people of faith with that same brush. Thanks for the good work. Love the video project!

  103. I must confess to my own religious bigotry. I think anyone who’s religious is a superstitious idiot.

    Especially people who say shit like:

    “Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior.”

  105. @71: “your No True Scotsman fallacy is duly noted.”

    Bwa-ha! Thanks for mentioning this! (Too bad L.R. is almost certainly not reading all these comments.)

  106. wanna know why it eats at the children and not the adults that marry.. because they are children.
    how can you say that the children should be as strong as the adults that know what they are doing when they marry?

  107. wanna know why it eats at the children more than the adult that knew what they were doing when they marry “sinfully”. because they are children..

  110. Brilliant, Dan. Thanks a million for saying so well everything that I would have struggled to express to the LW and to all other religious bigots of his/her ilk, who are so stupid that they think we can’t see the contradictions in their message of hate, not love.

    Thank you for being born (and thanks to your parents for having brought you into this world). You do more good than all of those bigoted christians put together.

  111. Thank you Dan. I am not religious but spiritual and beleive that Jesus would not have turned his back on anyone. Many are so tied up with their so-called values which are based on faith but seem to completely miss the point of what it means to be a good Christain, Or a good “anything”. Goodness is what counts not your faith. If you are a good person, compassionate, helpful, and all other good qualities I do not care what your sexual orientation is or anything else. Children are “killing” themselves because they feel worthless. I have not known anyone that is gay/lesbian that wanted to be “homosexual”. Why would they? Hate, unfortunately is alive and well.

  114. As a straight who grew up immersed and overwhelmed by the idiocy, bigotry, hatefulness, and aggression of the bible-thumping “religious right,” directed toward anyone who didn’t conform (gays being Satan himself) I am overjoyed to read Dan’s words. My dad even forbid me from being friends with one particularly “fruity” guy who was a great friend of mine. Because, “people might think I’m gay!”

    I also got that exact same horsesh*t from my brother, about how the suicides “prove” that the “homosexual lifestyle” is deadly. Grew up in Tulsa, bro’ now lives near Wichita. Go figure. I, in NYC now, and should’ve moved in a long, long time ago.

    “Playing nice,” or allowing that “it’s just two different viewpoints, both are equally valid” DOES NOT address or help to minimize the problem at all.

    I am also of the school of “f*king kick ’em in the face till they can’t run their fool mouths any more, and are so scared they finally might listen to someone else, and question their own myths.”

    The only thing a bully respects, is a bigger bully.

  116. As a straight who grew up immersed and overwhelmed by the idiocy, bigotry, hatefulness, and aggression of the bible-thumping “religious right,” directed toward anyone who didn’t conform (gays being Satan himself) I am overjoyed to read Dan’s words. My dad even forbid me from being friends with one particularly “fruity” guy who was a great friend of mine. Because, “people might think I’m gay!”

    I also got that exact same horsesh*t from my brother, about how the suicides “prove” that the “homosexual lifestyle” is deadly. Grew up in Tulsa, bro’ now lives near Wichita. Go figure. I, in NYC now, and should’ve moved in a long, long time ago.

    “Playing nice,” or allowing that “it’s just two different viewpoints, both are equally valid” DOES NOT address or help to minimize the problem at all.

    I am also of the school of “f*king kick ’em in the face till they can’t run their fool mouths any more, and are so scared they finally might listen to someone else, and question their own myths.”

    The only thing a bully respects, is a bigger bully.

  117. @30

    So, gay people should just STFU and take it like they’ve been taking it for the past.. oh, I don’t know.. two millennia??? SCREW that. I, for one, am mad as hell and I’m not gonna take it any more!

  118. I’m so tired of the religious bigots claiming their rights are being infringed by the very existence of LGBT people. I still remember the phrase “We’re here, we’re queer, get used to it!” and it applies ever more today.

    Part of the motivation of these religious bigots is the fact that they realize they are losing the battle. So they’ll fight ever more vociferously against equality. They aren’t going to gain any more adherents with this behavior so it’s a self defeating strategy.

    My only regret is that I won’t live long enough to see religious bigotry stamped out of existence.

  119. You go Dan. Signed, a Canadian – and guess what? Civilization up here has not ended since gay marriage has become legal. Weirdly enough, my heterosexual marriage didn’t end either.

  120. “If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preferance [sic], how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?”

    Uh, because we DON’T justify doing that, you hopelessly judgmental idiot.

  123. Cool it on the “magic sky friend” crap.

    I’m an atheist in the vein of Daniel Dennett; I think religion should be subject to scientific investigation; I’m not offended in the slightest by mocking religion.

    But,
    1) “magic sky friend Jesus” means I can’t forward this to my Christian friends, even my liberal Christian friends, without offending the hell out of them and losing the message entirely.

    It’s very much like if you wrote a strident and cogent column on Muslim treatment of women and made sure you included that Mohammed was a pedophile and Allah is a crazy tribal moon god.

    2) “magic sky friend Jesus” is just a witless thing to say, right up there with Flying Spaghetti Monster and pink unicorns and etc. Come on. Are you a high-schooler? Who do you hang out with who chuckles at these killer bon mots?

    How hard do you think it is to convince my fellow Americans that atheists AREN’T “I hate my Daddy” maladjusted nerds who memorize Monty Python films? It’s pretty damn hard, and all this “haha! LOL, guys, God is like a big stinky Bigfoot who smells!” stuff from grown men and women doesn’t help.

  126. Religion kills. I’m tired of giving these people a free pass to believe whatever they want to believe, when so many of us are directly harmed by their beliefs.

  127. “Magic sky friend Jesus” is Dan’s belief, and if the so-called Christians have taught us anything it’s that beliefs are “sacred” and must be sanctioned by every fucking other person on the fucking planet.

    Ooops, excuuuuse me, I meant to say that there’s a subset percentage of so-called Christians who believe only their “beliefs” must be codified into American law, and reign over the rest of us who don’t give a shit what they imagine in their own tiny skulls.

    Too damn bad for those bigots if they clutch their pearls at the phrase “magic sky friend Jesus.”

    Nothing Dan could have written politely will change the mind of bigots determined to twist scripture for their hate.

    In their minds, the imaginary “magic sky friend Jesus” is lovin’ their hate, which would be out of character for the scriptural Jesus.

    So fuck the bigots who can’t be bothered to follow the lead of their namesake savior.

  129. Kudos!

    We have DEAD CHILDREN HERE and instead of examining her own heart and how her own words and actions, along with those who share her beliefs, have contributed to these tragic deaths, this individual gives herself a pass on the way to whining about her own widdow hurt feewings??? She’s right – she’s not ‘perfect.’ She’s not even a half-assed excuse for a decent human being. Bleagh . . . Sometimes, the infantile self-absorption of our species just sickens me.

  130. Look, this guy in New Jersey that killed himself, Tyler Clementi, should have done what any rational person would do: File a police report, talk to school administration, demand that his roommate be expelled, and ask for a new room.

    It was his own choice to kill himself. No one forced him to do this. People in far, far worse situations than his manage to handle their problems, and he should have too.

    It’s disingenuous to say “people are dying” and lump Mr. Clementi in there with them – he didn’t have to kill himself and he shouldn’t have killed himself, it was his own foolish choice. Bullying and outrageous behavior happens all the time to people of every sexual orientation every day.

  131. @123.. and again i ask this as a christian. are your liberal christian friends so thin skinned that they can’t on won’t understand that they live in a world where an overwhelming population find them (us) repugnant. lazy, judgemental, stupid, illogical, and flat out weird ?
    many many christians are so blinded by the idea of being in the majority that they can not conceive that there are people that reject them with very good reason. they/us should stop expecting people to be so damned polite.
    we’re talking life and death issues here. and some.. no many… many people have suffered, are suffering and dying because of them/us. remember jesus in the temple and quit expecting civility.

  132. OK, someone is critical of a system of beliefs that leads children to kill themselves and a subscriber to that system of beliefs says that criticism is unfair because it hurts her feelings?

    It’s always unfair to criticize those beliefs that have imaginary supernatural friends tied to them, isn’t it? I can criticize your politics, but not your superstitions, even when you use your superstitions to influence politics in ways that kill people?

    Go cry your crocodile tears somewhere else, L.R., you stupid hillbilly.

  133. Dan, your response to this low life should be shouted from the rooftops. After Prop 22 here in CA I vowed to never again let people get away with hatemongering in the name of religion. “As a follower of Christ” this person (and I use the term loosely) should be ashamed of themselves. They’re right about one thing though… people like me ARE intolerant. We’re intolerant of bullies driving children to suicide. We’re intolerant of bullies who won’t mind their own fucking business. We’re mostly intolerant of them trying to pretend they’re the victims in this. So to quote Dan.. ‘fuck your faith’.

    Can I just say I hope there’s someone at Slog who can give Dan a bit of a respite. It’s exhausting from where I sit, I can’t imagine what he must be going through.

  134. Thanks, Aliens for revealing your own twisted bigotry with a Blame the Victim comment.

    There are none so blind as those who will not see.

  135. Soo,

    There are over 300 million people in this country. 33,300 people killed themselves in the United States in 2006. Obviously people aren’t “fucking screaming in the streets” over this case. Get a grip.

  136. Every year untold numbers of American kids die from the type of lethal harassment that the absurdly mis-named Focus on the Family would seek to promote and protect. These people are not Christians, they are vile terrorists who rejoice at the death of American Kids. I truly believe that when Candi Cushman, and Focus on the Family founder, James Dobson finally do come face to face with the Christ they claim so loudly to follow; He will say; “I do not know you.”

    Keep going Dan! The American Taliban is running scared. they are desperately trying to get control of the bullying debate because they ARE the bullies . Is it such as shock that Focus on the Funding..er.. I mean Family has launched an all out attack on anti-bullying and safe schools programs? These programs are a THREAT to HOMOPHOBIA and if you even allow for the argument that homophobia kills, then you’ll have face the question “So where did all that deadly homophobia come from?”

    Remember, whenever you hear the Religious Wrong in the country saying how much they want talk about bullying, but NOT about homophobia , they are NOT interested in protecting kids, they are ONLY interested in protecting and promoting hatred of Gays and Lesbians.

  137. Dan, I have to disagree with you on: “… if one of your children is unlucky enough to be gay….”

    I am so happy and proud to be gay and I do not feel like a child is unlucky in that way. The child is unlucky by being born into such hate-filled, bigoted and homophobic parents–that the unlucky part.

  138. Aliens, obviously your God doesn’t care about the one sparrow falling, or the lost sheep.

    It must be ugly living in your hateful little head.

  140. #123/Magic Titan:

    1. The religious need to get the fuck over themselves. Their beliefs are ridiculous, and it’s time that people stopped feeling reluctant to point that out based on misdirected “respect” for their views or received deference for religion. Religion is not above challenge, parody or ridicule. If you really “respected” your Christian friends, you’d challenge their superstitions.

    2. Invisible Pink Unicorn and Flying Spaghetti Monster are brilliant. Magic Sky Friend Jesus is not witless; it’s incisive. It calls into sharp relief the utter stupidity and hypocrisy of professing belief in one type of supernatural entity but not others — if a cloud-dwelling giant then why not fairies, invisible unicorns, or animate pasta?

  141. judybrowni,

    How is it bigotry?

    If Judy kills Judy, then yes, Judy is a victim, but she is also a perpetrator, aka her own killer. That’s the thing about suicide, the killer and the victim are the same person. It’s just plain logic.

    I’ve heard Dan say many times that an adult is responsible for the choices he makes, yet Dan hasn’t addressed that idea here at all. In my opinion that’s always a point of consideration when talking about suicide. I would love to hear more from him about this, actually, once he cools down a bit.

  143. Wow, this is an epic thread. Speaks to the power of Dan’s post, and it brought out a lot of the regulars and others. And it makes me want to post a second comment.

    @Confluence: I’m starting to think there’s something wrong with you. Seriously.

    @Dawn in Main: I’m UU too, born and bred. If you confuse the “people of faith” that Dan is rightly excoriating with Unitarians… well, I think you need to get outside the seminary. We’re not exactly dogmatists. They are.

    @madtitan: You know what? You’re right. So what. Dan was mad, and he has a RIGHT to be fucking mad and fed up with these assholes. Any sensitive person, “Christian” or not, should be able to recognize that. If they can’t, then they value their own precious little beliefs – and their ability to wield their religious sensibilities like a club – more than they do the fact of gay kids getting hounded to death.

  144. And now we have the Rosetta Stone that can help us translate the Jebus-speak. It will be hereafter known as the Chambliss Stone.
    “Hate the sin, love the sinner” = “All F*ggots Must Die”
    “Family values” = “All F*ggots Must Die”
    “Citizens right to vote on marriage” = “All F*ggots Must Die”
    And on, and on, and on.

  145. @140

    I want you to understand that I am completely on your team when it comes to beliefs and rationality. Okay? That’s important. Now:

    All those “funny,” “incisive” things? The pink unicorn and the sky wizard and all that? Those are fucking stupid. They’re stupid because, while they are apt, while they are, in fact, no less ridiculous than Christianity, they are counterproductive. Let me ask you something. You seem like the type who gets in arguments on the internet. Have you ever, ever, ever, even once, convinced anyone of anything with a strident, name-calling tirade?

    Put it a different way: have you ever had a run-in with the cops? When they talked to you like you were a dull child, did it make you want to be more or less helpful and cooperative?

    Calling people names and making them feel ridiculous as a method of changing their mind or their behavior can work, sometimes, in the right context. That context is when you can actually apply social pressure – when you are in a group of peers and the person you’re trying to influence actually cares about you and your opinion. It will never work online. It will never work with strangers. It will never work with someone who doesn’t trust and value you. Stop it. You sound like an ignorant, spoiled child, and while you claim you’re attempting to change minds and “challenge” people, your petulance is pointlessly divisive.

    You consider yourself a rationalist, clearly. Act like one. Do the things that will accomplish your ends, not the things that cater to your basest ingroup/outgroup instincts.

    @123 is basically correct, although I am of the opinion that Dan’s piece here is one of the instances where this kind of ridicule is actually called for. These comments, however? Dan is a valued authority. LR bothered to write to him. His response carries an intrinsic weight. We, on the other hand, are an anonymous crowd of howling apes, and anything we say must stand on its own merits if anyone is going to pay any attention to it at all.

    Oh, and before you write me a heated response full of contempt and straw men, please take a moment to read back over what I’ve written here and address what I’ve actually said. Remember: same team!

  146. @130 You’re a fucking idiot. I’m sure this wasn’t the first time Tyler Clementi was harassed. It was his choice to kill himself, however, I believe he felt it was his only choice. When you’re beat up every day of your life you start to believe what you are told, regardless of how untrue it is. It breaks my heart to think about the pain this young man went through. I’m surprised you didn’t say he should have sucked it up and acted like a man.

  150. Your bigotry is obvious, Aliens, no matter how you try to cloak it with other seeming callousness.

    And you’re also a coward: unregistered comments, at the end of the thread, as well as the primary — blaming the victims of bigotry.

    You’re right: you’re an adult who should take responisibilty for your callous bigotry, but you’re a coward as well as a bigot.

  151. 145:

    Of course they’re no less ridiculous than Christianity. That is the entire point: it’s no less ridiculous to believe in an invisible unicorn or a being made from living spaghetti than it is to believe in a human-looking god. Those characters were invented and gained currency precisely for that reason, because they are things that (1) no sane person could get away with claiming real belief in, and (2) are materially no different from the gods claimed by the various socially-accepted religions today. They are parody, something along the lines of The Colbert Report, perhaps, intended to highlight precisely the lunacy they present.

    As you say, not every tactic works. But clearly the tactic of being polite, deferential and respectful about religion (and certainly the tactic of trying to argue Christians on scripture) is not working. If this (latest) wave of suicides of gay kids is teaching us anything, it’s that it’s time to stop being respectful and deferential about the clearly insane beliefs people espouse. As Sam Harris said:

    Notice that no one is ever faulted in our culture for not “respecting” another person’s
    beliefs about mathematics or history. When people have reasons for what they believe, we consider those reasons, and when they are good, we find ourselves believing likewise. When they have no reasons, or bad ones, we dismiss their beliefs as a symptom of ignorance, delusion, or stupidity. Except on matters of religion . . . We have been lulled into ignoring just how strange and insupportable many of our religious beliefs are . . . If I believe that Christ was born of a virgin, resurrected bodily after death, and is now literally transformed into a wafer at the Mass, I can still function as a respected member of society. I can believe these propositions because millions of others believe
    them, and we have all been taught to overlook how irrational this picture of reality is. If, on the other hand, I wake up tomorrow morning believing that God is communicating with me through my hairdryer, I’ll be considered a nut, even in church. The beliefs themselves are more or less on a par—in so far as they are in flagrant violation of the most basic principles of reason. The perversity of religion is that it allows sane people to believe the unbelievable en masse.

  152. As for the so-called bigoted Christians being turned off by the phrase “magic sky friend Jesus” — they’d already be clutching their pearls over the word “fuck” before they got to that phrase.

    So fuck them and their imaginary “magic sky friend Jesus” who bears no resemblance to the Jesus of scripture, anyway.

  153. @140 – so we’re a crowd of howling apes, but also a team? Nyuk, nyuk. However, I kind of take your point. The larger question, though, is, if that phrase WEREN’T there, would any of 123/titan’s Christian friends be any more swayed by Dan’s post? Really? You seem optimistic in this regard, but one could argue that a lack of reverence and automatic respect might actually be more effective.

    Truth is, none of us knows what works best. You obviously subscribe to the catch-more-flies-with-honey school; maybe you’re right. But the rest of us are entitled to a more angry approach if we want.

    ‘least, that’s what I think.

  156. judybrowni,

    You never answered my question. Why do you think I’m a bigot? What exactly did I say, and against whom is my “bigotry” directed?…

    Todd in RSM,

    I hope that someone like Tyler, contemplating suicide, reads my comments someday and realizes that suicide is not “his only choice.” Instead of calling me names, you could join me in letting depressed people know the full range of their options, and do some actual good for someone instead of name-calling. Then again, given that you are the kind of person that thinks that insults make your position stronger… I’m not optimistic.

  158. @123: You have to recognize that in many strains of christian theology, there’s a great deal of scorn heaped on those who treat the holy trinity as some kind of bank or wish-granting service. Part of the “sinners in the hands of an angry god” line of thinking was that people got far too comfortable with treating Jesus as some kind of peace-loving buddy that always had their back — that they didn’t have to actually perform any sort of tasks to get in his good graces.

    If your christian friends have any critical thinking skills, they’d recognize what Dan was saying. You, on the other hand, completely missed the point.

  159. I just said very similar things on my Weble/blog and this was snet to me by a friend. You said it WAY better than I did and I love it! Thank YOU! and for thsoe readers who say they are gay and Christian, I was Christian for 50 of my 54 years, I studied for the ministry and studied Christianity ALOT! This year I stoped being a Christian because I learne the trueth and know it is a a lie! Also becuase you can NOT be gay and Christian, not for the reasons they say, but becuase it is a religion that has chosen to hate Gays and no matter what you do, that will not change. Being Christian and gay is like being a Jewish Natzi, just NOT a good idea!!
    Jesus was a great guy but NO ONE follows him! When the vast majority of a group, any group, acts a certain way, that is how the group is! Even if there are 3 or 10 percent of the so called Christians who are “good people” and truely try and follow what Jesus actualy was supposed to have said, that does NOT make Christianity that wy. It means that small percentage is an anomaly and NOT really Christian!

    I have been NOT a Christian for about 8 months or so, and I have been set free of guilt and all the things that “accepting christ” was supposed to have done for me! For the first time in my life I am fre and happy! I am NOT an atheist, I just think NO MAN or BOOK can know the mind of the Devine and so anyone who says they do or their book does, is CRAZY!

  160. @123 Thanks!! I was raised in a very conservative church. My first gay friend who said, “How do you think it makes me feel when Christians talk that way?” sent me searching for more info and Dan’s books on adoption and gay marriage were the clinchers that make me change my mind.

    The assholes that hurt gay kids will use comments like this thread as ammunition to keep hurting kids. You wanna win, give @123 and others like him stuff like Dan’s books and the It Get’s Better Project. That will affect the people who are closing their eyes to the problem (the bystanders, not the bullies or the bullied). The only thing that a bully respects is not a bigger bully, it’s a group of people telling them to knock it off.

  161. Was off-line yesterday so missed this, holy crap Dan, way to tell it like it is. Kind of a wake-up call that the time for being super polite about this issue is over. I am going to bookmark this, and send it out to any Christian (or fundamentalist from any other religion) who gives me yang about disrepecting their faith or rights from here on out. xoxo

  162. @96

    THANK YOU.

    I cannot believe Dan missed that, and that it took up to #96 for someone else to catch that phrase.

    “We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.”

    Clearly LR thinks s/he is more worthy than LGBTQ people of the right to marry, and I wonder what else s/he thinks s/he deserves over LGBTQ people! I’d argue the list at least includes, the right to be affectionate in public, God’s true love, and heaven only knows what else. I just pray that “God” can forgive LR.

  163. @96

    THANK YOU.

    I cannot believe Dan missed that, and that it took up to #96 for someone else to catch that phrase.

    “We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.”

    Clearly LR thinks s/he is more worthy than LGBTQ people of the right to marry, and I wonder what else s/he thinks s/he deserves over LGBTQ people! I’d argue the list at least includes, the right to be affectionate in public, God’s true love, and heaven only knows what else. I just pray that “God” can forgive LR.

  164. Blaming the victim of bigotry = bigotry.

    I also notice you’ve toned down your victim blaming somewhat, and I hope that’s due to some self-awareness.

  165. I guess I suffer from the Stockholm Syndrome. I’ve so fully pardoned my oppressors that I initially thought Dan’s Fuck You response to L.R.’s polite letter to be rather harsh. Then, as I read the comments, I could not help block out the torment of my junior high and early high school years, the ensuing alcoholism, the furtive sex, the failure to pursue goals because they were too queer, the loveless conformist life I’ve lead and the sense of shame that endures to this day at age fifty-one! So yeah, fuck you L.R.!

  166. hatered bigotry and discrimination all begin at home parents teach their children either by their own action or their words so to end all discrimination its the parents who must be dealt with then the children straight people will not change thier mind willingly it will have to be done by out lawing the practice all together with stiff penaltys for inacting discriminatory action and I mean stiff big fines jail time things of that nature the time is past for legislation!

  167. We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death “so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda.”

    L.R. You may not have known someone who has done that, however Christians have been doing that for years. Look at the four inquisitions that happened between 1184 and 1860, all of which punished free thinkers; calling them heretics, or punishing people who did not convert; calling that act blasphemy.

    Nowadays Christians use social pressure and money to influence civil rights and destroy other peoples lives.

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
    – Mahatma Gandhi

  168. Dan as always, your words are perfect. I miss the Stranger. Living here in the UK we ‘seem’ to have come to an understanding with GLBT, there is no religious right. Its easy to become complacent when you’re accepted, people who ask why an american would want to live here, I tell them my partner & I are not welcome in the States. They are aghast, the Brits have a past they seem to have learned from. We have Civil Partnerships. I was just back in the States, it was not nice having to mind my Ps & Qs re: my missus. No hand holding, no affectionate kisses exchanged is public as we are used to. I agree with person who put it succinctly: “SING OUT LOUISE!”

  170. Dan, that has to be the single most amazing piece I have ever read anywhere – laying out EXACTLY the message American Christianity needs to have it’s collective nose rubbed in. Thank you for saying in clear words what I get too angry to be able to speak coherently in normal tones.

    And to the original Letter Writer: justifiable, righteous anger is NOT hate. You have earned our collective anger with your enabling-the-harassment attitudes. Persevering in those attitudes, failing to hear what Dan has so clearly expressed, will also earn you (and by extension your effing God) my contempt (and judging by the responses here, I am not alone), disgust, revulsion, and sincere desire to have nothing to do with the effing God you seem to think we should all think so well of.

    Fuck your feelings. Fuck your God. Fuck your “my loves are holier than your loves” bullshit. Fuck whatever religious dogma you hold that tells you I’m going to hell. Fuck your unmitigated gall for daring to assert that our standing up for ourselves is hate speech. Fuck your Biblical (ir)rationalizations that make you think I should not be permitted to define, defend and provide for MY family same as you. Fuck you for participating in a religion that taught me self-loathing so well that I was in my fucking mid-forties before I could truthfully assert my gratitude for the GIFT of my gayness. Fuck you and all the like-minded Christians who encouraged me to waste YEARS of my life trying to be something I’m not. Fuck you and all like-minded Christians who convinced my parents that the most loving thing they could do for their gay son was to stop talking to him altogether, except for the semi-annual “come back to Jesus” harangue.

    Angry? You bet your fucking ass I’m angry. On behalf of every LGBT suicide who internalized your bullshit so deeply as to lose all hope – fuck you.

  171. “We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people. I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death “so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda.”

    L.R. You may not have known someone who has done that, however Christians have been doing that for years. Look at the four inquisitions that happened between 1184 and 1860, all of which punished free thinkers; calling them heretics, or punishing people who did not convert; calling that act blasphemy.

    Nowadays Christians use social pressure and money to influence civil rights and destroy other peoples lives.

    “I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
    – Mahatma Gandhi

    “Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you’d have good
    people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good
    people to do bad things, it takes religion.” – Steven Weinberg

    “The church is always trying to get other people to reform; it might not be a bad idea to reform itself a little, by way of example” – Mark Twain

    “Those who say religion has nothing to do with politics do not know what religion is.” – Mahatma Gandhi

    And my two personal favorites:

    “Religion has caused more harm than any other idea since the beginning of time. There’s nothing good I can say about it. People use it as a crutch.” -Larry Flynt

    “The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn’t mean that God doesn’t love heterosexuals. It’s just that they need more supervision.”
    – Lynn Lavner

  172. I agree with @123 on point 1, but not point 2. “Magic sky friend” and “flying spagetti monster” are hilarious and important satire. But I think that satire is slightly misplaced in this letter. Just saying “makes Jesus cry himself to sleep” would have mocked this religious belief without appearing to mock all of Christianity (which is a whole other fight).

    On the other hand, Dan has been going like gangbusters for days now. One slight mis-step in tone is not a major crime.

  173. Dan, you wrote this article in love and kindness, thank you. Please don’t forget that the gay community think their bullying and their sins and these kids that committed suicide hold a higher level of recognition and sympathy than Christian, Muslim, Buddhist or straight kids that have done the same. I’m with you when and I too am saddened to hear that these kids got pushed to the limit that they resorted to committing suicide. I cannot comprehend their mental capacity. I feel so horrible still when I think of those 4. I pray for their families because they are going though so much pain right now.

    The fact of the matter is, people (especially teens and young male adults) are committing suicide every day. Some, gay, some straight, some Christian, some Muslim, some black, some white, some dads, some moms, etc. All of them were so depressed with a circumstance or many circumstances in life that was so sad beyond repair. I am straight and I was bullied all through elementary and HS years. Sometimes I still feel I’m being bullied today by many members of my family that are not Christians. You see, my family are not Christian. And they are all beyond dysfunctional. Extremely disrespectful and always blaming others for their issues in life. A lot of them are gay.

    I remember walking home from middle school for 3 straight years and having to sprint home so that the local gang gals would not catch me and jump me because I either looked at their boyfriend weird or looked too cute that day. I remember being scared to death when they did catch me sometimes. I remember being called the N-Word just because I was darker than the average kid. The B-word, the S-word, you name it I was called it. I remember being followed throughout middle school and high school and pushed down to pick up trash on the ground just because they wanted to bully me. I remember being so poor that kids would tease the outfits I wore. Sound familiar! Well that was only my good days. What I’m trying to say is there are a million more Non-Gay people like me that got bullied every day too and those people are living above it. For me, I always had God in my mind and I knew better already at my young age that God had a plan for me. Today am very successful, in my home life and my work life. I am proud wife of over 25 years and a mother of 3 (two are in college). In fact, the days of being bullied are long ago I actually never thought about it until today. Being a Christian has given me strength that surpasses all understanding. Because of this it is easier for me to forgive those that have done me wrong. It was my faith that helped me deal.

    It is not the fault of the Christian community that Christians (or people that call themselves Christians) don’t know how to act properly. It is not the fault of the straight community that other straight people (or people that think they are straight) don’t know how to act properly. From what I have read above the Gay community is turning into the exact same bullies they are attacking.

    Let me also say one more thing, I have attended church for my entire life. I have never one time I heard a sermon focused on homosexuality, never once have any of my Christian friends or co-workers shown any type of hatred toward the gay community. Christians are taught to trust the word of God. It is proven that the bible is a true and accurate account of history and bible times. The bible is an account of the fall and rise of man because of the absence or presence of God in their lives. Just watch the news for 5 minutes and see how man are still falling and rising in the same manner as they did during bible times. It is proven that Jesus walked the earth and rose again from the dead. And since it is written that Homosexuality is a sin then Christians have to trust that to be true. It is also written that a married man lusting over another woman is a sin. It is also written that anger is a sin. Etc. Basically, nobody will live a life perfectly in line with what the bible teaches (except Jesus). But real Christians are called to try hard to live a godly life, unfortunately a lot of us fall way way way short. But it is not this Christian’s burden to carry. So know this “Real Christians” will never act in a hateful way regardless of what church they lead or belong to!

    It is also not a Christian’s responsibility for fix the sins of other Christians. So stop it with the cop out on putting the hateful actions of other people on our shoulders to address or explain, because that is not our burden. We have many missions in life. In fact, I’m sure there are many Christians helping the Gay community today that you all fail to recognize.

    I do have to admit, I love about the Gay Community. picked the Rainbow as your symbol of unity and gay pride. To us Christians the bible teaches that the Rainbow is a covenant from God to Noah that the destruction of the entire earth (the floods) will never happen to us again. That Symbol is near and dear to us Christians and we love seeing the Gay community wave those rainbow flags and lifting up this covenant and meaning of God’s love for all of us all the time. Yes, God loves the Gay community too. He is working in your community right now because I am seeing more compassion in your community and more civility in your community than I have seen before. And I am seeing more gays and lesbians turn to God everyday. No they are not being “cured”; the term the gay community blames us Christians for using. Those are your words not ours. I see these Gay and Lesbian children of God trying to live a godly life and that is all God wants. God is a loving God and he loves everyone and only him, not church leaders or other Christians will grant you peace that surpasses all understanding too.

    I pray for anyone going through a tough time right now (Gay or Straight) that they all know that it gets better.

  174. So CNN gives shows to Eliot Spitzer and Piers Morgan and expects their ratings to increase? How about giving Dan Savage a show on CNN. Now that’s a show I’d watch.

  175. their magic sky friend Jesus

    Could we please leave Jesus out of this?

    Jesus of Nazareth, as you well know Dan, said NOTHING against LGBTs *or* our relationships. The “Christianists” (term I like!) have ZERO grounds to claim Jesus to be “on their side” (which is HATE).

    Feel free to not believe in Jesus (as Christ, God). But dismissive phrases like “magic sky friend Jesus” just makes things HARDER for us Queer Christians (who, after all, usually hear the Christianists’ hatred closer at hand). We’re the ones doing the heavy-lifting of *changing the haters’ hearts* (on the basis of a shared belief—nominally, anyway!—in Christ), while at the SAME time, fighting for our civil rights.

    Help a queer bro out, ‘kay? Keep the focus on the Christianist haters INCONSISTANCY w/ the loving Jesus of Nazareth—not your disbelief in Christ.

  176. Jesus of Nazareth, as you well know Dan, said NOTHING against LGBTs *or* our relationships. The “Christianists” (term I like!) have ZERO grounds to claim Jesus to be “on their side” (which is HATE).

    Feel free to not believe in Jesus (as Christ, God). But dismissive phrases like “magic sky friend Jesus” just makes things HARDER for us Queer Christians (who, after all, usually hear the Christianists’ hatred closer at hand). We’re the ones doing the heavy-lifting of *changing the haters’ hearts* (on the basis of a shared belief—nominally, anyway!—in Christ), while at the SAME time, fighting for our civil rights.

    Help a queer bro out, ‘kay? Keep the focus on the Christianist haters INCONSISTANCY w/ the loving Jesus of Nazareth—not your disbelief in Christ.

  177. Aliens, I’m sorry, but your one optimistic comment isn’t going to take away a lifetime of pain and suffering. Kids don’t normally jump from bridges because of one incident. Maybe if your kind didn’t bully and harass people they wouldn’t be on the bridge in the first place. I still think you’re a fucking idiot, but I’m optimistic that you can change if you wanted.

  178. The ever-growing great divide between Christian and Christ-like behavior never ceases to amaze me.

    “My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.” — I John 3:18

  179. I’ve always wanted to explain to others the point of view you just expressed, but have always failed to be that eloquent. Goes to show, the beauty of speaking the truth, and speaking from the heart.

    Thanks for everything you have done in the last week, a testament you as a gay man, but more importantly, as a human being.

  180. Todd in RSM,

    Wow, now you sound a lot like an 18-year old bully yourself. I hope you are able to change into a better human being as you get older.

    A few small hints: 1. You don’t know what you’re talking about when you say “your kind.” 2. If “one optimistic comment” won’t help, then perhaps many optimistic comments will. It’s a shame you continue to call me an idiot, even though I am offering encouragement and advice and you offer nothing. 3. Name calling only belittles yourself.

  181. You have denied God in your life. For that, you will experience what has been called Hell. But being gay has nothing to do with anything.

  183. Much like many…assumptions are made…you assume that the children making fun of the gays are Christian children. I have Christian children that have had gay friends, and that was not an easy road for them, as they got made fun of for having the gay friend, but as a parent I have taught them that what is important is “are they a nice person, a good friend etc”…Me nor any of my Christian friends raise our children to make fun of anyone, and they are quickly corrected if any of that behavior were to ever be displayed. I am a Christian and I have gay friends. It is not up to me to judge my friends. It is my job to love them…not to convert them..to love them, and that is what I do. They are my friends because they are funny interesting people just as my atheist, Buddhist, Hindu, and even satanist friends.

    The only thing I am offended about is that we, as Christian, are lumped into a huge judgmental pot by other groups, because of some traditional typically Southern Baptist Christians. IT would be like saying all gays men are “flaming” or all gay women are “butch”. We do not like to be judged any more than you do!

    We have all been hurt in life one way or another, and I agree that gays definitely have had more rejection and pain that most people…There are more true Christian’s out there than you give us credit for, and if you were to step out in Faith, then you would find that to be true. The crazies, who are found in any faith or community always will stand out…don’t lump us in your judgmental group.

  185. The Gandhi quote comes to mind “I like your Christ, so unlike your Christians”.
    Dan – it’s so refreshing to finally hear the words. No one challenges the religions to introspection and they seem to get a pass because they say they love us, but many Christians then organize to deny our relationships validity, deny us service to our country and deny us what they themselves recieve without needing to even ask for.

    The demeaning view of gay people is so pervasive in America. Attribute it to the high percentage of Christians in the US.

  186. Thank you for your words Dan they are so very uplifting in this time of nothing but condemnation for gay people!
    I find it so hard to live in a world where there is so much hate for our fellow people.
    I believe everyone has beauty in them no matter their race, gender, sexual orientation or religion so why is it we find it so much easier to focus on parts categorized by some as evil or wrong.
    I was brought up Christian and find it very comforting to believe there is a higher power looking after me and guiding me to do the same for others, but at 13 i realized i was gay, my first fear was not that god would hate me for this but that my Christian family would.
    My friends from school, college, university and work have had nothing but love and support for me yet my family find it so hard to find even a little understanding for that part of my life. Yet it does not hurt them in any way, i do not judge them on who they love or marry and i am sure they would have something to say about it if i did yet when they do it to me it is in gods name and is therefore acceptable and i should not argue but listen to everything they say and change my life accordingly…..why? if someone tells you that your god is wrong do you listen? do you agree and change your way of life just like that? Why does me loving another woman, wanting to live my life with her, look after her, share things with her, have children with her…why does that hurt the Christian family? I am loving someone surely that is a good thing? I am not abusive towards her, i have not killed any one, i try to live my life as best i can yet because i’m gay i’m condemned to be worse than murders, abusers and thieves. If i do ever have children they have a good chance of being subjected to threats and abuse yet as far as the abusers know i am in gods eyes a good mother, a caring person and am living my life as well as he could hope for. I would never yell these kind of abuses to anyone else so why is it a ‘god fearing’ person feels they can do it to me….does the bible not say ‘love your neighbor as you would love yourself’….i have to say i am ashamed to know people who cannot follow this simple and loving rule…is it really that hard?…really?

  187. Thank you for your words Dan they are so very uplifting in this time of nothing but condemnation for gay people!
    I find it so hard to live in a world where there is so much hate for our fellow people.
    I believe everyone has beauty in them no matter their race, gender, sexual orientation or religion so why is it we find it so much easier to focus on parts categorized by some as evil or wrong.
    I was brought up Christian and find it very comforting to believe there is a higher power looking after me and guiding me to do the same for others, but at 13 i realized i was gay, my first fear was not that god would hate me for this but that my Christian family would.
    My friends from school, college, university and work have had nothing but love and support for me yet my family find it so hard to find even a little understanding for that part of my life. Yet it does not hurt them in any way, i do not judge them on who they love or marry and i am sure they would have something to say about it if i did yet when they do it to me it is in gods name and is therefore acceptable and i should not argue but listen to everything they say and change my life accordingly…..why? if someone tells you that your god is wrong do you listen? do you agree and change your way of life just like that? Why does me loving another woman, wanting to live my life with her, look after her, share things with her, have children with her…why does that hurt the Christian family? I am loving someone surely that is a good thing? I am not abusive towards her, i have not killed any one, i try to live my life as best i can yet because i’m gay i’m condemned to be worse than murders, abusers and thieves. If i do ever have children they have a good chance of being subjected to threats and abuse yet as far as the abusers know i am in gods eyes a good mother, a caring person and am living my life as well as he could hope for. I would never yell these kind of abuses to anyone else so why is it a ‘god fearing’ person feels they can do it to me….does the bible not say ‘love your neighbor as you would love yourself’….i have to say i am ashamed to know people who cannot follow this simple and loving rule…is it really that hard?…really?

  188. To Christian folk: Instead of lecturing gays about how gays perceive Christianity due to what we have experienced, you should be spending your efforts lecturing your Christian friends, your Christian relatives and your Church for how they treat gays. That’s very nice that not all of you are anti-gay, but your religious leaders are teaching heterosexism. You need to change your religion because we cannot change the pain it has brought on us. Walk the walk and take the stake out of your own eye. Humble yourselves and stop trying to exalt yourselves. You are the one’s choosing to be Christian. Since I am no longer Christian, I actually have no obligation to abide by Love Thy Neighbor. I don’t have a belief system that tells me I am required to forgive. YOU DO.

  189. Ditto 188: but I want to add this…if you are a Christian, what are you doing in your church right now to stop bullying? Against gay kids, against nerds, against any kids? It is not enough to say, well I don’t support bullying, but then do nothing. Would Christ be silent?

    It is not enough to tell your kids to not pick on gay kids while your church says that homosexuals cannot be parents, adopt, serve in the military, or marry. I mean, if you can defend that, how can you condemn your children for singling out other gay kids for ridicule?

    If you are a Christian and are reading this, and are upset by the rhetoric, ask yourself in your heart, did I do anything by action, or by silence, that contributed to the attitudes held in America and in my community today – and what can I do differently now to make things better?

  191. “Being a follower of Christ is, above all things, a recognition that we are imperfect, fallible and in desperate need of a savior.”

    So this is your ‘Get out of Hell Free Card”? God knows you’re a screwup, so there is no need to change your behaviour towards others, since he’ll forgive you anyway? Nice.

    The new Christian motto: Speak loudly and carry a small conscience.

  193. The problem is bullying.

    If we say the problem is homophobia, then I have to ask, what forms of bullying are okay?

    Good Christians are against bullying, and can be counted on to oppose that. Make the issue homophobia and you lose their support.

  194. @192 Wow, I can’t believe I just read 192 comments on a Slog post. And (other than Dan’s useful tirade–thanks Dan!) yours takes the cake. Well said. I will remember that line, and use it.

  195. Over the top self important pitty mongers. Yes the tragedy of children committing suicide because they are racked with undeniabley tough life situations is unfortunate, and saddening, but get a grip. Suicide rate in America, is 17.1 / 100,000 and in Belarus is 35.1 / 100,000. Where is the outrage over their plight? Unfortunately for the Christian hating community, the United States has a population of 85% Christians. The gay community has a tough road ahead of itself to get the rights they deserve…..please read that last line carefuly, the gay community deserves the equal rights of those non gay in my opinion (as a Christian, which apparently discredits my voice in this issue)….but get off your damn high horse. I do not believe the homosexual lifestyle is any more wrong in the eyes of the guy who I call savior as those who are simple liars. There is no sin o meter, if so, boy are there a lot of women in trouble, same thing for anyone that wears different types of linnens, or people who have ever envied another’s goods or wife. Life is to great and wonderful to be caught up in the little things. None of this will matter when the lights go out. The only scientific argument against homosexuality is it’s a process that the continuation of the species due to the inability to create offspring. To the writer who is looking for some shock jockery by saying “F your feelings”, what a joke. The easiest way to under value and hurt your cause is to incite the group of people that whether you like it or not, you’ll have to go through to get your rights from. Is it too hard for you to just take off all the glitz and glamour, and just be intilligent with your arguments?

    The biggest thing standing in the way of rights for african americans were the biggoted and engrained racist views of the old ways of America. The majority at the time. The hard working and honest sacrifice of the people who fought for rights in the halls of justice and public opinion are something to be admired and mirrored. As much good that the civil rights movement did, they had to work so much harder because of understandably upset sects of the african american community lashed out, verbally/physically against those who oppressed them, one example being the black panthers. Change in social norms is a slow process, and I must say that the rights of the gay/lesbian community have come a far way, and we as a society are on that last hump. Don’t make it harder for like minded individuals to get what they really want by lobbing low brow explitive ridden rants on Christianity. Don’t think that you are so unique that you are persecuted because you are different. Yes it’s frustrating, but I’m sure the Jewish people in Germany were pretty frustrated too during the 30’s / 40’s.

  196. I do wish we could be having a conversation with the LW. Where is she? (Yes, it is a she)

    I don’t think she meant any harm, but it’s good to note that her fundamental (if well-meaning) beliefs are, in fact, harmful — however she might like to skew it. Her beliefs cause harm. Everyone suffers from them. Good on you, Dan, for calling her on the bullshit.

  197. Thank you, Dan.

    It is not just the parents who are to blame for the bullying — it is the teachers, principals, and administrators as well. They allow it to occur and continue. They turn a blind eye. They don’t care. They don’t want to get involved. They condone it by their silence. They’re afraid to have meetings with upset parents. They’re lazy. Whatever. But the biggest failure is the failure to understand just how profoundly children and teens feel the pain of bullying, how it makes them afraid to walk into the schoolyard or down the hall or even out of the house in the morning. The failure is the failure of empathy.

    No, it’s even worse than that. It’s the failure of respect for another human being.

    I know that many people do not see ‘disrespect’ as a disturbing act, but I say that disrespect is the ground of being on which all other perpetrations are based. If you can disrespect and diminish another person’s essential humanity, for whatever reason — race, faith, skin color, sex, sexual orientation, age, disability, education or lack of it — if you can disrespect that person, then you can justify in your own mind doing terrible things to him or her. Disrespect is the seed out of which all horror is grown, whether it’s the simple act of bullying in school or the horrendous mechanized institution of a Holocaust.

    What we are seeing in this country is disrespect of others elevated to a political philosophy. Creating hatred of gays, of Jews, of Muslims, of atheists, of immigrants, of Latinos, of blacks, of women, of anyone different — that’s a great way to get fearful people to run to the polls and vote in a sinister and hateful agenda. And the result is a context of disrespect, a culture of divisiveness, a society polarized into paralysis and vulnerable to the looters and vultures and robber barons who benefit by keeping us fractured.

    Being a teenager is hard enough — being a gay teenager in such a context of alienation from society is damn near impossible.

    But you are right. It does get better. There’s an old zen koan, something to the effect of: ‘Thank you for locking me outside where I could discover the beautiful flowers.’ By being pushed to the outside, there are things that gay people can learn about human relationships and the inherent hypocrisy of ‘Christian’ behavior that cannot be learned any other way. And there are things about love and respect and dignity that can only be learned in the community we have built for ourselves.

    It is that liberation that our ‘Christian’ friends fear most. Because in our liberation, they lose their power to control us. The so-called ‘Christian’ movement–the idea that Christianity and homosexuality are diametrically opposed–isn’t about faith, it’s about control. We aren’t dealing with truly Christian people, we’re dealing with control freaks. These control freaks recognize they have no authority at all of their own to control other people’s lives, so they assume the authority of the invisible sky fairy and demand that the rest of us obey.

    So, while I heartily applaud ‘fuck your feelings,’ I would take it even one step further. Fuck your faith as well. Any religion that insists on disrespecting the humanity of others and denying other people the right to have wholesome joyous beautiful lives is a false religion, a cult, a destructive mindfuck.

    Jesus taught us to love one another. He taught us to forgive each other. He taught us to heal the sick and feed the poor. And he told us not to judge each other. Considering what some people have done in his name, he’s probably puking his guts out. I know I’m damn close to it.

    As a culture, we have learned nothing from the death of Matthew Shepard. How many more of our children will die before we take steps to stop this epidemic of horror?

    Thanks for letting me rant.

  198. As a progressive Christian, I am not the least bit offended by Dan’s term “magic sky friend Jesus.” I am DEEPLY offended by people using Jesus as an excuse for their hatred and bigotry.

    I don’t like being grouped with people like LR, but I understand why those of you who justifiably hate Christians can’t see any difference between my belief in God and hers. IMO, progressive Christians have a responsibility to differentiate ourselves by our words and actions–it isn’t Dan’s (or anyone else’s) job to cut us any slack until we are as vocal in our support for LGBTs as our co-religionists are in their condemnation.

    My spouse is an Episcopal priest in a small Southern town. At our parish, he preaches a consistent message from the pulpit–LGBTs are valued members of our faith community and should have all the rights that anyone else has, including the right to marry (both civil and religious). I know his insistence on this basic tenet of human decency lost us some members when he first arrived, but we continue to get new people in our parish who tell us that they came to visit because they heard the church was inclusive.

    I work with our high-school youth, and I will be talking with them about these tragedies, and underscoring that there is nothing “Christian” about bullying people for ANY reason–and that standing by while others do it is as bad as being an active bully yourself. Young people will not learn that being gay is sinful in our parish. (They don’t learn that sex is sinful either, but that’s a subject for another day…).

    It’s true that we are a minority among Christians–but our numbers are growing. I consider it my responsibility to earn the trust of LGBTs, not yours to give me the benefit of the doubt when you’ve been wounded so many times before. But I did want you to know that some of us really do try and practice what we preach–and we’ll keep at it, mostly because we believe it’s what our magic sky friend Jesus would have us do.

  199. “Fuck your feelings” is right up there with Dan’s response to the woman who phoned in to the podcast telling gay kids in small towns to stay there and “be a good example” – “You don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about.”

    Bravo, Dan. Way to call bullshit.

  201. Dan ~ I have been a closet fan for many, many years and am thrilled you are finally receiving the national recognition and respect you deserve. Please note that “Christian” does not automatically mean “Anti-Gay.” There are thousands of us Jesus lovers who are working very hard to ensure our LGBT brothers and sisters — regardless of their faith walk — have full access their Equality Rights. I am a GSA mentor in Wyoming and I literally wake up every morning wondering what I can do that day to make our LGBTQ youths’ lives better and safer. I’m an anti-bullying advocate in the schools and speak out in the community on teen suicide as well. It’s devastating that ignorance and cruelty are killing our kids every day. I am driven in my volunteer activism by my faith — it’s the most honest expression of my beliefs and values that I’ve found.

    Thank you for the “It Gets Better” campaign. I weep over every entry and have loved sharing them with the LGBT youth in my life. Bless you!!!

  203. As a member of a Reconciling UMC, which strives to welcome LGTBQ persons, and strives to present a truly Christian welcome to ALL people, I want to second Doxy and Pamela’s comments above (@ 198 and 201).

    I, too, understand why so many LGBTQ people lump all Christians together as “haters.” Heck, as a lesbian living in the South, I am almost daily attempted to do so myself. But I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that espoused love, taught kindness and mercy, and did not twist scripture against anyone. I was blessed, as many are not, being raised in a loving Christian community.

    I wish there were another name for Christians like Doxy, Pamela, me, and the many thousands of others who struggle daily to wrest the term “Christian” the anti-gay, anti-woman, purity cult that encompasses so much of what we know as the “religious right.” I don’t know what term to use, other than to stubbornly remain Christian and loudly proclaim a very different Christianity from what many here sadly see every day.

    Thank you, Dan, for your piece, and for all the work you are doing on behalf of the LGBTQ community.

  204. I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that espoused love, taught kindness and mercy, and did not twist scripture against anyone.

    Just think how much luckier you would have been NOT to be raised in a church at all, but instead to be taught to value critical thinking, evidence, science, reason, and logic. Scripture is twisted–that’s what happens when you have myths written by different people at different times and in different languages collected in one book. It’s just unfortunate that so many people are raised to think they have to believe in it.

  206. @203 etc..

    Right on, Sista!

    There certainly ARE HomoLiberalEmbracingNurturing”Christian”Churches
    out there.

    We are the TRUE Christians.

    The One True Way…..

    not those imposter bigots.

    Praize Geezus!

    Only members of the
    TrueHomoLiberalChurch
    will be allowed to worship in
    the Qunited States of Gaymerica.

    The Taliban think they are right but they are sooo wrong.
    It’s Us, baby…

    Consider this your only notice….

  207. As a teenage girl from Scandinavia, I have to thank you for your words. I come from a fairly conservative family, and it is now my time to confirm my Christian faith. I have been doubting whether I should, because I find myself doubting God. And Jesus. I haven´t been going to church all that much during my childhood, and I´m sure I have a few misconseptions about Christianity. But all that I know is, that in the Bible, Homosexuality is judged and forbidden. I cannot for my life see why. If the Bible is the word of God, and God forbids gay love, how can I believe in, and worship him?

  209. I preached on this subject this morning and instead of doing so, I should have just read this article and let your words sink in. Great article, thanks candid and thoughtful response.

  210. I think your Liviticite friend needs to get over himself. We need more passionate responses like yours and an acknowledgement that not all – or even most – Christians think this way.

  211. Dingo said, “Faith is the deliberate and willful suspension of critical thinking; the time is long past to stop affording people undeserved respect or deference based on their ridiculous, willfully ignorant superstitions.”

    Not necessarily true. I’m a Christian, and I believe in evolution and reason. I don’t believe that being gay is a sin. I think that queer folk are wonderfully made, just like all people, and that God loves us for who we are regardless of our orientation. I grieve for the Christian children taught to hate and the people whom they hate. I used to be that way myself; my parents are homophobic. But I chose to open my mind and change. It is an awful thing to hate another human being, and it rots your soul from the inside out. I am so angry at my fellows who call themselves “Christian” but whose hate and narrow-mindedness betrays their hypocrisy. I resent them for making everyone think I am hateful and stupid just because I have faith too. I have a master’s degree and I love my queer neighbors. I am not like them, and I am SICK of being lumped in with them.

    EVERY true Christian realizes that queer folk are made in the image of God and to be honored and respected for the beautiful people that they are.

    I feel sorry for those people who can’t read the Bible in a sophisticated enough way to realize that science has value and truth too, and that the Bible’s condemnation of queers, and women, and slaves, and people of color is a product of the culture in which it was written. God’s Word to God’s people is love. And anyone who ignores it misses the point of being Christian.

  212. I am an Atheist and the mother of a gay son.

    The problem with respecting the beliefs of anyone who promulgates the existence of gods is that it is that very belief that underlies all the other problems. Without the underlying belief in gods, there would be no one making claims about the wishes of those gods, no one claiming “god hates (interestingly whatever they hate) or god wants you not to masturbate or god says to give me ten percent of your income (perhaps the greatest scam ever). Only people who hold such beliefs will teach their children that god hates gays. People who do not hold those beliefs might also hate gays, but they will have to accept that responsibility themselves and justify it on some other basis, which would be so much harder to do.

    The use of metaphors like unicorns and spaghetti monsters is completely appropriate to the discussion. Before anyone has the right to claim that some god wants humans to do any particular thing, and to have that claim enforced by law, they ought to have to prove that said god exists. And not just “exists” in some kind of ethereal, fantasy realm, not just by avoiding that issue with something like “God is love,” or “God is the ‘ground of all being,’” whatever the hell that means, but flesh and blood exists in the concrete kind of existence we all implicitly understand that we would need to see before we would believe in unicorns or flying pasta.

    Interestingly, in a little publicized case in 2006 in Italy, an Atheist who had once studied for the priesthood sued a parish priest to make him prove his claim of the historic existence of Jesus Christ. The judge ordered the priest to appear in court to prove that Jesus Christ existed and the next thing I heard about it was that the case had been “filed away,” in spite of the fact that the priest had produced no such evidence. The ultimate cover-up?

    So no, I do not respect ignorance in any form and I respect it least when those who promote such ignorance seek to harm my son, justify it with their claims for the wishes of unseen beings and enlist in their crusade those government and civilian entities they conscript to their cause to enforce their ignorance. I remember when I was a kid, my uncle’s wife spoke to unseen beings; they put her on lithium, as I recall.

  213. I want to add one more voice to the chorus. I can’t say it better than you Dan so I will just send you props. I stopped calling them Christians, now I call them “Christians In Name Only” CINO’s to differentiate them from true followers of Christ.

  214. It’s hard both to read the letter-writer 1) suggesting that loving the Lord and opposing gay rights are equivalent and 2) admonishing Savage to consider the power of his words. It is not the case that opposing gay rights follow logically from being Christian–I believe quite strongly that the opposite is true. And superficially peaceful language, coming from some of the most powerful organizations in the country, can condone discrimination and even violence against gays.

  215. I am unable to state this any better than you Dan so I’ll simply add one more voice to the chorus and send you props. I stopped calling them Christians, and now call them CINO, Christians In Name Only, in order to distiguish them from true follows of Christ, who would never ever say the hurtful things these CINO’s say and do.

  216. I’m an elder at my church and gay as a three dollar bill in the offering plate. This morning at church I offered a prayer of thanks for the good work you and your husband are doing with your video project.

    Thank you.

  218. Seems like you are implying that “real” Christians are loving, kind, accepting, non-violent and not bigots but, by not calling the haters Christians, you miss their whole point. They do what they do precisely because of their belief in gods, not in spite of it. I’m sure they would look at you and think you are not a “real” Christian because you don’t stand up for what they are sure their version of Christ would have wanted. Some preach hate and some preach love, but they all do so in the belief in the existence and divinity of Jesus Christ, and that is the only requirement for being a Christian (look it up in the dictionary if you don’t think so). It’s just a matter of who is interpreting the wishes of the gods.

  220. #211: You say you believe in “reason,” but you also believe in a god, and not only “a” god, but the god of the Bible, and you see no disconnect there. Proves my point, really.

  222. Eloquently written! He’s hit the heads of nails I’ve been driving on Christians for years and years. Christians have a legacy of hate and persecution stretching back to their very beginnings. And “good” Christians could more voiciferously protest their hateful bretheren and sisteren, but as we see, they don’t. So they are equally guilty of letting the fires of hate burn as much as the haters who fuel those fires.

  223. As a 48 year old gay man born to Southern Baptist parents, I have never truly believed for even one moment that my parents unconditionally loved me. They were far too worried about what their neighbors at church thought to worry about how their behavior impacted their children.

  225. Hey, y’all militant atheists up in this thread – THIS ISN’T ABOUT YOU. Taking the deaths of these children as your cue to rant about the evils of religious faith (spitting in the wind, I’m afraid) is not particularly respectful to those who died.

    There are plenty of religious communities out there who are friendly to LGBT folk. The problem isn’t faith qua faith. The problem is fundamentalism; the problem is patriarchy. (I’d bet you anything that the bullies in these cases weren’t acting out of religious conviction but rather out of a need to protect their position in the hierarchy of perceived manhood. Sissy boys threaten the status quo.)

    Since you guys value logic and reason so much; grow up a little and try to think about what you’re accomplishing by calling people of faith – the vast majority of human beings, for better or worse – nasty names on the internet. What exactly is it you’re trying to accomplish?

  226. Thank you, Dan, for connecting the dots that link these suicides as a result of bullying and humiliation to the hateful religions and hateful politicians who do their bidding.

  227. @225 I’m not an atheist, but I have no problem with the justified anger that atheists feel these days. The fundies are clearly the majority in the assault on homosexual people. As someone who’s been assaulted by these people (“bullied” isn’t really a strong enough word) I can tell you that I’ve yet to be assaulted by someone in the name of “You’re Ugly & Your Mother Dresses You Funny”. When your church, the place you should feel safe & accepted, tells you over & over again that you’re not entitled to the same consideration given everyone else you tend to get a bit put out.

    What we’re trying to accomplish (or at least what I’m trying to accomplish) is to out all the religious bigots for what they are. They are NOT ‘people of faith’. They’re people of dogma, blind obedience and ignorance. They aren’t bright enough to be ‘people of faith’ because having faith requires a belief in the unknown. They buy into & blindly believe only what their ignorant leaders tell them. Dan has pointed out time after time that the religious people who aren’t ignorant bigots need to speak up but they’re few & far between. Until they do the major representation we have of so-called “people of faith” are this lot.

  230. As i read all the 200+ comments… I realize why you “gay” folks get bullied so much. YOU are closet bulliers too! Your minds are all demented and quite honestly I hope gay kids don’t read these posts because you are feeding them so much hatred that really doesn’t exist in the the majority of schools, homes and churches.

    The saddness of the rise in teen suicide are due to the families and the lack of support families have now-a-days. I hope non of you have any straight children becuase you will make them feel as unworthy as you claim others make you feel for being gay. Those 4 young sweet kids just needed their families and friends to provide them a safe corner of the world. The blame is on their clueless families for not being a part of their child’s lives. There are many gay families out there that are functioning respectfully and peacefully now-a-days and have blended into their personal corners of the world just fine. YOU are all a shame to those gay families that are making it happen.

    GET OVER YOURSELVES!

  231. Dan: you will want to read this: http://freestudents.blogspot.com/2010/10…

    One of the kids who killed himself was a Baptist who read the Bible constantly and while he said he was gay said he didn’t want to be. Yes, fundamentalism kills. It not only encourages the bullies or gives them support but it also tells gay kids they are worthy of death. So why be surprised when they kill themselves.

  233. @ LR: A well written and succinct letter which expresses your preferences while recognizing that of others.

    It is wrong that any group should impose its values over another. The (Christian) Church has for centuries occupied the moral high-ground on many fronts while committing awful atrocities in the name of ‘Our Saviour’. We could argue for example that the RC church is ultimately responsible for the current attacks by the Islamists because of the crusades…. (discuss somewhere else please, that’s just an example).

    However, that doesn’t allow the Lesbian and Gay community to rant and be as ignorant. There is the benefit of history and the unprecedented access to information to inform us and put into context the many acts (right and wrong) which are and have been perpetrated against minorities which include the crusades, witch-hunts, genocides and wars.

    Can the Lesbian, Gay and other minority groups take the moral high-ground and lead now? Can they be the “saviour” that LR and those like (him or her) so desperately seek?

    That would be worthy of being a modern parable.

    James, Australia.

  235. Our minister is marrying his boyfriend next March in a church ceremony, and I can’t wait. Not all churches are bastions of hatred or judgmentalism. Not all people who call themselves Christians use their faith as an excuse to hit others over the head with their oh-so-human prejudices. It’s too bad that the ones who do so, tend to be the most vocal among us.

    Dan, your reply is amazing. Any Christian worth his or her salt can look past your minor instances of gratuitous namecalling, and see that you’re writing with the force of truth.

  236. Where did you get that tape of Matthew Morrison? Did someone bootleg the whole thing? Is it available on torrent? He performed when I saw South Pacific, but by the time they filmed Live at Lincoln Center, he had moved on to Glee.

  237. I am truly boggled (as always) by the assumption of internet atheists I encounter that religion is at the root of all evil human behavior. (Heck, the quote in @41 says it pretty much flat out.) If only we could eliminate religion — whether all religion or just Christianity is left to the preferences of the reader — then instantly human beings would become good, kind, rational, scientific, and tolerant.

    Do you really think that? Really? Human beings are human being everywhere. The human urges at issue here — clannishness, the fear of differences, the desire to promote oneself and one’s in-group over others, the intense hunger (either physical or intellectual) to be in possession of the greater power and so to ensure victory in any conflict — are inherent. Religion is an expression, not a cause, of human nature. If any mention of any God, spirits, or afterlife disappeared from human consciousness tomorrow, I feel pretty confident that we’d all still be dicks.

    Not even going to touch the assumption that spiritual faith and critical, scientific thought are mutually exclusive, let alone the childish extrapolation that the absence of one will magically generate the presence of the other.

  238. @237

    “[T]he assumption of internet atheists I encounter that religion is at the root of all evil human behavior” is a straw man, straight up. No one in here – not even @41 as you claim – has said so. By and large what people actually say is that many religions, especially those of an authoritarian nature, are intrinsically divisive and in most cases explicitly give their adherents permission to mistreat or even physically harm or kill any number of proscribed classes, most typically including unbelievers and women. Because of the social nature of human psychology, this sort of permission is a powerful motivator, and it encourages people’s natural, entirely inborn tendency to be dicks, rather than encouraging the equally natural but far more difficult to elicit capacity for compassion and understanding.

    I shouldn’t be having to tell you this. I shouldn’t bother. Your screed makes it clear you’ve not actually made any attempt to understand anything that “internet atheists” you encounter say, since you prefer to set up your own goofy argument to knock down. Even @41’s quote is far more nuanced than you imply.

    Grow up.

  239. @175, You really can’t leave Jesus out of a discussion of Christianity. That’s just… not a reasonable request. Jesus is a symbol. He means whatever his followers want him to mean.

    @225, Au contraire. LR’s letter was precisely about attempting to exonerate religion from the crimes of what is, in fact, religiously-motivated hate. If that doesn’t fall under “the evils of religion,” I don’t know what does.

  240. James, commenter 233 it is always the case when the tide turns and the opressers start to get what they deserve that they plead for the opressed to be “better than they were” to “take the moral high ground”! These are just ways of trying to make the victims who fight back feel bad! Or to get the victims to NOT give the oppresers what they deserve!
    I want Christians to suffer! I want them to feel pain like I have! I want them to suffer and not have anyone stand up for them! I used to be one and the best thing about NOT being one, is that I DON”T have to follow THEIR rules!! I don’t belive their lies or their rules, I know their God is a fraud! SO NO, we should NOT be their saviours!

  242. 237: if all religion vanished human beings wouldn’t all instantly become good, kind, rational, scientific, and tolerant–some people will always be evil, ignorant, intolerant assholes–but an awful lot of intolerance, evil, unkindness, irrationality, and denialism would vanish along with it.

  243. @204 – “Just think how much luckier you would have been NOT to be raised in a church at all, but instead to be taught to value critical thinking, evidence, science, reason, and logic. Scripture is twisted–that’s what happens when you have myths written by different people at different times and in different languages collected in one book. It’s just unfortunate that so many people are raised to think they have to believe in it.”

    I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that taught critical thinking, evidence, science, reason and logic! It’s not as rare as folks may think, given the tendency to equate all Christian denominations as fundmentalists and literalists. I understand that, as that’s the picture of Christianity the media offers us. I am not a scriptural literalist — there are so many ways to interpret scripture that include critical thinking and analysis. Many Christians would have you believe that one must be a literalist to be a Christian — I simply disagree with them.

  244. Christian beliefs are cherry-picked from the bible. How can such selectivity from the bible be called a true “belief?” I think they cite the bible, like a lawyer cites a case. They already have the hateful belief, then just use the bible to justify it. They are not following the bible, they are forcing the bible to follow them.

  245. @233
    “Can the Lesbian, Gay and other minority groups take the moral high-ground and lead now? Can they be the “saviour” that LR and those like (him or her) so desperately seek?”

    Well, yes, in part by calling bullshit when someone says that Christianity holds that it is more important to speak nicely about Christians than it is to work to keep kids from dying.

    If you think that “the moral high-ground” means speaking nicely, you need to really, seriously sit down and rethink your priorities. And stay out of grown up discussions until you do.

    Dan had to address this writer in writing, so he didn’t have the chance to do what I wish he could have, and I suspect he would have done in person – ask whether the writer had bothered to write to any of the people calling all gay people perverts and sinners by definition, and more importantly, to any of the many people speaking out against anti-bullying laws and policies.

    Because if L.R. didn’t do so, then by definition, L.R. is more concerned about one sex-advice columnist speaking bluntly about Christians than about thousands of kids being bullied and harassed and driven to suicide. In their fucking schools. While nothing is being done by their fucking teachers, and pastors, and in many cases, by their fucking parents.

    Adultery was the single biggest sin that Jesus spoke about, taught about, and got worked up about. And yet, when he confronted people who were following what was the current religious and civil law about it, he told them all to shut up and go home and leave the woman alone.

    Fighting anti-bullying laws, and tsk-tsking when someone gets outraged about teen suicide is supposed to be a Christian attitude?

    Seriously, nobody should even be able to hear Dan Savage’s voice over the screams of protest by outraged Christians that children are dying, and nobody should be able to FIND Dan’s column because the internet should be swamped by Christians demanding an accounting of their schools and churches and politicians.

    Protecting the children is anti-Christian and anti-Conservative?

    Honestly, “fuck your feelings” is mild compared to the response this should be getting. From Christians.

  248. 243: I was lucky enough to be raised in a church that taught critical thinking, evidence, science, reason and logic! It’s not as rare as folks may think . . . I am not a scriptural literalist — there are so many ways to interpret scripture that include critical thinking and analysis. Many Christians would have you believe that one must be a literalist to be a Christian — I simply disagree with them.

    There can be no real critical, evidence, science-based, reasoned logic in religion because you begin from the unprovable, so unlikely as to be for all practical purposes untrue premise that there is a god, and that HE (not she or it or they) is the god of the Bible. Any interpretation of scripture that holds it has some truth ≠ critical thinking.

  249. Powerful response, Dan.

    I would add that there are plenty of Christians, and Christian churches and Christian clergy who do NOT perpetuate theology or rhetoric dehumanizing to gays, who are trying to do better, who do not countenance the way that the religious right manipulates the faith of Jesus to justify discrimination and emotional (if not physical) violence. I’ve been to a Baptist church in Georgia which flew a big rainbow flag over the front door. The Lutheran church my roommate and I attend now is openly welcoming of LGBT members. The General Assembly of the Presbyterian Church (USA) just voted to do away with the last of its barriers to gay and lesbian ordained clergy. And my favorite charity here in Manhattan is Sylvia’s Place, an emergency shelter for homeless LGBT youth, run by the Metropolitan Community Church.

    So no, I don’t feel that you have painted all people of faith with one brush–only those who use their faith to justify societal abuse of gay people. Plenty don’t, though your critic might not recognize them as “real” Christians or even realize that they exist.

  250. Well put, Lymis. And way to miss the fucking point, James. You want us to be more nuanced when we react to Christians? Sure. Soon as gay kids stop dying, we’ll be right with you. Till then, “fuck your feelings”.

  252. @245.

    I base my opinions of the church on 10 years serving as an acolyte and in my local choir. I have travelled the world and have seen what religions are capable of. From the Vatican hoarding the treasures of ages – and we’re not just talking about a few old pictures here, to the Jewish state persecuting Arabs to the point of genocide. Have you even got out of your state(s) yet? Maybe, even you have seen news reports where extremists have done something in the name of some or other religion.

    Otherwise Yes, you should highlight lies for what they are.

    Some posts above have suggested that I neither have feelings for nor support the Gay or Lesbian communities (250 & 245) yet some of my favorite people are both and I count them amongst my friends. Why would I not support them when what they and maybe you seek, is just a little whiff of equality? Or maybe you don’t and this is just another opportunity to get your soapboxes out for a little rant.

    @240. The point I was trying to make was that the Gay and Lesbian community should lead by example and not follow the well trodden path that other bullies have taken.

    @ 250. Gay kids won’t stop dying because of religion. There’s enough bigots around and they also have difficulties expressing themselves. You want to swear. Go and vent your anger at them and not me. Good luck, you might even make a positive difference to someone one day.

  254. Fuck you. That kid was weak, that’s why he killed himself. Nobody murdered him, as much as I think you would have preferred that. Why don’t you look at yourselves instead of blaming others for what you think they think about you. Oh, and fuck you again for being a gay douchebag.

  256. I am utterly amazed (but not surprised) at the lack of intelligence and eloquence in most of the posts about this article. I particulary like #16 in which sirkowski tells the letter writer to “kill yourself” I love it when those on the left defend their viewpoints with such immaturity and bile. You people are so blinded by your anger and intolerance that you are missing a major point. L.R. says, “If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?” That is absolutely true!!! It seems like no one above (with the exception of 252) can possibly imagine a Christian to be anything less than a bigot. As a man growing up Catholic, I know that people’s view of me changes when they find this out. I get comments like, “I’m so sorry”, or “oh God!”. Someone even had the nerve to ask me if I ever had a priest try and molest me! Yeah, that is really tolerant isnt it?
    I saw absolutely nothing wrong with L.R’s letter. If those of you who immediately starting spewing out your own hatred against L.R., then maybe you would be able to see where he/she is coming from.

    And in case you were wondering I am a gay man myself….

  257. A great column, Dan! You may not be able to persuade that fellow who wrote to you–he probably can’t see the harm he does, any more than Christian preachers in the South who supported segregation could. I’m glad you wrote what you wrote. Sometimes strong medicine is needed.–Chip Deffaa

  258. @ 256 “It seems like no one above (with the exception of 252) can possibly imagine a Christian to be anything less than a bigot. ”

    How about that for putting everyone in the same boat, i.e. accusing people of precisely what you’re doing yourself?

    You obviously haven’t read all the comments. Many people have noted that the problem is that the good, open-minded christians aren’t telling the christian bigots to shut up already with their hatred towards anyone that’s not like them. But obviously, you didn’t want to hear that.

  259. 256: you miss the entire point. Nobody has to be tolerant of the faith-based beliefs you choose to hold. You weren’t born with them, you’re not incapable of changing them, and there’s no evidence that they’re based in any objective truth. If someone informed you that they believe that all human existence is actually a dream being dreamed by a giant frog sitting on a purple lilypad in a pond of goats’ milk, would you feel a need to be “tolerant” of that view? Would you feel a need to listen politely as you were told that, actually, since you don’t share that view your fate is to be eaten alive by tadpoles?

    Judging people based on the views they hold and expound and how they behave is absolutely valid–it’s what people in the real world do every single day. It’s YOUR CHOICE to believe–not only totally without evidence, but in the face of overwhelming evidence to the contrary–in the outrageous lie that crackers and wine transubstantiate into flesh and blood as you eat them. Just as nobody has an obligation to respect the opinions of someone who claims that 2+2=30,000 or that cows have 7 legs, nobody has the obligation to respect the bullshit claims of your religion. Get it now?

  260. @256 :

    I judge religious people based on their complete lack of intelligence. If you truly believe that you have an imaginary friend who created the universe, you are a complete moron. So I judge you on your merit.

  261. @259: Thanks for your condescending rant regarding the Christian/Catholic religions. Do you feel better know that you got that off your chest? (yes, that was condescension, just to be clear)

    “Nobody has to be tolerant of the faith-based beliefs you choose to hold.”
    Really? Now that is just a convenient blanket statement to allow you to be intolerant towards anything religion has to say that you disagree with.

    I am not saying that religion does not have its share of bigots, but based on many of the comments above, there is bigotry in every group.

    But “Dingo” you did make me realize something. Why are we spending so much time being intolerant (your words) of faith based beliefs in Christianity, why is the left so determined to be tolerant of Islam??? This is a religion that disallows homosexuality and even calls for capital punishment of homosexuals. Gay men and women that live in many Muslim countries live in fear that they will be murdered if they are outed. I would feel 150% more comfortable being in a Catholic church as a gay man then I would be if I were in a mosque. But lets go ahead and let them build that mosque anyway…The Left’s views are so convenient and they pick and choose what they want to get enraged by.

  262. @ 256 And I forgot to add (although many have said it earlier in this thread): Consequently, all christians who are not opposing the bigots among them are actually approving of them – and therefore just as guilty by their failure to act according to their supposed beliefs.

    If you won’t throw the rotten apples out, you eventually become one too. And it’s obvious to all those with eyes to see and a brain to think with that there aren’t that many non-rotten apples left among religious people.

    And for those who wonder about my spelling: I just don’t think religions and religious people deserve a capital letter. It would definitely be giving them more importance than they are worthy of.

    @ 260 – You made my day.

  263. @ 261 – We are mostly talking about christians because muslims don’t have much political influence in Western countries. Obviously, for those with some measure of intelligence, the same applies to all other religions in their own context. Get it now?

  264. The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is. Scientists are studying that very subject.

    What isn’t hardwired, though, is DECIDING to call people who believe and/or act differently than you do “evil” or “moronic.” All it does, usually, is make the person you’re calling names tune out from the rest of your argument. I see this sort of name-calling on both sides of the equation here, and I don’t think it furthers the debate any.

  265. @260: Ah, yet another post with name calling…It reminds me of the following Margaret Thatcher quote, “I always cheer up immensely if an attack is particularly wounding because I think, well, if they attack one personally, it means they have not a single political argument left”

    And to be clear, I may be a religious person, but I do not take everything in the Bible as gospel. I am a person who believes in faith. There is plenty in the Bible that I just don’t believe or accept. But I do believe in a higher power and it is that faith in God that helps me get through this thing called life…and the fact that you would call me a “complete moron” saddens me and makes me feel sorry for you…

  266. @263: Why are we splitting hairs here? So now we are talking about a religion’s “political influence”. I thought we were talking about intolerance and hatred…if we stick to that criteria, then Islam would definitely apply.

  267. @ “The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is. Scientists are studying that very subject”.

    If that is so, how do you explain the fact that there are atheists, and many more every day? How do you explain the fact that at age 11, after reading the bible in full (and laughing my head off), I realized that it was totally incoherent and full of contradictions and downright hateful propaganda, and that any religion based on it had to be a scam? AT THE AGE OF 11. And after 11 years of catholic brainwashing.

    What really seems to be hardwired into the brain of many is the propensity to reject their responsabilities in life and decide that some magic sky friend decided everything for them and explained it all already, so they wouldn’t have to use their brain or accept the consequences of their actions (ie you can be an evil person, but all will be forgiven if you believe). But that is called “mediocrity”, and although you’ll find it’s rather widespread among human beings, it’s nothing to be proud of.

    PS to Dan: Thanks for coining “magic sky friend”. I’ll be forever grateful.

  268. @ 266 – You obviously haven’t read neither Dan’s answer nor the comments here. This is all about the sociopolitical influence of christians. If you didn’t get that, than I’m sorry, but you most probably are what your were called @ 260.

    And if you quote Margaret Thatcher, that beacon of respect towards her people and human beings in general, than I’m sorry, but you most probably are what your were called @ 260.

    And you are the living proof of what we have been saying about christians.

  269. Personally, I don’t think being “polite” to Christianists like L.R. makes any more headway than being blunt. If they don’t respond to reason or common sense in everyday life, why would they respond to reason if it’s sugar coated? That’s why civil rights issues are decided in the courts. It takes too long to bring the entire public up to speed, and a lot of people will never, never change.

    As to “intolerance” of religion, the vast amount of atheists and agnostics wouldn’t care if people follow a faith one way or the other, as long as the Christianists, etc. would stop trying to insert their crucifixes into public policy. Atheists don’t go door to door or stand on street corners preaching to dismantle religion. What they say is in response to the harms done by religion, and especially when those views are threatening to corrupt the separation of church and state.

  270. I am completely done commenting on this website. I foolishly thought that I was having a debate with rational minded people about intolerance and hatred. But I realize now that debating with liberals is like nailing Jell-O to a wall. One post after another is filled with red herring, ad hominem, and straw man fallacies.

  271. #267, some people may be predisposed towards religious faith, and others may not. It’s not an all-or-nothing proposition. I have nothing against people who have no religous faith, as long as they don’t tell me I’m stupid for following my faith.

    I’m someone who actually challenges closed-minded Christians about their beliefs, btw. I count myself as responsible for my own thoughts and actions, and I ask others to examine theirs when I believe that’s called for.

  272. ggallegos78:

    My post was not intended to be condescending, nor was it a rant. You asked why people feel justified in being intolerant of religion, and I explained.

    What happens in civilized society is we listen to arguments based on facts, and if those arguments and facts are convincing, we may agree with the presenter. Religion is by its very nature excluded from this: the religious, by and large, do not want their faith to be questioned or criticized, and when it is they refer to it as “intolerance.” This is not intolerance or bigotry, any more than it is “intolerant” or “bigoted” to question or criticize the claims of quacks that they can AIDS can be cured through dietary changes. YOU ARE NOT OPPRESSED AS A CHRISTIAN, so get the fuck over yourself.

    And by the way? YOUR religion calls for death for “homosexuals” (your very revealing choice of words) too. It’s really questionable if there’s one of Islam and Catholicism is the lesser evil–your church, lest we forget, is responsible for the rapes and beatings of thousands of children on every continent.

    So you you’re another one who claims not to take everything in the Bible as gospel. That seems to be the constant bleating refrain of the religious apologist, as though that somehow makes it all better. Yet you still have blind “faith” that there is a god, and not just any god, but specifically the god of the Bible, a god who must be worshipped in specific ways (such as by eating his flesh and drinking his blood in ceremonies led by men wearing strange outfits conducted in opulent surroundings), a god who has preordained your every breath. That may not make you a “complete moron,” at least not in the medical sense, but it doesn’t make you a sensible, rational person either, and it certainly doesn’t entitle you to any more respect or deference than anyone else who has silly, superstitious beliefs that fly in the face of all human knowledge.

  273. @ 270. Good. Because the truth is, your description of “debating with liberals” actually fits “debating with the religious” like yourself much better.

  274. As a member of the Christian Right, I feel you’re being too harsh here… Many of us realize that we are not worthy to judge, and that only God can do so. Therefore, we don’t condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour. We know that God will do it on judgement day. I would never encourage my children to bully gays in school and teach tolerance in my household. If one of my children were gay(God forbid! lol) I would understand that teens get easily confused what with the mixed messages via television and music these days, and explain to him how and where he could get councilling and recieve reprogramming and such. and I would pay for it out of his college money we have saved. So please don’t judge an entire faith based on the bullying perpetrated of a few lower class white trash hicks, some of still reserve judgement for the lord. Thank you- Claude T. Bagge

  275. As a member of the Christian Right, I feel you’re being too harsh here… Many of us realize that we are not worthy to judge, and that only God can do so. Therefore, we don’t condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour. We know that God will do it on judgement day. I would never encourage my children to bully gays in school and teach tolerance in my household. If one of my children were gay(God forbid! lol) I would understand that teens get easily confused what with the mixed messages via television and music these days, and explain to him how and where he could get councilling and recieve reprogramming and such. and I would pay for it out of his college money we have saved. So please don’t judge an entire faith based on the bullying perpetrated of a few lower class white trash hicks, some of still reserve judgement for the lord. Thank you- Claude T. Bagge

  276. @ As far as I’m concerned, your admission that “some people may be predisposed towards religious faith, and others may not” totally contradicts you earlier statement that “The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is”, which is indeed an “all or nothing proposition”, in your own words.

    I mean, the capacity for language is hardwired in the brain. Everybody with a relatively functioning brain has it. Everybody. (for example, deaf and dumb people will spontaneously make up a sign language between themselves if none has been taught to them).

    If some people do not have the predisposition for faith, while their brain functions just as normally as other people, than it’s not hardwired. It’s something you CHOOSE. That was my point.

  277. @265 : Faith – noun : belief that is not based on proof (Webster).

    Moron – noun : a person who is notably stupid or lacking in good judgment.

    I would put people who “believe without proof” to “lack good judgment”. So I think my statement is completely accurate!

  278. Or, to be fair, something that you develop for some reason or another.

    I respect the fact that you may develop it, but as Gal friday said, as long as it doesn’t threaten the separation of church and state… and my civil rights.

  279. @ 275 – Merely talking to your potentially gay child about reprogramming and other psychiological torture methods is bullying of the highest order. And it’s stripping someone of his/her right to be as “god” created him/her, ie gay.

    Furthermore, deciding that gays need to change is a judgment that, from your own admission, is not yours to make.

    Thank god (lol) I’m not your child.

  280. Religious zealots are un-American. The Constitution is a document that defines individual freedom. I haven’t figured out how homosexual people impede anyone’s individual freedom. However, the fundamentalist are all about limiting the freedom of others.

  281. @Hopeless3 (#195)

    “Unfortunately for the Christian hating community, the United States has a population of 85% Christians. The gay community has a tough road ahead of itself to get the rights they deserve…..”

    You’re not too informed. Guess what? The Christian and gay communities overlap. I think you have confused this forum with an atheist forum. You’d still be uninformed there, but at least on topic.

    “The only scientific argument against homosexuality is it’s a process that the continuation of the species due to the inability to create offspring.”

    That is not a scientific argument against homosexuality (or for it). It’s also irrelevant to a species that has artificial means of procreation (not to mention one that is heavily overpopulated).

    “The easiest way to under value and hurt your cause is to incite the group of people that whether you like it or not, you’ll have to go through to get your rights from.” And “Don’t make it harder for like minded individuals to get what they really want by lobbing low brow explitive ridden rants on Christianity.”

    That’s a tired and ridiculous meme. You said you are pro-gay marriage. Does the fact that some here have offended your tender sensibilities changed your mind to anti gay marriage? If not, you’ve proved your point is wrong. If so, you’ve proved yourself to be amoral.

    “Change in social norms is a slow process”

    That’s right. And in every last civil rights challenge anger at the injustices endured has been an absolutely necessary component.

  282. All I see here is Yay for telling a Christian to fuck off. I have news for you; not every Christian in the world thinks that gay people are evil. To say that they do is to hold up a similar stereotype like all gay men are pedophiles. That’s not the truth, and how big of a nelly spell would be thrown if someone posted that? As is the increasingly sad situation in the US, there is no middle ground. It’s us or them – in this instance the Christians squaring off against gay folk. My grandfather was a minister who taught that all people were “created” equal (I don’t buy into the Creationist Theory), and all are deserving of love and respect. This was old school Methodism. He never once condemned anyone from the pulpit, and would have never allowed any church member to do so publicly as a representative of his church, either. So, gay folk and associate hangers-on, stop throwing rocks at an entire group of people when that entire group isn’t throwing rocks at you. Take better aim, as you do have legitimate targets, just not every single person who claims a belief in God.

  283. Ricardo, I don’t think people’s religious faith should be a criterion for making public policy. I pose no threat to others’ civil rights, and I vote against politicians who can’t make the distinction between private belief and public policy.

    Does my supposition that some people may be predisposed NOT to have faith (unless you consider atheism a “faith” of sorts) not make sense to you? I don’t know if I’m expressing myself in an unclear manner, or if you’re predisposed (heh) to assume I’m not on the side of gay rights.

  284. All I see here is Yay for telling a Christian to fuck off. I have news for you; not every Christian in the world thinks that gay people are evil. To say that they do is to hold up a similar stereotype like all gay men are pedophiles. That’s not the truth, and how big of a nelly spell would be thrown if someone posted that? As is the increasingly sad situation in the US, there is no middle ground. It’s us or them – in this instance the Christians squaring off against gay folk. My grandfather was a minister who taught that all people were “created” equal (I don’t buy into the Creationist Theory), and all are deserving of love and respect. This was old school Methodism. He never once condemned anyone from the pulpit, and would have never allowed any church member to do so publicly as a representative of his church, either. So, gay folk and associate hangers-on, stop throwing rocks at an entire group of people when that entire group isn’t throwing rocks at you. Take better aim, as you do have legitimate targets, just not every single person who claims a belief in God.

  285. @281. One thing I don’t understand is why someone would even bother to discuss the “scientific” premise of Homo/Heterosexuality. What difference does it make? Since what people do in their bedroom does me no harm, why should we try and justify it? While fundamentalist attempt to control our life as a Orwell-ian society. And that is the true danger.

  288. @264 “The propensity to believe in a religious faith may be as hardwired in the brain as sexual preference is. Scientists are studying that very subject.”

    Sounds like a ridiculous and wasteful study to me. Link, research title, or some other source info please.

    Denialism though, that’s something I believe hardwired into the brain.

  289. I think what’s hardwired into the brain is a fear of death.

    Religion gives a lot of people a cozy baby blanket to tuck around them, so they don’t have to freak out about the unknown (or nonexistent) place they’re headed.

  290. @ 283 – Maybe I am not expressing myself right.

    I did not say YOU, personally, thought “people’s religious faith should be a criterion for making public policy”. As far as I can see, you said nothing of the sort. But that’s one of the main points touched on by Dan, so also one of the subjects of this discussion.

    What I was trying to say is : you have the right to choose any religion, or none at all; I respect that. The problem I, as a gay atheist, have with religions, is that some elements within those religions want to curb other people’s rights to fit their beliefs. And what may be worse is that very few elements within those religions are actually trying to stop that, even when it’s contrary to their supposed beliefs. So yeah, as a gay atheist, I have a lot of reason to be angry at christians. Don’t take it personally: If I lived in Iran, I’d have a lot of reasons to be angry at muslims instead.

    But when you say that faith is “hardwired in the brain”, unless you specify whose brain it is you are talking about, you are making a blanket statement, one which I and all other atheists prove wrong by our mere existence. If you counter my answer with the notion that there is a “predisposition” for faith in some, but not all human beings, the fact is that you are using contradictory arguments. Which one do you believe in? Are we born to believe in a faith or not? Having something “hardwired” means being condemned to it, not merely predisposed.

    Personnally, I don’t think I was born NOT to believe, I just figured out for myself that the bible doesn’t make any sense and, if god is infallible, it can’t have been written by him (since it’s incoherent). Therefore, the bible and anything based on it is a creation of mankind, fallible, and I refuse to base my life on what it says, or let people tell me I should. That was just an example of me using logic, and not even deep logic, as I was only 11.

    It wasn’t the outcome of me having been born with anything hardwired for or against faith. It was just basic logic.

  291. @285 Well if you ever figure it out, let me know! My best guess is that it’s all fear based. Fear that homosexuality is communicable, fear of anything different…perhaps even fear of being left out.

  292. Ah, Ricardo, I see where you’re coming from now. I didn’t write that people’s faith is hardwired in their brains. What I was trying to say is that the tendency to believe in a religious faith MAY be hardwired in SOME people’s brains. Like I wrote, science is studying whether this is actually the case; no one knows for sure at this point.

    I can respect anyone who rejects religious faith for him- or herself (for whatever reason), and allows for the fact that others have the freedom to do otherwise.

    We left the church we got married in because the minister who took the place of the guy who married us (and then retired) talked about how gay marriage is wrong during his second sermon–and I let him know that was why we were leaving, too. I don’t have much respect for Christians who act like we’re not supposed to use our brains to question why things are the way they are, and explore what we can do to right human wrongs.

  293. Re: condemnation of teh gayz, I don’t know if it’s “hardwiring” or not, but I do think most people have an instinctive desire to feel superior. It’s like the pecking order you see in some birds. As long as someone is kept at the bottom of the totem pole, it means these other people are not. So they are invested in demonizing and demoralizing gays so they can feel that they themselves aren’t so bad.

    Speaking of birds, it might also have something to do with what Kosinski formed his novel “The Painted Bird” around. In the book, a sadist likes to catch birds and paint them with bright colors and designs. Then he lets the bird back into it’s flock, and watches the other fowl freak out because they can sense the bird is one of their own, but also very different. So they peck it to death when it keeps trying to mingle with them.

    I guess that’s about the desire for conformity, and the fear of The Other (?)

  294. @275, Brilliant! This reads as picture-perfect satire. However, on the off chance that you were serious, all I can say is, ‘Jesus God!’

  296. Oh, and Ricardo: I’m willing to let go of my end of the rope, as far as the “hardwired” vs. “logic” discussion goes. In the grand scheme of things, it’s not that big a deal. Social equality for non-heteros is much more important.

  299. @263 Gee, did we hurt your feelings? AGAIN? Shame on us. Wait, no. Fuck you. The golden rule (and this is supposedly Jesus talking, BTW) is “do unto others as you would have them do unto you”. Another Bible verse you might enjoy is “by their fruit you will know them”. So yeah, the day gay kids stop dying because “Christian” role models no longer condone despicable behaviour by behaving like bigoted douche-wads is the day we start treating you with respect. Treating me as subhuman does not entitle you to respect. In the meantime, I respectfully request that you go fuck yourself.

    And yeah, swearing does make me feel better.

  300. You know, I don’t know if this really matters to anyone, but I just want to say that I’m an average 30 year old straight woman, and I support and vote for gay marriage and equal civic rights. People like me exist. I really want any person in our nation be able to marry and have or adopt children without issue. For me it’s that simple, like the Sesame Street of my youth. All people are humans with feelings who deserve to be treated with respect. I know that there are a lot of people like me out there, so have hope folks – the older we get – the more of us will get off our lazy asses and start voting!! I know that erasing the stigma and fear of gay hate is a different kind of challenge, but don’t lose hope. Things can change. Things will change. That’s what I wanted to say.

  301. Here’s to hoping that the older we get the more of us will get off our lazy asses and start voting. Things can change. Things will change.

  302. )h criminy pete for sakes, doesn’t this site have drunk goggles? I didn’t mean to post twice, or the first time, for that matter.

  304. @ 292 Of course, If you had said at first that “the tendency to believe in a religious faith MAY be hardwired in SOME people’s brain”, I would never have had anything to criticize about your post. That seems a rather fair assumption.

    I also have nothing to say against the christian faith, I just wish more christians practiced it. You say you’re one of those truly practicing christians. Great! Wish there were more like you.

    You have every right to believe what you want to believe in, but I like people to be coherent and to practice what they preach, which in the end is what I think you ‘ll find behind all the anger here: resentment for being told how we should behave, and what rights we should have, by generally amoral people who don’t follow their own rules. Its the hypocritical nature of religions that gets us so worked up.

    Let us not forget that no institution or government has done more wrong in the history of this world than the vatican – by persecuting, killing / allowing or authorizing the massacre of millions of innocents, with the inquisition, the crusades and the conquest of the Americas, the covered-up sexual abuses, and the general ignorance in which they have tried to maintain the population throughout the centuries so no-one would question them. Unfortunately, the protestant religions, which began as an opposition to the morally corrupt catholic church, became themselves just as morally corrupt… We may rage about islam now, but they haven’t yet reached that level (although I have no doubt they will, given some more time).

    History has taught us that this is the nature of religions. We’d be foolish to ignore the lessons of History.

    The fact of the matter is that I can’t stop religious people from believing in whatever magic sky friend they want to believe in, nor should I want too. Whatever lifts your luggage, as they say. But that’s only as long as it doesn’t infringe on the separation of State and church and it doesn’t hurt anyone. And sadly, in our world, in 2010, IT DOES.

  306. Wow. This is an impressive post.

    I’m a pastor in a church that supports gay marriage, welcomes our gay membership (into leadership positions) and are currently hosting a study on transgendered issues. we feel tolerance is a bad word, because we should celebrate and embrace the diversity of God’s creation, not merely “tolerate” it.

    I understand the anger in this post, but it seemed that irrationality took over. You didn’t hurt my feelings (especially since I agree with you on gay rights), you hurt your cause. The words and actions of Jesus are among your biggest allies, but many institutions have co-opted them. Those specific institutions should be your targets, but in your anger you seem to be using a scattergun when an elephant gun would do better.

    Obviously, you can continue to spew irrationality, using the hurt that some others have unjustly caused you and others to justify hateful words that encompass all who might in some way be similar to your intended target, but it seems like that might be counter-productive.

    Or maybe churches that align themselves with the cause that you rightfully promote are simply collateral damage, in which case, who cares? Just some hateful speech that goes where it isn’t really deserved. Oh. That’s right – that’s what we were talking about in the first place. Funny how that works….

  309. The letter writer says that no one is any better or worthy. But her own admission that she doesn’t believe in gay marriage, says that gays aren’t worthy of a life long loving relationship. I say this as a straight woman who attends church every Sunday and vociferously advocates that we can’t say we love everybody until we grant everyone equal rites for marriage and family.

  310. WTF? Religion is but a set of ideas and like politics which are also a set of ideas is not protected from satire, mockery and well just about any form of speech. As free citizens we can decide if something is sacred or not. No law can compel us to recognize something as holy. In the U.S. the first ten amendments to the Constitution trumps the Ten Commandments. That is why it is the US Supreme Court struck down all laws against blasphemy in 1954. We can call Jesus a fraud, Mohammad a jackass or mock the holy spirit with impunity. If this hurts your feelings I say get a life.

  311. I know you probably won’t get down to # 311, Mr. Savage, but thank you. What you have written here is relevant not only to teen gay suicide, but also to the across the board, farcical “who, me?” attitude of dominant and oppressive groups in our society.

  312. Bravo Dan. As for all you Christians who say “don’t raise your voice against Christians because our sect is welcoming” I ask why isn’t your voice against the Christians who treat gays badly? In your silence and lack of public criticism you give implied consent to these others who call themselves Christians. Rather than telling us to be silent you should be among the loudest voices and not shrugging and whispering “they’re not real Christians”.

  313. You, Dan Savage, are a true hero. I have just spent almost three hours on the YouTube “It Gets Better” site and am in awe…..you have found a non-confrontational way to reach out, show compassion, provide hope and save lives. I am a straight single mother of three children and I am so worried about the world they are living in – it isn’t just the hatred but the complete and utter lack of the ability to self-assess and recognize where and when discrimination is present in words and actions….WTF?!?! Anyway, I am babbling but I am truly touched by what you’re doing and I will commit to spreading the word as best I can for you. True freedom is when you can live in your own skin without the fear of judgement and/or ridicule….fight for freedom! Thank you for helping to make the world a better place for my children!

  315. It cracks me up when Christians say, as LR does, “how do you justify judging entire groups of people for their faith?” It makes me think of when I was a young Jewish girl and the Christian students would bombard me with “well meaning” questions and comments. It makes me laugh to imagine me doing the same to them. To demand answers to why they don’t believe what I do or to tell them plainly that they are wrong and going to hell if they don’t. I could never do that because I was not allowed – only Christians can lay judgement and dictate other people’s lives. They are the default and acceptable belief and we all must prove ourselves to them, never vice versa.

  316. “Gay kids are dying” because they’re being bullied by other kids (kids who attempt suicide are not always “gay”) You are wasting time attacking the Mormon church when you could be doing something that might make a difference. Teach those you know about love, acceptance, tolerance. Let those of us who would live our lives in peace, do so. Volunteer at a school to help kids at risk see that they are worth something. Suicides are not usually because of a person’s “gender” issues. Check it out…

  317. “Gay kids are dying” because they’re being bullied by other kids (kids who attempt suicide are not always “gay”) You are wasting time attacking the Mormon church when you could be doing something that might make a difference. Teach those you know about love, acceptance, tolerance. Let those of us who would live our lives in peace, do so. Volunteer at a school to help kids at risk see that they are worth something. Suicides are not usually because of a person’s “gender” issues. Check it out…

  318. Just another reason why you are the most articulate spokesperson, that people who seek a rational, equal world could ever hope for. Bravo on a perfectly worded clear concise essay.

  319. Seriously?? So, according to “you”, it is “wrong” for religious people to “judge” others because of their sexual preference, but it’s “ok” for “you” to “judge” people based on their whether or not they go to church?? Come on, you are doing exactly what you say you are against, and they’re the hypocrite? Sure… While I am not a religious person myself, I consider myself to be a spiritual person, one who believes in a God that sees each and every one of us for who we truly are and what type of a person we are on the inside, whether black, white, rich, poor, and YES, even gay or straight. You cannot group and condemn all people that believe in God together while saying they’re wrong for grouping and condemning those that are gay, without being a hypocrite. You might want to look at yourself before you start pointing fingers. And I’m already expecting you to make some type of a supposedly justified comment, so don’t bother wondering if it’s going to “hurt my feelings” because for that to happen, I would first have to actually “care” about your opinions. I’m not writing this thinking that any of my words would actually get through your thick skull, but to those who see every lover of God as a hateful, bigot. Some of us live in the world of grey and not black and white. Some of us have friends and family that are gay, even if we are not. Is that wrong? If so, then wouldn’t it be wrong for any gay person to have friends or family that are straight? None of us are perfect, not one gay or straight person in the world. I don’t know who you are, maybe a radio personality or something, I just saw this as a link from a friend’s fb page and thought it would be an interesting read. Well, I was right, you made it interesting by giving me something to laugh at for a while. I’m definitely coming back to this site whenever I need a good laugh.

    If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest man in the world, (:

  320. Seriously?? So, according to “you”, it is “wrong” for religious people to “judge” others because of their sexual preference, but it’s “ok” for “you” to “judge” people based on their whether or not they go to church?? Come on, you are doing exactly what you say you are against, and they’re the hypocrite? Sure… While I am not a religious person myself, I consider myself to be a spiritual person, one who believes in a God that sees each and every one of us for who we truly are and what type of a person we are on the inside, whether black, white, rich, poor, and YES, even gay or straight. You cannot group and condemn all people that believe in God together while saying they’re wrong for grouping and condemning those that are gay, without being a hypocrite. You might want to look at yourself before you start pointing fingers. And I’m already expecting you to make some type of a supposedly justified comment, so don’t bother wondering if it’s going to “hurt my feelings” because for that to happen, I would first have to actually “care” about your opinions. I’m not writing this thinking that any of my words would actually get through your thick skull, but to those who see every lover of God as a hateful, bigot. Some of us live in the world of grey and not black and white. Some of us have friends and family that are gay, even if we are not. Is that wrong? If so, then wouldn’t it be wrong for any gay person to have friends or family that are straight? None of us are perfect, not one gay or straight person in the world. I don’t know who you are, maybe a radio personality or something, I just saw this as a link from a friend’s fb page and thought it would be an interesting read. Well, I was right, you made it interesting by giving me something to laugh at for a while. I’m definitely coming back to this site whenever I need a good laugh.

    If ignorance is bliss, you must be the happiest man in the world, (:

  321. @mamasweetpea

    Not every religious person, only the bigoted ones who espouse an unequal world, which sadly seems to be the majority, And especially unconstitutionally try and subvert our basic human civil rights at the ballot box. Why can’t some Christians see that it isn’t hypocritical to be intolerant of intolerance. See Sheryl’s post on number 12 for an example of a Christian we have no issue with, and applaud. So yes we are bigoted against bigotry whether they are religious agnostic, or atheist. Talk about a thick skull…or a vestigial brain. Why can’t you understand this???? No really why?

  322. I would add that there are a lot of Christians who support gay marriage and absolutely do not believe that being LGBT means you’re condemned to hell. But it is extremely upsetting that many people use a faith founded on acceptance in order to support their own bigotry and violence. From what I remember of Catholic school, Jesus went around accepting people others thought were “unworthy” of God’s love.

  323. Did that hurt to hear? Good. But hearing it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as what the boys in the photo above had to listen to…

    And it couldn’t have hurt nearly as much as hearing that your child committed suicide because of what they had to listen to…

    Right there with you Dan…

    FUCK YOUR FEELINGS

  324. OK, I could respond to every post here but I have already said so much. This will be my last post and since I can’t figure out how to respond to the person directly (I am computer stupid) here are a few responses;
    To ALL the Chrsitians who say “everyone is bulllied not just gay kids”, If a black person is called the N word, it hurts more and affects them more than it does a white person, IF Gay kids are 4 times more likely to kill themselfs, and being called Queer and Faggot hits them harder than it would a straight kid, it is NOT a case of “everyone is bullied”!!
    GrrrlRomeo poster188- I agree with you 100%, great post!
    Posters 262, 267, 268 You all say thinsg well and things I agree with (while I am NOT an athiest, I am NO longer a Chrsitian after 50 years). 269, YES! Great points and well said!!

    gabrielg78 poster 261- You compleatly missed the point of everyone on here who critisized religion/Chrstianity. You whine that we are useing YOUR own biggoted tactics against you and also that attacking Christians are wrong casue Islam is worse! If YOU Christians had your way you would (and do in Africa) KILL people just for being Gay! You think your choice is valid and everyone else is wrong! You have the ARROGANCE to think YOU have the one true way! YOU DO NOT!! Being Gay is NOT a choice and being a BIGOTED CHRISTIAN IS!

  325. Mamasweetpea-

    It’s okay to judge people who are saying untrue things like religious people of your type do to gays. That’s different than judging a sexual orientation that doesn’t involve slandering or hurting anyone. Very easy-to-understand difference here.

    No more special rights for religious people. We should be able to point out how these inaccurate and hurtful statements by Christians are bad for the world and hurtful to youth and others, without the whining by the “you can’t criticize my views because their my fa-a-a-a-a-a-a-ith” crap.

  326. @19:

    You think homosexual behavior, premarital sex, and having children outside of marriage all cause misery, suffering, unhappiness, broken lives and unfulfilled dreams??

    Wow.

    One question: Where exactly is your Taliban cave in Pakistan located and how do you get internet access there?

  327. #306 – what a disappointing comment. Show me anything irrational in Dan’s response to the letter writer.

    I completely agree with you about the word tolerance. Diversity should be embraced, not tolerated. But I am always very suspicious of those purportedly for a cause telling others their voices are too strident.

    If you really do support equal marriage then focus your voice on the opposition. Dan’s anger over the continued harassment and deaths of children is controlled and powerful. Go find any social movement that got anywhere without justified anger. If you can’t, then STFU.

  329. All Christians (and I am one) should recall what Jesus himself said about homosexuals and homosexuality–nothing. Not one word. He did however talk rather a lot about kindness, about love and about not hurting anyone. I would posit it was THAT message, not any particular claims of divine parentage, that touched a chord in my own and countless other souls across the centuries. When he said “I give my life into torture and death for your sake” he didn’t add any kind of exception based on sexual orientation. On the contrary, he urged forgiveness even of things he clearly DID regard as sins. He healed a soldier come to arrest and torture him to death. He persuaded a crowd not to stone an adulteress. He made the point time and again that to obey a rule blindly was not the way to find God. Yet so many Christians seize upon (very selective) rules of a bronze age culture or treat the words of a man (i.e. St. Paul) as infallible in their efforts to justify bigotry.

    And they reap what they have sewn. Pain. Injustice. Dead children.

  331. Hello, to start off I want to tell you that I am gay. With that being said, I do feel that you are wrong here. At least in part. To say “F*ck your feelings” is doing the same type of thing as what happened to these young boys and is very wrong. Secondly, The way in which you speak about gay youths and the way that they are treated does imply that this is only happening to gay youths and that is Not a fact!

    Children from all facets of life undergo discrimination from their peers. Perhaps gay youth more than others, perhaps not. Needless to say there have been many, many, Many teen suicides with no direct links to sexuality per se. Yes, I will say that it is likely several of the cases were of youths who suffered in silence due to their sexuality and for them my heart breaks! But, it is statistically improbable that all or even most of these cases could be due to sexuality. There is a whole gamut of reasons that people hurt and choose to take their own life and NONE of them are more or less important than the rest. Sexuality or otherwise!

    I agree with whomever sent you this message that said you should watch your words. They bear venom and venom kills… the very thing with which you are angry!

  332. That was AWESOME! You had me at Fuck Your Feelings – that’s what we’ve been doing to ourselves for generations!! I happen to be one of the few “lucky ones” who has been supported by most family and friends since day 1 of coming out but I know WAY too many people who were/are not so lucky. Keep on keepin on Dan!!

  333. anti-kudos to forming a world view based on exceedingly poor epistemic foundations.

    also, props to mr. savage for another well-reasoned piece.

    ps. can we start taxing religious organizations, plz?

  335. Thank you Dan, I couldn’t have said it better, in fact, I know I couldn’t have said it better. It’s about time we, those of us who are truly the majority in this nation, shun and abhor those pretend Xtians who think they have a right to use their religion like a club to beat down all those who they see as lesser. Their false sense of superiority is not only unjustified, but dangerous and it is up to those of us who, like you, are sick to death of their hiding their hatred behind religion, call them on and make them answer for it.

    To LR, when whatever one of the Heinz57 of Christianity you subscribe to cast out the Hatemongers for Jesus you allow among you, and stop teaching your children to hate in the name of God, only then will we stop calling you hatemongers and religofascists. “You hypocrite, first take the plank out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye” – Matthew 7:5

  336. Dan, you have gotten well-deserved praise for pointing out the bigotry and persecution perperpetrated by those people who would call themselves Christians, but I have to protest the fact that you ascribed the same hatred and damnation espoused by Christian fundamentalists to Jesus Christ himself. As a reader of the Bible from childhood I have to agree with what others have said here that Jesus would never condemn a person for loving another person and that he would look upon us all as the loved, cherished children of God. Your statement ” to say nothing of the gentle “savior” they’ve heard so much about, a gentle and loving father who will condemn them to hell for the sin of falling in love with the wrong person.” is completely off the mark. Please do not repeat the fallacies of bigots and paint everyone, even Jesus Christ with the same broad brush.

  337. Amen.

    I love my religious friends who put their actions behind their faith. They condemn any type of bullying and do not commit stealth hate with the inane “hate the sin/love the sinner” message. As for those other religious types who brag about their faith but promote (intentionally or not) an agenda of bullying and intolerance — well, you said it best. Fuck their feelings.

    If a person of faith feels the need to add a disclaimer such as, “but I don’t support gay marriage” — well, fuck them, too.

    While I am on a roll, fuck beets too. They are icky.

  338. Amen.

    I love my religious friends who put their actions behind their faith. They condemn any type of bullying and do not commit stealth hate with the inane “hate the sin/love the sinner” message. As for those other religious types who brag about their faith but promote (intentionally or not) an agenda of bullying and intolerance — well, you said it best. Fuck their feelings.

    If a person of faith feels the need to add a disclaimer such as, “but I don’t support gay marriage” — well, fuck them, too.

    While I am on a roll, fuck beets too. They are icky.

  342. Ok. I’m heartbroken about the loss of our children, as I know my savior, Jesus Christ is. He died for ALL people, and he Loves ALL people. Regardless of sexual preference, skin color, and even whether or not they commit murder. I just wish the hate would stop. Our world should be big enough for all people to live together. Ridicule and abuse of another human being is wrong for any reason. My God, my Jesus, loves the whole world so much he chose to DIE for it! Not for anyone who is not gay. He loves everyone as we all should. It is not our place to judge.

  343. Lame response, Dan. You can do better than that. Blaming homosexual guilt on the church? Widen your gaze Dan, you’re really missing it. The real problem is the human conscience. Let’s get rid of that and then we can do whatever the hell we want.

  346. Why is it when ever someone says “Humanity isn’t perfect” or “the bible says we’re all sinners…” the next thing they usually do is open their flapping gums and prove that very statement?

  347. Why is it when ever someone says “Humanity isn’t perfect” or “the bible says we’re all sinners…” the next thing they usually do is open their flapping gums and prove that very statement?

  348. I want to know how someone can justify a belief in Darwin’s theories of survival of the fittest but still claim that a gay lifestyle is completely normal. Does that idea that we are simply animals trying to spread our seed not go against lifestyle led by homosexuals that doesn’t spread a person’s gene pool around. It seems that one or both of these ideas have to be wrong.

  349. Government needs to get out of the business of marriage, period. All “marriages” should be prenuptial agreements like any other civil or business contract.

  352. how often do we hear the complaint about how ‘moderate muslims’ do not speak out against attrocities committed by their fellow muslims?
    yet, on this comment board alone, we have many christians asserting that they are gay-lovin’ non-haters…so why do we never hear them calling out their brothers-in-christ?? it’s not just southern baptists who rail against gay people in the name of their god..the catholics and mormons and methodists and presbyterians, et al, readily join the chorus of condemnation of gay people and contribute mightily to efforts to deny gay citizens their civil rights. until you ‘moderate christians’ clean up your own houses of worship, i don’t want to hear how different you are from all the other believers in your magic sky friend. the blood of the gay souls that we’ve lost is on your hands as much as it’s on the claws of the phelps clan.

  353. The failure of the bible to recognize and celebrate homosexual love in an equal manner to hetrosexual love should immediately stand out to followers of christ as something odd about the bible. Since every person, regardless of their sexual orientation, knows and feels sexuality within themselves and knows and experiences attractions of a sexual nature towards persons to whom they are sexually attracted to also knows that these feelings spring from whitin themselves and they don’t have to do anything to cause those feelings to occur, they just do. And everybody also knows that its not really possible to make oneself feel sexually attracted to someone they are not actually sexually attracted to. Deep down we all know this. And well all also know that these feelings spring forth from within us from within our deepest purest place. That place inside of us that has always been there from the beginning. From when we were children all through life. And we all also know that throughout our lives other people around us experience sexuallity slightly differently. We are educated all through our lives as other people for one reason or another tell us what they like sexually. And we all know that there isn’t really any one particular sexual act that everybody likes. We learn as we mature that whatever we may like sexually probably won’t be identical to even the closest to us.

    And so it appears that for followers of christ there is a problem. Since we’re edcuated by others that what satisfys my own sexual appitite may not satisfy another persons sexual tastes we learn that other people feel things that we may not ourselves necessarily feel. And since we also know deep down that our sexual feelings stem from the purest part of us we know that what we feel is inheriently right for us then we must believe that when others tell us of what their sexual appitites are then we know that those feelings are also right and pure even though they mayt not match our own. And so from these experiences, first of knowing one’s own sexual desires and knowing they are pure in and of themselves because they were always a part of us, and second from learning that other people feel other sexual feelings we don’t, then we can know that all sexual feelings that everyone has from their purest place inside themselves are all pure and real and right and correct.

    From that we can know then that anyone or anything or any organization that singles out certain sexual desires which stem equally from the pure place inside another person just as our own sexual feelings flow from the purest place inside of us as wrong in any way when all the participants of that sexual act are consenting adults then we can know that the person or book or organization who is calling these sexual things “wrong” is actually mistaken. From that we have no choice but to look at the person or book or organization who is spreading this misinformation about sexuality and consider the idea that either the person speading this untrue idea has had no sexual education at all and doesn’t yet know that other people have other sexual feelings or that they person, book or organization spreading this false idea has indeed been educated about human sexuality and the many forms it takes. Since its unrealistic to think that grown adults in this day and age would ever be so uneducated about human sexuality as to unknowingly spread lies which condem certain human sexual desires and acts by presenting the lies as “truth” and be comepletely unaware that they were spreading lies when they thought they were spreading “truth” we must assume that the person, book or organization is knowingly spreading lies.

    In the face of all this we must look again at the bible and now we realize that the bible has a flaw. That any condemenation of homosexuality that it presents is, in fact, a lie. And a most horrific and unhuman lie at that. And so we must step back. For now we have found a flaw in the bible. Now we must look at the bible more closely and in doing so we find that, in fact, there are many more lies in the bible. How it is possible that followers of christ can overlook all the lies in the bible is incomprehensible. Today education abounds. There is no reason to accept foolishness spewed from the pages of the bible. There is no reason to bother with it at all, nor is there any reason to look at persons who claim that the bible is correct because we know that without a doubt there is something wrong with anyone who claims that what is in the bible should be obeyed in some way. We can see clearly now that for anyone to push lies with great fervor has got some other hidden adgenda. A brief study of history quickly shows that religon has been the most successfull tool ever invented by humans to enslave other humans. Now that we see the bible is flawed we can see the foolishness that the bible presents as a whole. And that foolishness is simply this: that, according to the bible, if a person does exactly what their religion interprets the bible to tell them to, and if that person will ignore all but the bible and do just what the bible and other followers of the bible and their religious leaders tell them to do then they will win a prize. And its the biggest prize of all, that the person will, after he dies, get another life, one that goes one forever. And the only price of this prize is that one give his enitre seventy or eighty years of life following inhuman rules as dictated by the bible and its followers. And after that, after the person dies, he can collect on this bet.

    Yet, there isn’t a lick of evidence at all that this big prize has ever been collected on by anyone anywhere, ever. There is absolutely no proof that the big prize exists. None. None at all. In fact, the only clear winners anyone can ever see are the churches who get our money during our lifetime and the religious leaders who get our money while we’re alive. In facf, there has never been any proof anytime anywhere ever that anyone other than religious leaders ever get any kind of payoff on this arrangement. They get your life and loyalty and they don’t even have to pay off on the bet themselves, they’ve got you so boondoggled that they’ve convinced you that some big thing somewhere, some big force or entitly or whatever it is is going to pay off that bet for them to you. And here’s the truly insane part, you can’t collect on this bet till AFTER YOU DIE.

    Any rational person who sets down and thinks this out realizes what nonsense the bible is. And what nonsense those who follow christ spew forth into the world. Followers of chirst ignore all the real facts about life and living and the earth and the universe available to them that are verified time and time again by scientists and even their own neighbors who can see that what is going on in the real world are the real facts of life. Which means that anyone who imagines some other fantasy world is ignoring the real one. And anyone who ignores the real world isn’t really in their right mind. They are people who need help. They spread lies to children. They harm children in this way, in fact. They give their money to religions that ignore truth, which persecute non-followers of their religion by telling their followers to do things and say things whih simply are not true. And they bully non-followers by waiving this life after death nonsense around appealing to our own fear of dying. The followers of the bible and of christ and of christanity and of religion and of any religion are all person who ignore the real world and the clear observable truth of how life really is which is all around us every second of the day every second of our lives and instead dwell inside their minds in a fantasy land where nothing is as it seems and where magical things can happen from a being that has never showin itsel to any human living today. That is just crazy.

    Ujnfortunatly that means that anyone who folllows the bible or christ or christanity or any religion at all is crazy. But they don’t realize it. And yet they are and need help. Serious psychological help. But our society is so horriffcially swamped in the madness caused by religion that the people who are sane and rational and who do not practice any religion are, in fact, thought of as being “wrong”.

    And so we’re left with this. Rational people present facts to followers of christ over and over and over and yet those burdened by religious madness find enough support from the other people crazed by this madnees born of religion and so the crazy religion continues onward spreading its lies. Until doctors and psychologists can find a treatement and hopefully a cure for religious madness we just have to hope that some of this will get through to the followers of the bible and they will stop spreading their lies and change their ways and come into the real world. But its hard for a person who has lived a fantasy for most, if not all of their lives to come out of it on their own.

    So, to the follower of christ who may read this or who wrote that original letter, I don’t know how to reach you except to be one of those in the real world who repeats the truth for you again, here, and hope that some flicker of recognition will get through your religious madness and help you find a way to sanity. And to those who follow christ and can’t find a way out of that madness I hope that one day we can find a way, some kind of treatment to bring you out of your madness and give you back the life that is real and true and that you might enjoy before you die. For there is no prize after death. Life is all we have. Lets enjoy it. I beg those of you who spread lies born of your religion to stop doing so and to find your way to us in reality. Its so heartbreaking to witness the lies of religion and what it does to our society, and particularly to our children.

    Take care follower of christ. the lies you spread i know you think you’re spreading them becxause they’re true, but they’re not. if you can’t understand reason, I don’t know what to do without the help of doctors and nurses to help you come out of your madness. But nobody is treating religious madness. You, followers of christ, have bullied all of our society into believing lies.

    There is nothing wrong with homosexual acts. In fact, if you want to know the whole truth, sin itself doesn’t even exist. There is no such thing as sin. No god, no heaven, no hell, no sin. Non of that nonsense exites.

    Its just us, here, now, living. And those who havve died are decayed and gone forever, just as we all will one day. And there is no prize afterwards. No eternal bliss, no eternal suffering. Nothing at all.

    Live your life and don’t try to use it to buy some magic beans. Don’t be a sap and go for a prize you are promised to get after you die. Thats just crazy.

  354. The failure of the bible to recognize and celebrate homosexual love in an equal manner to hetrosexual love should immediately stand out to followers of christ as something odd about the bible. Since every person, regardless of their sexual orientation, knows and feels sexuality within themselves and knows and experiences attractions of a sexual nature towards persons to whom they are sexually attracted to also knows that these feelings spring from whitin themselves and they don’t have to do anything to cause those feelings to occur, they just do. And everybody also knows that its not really possible to make oneself feel sexually attracted to someone they are not actually sexually attracted to. Deep down we all know this. And well all also know that these feelings spring forth from within us from within our deepest purest place. That place inside of us that has always been there from the beginning. From when we were children all through life. And we all also know that throughout our lives other people around us experience sexuallity slightly differently. We are educated all through our lives as other people for one reason or another tell us what they like sexually. And we all know that there isn’t really any one particular sexual act that everybody likes. We learn as we mature that whatever we may like sexually probably won’t be identical to even the closest to us.

    And so it appears that for followers of christ there is a problem. Since we’re edcuated by others that what satisfys my own sexual appitite may not satisfy another persons sexual tastes we learn that other people feel things that we may not ourselves necessarily feel. And since we also know deep down that our sexual feelings stem from the purest part of us we know that what we feel is inheriently right for us then we must believe that when others tell us of what their sexual appitites are then we know that those feelings are also right and pure even though they mayt not match our own. And so from these experiences, first of knowing one’s own sexual desires and knowing they are pure in and of themselves because they were always a part of us, and second from learning that other people feel other sexual feelings we don’t, then we can know that all sexual feelings that everyone has from their purest place inside themselves are all pure and real and right and correct.

    From that we can know then that anyone or anything or any organization that singles out certain sexual desires which stem equally from the pure place inside another person just as our own sexual feelings flow from the purest place inside of us as wrong in any way when all the participants of that sexual act are consenting adults then we can know that the person or book or organization who is calling these sexual things “wrong” is actually mistaken. From that we have no choice but to look at the person or book or organization who is spreading this misinformation about sexuality and consider the idea that either the person speading this untrue idea has had no sexual education at all and doesn’t yet know that other people have other sexual feelings or that they person, book or organization spreading this false idea has indeed been educated about human sexuality and the many forms it takes. Since its unrealistic to think that grown adults in this day and age would ever be so uneducated about human sexuality as to unknowingly spread lies which condem certain human sexual desires and acts by presenting the lies as “truth” and be comepletely unaware that they were spreading lies when they thought they were spreading “truth” we must assume that the person, book or organization is knowingly spreading lies.

    In the face of all this we must look again at the bible and now we realize that the bible has a flaw. That any condemenation of homosexuality that it presents is, in fact, a lie. And a most horrific and unhuman lie at that. And so we must step back. For now we have found a flaw in the bible. Now we must look at the bible more closely and in doing so we find that, in fact, there are many more lies in the bible. How it is possible that followers of christ can overlook all the lies in the bible is incomprehensible. Today education abounds. There is no reason to accept foolishness spewed from the pages of the bible. There is no reason to bother with it at all, nor is there any reason to look at persons who claim that the bible is correct because we know that without a doubt there is something wrong with anyone who claims that what is in the bible should be obeyed in some way. We can see clearly now that for anyone to push lies with great fervor has got some other hidden adgenda. A brief study of history quickly shows that religon has been the most successfull tool ever invented by humans to enslave other humans. Now that we see the bible is flawed we can see the foolishness that the bible presents as a whole. And that foolishness is simply this: that, according to the bible, if a person does exactly what their religion interprets the bible to tell them to, and if that person will ignore all but the bible and do just what the bible and other followers of the bible and their religious leaders tell them to do then they will win a prize. And its the biggest prize of all, that the person will, after he dies, get another life, one that goes one forever. And the only price of this prize is that one give his enitre seventy or eighty years of life following inhuman rules as dictated by the bible and its followers. And after that, after the person dies, he can collect on this bet.

    Yet, there isn’t a lick of evidence at all that this big prize has ever been collected on by anyone anywhere, ever. There is absolutely no proof that the big prize exists. None. None at all. In fact, the only clear winners anyone can ever see are the churches who get our money during our lifetime and the religious leaders who get our money while we’re alive. In facf, there has never been any proof anytime anywhere ever that anyone other than religious leaders ever get any kind of payoff on this arrangement. They get your life and loyalty and they don’t even have to pay off on the bet themselves, they’ve got you so boondoggled that they’ve convinced you that some big thing somewhere, some big force or entitly or whatever it is is going to pay off that bet for them to you. And here’s the truly insane part, you can’t collect on this bet till AFTER YOU DIE.

    Any rational person who sets down and thinks this out realizes what nonsense the bible is. And what nonsense those who follow christ spew forth into the world. Followers of chirst ignore all the real facts about life and living and the earth and the universe available to them that are verified time and time again by scientists and even their own neighbors who can see that what is going on in the real world are the real facts of life. Which means that anyone who imagines some other fantasy world is ignoring the real one. And anyone who ignores the real world isn’t really in their right mind. They are people who need help. They spread lies to children. They harm children in this way, in fact. They give their money to religions that ignore truth, which persecute non-followers of their religion by telling their followers to do things and say things whih simply are not true. And they bully non-followers by waiving this life after death nonsense around appealing to our own fear of dying. The followers of the bible and of christ and of christanity and of religion and of any religion are all person who ignore the real world and the clear observable truth of how life really is which is all around us every second of the day every second of our lives and instead dwell inside their minds in a fantasy land where nothing is as it seems and where magical things can happen from a being that has never showin itsel to any human living today. That is just crazy.

    Ujnfortunatly that means that anyone who folllows the bible or christ or christanity or any religion at all is crazy. But they don’t realize it. And yet they are and need help. Serious psychological help. But our society is so horriffcially swamped in the madness caused by religion that the people who are sane and rational and who do not practice any religion are, in fact, thought of as being “wrong”.

    And so we’re left with this. Rational people present facts to followers of christ over and over and over and yet those burdened by religious madness find enough support from the other people crazed by this madnees born of religion and so the crazy religion continues onward spreading its lies. Until doctors and psychologists can find a treatement and hopefully a cure for religious madness we just have to hope that some of this will get through to the followers of the bible and they will stop spreading their lies and change their ways and come into the real world. But its hard for a person who has lived a fantasy for most, if not all of their lives to come out of it on their own.

    So, to the follower of christ who may read this or who wrote that original letter, I don’t know how to reach you except to be one of those in the real world who repeats the truth for you again, here, and hope that some flicker of recognition will get through your religious madness and help you find a way to sanity. And to those who follow christ and can’t find a way out of that madness I hope that one day we can find a way, some kind of treatment to bring you out of your madness and give you back the life that is real and true and that you might enjoy before you die. For there is no prize after death. Life is all we have. Lets enjoy it. I beg those of you who spread lies born of your religion to stop doing so and to find your way to us in reality. Its so heartbreaking to witness the lies of religion and what it does to our society, and particularly to our children.

    Take care follower of christ. the lies you spread i know you think you’re spreading them becxause they’re true, but they’re not. if you can’t understand reason, I don’t know what to do without the help of doctors and nurses to help you come out of your madness. But nobody is treating religious madness. You, followers of christ, have bullied all of our society into believing lies.

    There is nothing wrong with homosexual acts. In fact, if you want to know the whole truth, sin itself doesn’t even exist. There is no such thing as sin. No god, no heaven, no hell, no sin. Non of that nonsense exites.

    Its just us, here, now, living. And those who havve died are decayed and gone forever, just as we all will one day. And there is no prize afterwards. No eternal bliss, no eternal suffering. Nothing at all.

    Live your life and don’t try to use it to buy some magic beans. Don’t be a sap and go for a prize you are promised to get after you die. Thats just crazy.

  355. Suck it up Savage. We get it already. You’re gay. Stop identifying yourself by your “uniqueness” and just give us your perspective on the world. That is your job, and you used to do a good job at that. The “boo-hoo” feel sorry for me because I’m different has expired. Own your humanity. We no longer give a shit about the “gay experience”…we only care about the “human experience”. Keep on keepin’ on bro…but lay off of us that are straight.

  356. There is a huge difference between a “Gay” marriage and a so called atheist marriage or divorce and remarriage. Being Gay has nothing at all to do religion or lack thereof. So by comparing the two, is like comparing apples to horses Not at all alike. I am sorry but I am against Gay marriages because I think being Gay is wrong. If you think that makes me a homophobic, then I can certainly call you a hetero-phobic for the same reasons. So as the 2nd line in the commentary says, same to you!

  357. Hi Dan,
    From across the pond, thank you so much for this.
    I work in Mental Health, and as such, with people who are suicidal, LGBT or otherwise.
    When will people learn that the sparking factor is often depression/how we treat our fellow man which causes a tragedy?
    #130 states “it was his choice”.
    Yes it was. Suicide is a choice.
    What folk need to understand is that those who are suicidal feel that ending their life is their only choice.
    We are lucky to have big hate crime laws over here (not sure what you have in the US), but as a previous poster has said “We are winning”.
    Keep up the good work.
    We will beat the bigots!
    XX

  358. Hi Dan,
    From across the pond.
    Thank you so much for this.
    When are people gonna understand that how we treat our fellow man/depression leads to such tragedy?
    I work in mental health, and as such, with people who are suicidal, LGBT or otherwise.
    #130 says suicide is a choice. Yes it is.
    But as already pointed out, those who feel this way, feel they have no other choice.
    We are lucky, we have big hate crime laws over here (not sure what you have in the US)
    Make no mistake, this preaching is hate crime.
    To agree with a previous poster- “We are winning”.
    Not just in the USA, but Europe too.
    Keep it up!
    Suz xx

  360. I have given some thought to both sides of the homosexual vs. heterosexual debate, and have always felt that it is a question of sexual perversion – but not in the sense that most might think. For me, I see nothing wrong with a monogamous, homosexual relationship. My thought is… if two people of the same sex are working to build a life together – awesome! The same goes for the hetero relationships. I think the real issue is the sexual context, and my experience has been that most gays seem to be about multiple sexual partners, and vulgar talk and behavior. Though most lesbians I’ve met seem to be about monogamous relationships, and most hetero folks seem to be about monogamous relationships as well. And though there are certainly a lot of hetero folks who are about multiple sexual partners, and vulgar talk and behavior, there seems to be more sexual promiscuity among gays than with lesbians and heteros – admitting that I could have a mistaken perception. Even still, what two consenting adults do with their sexuality is their business. I have homosexual friends and family members who are awesome human beings and are just trying to make it through this life the best they can – like my hetero friends and family. I guess I’d like to make the point that not all homosexuals are “Bad” and not all heterosexuals are “Good”. Speaking only for myself, I think the real issue is about content of character – not sexual preference. In much the same way that not everyone of a certain race or religion is “bad” – not everyone who is homosexual is inherently “bad”. So, for me, the real issue isn’t about sexual preference, but rather the context in which you exercise your sexuality – genuine love vs. sexual perversion. And there’s not even an issue there if you are consenting adults. As to whether the creator of the universe is actually against same sex unions, I have always thought it was humorous that there are certain species, like frogs, that will spontaneously change gender if there aren’t enough of the opposite gender in the environment. From this, I take it the creator is Ok with playing loosely with sexual orientation to promote life. And for humans, there are more important things in life than procreation – if that were not true, priests would be allowed to marry. Think about it! Love and peace to you all.

  361. I have given some thought to both sides of the homosexual vs. heterosexual debate, and have always felt that it is a question of sexual perversion – but not in the sense that most might think. For me, I see nothing wrong with a monogamous, homosexual relationship. My thought is… if two people of the same sex are working to build a life together – awesome! The same goes for the hetero relationships. I think the real issue is the sexual context, and my experience has been that most gays seem to be about multiple sexual partners, and vulgar talk and behavior. Though most lesbians I’ve met seem to be about monogamous relationships, and most hetero folks seem to be about monogamous relationships as well. And though there are certainly a lot of hetero folks who are about multiple sexual partners, and vulgar talk and behavior, there seems to be more sexual promiscuity among gays than with lesbians and heteros – admitting that I could have a mistaken perception. Even still, what two consenting adults do with their sexuality is their business. I have homosexual friends and family members who are awesome human beings and are just trying to make it through this life the best they can – like my hetero friends and family. I guess I’d like to make the point that not all homosexuals are “Bad” and not all heterosexuals are “Good”. Speaking only for myself, I think the real issue is about content of character – not sexual preference. In much the same way that not everyone of a certain race or religion is “bad” – not everyone who is homosexual is inherently “bad”. So, for me, the real issue isn’t about sexual preference, but rather the context in which you exercise your sexuality – genuine love vs. sexual perversion. And there’s not even an issue there if you are consenting adults. As to whether the creator of the universe is actually against same sex unions, I have always thought it was humorous that there are certain species, like frogs, that will spontaneously change gender if there aren’t enough of the opposite gender in the environment. From this, I take it the creator is Ok with playing loosely with sexual orientation to promote life. And for humans, there are more important things in life than procreation – if that were not true, priests would be allowed to marry. Think about it! Love and peace to you all.

  362. Sad that you condemn others simply for believing something different from your own viewpoint. I believe that gays deserve equal rights under the law, but I also believe that marriage is between a man and a woman. Just as I believe all animals are awesome, but the term “bird” only applies to animals with feathers. Simple logic.

    In your first few paragraphs, you argue that Christians aren’t “attacking” atheist marriage, or interfaith marriage, but guess what, homosexuality isn’t a religion. Wake up. Just because someone doesn’t agree with you on your lifestyle choices doesn’t give you the right to vilify them and call them hate-mongers. Again, sad that that’s the best you can resort to when someone disagrees with you.

  363. This post, and the subsequent array of responding comments, for me serves to highlight the truth of an observation by the philosopher Eric Hoffer:

    “I doubt if the oppressed ever fight for freedom. They fight for pride and for power — power to oppress others. The oppressed want above all to imitate their oppressors; they want to retaliate.”

    The thirst for vengeance runs as a disturbing undercurrent to this discussion. It is staggering enough to attempt to envision the type of intellect that can decry the bigoted condemnation of gays while simultaneously condemning christians with bigoted invective. It has been observed that there is no imperative forcing one to respect another’s religious faith. True enough. But one might also observe that there is no imperative forcing one to respect another’s sexual orientation.

    It is estimated that some 76% of Americans identify themselves as christians. It seems monumentally stupid to insult the handful who have come here to assert their agreement with the basic premise of the author’s post – i.e., that the “dehumanizing bigotries that fall from lips of “faithful Christians,” and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays” are harmful, ignorant, and backwards. I am not quite convinced that greeting those from faiths that accept all people and assert their committal to GLBT equality with dehumanizing bigotry of your own is entirely a productive endeavor. Of course, if your objective is not social harmony and equality for all people, but to ‘win’, then of course, by all means, tear them apart like a pack of ravenous dogs.

    In the meantime, let us ignore completely the actual root of the problem – the prevalence of bullying and lack of respect for others that tends to run virulently among our children – a problem that results in tragedy for gay children and straight children alike. It is said that hatred and bigotry are learned qualities. I wonder what lessons are being learned from the author’s post and the subsequent replies?

  364. Wow…That was intense.
    Umm, both sides are right. The guy writing that letter is not an asshole. Given that the only thing he said about gay people was that he didn’t support gay marriage, you made a lot of assumptions Dan. The fact is, different Christians believe different things, because it’s not a perfect science, or some cult-like devotion where we all listen to whatever the Pope or Fred Phelps has to say. We all have our own opinions, interpretations, and ideas, and as long as those ideas don’t harm anyone, they’re okay. Now, not supporting gay marriage is doing harm to someone, so I can’t agree with that statement. But who knows what he tells his children? The fact is, a lot of Christians I know think that a homosexual could go to heaven as well, and is just as worthy in the eyes of the Lord as anyone else. Because like the writer said, we’re all imperfect, and no sin is any worse than the other. Gay people don’t like being told what they do is a sin, and I don’t blame them, but most choices we as people make are sins. However, as long as you want to be forgiven by God, it doesn’t matter whether or not you continue to sin. The biggest argument against homosexual Christians is that they could very well keep being gay and “sinning” while also repenting. However, regular Christians do this too, so…What’s the problem? It’s a touchy area, and it’s not perfect, but there’s no proof that this guy goes around saying things to his kids that you implied he did. And if his kids every verbally or physically attacked a gay kid, it sounds like he would reprimand them and tell them that Jesus said to love sinners, not condemn them. So your comments, Dan, are a little unjustified and presumptuous, because you don’t know what exactly he believes, you just made a dozen assumptions based on a couple of lines in his letter.

    At the same time, you are right in not apologizing. Because, in the end, there are Christians who don’t follow that doctrine. I personally don’t consider them Christians, but they fly themselves under the banner of Christianity and the Bible, and so Christians they are. They work against homosexuals in every way and refuse to allow them acceptance into society. And yes, a homosexual suicide is exactly what they want. It’s wrong and disgusting, and it makes me wish that these people would read the Bible once in a while. It’s painful to watch, and you’re right Dan, those people are terrible and deserve to be stopped. You shouldn’t have to apologize at your anger towards those Christians, although your generalizations can offend and bother other Christians who may believe differently than the ones you attack in these letters. While I don’t know if the person who wrote this letter to you honestly does the things you accuse Christians of or not, making assumptions is bad. The only apology he deserves, however, is for the assumption you made. You need not apologize for your anger at the kinds of Christians who cause these terrible events to happen, because I am angry at them too, and by reading the letter above, I think the Christian who wrote to you may have been the same way.

    tl;dr: Some Christians are good, some Christians are bad, be angry at the ones that are bad, don’t assume all Christians are.

  365. According to fundamentalist theology, all sin is equal in the eyes of God.. being gay is no worse than lying, or gossip, or theft. Churches are, by definition, filled with sinners — it’s the essence of Christian belief. But the Church spends FAR more time speaking out against gays than it does all the other types of sin, despite its theology preaching that God doesn’t draw distinctions, nor does God recognize gradients of sin. God is boolean — you are either saved or your burn in hell, period, and Dante’s political satire notwithstanding, you will all burn together when you do. (Tom Lehrer FTW!) This is why it’s logical and justified to blame the church for their homophobia, because they are NOT preaching against sin in general — they are singling out one sin as particularly worthy of condemnation, and in so doing, are violating their own espoused faith in the name of indulging their bigotry and fear.

    I believe in freedom of speech as an absolute right. The religious right should be allowed to preach their hate.. and all sane people should be allowed to stand up and call them the narrow-minded, hate-filled, bigots that they are. Christians — if you do not like being tarred with this brush, stand up to your preachers and your fellow church-goers. Remind them that there are no gradients of sin and that if they act to judge one sin as worse than another, they are committing the sin of pride, the sin of believing themselves more fit to judge than God himself.

  366. I’m sorry, but I have to speak up here. I’m a non-denominational Christian who fully supports gay rights and LGBT legislation for legalized marriage, and hearing Dan say that the recent flood of teen suicides is the fault of the evangelical right is GROSSLY misleading.

    My feelings are not hurt. I don’t get my feelings hurt by words that someone has written online. Words from someone whom I will likely never meet in my lifetime. Rather, what upsets me, Dan, is that you are not helping the situation by redirecting the hatred towards another group. You are only adding to the problem.

    You’re speaking out against prejudiced hatred towards gays, and you counter it how? By spreading prejudiced hatred towards evangelical Christians. The person who wrote in was only expressing that not every Christian in the world shares the same viewpoint that “gays are evil,” nor do they teach their children to believe such hateful things. But you would have the world believe otherwise, holding Christians accountable as the ones responsible for these kids’ suicides.

    They weren’t trying to sway the focal point to their hurt feelings. They were trying to point out that the original author was acting out in borderline hypocritical behavior by blindly projecting the same hatred towards another generalized group. How do you respond? “F**k your feelings.” Wow. Way to stick to your guns, Dan.

    Christians were not the ones who tormented these kids in their daily lives. The bullies in their schools were not hurling Bibles at them and calling them “sinful heathens.” Children bully each other for any superficial reasons, be it race, gender, possessions, hobbies, interests, or ANY skin-deep excuse they can find. It is NOT because the bullies are being taught to be intolerant of homosexuals. If that were the case, then it would mean that ONLY GAY KIDS are committing suicide. Unfortunately the world is not that clear-cut, and straight kids are having just as many problems with bullying as the rest, seeing as how not every teen suicide in the past month was committed by a gay child.

    I’m so goddamn sick of people trying to produce scapegoats for the blame and use it as a way to attack faith, as if it is the root of all horrible behavior in the world. Christianity had NOTHING to do with these kids being harassed and tormented to the point of suicide. Bullying is a horrible disease on the childhood norm that needs to be stamped out in any way possible, and trying to claim that the church has blood on its hands is NOT the way to get kids to learn to be compassionate of their fellow students. You don’t counter hatred with more hatred. Dan Savage, you’re only contributing to the problem when you write pieces like this.

    Reading this article seriously makes me worry about how bullying will ever be eliminated. Bullying should NEVER be accepted as “part of childhood.” Parents and teachers alike have been too quick to write off complaints as “kids being kids,” when they should be taking these things seriously since they can cause severe physical and emotional damage to the victims. People like you are perpetuating the epidemic by giving kids another excuse to harass their fellow peers.

  367. I’m sorry, but I have to speak up here. I’m a non-denominational Christian who fully supports gay rights and LGBT legislation for legalized marriage, and hearing Dan say that the recent flood of teen suicides is the fault of the evangelical right is GROSSLY misleading.

    Let me clarify one important fact here: my feelings are not hurt. I don’t get my feelings hurt by words that someone has written online. Words from someone whom I will likely never meet in my lifetime. Rather, what upsets me, Dan, is that you are not helping the situation by redirecting the hatred towards another group. You are only adding to the problem.

    You’re speaking out against prejudiced hatred towards gays, and you counter it how? By spreading prejudiced hatred towards evangelical Christians. The person who wrote in was only expressing that not every Christian in the world shares the same viewpoint that “gays are evil,” nor do they teach their children to believe such hateful things. But you would have the world believe otherwise, holding Christians accountable as the ones responsible for these kids’ suicides.

    They weren’t trying to sway the focal point to their hurt feelings. They were trying to point out that the original author was acting out in borderline hypocritical behavior by blindly projecting the same hatred towards another generalized group. How do you respond? “F**k your feelings.” Wow. Way to stick to your guns, Dan.

    Christians were not the ones who tormented these kids in their daily lives. The bullies in their schools were not hurling Bibles at them and calling them “sinful heathens.” Children bully each other for any superficial reasons, be it race, gender, possessions, hobbies, interests, or ANY skin-deep excuse they can find. It is NOT because the bullies are being taught to be intolerant of homosexuals. If that were the case, then it would mean that ONLY GAY KIDS are committing suicide. Unfortunately the world is not that clear-cut, and straight kids are having just as many problems with bullying as the rest, seeing as how not every teen suicide in the past month was committed by a gay child.

    I’m so goddamn sick of people trying to produce scapegoats for the blame and use it as a way to attack faith, as if it is the root of all horrible behavior in the world. Christianity had NOTHING to do with these kids being harassed and tormented to the point of suicide. Bullying is a horrible disease on the childhood norm that needs to be stamped out in any way possible, and trying to claim that the church has blood on its hands is NOT the way to get kids to learn to be compassionate of their fellow students. You don’t counter hatred with more hatred. Dan Savage, you’re only contributing to the problem when you write pieces like this.

    Reading this article seriously makes me worry about how bullying will ever be eliminated. Bullying should NEVER be accepted as “part of childhood.” Parents and teachers alike have been too quick to write off complaints as “kids being kids,” when they should be taking these things seriously since they can cause severe physical and emotional damage to the victims. People like you are perpetuating the epidemic by giving kids another excuse to harass their fellow peers.

  368. Dan-

    I have to say that I am totally in awe of you at this moment. Having always been around the gay community, it was never a second thought to be supportive and loving to all my friends. I have marched in parades and been the maid of honor in a gay wedding. And I did so with pride!

    It’s hard enough to find love these days without tossing a gender stamp on it. Besides, the God I believe in doesn’t make mistakes. He created us all and loves us all. The bible is nothing short of man’s view of what God meant when he tilted his head to the right… or left for that matter.

    All I can say is HERE! HERE! Very well written.

  369. Dan-

    I have to say that I am totally in awe of you at this moment. Having always been around the gay community, it was never a second thought to be supportive and loving to all my friends. I have marched in parades and been the maid of honor in a gay wedding. And I did so with pride!

    It’s hard enough to find love these days without tossing a gender stamp on it. Besides, the God I believe in doesn’t make mistakes. He created us all and loves us all. The bible is nothing short of man’s view of what God meant when he tilted his head to the right… or left for that matter.

    All I can say is HERE! HERE! Very well written.

  374. How many “Christians” bother to pay attention to Matthew 25:40

    And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done [it] unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done [it] unto me.

    That parable is couched in verses mentioning acts of love and charity, but people forget it also applies to acts of hatred and malice.

  375. Wow. You comletely missed the point there.

    As another Christian (who does happen to support gay marriage), I can tell you that in years of attending church, I have NEVER seen or heard the pulpit used to spew hatred, or even to discuss whether gay marriages should occur (except once, when a visiting priest wished it were possible).

    The woman’s point is that by hating all Christians for gay-bashing, you’re Christian-bashing, Dan. And while Christian-bashing isn’t causing as many children to commit suicide, it’s making America a worse place for all children to the erosion of morals and responsibility and self-hatred that it’s causing in America (but to explain all that, I’d need a book. Or you could go read the “5000 year leap”).

    In fact, I’ve never seen you respond to something in such an ultra right-wing, I’m-going-to-ignore-the-point-and-just-espouse-my-own-opinion, conservative talk show host way. I had to check and see if you had gotten Rush Limbaugh to co-write that for you it was so typical of him.

  376. @ 6sigmaAmerican, you are correct!

    BTW, people take themselves WAY too seriously.
    Suicide is what happens when people lose their sense of humor. Just like Hitler.

  377. We live in one fucking messed up world. I for one am thankful to be the raging homosexual that I am. It allowed me to learn early on that while many things can go up an ass…MY OWN HEAD IS NOT ONE OF THEM.

  378. I actually think this guy is assuming the worst of any person that does not believe in gay marriage. I was raised in a small town Catholic family with two parents that do not believe in gay marriage. I have never in my life even had the impression that being gay is a bad thing in fact have an uncle that is gay and is completely excepted in my family. For my family (and really they are not the only ones) they are just having a hard time getting over what they believe that marriage is between a man and a women. I would also like to say that I have no issues with gay marriage and think that it will eventually be legal everywhere. My family understands this and there are not any negative feelings toward me about this. What I really learned from my family is that being a good person and making good choices is what matters and that is a true Christian belief. The kids that did this are bullies and nothing else.

  379. Its important to note that bullies effect everyone not just Gays. There are a lot of kids that have killed themselves that were overweight and also had some issues that they could not loose the weight. not only that but Kids are Bullied for…… everything. This is not a new thing its just now being brought to light. Unfortunately these kids did not have a National TV personality like Ellen to bring their sad end to the air and make everyone outraged. I AM AGAINST all bullies ITS not an Exclusive problem that the Gay community has it effects everyone from all walks of life. I was blessed to have a strong family that helped me through getting bullied as a child. but there area many that were not as lucky as i was. I agree with you though this has to STOP on all fronts.
    A true follower of Christ does not hate just as Christ said love your neighbor. We must love all

  380. AMEN! I am thankful every day that when my parents split soon after my third birthday, my father did not fight too hard to gain custody and to raise me in the spirit-killing environment for a Gay kid which Appalachian Pentacostalism would have been. I got just enough shame out of the United Methodist and Episcopal churches of the 1960s and 1970s to inform an adolescence and youth adulthood rife with unwise risk taking as a subconscious and slow form of self-destruction! Props to my father’s second wife for helping him realize why a number of their close childhood friends left the hollow, never to return.

  381. Being a gay man myself, growing up in a small, rural, “red-necky” type town, i do nothing but agree with what you wrote. I’ve dealt with intolerance even to this day with people who just still can’t get over themselves. A man the other day had the audacity to call me a “fag” and then justified it by saying his father was gay, and he can use that word. o_O

    But onto the religious topic. When i first came out (silently) in the 8th grade, my best friend at the time was from a family who was very Christian. We still would hang out and talk, but i eventually got tired of him telling me how he disapproved, or that i was going to hell. When his mother caught word of my recent “gayness”, as she called it, she immediately spread the word like wildfire to all the other families in the town who attended her church, which were quite a few of my good friends families. She had convinced all my friends parents to tell their kids not to hang around me. i therefore ended up being a loner for a little while at the end of my middle school career, thanks to her.

    But, thank god i reached high school, and most of those kids went to the religious magnet school of the area. And now, as i see them still in the same, small town, i laugh and smile at the kind of person i came to be.

  382. Wow, lots of ignorance overnight. Let’s break it down for the waaa-you-hate-Christians crowd. When you (YOU reader, not your religious institution) seek to stop a group from enjoying the rights that you get to enjoy, that makes YOU a bigot. When the group you are bigoted against are homosexuals, you are more specifically considered homophobic, although bigot still works. When you fail to understand and accept that about yourselves you will never 1) seek to change it, or 2) be able to understand how these bigoted beliefs affect your children and society at large. Dan tried to explain. All you heard was You Are Bad. If YOU are not using your religion to hurt another group, why is that what you heard? Hmmmmm, a little unconscious shame perhaps?

    Now to address some individual commenters, why not?

    #348 – Survival is not of the fittest; it’s of the most adaptive (or humans would never have made it, all hairless and vulnerable as we are). I don’t know about any gay lifestyles, but homosexuality is perfectly normal amongst many, many species, including humans. Yes, your ideas are wrong, and need to be updated.

    #356 – Dan never said hetero marriage was wrong. When you call him hetero-phobic it reflects poorly on you (though it was highly amusing in a oh no he didn’t sort of way).

    #362 – your stated beliefs are diametrically opposed. Unless you are very specifically speaking of religious marriage and not civil marriage, you cannot believe in equal rights for gays and also believe marriage is for a man and woman.

    #363 –You claim the LGBT oppressed seeks power to become the oppressors based on comments here that ridicule religion. What a joke. Do you seriously think that if equal marriage became the law of the land today that LGBT people would seek to stop hetero marriage?

    #371 – You’re a late bloomer by a long shot. I knew my sexuality by 6 (now 46). I didn’t know its name or connotations till later.

  383. Wow. Amazingly written. You made a lot of great points that I’ve never thought of, such as the inter-faith marriages and divorce/re-marriage. Strangely enough, it won’t make a dent. I hope at least one person reads this and is swayed.

  384. Shared this on facebook. Hope it helps at least one person to see what is happening. I wish I could do more. I’m doing what I can.

    Thank you Dan for a very well written response.

  385. @382 “NoxiousNan”: I think you missed the point some of us are trying to make here. It’s not the fact that Dan is upset because there are some Christians who are exercising bigotry by targeting homosexuals and spreading the hatred for gays in general. This IS true.

    What ISN’T true is what Dan implied, that the bigotry applies to the Christian faith as a whole, that anyone who is of Christian faith automatically hates gays, and that they are the *only* reason why these kids are being bullied to the point of suicide. Not all Christians are homophobic. When he acts so defensive and insulted at the idea of gays being targeted by Christian prejudice, but then so hypocritically turns around and slams the entire faith as a whole rather than calling out just those members who are guilty of perpetuating the hate, he becomes just as bad as the people he is speaking out against.

    The “waaa-you-hate-Christians” crowd that have responded in these comments are not all people who believe that gays should not have equal rights as everyone else. As I said earlier, I am a born-again non-denominational Christian who fully supports LGBT rights and feels they deserve to be just as happy and blessed as any other human being on this earth. I’m of the “forgive and love everyone because we’re all on the same level” school of Christianity. Everyone sins. Big deal. According to the Bible, no one sin is worse than another. If our sins really DID build up like a huge burden on our shoulders, what the hell was the whole “Jesus dying on the cross” thing about? Besides, it also says homosexuality is just as bad a “category of sin” as a woman wearing men’s clothing. It’s been blown out of proportion by people who don’t understand the word of their own God, and THAT is what needs to be spoken out against.

    Dan should refine his anger just a little bit before it comes back to bite him in the ass. He’s justifiably upset by the bigotry present in parts of today’s churches. Where he misses the mark is when he decides to badmouth the religion as a whole. Do not brand us all as hateful when only the loudmouthed ones fit the bill.

  386. why worry about gay suicide rate, hiv and aids is at an all time high why because society is accepting of a filthy lifestyle this is proof that when you live in sin you will die some just more quickly that others but by their own hand regardless

  387. @ 360 – As it’s been proven by study after study, a great majority of heterosexuals cheat on their spouse. It seriously appear to be part of nature, and monogamy to be a social construct (as a concept, it appeared at the same time as private property, and precisely in order to preserve it – if a woman only sleeps with one man, obviously the children are the man’s and should inherit his property). So you have no point whatsoever.

    Many people value monogamy, but that is a personal value, and basing your judgment of good and bad on that personal value makes you just another bigot. And like almost all bigots, you’re in denial about it.

  388. Kudos Dan, just f’n Kudos, friend.

    As a gay man that was physically, verbally, and emotionally abused by CHRISTIAN children day in and day out for close to a decade, I can attest that your retort is 100% accurate. If not for the failing of the noose around my neck, I would have been one of those teens that committed suicide. This issue touches me so closely, I literally tear up at the mere metion of the pain and horror another people have to suffer. I thought growing up in the late 80’s and early 90’s was hard for a gay kid. Apparently, we aren’t as evolved as we think we are here in the 21st Century.

    True that most Christians do not teach their children to hate. But, their words and actions between each other, in fact, do. If gives them carte blanche to attack anyone that their parents deems is unworthy of being the same as them. This doesn’t just apply to those of us in the LGBT, but to other religions, races, and even different sects of the same religion.

    It’s intersting that the RIGHT likes to use the “enviornmental” excuse for us being gay – saying we learned it. But, in the same breathe, they deny they teach their own children anything negative.

    Enough of the hypocracy. Enough of the bullying. Enough of the hate. We will NEVER be unifed as a people as long as we continue to sit back and allow these types of destructive and antiAmerican behaviors exist.

  389. @ 305 – I wouldn’t wish that on anyone either, but honestly, I don’t see anything good about being a protestant (whatever denomination), a muslim, a jew, or any other religion. A clutch is a clutch is a clutch.

  390. Kudos Dan, just f’n Kudos, friend.

    As a gay man that was physically, verbally, and emotionally abused by CHRISTIAN children day in and day out for close to a decade, I can attest that your retort is 100% accurate. If not for the failing of the noose around my neck, I would have been one of those teens that committed suicide. This issue touches me so closely, I literally tear up at the mere metion of the pain and horror another people have to suffer. I thought growing up in the late 80’s and early 90’s was hard for a gay kid. Apparently, we aren’t as evolved as we think we are here in the 21st Century.

    True that most Christians do not teach their children to hate. But, their words and actions between each other, in fact, do. If gives them carte blanche to attack anyone that their parents deems is unworthy of being the same as them. This doesn’t just apply to those of us in the LGBT, but to other religions, races, and even different sects of the same religion.

    It’s intersting that the RIGHT likes to use the “enviornmental” excuse for us being gay – saying we learned it. But, in the same breathe, they deny they teach their own children anything negative.

    Enough of the hypocracy. Enough of the bullying. Enough of the hate. We will NEVER be unifed as a people as long as we continue to sit back and allow these types of destructive and antiAmerican behaviors exist.

  391. Dear Dan,
    You are a bully. Over the years you’ve bullied a lot of people, especially bisexuals and transgender people. I hope you will consider that some kids may be learning from you that it’s okay to treat others as if their lives don’t matter.

    Sincerely,
    Sean Dennison

  392. 342 – What a skillfully ignorant (and, I suspect, intentional) misreading of my comment.

    Inasmuch as the rest of my comment questioned the use of bigoted invective to denounce bigoted invective, one might assume that the quotation – regarding the oppressed wishing to imitate their oppressors – was directed at that unfortunate tendency. However, it quickly became clear from the rest of your response that you would have ample reason to ignore such an obvious conclusion in favor of something which, ludicrous though it is, nevertheless allows you to maintain your favored victim status while simultaneously lashing out with vituperative scorn.

    Speaking for myself, I can only find blind arrogance and naked bigotry behind the assumption that *I* seek to stop any group from enjoying the rights that I get to enjoy – a sweeping, ignorant statement that you have absolutely no way to assert as fact, but which undoubtedly serves its purpose in allowing you to maintain your poisonous bigotry with a clear conscience.

    Further, you go on to assert that “When the group you are bigoted against are homosexuals, you are more specifically considered homophobic, although bigot still works.” Assuming that I am bigoted against anyone for any reason is a scurrilous enough declaration, but your further comment that “When you fail to understand and accept that about yourselves you will never 1) seek to change it, or 2) be able to understand how these bigoted beliefs affect your children and society at large.” is the supercilious height of presumptuousness.

    Perhaps you might take your own scolding to heart before presuming to lecture others? More likely, I suspect that you’ll continue to wallow in the hypocrisy of your own position, further alienating those who would otherwise extend their support for your objectives.

    In my sight, you are no better than the “christian bigots” you claim to despise.

  393. 342 – What a skillfully ignorant (and, I suspect, intentional) misreading of my comment.

    Inasmuch as the rest of my comment questioned the use of bigoted invective to denounce bigoted invective, one might assume that the quotation – regarding the oppressed wishing to imitate their oppressors – was directed at that unfortunate tendency. However, it quickly became clear from the rest of your response that you would have ample reason to ignore such an obvious conclusion in favor of something which, ludicrous though it is, nevertheless allows you to maintain your favored victim status while simultaneously lashing out with vituperative scorn.

    Speaking for myself, I can only find blind arrogance and naked bigotry behind the assumption that *I* seek to stop any group from enjoying the rights that I get to enjoy – a sweeping, ignorant statement that you have absolutely no way to assert as fact, but which undoubtedly serves its purpose in allowing you to maintain your poisonous bigotry with a clear conscience.

    Further, you go on to assert that “When the group you are bigoted against are homosexuals, you are more specifically considered homophobic, although bigot still works.” Assuming that I am bigoted against anyone for any reason is a scurrilous enough declaration, but your further comment that “When you fail to understand and accept that about yourselves you will never 1) seek to change it, or 2) be able to understand how these bigoted beliefs affect your children and society at large.” is the supercilious height of presumptuousness.

    Perhaps you might take your own scolding to heart before presuming to lecture others? More likely, I suspect that you’ll continue to wallow in the hypocrisy of your own position, further alienating those who would otherwise extend their support for your objectives.

    In my sight, you are no better than the “christian bigots” you claim to despise.

  395. @385 – I did not miss the point, JonP, I tried to address it. Please reread Dan’s response. Dan did not imply that the bigotry applies to the Christian faith as a whole. That was my point. He very specifically targets those Christians that use their faith to excorcise their bigotry (“The children of people who see gay people as sinful or damaged or disordered and unworthy of full civil equality-even if those people strive to express their bigotry in the politest possible way…-learn to see gay people as sinful, damaged, disordered and unworthy.”).

    See, if it really were the bigotry of the Christian faith “as a whole”, then the atheists, divorced and interfaith couples would also be targeted…or nobody would be, and Christians would have overcome the inborne and antique bigotries of their faith. Neither is the case though. Homosexuals are specifically targeted as you yourself admit.

    Nope, the real question is why are all the Christians that support equal marriage assuming, despite Dan’s words to the contrary, that they are being thrown into the same grouping as the bigots Dan really is talking about? I personally, think that is psychologically very telling as I implied with my shame comment. He also never said anything about being gay being the only reason children are bullied. Your brain supplied that bit.

    I am aware (and share) Dan’s feelings on religion. And he did mock Christianity itself for being made up (“magical sky friend Jesus”). But he also did exactly what you accuse him of not doing: calling out those members who are guilty…. Those are two very different things, and the subtlety should not be lost on you.

    Homosexuality as sin has not been blown out of proportion by ignorant Christians. It’s been cherry picked by informed individuals with a hateful agenda, to advance their cause, and very successfully I might add, due to the ignorant Christians being used by these bastards. And really, there is no excuse for their ignorance. If they are going to practice the religion and urge others to as well, to the point of legislation, then they should really inform themselves about the religion. It’s not bad, or uncouth to be angry about that. It is a natural and healthy response.

  397. @393 – umm I think you might mean 382 – me, that is.
    I suspect 342 would be unnecessarily hurt by your words. Me, not so much.

    I thank you for noting my skills with wordplay, especially coming from such an eloquent wordsmith as yourself. I did indeed puposely misread your pompous, inappropriately harsh quote. It deserved my “misunderstanding.” Also, you have not answered the question.

    For someone that seemingly holds words and sentences in such high regard, you failed utterly to understand that quotes can change the meanings of things (see above quote usage see, I didn’t really misunderstand at all).

    Guess what? These two phrases have completely different meanings:

    “…dehuminizing bigotries that fall from lips of faithful Christians, and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches faithful Christians drag their kids to on Sundays…”

    “…dehuminizing bigotries that fall from lips of “faithful Christians”, and the lies that spew forth from the pulpit of the churches “faithful Christians” drag their kids to on Sundays…”

    Do I really have to explain the nuance? With the quotations he’s showing that they aren’t really faithful Christians at all. It’s a method used all the time in writing, and if you disagree then please explain why he used quotes.

    My point though, was serious. I’m sick and tired of the false meme that ridiculing religion is akin to ridiculing people. Your religion is not sacred to anyone but you. Now, if Dan advocated never voting for Christians because their religion is bullshit, I’d have a real problem with that. I’d feel the need to advocate against that bigotry despite the fact that I believe the Bible is no more than a really old collection of books.

    You said: “Speaking for myself, I can only find blind arrogance and naked bigotry behind the assumption that *I* seek to stop any group from enjoying the rights that I get to enjoy – a sweeping, ignorant statement that you have absolutely no way to assert as fact, but which undoubtedly serves its purpose in allowing you to maintain your poisonous bigotry with a clear conscience. “

    Don’t you read things before you comment on them? The only way that I’ve accused you of any of that is if you actually engage in it. It’s another language tool. You can use it in all manner of topics: When YOU dance for a living then YOU are are a dancer. When YOU fail to read a comment before responding then YOU look like an idiot.

    I’ll ignore your wallowing in hypocricy and victimhood comments because you obviously don’t even know what I said.

  398. Wow, you got quite an amount of comments here! I love your article/blog entry/whatever. Tell ’em like it is! I’ve had feelings for three men and one woman in my life. It’s always amazing when you realize they like you back and heartbreaking when it doesn’t work out. You non-bisexuals out there, trust me, being in love with a woman and being in love with a man feels exactly the same.

    I respect people’s beliefs, but I don’t see anti-gay marriage as a valid belief, it’s more like a childish type of bullying practiced by grownups in the real world. Who are you to tell people whether they can get married or not? Gay marriage makes your straight marriage less holy? Actually, it’s the other way around. What is marriage worth if you only can marry people with a certain body? You may laugh and think “MY marriage is holy, because I am a man and I’m married to a woman”, but you DO realize that someone could just as well tell you that you’re not allowed to be married to your wife because she’s a brunette or has blue eyes or poor vision? How holy is your marriage if it could easily be broken up because someone finds out your wife has the wrong eye color? Maybe you think it’s a silly example, but it’s just as silly as telling people their wife is the wrong gender.

  399. From the lips of a straight male Christian to the comments section on your blog…. FUCK YOU IF YOU THINK THIS SHIT AIN’T TRUE! There are FAR too many gay boys being bullied and driven to suicide by society’s fucked up preconception that “the norm” should be the norm, and everybody else should change to be like their concept. I have no gay kids (that I know of), but have two lesbian sisters-in-law, and I believe that the TRAGEDY that is teen suicide should be the focus of everyone, not who these particular kids love or are attracted to. Yes I said I am a Christian and sane at the same time, fuck you if you don’t like me for it. 😉

  400. Thank you Dan.

    My family and I were ostracized from our first church due to my refusal to stop being friends with a gay guy. I don’t consider myself a Christian anymore as I believe more in the God who loves us all, not only the ones who attend church.

    Thank you for this message, and thank you so very much for your “It Gets Better” project. I wish I had that message when I was younger. I’m just glad I never succeeded.

  401. Hey, Dan?
    I totaly understand how you feel.

    SO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
    YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  402. Hey, Dan?
    I totaly understand how you feel.

    SO FUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUCK
    YYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

  403. I grew up in the Mormon Church, in Salt Lake City. While my father sexually molested my brothers and I from infancy on. I left the church, and any faith in a god, at age 14 in hopelessness and despair because when I asked a “hypothetical” question on the matter, I was told that the victim is just as guilty as the perpetrator for ‘letting it happen’. It was explained to me that if the victim allowed it to continue, then the surely must be enjoying it, and secretly wanted it. Which means they go to hell too. You know. Standard ‘Christian’ blame the victim bulls**t. This is to say nothing of my experiences in school. I was not, and am not, gay. But I would hang out with the ‘suspected gays’ in school, if for no other reason than I identified with their plight, and the damage of molestation had made me way too different to fit in most anywhere else. If we were all going to be on the outside looking in, we’d do it together.

    This of course led to persecution of me as being gay. I was hit, kicked, mocked and scorned right along with them, because hey, their parents felt the same way. When confronted, the excuse was always: “Well my parents say…” or “The Bishop says…” They had no reasons of their own. Just those given to them, which they faithfully regurgitated whenever the opportunity arose. What’s really funny, is that in later years, returned Mormon missionaries coming out as gay after their stint, or being ‘caught’ at it during, were in higher numbers than from any other single group or ethnicity I came across and discussed the matter with.

    For the religious bigots, I say this: No god who would preside over the evils you perpetrate against others, and calls it good, deserves his place, or our worship. Period. Oh. And FUCK your feelings. You can dish it out, but you just can’t take it, can you? Cowards.

    ‘Man will never be free, until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest.’
    Denis Diderot

  404. I hope you realize, that while Christians, the people you seem to be bashing here, disapprove of homosexual relations in general, other faiths, such as Islam, disapprove of homosexual relations too… many times lethally.

    Do I force my beliefs (as a Christian) upon other people? Absolutely not. I have made an agreement to live a certain way; many others have not. Therefore, I have a few standards (or rules, if you will) to follow; many others do not.

    You, Mr. Dan Savage, are grossly overgeneralizing Christianity, and as I am sure you are an intelligent person, I am surprised you don’t realize this. Instead of looking at some “misguided” Christians as simply misguided, you apply an incorrect label to the silent majority. You astound me by applying your ethnocentric (liberal) views to a traditionally conservative population, instead of trying to understand why their views perpetuate, and why their value system is different from yours.

  405. It’s amazing to me how many Christians just don’t see the ridiculous irony in their judgmental behavior. NEWSFLASH — You are not Jesus! You can’t judge people! You can’t make wine out of this here bottle of Safeway Refreshe I have on my desk! The logic behind your hate is totally and utterly flawed. I am so sick and tired of hearing “but in the bible it says…” — SAYS WHAT? That gays are bad? Can someone please explain why this line in the bible is like, OMFG!!! —

    “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death.”

    But THESE lines in the bible are all conveniently ignored and/or A-OK:

    “If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.”

    “If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death.”

    SERIOUSLY NOW WHAT THE FUCK IS THIS — “If a man beats his male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies as a direct result, he must be punished, but he is not to be punished if the slave gets up after a day or two, since the slave is his property.”

    THE SLAVE IS HIS PROPERTY!!! HAHAHA! CUMMON PEOPLE!!!

    Oh wait, wait and this:

    “Before they had gone to bed, all the men from every part of the city of Sodom–both young and old–surrounded the house. They called to Lot, “Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so that we can have sex with them.” Lot went outside to meet them and shut the door behind him and said, “No, my friends. Don’t do this wicked thing. Look, I have two daughters who have never slept with a man. Let me bring them out to you, and you can do what you like with them. But don’t do anything to these men, for they have come under the protection of my roof.”

    HAHA Puhleeze. Sounds like this book was written in the damn Congo if you ask me.

    I was born a Roman Catholic. Thankfully I have now graduated to being a perfectly good human being.

  406. After reading Dan and a bunch of these comments… Good job Dan!

    LR says no gay marriage and then goes on to brag about not being better then anyone else.
    The we read: “I don’t condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour” oops! you just did 274.
    Not seeing the obvious, It’s brain damage, religious brain damage.

    “Islam is worst, why not pick on them?” All religions are different sides of the exact same coin, same mental disorder just a different story. Our constitution is the only thing stopping American Christians from matching Taliban depravity. Look at Texas school books, they are even working at getting rid of the constitutional road block. (Can you imagine the look on all those Mormons faces when the “true” Christian’s start rounding them up)

    Finally… Faith, believing what some man told you.

  407. This is a note I wrote for my friends after the most recent, highly publicized suicide of a gay teen occurred. It is specifically targeted towards my friends from Ghana, because the kind, beautiful people of that amazing country have sadly been fed the most repulsive Christian propaganda since the good ol’ Christians came over to steal their ancestors. Please keep their version of English in mind when you read this. Because Homosexuality is not even a topic for most Ghanaians, I do need to define ‘homophobia’ and the like.
    I m personally as atheist as the day is long, but I know that to speak to Christians, its most effective when done on their terms. I don’t really see this as copping out. If me invoking Christian teachings might put a zygote of an idea of tolerance into the minds of even a few, that’s a lot more than I could have done with my usual “Do you also believe that the sun is pulled across the sky by a horse drawn chariot?” approach.
    Here goes….

    Hello Friends!
    Recently in the United States there have been many young people who have killed themselves after being ridiculed and harmed by others because they are homosexual. This makes me very sad.
    I want to help you see that using the Bible as a means to justify homophobia(not liking homosexuals) is a very un-Christian thing to do. You have misinterpreted or accepted the misinterpretation of a text that was meant to convey love between yourselves and your brothers and sisters here on earth.
    I particularly send this comment to my brothers and sisters in Ghana. We have spoken about this, and I hope that some of the literature I have sent some of you has helped you to see that people want you to believe something that simply isn’t true. Jesus did not have disdain for homosexuals. The people who rewrote the Bible into their own languages were often unclear on certain pronouns, and later, people twisted what was written to suit their own feelings and agendas.
    If your friends fight with you about this, they are not being good Christians. They have hate in their hearts and that is very very sad. You have met me and you know that I am not a bad person. I am not hurting anyone by loving who my heart tells me to love. Please, please consider that I, your friend and Sister, am very lucky to have come from a supportive family and that I had very wonderful friends. There are many people I know who were kicked out of their homes, sent to live on the street, and forced to start over without anyone to turn to because they are homosexual.
    I am asking you from my heart to please open up your minds to the reality that those who condemned homosexuals, and who tell you to do the same, are not followers of the words and goodness of Jesus Christ. They are misguided and I don’t believe that Heaven awaits those who would not love others as themselves.
    I want you to understand that as a homosexual I endure the same horrible treatment as many Black people did in America during and after slavery. I am not able to get married to the Woman I love, just as slaves were not allowed to be married. I, and many of my friends have been spit on, called names, and told that we are monsters who will go to hell. Black Slavery was justified by a Christian minister who misinterpreted the Bible. Can you believe that? Isn’t it sickening and horrible that so many millions of your brothers and sisters were forced to endure the horrors of capture, torture, rape, and slavery because a “Christian” man said it was ok? This is the same thing that has happened with homosexuality. Just as a man who didn’t view Africans as humans said it was ok to humiliate, exploit and kill them, a man who hates homosexuals said that it is ok to treat us as animals. We are not possessed by a bad spirit. Anyone who knows me will agree that I have a good heart and I love everyone as I love myself.
    I hope that you will stand up for me, and for the other people like me. We just want to be treated the same as everyone else. It makes me very very sad that so many people see Christians as hateful, judgmental people because of how they treat homosexuals. Jesus was not hateful, and he did not judge. I ask that you try to do the same, and that you try to share this message with your friends. I have shared the message of your wonderful, kind, beautiful people. I love Ghana and I love all of you so very much. I eagerly anticipate the day that I can return and see all of you again, and I hope that when I do I will find that you have at least considered what I am telling you about this issue. You all taught me so much about forgiveness, positivity, love and family. I thank you very much.
    I love you!
    Ashley

  409. After reading Dan and a bunch of these comments… Good job Dan!

    LR says no gay marriage and then goes on to brag about not being better then anyone else.
    The we read: “I don’t condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour” oops! you just did 274.
    Not seeing the obvious, It’s brain damage, religious brain damage.

    “Islam is worst, why not pick on them?” All religions are different sides of the exact same coin, same mental disorder just a different story. Our constitution is the only thing stopping American Christians from matching Taliban depravity. Look at Texas school books, they are even working at getting rid of the constitutional road block. (Can you imagine the look on all those Mormons faces when the “true” Christian’s start rounding them up)

    Finally… Faith, believing what some man told you.

  410. After reading Dan and a bunch of these comments… Good job Dan!

    LR says no gay marriage and then goes on to brag about not being better then anyone else.
    Then we read: “I don’t condemn others for their indescretions and deviate behaviour” oops! you just did 274.
    Not seeing the obvious, It’s brain damage, religious brain damage.

    “Islam is worst, why not pick on them?” All religions are different sides of the exact same coin, same mental disorder just a different story. Our constitution is the only thing stopping American Christians from matching Taliban depravity. Look at Texas school books, they are even working at getting rid of the constitutional road block. (Can you imagine the look on all those Mormons faces when the “true” Christian’s start rounding them up)

    Finally… Faith, believing what some man told you.

  411. The trouble here is that the extremes on both sides of the issue act as the face for each argument. GLBT see Fred Phelps and his mantra of “God Hates Gays” while Christians see NAMBLA and still listen to ignorant people who say AIDS is a ‘homo disease’ and that gay marriage will ruin the US. Spiteful comments like most of the few hundred listed above do not help. Who is judging who?
    #1, it IS wrong to stereotype large groups of people when such groups represent so many different ideas. Almost no Christians hate gays. Most Christians treat homosexuality just like someone fooling around on their spouse or stealing jeans from Walmart. It has nothing to do with the person, just their actions. Maybe it is just me. And all my Christian buddies. Luckily, I don’t know any gays like the ones who have posted above. The extremes on both sides need to stop spewing hate. It really only shuts people down to thinking and makes things worse.
    #2, What is the real issue here? Is it bullying? Is it the homosexual who is pissed because of perceived second class status? If so, why is the GLBT focusing on Christianity? Gay people have been persecuted for ever. By all kinds of leaders and countries and religions. Why don’t gay people focus on countries where gay people get murdered in the street with support from the government? The truth is bullying anywhere is wrong, horribly wrong. It is terribly sad when someone kills themselves because of feeling isolated, persecuted and less than a worthwhile being. Everything that can be done to stop it should be done. I am just saying to focus on the cause, not find a bunch of people to blame. Blame society, blame ignorance, blame our government, blame whatever. But blame a group that has done more for society than any other group? (Religious hospitals, serving the poor, relief organizations…) Besides claiming the corner on ‘rational’ and ‘scientific’ thought, what have atheists done for the world? Agnostics? Yes, Christianity involves humans and humans can be idiots. Mean and retarded idiots. But most of them are not so. As for second class status, really? The law is the law when it comes to gay marriage and polygamy and underage marriage. It is hard to change the culture of thinking overnight. Gay people have civil unions in some states (not sure of the benefits you get) but my company, UPS, offers health insurance for domestic partners. (The only real legal benefit to marriage anyway.) Wills and power of attorneys take care of most of the rest.) It is coming around. Intelligent conversation will get you further than hate filled one- liners.
    #3, I am a conservative evangelical in a seminary who is studying to be a pastor. I have a gay brother. We are great friends. We talk a lot. My family and I go to his house to eat and hang out with him, his partner and his other gay friends. When we had just one kid, he was on my will to be the guardian of my kid. (Over my other 5 (straight) siblings.) (Now we have 4 and that would be more of a curse than a blessing!) Me and my bro are a lot like my friends and his friends. We get along. We have our differences of opinions but we are brothers first. Why can’t all of us get along?
    The point is we can’t get anywhere throwing hate bombs at each other, criticizing everything we can think of and being close-minded. Bullying is terrible. However, it happens to more people than just gay people. Way too many people commit suicide, and not just gay people. Lets work together to figure something out. Both sides need to shut up the extremes who are not helping at all, or at least block them out.
    We can do this! We need to do this!

  412. I love, love, love(!) reading letters like the one you received! Love it! I love it because people always try to hide behind their own abused rights (“If your message is that we should not judge people based on their sexual preference, how do you justify judging entire groups of people for any other reason (including their faith)?”) as a means to abuse rights other people are denied.

    It’s really great that LR can hide behind constitutional rights they possess as a straight, religious person, but would not have if they were secular and LBGT. Motherfucker. Plus, seriously LR? You have the gall to argue that its improper to argue against a group of people defined by their bigotry (at least in Dan Savage’s use of the, “christian right”) because complaining about bigot assholes is bigotry? What the fuck?

    Look here, I’m going to clarify a couple things for you: people who support constitutional equality regardless of and in spite of their own religious, sexual, whatever background, are not bigots (generally speaking) – this can include people of any age sex or religious denomination. The moment that you believe there are exclusive rights some poeple should not have based on, religious, sexual, ethnic etc background – you ARE in fact a bigot. Case closed.

    Now fuck off your insular, systems-of-offense-and-religion-trump-equality based asshole logic.

    p.s. I also love it when people say preference, or lifestyle choice. We all got to chose, and we chose to let assholes judge and discriminate.

  413. That was very moving and i full heartedly agree. i myself am not gay but most of my friends are and i can totally understand what you are saying. thank you.
    ~chy p.

  414. hey dan, i’m #404, so you probably won’t read this.

    i am a recovering christian and your premise is completely correct. i never was told to run over gay kids with my car, just like i wasn’t ordered to lie in my senior research project in high school with ginned up reaganomics statistics, i just knew that doing both things was a good idea and forwarded the movement in some small fashion.

    “gays are unhygienic” … “just think about what they DO” … “it’s an abomination” … “they’re rabid sex freaks” … “they fuck little kids and would fuck you too if you get too close”…

    these are all the lessons i learned. it took very little critical thought on my part to surmise that the next logical step was to name call and belittle (it didn’t matter if the kid was gay or not). it took little critical thought on my part to determine that if those previous statements were true that AIDS was a good thing and that it took little critical thought on my part to believe that liberals were under some sort of spell of the gays and that the world was doomed because of the increasing acceptance of gross sex.

    the neat thing is that people can change. i changed. i am an ardent supporter not of only equality in civil rights, but also an ardent supporter of complete inclusion of GLBT folks into society. i live in ferndale, MI, the gayest little city in the midwest with a shiny new teen gay community center called Affirmations where all the most fabulous gay kids hang out, feeling free to wear what they want, talk how they want, and kiss who they want. not surprisingly, my change started after i stopped going to church.

    the funniest thing about the whole situation is that my parents, dour christians that they are, are becoming more accepting too. my sister married a black guy this past summer. he’s really cool and it’s given me the opportunity to remind my parents that until Lovey v. Maryland in 1967, my sister wasn’t able to marry her dark skinned boy toy in more states than i have fingers. the wheels haven’t fallen off the hetero-marriage wagon with all the interracial marriage going on, so why think that the wheels will fall off with a little bit of homo marriage?

    clearly, the change is coming too slowly for the victims of bullying and for the gay kids who cower in fear at the thought of having to enter a school locker room before gym class lest they get beat up. for that exact reason, the tone of your critique of christians is spot on. i guess, that stupid bitch didn’t recall the holocaust, the spanish inquisition, or the crusades as examples of the potential of christian behavior.

    please continue speaking out. i will too even though it’s completely embarrassing to repeatedly self-label myself as a former rabid bigot (verbal penance is a small price).

    the video you made with your husband about how it gets better after high school doesn’t jsut relate to gay kids, it relates to ex-homophobes who leave their small towns and discover that there’s a great big gay world out there and that to appreciate gay culture doesn’t spur you to the nearest leather club for some deep gay sex.

  415. That was very moving and i full heartedly agree. i myself am not gay but most of my friends are and i can totally understand what you are saying. thank you

  416. Most of the post on here, pro-homosexual and anti-homosexual alike, make me seriously doubt the capabilities of the human mind. I think there might be God….most days and Jesus is a nice idea. I am a heterosexual but, I don’t care if a homosexual couple wants to get married, have kids, live their own lives for that’s what they want. They don’t want to live my life just their own. If there is a God then it is between them and God what they did in life not them God and everyone else. “The Bible says so” well people get out of the Bible what they want to get out of it. And whether you are gay or straight if you are born in a country you are a full citizen and as such according to the constitution you are allowed the same rights…the forefathers had enough sense to keep church and state seperate. The church governs over worship and believes ONLY OF ITS FOLLOWERS! While the state enforces the mandates set forth in the constitution. For those followers who are unwavering in a belief the Bible says “let he who is without sin cast the first stone” so heed what God commands of you, we are all with sin so only God can judge so stop judging other people. “The right to pursue happiness” should be enforced by the state giving gay couples all the same opportunities to do so as straight couples.

  418. Dan ,

    I cannot thank you enough for this post. The perso who worte this is not the 16 year old who was beaten savagely in the Halls of a northenr BC high school while they shouted that god told them they had the right to beat him … no … That was me. The person in this letter did not have “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live ” ( exodus 22:18) screamed at them when lighter fluid was thrown at them and they held a match book in their hand … No that was me too…. they were not tossed out of their home and beaten horribly by their father when they realized they were gay and he said he was going to beat it out of me …. no … that was me too … so tell me again how your faith doesnt incite hate … as the death toll rises I know denial when I see it…. “I like your Christ … I loathe your Christians … they are not at all like your christ ” – Ghandi

  419. Dan ,

    I cannot thank you enough for this post. The person who wrote this is not the 16 year old who was beaten repeatedly and savagely in the Halls of a northern BC high school while they shouted that god told them they had the right to beat him … no … That was me. The person in this letter did not have “thou shalt not suffer a witch to live ” ( exodus 22:18) screamed at them when lighter fluid was thrown at them and they held a match book in their hand … No that was me too…. they were not tossed out of their home and beaten horribly by their father when they realized they were gay and he said he was going to beat it out of them …. no … that was me too … so tell me again how your faith doesnt incite hate when all of these people claimed to be of your faith!… As the death toll rises I know denial when I see it. And I also know that more wars and deaths have been caused by christians and religeon as a whole than any other issue in the history of man …. as long as there has been 1 true god there has been killing in a massive scale in his name … the Crusades, the 30 years war , The french wars of religion, The list is unending and the numbers unfathomable . so before you “Good Kind Christians” try to play innocent under the guise of your religion teaching “acceptance” and “Forgiveness” perhalps a walk through your own history would be a good start … Remember its you that have the probem with us ( Gays) not us that had the problem with you that started this after all we arent the ones that are beating you to death in Laramie … and we aren’t the ones that are bullying your kids with your bible as our defence …

  420. u know what though? everyone can be hypocritical, esp gay people that hate on bi’, transgendered peeps (like me) and wierdo punks (like me). gay people,. esp gay men can be as closed minded as any religious nutjob! We are what we hate as… the old saying goes and I happen to agree with the letter. Gay men have a serious history of self destruction, just hey look at the gay men bar scene, fucking huge. I am just saying that gays can be full of fucking shit too and this is coming from someone that has been discriminated against in the queer community.

  421. Imagine that…a fag sticking up for fags everywhere. Who cares if a few die…there’s plenty more to go around hahahahaha. At least Dan Savage and other gays are guaranteed to survive a fire in their house…unlike straight people they already have their shit packed. Gay people are awesome…who doesn’t want to take one for the team…even if it is in the behind. Someone has to be batting for the other team…otherwise how would we be able to play baseball. Its so nice to see so many people coming out of their cloets to support their number one hero/heroine…not sure what he is…since he isn’t completely sure either. Way to come out and support harvey…oh wait wrong gay event…my bad.

  422. Joe @ 411 – you protest too much.

    Of course gay people have always been treated like crap by many different countries and classes of people around the world. There are too many people attacking us for too long to fight them all.

    Right here, in this country, in this day and age, though, it is Christian Americans who have brought to bear the greatest amount of condescending rebuke, abuse, and aggression towards gay people. Telling us we shouldn’t have the right to get married or that our relationships are morally equivalent to stealing jeans from Walmart and then saying we have to stop being so mean and work TOGETHER to solve our problems is like kicking someone in the teeth and then telling them that violence doesn’t solve anything.

  424. I am a Christian and I do my best not to judge. Please do not over look those of us with faith and the ability to see people for people. Don’t let hate infect you, it is energy better spent on more productive activities. And no I am not going to end this with “I love you all.” but I do respect you and pray for you. My God give you the strength to live better, and more fulfilling lives than those who judge you.

  425. Let’s face it, asking Christians not to *mention* their opposition to homosexuality is simply unreasonable. The fundamental right of Christians to say that gay relationships are sinful or that gays are going to hell trumps any consequences – even if those consequences are young gay people getting beaten up or being miserable or committing suicide. That is the terrible price we pay for living in a free society where freedom of expression is venerated.

    But Christians: asking us not to mention our opposition to your beliefs is just as unreasonable.

  426. ” I have never in my life know someone who loved the Lord who wished ill will on other people and certainly not death “so that [we] can perpetuate [our own] agenda”.

    The Crusades.
    Abortion clinic bombings.
    Westboro Baptist Church

  428. This doesn’t need any more comments… but Dan! I was blown away by this! You are so right! Your anger and your eloquence are equally critical in these situations.

  429. Nuff said, as Stan Lee used to write. You are absolutely correct, we need to fight this Faith Based Hate resolutely and fiercely. No wonder Jesus wept.

  430. Dan,
    You’re an idiot sometimes. The writer is dead on that you can’t blame an entire group for the actions of another. yes these kids killed themselves. Is that really on any one other than themselves? Where were their parents? Where were their friends? Could it be that these kids were part of a subculture that glorifies and revels in self-pain and suicide? As a treatment counselor for kids like this, I have seen the bullying. I have seen gay kids participate as much as any straight kid. You can’t vilify the religious right for this. These kids did it to themselves rather than seek help. It’s their choice.

  431. If Jesus were to come again. All these extremists would be thrown out of the temple. Jesus taught love. Religion teaches exclusion and therefore hate. Religion has forever been a political tool to control and govern the ignorant masses.
    L.R. and other so called “Christians” are sheeple unwilling to critically think or “follow the Lord” they shrill about.
    When the Pope gives his Prada shoes to the poor beggar that has none and lives like Mother Theresa; when the Billy Graham gives away his millions and walks humbly as Christ did, feeding the poor; when Christians quit telling everyone else how to live and what to think, then Jesus may let them stay in the temple when he returns. Until then, those hypocritical “Christians” are burning like the rest of us.
    Yeehaw!

  432. Oh, SNAP.

    BTW Dan, I was raised Catholic too. I still have a soft spot for Jesus. That dude would NEVER condemn anyone, and I hate that the religious right has pirated what it means to be Christian. You wanna be Christian? Act like Christ. Love one another.

  433. Religion = IGNORANCE
    Religion = DESTRUCTION
    Religion = DEATH
    Religion = CONTROL
    Religion = DARK AGES
    Religion = USELESS CONFLICT

    Religion hasn’t done anything and I mean ANYTHING good for this world. On the contrary, it has thwarted humanity’s social and technological evolution for centuries. And is still doing it.
    Religion has been a CANCER for humanity. A Cancer that has to be removed in order to advance to a new, brighter era.

    Wake up people. There is no God, and there never was. The “strenght” your God had given you is your own. It has always been yours. You are more powerful than you think. Nobody needs a mythic figure and an ancient set of rules to guide their lives. Each and everyone of us is the architect of our own fate.

    Religion has LIED to you. YOU HAVE BEEN MANIPULATED. YOU HAVE BEEN USED. YOU HAVE BEEN LIVING AN AWEFUL LIE. And deep down you know it.

  434. there are more important things to fight about than gay marriage

    there are more tragic events than some college kid who couldn’t hack it

    fucken let gay people do what they want and lets argue about helping the real people who are suffering in the world

  435. there are more important things to fight about than gay marriage

    there are more tragic events than some college kid who couldn’t hack it

    fucken let gay people do what they want and lets argue about helping the real people who are suffering in the world

  436. I’m raising my 11 year old daughter in Boystown and she had no idea that people existed in this world who took issue with men kissing or holding hands, until she heard about Adam Lambert’s performance at the AMA’s. It hit her really hard, she cried when I explained it to her.

    Yes, I did tell her about the “good Christians” and their beliefs. I tried to find words to explain it without generating hatred toward them…. then I got it. I told her they were actually the ones their own Jesus was referring to when he said “forgive them father for they know not what they do”…. because they don’t. You can talk all the common sense in the world, they aren’t going to change their minds. These people really, truly in their hearts believe that they are doing and teaching the right thing… like the lady above, they honestly don’t get it.

    Years ago I had a neighbor… nicest lady you could ever meet, but if you did not go to to her church and follow that book to the word, you are burning in hell… and she actually felt sorry for you if you didn’t. She prayed for me… a lot, lol.

    Essentially, they have been brainwashed. All we can hope for is that as their children grow and are exposed to differing opinions and lifestyles through TV and the internet, that they will have the opportunity their parents didn’t… to think for themselves.

  437. I’m raising my 11 year old daughter in Boystown and she had no idea that people existed in this world who took issue with men kissing or holding hands, until she heard about Adam Lambert’s performance at the AMA’s. It hit her really hard, she cried when I explained it to her.

    Yes, I did tell her about the “good Christians” and their beliefs. I tried to find words to explain it without generating hatred toward them…. then I got it. I told her they were actually the ones their own Jesus was referring to when he said “forgive them father for they know not what they do”…. because they don’t. You can talk all the common sense in the world, they aren’t going to change their minds. These people really, truly in their hearts believe that they are doing and teaching the right thing… like the lady above, they honestly don’t get it.

    Years ago I had a neighbor… nicest lady you could ever meet, but if you did not go to to her church and follow that book to the word, you are burning in hell… and she actually felt sorry for you if you didn’t. She prayed for me… a lot, lol.

    Essentially, they have been brainwashed. All we can hope for is that as their children grow and are exposed to differing opinions and lifestyles through TV and the internet, that they will have the opportunity their parents didn’t… to think for themselves.

  438. Haha, sorry for the double post, I just got an account so my comment wouldn’t be hidden!

    I’m raising my 11 year old daughter in Boystown and she had no idea that people existed in this world who took issue with men kissing or holding hands, until she heard about Adam Lambert’s performance at the AMA’s. It hit her really hard, she cried when I explained it to her.

    Yes, I did tell her about the “good Christians” and their beliefs. I tried to find words to explain it without generating hatred toward them…. then I got it. I told her they were actually the ones their own Jesus was referring to when he said “forgive them father for they know not what they do”…. because they don’t. You can talk all the common sense in the world, they aren’t going to change their minds. These people really, truly in their hearts believe that they are doing and teaching the right thing… like the lady above, they honestly don’t get it.

    Years ago I had a neighbor… nicest lady you could ever meet, but if you did not go to to her church and follow that book to the word, you are burning in hell… and she actually felt sorry for you if you didn’t. She prayed for me… a lot, lol.

    Essentially, they have been brainwashed. All we can hope for is that as their children grow and are exposed to differing opinions and lifestyles through TV and the internet, that they will have the opportunity their parents didn’t… to think for themselves.

  440. Spouting off is less effective than articulating your thoughts with forthought and consideration for your rights to do so as a human being arguing with other human beings. Despite the fact that I agree with you, you come off as an angry teenager who’s comments will be remembered more for their venom than actual substance. Yes it sparks debate but that debate is there with or without you. This is the internet so I don’t expect much less since literally any single person with a computer and an ISP could “publish” what you just did. You put thought into it, I don’t deny that, but your thoughts are simply that: simple.

    Also, you didn’t really read the letter did you because you didn’t really acknowledge her point. You heard someone disagreed with you and reiteratted your interview point but with more sting.

    All I can say is that this post said a lot more about you than it did the issue at hand. There’s a ton of ego in this and not particulaily memorable for the cause you’re “fighting”

  441. Spouting off is less effective than articulating your thoughts with forthought and consideration for your rights to do so as a human being arguing with other human beings. Despite the fact that I agree with you, you come off as an angry teenager who’s comments will be remembered more for their venom than actual substance. Yes it sparks debate but that debate is there with or without you. This is the internet so I don’t expect much less since literally any single person with a computer and an ISP could “publish” what you just did. You put thought into it, I don’t deny that, but your thoughts are simply that: simple.

    Also, you didn’t really read the letter did you because you didn’t really acknowledge her point. You heard someone disagreed with you and reiteratted your interview point but with more sting.

    All I can say is that this post said a lot more about you than it did the issue at hand. There’s a ton of ego in this and not particulaily memorable for the cause you’re “fighting”

  442. The part about suicidal dispair really got to me. I don’t want to be a part of ANYTHING that would cause a child to consider ending their life. No god worthy of being called god would require this. Shame on all of us. We must do better. I pledge to have a talk with my teenagers this very weekend about love and acceptance and compassion.

  444. I love this article. I consider myself a follower of the message of Jesus, but I cannot relate to the church. Christ urged people to be loving and tolerant, spending his time with prostitutes and others that society had ruled sinful and unclean. What these “Christians” need to do is get into that love and acceptance that Christ had for all beings. I love you, I love the gay community, and I love what you’re doing.

  445. Is your answer to this problem that gays aren’t accepted in society? Hmm. Ellen is VERY successful. Will and Grace was a hit show. Gay people have recurring roles on long-running shows like Sex and the City. I can’t think of any prime time TV show that would allow the main characters to believe in Jesus (without just poking fun at them). If you don’t think gays are considered mainstream now, you’ll never be satisfied.

  446. @445

    A handful of gay celebrities and TV characters =/= full equality for ALL US citizens

    Aww, all butthurt over lack of religious representation in TV? Don’t blame the media; blame the fact that most of us < 40 find the US Evangelical Theocracy — and EVERYTHING it represents — far too unpalatable for our Sex & The City and Will and Grace.

    Here’s the difference: you as a straight (I assume) can marry the person of your choice and enjoy over 1,000 federal protections. Cynthia Nixon, or Miranda from Sex & The City, cannot.

    This is not a TV show. This is real life. And these are REAL PEOPLE who want fucking REAL EQUALITY under US law. You know, the kind that was supposed to be GUARANTEED by the federal Constitution.

  447. “We cannot believe that we are better or more worthy than other people.” and yet, LR clearly DOES believe that s/he is better or more worthy than gay people. more worthy of the right to get married. hypocrite much?

  448. That’s such a good point. When I was younger, my mom said “Don’t smoke pot until you’re in college.” And all I got out of that, as a teenager, was YAY it’s okay to smoke pot. And I guess the point of that is, Kids don’t really learn actions from parents. They just learn what’s good and what’s bad. That’s what we take away from our parent and grow up. Needless, to say, I felt more inclined than ever to smoke pot. And did so all through high school. Which shows additionally, that kids are inclined to adopt those expressions of wrong or right and project them ten-fold. A simple, “homosexuality is wrong” or “ew” at a gay couple on television could lead to a cafeteria resounding “GROSS” at some gay kid eating his tapioca pudding.

  449. I think this was a well written and respectful debate. I feel spiritual yet I also see that the number one cause of death threwout history is organized religion. All religions preech love thy neighbor yet the (my god is right and therefor you must die) wars across history show otherwise. How many people muse die for; Alah. God. Christ…

  450. I agree with you that when children’s lives hang in the balance, personal feelings are not necessarily important. However, I do think it’s important for some kids, especially those who believe in their faith, to know that there are Christians out there who do not denounce homosexuality as a sin. Not for nothing, the Episcopal Church selected an out gay man as their Archbishop. The Believe Out Loud Project (http://www.believeoutloud.com/) does exist and is supported.

    While I join in denouncing the demagogues and fools among Christians (and Jews, and Muslims – because hey, it wasn’t a Priest that wrote the piece Paladino read last weekend), I think it’s equally dangerous to our youth to make them believe that all Christians denounce them for who they are. Kids who believe in God should know that there are places for them. And I wish that more people would talk about that, too. Instead of just painting it all with the “religion is bad” brush.

  451. I didn’t know this was a comedy routine written on paper. How about Fuck your feelings.. Homosexuality is an abomination of the Lord…but, the Lord does not, and I repeat, does not hate anyone on earth for we are all his children.. A marriage was brought about as two people trying to start a family, naturally. You know the old-fashioned way, earn it.. have fun with it, and most of all sperminate it….(I made it up ok)… Don’t blame God or Jesus (the savior of man) for the actions af people (sinners which we all are).. For each human is not perfect. if you think you are, well you are mistaken.

    Just because someone doesn’t believe the way you do does NOT mean they are phobic, racist, or hateful.. It just means they are not you.. we are all made the same only physically, and some of us are not…

    So, in your essay Evil always wins.. you said it yourself… Religion is not the question or at fault, but like I stated earlier, man is..

    so, go fuck your feelings. I am with her.. I don’t want it near me, but when it is, i will treat that particular person like I want to be treated.. like a human first,, as long as they are boastful, I won’t tell them to shut up
    A Real Texan

  453. Relibitards being bullied?! You don’t say!

    How many innocent people were killed during the Crusades? How about the inquisition.

    Take your imaginary deity and stick it up your ass.

    There is no god. Get over it.

  454. @ 28: Part of the problem lies in that some people (like Tom Prichard for example) are so ideologically confused that they truly do believe the vulnerable minorities they discriminate against are second class, and therefore see no problem in abusing them, so the truth really DOESN’T hurt them, unfortunately.

    @30: The “re-defining a word” argument falls flat when we consider that the original definition of “marriage” was created by and for straight people. The constitution was created to protect vulnerable minorities from the tyranny of the majority. By that reasoning, a “redefinition” of marriage is imperative. Secondly, the only reasons people who are against gay marriage cite are related to religion and the Bible–seperation of church and state should throw all of them out the window. Lastly, Dan’s letter wasn’t even about marriage–people are dying because of the hatred the majority of self-proclaimed “Christians” exude. That puts them in the wrong outright, in my book, as long as it continues to be a threat in society.

    Note: I refuse to call bigots (again, like Tom Prichard) who call themselves Christians Christian. A true follower of Jesus and God is full of love for their fellow man, not hate. I am not religiously affiliated because I believe in being a good person because it’s the right thing to do, not because of a system of rewards (ie eternal life after death in heaven), but if you’ve read the Bible at all, you should know the overwhelming message is love and care for others–not hate.

  455. I think what you said was amazing that more people should open there eyes and see that we are who we are Its the 20 first century and should be more accpeted then hated. Im with some how is a part of the lgtb commuinty and everyday we go through shit and have to deal with it, It breaks my heart to know that people these days are so hateful and bigots those’s who are not willing to accpect others around them.
    D

  456. what about the straight people killing themselves too. Gays think the world owes them everything because they are different. Get the fuck over yourselves. Practice what you preach!

  457. From my perspective, Dan Savage is the one who is perpetuating hate here. He’s directing hate towards anyone’s faith or spiritual views that don’t agree with his own. Who are you to insinuate that a person of faith, who is taught to love all unconditionally should be to blame for the very unfortunate suicide of gay teenagers. Who is Dan Savage going to blame for all the teens that took their own lives after being bullied for being overweight, loner’s or because other’s were jealous of them? How is your hateful and ignorant perspective with regards to a person of faith going to create a solution to the problem of teen bullying and suicide. Loving and encouraging all kids to become the best they can be is the answer. Blaming the spiritual belief system of anyone that doesn’t agree with your viewpoint is not.

  458. I actually see both sides of this one. The original letter writer is concerned that the actions of Christians who oppose gay rights should be held against all Christians. There are loving and supportive Christians and Christian churches who would willingly have helped those gay teens and accepted them regardless of their orientation. It is not fair to demonize all Christians based on the anti-gay agendas of the churches who condem homosexuals. BUT children are dying, and not opposing the hate that creates the situation that leads to these deaths is a form of tacit consent. Even though many parents do not teach their children to attack and demoralize gay teens, by letting this continue we all become enablers.

  459. Kudos to you Dan Savage, I’m always thrilled to hear your erudite, coherent, and moving thoughts on NPR and now, thanks to friends on FaceBook know how to find you on the internet. I am a 67 year old straight woman who has never understood any kind of bigotry and embraced the words to the song from “South Pacific” back in my childhood. Perhaps I will find a local support group for teens to assist in the conservative area where I am now living.

  460. Thank you Dan. The stuff the Religious Right pulls galls me beyond belief, particularly the hypocrisy of bashing LGBT people & then critiquing the LGBT community over factors they played a big part in making worse, it’s that detestable blame the victim mentality at work. But it is even worse that they assume it is their right to dictate what should be acceptable, and that they call anyone who doesn’t follow that evil. They go after everyone that isn’t Christian, or Jewish, straight and conservative. Case in point: I’m bi, Transgender, and Wiccan. The Wiccan element alone attracts serious fire from them, before Islam became the “Evil” religion du jour it was Wicca, and we still get harassed because we aren’t Christian. I got a lovely note a few weeks back saying I was going to hell for that reason & it outlined why all the other world religions -except Christianity & Judaism- are evil. They want to edge out every group that doesn’t fall in line.
    That being said I appreciate your good sense in limiting your arguments, you take the care to specify the Religious Right. You don’t go off on Religion in general, as happens so often when the Religious Right is brought up. I think that shows good sense. I may be assuming & ascribing things incorrectly here, but I think you realize that there are plenty of religious people out there who use their faith to support LGBT teens and LGBT adults, and that there are plenty of LGBT people who have deep & supportive faith beliefs. And I’m not just talking about those Christian denominations that have decided to be supportive in the last decade, I mean everyone, the people like myself who are Wiccan or Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Baha’i or Pagan or any other faith outside of Christianity.
    The Religious Right hurts us all, their intolerance of people that don’t fit their world view has an impact that is only negative. They need to realize that since Christians and straight people are majorities in this country they have the responsibility of making sure there is room for everyone else, they can’t use that advantage to stomp on everyone, because the only thing that comes of that is people being squished out of existence. They point at the problems of LGBT people as evidence for their hatred, I dare them to really look in a mirror and who really has the problems: oppressed minority trying to ensure their civil rights, or majority group trying to stomp out opposition so they can enjoy their (illusory) version of a perfect country.

  461. @457 & 460: You’ve missed the point almost entirely–the fault lies not with religion itself, or even with all people of faith. The problem is that many, many of those people have taken the few sections of the bible that “mention” (and that is a stretch in some cases) homosexuality to mean “God hates fags, so you should too”. The problem with that line of thinking is that the rest of the bible is largely about love and acceptance of your fellow man. Also, the Bible isn’t followed to a T anymore in many regards: lots of people work on the Sabbath, no one owns slaves, and divorce is commonplace now–all things strongly discouraged in the Bible (for which, one punishment was stoning, by the way). I’m not saying that that is the belief of every Christian, nor do I believe is Dan Savage, but there is an undeniable culture of people within the Christian community who stand on a pulpit and use their “faith” to promote their bigoted agendas.

  463. True it’s not all “Christians” but if you are not speaking up to those fellow Christians you are just as equally responsible for the deaths of those kids. Perspective is what you need, and DEAD KIDS are a bigger priority than the truth that many “Christians” are unGod like, hurts
    your feelings. Anyone who fails to get this is NOT living the life God wants them too live. Shame on you for putting yourself in front of anyone, much less children who feel so hated that they kill themselves. I hope hell is huge, because a lot of “Christians” are going to end up there.

  464. True it’s not all “Christians” but if you are not speaking up to those fellow Christians you are just as equally responsible for the deaths of those kids. Perspective is what you need, and DEAD KIDS are a bigger priority than the truth that many “Christians” are unGod like, hurts
    your feelings. Anyone who fails to get this is NOT living the life God wants them too live. Shame on you for putting yourself in front of anyone, much less children who feel so hated that they kill themselves. I hope hell is huge, because a lot of “Christians” are going to end up there.

  465. I have never heard of you before, and I can honestly say my world is not ONE ounce better now that I have heard of you. You, my friend, are a coward and a filthy liar and hypocrite, and that HAS NOTHING to do with the fact that you’re gay. I am a christian and I believe … NO, I know, that The Bible forbids the gay lifestyle, but I don’t spend even one second of my day speaking out against them or attacking homosexuals, but you seem to thrive on attacking christians, the Word of God and our faith.
    If you want to ignore what God says about this matter, that’s your choice.
    If I want to fully believe in what God says about this matter and every other matter, that’s MY choice.
    Everytime you bash christians, you’re just showing your own insecurities and your are bullying, the very thing that we’re all trying to fight against.
    If I met you, I would treat you like anyone else and love you unconditionally. I have 2 gay family members. They know how I believe and know that I don’t condone their lifestyle, but they also know that I love them with my whole heart. One of them is suffering with Aids and it breaks my heart.
    I hate bullying and would absolutely condemn anyone that hurts anyone – emotionally or physically, but that’s exactly what you’re doing. There’s no way you can deny this. All of your writings and columns prove it. Apparently, you’re not as comfortable as you claim you are.
    Your energies are being wasted on this earth. Even your famous phrase … F*^k your feelings! are an undeniable proof that you are hypocritical. You don’t care about others, but you expect people to care about your feelings and priorities. Sorry buddy, it doesn’t work that way.
    You see .. I wouldn’t dislike you because you’re gay, I would dislike you because, seemingly, you are a bully with a heart full of hatred.
    By the way, God loves you with a love that we could never translate fully.
    “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son .. that whosoever believeth in Him, should not perish but have everlasting life” John 3:16.

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