Attention, Patrons of Mars Hill Church and DeJa Vu

Comments

1
"These people are only doing this for attention!" says the reporter doing exactly what those protesters want.
2
There's a long history of the more radical feminists being anti-porn/sex/strip clubs/prostitution/many kinds of sex etc etc. Back in the 80's they went to the point of making common cause with some of the worst elements of the radical right to try & ban all of the above.

They are right about the oppressive character of churches like Mars Hill, but generate their own oppression when it comes to all the anti-sex stuff.
3
Ah, flashing back to my collegiate days, watching the protests outside of Boulder's one and only sex shop. (There was a strip bar at the far north edge of town, but it was probably both too far to go, and too scary as that was Boulder's only rednecky/working class neighborhood.)
4
oddly, my aunt gerri lives in delhi, ohio.
5
Everyone has a right to protest; however I think these girls are might just be upset because they are too fat to be strippers.

@3
Oh wow a typical liberal elitist fear/denigration of the working class and a racist slur aimed at working class whites. Par for the course.
6
It will be important for SLOG/Stranger to question the action against Deja Vu since it receives many $s in advertisement from same.
7
Ironically, this is an RCP front group - ironic, because despite protesting Mars Hill, the RCP has a long, long history of nasty homophobia.
8
@ 5, that ain't coming from me. I partied with those guys.
9
Yeah, I'm filling w/ nostalgia as well. I didn't know there were still 2nd-wave feminists out there willing to take to the streets. I thought they'd all retreated to the safety of their blogs.

OK, I'm gonna go full birther/truther/sgt doom here-- It's all a conspiracy! The forces behind the hard-core fundamentalists know their back is against the wall on all fronts. So they've dusted off one of their old weapons, the anti-porn feminists, as an attempt to once again muddy the waters of chauvinism. I'm sure that idiot Saletan is part of this as well, and we'll probably see a lot of mind-controlled dupes from traditional lefty/progressive sources railing against sexuality that deviates from the norm.

Ah, that felt good. Conspiracy theory is a nice indulgence, but never make it your career.
10
BTW, @ 5, may I point out the hypocrisy of denigrating one group of people in one paragraph, then protesting the (misperceived) denigration of another in the next?
11
It makes sense to stop at Mars Hill first. That way maybe they can persuade some of the congregation to come join them waving signs in front of the dirty, dirty they-oughta-be-ashamed-of-themselves store.
12
@1, yeah, I thought about that. But Anna and I had such a long conversation about Stop Patriarchy's blog/motivation in the office--and about how off kilter it feels to be unsupportive of a movement that we should, in theory, embrace--that I felt the conversation this post would generate would be worthwhile.

This and the recent ginned up "Tina Fey/Amy Poehler v Taylor Swift" controversy have me thinking a lot about feminism, being supportive of other women, and still being able to call out stupid behavior when it happens.

Anyway, those are thoughts that I am thinking!
13
@8
My apologies.

Also there is nothing wrong with denigrating fat people, they raise healthcare cost for all of us as well as increase taxes and debt when care is government provided. As well as resulting in the deaths of over 300,000 Americans a year (that is 10 times what firearms kill) http://www.surgeongeneral.gov/library/ca…

Plus if you have ever had to get a fat person into the morgue where you need a second person the squeeze their rolls together to get them through the fridge door you would lose all sympathy for such ham beast.
14
I feel worse for the idiots just handing money over to a dancing woman than I do for the women making a decent amount of money dancing.

I could be wrong, but I think Deja Vu is a pretty ethically run club. Porn, stripping, and prostitution can certainly be exploitative, but it need not be.
15
Since when are prudes that wrap their prudery in mouldering paleo-feminist arguments in favor of 'eroticism and sexual exploration'? Isn't pretty much any eroticism 'sexualized violence' to these people?
16
I've been to Deja Vu. Main floor is just naughty outfits, sex toys, and movies to take home. Upstairs, It's mostly men going down on other men with some porn playing in the background. There are a few rooms where you can see live boobies, and an arcade full of booths that are rigorously patrolled to ensure single occupancy, but the real action is in the cinemas, and oppression of women is the last thing on most of the patron's minds.
17
We MUST be talking about a different Deja Vu, the one on First is NOTHING like that upstairs
18
@13.. not to derail the thread , but there is some very very wrong with denigrating ANY group of people because of your perceived and supposedly well documented ideas about how much they 'cost' our society. blacks and the poor make up the lion's share of the number of people who make up the prison industrial complex. it would be cheaper if society just got rid of them altogether. but no. we've instituted various policies( the 'war on drugs' is an obvious example ) to keep that system healthy and solvent
yeah yeah.. i know .. black people can't change their skin color and fat people can lose weight. blahdetty blahdetty blah.. but as george clinton once said of drugs, when it becomes more profitable for people to BE healthy as it is to to rail about their health while institutionalizing disease and corpulence you'd see these rates fall.
so .. knock this bullshit off, or at least, recognize yourself for being the hateful unclefucker you are.
19
@18: Cascadian Bacon is a troll. He brings up this obesity argument out of nowhere, on a thread that has nothing to do with it.

On many other posts he rails against the "gubmit" but then links to the Surgeon General who says those 30,000 deaths MAY BE attribution to obesity, which in the parlance of science means absolutely nothing.

I agree though, if you are going to be hateful just fucking own it.
20
*attributable
21
@19.. dag.. i fed a troll. a fat troll . i fed a fat troll. oh, the humanity !
never again, though. thanks
22
@21: Eh, no worries, it happens to all of us. Those of us who don't spend our entire lives on comment threads can get thrown off by those who do--having no life allows time to turn trolling into a fine-tuned craft.
23
"I think these girls are might just be upset because they are too fat to be strippers. "

Man, you are just a cliché of every South Park Republican, aren't you? Herp derp feminist ugly something something Andrea Dworkin.
24
Dagard dear, forgive me. I got Deja Vu confused with Fantasy Unlimited.

Although back in the 90's Fantasy Unlimited was located approximately where Deja Vu is now, so I'm not entirely senile. The entire NE Corner of First and Pike was a cesspool of vice. It was wonderful.
25
@24 - Do get out more, dear. The Lusty Lady is now just a sign. The really creepy upstairs peep-show / used magazine store / petri dish is now a Hard Rock Cafe. Fantasy Unlimited has a real Washington State titty bar downstairs and the porno theater closed years ago.

You remember the Apple Theater, of course. (now a tattoo shop and tax-payer) I believe these protesting ladies should use "Remember the Apple" as their rallying cry.
26
"if you are not fighting the war on women, you are condoning it."
Guilty! I won't be harassing people at the bus stop, so I obviously hate women. I'm also against war in the Middle East, so I obviously want the terrorists to win.
27
"It feels like the instigators chose popular targets for controversy and then manufactured their rage, rather than launching a protest with the goal of a specific change."

From the instigators of Stop Patriarchy:
We've been on the streets in Seattle talking to hundreds of women in the past few weeks who not only get what we're saying, but start pouring out their stories of abuse by repressive religious institutions, by the global sex industry, and by men growing up in a pornified culture. When we say the institutions of Mars Hill and Deja Vu/Showgirls both want women on their knees, just in different ways, it resonates with them. They've been waiting for a vehicle that calls it all out and makes the connections and they understand our specific goal: To END the enslavement and degradation of women in all its forms.

We didn't "manufacture" the fact that Deja Vu/Showgirls sells women and that their shop's videos sexualize violence against women and treat women's bodies as things to be used for the sexual pleasure of men. We didn't "manufacture" that pornography has become increasingly violent and degrading towards women with popular themes such as gang rape, racist bigotry, and incest (such as “Chester Molest Her” - a film sold at this porn shop) We didn't manufacture the fact that this is all intertwined with and fuels sex trafficking and a global epidemic of rape. So we ask you, where is YOUR rage? This shit isn't society becoming more comfortable with sex. This is society becoming saturated with the sexualized degradation of women. As our surprisingly popular sticker says, "If You Can't Imagine Sex Without Porn, You're Fucked."

"Um, what?"

It's not that complicated.

"What about the women employed by DeJa Vu who might actually like their jobs and see their jobs as a source of empowerment?"

They should come to the protest too, because many of them are well aware that their own personal feelings or experiences don't change the fact that women as a whole will never be free until the abolition of the global sex industry--which dehumanizes, degrades, tortures, exploits, traumatizes and brutalizes millions of women and very young girls each year. What about supporting those women, the vast majority? Why not call the Organization of Prostitution Survivors for comment, or better yet, come to the protest and hear their founders speak. If you're not willing to touch this reality, you have no right to say you're against patriarchy.

Women are not things. Women are not objects to be used for the sexual pleasure of men NOR are they breeders of children. Women are human beings capable of full equality in every realm, which includes the right to explore their sexuality free of shame and stigma as one part of their humanity. If you don't get this, then you probably don't get this protest. But if you do, be there with us as we confront the war on women and bring forward a new generation of people who reject this culture of rape, pornography and hatred of women and LGBTQ people. It's gonna be live!
28
Speaking of hatred of LGBTQ folks, everyone should research Stop Patriarchy Seattle's parent organization, the Revolutionary Communist Party USA, and their long legacy of hatred of LGBTQ folks.
29
@27
I wish I could experience the the bitter oppression of getting paid cold hard cash for taking my clothes off. Being a male the only thing I get if i take off my clothes in front of strangers is arrested. Please take your anti-freedom morality based repression somewhere else, as it is it seems that you would be more at home as a member of Mars Hill rather than protesting them

P.S. I bet you are fat and ugly with poor social skills, that is usually the norm among communist, espesially those who worship BOBA Vakian

@18
Riz I think we are on the same page, I too am against the war on drugs. I think that we can agree that historically the powers that be have made people being unhealthy very profitable, especially among the poor and minority communities. We can both agree that out communities should be healthy, and we should encourage behavior that makes us stronger rather than weaker. I should have been more positive, however sometime ridicule can be an equally effective form of peer pressure.
30
So second wave....
31
Yes, Stop Patriarchy was initiated by Sunsara Taylor who is a revolutionary communist. And we are damn glad she did! She is open about the fact that this initiative is being connected up with a movement for revolution that can end all the horrors people face all over the world. #28 is spewing bullshit lies. The RCP never had a legacy of promoting hatred of LGBTQ people.
There are fools out there whom actually hate the Revolutionary Communist Party because of what they represent. They are fighting for revolution, nothing less and those who love the world as it is really don't want people to engage that. If you believe everything you hear on the internet, and are think the world is just fine as it is then don't look into the actual program and positions of the Revolutionary Communist Party and how Stop Patriarchy is apart of a movement for revolution. But if you think that it is absolutely intolerable that there is no where on the planet for a woman to be safe and that LGBTQ people walk the earth every day with the threat of death and are hated just for being who they , then you should look into it what they actually SAY AND DO! There are plenty of things to talk about and debate based on the actual content and positions of organizations if your serious about changing the world instead of spreading baseless gossip. Get real, the world is at stake.

http://revcom.us/movement-for-revolution…
32
The RCP does not hate LGBTQ people, and if you want to do research you should actually go to the source and consider what the RCP has to say, instead of just going along with anti-communist sentiment: http://revcom.us/margorp/homosexuality.h…

This actually explains what the position used to be, why it was held, and why it was incorrect, and why the RCP changed its position. There is a lot that they have to say about patriarchy, human sexuality, and how humanity can change the whole world so it isn't a horror for the vast majority of humanity- including LGBT people!!! If you're all right with how the world is, if you love the status quo, and this revolting culture, then the RCP's strategy for getting out of all of this isn't going to speak to you....BUT if you HATE the way that people are treated then you owe it to yourself to look into and really think critically about what the RCP is saying.

Furthermore, Stop Patriarchy is not a front group....its a mass initiative that was started, yes, mainly by revolutionaries who can actually envision a world where women are liberated- in the fullest sense of what it means to be liberated, and not just in some narrow sense as owning their bodies, but still being commodified and objectified. It is imperative that the war that has been raging against women actually be fought against, and fought against from the understanding that we can end it! BTW- if you actually took the time to read the Stop Patriarchy call to action, you would note was is being said about LGBT people, and its nothing that would've been said by those who hate LGBT people. http://www.stoppatriarchy.org/call-to-ac…

A front group HIDES their affiliations, in order to cover something up....that is not the case here. Those who are part of Stop Patriarchy from that revolutionary perspective have made clear, and are continuing to make clear those connections. The question really is are you going to look further into this, really think through the questions that you have, really fight to see the reality of what women face every day, and join us in this fight....even as you're still figuring things out? Or are you just going to go along with a world that is a horror for the majority of women, girls, and LGBT people?
33
I bet people just cannot wait to have their sexy times critiqued by the party for ideological correctness or whatever that tl;dr was on about.

Glad to see you guys don't think gay people will just disappear once the glorious revolution finally finishes though!
34
I can just imagine how many women buttonholed on the street by StopPatriarchyNow people are overjoyed to pour out their experiences. Right out on the street, in public, at length. Yes.
35
Rally begins at noon, Saturday at Westlake: Into the Streets for International Women's Day!

From Stop Patriarchy's Facebook page:

Together, we’ll SPEAK the truth about the global war on women and MARCH to politically confront Seattle institutions that promote and reinforce the enslavement and degradation of women.

RALLY Speakers:
Marcy Bloom (El Grupo de Información en Reproducción Elegida, Mexico City and former Director of Aradia Women's Health Center) on abortion rights and reproductive freedom.
Noel Gomez (Organization for Prostitution Survivors Co-Founder and Director of Survivor Services) on surviving prostitution.
Peter Qualliotine (Organization for Prostitution Survivors Co-Founder and Director of Men’s Accountability) on pornography.
Emma Kaplan (The World Can't Wait) on the epidemic of rape in the U.S. military and the relationship between U.S. military bases around the world and the sex industry.
YOU! Speak out!

Protest Mars Hill Church and their "Biblical Marriage" class that teaches real-life submission of women to men, reduces women's role to breeders of children, and demonizes LGBT people.

Protest Showgirls/Deja Vu for selling women and porn--which is not about eroticism and sexual exploration but about sexualized violence against and humiliation of women and girls and helps fuel the world-wide epidemic of rape.

From Delhi to Ohio and Everywhere Else...From the Global Epidemic of Rape to the Escalating Attacks on Abortion Rights... From the Burkha to the Thong...
IF YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING
THE OPPRESSION AND DEGRADATION OF WOMEN, YOU ARE CONDONING IT!

Women are not objects. Women are not things to be used for the sexual pleasure of men NOR
are they breeders of children. WOMEN ARE HUMAN BEINGS CAPABLE OF FULL EQUALITY IN EVERY REALM!

We refuse to accept a world which
enslaves and degrades half of
humanity simply because they are
born female. We are done turning
our heads and making excuses.
We are done swallowing the daily insults and abuses.
We are done blaming ourselves and/or each other.
We are done choking on our rage. We dare to confront this war on women head-on, without fear and without compromise.

For International Women's Day 2013, through our powerful actions around the country – joining with women and men around the world – we will make it known: there is a new movement taking hold, a movement you have to join, a movement that will not stop until all the chains that bind women have been shattered forever.
36
Rally begins at noon, Saturday at Westlake: Into the Streets for International Women's Day!

From Stop Patriarchy's Facebook page:

Together, we’ll SPEAK the truth about the global war on women and MARCH to politically confront Seattle institutions that promote and reinforce the enslavement and degradation of women.

RALLY Speakers:
Marcy Bloom (El Grupo de Información en Reproducción Elegida, Mexico City and former Director of Aradia Women's Health Center) on abortion rights and reproductive freedom.
Noel Gomez (Organization for Prostitution Survivors Co-Founder and Director of Survivor Services) on surviving prostitution.
Peter Qualliotine (Organization for Prostitution Survivors Co-Founder and Director of Men’s Accountability) on pornography.
Emma Kaplan (The World Can't Wait) on the epidemic of rape in the U.S. military and the relationship between U.S. military bases around the world and the sex industry.
YOU! Speak out!

Protest Mars Hill Church and their "Biblical Marriage" class that teaches real-life submission of women to men, reduces women's role to breeders of children, and demonizes LGBT people.

Protest Showgirls/Deja Vu for selling women and porn--which is not about eroticism and sexual exploration but about sexualized violence against and humiliation of women and girls and helps fuel the world-wide epidemic of rape.

From Delhi to Ohio and Everywhere Else...From the Global Epidemic of Rape to the Escalating Attacks on Abortion Rights... From the Burkha to the Thong...
IF YOU ARE NOT FIGHTING
THE OPPRESSION AND DEGRADATION OF WOMEN, YOU ARE CONDONING IT!

Women are not objects. Women are not things to be used for the sexual pleasure of men NOR
are they breeders of children. WOMEN ARE HUMAN BEINGS CAPABLE OF FULL EQUALITY IN EVERY REALM!

We refuse to accept a world which
enslaves and degrades half of
humanity simply because they are
born female. We are done turning
our heads and making excuses.
We are done swallowing the daily insults and abuses.
We are done blaming ourselves and/or each other.
We are done choking on our rage. We dare to confront this war on women head-on, without fear and without compromise.

For International Women's Day 2013, through our powerful actions around the country – joining with women and men around the world – we will make it known: there is a new movement taking hold, a movement you have to join, a movement that will not stop until all the chains that bind women have been shattered forever.
37
27, et al. ho hum, so 1980's.

You're not bringing anything new to the conversation. Yes, indeed, women are still oppressed in the world. But what you forget is that we have made incredible strides over the past fifty years, and it may surprise you to learn that America really is at the forefront of gender/sexuality emancipation, especially states like Washington. What we've learned is that going after sex & sexuality doesn't work. Girls & boys like to play together or w/ each other, and that's great. There are plenty of ways they do so, and as long as it's consensual, it's all for the good. Even if it's prostitution. Because prostitution =/= slavery. Being forced or manipulated into any kind of work, whether it be sucking cock or sewing garments is slavery. (own anything made in China? better check yourself.)

Like I said, your approach doesn't work, and we figured that out about twenty years ago. Get with the times. You want to help? Open up an abortion clinic in Mississippi or Arkansas. Or work w/ legislators to ensure that comprehensive sex education exists in every public school, that kids have free access to birth control and know how to use it. Yeah, that's a lot harder than waving signs outside a strip club, but at least you won't be wasting your time.
38
Wow, is it really that difficult to comprehend a prostitution/pornography critique without equating it with being anti sex? No. Its not.
39
@27 It actually sounds like your group and 'repressive religious institutions' have a great deal in common. Really perhaps you should join forces rather than picket their churches.

So what sort of eroticism is not 'sexualized violence'?

40
Can we protest one and not the other, or are we not allowed unless we equate them?

The list of speakers sounds pretty good. Where are they speaking? Westlake?
41
Ah yes, the “ho hum, that’s SO 20 years ago” approach. Yes, that approach has been so effective. That is why:

• Every day in the United States, four women are murdered by husbands and boyfriends. “Violence Against Women in the United States” National Organization For Women website. Additional references in the online article. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats…
• Every year in the United States, at least two to four million women are battered.
• Every year, approximately 132,000 women report being the victim of rape or attempted rape. An estimated 2 to 6 times as many women are raped, but do not report it. Ibid.
• In Iraq, under U.S. occupation, Shiite militias, empowered by the U.S., patrol the streets of Iraq’s major cities, attacking women who don’t dress or behave to their liking. In Basra, Iraq’s second largest city, 133 women, according to official reports, were killed and mutilated (2007) their bodies dumped in trash bins with notes warning others against “violating Islamic teachings.” Ambulance drivers hired to drive through city streets early in the morning to collect the bodies say the actual numbers are much higher.“Who is Killing the Women of Basra?” Madre website, January 9, 2008.http://madre.org/articles/me/womenbasra0…
• Abortions rights are hanging by a thread in this country.
• Sexual trafficking crisscrosses the planet. Hundreds of thousands of women are kidnapped, coerced, bought, and sold into sexual slavery every year.
• In India there are 400,000 to 500,000 child prostitutes. In Thailand, 800,000 children and teenagers have been forced into prostitution.
• More than half of women in the Reserve National Guard experienced rape, sexual assault, or sexual harassment while on active duty.The Miles Foundation, a public policy institute specializing in interpersonal violence associated with the armed forces. Only 2% to 3% of offenders receive disciplinary action as serious as a court martial. Usually, perpetrators receive only a mild slap on the wrist, such as extra duty or a letter of reprimand. “Does a rapist deserve a military burial?” Los Angeles Times Op-Ed by Anne K. Ream, January 23, 2008.
• U.S. soldiers gang-raped a 14-year-old Iraqi girl named Abeer and then burned her alive, in Neka,
• Every year one clinic in five is the target of extreme anti-abortion violence like bombings, arsons and death threats. And every major anti-abortion group in this country also opposes contraception. Restrictions on Roe v. Wade. http://feminist.org/roevwade/restriction…
• Abortion doctors have been murdered by Anti-abortion, Christian fundamentalists.

Yes, clearly your “ho hum” approach has done wonders for stopping violence against women globally. Tell you what, you just toddle off with your pseudo hipster, “I’m sooooo above it all” , do-nothing approach to what is an epidemic of violence towards half of humanity, and we’ll go out there and change the world. OK? Thanks much.
42
Ah yes, the “ho hum, that’s SO 20 years ago” approach. Yes, that approach has been so effective. That is why:

• Every day in the United States, four women are murdered by husbands and boyfriends. “Violence Against Women in the United States” National Organization For Women website. Additional references in the online article. http://www.now.org/issues/violence/stats…
• Every year in the United States, at least two to four million women are battered.
• Every year, approximately 132,000 women report being the victim of rape or attempted rape. An estimated 2 to 6 times as many women are raped, but do not report it. Ibid.
• In Iraq, under U.S. occupation, Shiite militias, empowered by the U.S., patrol the streets of Iraq’s major cities, attacking women who don’t dress or behave to their liking. In Basra, Iraq’s second largest city, 133 women, according to official reports, were killed and mutilated (2007) their bodies dumped in trash bins with notes warning others against “violating Islamic teachings.” Ambulance drivers hired to drive through city streets early in the morning to collect the bodies say the actual numbers are much higher.(“Who is Killing the Women of Basra?” Madre website, January 9, 2008.http://madre.org/articles/me/womenbasra0… )
• Abortions rights are hanging by a thread in this country.
• Sexual trafficking crisscrosses the planet. Hundreds of thousands of women are kidnapped, coerced, bought, and sold into sexual slavery every year.
• In India there are 400,000 to 500,000 child prostitutes. In Thailand, 800,000 children and teenagers have been forced into prostitution.
• More than half of women in the Reserve National Guard experienced rape, sexual assault, or sexual harassment while on active duty. Only 2% to 3% of offenders receive disciplinary action as serious as a court martial. Usually, perpetrators receive only a mild slap on the wrist, such as extra duty or a letter of reprimand. (“Does a rapist deserve a military burial?” Los Angeles Times Op-Ed by Anne K. Ream, January 23, 2008.)
• U.S. soldiers gang-raped a 14-year-old Iraqi girl named Abeer and then burned her alive, in Neka,
• Every year one clinic in five is the target of extreme anti-abortion violence like bombings, arsons and death threats. And every major anti-abortion group in this country also opposes contraception. Restrictions on Roe v. Wade. http://feminist.org/roevwade/restriction…
• Abortion doctors have been murdered by Anti-abortion, Christian fundamentalists.

Yes, clearly your “ho hum” approach has done wonders for stopping violence against women globally. Tell you what, you just toddle off with your pseudo hipster, “I’m sooooo above it all” , do-nothing approach to what is an epidemic of violence towards half of humanity, and we’ll go out there and change the world. OK? Thanks much.
43
@41 Doesn't seem like any of what you're saying is being disputed here.

What is being disputed is that puritanical condemnations of pornography, stigmatization of sex work and re-enforcing the thoroughly puritanical idea that women are delicate creatures who must have their sacred virtue protected (by feminists instead of the patriarchy though), is in no way empowering women or helping to reduce violence against women, and actually I would argue it is in no way feminist, if feminism is primarily about promoting equality.
44
Meanwhile there is/was an International Women's Day protest against Chihuly. I would have gone, and brought more Chihuly-haters, but their leaflets didn't tell me where, or when ... or why!

And at long last somebody's gotta say it: How do you propose to get ahold of some of those women without agittin' athrowed outta there?
45
@ #40 You should totally come to the rally even if you are not really sure about how both of these sides are equatable to each other. Come and give expression to what you DO find intolerable about the situation for women and decide what you think about the other stuff along the way.
46
@41

The vast majority of the women in the world are still oppressed, no doubt about that. The vast majority of first-world women however live lives of luxury on the backs of others, happily present themselves as property (sex-"work", "no romance without finance" "got to put a ring on it" etc..) and would much rather learn to develop their make-up applying skills, bra sizes, and ability to attract a wealthy mate than to develop their minds and ability to contribute to society (or a revolutionary movement). Even if you took away all other causes of the oppression of women, the manner in which the vast majority of first-world women have internalized the oppression they face would cause and semi-justify it. It is horrible that women face domestic violence, but people will not put up with being exploited by someone who presents herself as property, then someone purchases her (jumps through all the hoop$ she require$), and then she doesn't work as advertised. The answer of course is not to smash the property, but it's what will often happen when she doesn't offer refunds. The vast majority of first-world women do not need anyone's assistance in making it through life, but they choose still to present themselves as property whenever they believe they stand to benefit. They are the owners of the disgusting culture they willfully help create. The vast majority of women in the world however are forced by the capitalist system into doing the will of men in order to just live, these are the women that make revolution necessary, not first-world women who have benefited more from exploitation and consumed more resources than any other group in history.
47
What's to be gained from making it more difficult for sex workers to work? What feminist goal is accomplished by making their lives more difficult, by driving away clients, by dropping their already unreliable source of income?

I don't get groups like stoppatriarchy. It's like they attack everything but the actual problem making the situation worse.
48
So what part of #46 isn't horribly sexist dribble aimed at women in sex work?

Did you know a number actually pursue degrees? And that like the young lady working at the drive thru still deserve respect and to have their life choices respected?
49
Everybody's going on about how misguided the Deja Vu portion of the protest is without mentioning how picketing Mars Hill does nothing but encourage them. Churches like theirs thrive on a sense of persecution and martyrdom. This will keep them going for months.

Of course, telling patrons of Deja Vu that they should feel ashamed for going inside probably just increases the naughty thrill of that place too. Making this protest perfectly counter-productive on every front.
50
@48

I have nothing but disrespect for a woman who chooses to sell herself when there are other options available to her in order to meet her material requirements of life. Women like this contribute a lot to the oppression of women and represent/advance a very $ick and dehumanizing culture.
51
Oh, I get it now!!

Capitalism -- the Deja Vu -- is an expression of money as power over the poor women who have to sell their sexuality in order to live, or study, or whatever.

Religion -- Mars Hill -- distracts the population from their misery and prevents them from revolting against their oppressors.

Sound about right?
52
So is there actually any evidence of a link between strip clubs and an increase in women being raped?

That claim is repeatedly made by feminists who are trying to shut down the clubs. When the women in them stand up for themselves this claim is used to shame them as "gender traitors". But I've never see feminists back it up with anything except theory.

What gets me is that feminists are usually quick to attack people who blame women's actions for causing rape. Saying that a woman was "asking for it" because she was dancing provocatively and wearing the wrong thing is usually seen as utterly anti-feminist victim blaming, and rightly so. Yet when the women are dancing in a strip club it's suddenly OK to bring up rape and start blaming and shaming...
53
Yep, porn leads to child rape and video games lead to gun violence. Because of reasons. And/or science. And/or just because they said so.

Btw: sex workers are real people with real lives. They are not selling themselves, they are selling a service. If idiot anti-sex feminists would stop objectifying and trying to oppress others, maybe they'd figure that out.
54
"rather than launching a protest with the goal of a specific change"

Funny, that's what detractors said of Occupy... It's because the problems are complex and widespread.

I think Stop Patriarchy's goals are fairly clear: They want abortion to be available to whomever wants it, whenever they want it, and without apology. They also want ppl to stop distracting themselves (from achieving gender equality) with hetero-male-centric, violent, and objectifying pornography.

People who watch porn often seem to get into a discussion of how it's not all bad, and some of it is okay, derailing a discussion of what needs to change. While I believe that pornography or the production of it needn't be objectifying, you have to admit that almost all of it is. And when we live in a time that's still rife with oppression of and violence against women (and anybody else who's not a cisgender hetero man), that's worth protesting. It affects those who don't even choose to partake of porn, so it's not just a matter of personal taste.

Consensual sexy times are great (yay!) ...But what internalized messages about violence and objectification are we harboring by accepting the vast majority of pornography as legit? Do we really want our sexual behaviors or desires to be "naughty" or "dirty"? It seems like an unfortunate work-around of our culture's inherited Puritanical disgust of sex... and not actual recovery from it.

Can't we work toward a society-wide view of sex as not only healthy but inseparable from respect, connection, genuine intimacy, or co-creation (not nec. babies), instead of some commodity? You can be sex-positive *and* anti-porn.

I believe that, while Stop Pornography's writers may get caught up in (righteous) anger and urgency, the org's aim is not to demonize sex or the women who sell their sexuality, but to take a pointed look at how damaging porn culture is to all of us—men, women, etc.

It's certainly not a popular stance, and I honestly didn't expect The Stranger peeps to grasp it—what with Hump! Fest and that page with all the stars and phone numbers on it—but I hope you'll keep trying to understand it anyway... instead of doing that privileged bluster thing you guys are wont to do. Please.
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@52: Please include the qualifier 'some'. As in 'some feminists' make these claims. Because these folks sure don't speak for me and my feminism.
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@27 - There is no "global epidemic" of rape. An epidemic is, by definition, something that jumps upward at a fast pace. Rape has not been rising. In the US it has been falling, and worldwide it has always been around. What's different now is that the problem is getting the attention it deserves. I'm very supportive of efforts to stop rape, but I simply do not buy the notion that porn causes rape. There is essentially no scientific evidence linking porn to rape, and some evidence suggests that porn may actually reduce rape.

Studies of men who rape have found that men do not rape because of anything they've been taught. They rape because they lack compassion and want to enjoy domination and sexual pleasure and they think they can get away with it. They are the same kind of characters who commit all kinds of violent crime, and they tend to rape more than once - one study found that uncaught rapists accumulate an average of six victims.

To stop rape, the key is better enforcement. We need to teach police departments to take rape accusations seriously, to collect evidence and test rape kits in a timely manner, and use the testimony of multiple victims whenever possible to increase convictions. Once we actually start putting rapists in jail at a nontrivial rate, we'll have fewer repeat offenses and more deterrence of those who might be inclined to commit these crimes, and therefore fewer rapes.
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Yep, the RCP, friend of women everywhere - because the Chinese Cultural Revolution was *such* a good thing for women and for people in general.
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What does the RCP have to do with the cultural revolution?

Seriously? How could you possibly enjoy democracy? The great depression happened.
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Just curious, does anyone who supports the protest of Mars Hill and their women even know a woman that is a member of that church? Maybe that should be the mission of these women's groups, not just making ignorant accusations against some 7,000 women who attend Mars Hill. I would hardly call these protests "peaceful", but rather, "hateful". I would never join a group of women who makes large judgments on other women whom they don't even know.
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In case someone wants to see video from the event: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zs3I6ISQ…