Remember when Tom Cruise went rogue? Remember how he jumped on Oprah’s couch, attacked Brooke Shields for taking anti-depressants, tore into Matt Lauer, and had that big-eyed starlet lobotomized and impregnated? Remember the damage his antics did to his career and to Scientology, his batshit religion? And remember how Cruise’s behavior empowered critics of Scientology?
I think the Mormon church, with Prop 8, has essentially jumped the couch. There are a lot of very angry, very creative people out there, not all gay, and many of these angry people have long memories and platforms that will allow them to wage asymmetrical cultural warfare against the Mormon church. No Mormon churches should be vandalized and no Mormons should be physically attacked—there should be no violence—but Mormon church had better brace itself for a long period of sustained scrutiny and ridicule.
I don’t think the Mormon church has much to fear from scrutiny and ridicule—the Catholic Church has been subject to both for centuries and they’re still electing popes, baptizing infants, and raping tweens—but the Mormon church has worked to avoid scrutiny because it knows, deep down, that it was founded by a fraud and that the tenets of its faith don’t pass the laugh test. What’s worse, fundamentalist and evangelical Christians who’ve been exposed to the tenets of the Mormon faith typically conclude that Mormons aren’t Christians—all that stuff about God and Jesus being brothers and becoming a God of your very own planet after you die, etc.
So here’s what the Mormon church bought with the $20,000,000 it pumped into the “Yes on Prop 8” campaign: They’ve infuriated homo and hetero creative types who are now going to drag Mormon beliefs out into the public square, mock them mercilessly and at length, which will entertain the irreligious while also exposing Mormon beliefs to fundamentalists and evangelicals who weren’t already familiar with them. This should destroy whatever goodwill the Mormons bought with those gauzy “this message brought to you by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints” commercials—it should also quickly undo whatever political capital the Mormon church thought it was purchasing with the “base” of the GOP, a.k.a. fundamentalists and evangelicals, which should undermine Mitt Romney’s chances of securing the GOP’s nomination in 2012 or 2016 or 2000 and ever.
And remember, Magic Underpants Inc., you started it.
As long as it stays on the side of ad verecundiam, with not too much ad hominem. Gotta stay strong.
43, I think the question is why boycott any states at all, unless you think that will help. And by help I mean something other than making the boycotter feel better about himself.
The twisted logic of the ill-considered Utah boycott could easily be extended to say that the entire world ought to boycott the United States because of Prop 8.
first they killed christmas, then they attacked my underpants. woe is the mormon! forever persecuted!
I love me some hot mormon ass! Cute, blonde, wide-eyed missionaries are the best for having kinky gay sex!
It is unbelievably sexy when I peel off their magic undies, but sometimes they look really, really sad when they are buttoning them back up afterward…
@16 adrian ryan, you should definitely start your own big gay religion. free money! fight fire with fire, gays!
@48 – I think this is a good idea. According to Joseph Smith the Book of Mormon is only one third of what was on the Golden Plates and it doesn’t mention anything about homosexuality.
We just need to get ahold of the Angel Moroni to show us where he put the plates after he got them back from Joseph. Maybe that “Sealed Portion” that we have yet to see will restore the “Doctrine of Same-Sex Marriage” to the Church.
we could always see my high school math teacher’s special undergarment through his flimsy white dress shirt while he taught us trigonometry. it looked…vintage. but i didn’t know about the nipple emblems until right now, so for that i thank you, mr. petersen. it could have been worse.
“Top of the Temple, Moroni speaking…?”
Glad to finally get validation for what I’ve been doing for years, which is give the Magic Underpants boys an earful when they make the mistake of ignoring my “No Solicitors” sign. As the Mor(m)on Cult tracks and attempts to contact all those who leave the church, they might track all those who have no interest, and leave them off the “visit list”.
Proposition 8 is just one more really good reason in the long list of reasons to hate the Mor(m)on Cult.
No religion passes the laugh test, that’s what makes it religion and not science. But the comparison to Cruise’s couch jumping antics is pretty apt.
I seem to recall an illustrated, comic-book style representation of Mormon beliefs. Does anyone have a link?
Mormons finally allowed blacks into the priesthood, saying they would “become white and delightsome.” I wonder what gays turn into. They’ve already cornered the market on delightsome.
@60 – That’s all over YouTube. Just search “banned Mormon cartoon.” It’s from an old anti-Mormon film called “The Godmakers.”
I will say however that it is totally SENSATIONALIZED and in some cases completely inaccurate about Mormon doctrine. It’s not trying to be objective, it’s trying to make their beliefs look crazier they really. In my mind that’s unfair, unkind and completely unnecessary.
I really hope that the gay activists take the advice of Dan Savage and try to take on the LDS church. The LDS church is a well organized powerful world religion and the gay community is a bunch of whining babies that don’t take to kindly to Democracy or old ladies with crosses. Honestly do any of you guys and gals in the gay community really believe you could do anything to negatively affect the LDS church short of violent acts? Bring it on.
@49
just go grab yourself a copy of “Mormon Doctrine” by Bruce McConkie at your local used book store. The older, the better. The 50’s versions are hard to find, but they had all the really horrifying stuff in them, but the more recent editions will still have plenty to keep you in stitches.
Dan: I am LDS (Mormon), and I have many gay friends — inside and outside of the church. I am aware of and sensitive to their concerns on this matter, and they are — in the end — my friends. I love and care about them and take the time to hear them out, discuss, gain perspective, get correction, and we live together as friends should. We disagree sometimes, all friends do, but I don’t excise them from my life and disrespect them for having a point-of-view.
Do you, Dan, have *any* LDS (Mormon) friends? Have you ever taken the time to have an honest, non-confrontational conversation with someone you know, love, and trust about her church, her faith, her reasons for belonging to that community? Reading a little bit of your vitriol, I fear that you have not, and I would hope that you could have the opportunity to do so.
“We” are not this “other” that you so enjoy villifying and portraying (and profiting from), just as “you” are not this “other” that is homogenous and single-minded. I would hope that you could show some civility and seek some understanding, rather than simply taking the easy, uninformed road of writing vitriolic mumbo-jumbo.
@65: here here!
@65: Vitriolic mumbo-jumbo is a great phrase. Would that be like when you claim that God is forcing you to support and fund attempts to suppress other people’s rights? Or that, gosh you’d love to help out all your gay friends, but there’s an important mystical, theological reason why you can’t, and it’s not open to discussion because who are we to question (what church leaders assure us is) God’s will?
Like that kind of vitriolic mumbo-jumbo?
To #65:
I can’t speak for Dan, but I know and have known many Mormons. You will notice I don’t use the word friend, they do not see me as such, nor I them. As a gay man, they neither trust or accept me. Ultimately it comes down to tolerating those that are different than yourself, but if it tolerance isn’t recieved, one shouldn’t expect to get to be given it.
@65 – Dan is my friend and I’m still technically LDS. His colleague David Schmader has married into his fellas accepting LDS family. But that’s not what this is about.
Dan Savage and the gay community in general didn’t pour money into a campaign to restrict the rights of Mormons. Mormons did pour money to take restrict the rights of gay people.
Why don’t Mormons want gay people to marry –
Short Answer: “The Prophet tells me so.” And when the Prophet speaks, the discussion is over.
Long Answer: I guess because they think that their religious mythology is more important than the lives of real gay families like my partner and I or Dan and his boyfriend and son. They would rather the law reflect what they think other people should do than allow people to choose to do something with which they disagree. They don’t want their kids to be aware of the existence of gay couples because they fear that their kids will then think it’s ok to “choose a gay lifestyle.” Basically it’s like Lucifer’s plan in the pre-existence that people would be forced to obey God, rather than having Free Agency to choose right or wrong. The LDS church sided with Lucifer’s plan on this one.
BTW – Here is a great Children’s song they taught as in church; it’s very popular still today:
(chorus)
Follow the Prophet,
Follow the Prophet
Follow the Prophet,
Don’t go Astray
Follow the Prophet,
Follow the Prophet
Follow the Prophet,
He Knows the way.
(Final Verse)
Now we have a world where people are confused.
If you don’t believe it, go and watch the news.
We can get direction all along our way,
If we heed the prophets– follow what they say.
@67: the church does not force it’s members to fund such propositions. Members’ tithings are never used for political reasons. Members make donations if they wish to support something.
@70: You are splitting hairs. Members’ tithes fund an organization that is engaged in political campaigning. Even if their tithing is not going directly into the campaign fund, it is still helping to facilitate the organization’s overall activities. My understanding is church members have essentially no say in how the Mormon leadership choose to spend that money and little expectation of disclosure. Additionally, one lends one’s tacit support simply by attending even if one refrains from active participation.
Nobody is legally compelled to join a religion in this nation. If someone’s chosen church preaches something with which they strongly disagree, they are free to leave. Conversely, if they willingly stay they can expect to be called to account for the actions of that church, since those actions represent the collective actions of its members.
@62 — Thanks, but the one I was thinking of isn’t a video. It’s more like a graphic novel, with many pages. As I remember it, it contained references to Mormon source material showing the origin of the strange things depicted in the drawings. Definitely not a sympathetic portrayal.
@72 – Ok, I had that when I was a kid. It’s a children’s reader that covers the whole Book of Mormon. I’m pretty sure it’s still available in almost exactly the same format, weird drawings and all. It’s available from Mormon bookseller Deseret book.
I don’t recall that it’s an official publication of the Church, but it’s very popular. I would say a high percentage of Mormon kids grew up with that book.
@72 – Sorry, I just read your comment more closely. I guess I don’t know what you’re talking about.
Jordan @47 –
I promise I’m not trying to be dense here. I just don’t understand… Exactly what has Dan ruined? And what do you have to work at fixing?
I do understand about having to ‘get along with people’, but I’m thinking most Mormons don’t even know Dan exists. Does he really have that much impact?
(Admittedly, I’m one of the many who really wants to *lash out* at the ones who’ve hurt me. We tend to be Dan’s cheerleaders. At least for the moment.)
75, Dan’s ruined the atmosphere of good faith that’s necessary for building a broad consensus in favour of same-sex marriage.
I’m sure you’re right that most Mormons don’t know who Dan is – but let’s not forget they are less than 2% of California’s population. Let’s remember that, in order to move this forward, we have to convince a good number of people that what we’re asking for is just. Let’s further remember that Prop 8 was stacked in our favour, thanks to what I’d call status quo bias, and that in order to get an affirmative proposition passed in a future election, we’ll need to get a whole lot of people to change their mind about gay marriage.
Given those parameters, lashing out wildly is not just stupid and annoying, it actually does considerable damage to long term prospects.
Put another way, simply imagine yourself in the shoes of one of the people who might have voted for Prop 8, but is a good target constituency to be in favour of gay marriage in the future. Would you be convinced by Dan’s harangues? Or would it merely convince you that you were right to support the proposition all along?
** Would you be convinced by Dan’s harangues? Or would it merely convince you that you were right to support the proposition all along? **
That’s hard for me to answer… except among my many talents, I’m a great dog-trainer. And I know that by trying to force a dog to do something, I’m likely to reinforce his tendency to fight back and refuse.
So, yes, Obama is right to seek common ground – and gays might be better served that way, too.
I was fortunate enough to see all Dan’s public appearances last week. He seemed quite reasonable to me and I don’t think his behavior would provoke that attack response.
Tony Perkens was as rude as he could be and blaming Dan for daring to speak. The only other person who seemed to be upset with him was the preacher who was blaming gays for the problems AA’s have in their marriages. (A totally unreasonable argument.)
I think that in another month or so, most of us will be ready to get on your bandwagon. Maybe not Dan, but most of us.
76, Dan’s done what? All by his lonesome? Just by interrupting Anderson Cooper and doing a really good impression of someone whose actual family is actually being threatened.. Oh yeah. His actual family is actually being threatened.
Congrats on your good work in Canada. Yes, consensus building is important. Maybe some day about twenty years from now there may even be a pro-same-sex marriage consensus here in Georgia. In the meantime, Dan Savage is a breath of fresh air.
I used to be mormon. My entire family and some of my friends are still mormon. I love them and many of them were not happy about the letter read in church that directed members to support prop 8. They are great people in many ways, but the mormon apologists need to shut the fuck up, because they don’t know what they are talking about.
First, their beliefs really are that crazy. I think the racist stuff (native americans will become white and delightsome when they repent and return to god!) is so much worse than the weird underpants and the becoming gods and goddesses of your own worlds stuff. The history of polygamy and their complete unwillingness to deal with that history is also disturbing.
Mormons that disagree with the church on this issue will sit by and let the church wage these campaigns against gays just like they did when blacks were not allowed as full members of the church. They are slaves to the prophet. It is time to make them uncomfortable. I am sick of their complacency and blind faith in things that they know are wrong. Being sweet with them about this issue just allows them to smile and make excuses for the church. Confronting them puts them in a difficult place and creates the chaos that change requires. I am going to keep pushing my family and friends on this one.
78, I’m not sure how Dan’s family is actually being threatened, unless he lives in California. In fact, for a great majority of the marchers, there wasn’t anything personal at stake. It was highly symbolic for the most part.
Let’s also remember that, presumably, the common goal is to advance and protect gay rights in the entire country, not just in select spots here and there. Pulling the trigger too early might backfire. That’s what an idiot like Gavin Newsom doesn’t understand. And Savage doesn’t appear to either. One day, we’d like to see gay marriage enacted in Utah as well – surely that’s not going to happen if we start some kind of pointless war with the LDS church.
I forget- do I live in a FREE COUNTRY? Can I support ideas that follow my conscience- at the very core? So, because i think different than no on 8- I am wrong? How intollerate of you. Any church can state what it says in the scriptures. They can tell members to vote. I know that gay people have more TOLERANCE than yes on 8 people, right?
I am embarrassed for the people I see in the protests. Acting like they do does not help your cause. INTOLLREANCE!
Heidi
There is a comic-book version of the Book of Mormon, the book Mormons see as a companion to the Bible and believe to be translated from the plates Joseph Smith found: http://www.wwrn.org/sparse.php?idd=6100
Like all religions, Mormons have some weird ideas (to throw in a couple more: they believe polygamy still exists in heaven, which means according to the church, my divorced and remarried Mormon parents will live together after they die. Fun! And they also believe in baptism for the dead, allowing people to become Mormon after they die – goes over really well with Holocaust victims’ families).
But focusing on their oddities, however entertaining, does miss the point: who cares what they believe? What matters is their efforts to take away rights. And for this reason, focusing on any religion’s beliefs is missing the point. The point is, we have to fight against ANYONE who wants to deny rights. The question of marriage is a legal/civil rights question. ANY religion should have no part in determining who gets rights. That is unconstitutional. We should advocate in those terms, which I think are much stronger than the “religions are wrong about this” argument. The Catholics are wrong, the Baptists are wrong, the Mormons are wrong, and the legislators and communities that deny these rights are wrong. But most important, the laws are wrong.
The solution that would be legal and constitutional would be: civil unions (call it marriage or whatever) for everyone (gay or straight) who wants to create a family unit, recognized by the government. Religious marriage performed in whatever church to whomever that church sees fit to marry – those marriages having no bearing on the status of the civil union (whatever you choose to call it).
Like rights for women and people of color, I expect this will happen first on local levels, then regional, then finally will be written into federal law. California is but one battle – the real target as I see it is the federal level. And that will take a long time. Gird your loins, people! Keep on suing!
@81 – What are you talking about? If you think differently on prop 8 we will think you’re wrong and you will think we’re wrong. It IS a free country and that’s how it works.
When someone thinks someone else is wrong – just like many gay people thought Prop 8 was wrong and the LDS church was wrong to support it – they are allowed to say so. How is this anti-free speech or anti-tolerance?
The organized gay and progressive communities have made no attempt to curtail the religious freedoms of Mormons. Mormons have made many attempts to curtail the civil rights of gays and lesbians. In other words, gays tolerate Mormons but Mormons don’t tolerate gays.
What is your definition of “TOLERANCE?” In my mind, it means that as long as someone is doing you no harm, you live and let live. What harm does same-sex marriage do to Mormons? None. You don’t have to change your beliefs. You can’t get arrested for preaching against us, just like the KKK can’t get arrested for preaching hate against blacks and Jews. You don’t have to marry us, just like you don’t have to marry anyone you don’t want to now.
Religion, which is a total matter of choice, is protected in this country. Even if you believe, (despite all the evidence to the contrary,) that being gay/lesbian is a choice, it is equally deserving of protection. You have the freedom to marry and live how you see fit. It is not “INTOLLREANCE”(sic) when we ask for the same thing. It is not “INTOLLREANCE”(sic) when we decry those who will deny it to us.
Please seek the tiniest bit of empathy and imagine yourself in the shoes of a gay/lesbian family for a moment. We just want the same things as you. We want our families to be protected and to be treated with dignity. That’s all we’re trying to get you to understand. We not trying to change your beliefs. We’re not even trying to make you accept us. We just want to be treated equally by the government of which we are all citizens.
First off, picking on the Mormon religion for being looney is like picking on Coke for not being as good as Pepsi. All religions are namebrands, and all have their totally batshit beliefs. (Magic underpants are anymore goofy than a virgin birth, a burning bush or seeing 72 virgins after you die?) What gives them credibility is a group of people agrees to follow them.
But I guess i also view gay marriage with a bit of skepticism. I am under no impression whatsoever that gay marriage is going to give us equality – and, frankly, I don’t care, as a gay man, if I receive it from the straight world. Yes, I completely agree we should have the same legal rights, but I can’t comprehend the entire backlash against Prop 8. Your love with a partner isn’t compromised because some dipshit preacher tells you it is wrong – no more than you being gay was compromised by it.
I find it, in some ways, offensive that after spending decades thinking being gay was wrong, and I needed to be “straight”, that gay leaders are once again telling me I need to assimilate myslef more into the straight world to find acceptance. I am happy I accepted being gay, and don’t need the term “marriage” attached to a relationship to validate it or my sexuality. If the heteroes want marriage – let them have it. We are creative enough to start our own unique tradition, one that heteroes, one day, might want to copy.
@81: Are you drunk?
Have you ever seen the South Park episode on Mormonism? It’s called “All About the Mormons”. Go here to see it. You’ll be laughing for days.
http://www.southparkstudios.com/episodes…
@84 – It’s easy to say that marriage doesn’t matter if it isn’t something your personally seeking. For those of us with families in need of the same legal protections as straight families, it definitely does matter.
It’s not about “assimilating” into a more “straight lifestyle.” It’s about having access to the equal legal protections from the government of which we are all citizens.
You’re right to choose not to get married is taken away when the choice of whether or not you can marry is put into someone else’s hands.
84–i felt the way you do for decades. But when there’s someone you’re nuts about, and want to spend every day with, but you’re a US citizen and they are not…
Suggestions?
No?
OK, to take the long view…it would be great if any two people (or more) could commit to each other as “family”–not limited only to romantic love partners. By backing that up with legal requirements for financial support (for 10 or 20 years, no matter what), a US citizen could legally bring any such “family” into the US. That would be lovely. But y’know, for all my friends who are 30-, 40-, 50- or 60-something, and still trying to make long distance relationships work, BECAUSE THEY DON’T HAVE A CHOICE, pushing for marriage (or truly marriage-equivalent unions, not some watered down crud) seems like a fine way to go.
You, of course, will always be welcome to not use the option, if it does not apply to your life.
Dan, you made some very good points re the Mormon Church. Whatever our disagreements with these bigots, it must NOT degenerate into violence. I can understand the anger, I am angry too, but any violence will only play into the hands of those who hate us.
As for tax exempt status for religions who engage in the political process, I agree, it should be removed. If they’re going to take stands, endorse or condemn candidates, then they have to be treated like any other organization.
Hate & intolerance, the very thing the gay community claims it has been a victim of lo these many years … now they turn it on a wacky religion and call it “activism” … a “movement”? Who cares if people want to wear magic underpants or demonize psychiatrists? Isn’t that still allowed in this country? Myself, I consider reading Dan Savage a religious experience. But that’s just me. I don’t care what floats a Mormon’s boat as long as I can have my own boat. And gays will be able to marry, but like all struggles, it takes time and small steps. John Lennon, please reincarnate soon and write a new song for Minds That Hate …