O They Will Know We Are Christians...

Comments

1
SPLC would be a joke if it wasn't such a whore.
"surprisingly" the list of HATE GROUPS grows and grows-
good for keeping the donors scared shitless and generous.

when Obama was elected the SPLC newsletter gravely listed Racial Hate Crimes the election prompted, including Idaho second graders yelling politically incorrect comments out their bus windows.
Oh the Hate-
These are times that try men's souls, truely...
2
"every time I see Tony Perkins on TV I find myself wondering who's lifting his luggage."

Dan spends a lot of time obsessing about
the sexual mores and secrets of famous conservatives.

Naughty Naughty Conservatives!

It's a "hobby" of his....
3
@2: And they never seem to disappoint, do they? Male hookers, crystal meth, rampant adultery....
4
@2,3 yup, makes for some good watchin'.
5
To me, there's absolutely no question that the Family Research Council is a hate group. They just hate people who unfortunately are more socially acceptable to hate (LGBT, atheists) than those whom many other hate groups hate (ethnic minorities, Jews). But it's hate either way, and ought to be treated as such.
6
3
Now Dan, don't be working yourself up into a frenzy at work...
7
@5

Lucky for SLOG the targets of it's Hate are totally acceptable to Hate on- Christians, Catholics...count on a total pass from SPLC
8
I don't think that the FRC should be considered any different from neo-nazi groups.

@7: I'm a Christian, and I've watched carefully how well Dan, other Stranger bloggers and SLOG commenters have treated people like Kim, who are non-hater Christians. I've, personally, never felt like this is a community that hates Christians and Catholics...it's just been a community that's held us to account
9
@7: We don't advocate executing or deporting or lynching Christians. All we want is for you schmucks to do is stop trying to cram YOUR ideology down OUR throats.
It's the classic game of the offender playing the victim. "You guys won't let me harass and criminalize these people! Why do you hate my religion?" It's just another sort of blood libel.
10
@9 Yeah,

It's like the Prop 8 guys claiming the nasty homo fascists are going to come after them...

"Ooh, we're endangered by your intolerance."

Where do (certain) Christians get off claiming that they're a threatened minority?

Last time I checked Christians were pretty much in charge around here.
11
I have complained to TeeVee stations foe years that every time the issue is gay rights they trot out preacher of hate. Why don't they trot out a Nazi every time the issue is Jewish? Or the Klan every MLK day?
12
Pointing out the inability of someone to live up to their self-proclaimed morals and values, to draw attention to their hypocrisy, is not being hateful. It's called being compassionate. Sometimes, compassion resembles a swift kick in the ass and not a kindly pat on the shoulder.

It's better to have ones hypocrisy revealed then to grow blind to the log in ones eye.

The actions of the Family Research Council have been hateful and evil. They are a thorn bush masquerading as a grape vine and their lack of fruit is evident. Of course, that is only my opinion.
13
@8
Sure.
Danny and the slog get all wet in the panties over a "Christian" who will come on and kiss their asses and tell them that the Bible approves homosexuality and God made them That Way and Jesus Loves It and anyone who believes different is a Hateful Bigot oh Let Me Apologize For All The Hateful Bigot Christians.
Danny and the slog have nothing but Love for that flavor of "Christian".
That's awfully tolerant and broadminded of Danny and the slog.
14
9
Jewish Scripture calls for homosexuals to be put to death.
What is society supposed to do about Judaism?
Should it be classified as a Official Hate Group?
15
@14: Don't try to quote the Tanakh to me, you Amalekite.
The Torah reads: "And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them." (Lev. 20:13, American Standard Version)
Gay men do not lie with mankind as with womankind; they lie with mankind as with mankind. The sin is when straight men use each other as substitutes for women because they, for whatever reason, aren't getting any otherwise.
Don't you blaspheme to me and pretend that you know it all.
16
Gay rights don't limit freedom of religion in any conceivable worldly way that I can think of. Freedom of religion means you have the freedom to choose your belief system but it does give the right to force those beliefs on others that don't share your highly subjective and personal belief system. People have the right to pursue consensual sexual relations with whomever they choose and if your religious beliefs forbid you have sex with a person of the same gender or have have sex outside of marriage nobody has the right to force you to do either of those things.
17
The Bible is a collection of approved, canonized, symbols, it takes a person to read it, interpret it, and to apply reason. It is not an "Authority" that can stand on its own. Facts are facts, the contents of the canonized Bible was written over ~1200 year period more than 2000 years ago; it covers ancient traditions and practices that existed over a 2100 year period of social culture and worldview that has long passed away. The entire Doctrine of Penal Substitution, that Jesus came to die for your sins, wasn't practiced in the first 1000 years of the Christian church. The early church taught the The Doctrine of Ransom or Classic Theory, that Christ the great hero fooled Satan into accepting his death for the souls of men and that Satan couldn't contain him. They taught that God said, "Yes, to Jesus and his nonviolent quest for social justice" and "No, to Cesar and the Roman governments way of justice". The Penal-Substitution theory was formulated by the 16th century Reformers as an extension of Anselm's Satisfaction theory. "The Satisfaction (or Commercial) theory of the atonement was formulated by the medieval theologian Anselm of Canterbury (1033-1109) in his book, Cur Deus Homo (lit. ‘Why the God Man’). He wrote that, God’s offended honor and dignity could only be satisfied by the sacrifice of the God-man, Jesus Christ.
Anslem believed that humans could not render to God more than what was due to him. The satisfaction due to God was greater than what all created beings are capable of doing, since they can only do what is already required of them. Therefore, God had to make satisfaction for himself. Yet if this satisfaction was going to avail for humans, it had to be made by a human. Therefore only a being that was both God and man could satisfy God and give him the honor that is due him (http://www.theopedia.com/Satisfaction_th…).

The point being, don't turn off your mind, don't believe you have all the answers, always keep educating yourself.
18
...as they tut-tut their hatred, smirk their oily smiles, and promise viewers that they love homosexuals, despite our "sins."

Although they love to use the saying "hate the sin, love the sinner" they really don't have any love for gays and lesbians because what they hate is not just same-sex sex but same-sex love and when you hate something that fundamental about a person's being, who they are attracted to and love, it's ludicrous to claim that you love that person.

What I fail to see is why homosexuality is such a bogeyman to the "family values" crowd when there are so many things that straight people are doing (e.g. cheating, domestic abuse) that destroy families.
19
14: Jewish Scripture calls for homosexuals to be put to death. What is society supposed to do about Judaism?
Should it be classified as a Official Hate Group?


Leviticus 20: [9] For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death.

[10] And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

[13] If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death.


Those, of course, aren't the only reasons in the Torah/Old Testament that a person is supposed to be put to death. There are plenty. Exodus 35 (my personal favorite) says that people who work on the "seventh day" (actually Saturday, not Sunday) should be put to death.

I think that any group of people (Jews & Christians) who have a "holy" book which calls for people who work on Saturday to be put to death could reasonably be called a Vicious & Violent Controlling Asshole Group.
20
15

ah...you greasy little meschumed

Whoring after the heathen god of secular homohumanism, are we?

Is there any wonder your God has abandoned you
to wander for 2500 years?

OK

We'll play it your way.

Jewish Scripture calls for men who engage in homosexual behavior
to be put to death. (we won't get into what it proscribes
for disobedient children...)
What is society supposed to do about Judaism?
Should it be classified as an Official Hate Group?
21
@12
Pointing out the failings of others is tricky business.
Those doing the pointing are usually are the ones with the beam.
22
@8

Then you haven't been paying close attention. Sloggers, on the whole, while maybe not hateful, are certainly arrogant in the way that a silly 18-year-old who thinks he has all the answers is. Funny, because such an attitude confirms how narrow-minded they themselves are, and is basically the hallmark of immaturity.
23
@20: You lie about the contents of the Pentateuch; you blaspheme to me and call it God's own word. I am a Member of the Tribe. I am a faithful follower of the God of Avraham, Yitzchak, and Ya'akov, the God of Sarah, Rivka, Rachel, and Leah, the God that is master of both justice and compassion. Before you claim to interpret the Word of God, learn and understand the Tanakh; read the writings of and pertaining to the great rabbis and sages of Judaism, of people like Moshe ben Maimon, the Maharal, Rabbi Hillel, Rabbi Akiva, and Rashi.
Read the Tanakh, not just the parts that you can twist into justifying your perverse worldview. If you read the actual wording of the passages of Leviticus that you cite incessantly, it is clear as day that the prohibition is not against homosexual intimacy or love, but rather against perversely substituting one thing for another. Certain prohibitions are against sexually substituting an animal for a man or woman; the prohibition you misinterpret is against sexually substituting a man for a woman.
In short: when you become a Jew, I'll let you give me your take on the Tanakh. But not until then, you Amalekite.

"What is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow: this is the whole Torah; the rest is the explanation; go and learn."
--Rabbi Hillel
24
Tony Perkins agrees with Dan (though doesn't seem to realize it): An Inveterate Bigot's Stunning Admission
25
Then, @ 21, kindly take your own advice and put your finger down. No-one has asked you to scold the rest of us because we don't agree with your point of view. You are only an unregistered pot amongst registered kettles; your perception of your own opinion doesn't make you any more correct, just because you think that it should.

I sincerely hope you have a lovely weekend.
26
@22-
@9 said it best. If so-called Christians would quit trying to mold the government after their own beliefs, and stop cramming their self-loathing, depression-riddled, miserable way of life down *everyone's* throat, I doubt anyone here would speak about xtians. We have our own lives to live.
Why is that so hard to understand? Quit preaching hate, and we'll just as quickly let you live and let live. Geez.
27
Venomlash @15, 23;

Thanks. Always bugs me when the bacon-eatin', poly-cotton wearin', crowd tries to point fingers at someone else's behaviour and rely on Torah to do it.
28
22/Confluence: Funny, because such an attitude confirms how narrow-minded they themselves are, and is basically the hallmark of immaturity.

I'd say that not being open to any contrary ideas is a hallmark of immaturity but we're all "narrow"-minded to some degree. I doubt there are few people alive who are truly open-minded in the sense of being open to all ideas and opinions, no matter how offensive or hateful. If a neo-Nazi thinks I'm narrow-minded because I'm not open to his negative opinions of Jews, or a fundamentalist Christian accuses me of being closed-minded because I'm not open to her negative opinions of same-sex relationships, they would both be theoretically correct but I'm hardly going to apologize for not being open-minded regarding their views.

The big difference between gays/lesbians and fundamentalist Christians (and other conservatives) is that gays/lesbians aren't trying to prevent those folks from doing something, whereas those folks are trying to prevent gays/lesbians from doing something: getting married. Plus, as much as the hate by gays/lesbians towards Christians can be a turn-off to me I understand it because their hate is a response to the historical and current drumbeat of hate by so many Christians.

29
26
If homosexuals would quit trying to mold the government after their own beliefs, and stop cramming their self-loathing, depression-riddled, miserable way of life down *everyone's* throat.....
30
25
oh my
who is scolding whom?
31
23
Your rabbis have lead you down a dead end path and far away from your God.
Why has your God not given you His Word thru a prophet for 2500 years?
Because you have distorted and perverted what He has given you?
Because you have grossly deviated from His Word?
Has God abandoned you?
Is your God dead? Mute?
Or have you taken yourself far from His presence?
If you read the words of the Tanakh you do not understand it.
You profess belief with your mouth but your heart is false and closed.
You read but do not understand, your ears do not hear, your heart is closed.
32
@29: WUT? All homosexuals (as a group) want is for people to leave them alone and let them get married. You might as well say that civil rights activists were shoving their way of life down racists' throats.

@31: You lie and blaspheme. God has not abandoned His Chosen People. Though two temples have been destroyed, we have kept the faith; we have praised God through the ages. Despite our constant persecution at the hands of the Romans and Christians, God has not allowed us to perish.
We have no need for an endless outspilling of prophets. The prophets of old have delivered us to God's path, and Moshe, greatest of the prophets, brought to us God's Torah. Our faith is complete; we are not children, who need a constant reminder of God's existence. God's gift to us is His Torah and His Shabbat, and we are neither so greedy no so arrogant as to demand prophets as well.
It is you who read but do not understand; you accept only what the priests tell you and never seek to find meaning in holy words on your own. Your terror of heresy has made you too cowardly to do anything but blindly repeat the doctrine of men as if it were the word of God Himself. You eschew the warmth of God's love, living piously not because you love God, but because you fear punishment. Which is better? To love God or to fear another?
We are with God and God is with us. Am Yisrael Chai.
33
32
You have grown comfortable in the Wilderness.
Does Salvation come from the Law of Moses?
Do you no longer look for the Messiah?

You are quite arrogant in your tribal pride.
You have much to learn, Padowan....
34
32
God has not abandoned His Chosen People;
they abandoned Him.
They killed and rejected the prophets of old;
and say there is no need of more prophets?
Your faith is a dried up husk,
barren and lifeless.

Why is there no temple today?
Thousands of animals slaughtered
in ostentatious outward pious observance
but hearts black and far from God-
Was your God sickened by the hypocrisy?

Your faith is complete?
Do you no longer look for the Messiah?
35
@33: We wait everyday for the Moshiach. We are not so desperate as to stamp an ordinary man, pious as he may be, with his name. In your arrogance, you dirty the name of a good man by making a golden calf out of him.
May you lead an interesting life.

@34: We killed and rejected no prophets. In the days of old, when a prophet came to warn us against the wickedness we had fallen into, we listened and repented. We have grown since then. We have strengthened our faith. We need no more prophets; God has given us our portion, and we are not greedy. In the old days, we gave up the finest of our flocks to God's altar in symbolism of our loyalty to Him. Our temples were destroyed by nonbelievers, but that has not broken us. Whenever we read the passages pertaining to the holy sacrifices, it is as if we were performing them on God's very altar. We wait for the Moshiach, but we wait patiently. We do not self-importantly insist that his days are nigh. Our faith is complete; we have in it the promise of the Moshiach.
And though you try harder every day, you will not break us, you Amalekite.
May you grow like an onion with your head in the ground.
36
35
interesting story.
unfortunately you have to admit your mistakes before you can learn from them.
no unbeliever could harm your temple when your God was with you.
or rather, when you were with Him.
we don't know what your rabbis tell you but the Babylonian captivity and Roman exile weren't exactly rewards for good behavior...
dear boy, no one wants to break you.
only shine a little light.
God is not done giving you chances.
when he is ready prophets will deliver the message.
try not to kill these....
37
@36: So you know about Jewish history now, do you, you arrogant Amalekite? We have redeemed ourselves time and again. Why else would the Maccabis have been able to resanctify the ruins of the Second Temple and witness the miracle of the sacred light?
You blaspheme yet again to claim, based on no sacred text or prophet's declaration, that you know the will of God.
You also show your utter ignorance of our history by claiming that God's grace protected us from all harm; God brought us to great harm when he allowed us to be enslaved in Mitzraim. And yet it was but a test, and he brought us out from Mitzraim with riches, and as a great and powerful nation.
You know nothing of our history, and yet you commit the ultimate vanity of claiming to know all. You hypocrites observe only what part of your scriptures it suits you to, passing judgement as if you were the Kohen Gadol while ignoring the admonition to treat strangers with kindness and justice. If ever your people were strangers in a strange land, you have forgotten that you once were. We do not forget. We accept the needy and seek out righteousness, as it is written: "Justice, justice, shall you pursue."
You know nothing but lies and hatred and false facade of piousness. You consider prayers alone to be pleasing to God and ignore the task of Tikkun Olam. You are a pathetic and misguided example of twisted and idolatrous faith.
And to get a little bit Yiddish on you: May all of your teeth fall out, except one to make you suffer.
38
37
now Jr hysteria is having a definite negative impact on your reading comprehension-

the only portion of God's will we claim to know is what He has plainly revealed through His prophets in your scriptures. Perhaps you should dispense with the rabbi's interpretation and do some original research yourself.

we didn't claim that God's grace protected you from all harm, we observed that when your temple and nation were destroyed (twice) it was because you had rejected your God. (God didn't 'bring you to great harm', dear boy, you brought yourselves to great harm when you rejected your God and His protection)

'observe only what part of your scriptures it suits you to'?
Glass Houses, mucho? exactly what parts of the Law of Moses do you observe? when you read the passages it is as if you were performing them? REALLY? did a rabbi tell you that? did he offer to sell you a bridge as well?

kindness?
justice?
you ungrateful little bastard.
whose gentile arms and shoulders did your God use to bring Israel's sons and daughters home?
whose kings and queens will be nursing fathers and mothers to Israel?
Israel doesn't have many friends in the world (whose your daddy? not Obama, perhaps you've noticed...) the redneck Bible thumping Americans you love to sneer at are much stronger guardians of Israel than arrogant snot nosed homohumanist perverters of the Word such as yourself.

you are aware that America is the most generous just nation the planet has ever seen?
have you noticed?
and that justice and generosity has been extended to all creeds and races to an extent never equaled before?
not just to The Tribe....
using your Bible we became the nation your God could only hope you would be.
of course, as we merrily skip to gomorah that is all becoming our past.

lies?
the truth stings.

hated?
not-guilty.
only sympathy for someone who is in a pit and doesn't realize it.

as for your spells and insults-
You don't want to sell me death sticks.
You want to go home and rethink your life. ...
39
@15
ps-
your fanciful misinterpretation of Lev. 20:13 is pure BS
but it's probably the least of your problems...
40
@38: You make an excellent point that hysteria doesn't help an argument. You make an excellent demonstration of that point.
If you knew a lick of Jewish history, like you claim to, you'd know that God saved the Israelites by bringing them into Mitzraim during a famine, kept them there for many years, allowed them to suffer through no fault of their own, and then brought them out of Mitzraim strong and wealthy. Your claim that not having prophets sent to us being a sign of our sinfulness is pure idiocy; the number one cause of a prophet being sent, in biblical history, is to warn us of our sinfulness and urge us to repent. Judging by that record, no news is good news when it comes to communication from God.
You take credit for America's success that is neither warranted nor deserved by Christianity. America was not conceived as a Christian nation; the Founding Fathers were not religious men. In fact, mainstream Christianity in America has historically been a force for regression, xenophobia, and immorality. Who twisted their holy texts into a support for slavery and racism? Who imposed Prohibition on the nation? Who instituted draconian immigration quotas on the nation, causing refugees from Nazi Germany to be turned back from the shore? Who today still seeks to oppress ethnic and sexual minorities? Religious Christian politicians, all of them.
Using OUR holy books and the legacy of a just and pious man, you created a faith that has, rather than bringing any actual justice and peace to the world, hid behind a mask of holiness and propriety while forcing other peoples to convert (faith imposed is no faith at all, but rather cowardice), creating a power structure that increased the hardships of the peasant class, starting horrible and bloody wars in the name of "liberating" the Holy Land from its just and tolerant rulers, and in its own schisms causing immeasurable bloodshed within the borders of Europe. Congratulations, bible-thumper. You sure did a good job. I'm more of the opinion that Jesus would have a fit if he saw what kind of stuff you invoke his name for.
In regards to your comments about rednecks and Israel, I will leave you with this much. Every year at Pesach, we close the service with the following words: "L'shana haba'a b'yerushalayim", or "next year in Jerusalem". This does not mean that we wish to physically be in Jerusalem; Jerusalem is an ideal of peace and justice that does not yet exist. Making this ideal, where oppression has vanished from the earth, is what Tikkun Olam is all about. Being a true guardian of Israel means helping it to grow as a nation, not encouraging it to become the very evil that has been inflicted on us so many times. That is why I have very little love for Israel as a political entity. And no matter how much Christianity may support Israel now, there is no undoing the pogroms, the blood libel, the ghettos, the genocides, and the countless other acts of fearful, bloodthirsty oppression that you have visited upon us.

@39: You know this how?
I should add that you're the one who interprets it as condemning lesbians as well as gay men.

Both of you: you should be married to the daughter of the Angel of Death.
41
40
you are a sad confused misled little puppy.
good luck.
42
@41: Keep worshiping that golden calf. (Read up on the 2nd Commandment of the Ten.)
43
40
You deny Protestant Christianity credit for America's good?
To whom do you give the credit?
Perhaps your homosexual wing of Judaism?
Is that the version of American history the rabbi teaches you?
Who deserves the credit for America's good?
Or do you find no good in America....
44
@43: First off, you're making up my "homosexual wing of Judaism". I belong to a fairly mainstream congregation. Although if what you meant by that is "we accept homosexuals for who they are", I guess we're guilty as charged. Also, our rabbis don't indoctrinate us. We discuss; we raise questions. We all seek to find meaning in the Tanakh as a group. Moving on:
The progress that America has made cannot be claimed by any religion. By and large, advances are due to secular forces; the profit motive drove a great deal of scientific advancement, humanists (mostly Christian humanists, to be sure, but still humanists) worked for civil rights and equality under the law, and activists of many stripes (unionists, politicians, etc.) brought about reforms and established a stable financial system. What great good has organized religion done for us?
There is a reason we separate the church and state.
45
44
what we mean is the torture and distortion of scripture to invent a bullshit laughable fairy tale about Mosaic acceptance of homosexuality.

America was founded and established by and large by Protestants seeking religious freedom.
Freedom to think and worship as they pleased.
Free from a state religion, especially Catholic, but any state imposed belief system.
Overwhelmingly the cultural driving force during the decades when the nation was founded and became great was generic Protestant Christianity.
That was a continuation of a drive that began in Europe with the reformation- the drive to print the Bible and study it in one's own language rather than accept the Catholic Churches dictates of what a Latin Bible supposedly said (beware of being spoon fed selfserving clergy invented interpretation of scripture, Jr- don't put a Priest or Rabbi between yourself and God's word...)
You fail to acknowledge or are unaware that every positive movement and advance in Western civilization for the past half millenium was driven by people overtly motivated by their (Christian) faith. Undoubtedly your liberal public employee union school teachers and radical left professors and 'mainstream' rabbi haven't taught you these things but you should do a little independent study...

And be aware that it is not a matter of any particular denomination.
It is the broad current of history we are talking about.
You love to assume and accuse the troll's religious beliefs, suffice it to say that you are tremendously ignorant of what the troll believes (if anything) religiously; one need not adhere to any creed to see and recognize the role religion has played in history.

You and Dan are hampered- you have your memorized mantras and fervent devout doctrines that box your thinking and prompt you to hiss BLASPHEMY and Dan is blinded by his hatred of religion and christianity and catholics especially no doubt stemming from some dark childhood tramau he won't face- both of you can't or won't see that the positive influences of religion on Western civilization have far outweighed the negative.

What has made the great nations great has been that 'generic' Protestant ethic.
As the Reformation brought Europe out of the Dark Ages the Anglo and Germanic nations emerged and energized the parts of the world they influenced.
Compare the Commonwealth nations and USA that were nurtured by Britain to the nations that were colonized by Spain.

It is true that that effect is rapidly diminishing.
Western nations are fleeing the values that made them great;
secular humanist socialists are "Trust Brats"- squandering the prosperity they inherited on social programs that are bankrupting their nations. Europe is adopting secular humanism as the new state religion, America is following suit.
Western culture (and, evidently your 'mainstream' sect as well) is rapidly merrily skipping toward gomorah- it is a trip that will bring on increasing social chaos and disruption and will culminate in the disintergration of those societes.

enjoy the ride.
46
Anyone else ever notice that the unregistered troll, on several occasions, proclaims "not" to be a churchy-type, yet still as often, flings church dogma around at the first opportunity?

Is the unregistered troll simply a Sybil? I think so. There are medication that can quiet those voices within your head, unregistered troll.
47
46
not so.
in fact, our dogma was run over by our karma....
haha

perhaps the secular humanists mistake a discussion of religion's role in history for "dogma"....
48
@47 - Though I'm reluctant to continue this line of conversation with you, as you lack any signs of compassion or empathy towards your fellow human beings, I'm inclined to state, that there are two schools of thought, regarding spirituality from those that claim a belief in a higher being.

Those that believe God is love and that we are not to judge, "lest we be judged," or those that believe they are free to judge, because they see themselves as the voice of God, incarnate (from God's mouth to your keyboard, so to speak). Those that believe God, in his infinite wisdom, is fully capable of rational, empathetic thought and feeling toward "ALL" of his children, or those that believe God is all "fire and brimstone," incapable of rational thought or empathetic feeling towards all. Those that believe God is at work, through the good deeds of others that promote the well being of the human race (including that of equality), or those that believe the devil is at hand, because allowing others to live their lives, free from persecution, is just not God's intent (based on a handful of lines written in a book, 2,000 years ago). Those that feel God is found doing good works (helping the poor, the hungry, the lonely, the hated), or those that believe they must crusade for a Government that holds to their ideals and be damned those that don't. Those that believe the world IS getting better, one baby step at a time, and those that believe the world is going to hell just by letting others live in peace (see your constant "skipping to Gomorrah" comment).

It's blatantly apparent which camp you choose to reside in. We get. You hate any thought or possibility that others may be "different" than you or your way of thinking. You've beat that horse to death, already. You don't believe it righteous of God to allow others the same as you. We get it. Our ability to love and marry who we wish will destroy all you hold dear. We get it. Being allowed to be different is an affront to your very being. We get it. Again, I'll state, you beat that horse to death, already.

As someone that does believe in God, I'll choose to believe in a God that is loving, kind, generous, and all inclusive (as you so often put down Kim from Portland or venom for believing). You are free to believe I will burn in hell for doing so. But know this, if Heaven is filled with nothing more than the likes of you and your kind, I have no use for it. I'll spend my eternity with the other generous, caring and loving Christians. But, until we all know for sure, I'll continue to believe that God is far more capable of love, empathy and inclusiveness, above any that I or you can feel towards our fellow human beings, including His gay and lesbian children. Why? Because He is God and I am limited by being human. If I am capable of feeling compassion towards my fellow human beings, He, as God, is infinitely more capable, than I (or you, obviously).

If I am wrong and God truly feels nothing but anger, hate and can feel nothing for the good inside gay and lesbian people (people, which by the way, He created), then by all means, enjoy your Heaven. But, if I were you, I'd just hope there isn't something in your nature that sets you apart from all those other pious, self-righteous souls that also believe they too will be inheriting His Kingdom.
49
Dear @ 47,

I just want you to know that I read your comments and that I think about you a lot. For lack of a better description, my heart hurts for you. Your comments make me sad, and not as you would have them, but, because they indicate that you are not at peace and not joyful. I'll admit that I don't understand how spending time belittling others anonymously could make someone feel good about one's self. Just the opposite, to the outside observer it makes you appear sad and in need of having your humanity acknowledged. I hope you find the acceptance, peace and joy that your words reflect you are in need of.

Take care of yourself.
50
40
Your attitude about prophets;
that they are only sent when there is need of rebuking and
No News is Good News;
seems a little pessimistic.
Didn't your God reveal His will through His prophets?
Didn't the prophets anoint the Kings of Israel?
Was Moses only sent to rebuke?
The world has changed a great deal in 2500 years.
While Truth is Eternal circumstances change.
Perhaps current prophets could reveal your God's updated
dietary and dress instructions.
No need for revelation or prophets?

Is that your rabbi's advice?

Do not be lulled into remaining satisfied
Wandering in the Wilderness
Cut Off from your God.
51
48
49
I appreciate your comments and concern.
I hope to post a thoughtful reply at some point.
Have a nice weekend.
52
WOW! I think it's pretty obvious why our forefathers had the intelligence to seperate church and state. They knew how volitile religous fanatics could be and what violence could be wreaked on innocent people in the name of God. Every country and religion should be against murdering people. Even if they don't agree with their sexual orientation, religion, or political beleifs.So many people throughout time have been killed in the name of God, but it wasn't done to glorify God, but because some human couldn't control their hatred for what they didn't agree with. Because of the principles that our country were founded upon, America should be defending these people whose lives are in peril unjustly.
53
The Southern Poverty Law Center is a Left Wing scam operation that pumps the number of "Hate Groups" to frighten credulous donors into giving.

They have a financial interest in inflating the number of "Hate Groups"

American Institute of Philanthropy's Charity Ratings Guide gave the SPLC an "F" rating

54
@45: You seem to be awfully fond of freedom from "any state imposed belief system" for someone who advocates taking rights away from homosexuals.
Also, do you have any evidence to support your assertions that "the cultural driving force during the decades when the nation was founded and became great was generic Protestant Christianity" or that "every positive movement and advance in Western civilization for the past half millenium was driven by people overtly motivated by their (Christian) faith."
On that second one, how about Albert Einstein? Alan Turing? Machiavelli? Mary Curie? Levi Strauss? Jane Goodall? Sam Clemens? Isaac Asimov? I'm sure they were all great Christian men and women whose accomplishments were motivated by having accepted Jesus.
I should mention that you're one to talk about "the torture and distortion of scripture"; you think that Leviticus 20:13 somehow contains some condemnation of lesbians. Also, you're the one who prays before crucifixes, if I'm not mistaken. Not making an idol (whether for God or for someone else) is one of the Ten Commandments, for God's sake!

@45, 50: Most of what you say I've already covered, but I should mention this.
None of what I've said is what my rabbi told me. The rabbis in my congregation don't preach to us. If we're looking into the interpretation of a certain passage, we do so as a group (or as several small groups) and pool our ideas.
I'm afraid that blind obedience to a handed-down doctrine (or being burned at the stake as a heretic) is more of a Christian hallmark.

@51: For when you do, we can do without the poetry.

@53: You know why they were given an "F"? Not because they pay themselves big salaries or anything of that nature, but because they keep a lot of money on reserve. And that is reasonable, considering the number of cases they take where they are going up against wealthy and powerful organizations and individuals.
I'm sure you'd just rather that hatred and violence towards Teh Ghey be perfectly accepted and mainstream. BAWWWWWW me a river, you cockmongling queefburger.
55
54
we disapprove of having secular humanist's religious values forced on public school children.
we disapprove of changing centuries old laws and institutions specifically to bring them in line with the current fad beliefs of 'mainstream' religious sects such as yours.

are those the best examples you've got?
Asimov is our favorite writer but we can imagine life struggling on (somehow...) without the atom bomb, Levi jeans or The Foundation Series....

alas, you are painfully mistaken.
no bowing before graven images for the troll.

funny thing about the SPLC-
of their 900+ "Official" "Hate Groups" how many do you think target Christians?
disagreeing with a loyal Democrap interest group will land you on the list in a heartbeat, however.
no, they are all about turning tricks for the Radical Left. be sure to bring lots of cash, but if you do the SPLC will show you a real good time, honey...
another flavor of secular humanist Indulgences-
pay your money to Al Gore to buy absolution from your Environmental Sins,
pay the SPLC and you can get anyone you dislike labeled an "Official" Hate Group... Hate Buster Secret Decoder Ring included at no extra charge!
(and, actually, they ARE criticized for the big salaries they pay themselves...)
56
"In fact, unknown to most CFC donors, the tax-exempt SPLC flunked an audit by the Arlington-based Better Business Bureau's Wise Giving Alliance, which requires that "a reasonable percentage, at least 50 percent of total income from all sources, should be applied to programs and activities directly related to the purposes for which the organization exists."

...SPLC...spent 89 percent of its total income on fund-raising and administrative costs...

Granted, administrative costs tend to run high when executive salaries are in the six-figure range. For example,... Morris Dees, pulls down a cool $280,699...

... give your hard-earned dollars to a real charity, not a bunch of slick, parasitic hucksters who live high on the hog by raising money on behalf of needy people who never see a dime of it."
57
"...Morris Dees [founder of the Southern Poverty Law Center] won a judgment for a black woman whose son was killed by Klansmen. She received $51,875 as settlement. Mr. Dees, according to an investigation by the Montgomery Advertiser, pulled in $9 million from fund-raising solicitation letters that featured a particularly gruesome photograph of the grieving mother's son. Mr. Dees, who pays himself an annual salary of $275,000, offered the grieving mother none of the $9 million her son's death made for him.

Mr. Dees, in fact, earns — or is paid, which is not necessarily the same thing — more than nearly any officer of other advocacy groups surveyed by the National Journal, more than the chairmen of the ACLU, the NAACP Legal Defense Fund and the Children's Defense Fund.

"You are a fraud and a con man," Stephen Bright, director of the Southern Center for Human Rights, which actually takes on dozens of death-penalty appeals for poor blacks every year, once told him. "You spend so much, accomplish so little, and promote yourself so shamelessly."...

White guilt can be manipulated with black pain, but it has to be done carefully. It's a sordid scam. Some people would call what Morris Dees does a hate crime, but it's a living, and a very good one."
58
"Today, the SPLC spends most of its time--and money--on a relentless fund-raising campaign, peddling memberships in the church of tolerance with all the zeal of a circuit rider passing the collection plate. "He's the Jim and Tammy Faye Bakker of the civil rights movement," renowned anti-death-penalty lawyer Millard Farmer says of Dees, his former associate, "though I don't mean to malign Jim and Tammy Faye." The center earned $44 million last year alone--$27 million from fund-raising and $17 million from stocks and other investments--but spent only $13 million on civil rights programs, making it one of the most profitable charities in the country.
...But news of a declining Klan does not make for inclining donations to Morris Dees and Co., which is why the SPLC honors nearly every nationally covered "hate crime" with direct-mail alarums full of nightmarish invocations of "armed Klan paramilitary forces" and "violent neo-Nazi extremists," ...

Morris Dees is nothing if not a good salesman. So good in fact that in 1998 the Direct Marketing Association inducted him into its Hall of Fame. "I learned everything I know about hustling from the Baptist Church," Dees has said. ...

Morris Dees doesn't need your financial support. The SPLC is already the wealthiest civil rights group in America, though this letter quite naturally omits that fact. Other solicitations have been more flagrantly misleading. One pitch, sent out in 1995--when the center had more than $60 million in reserves--informed would-be donors that the "strain on our current operating budget is the greatest in our 25-year history." Back in 1978, when the center had less than $10 million, Dees promised that his organization would quit fund-raising and live off interest as soon as its endowment hit $55 million. But as it approached that figure, the SPLC upped the bar to $100 million, a sum that, one 1989 newsletter promised, would allow the center "to cease the costly and often unreliable task of fundraising." Today, the SPLC's treasury bulges with $120 million, and it spends twice as much on fund-raising--$5.76 million last year--as it does on legal services for victims of civil rights abuses. The American Institute of Philanthropy gives the center one of the worst ratings of any group it monitors
59
In 1986, the center's entire legal staff quit in protest of Dees's refusal to address issues--such as homelessness, voter registration, and affirmative action--that they considered far more pertinent to poor minorities, if far less marketable to affluent benefactors, than fighting the KKK. Another lawyer, Gloria Browne, who resigned a few years later, told reporters that the center's programs were calculated to cash in on "black pain and white guilt." Asked in 1994 if the SPLC itself, whose leadership consists almost entirely of white men, was in need of an affirmative action policy, Dees replied that "probably the most discriminated people in America today are white men when it comes to jobs."
60
charitynavigator.org gives the SPLC a score of 48 and a Fundraising Efficiency of $0.16

(by comparison the ACLU scores 68...)
61
critics noted that while Dees and SPLC regularly condemned rightwing extremist and nationalist groups, they consistently failed to apply similar scrutiny to leftwing hate groups.
62
As of 2000, SPLC’s assets exceeded $120 million; that same year, the organization spent twice as much on fundraising efforts as on legal services for victims of civil rights abuses. Accordingly, the American Institute of Philanthropy, a charity watchdog group, gave SPLC one of the worst ratings of all of the organizations it monitored.

"They're drowning in their own affluence," former SPLC legal fellow Pamela Summers told The Montgomery Advertiser. "What they are doing in the legal department is not done for the best interest of everybody [but] is done as though the sole, overriding goal is to make money." "I think people associate the SPLC with going to court," added Summers. "And that's why they get the money. And they don't go to court."
63
@55: Yes, we're forcing our values on you twerps. Values like tolerance and science instead of xenophobia and superstition. Have you ever considered that public schools should perhaps not pander to your deranged worldview? Are you afraid that your children (assuming you guys in particular can find mates) will lose their faith if they're not kept in an intellectually sterile environment? Faith in the absence of any contrary messages is not faith, but rather indoctrination.
And I wonder about the scarcity of anti-Christian hate groups...maybe there actually aren't as many as you think. In fact, how many active notable anti-Christian hate groups are there, according to your infallible thinking?
Also, you are a Christian, right? And you claim that a crucifix is not an idol? You're praying before a statue of the physical form of someone you claim is a divinity. How is that not idol-worship? A statue is no better than a graven image.

@56-62: Sources, Alleged, sources. Nowhere in your rants do any of you chumps give a single link. The best I got was a vague reference to charitynavigator.org.

@56: I'm not sure where you're getting your numbers from.
The SPLC, according to the same Charity Navigator report that you quote in #60, spent 68% of its total expenses on program expenses.

@61: Name me an active, notable "leftwing hate group" in America that the SPLC hasn't classified as such. Google fails me in this instance.
64
Dear 48 (frau Blucher)
Dear Kim

Thank you very much on your input.

Dear Venomlash,

Although I am not familiar with Judaism, I admire your dedication and your knowledge
65
Dear Chaya760,

It made my heart so happy to read you this morning. I have missed reading you. I think of you often and pray you are well.

Virtual hug being sent your way.

Take care of yourself.
66
@63, I feel damned inadequate, not that that's a terrible thing. I've started attending synagogue and talking to a rabbi about conversion, but I always have to remind myself how far I have to go.
67
@66: Rabbi Simcha Bunam taught that we should carry two slips of paper in our pockets: one reading "For my sake was the world created", and one reading "I am but ashes and dust".
Also, Confucius made the oft-quoted point that "a journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step".
68
48
You present two extremes but some believe in a God that is neither Fire&Brimstone or Permissive without any standards.

Some believe in a God who loves mankind and has shown them the way to be happy and reach their potential for joy. A God who has given instructions on how to live a full and happy life and how to avoid the pitfalls that rob life of joy. If/as people follow those instructions they find joy, if they choose to ignore the instructions they reap the inevitible consequences.

The 'rules' are not arbitrary, and even if god did not exist following them would lead to happiness, His role is pointing out the way.

If a parent warns a child that touching the flame will burn their finger and they touch the flame anyway it was not the parent who 'punished' the child, it was not their wish that the flame burn but they are not able to stop the flame from burning if the finger is inserted. The child may grow angry at the parent because the finger got burned but that is not rational or fair.

The consequences of touching the flame are immediate and obvious, usually in life, however, the consequences follow some time later and are not as immediantly apparent.

The parent tells the child not to play in the street. The child may get away with playing in the street a couple or even a dozen times but there is a good chance that eventually the child will get run over.

Some believe that God proscribes abstinence until marriage and fidelity within marriage.
It is interesting that the CDC states that to be the most certain way to avoid STDs.
God does not curse people with STDs when they engage in promiscuous sex, it is an inevitible biologic outcome of the behavior. God does not tell people to avoid promiscuous sex because he is a prude or a spoilsport, He tells them because the negative consequences of the behavior far outweigh the short term perceived benefits.

Some believe that God proscribes homosexual behavior. There are certainly a host of negative consequences to such behavior that epidemiologists can identify. There may be more, medical and/or emotional/spiritual, that man is not yet aware of. It is possible that God is smarter than us. The child may think, after playing in the street without getting run over- mom was wrong, this is fun... The tenth time the kid rides in the street and gets runover; he now realizes that mom wasn't so dumb after all.

Some believe God gives counsel, 'commandments' if you will, to allow individuals to be happy and societies to function efficiently. A society in which no one lied, stole, murdered, raped, fornicated, adultered etc would be a more funcytional society with more happy people than one in which those practices were common.

What if the kid is insistent on sticking the finger in the flame. Or playing in the street. They curse their parents for the 'arbitrary' stupid rules. They label the parent a Hater because the parent will not concede that sticking the finger in the flame is Normal and Natural. (don't moths fly into the flame, after all?...) They stick the finger in the flame and get burned. They are angry that the parent has not funded research to find a cure for burned fingers. Their friends mention that; 'hey, didn't you know that sticking your finger in the flame will burn?' and they refuse to associate with the friend or buy koolaid from their stand or play in their yard because they are a 'FingerFlamePhobic Hater' unless the friend recants and says that sticking your finger in the flame is cool.

Would the parent show 'love' for the stubborn kid by giving up and saying, "go ahead- stick your damn finger in the flame- I Love you soooo much that I'll let you do it..."
Is that a loving, kind, generous, and all inclusive parent?
Really?

The "Skipping to Gomorrah" is Dan's invention.
But it is actually pretty accurate.
If you think the world is getting better I'd love to borrow your Rose glasses.
Cause the world I see is sinking fast.
The "Every Child..." is just a drop in the bucket.
And- sorrrrryyy- homosexual marriage is not the cure.

I'm sure you probably gag on the ol' "love the sinner hate the sin".
But it is true.
Someone who really loves the kid won't get weary and finally say; 'go ahead, stick your damn finger in the flame- see if I give a shit...'
Someone who really loves the kid will keep saying 'honey, the flame will burn your finger'.

@49
The comments are not supposed to make you sad, Kim, in any way.
And we don't think we are smarter that anyone else.
But we can read.
And when people try to say that the Bible condones homosexuality we feel compelled to call bullshit.
It's as if the older brother told the kid 'hey, relax, mom just called and said it's OK to stick your finger in the flame!'
And, if sister said 'that's a lie' she's not belittling the older brother.
Just calling him on the BS lie.

Again, thanks for your concern.

69
@68: The only possible explanation I can think of for that load of incoherent raving is that you accidentally touched something hot ten minutes ago and thought "WOW! That would make a great argument as to why we should outlaw gay marriage etc.!"
70
Actually, @ 68, I don't think that the Bible in its present canonized form either condems or condones homosexuality. Homosexuality (and sodomy) are both English words. The word homosexuality first appeared in the Bible in the 1940s. The fact remains that the ancient Greek word for homosexuality isn't found in the New Testament or the Septeguent. And, to my understanding there isn't a word for homosexuality in ancient Hebrew either. So those passages just don't translate to say what the English translations want to claim they do, especially when taken within the the historical setting in which they belong.

Any way, it isn't your opinion that ever makes me sad. It is *how* you choose to deliver your opinion. Your delivery comes across as attempting to mask a level of rejection. Almost, like you need your words to lash out, because you're certain that despite the disagreement you won't be embraced. While I don't often agree with you, I wanted you to know that I'm trying to see the person behind your words and I hope there is a kind heart that is being masked.

That was the point behind my saying that reading you makes my heart hurt.

Take care.
71
@Venomlash: I am greatly enjoying your schooling of the troll in all things Judaic. Great writing. And, yeah, sadly, that troll is doing nothing but proving that doctrinal Christians are a sad sad lot, way too caught up in the forest to notice the trees.
72
venomlash,

Thank you for sharing. I'm ignorant about the Torah. Those who could have educated me on that part of my family history perished long ago under Hitler. No-one alive today can answer as to why those who arrived in N. America during the 1700s converted to Christanity (Amish and Quaker) either. Too many questions.
73
@72: I'm sorry to hear that you had family members who died in the Holocaust. My condolences, for what they are worth.

I'm not a terribly religious person. It's just when I see people trying to take my religion and twist it into condoning their hateful personal agendas, or claim that their religion is the perfection of mine, I feel like I'd be negligent as a Jew not to correct them.
74
Basically, as I read the troll's comments @ 68, he equates gays, lesbians and those that support equality for them as emotionally and intellectually stunted ADULTS (I capitalized "adults" for emphases) and are completely driven to gayness as a child is by whims of "sticking their hand into a flame," and thus should be "educated" by the likes of him.

He completely wasted his time writing such tripe. Thanks for being as condescending and belittling as usual. You certainly didn't disappoint, mister troll. Truthfully, I see you as the child that needs to be educated. Not the other way around. You're more like the know-it-all teenager, that feels he is far more intelligent than his parents.

Like I stated in my comment @48, I was reluctant to comment to you, as it is so apparent you already know everything there is to know about life, love, human beings and the world, how could anybody think you could possibly learn more? You did teach me something though. To never bother with you again. Thanks for the lesson.
75
74
gosh frauline we're sooo sorry you are disappointed-
please collect a full refund as you exit the theatre...
be careful- with a chip that large on your shoulder
you are probably often going to be mistaken for
Quasimoto or Atlas.

and it was such an insightful clever metaphor, too,
tragic it seems to have zoomed right over your head.

some folks want a god who will endorse whatever they decide to do.
(it's "loving, kind, generous, and all inclusive", isn't it?)
wow- it must be really ego boosting to worship an Almighty Diety
who thinks EXACTY like you do-
how does Stuart Smilley phrase it-
"I'm Good Enough, I'm Smart Enough, and Doggone It, God Thinks Just Like Me!"
cause, you know, a god that asked you do do something you didn't already want to do would be really mean and hateful....
and if god isn't going to be your biggest cheerleader in life what the shit good is he?

other folks look for a little more from god.
after all, if you're going to go to the trouble of worshiping a diety why waste your time with some schmuck who doesn't know anymore that you do?
it's like the gag about 'I wouldn't want to be a member of any club that would accept me as a member'...
so maybe it wounds your fragile prickly pride to be compared to a child but some folks hope to find a god who is smarter and wiser enough than them that, yeah, we are all children by comparison (can you believe that some folks even refer to God as 'Father'...can you really imagine anything more condescending and self belittling?!...)

of course, if you hitch your wagon to a really smart wise diety you have to be careful because when you share what your smart wise god has taught the people who worship a slacker stoner "hey, whatever dude" god get offended and think you are putting on airs...

but the nicest part is that you don't have to know everything there is to know about life, love, human beings and the world- you just have to be humble enough to accept that maybe, just maybe, god is smarter than you and be willing to take counsel from Him.

we think someone once said "fear of (respect for and deference to...) God is the beginning of Wisdom"
76
@75: "some folks want a god who will endorse whatever they decide to do."
God wants us to disenfranchise or even kill homosexuals? Sure thing! What's that? God wants us to convert our democratic republic into a theocracy so He can manage things more directly? All right, then! Wait, you say God wants us to forgive and praise anyone who accepts Jesus, regardless of their actions? Sounds good to me!

You make it seem like we're saying that God says homosexuality is the way to go. We're not. We're just pointing out that nowhere in the Tanakh (or your New Testament, for that matter) does God say or imply that we should oppress or kill homosexuals. Don't give me the tripe-on-a-bike about how Leviticus talks about Teh Ghey, not general buggery.
77
I have a question for the unregistered troll. I'd honestly like to know your response, because I read your comments in so many different threads. The question is this:

Do you believe that people who either don't believe in God or believe in a different God than yours can distinguish right from wrong? I get the impression that you're some denomination of Christian, so excuse me if I'm wrong, but if I believe that God is Allah, or Jehovah, or Yahweh, or Brahma, or Nirvana, or love, or nonexistent, would that necessitate your intervention and guidance? Do you believe that a moral compass is established by the belief in and following the dogma of God the way that you understand Him? Do you believe that morality, righteousness, and ethics can be found outside of religion?
78
If God (as any major religion depicts him) exists, it is a fickle, mad thing without the wisdom to make laws or the power to enforce them.
79
@Alleged, Dumb goy, don't you know that it doesn't matter what you think? It's all run by the Elders of Zion, and no matter how hard you fight for the right to act on your beliefs unmolested, victory for you will always remain elusive. The deck has been stacked.
80
77

Everyone is born with an innate sense of right and wrong.
'conscious', if you will.
Basic, big stuff- don't murder, hurt people, steal stuff, etc.
If a person ignores that innate inner voice and acts contrary to it's whispers
they will lose the ability to hear it, a 'seared' conscious.

But a huge influence on one's 'values' or moral compass
is the belief system they are exposed to, especially early on.
Religion, hippy parents, Liberal Secular Humanists, whatever.

There are lots of religions out there.
Most all teach some (and the same) pretty good basic stuff.
Don't murder, hurt people, steal stuff, etc.
If adherents actually followed the dictates of the religion they claim to believe in
the world would be a pretty good place.
However many (maybe most?) don't.
Often spectacularly not.
It may be unfair to blame the religion itself, however...
And if it was left at the pretty good basic stuff there wouldn't be much downside.

The tricky part is where religions get into the nature of 'god'
and what one must do to receive 'salvation'.
There they tend to vary greatly and things get a little hard edged.
And since they do vary so much obviously they all can't be right now, can they...

And if fervent adherents think THEY are right
and everyone else is pond scum bound for hell it can get messy.
(of course, within the big religions are various factions-
some mostly stick to the basic good stuff and don't get too hung up on exclusivity and 'salvation';
some are big into damnation...)
We suspect The One True God doesn't tell His adherents to kill non believers.
That might be a clue...

We suspect that The One True God doesn't tell his adherents
to 'force' nonbelievers to convert or believe.
Cause if it was needful (or possible) to FORCE people to believe
then surely the 'one true god' would be powerful enough to do that him/herself
and not leave it to his/her minions.
Since no all powerful god is out there forcing people to belong to any particular religion
we can assume that The One True God isn't interested in forcing people to believe.

So, no, followers of The One True God
would not feel/be compelled to provide
'intervention' to the unenlightened.
'Guidance'?
Friendly advice?
If one saw someone about to step over a ledge,
or standing in the tracks when the train is coming,
or about to eat something contaminated,
or otherwise acting on faulty information and about to do them self harm
they surely would feel compelled to offer some friendly advice, some 'guidance'.

Can morality, righteousness, and ethics can be found outside of religion?
Absolutely.
Often.

Can 'salvation' be found outside of religion?
Tricky.

Sorry for the long convoluted rambling answer.

To recapitulate-
We are born with a moral compass.
It often gets twisted.
Sometimes by religion.
There are a lot of moral, righteous, and ethical people;
some in all of the religions,
some outside organized religion.
The One True God won't force people to believe.
Nor will His followers.
You didn't ask about Salvation.
If it exists, the path to it must be through
The One True God.
All the various religions and sects cannot be right.
He will offer it to all.
He will force no one.

81
@80, So your position defending the FRC's lobbying for (essentially) the death of gays is informed by a live-and-let-live worldview where people don't necessarily have to live by your religion's rules to be good people. Sure. Your warning to gays and advice to Jews really comes across as friendly. The guidance has been so welcome. (/sarcasm)
82
81
actually nothing we said had anything to do with FRC- we forgot what the original post was about until you reminded us...
83
@80 Thanks for the thoughtful reply. I kinda wish you'd get an account so I could continue the conversation off this thread.