If I’m not allowed to say it in my column because some people believe and they’re sensitive…
…is this guy allowed to have it tattooed on his chest and run around Madison Beach shirtless? What if one of those sensitive believers happens to be on the beach?
UPDATE: “Geeze,” writes Very Bad Homo in comments, “at least give us some nipples.” Here you go:
WAS IT MAGIC SAND THAT YOU CAN NEVER REMOVE?????????
I don’t know if there’s a god or not, but I do know that more pictures of hot, furry, manly chests are always welcome!
Thanks for the disembodied nipples.
Why is that font the de facto choice for tattoos lately? It’s painful on the eyes. The formula for Coke could be written out and I would still stop trying to decipher it about two words in.
That black bikini is AWESOME.
51 – as a Pagan practicing various forms of “magick” and energy work, I find that they are VERY in sync with some of the most cutting-edge discoveries in quantum physics.
The letter-writer came across as a pretentious dipshit who’d be better off filling up Moleskines with crappy poetry, losing his religion, and then joining a Radical Faerie commune somewhere in southern Oregon. He deserved the mocking tone he got in response from Dan.
The tattoo in the photo is great, but not as good as “Your Dad’s Name”.
If I could I’d offer you a tissue so you could wipe your tears away and stop crying.
You’re allowed to say god isn’t real or anything, you’re allowed to do whatever or say whatever you want – you don’t need anyone telling you otherwise. Just be prepared to take responsibility for the things you choose to say. So, when you attack someone for making a choice based on their belief in a greater being, be prepared to be flamed for doing something those crazy religious nuts, that keep saying gays shouldn’t marry, do.
Having fun, Dan?
Why does Dan owe anybody sensitivity exactly? Because he’s an advice columnist? With a reputation for being anti-religion and blunt as fuck? In fact those are two of the reasons that many of us love him most. Well, and his advice is good, but also BLUNT AS FUCK.
And really, it cracks me up the “you could have said it more sensitively” boo fucking hoo! Because it would mean something different? Because it would have ‘seemed less offensive’ puh-fucking-lease people.
The whole thing is ridiculous and tiresome. Get over yourselves. Or become advice columnists and do it differently yourselves. I am sure that the tagline “Dan Savage, without that honest, blunt, bite” will work well for you.
@42 Said, “…trying to shove their “THERE IS NO GOD!” dogma down people’s throats…”
This is so far off, I don’t think you’re reacting to anything any atheist has actually said. Saying a very simple concept out loud is not an agressive act.
Do a little thought experiment. Substitute ‘god’ with ‘unicorn’. There is precisely equal reason to believe in god as there is to believe in unicorns. Why does god get so much special treatment? It’s because you feel so strongly about God, and base so much of your life off of belief in him, but both concepts are equally absurd to a non-believer. So an atheist isn’t shoving anything in your face by stating that there is no god, because there’s no good reason to believe in god. It’s not dogmatic. It’s a demand for some kind of proof before believing in something as huge as god. Just like you would demand proof from someone that believes in unicorns. They’d get mad at you for shoving anti-unicorn dogma down their throats.
Also, Dan’s response was compassionate. The guy’s life is going to be ruined by a delusion. He should get help dispelling the delusion so he can find happiness. Helping this poor gay guy get past his belief in God is the best way to lessen his suffering and lonliness.
61 – Yeah, you’re either ignoring every point I’m making or unable to comprehend them. Have fun with your strawmen.
@1, I was at a Wales v England rugby test once and refused (like the good republican I am) to stand for “God save the Queen”. All well and good until I decided (through a mixture of laziness, apathy and beer-soakedness) also to sit through the Welsh national anthem. A crazy Welshman wanted to leather the shit out of me. Being a pig-headed Australian dickhead I refused to back down and it nearly got ugly. I realised sometime afterwards that it may have been a tad disrespectful (not to mention foolhardy – those Welshman are crazy), but for fuck’s sake…
Before getting anything tattooed on your chest (or back) you should really think about what the people having sex with you are going to think about it while you’re having sex. Do you really want to be pushing Atheism right when you partner is most likely to be shouting “Oh god!, Oh God!” even if s/he is a non-believer?
It’s not as bad as some weird Twin Towers tribute or something, but it’s still out of place.
@60 – Dan is an asshole advice columnist, but he’s still an advice columnist. His normal M.O. has always been to be an asshole, but to be a HELPFUL asshole. If he was just being a dick for the sake of being a dick, he wouldn’t be nearly as popular or influential as he is. His column is read and loved by many (including myself) because most of the time the stuff he says in a dickish, blunt, cut-through-the-bullshit way is truly helpful, more so than anything that could be said in a polite, sensitive, considerate way could EVER be.
But telling a Christian that the answer to all his problems is to stop believing in God? Not helpful, and I’ll tell you why: believing in God is not actually this guy’s problem. This guy’s problem is that he listens to what other people tell him about the universe and lets himself by lead by the nose rather than thinking for himself.
So what does Dan do? Well, initially he does exactly the right thing by giving the guy a few facts and considerations that will help him to think critically and question. But then, he sticks a big, fat atheist proclamation at the end of it. This is not wrong because of anything being wrong with Dan’s point of view, but because this was just another attempt to tell the guy what to think.
There are plenty of people in this world who can believe in a God (Christian or not) without feeling a need to tell themselves or others that they can’t be who they really are and be happy. There are also atheists who are anti-gay.
So all you atheists on this thread arguing about why God doesn’t exist…you’re really missing the point, here.
None of you will agree, but… the tattoo is perfect. I have 9 reasons why, if you’re interested (but I’m sure you’re more interested in why it’s NOT).
(BTW, I believe in God, SAII). Can I expect you to disbelieve in me, for my virtual hello?
Now, you have me wondering why it’s perfect, Michael. FWI, I didn’t like it because it distracted me from admiring his chest, which has nothing to do with what it says.
I do not care for the tattoo, after all you live in a democratic country…
But hey those nipples are inexistent… dommage
Hey, I think I know the thug that did this guy’s tattoo. He belongs to the graffiti crew 3A. Must be why the tattoo is prison fare and looks like crap.
@65 I was not arguing one way or another whether or not people should believe in God, nor do I feel that is my place to say. I don’t care if people want to believe in such things as long as it effects only them, but if they seek my advice on something related to religion I would not hold back that there is no God just to spare someone’s feelings. Whether or not I say it does not change how they feel about it anyway.
Dan throws lots of dickish proclamations at the end of lots of his pieces of advice, and this particular dickish proclamation is no different as it is part of the advice “there is no God, so you don’t have to worry about what ‘He’ thinks of your homosexual feelings”
The problems that people have with his proclamation is merely that they either don’t agree with this and therefore find it offensive, or that people demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion. His method was not out of the ordinary for Dan, it is just the subject matter that everyone is whining about.
The advice seeker is not a child, it’s not like accidentally saying “there is no Santa Claus” in front of your 4 year old nephew. This person is an adult, looking for adult advice.
The guy asked for Dan’s advice, why should Dan hold back any part of it? Saying that “there is no God” was part of his advice. Whether he said it in a dickish, condescending manner doesn’t really matter as that tends to be how Dan delivers LOTS of his advice.
And the advice seeker straight up said that he knew that Dan was generally anti-religious and what not, so somehow I doubt he was looking for a holy answer.
“The guy asked for Dan’s advice, why should Dan hold back any part of it? Saying that “there is no God” was part of his advice. Whether he said it in a dickish, condescending manner doesn’t really matter as that tends to be how Dan delivers LOTS of his advice.”
Thanks for stating the bloody fucking obvious. My point is, it’s not good advice because belief in God wasn’t really the guy’s problem.
And before you start with the spiel about, “Well, if you don’t like Dan’s advice, go elsewhere, blah blah blah…” We’re free, I think, to criticize Dan’s advice. He sure as hell devotes plenty of time to criticizing the advice of other columnists. The point is to develop our dialogue, and Dan has shown himself on numerous occasions to be open to criticism and to changing his approach to things as a result.
So excuse me if I think it’s okay to say, “Look, Dan, I don’t think you needed to proclaim God’s nonexistence to this guy because that’s not really going to help him and I think you said more because this is your personal crusade.”
Regarding this:
“The problems that people have with his proclamation is merely that they either don’t agree with this and therefore find it offensive, or that people demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion.”
I don’t see a demand for a “ridiculous level of sensitivity.” What I see is a demand for less hypocrisy. If you don’t like having theism and statements about God’s existence shoved in your face, you don’t get to shove statements about atheism in other people’s face unsolicited – this guy was clearly NOT asking for Dan’s opinion in that regard, I don’t care what anyone says; he was asking, “How can I be celibate?”
As a person of (non-Christian) faith, I really do go out of my way to avoid proclaiming my beliefs to be fact because I find it fucking shitty when others don’t extend me the same courtesy. You can say, “Well, Dan’s an asshole, blah blah blah,” but really, I don’t think “social authoritarian” is the kind of asshole Dan’s trying to be.
@71
I have nothing against calling a columnist’s advice and/or views into question, but I also have every bit the same right to say “hey y’all are being ridiculous and totally overreacting, making something out of nothing, letting your personal values cloud your reasoning, etc.”
Several comments in this post and responses to his previous posts have been along the lines of “you could have said that more sensitively” I would consider that to “demand a level of ridiculous sensitivity when it comes to religion” especially since no one seemed to have any problems with the opening line of “Get over yourself faggot” which would seem more offensive to me if I had to pick between the two statements.
The last line of his response to CAEM was a perfect summary to everything else that he said. It was just one more reason why celibacy was a stupid way for this kid to live the rest of his life. And really it was not that bad at all. He didn’t even say “you’re a child for still believing in God” (which I could then see why you would find offense) AND he was not “unsolicited” this kid was clear that this was about religion. He was also very clear that his friend told him that Dan was “anti-religious.” Dan was provoked and his response was tame.
And, you fail to even acknowledge the possibility that Dan’s statement was, in fact, relevant to his advice. “God is not real, therefore he doesn’t care if you take it in the ass” as I said before, perfect summation to the rest of the advice. Dan doesn’t come anywhere near giving this kid advice on being celibate, and since you felt that he did a good job with the rest of his response, that obviously doesn’t bother you that much, so let’s not kid ourselves here on what the real issue is. You are more than welcome to be offended that Dan does not agree with your personal religious views, but don’t make it out to be something that it’s not.
I will fully admit that I will never see this from your point of view because God is like Santa Claus and the Easter Bunny, you grow up and realize it is a fairy tale, a myth, something that someone told you to make you behave the way they thought was appropriate, so you will never get me to see this as an argument between “belief” systems or whatever. God simply is not real. That does not mean that I don’t believe that people cannot be spiritual, in a sense that they can feel a certain closeness with nature or meditation or whatever, but that is a human creation, a thing in the mind not an explanation of humanity or it’s existence.
So if someone were going to try to tell me that they were NEVER going to have sex because of the existence of God, my initial reaction would be the same as Dan’s “oh it’s okay honey, there is no God, have all the sex you want, just be safe.”
Laurelgardner–
You bring up a really great example of why we _shouldn’t_ treat people’s beliefs with respect, even though we respect their _right_ to hold whatever beliefs they want.
So you believe in magick and energy work. That’s great and all, and you’re perfectly entitled to do that.
But then you claim they accord with quantum physics.
That’s just totally, totally wrong. In fact, science has shown over and over again that things like magick, like astrology, are not real. You’re misrepresenting physics, and if you said to an actual physicist that magick and physics were compatible, they’d be well within their rights to laugh at you.
You believe something that is demonstrably not compatible with what we know about the universe. I respect your right to hold these beliefs, but I can’t respect your beliefs themselves, and I certainly don’t think anyone should hold back from criticising those beliefs. Not criticising _you_ as a person, but your beliefs. It doesn’t matter how much you believe something: that doesn’t stop you from being wrong about it.
@ 42 44 & 65 cheers and I agree with you. Expressing disbelief in God is not itself a problem but the context, in which the expression was made, possibly undid all the previous good advice offered. If the desired result was to help this guy then it was not a good thing to say. If the desired result was to create controversy and a lively dialogue then it was quite effective 🙂
@ 73 I do not believe you are correct. Study of the intricacies of the universe does not turn scientists into atheists except perhaps in the strictest sense of a disbelief in “the old bearded authoritarian dude in the sky.” One of Einstein’s quotes that I believe sums up the spirituality of science best is: “The important thing is not to stop questioning; curiosity has its own reason for existing. One cannot help but be in awe when contemplating the mysteries of eternity, of life, of the marvelous structure of reality. It is enough if one tries merely to comprehend a little of the mystery every day. The important thing is not to stop questioning; never lose a holy curiosity.”
73 – I didn’t say anything I believe is *proven* by quantum physics. I said it’s *consistent.* I don’t think anything I believe is truly proven, or I wouldn’t refer to it as “belief.” Furthermore, there’s a great deal of nonsense within the New Age community that I don’t subscribe to – my beliefs are based on my own experiments (I could tell you more about these if you like, as they’re probably the closest thing to proof that I have, but I’m guessing this thread is about to dissappear from Dan’s blog at any second).
Man, I love, these blue blockers, uh!
73-
Einstein was talking about a sense of wonder at the universe: a feeling, not a belief. If you want to call that “spirituality” go right ahead, but please don’t confuse feelings of awe, beauty, and wonder with specific beliefs that the world works in certain ways. Most scientists reject all active belief in anything supernatural, but are still fully capable of feeling just like anyone else. Feelings and beliefs are not the same thing.
75-
I didn’t say “proven” either. Any form of magick that can supposedly influence the outside world in any slight way is inconsistent with the laws of physics as we understand them from the best available data. If you have experimental evidence to the contrary, that’d be a huge deal and I think you could win a very large sum of money from the James Randi Educational Foundation. You’d want to carefully check your methodology first though. 🙂
devilsmoke, Cory, Julie in Eugene, put on a shirt, et. al. I just really cannot see how Dan‘s original line, including the bit from John Lennon, was that all disrespectful.
It also bothers me how no-one flinches when the situation is reversed: If a distraught atheist or non-theist seeks emotional support from a theist, it’s not considered offensive in the least or being a dick when the response rolls around to well, if Jesus was your co-pilot, you wouldn’t feel like this.
MR. Language Person about a year and a half ago, my non-theist grandmother’s funeral was given the evangelist treatment as it was turned into a proselytical sermon replete with inferences such as Virginia’s going to Heaven; where are you going? My father, a hard-atheist rocket scientist made me swear not to let this happen at his funeral.
Criminy! I wishfully do imagine all the people living for today.
Uriel-238,
I do flinch. Then, I should be honest and admit that I’m an utter failure at evangelism. I can answer people who ask me, but I can’t open my mouth to proselytize. I tried to force it, but it doesn’t work. I guess that I’m not wired that way, and I’m at peace with it now. It feels cruel to dismiss someones feelings and beliefs when they are hurting, I’d much rather offer them a shoulder, hear them out, and brainstorm with them or sit silent with them in their sorrow. It seems that often people want to know that they have been heard more than they want actual advice. They really want to know that they can trust you with their heart.
I feel Kim @ 39 said it best:
“Goodness, Love, all you had to say to CAEM was, “Lastly, kiddo I can’t relate to your struggle, and I can’t imagine choosing a celibate life. You see, I don’t believe there is a God, or a heaven or hell. So, I don’t share your guilt.”
That would have been the decent way of responding. Sometimes I feel Dan forgets that.