Folks were crawling into their tents at about 2:30 a.m. last night and attempting to enjoy their first restful night at Occupy Seattle’s new digs on Seattle Central Community College campus. But a few minutes later, three men walked into the camp and began to Sieg Heil salute. I didn’t see this part because I was in the back of the encampment, but when I got up front, dozens of witnesses said they had kicked out the Nazis, including one man who had the words “Sieg Heil” tattooed on his chin. These weren’t just people dressed up as Nazis for the Halloweekend, they said, but real-deal white supremacists. Not only did Occupiers push them out, several said that other protesters were attempting to hit the Nazis with sticks.
- Occupy Seattle: Nazi-free since this morning at about three
By 2:45 a.m., the Nazis were long gone, but the protesters were angry and fighting among themselves. In a two-hour meeting marked by screaming and additional physical confrontations between Occupiers, many argued that the Occupiers needed to keep out Nazis “by any means necessary” while others seemed reluctant to embrace physically aggressive tactics. And this exposed a certain weakness—at least an unresolved disagreement—that polarized the group. When is force necessary for a nonviolent movement?
The argument for using force, raised by several people, is that many people of color and low-income populations come from communities where the police cannot be trusted to impose order (police officers can make a bad situations worse) so protesters need to take matters into their own hands. Others wanted to avoid physical confrontation. As heat grew, one man in a top hat was being physically pushed out of the campus because some people believed he was a Nazi sympathizer (he’d gotten between the Nazis and protesters with sticks earlier to break up the fight, he said). They were pushing him to the sidewalk and screaming at him while he provoked them back. Police began to watch nervously from the sidelines. One woman then sidetracked the meeting—more of a screaming match at this point—when she asked to see a show of hands of everyone who heard one guy call her a “bitch” earlier. This went on for at least two hours. Some said they needed to send a message that Nazis aren’t welcome and others feared the Nazis were trying to infiltrate their movement.
But as a blogger, I have to say that I don’t think this was an attempt at infiltration but rather one of the most epic acts of trolling I’ve ever seen. In a few minutes, three guys—whether they were actually Nazis or not—who had come to Capitol Hill (the land of faggotry and liberalism) last night to fuck with people’s heads got what they wanted. They managed to send the Occupy Seattle encampment into a tizzy that continues even this afternoon.
This was a growing pain, sure. Occupy Seattle is an experiment in anarchy and self governance, and without set rules about which sort of speech is allowed and which isn’t, they run the risk of getting trolled by any asshole who enters their midst and says something hateful or stupid. But the first time an Occupier defends their “free speech” zone against someone whose free speech is repugnant (like a Nazi) by punching them or whacking them with a stick, then cops are going to get involved and they may get kicked off campus. Not only does that distract them from the issue—Occupy Wall Street is less about the internal politics of a few campers and more about the economy of the 99 Percent—it could force police to end their experiment in self-reliance.
They always upset folks. I’ve never seen them show up anywhere without everyone flipping the fuck out.
On the other hand, they are probably provocateurs… The right wing has been trying to start a false flag by tying the Occupy movement to the nazi party. If they showed up, agitated, left and then got into right wing shmuck drag they were probably able to flee the hill unnoticed.
I hope someone in the UW sociology department is doing a thesis on this.
Non violent means just that. Ignoring them would be an effective solution. Peace!
I will point out that you always see them surrounded by barricades to protect them from the public.
wow. great article dominic. as one of the people in the “no nazi sympathy” camp, I’m not convinced that ignoring the nazis would have been a workable solution, but possibly people could have been less directly violent.
I think the camp would have been in less of a tizzy had people been on the same page. the woman who got called a “bitch” was being called a “bitch by someone because she was yelling at the nazis and telling them to leave.
All nazi drama aside, why are there cops there 24-7? There are more people living on my block than at any Occupy encampment, yet we don’t have cops standing around 24-7. Why can’t the cops do what they do everywhere else and just show up when called? This is nothing to do with anarchism, but just the reality of best using limited city resources.
Massing police only increases the possibility of a confrontation while leaving them alone wouldn’t impact public safety in any real way. If Occupy starts marching, the SPD could always roll some cops over there meanwhile they could actually be doing real police work elsewhere like catching car prowlers and burglars.
“so protesters need to take matters into their own hands. “
If there’s someone raped
In yo neighborhood
Who ya gonna call?
ADBUSTERS!
@7: Hide yo daughters, hide yo wife, etc.
Ah…how well did “just ignore the Nazi’s” work in Germany during the late 20’s and early 30’s? Doesn’t seem very workable.
Who gives a fuck?
This is a story written by a high-school dropout, all excited about covering “happening” news.
He’s the son of a priviliged upbringing, kind of like Lakeside kids who go slumming in Central America to help the poor.
But he’s lazy and does little research and little interviewing.
In the Slog world, however, all that matters is something posted that “Snarf” and “Will in Seattle” can comment on, a couple of losers if there were ever some.
@3 “ignoring them would be an effective solution” i dont think so. do you remember what happened in Germany? in germany, people choose to ignore them which led to the nazis growing in numbers. im going to assume that you are a nazi sympathizer and prefer to have other people in our communities to be terrorize by nazis! fuck you!
@11 your point is ridiculous. Are you really dumb enough to say, “If we ignore the nazis at OS, they will become more powerful and we’ll end up genociding something.” I sincerely hope you’re trolling… but I doubt it.
Anyway it is not the slightest bit surprising that an insular liberal Seattle crowd spends the wee hours of the night yelling at each other in the cold next to a bunch of tents.
The correct solution to the nazis is to ignore them. You got real-life trolled big time. Don’t feed the trolls.
Ignoring someone does not mean you support them.
If these nazi trolls were met by a wall of people not acknowledging their existence, one of three things would happen: 1) they would stay there and not be acknowledged and be part of the 99% like they should be, 2) they will leave, 3) they will do something stupid/illegal to get attention and get kicked out by cops.
You chose option 4: freak out like a bunch of stupid children. Typical Seattle…
They must have been from the sister group “Occupy Poland.”
@13- I just did a spit-take. Well played, sir.
@13, perfection in every way.
The only real problem here is that all the campers weren’t on the same “kick the fucking nazis out” page. This seems like a complete no-brainer. Instead of getting in the middle of things, those who were doing a terrible job trying to diffuse the situation should have just helped herd the nazis out. Just let people scream at the nazis all they want. Ignoring them WILL NOT WORK because they will just creep around, trying to recruit and disrupting things. It is NOT ACCEPTABLE. The only reason things didn’t calm down after the nazis were successfully repelled is that some idiots had some issue with kicking nazis the fuck out of the camp “because they are part of the 99%”. This is the problem with the 99% rhetoric… it is basically meaningless because it lumps together people who are in direct conflict. I can’t believe anyone would question that it was perfectly reasonable to get these fuckers out of there, yes, by force.
You can either be a movement that sometimes uses force, or you can be a nonviolent movement. You can’t have both. If you have even one member of your group that hasn’t forsworn the use of force, then you can’t call it a non-violent group.
This is something they understood very well in the Civil Rights era, and it’s a huge part what people mean when they talk about that movement’s “discipline”.
The American Nazis who turned up last night might indeed be giant trolls, but they did show that Occupy Seattle is not a non-violent protest.
I’m guessing that the gang of protesters with “sticks” have trained themselves how to use them– against cops. There’s a certain subgroup in the anarchist community that’s just itching to relive 1980s Berlin, historical context be damned. And they don’t always wear black hoodies and scarves, either.
How can a rational person equate three provocateurs who are desperate foe attention with Nazi Germany!?! Please!
#12 – yeah ignoring problems works out so well. Read a history book or even a current newspaper and think about how well ignoring problems is working out for most people.
Nazis may fit in our “income bracket” but they are very sick individuals who think terrible thoughts about people and throughout history have done some really fucked up things. Sorry, but there is no place for violent sick clowns in the Occupy movement.
@16, the nazis can only disrupt things as much as the protesters allow them to, and the protesters who do freak out need to take responsibility for turning a little thing into a big one. Like @12 said, they should be allowed in and ignored. Show them how little power they have. That’s how adults deal with ideas they don’t like in a free society.
The fact that the presence of three men saying, doing, and thinking stupid things could create a petulant, two hour argument, is an example of the kind of behavior that makes it very difficult to take the protest seriously.
If grown men and women who were never victimized by nazis freak out at the sight of nazis, they have bigger problems than the growing gap between the rich and the poor.
Dear SLOG commentariat:
There are tactics for dealing with disruptive interlopers beyond “ignore them” and “threaten them with makeshift truncheons.” Some are even non-violent.
Actually, @21 is absolutely right. There’s no reason to not approach nazi clowns and talk to them. Personally, I think it would be fascinating, but I’m really interested in human behavior. And who knows what the result of talking to them might be. You’re a lot more likely to start them on the path of not being a nazi than they are of starting you on the path of becoming one.
The only reason to threaten violence is for the defense against impending or actual violence. Other than that, you’re just being a mini-Cheney.
@6: Are you serious? I’m sure that the parents and families back home of the occupiers are extremely grateful that the police are within yards of doing the job. Thank you very much.
This is delicious.
The huge anti American / pro communist banners currently plastered on the camp doesn’t really help the cause either.
OWS: SEATTLE is pretty much dead as a movement because of the radical anarchist and communist fringe – which are just as bad as the nazis, in my opinion. It’s really a shame they were allowed to parasitically take over the dialogue and make it about their political ideology.
Can the ACTUAL 99% rally and take BACK the protest from radical into government lunatics? Here? Doubtful. Which is why it is destined to flicker and wane until there’s nothing left but the crusty homeless street kids and crazy 1960/1970 holdover commie activists, and SCCC decides that having a homeless camp on campus isn’t ‘lawful protest.’
which is just fine. As it will probably help to get the message on track.
I was in my tent trying to get some shuteye last night when all of a sudden I heard someone scream, “the Nazis are here”. I saw flashing lights and the encampment was getting heated and I wrongly assumed that SPD was there to shut things down. I came out to hear that some actual Nazis had shown up and were being driven from the crowd. Then, I heard one young man arguing quite loudly that if we discriminate against the Nazis, where does it end? He said the 99% were working for the 100%. I’m gay and Jewish and could not believe what I was hearing. This comes just two weeks after SPD tore down my sukkah at Westlake Plaza. I packed up my gear and left because I did not feel safe at SCCC nor do I have any plans of returning to “protect Nazis from discrimination”.
@23: I meant “… of doing their job.”
I prefer pacifism to non-violence. Which is to say, non-violent solutions first and ass-kicking for those who can’t get a clue.
What a fucking moron. I would NEVER put myself between Neo-Nazis and a lynch mob. Call the cops if you’ve got moral pangs of conscience. But don’t risk your life and security for pathetic useless sociopathic scum. That guy’s too dumb to live.
A couple things, 1st, the “reporting”: anarchy and self governance. . .
It is one or the other, not both. What most people assume when a group does not appoint (anoint) a “leader” is that they are nesisarily leaderless. Not true (I’m about to butcher John Gastil’s words here, deal with it), a group that makes collective and democratic rules, norms, and decisions are leaderful (leader-less = no leader, leader-ful = has a leader). If a group, with or without an appointed leader is unable to maintain rules, norms (laws), and make decisions for the group then it is anarchy.
Occupy has a poorly defined set of rules, norms, but does appear to be able to make decisions for the group. So, they are a group, and are hoping to make decisions based on the best information at the moment, even though they have not defined how to express the self realization between “us” and “them” (Natzis). Do they act within the larger society laws that says is isn’t ok to his people with sticks because you don’t like the words coming out if their mouths and their physical proximity to the group members, or not?
You are going to have to make a leaderful decision on what that rule will be or you will sustaing internal conflict that may or may not be so severe that it destroys the group (chaos leading to anarchy).
To be fair to this basic decision, society already has some limits on some kinds of incendiary speech. A group choosing to put limits on acceptable speech is in accord with that.
To be unfair to the choice of violence, bringing in the norms and rules of other groups individuals may be part of as a basis for making a similar decision based on the experience of a similar context is a shortcut to a self imposed stereotype of the rule the police are constrained by.
Accept the fact that Occupy does not represent all of the 99%, and make rules on how to exclude those people and their ideas in a ways that forces the larger society to embrace your rules and norms.
Fwiw, you are now Occupying a space that is not inconvenient enough for the larger society, and you are not embracing the basic norms of the larger society when you take the law into your own hands.
Don’t be assholes.
Occupy OS! This could be a fun game…..
At 1:45 last night, I was in my tent trying to get some shuteye. Suddenly, I heard someone scream, “the Nazis are here!”, and I wrongly assumed it was SPD raiding the tent camp. Turns out, some Nazis actually showed up and were driven out by the protesters. Then, I got to listen to a young man defend the Nazis right to be there saying, “If we discriminate against the Nazis, where does it end? The 99% are fighting for the 100%”. I’m gay and Jewish and could not believe what I was hearing. Gay men STILL hide in the closet and are afraid of being stripped and tied to a barbed wire fence to die in the Wyoming winter. I should welcome them? No, so I took down my tent and left the camp. This comes just two weeks after SPD tore down my sukkah at Westlake Plaza (here is a picture from the Seattle PI) http://www.seattlepi.com/local/gallery/O…
@30, you’re making a false choice between “welcoming” the nazis and using the threat of force to kick them out. There are many other choices. And while the fact that some gay men are still too afraid to come out of the closet and still afraid of being murdered is a sad thing, there are many, many more gay men who have come out of the closet and who aren’t afraid of being murdered.
Fear isn’t always a choice. But not taking responsibility for it, not dealing with it, always is.
@28
As an academic matter, you’re using an individualist theory of anarchism there, which actually is and always has been quite a bit less common than communitarian theories, among actual practicing anarchists.
It sounds like some of the other premises you’re adopting would be rejected by anarchists of all stripes, but I don’t think I’m following your argument very well.
@ 23 : I think 6 is serious. I know I worry every night for the occupiers that are surrounded by police. I wake up at 2 am and 3 am to check on OS to make sure the police haven’t decided to raid them. I wish the police weren’t there so OS could get a good nights sleep and not be kept up by passive-aggressive tactics (megaphoning, kicking tents, shining bright lights, etc.) or so occupiers don’t have to worry every time the police roll a new paddywagon/squad into the area just to sit there for a few hours and then go away… I wish the police weren’t there to avoid when the bike cops surround the area and make sure people don’t sit down with an umbrella or find shelter under an awning as it downpours and soaks people’s clothing through. Shame on SPD and anyone who thinks they are protecting the occupiers.
Also, Mr. Holden – “One woman then sidetracked the meeting—more of a screaming match at this point—when she asked to see a show of hands of everyone who heard one guy call her a “bitch” earlier.”
Since you have taken this event out of context I feel the need to explain. The woman in question was called a bitch because she was very upset (for personal reasons) about the Nazis being in the occupation site and the people who were reacting by trying to claim we should include them. Frankly, in that type of emotionally charged atmosphere anyone who utters that word to a woman is asking for a shit storm, and he got one. To be fair, the young man in question got quite a lot of feedback for his actions and by the end of the night he was clearly upset and very apologetic for his behavior. Not only is there no place for violent racist fringe groups in Occupy Seattle but there is also no place for sexist rhetoric like calling someone a bitch because she is expressing herself with confidence and anger.
I am not a violent person at all but if someone had called me a bitch to my face in that context and under those circumstances I very well may have given him a slap across the face for being so rude and disrespectful.
@31
Might want to take a step back from blaming the victim, yes?
Also, fleeing *is* a means of dealing with fear, and quite often a prudent one.
@13 — almost spit out a mouth-full of salad. lol
There is a white supremacist twitter that RT’s a lot of #OWS tweets. The supremacist twitter agrees with a lot of #OWS grievances; strange bedfellows indeed.
While it does nothing to reform the economy or the tax code, it is kid of funny to watch anarchism fall on its face. At this point the movement seems more silly reality TV than anything.
@17
1980’s berlin sounds pretty good to me if it means hitting nazis with sticks. im assuming your referencing german autonomen.
I never saw the second “Blues Brothers” movie with John Goodman. Was this sort of situation covered?
@ 17
also, anarchists and communists didn’t hijack the movement, moderate democratic zeitgeist fucknuts did.
@35, I wasn’t blaming him for anything. There’s nothing wrong with being afraid. There’s nothing wrong with “fleeing” when one is afraid. But simply because one is afraid doesn’t mean that the fears are warranted. And when one’s fears aren’t warranted, they shouldn’t be used to justify the threat of violence when it’s unnecessary.
That said, of course the nazi’s shouldn’t be welcomed or considered part of the protest. But until they began to be violent or threaten violence, violence is unnecessary and counterproductive in dealing with them.
@ 34 “I very well may have given him a slap across the face for being so rude and disrespectful. “
And yet you were rude and disrespectful to him by not allowing him to express himself, and his opinion that she was BEING A BITCH.
Why can’t he make that observation? because he’s male?
You may now post a screed in reply.
@40
Of course anarchists and radicals didn’t hijack OWS– they planned and initiated it.
But those first core organizers were explicitly non-violent, and went to great effort to marginalize groups like Day of Rage and WWP/ANSWER; groups that refuse to renounce the use of force.
They were able to maintain the commitment to non-violence during the planning phase, before the Direct Action was initiated and while it was confined to one site; clearly, this is changing over time and geography.
I actually think there’s very little danger of establishment liberal organizations co-opting the Occupation; everyone seems to drastically underestimate the core organizers.
I’ve been starting to learn aikido. From this, I am of the opinion that one can be both peaceful and use force–this particular martial art has the aim of restraining and deterring people from violence without causing them any physical damage. This deterrence can be physical, but other means should be tried first.
I wonder what would have happened if someone(s) from the occupy group had asked the Nazi’s why they had come to the rally and what they hoped to accomplish?
If they were there to recruit or try to co-opt people, or to intimidate people, or anything destructive to the movement, then they should have been asked to leave and this backed up with (threat of) force if necessary, though I’d lean more toward asking the police to move them to a separate location as a separate protest (eg: “keep 100 yards of space between your demonstrations” or whatever).
If they were there as ‘part of the 99%’, then it might have been useful to have a discussion with them that, as individuals without other affiliation they are welcome, but when they come loudly identifying as Nazis, that tends to dilute the 99% message because of the risk of media focusing on the fact they are Nazis rather than the primary issues of the Occupy majority. Also, the Nazis must be aware that they are not exactly the most popular movement in the US, so it tends to be destructive for the 99% to be associated with their group.
If they are sincere about supporting OWS and not present as passive-aggressive saboteurs, it would make sense for them to go home, dress down their Nazi affiliation, and come back as individuals to be part of the ‘occupy’ movement here and now. They can do Nazi things at Nazi events, but should do only ‘occupy’ things at occupy events.
They don’t have to hide the fact they’re Nazi’s if someone asks about, say, a Nazi tattoo or something, but don’t proclaim it either. Their response should be, ‘Yes, I happen to be a Nazi but the ‘occupy’ movement is about corruption in banking and government; the two aren’t really related I just happen to be in both groups’.
The troubling undercurrent remains that the Nazis probably equate ‘corruption in banking and government’ with ‘Jewish’, and we all know where that leads.
Do these musings trigger any thoughts of your own?
#42, your opinion is stereotypically sexist and dismissive of reality. Do you really think people want to participate in a movement that permits nazis to speak and lets chauvinist pricks call women “bitches”? that person that called that women a “bitch” and said ” i wouldn’t call you a bitch if you weren’t one” got exactly what he deserved. he was berated until he started crying.
Yes it triggers the thought that nazis killed over six million people because they felt like it.
@45 yeah, well, I think you are being a bitch.
3 people were violently kicked out of OS because of the way they looked? Great job guys!
This is ridiculous. The man in the top hat was NOT a nazi sympathizer. He saw a fight, and tried to break this up. He is a valued member of the occupy seattle movement, and has been a part of several important movements in the past. When I spoke with this individual, he had not been drinking, was just confused about what was going on and now the victim of shoddy journalism. Good job dominic, you’ve misinformed your readers yet again. At the very least, Brendan reports what actually happened. You’ve reported false information as fact.
Nonviolence works best when there is a willingness to kick ass if necessary. Surround them as they are escorted out. If they want to get their asses kicked, they’ll take a swing.
The saying “walk softly and carry a big stick” does not mean the sticks have to be out of sight.
It can stay nonviolent if shit-talking is kept to a minimum. Never tell someone you are going to kick their ass if that’s what you’re going to do. If you have to kick their asses, just do it.
@49
First they came for my top hat….
I’d rather the OWS crowd peacefully surround the Nazis hand in hand, forming a human fence of love that doesn’t let their hate in.
And, when the Nazis eventually leave — follow them, drag them into an alley and beat the shit out of them. Really, they’re fucking Nazis, they don’t deserve better. They choose to idolize genocidal freaks. The world would be no poorer if they walked with a limp for the rest of their pathetic lives.
Pity it would be impossible to sodomize them with a menorah — just the wrong shape.
@34
really? you get called a bitch and you become physically violent? it’s a word. “sticks and stones may break my bones…” and all that goes with it. grow the fuck up.
@ 48
no, they were kicked out for seig heiling and having nazis tattoos. after being confronted and asked what they were about, the older one admitted he was a nazi.
@32, I may be, but not by design.
I am describing group decision making in a group where the isn’t a defined leader.
Here is a description of a leaderful model, and it is consistent with the claims members of the group make about decision making.
http://www.leaderful.org/leaderful.html
Those guys were no more Nazis than Betty White.
@49) Read it again. I didn’t say that he was a Nazi sympathizer. I wrote:
To be clear, I wrote what people said about him, not what he was. I also explained what happened beforehand.
Jesus fucking christ.
Drama is fun.
@50
It’s sort of funny that you pull out a Teddy Roosevelt (mis)quote about building a super massive military force. It’s fun to hate things and then use the rhetoric of those things when you see fit.
Please please please read a book once and a while folks.
Man, this is the best show to hit Seattle since The Producers. Thanks OS, the laughs continue. In fact, you need a new motto:
“They can do Nazi things at Nazi events, but should do only ‘occupy’ things at occupy events. “
Several commenters have suggested just “ignoring” the Nazis as a good option. It’s not a good option, not if you want to build a movement of more than just straight white people. Thank you, @25, for sharing your experience; I’m sure you’re not the only person who felt that way. For a lot of folks, a camp that tolerates (or “ignores”) the presence of Nazis isn’t going to feel safe or welcoming. (Neither is a camp surrounded by cops, by the way.)
The last sentence of the article reads: “Not only does that distract them from the issue—Occupy Wall Street isn’t less about the internal politics of a few campers and more about the economy of the 99 Percent—it could force police to end their experiment in self-reliance.” Typo aside, I have to disagree. To me, the part where occupiers are figuring out how to take care of ourselves and one another, without the aid of the corporations, is much more important and exciting than the part where occupiers hold up signs about the banks and corporations. The signs are nice, but they’re not transformative. What will be transformative is ending our reliance on the banks and corps.
You know that slogan of May ’68, “The boss needs us; we don’t need the boss”? Still true. The endgame here isn’t that the banks read our signs and reform themselves, nor that Congress reads our signs and passes a reform bill. I think it’s something more like taking direct democratic control of our communities and the systems we need to live — a process the occupiers have already begun, albeit on a small scale. Their “experiment in self-reliance” isn’t just a game; it’s building the tools we need to break free.
Also, you don’t “force police” to shut you down. Police decide that their own selves. Just to be clear.
Which reminds me of an old joke…
A Nazi, an anarchist, a Jew and a Seattle liberal walk into an encampment on a community college……..
I’m a lonely asshole so I spend my free time trolling Slog hoping to get attention.
To be completely unfair, he did show some kind of sympathy, but not to their philosophy.
I now consider that hair completely split.
If anyone deserves to be hit with sticks, it’s the fucking Nazis.
Just don’t do it in front of the cameras, folks.
There’s a way to deal with Nazis. Even ones who are doing it for the attention or to take the piss. Just do it before we have to go back to France.
@63 Well my Value village nazi uniform sure worked. Should keep OS occupied and divided for another cold wet month!
“If anyone deserves to be hit with sticks, it’s the fucking Nazis. “
Communists too. They’ve murdered just as many yet get to join the Occupy Seattle camping trip.
If Pol Pot killed 2 million, Mao killed 25 million, Stalin killed 20 million, let alone all the hundreds of thousands killed by communists in insurgencies around the world, why are they welcomed at Occupy Seattle? Why pick on just the Nazis?
No matter how much I stomp my feet and wail no one will pay attention to me. I’m a sad troll.
Sugartit, this is an incomplete list of how many have been killed by capitalism (mostly the US and puppets of the US):
Philippine Insurrection…………….220,000
Guatemala………………………..…
Nanking Massacre…………………..300,000
Iraq Selling Poison to Saddam.300,000
Iraq (Desert Storm)………………….500,000
Invasion of the Philippines………650,000
US War Afghanistan………………..1,200,00
US War Iraq…………………………..1,50…
US Backed Khmer Rouge…….2,035,000
South African Apartheid…………3,500,000
Nazi Holocaust……………………12,000,…
US on Latin America……………..6,000,000
Pol Pot (CIA Puppet)……………..7,100,000
Vietnam War……………………….10,000,00…
British Occupation of India….10,000,000
Japan Occupation of East Timor.70,000
Japanese Bombing of China…….71,105
Second Boer War………………………75,000
Japan Massacre of Singapore..100,000
Burma-Siam Railroad Cons…..116,000
Japan Germ Warfare in China..200,000
Shia Killed by US backed Saddam……………300,000
US Bombing of Yugoslavia……..300,000
US Bombing Iraq Water Supply.500,000
US Civil War…………………………….700…
Iraq-Iran War…………………………1,000,0…
US imposed sanctions on Iraq.1,00,000
US Backed General Suharto…1,200,000
These last two are the most damning:
Native American Genocide.. 95,000,000
African Slave Trade…………..150,000,000
Keep on trollin’!
Loving the communism vs. nazi history surfacing.
@19 maybe you should go read a history book and see how many people got killed under communist rule vs. under Hitler? 🙂
@72: Which just goes to show you: economics = death.
7 million killed by Pol Pot a CIA stooge? Dude, the population of Cambodia in 1975 was 6 million. Try not to pull figures from your ass.
But I do love the logic that communits killed 50 million, but nazis killed 75 million, therefore OS welcomes communists.
@72 Those numbers would be horrifying if there were any truth to them. I think Human Rights Watch estimated 500 deaths in Yugoslavia not 300,000 after the US bombing.
Ok, my cut-and-paste didn’t work so well. I could try again, but whatever. Most of those numbers are accurate.
How many people have been killed by Christians in history? Should Christians be kicked out? No. Most do not espose a philosophy of hate and murder. Neither do most “communists.” A few dictators and assholes in history called themselves communist or Christian or Muslim and murdered people, that does not mean all such people should be denounced because it does not represent their philosophies. Nazism, however, is fundamentally about hate and murder.
“Ok, my cut-and-paste didn’t work so well.”
Yeah, right. I didn’t need to use cut and paste. I used my knowledge. You’re just a cut a self admitted paste moron. Why bother?
So with the millions killed by communists in the 20th century why are communists welcomed at OS?
Yes, troll, I don’t know everything in this world there is to be known, especially ALL numeric facts, unlike you. That’s why you have so much time for trolling.
Some of us are willing to admit to a mistake when called out for it.
Oh, and I already answered your stupid question.
Well trolled.
“Most of those numbers are accurate.”
Except when they’re not, right?
Like the number that says Pol Pot and the US killed more Cambodians than actual Cambodians who existed?
You said it best moron…..
“…but whatever….”
Any half educated moron could look at that list and spot the bullshit. Killing off more Cambodians than there are Cambodians isn’t the only joke in your propaganda cut and paste. You must be a SCCC student….even the Stupid Can Come College.
So riddle me this, if communists killed millions why are they welcomed at OS.
But whatever…..
Can we get some stories on OS’s working groups, where things actually get done? I realize the camping has lots of fun drama due to its inclusive nature and variety of people, but these types of stories don’t paint an accurate picture of what’s happening within the movement.
” Human Rights Watch estimated 500 deaths in Yugoslavia not 300,000 after the US bombing.”
But whatever.
Look, just find 5 or 6 guys walking home from rplace to make out in front of the nazis. They will leave or try to start shit, at which point you “kick they ass. “
@81: Ok, troll, I’m giving you more attention.
You picked out one number (though there are more) that I did not line-up correctly and keep piling on about it. I already admitted it was a mistake. Happy? YOU WON! (Regarding a simple error.)
The point was, and is, that if you want to play the numbers game there is plenty to throw around. Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. were dictators who espoused a very warped version of communism and implemented state-capitalism. There have been plenty of Christians in history who espoused a very warped version of Christ’s teachings and committed genocide, yet no one would dare say that Christians are not welcome at Occupy Seattle. Why? Because hatred and murder is not the actual philosophy of Christianity. (Why do I feel like I am repeating myself?) Nor of communism. It IS of Nazism.
Also, for your reading enjoyment, is the corrected list.
Again, well trolled.
Second Boer War 75,000
Japanese Massacre of Singapore 100,000
Burma-Siam Railroad Construction 116,000
Japanese Germ Warfare in China 200,000
Rebelling Shia Killed by Saddam 300,000
US Bombing of Yugoslavia 300,000
US Bombing Iraq Water Supply ’91 500,000
US Civil War 700,000
Iraq-Iran War 1,000,000
US sanctions on Iraq 1,000,000
US Backed Suharto 1,200,000
Irish Potato Famine 1,500,000
Japanese Democides 5,964,000
Famine of 1932-33 7,000,000
Bengal Famine of 1943 10,000,000
Famine in British India 30,000,000
US Intervention in the Congo 5,000,000
Hurricane Katrina 1,836
Indonesian Anti-Com. Purge 1,000,000
Stateless Capitalist Somalia 1,000,000
Industrial Revolution USA 100,000
1898 US War vs Philippine 3,000,000
Palestinians Killed by Israel 826,626
Guatemala 300,000
Nanking Massacre 300,000
Iraq (Selling Gas to Saddam) 400,000
Iraq (Desert Storm) 500,000
Invasion of the Philippines 650,000
Feudal Russia 1,066,000
Afghanistan 1,200,000
Iraq 1,300,000
Khmer Rouge 2,035,000
South African Apartheid 3,500,000
Nazi Holocaust 12,000,000
US Aggression on Latin America 6,000,000
Japanese Imperialism 6,000,000
Vietnam War – including Cambodia & Laos 10,000,000
Korean War 10,000,000
British Occupation of India 20,000,000
Great Depression (America alone) 12,000,000
World War One 16,500,000
World War Two 60,000,000
Native American Genocide 95,000,000
Capitalist Policy in India 1947 – 1990 120,000,000
African Slave Trade 150,000,000
US Backed murder of Tamils 30,000
Spanish-American War 100,000
Spanish Civil War 400,000
Union Carbide Bophal Disaster 15,000
Massacre of Paris Commune 20,000
First Indochina 1946-1954 1,500,000
Belgian Congo Colonization 1,000,000
French Madagascar 80,000
Nigerian Civil War 1,000,000
Rwandan Genocide 1,000,000
US Made Famine Bangladesh 100,000
I just don’t think I have contributed enough troll-riffic comments, so, here ya go.
So, is this the tent city I’m supposed to give a shit about?
Or, is it the one with the Natzis?
HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS!!!
Wouldn’t being a cocksucker make me part of the 99%?
@72 and 85
Wow. With made up numbers like those, it’s a wonder there’s anyone left in the world at all!
Good thing they’re pure fantasy, I guess. I mean, you leave the lying failed politician Grayson entirely in the dust with your whoppers. Kudos, since out-lying Grayson really takes talent! I mean, for a politician to lose an election for being a lying sack of crap? We sort of expect that, so you really have to be a complete dirtbag with no integrity whatever to accomplish that particular feat.
Out of curiosity, how many billions have died of paper cuts in your estimation? Flea bites? How about the ever present threat of using the bathroom WITHOUT WASHING YOUR HANDS! Probably like some zombie apocalypse movie right there, that hand washing thing. Bunch of stiffs littering the ground worldwide with dirty germ ridden hands and a few shell shocked survivors trying to find an open Starbucks, I’d guess is your view of the thing.
Out of further curiousity, is it not taking the medications you’re supposed to be taking or taking the ones you aren’t that divorced you so completely from reality?
@85: So now the Irish Potato Famine and Hurricane Katrina are caused by capitalism?
@89: You are then a very talented individual, for you out-lie Mr. Grayson nearly every time you post on this fine website.
Tell me again how hate crime legislation grants special protections to gays!
I remember seeing protests in the early 90s by “anarchists” in the U-Dist against “Nazis,” who were actually a couple of equally-confused homeless youths. But to talk to these “anarchists,” these pathetic protests were preventing the Fouth Reich. My point is that these “Nazis” are playing right into the world-view of the “anarchist” anti-authoritarian types, who then take great pleasure in painting the police as pro-Nazi for breaking up their scuffle. Guarantee everyone’s having a great time, except perhaps the cops, who are hopefully at least getting some well-deserved overtime.
The gentle sound of cold autumn rain on the roof as the furnace quietly works in the background really make me feel comfortable right now. The fire burning cozily away in the fireplace in my study doesn’t hurt either. Maybe even take a nice warm shower later before hopping into bed, just to get the toes warm.
Good thing I’m not sleeping in a poorly erected tent on a college campus looking forward to a filthy porta potti for natures calls tonight and no way to keep decently clean! Brrrrr.
90: Yes. Capitalist policies caused those deaths. In the case of Ireland the draconian policies of England. In the case of New Orleans the draconian policies of the US. Both involved the weather, yes, but the disasters were caused by humans. Capitalist humans.
@90
There is an argument to be made that Ireland’s Great Famine was, in fact, caused by capitalism.
Of course, there are a half dozen other strong causal arguments as well, so just pick the one that supports your own political predisposition, no?
And if you’re in the mood to reject anything other than material causation, then was the flooding of New Orleans caused by a storm, or was it caused by the Army Corps of Engineers?
@61 Well you have fun with that, but I have zero desire to live in the kind of community I have seen at Occupy Seattle. I like the companies provide me easy access to things that I want and I certainly do not want to be part of direct democracy with nightly meetings. No fucking thank you.
Taxing the rich more, strengthening the social safety net, and better regulating the financial industry, etc I am all about.
You can keep your revolution.
@96: “Taxing the rich more, strengthening the social safety net, and better regulating the financial industry, etc I am all about.”
Those are considered looney-lefty ideas without people like us farther to the left making that seem sensible. MLK needed Malcolm X. You need us.
@96 I guess. On the other hand you run the risk of making the whole movement look like a bunch of loons. The teabaggers put together a solid movement that accomplished a fair bit, but now is starting to be a liability to their respective side.
Capitalism? I thought we were talking Nazism or do you think they are the same? One of the losers who calls the USA ‘Amerikkka’?
98: Well, I’m open to your solution.
@99: Poor troll, you can’t follow an argument can you?
@100
There’s plenty of space between the pro-violence radical left and the liberal establishment. OWS started in that space. OWS could solve most of its impending public-relations problem by staying in that space, and jettisoning anyone who doesn’t want to be there.
That would mean starting to take non-violence seriously. There are still old dinosaur activists out there who can teach non-violent civil disobedience tactics. This is not stuff you learn by reading the phrase “non-violent civil disobedience tactics”. It takes time and practice; at least 8 hours for minimal familiarization. It’s boring. It feels kinda lame when you’re learning it. It’s what your hippie parents did. And it works.
Suggested reading: Al Giordano on another Wall Street occupation.
@101: Thanks for the suggested read! I’m certainly not espousing violence, by the way.
Hey Giffy, I would be genuinely interested in hearing what you think of this:
http://www.theawl.com/2011/10/the-livest…
I attended the Occupy Seattle last Saturday. I’m glad to be a part of it. Of course I believe in free speech, but hate crimes are just that, crimes. Crime should not be tolerated, and we aren’t vigilantes to enforce the law. That IS what the police are for. Inciting violence should not be tolerated, even among our own (unfortunately we can’t stop the police from inciting violence). I think their comments should have been ignored, and told them to leave. 3 guys aren’t going to take over. Come on. lol I was a bit disturbed that Occupy allows political parties to try to push their agenda, like the socialist tables set up there. Yes it’s also free speech, but they’re trying to ride on Occupy’s coat tails to get attention. I think a rule should be that all participating are on the same page, that anything that divides the movement (political parties, religions, or any “isms”) should take their advertising elsewhere. Anyone screaming and out of control should be asked to calm down or leave. That is a form of violence. There should be a zero tolerance for drug or alcohol use at the occupation also. When I was at Westlake, at least 3 homeless people were asking for handouts of cash. What is being done about that? This is a movement, not a resting ground for every fringe thing out there.
@103 It was an interesting read! I have actually been down to Occupy Seattle a couple times.
I’m not sure my, pack it up and go do something else, message would be as well received, nor, honestly would I want to intrude like that. Internet arguing is one thing, but I don’t really feel compelled to go and try and get people to stop doing something they think is valuable like this. I don’t view protesting/occupying/etc as all that great of a strategy, but other do and that’s cool.
I think too that I have a different level of concern over society. I don’t think things are all that bad. I think we have plenty of areas to improve, but I am mostly content with how things are set up. For example I am a fan of corporate personhood and think it a good concept. I also think that we have plenty of power in electing leaders and for the most part they reflect the public(Not that I always agree). Citizen’s United does not bother me in the slightest.
I’d rather go testify at a City Hall meeting or volunteer to help a candidate. You can get more access to say a city council candidate door belling with them than by writing a big check.
OWS seems to be mostly an outside the system approach whereas I tend to like to work within the system.
@105: Well, our means–and our ends–are far apart but I want to believe that most of us want to live in a sane, just, and compassionate world. Maybe not seattleblues, but most of us.
@94 bhowie
You couldn’t be more spectacularly wrong that “capitalism” caused the Irish famine. Capitalism’s central tenet is the property of individuals, with investments that are determined by private decision, and the terms of exchange determined mainly by competition in a free market.
The monarchist British used currency control, military-backed violence, corrupt courts and legislative fiat from a shadow government to starve people. That isn’t capitalism. That’s Statism – which is inconvenient to the Left’s argument, but a particular indictment of the type of reach we’re seeing from government into everyday lives.
Please don’t ever say “Halloweekend” again. Thanks.
@107
You omit the minor “landlord” vs. “tenant” distinction, and its role in the famine; I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume that’s not “capitalist” in the theoretical framework you’re using.
this incident happened about three feet from my sleeping bag so I got to see the beginning of it anyway. After thinking about it I think these guys were probably gay bashers that cruise the hill every weekend, none of them identified themselves as Nazis, despite numerous demands they do so. None of them made any hand gestures or distintinctive walks, in fact both parties of belligerants were identically dressed in denium jeans and black leather jackets.
It is a little convienient that skins would walk into the camp now that the cops have left, I would point out that assholes with anarchist fasion sense have been slinking around westlake park, throwing around hate speach not in keeping with insurrectionary anarchist jargon, with nobody yelling “fascist” at them to get them to leave. Ignoring them and grouping for protection does work, eventually they just leave.
These jerks were deninately looking for trouble, and given the fact that people began picking up glass bottles and picket staves to put up alongside their head, it’s a testiment to their ability to backpedal and talk their way out of the camp that it didn’t get any further than talking smack.
@110
“Distinctive walks?” Are you shitting us? There’s enough sneering about OS being a Monty Python sketch without throwing out that particular flavor of stupid, don’t you think?
@109 – Noted.
Most of the landlords were British, who acquired wealth from the favors of royal patronage. In fact, French free-market economist Jean-Baptiste Say predicted the Irish famine decades before its arrival, and argued for laissez-faire policies in Ireland. In fact, economists thought capitalism would help AVOID a famine.
ask some people who dealt with actual Nazis in Europe (and some of those people are still alive)whether they’d consider the several idiots who showed up in the middle of the night, without guns or dogs, with no police power and no dictatorship supporting them, to be “Nazis”. Those survivors would laugh at you.
@112
Most of the landlords were Irish, actually. There was a sectarian divide, not a national one; we tend to conflate the two today.
When we analyze the effects of capitalism, are we supposed to discount our analysis based on the origins of capital in a given example? Capitalism is about numbers, not about sources, right?
We have certain economists in the US today who think that more, bigger, less regulated capitalism will make things better; does it necessarily follow that such policies did not contribute to the current crisis to begin with?
@106, Certainly!
Well, off to my nice warm bed in my nice warm house.
Listen to that rain just POUR down out there! Almost makes me feel sorry for idiots sleeping in tents to prove some incoherent point. Almost.
Nah. Hope you guys get good and soaked out there tonight. Stupidity should come with a cost.
The people who showed up were in fact nazi’s. You don’t get “seig heil” tatoed on your face if you’re not pretty committed to the cause.
Secondly, the brave actions of the protestors who attacked these monsters should be celebrated, not condemned. Do some research on what the nazi’s in this city have been up to. A muslim woman and her child were attacked by one of them with a knofe a year a ago – when arrested for it, the arrestee just kept repeating “just doing my part for the white race.”
Bravo to the protestors. Stay up!
It’ gets worse…here’s some LiveStream footage from #OccupyPortland showing an even bigger contingent invading them:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K08akOt2k…
@57 Dominic, there were two self-admitted Nazis (if I recall correctly) and they were kicked out of camp. You mention the gentleman in the top hat and the potential of being a possible Nazi sympathizer (which he is not, in fact, from what I understand he is very active in the LGBTQ community and advancement of LGBTQ-related human rights). The title of your article is “THREE Nazis kicked out of Occupy Seattle.”
I can only assume that by using the number 3 instead of 2, meant that you were including him in that number of Nazis.
And, for the record, he wasn’t kicked out of camp. He had every right to be there, but left of his own accord after speaking to a Peace and Safety team member and myself. He decided it would be better to just go home, and let things simmer down, since tensions were so high.
More info, for any interested. So far all accusations pertaining to this gentleman being a Nazi sympathizer all came back to one person’s accusations against that man. I was unable to substantiate the veracity of the reasons he should have been kicked out from anyone besides simply “individual X told me the man in the top hat did this.” Unfortunately, groupthink does not abide by the values of the court systems. Hopefully, everyone will eventually understand, that believing in universal nonviolence does not equate to nazi-sympathizing.
I was there at the SCCC “Nazi Invasion” where I was screamed at in no uncertain terms that protestors not willing to partake in violence to rid our “Love in” of “Nazi Scum” should get out of the way, and those “trained” in Nazi hunting be allowed to deal with the invasion with “swift efficiency”. My line of thinking was even referred to as “Liberal”, and that all “Liberals” should move to City Hall , where I assume the “Liberal Pussy 99%” faction welcome everyone!
So SCCC has already established in no uncertain terms their willingness to use “whatever means necessary” (violence) to enforce their leaderless “Love In”. I was also informed by several members that we are NOT a nonviolent movement, and that our
“nonviolence” was never voted on. There was a nice Anarchist table earlier in the day that reinforced the “non-nonviolent” rhetoric.
I just want to get money out of elections and regulate the banks. As a Dem I guess I no longer fit in with the “Socialist Utopia/Hemp Fest” being offered by the #occupyseattle movement. I will be giving my hometown #occupyeverett a go.
I’m sick of the #occupy policy that loudest voice bellowing wins. The movement does have leaders. They are the angry voices that scream the loudest. That’ll work!
I wish that the “occupiers” would consider and remember while they are bickering, arguing and engaging in conflict. . . they have come in to “occupy” an already “occupied “neighborhood. By that I mean this is a residential neighborhood.
The “occupiers” are in fact guests who have imposed themselves upon us, as a residential community. They unilaterally voted to move here. Please don’t disturb the people who live here, and furthermore don’t behave in an inappropriate manner as a guest.
Engaging in conflict both verbal and physical is not appropriate behavior.
Why were the the residents of this community allowed to vote as to whether they want this “occupation” WE HAVE TO PAY TO LIVE HERE.
I find the behavior and attitude of the Seattle movement distasteful at times. Enough so of late that I feel they are detracting from the cause.
What a shame. It’s a good cause.
@120 – Have you asked the anarchists if they find it at all ironic to impose violent authoritarianism in the name of anti-authoritarianism?
Top Hat, here.
I saw a fight occur. I didn’t see any tattoos, goose stepping, heard no Nazi jargon being spouted. I don’t give a damn what your beliefs are, that is your business. The rules of engagement @Occupy Seattle, and our promise to the college is non violence. I am a member of Occupy Seattle Media Team. We promised the campus this kind of thing wouldn’t happen. That’s what I tried to defend, our mission statement. I’m a veteran protester and I’ve lived in this city since 1989. I’ve defended many people from mindless violence and would do so again. Who am I to judge what someones personal beliefs are because some drunk chick yells “He’s a Nazi”. I’ve never been a part of, nor advocated for any political group. I personally detest the beliefs of the Nazi party. I’ve defended people from their violence in the past. If you use violence towards ANYONE who has gathered peacefully at any OS assembly I will stand in your way as well. We have to stick to our rules of engagement. Non Violence! The only time we can even vere, is if we’re defending someone who has been attacked. And that should be done with the most minimal amount of force necessary to diffuse the situation. I believe legal is working on a clear statement as to who is and isn’t welcome at OS assembly. I was having a great time playing my Irish whistle at the drum circle. To bad it was destroyed in the scuffle. Lets get back to what we came here to do. Make our world a better place.
~Top Hat
How come just about everyone who posts here can’t spell? Or be able to pass a seventh-grade Language Arts test?
Don’t you know the difference between “lose” and “loose?”
Or “it’s” and “its?’
Or that Westlake Park is capitalized?
You are all morons.
@ 110
They did identify as nazis. I was one of the original people to confront them along with someone from tactical. that is why they got kicked out. this conversation is getting old. who wants to support a movement of people who are so disorganized they can’t even decide if they want self-identified nazis around?
also, its not about “2 or 3” nazis creating the 5th reich as some of the more idiotic comments on here suggest. Its about public safety at an occupation for our brothers and sisters who might be queer, people of color, or otherwise targeted by the ideology of these people.
@123
How is crashing unwanted in someone else’s property “making the world a better place” for anyone?
A hell of a lot of residents of the Hill, people who have successfully accomplished basic life skills like pay rent, attend classes, find work etc, are having a tough time identifying with petulant children who won’t leave.
Self important protestors who make a career out of screaming don’t really accomplish as much as you might think. Meanwhile that guy on youtube that did “Keep Wall Street Occupied” is probably going to have more impact than the entire Tent City: Occupy Edition ever will.
Who called the womyn bitches? The nazis, anarchists, Jews in sukkahs or top hat man (possible 1 percenter?)..
Please help!
Temperature check!
“all “Liberals” should move to City Hall , where I assume the “Liberal Pussy 99%” faction welcome everyone!”
No mate, City Hall is the Popular Front of OS, SCCC is the People’s Front of OS and Westlake is the OS’s People’s Front….splitters!
“people who have successfully accomplished basic life skills like pay rent,”
Rent is yuppie fascism. Cap Hill should be free for the people!
“some drunk chick yells “He’s a Nazi””
Isn’t being drunk against the good neighbor agreement? Why is she still in OS?
Wow, took OS less than 24 hrs to embarrass themselves.
Reading cartoon radicals argue about the potato famine is yet another in an unending series of highlights in this new Monty Python movie. Then: NAZIS! Tomorrow: mud wrestling!
Here in the real world, no one in Ireland wants your fucking potato-based leftism. Capitalism has made Ireland rich beyond anyone’s imaginings. Ireland used to be the poorest country in Europe, down there below Portugal and Greece; but in the last thirty years they became the “Celtic Tiger”, one of the richest countries in the world, richer per capita than Germany, Sweden or Canada. Yes, their bubble burst along with everyone else’s, but they’re climbing out of that hole already.
I seriously hope that the next person who suggests that it’s OK to brawl in the street because People of Color historically can’t trust the police gets his head bashed in.
But, hey, keep it up, you’re all very entertaining.
Fnarf is someone who, in addition to trolling Slog to make himself feel superior to everyone else (meanwhile can’t seem to follow a logical argument and when someone calls him out for it he disappears), now seems to think he speaks for EVERYONE in Ireland. I’m sure they will thank him profusely for the honor, especially since they are ALL so rich.
Let me guess, you are a Thomas Friedman fan, aren’t you?
woah too many stupid comments on here at this point… jesus christ
@133: Ireland is in the middle of an economic collapse right now. are you fucking kidding me? Do you really think Sinn Fein and the Provo IRA were car bombing people and buildings just because they didn’t like Martin Luther? come on. And what about the hunger strikers in the 60’s? 20 or 30 years of economic comfort largely built on false economic premises (like joining the EU) and tourism isn’t an example of “capitalism triumphing over all!”. your a moron. get your facts straight
@126: there are a lot of people who support occupy from the hill. just because you and your asshole friends (that being the social network where you insulate most of your opinions) don’t like occupy doesn’t mean that it isnt welcome. 1) SCCC is public property and many occupiers are students at SCCC or former students (such as myself) 2) its an occupation jackass, the intention is economic and social disruption to reach a particular goal (in this case the vague goal of economic justice) 3) with the exception of street kids almost all of us have jobs, lives, children, and places that we pay rent on. typical dipshit move to try to falsely paint the occupiers as “homeless indigents” simply because you can’t grasp that there might be real people down there who are fed up.
@136 Oh dear, have you confused the Republican of Ireland with Ulster?
@136 Oh and btw, Bobby Sands et all were in the ’80s not the 60s. And in Ulster, not the Republic of Ireland to which Fnarf was referring.
Facts can be a bitch when you don’t have a command of them.
“SCCC or former students (such as myself) “
Apparently while studying the cupcake arts they didn’t explain the geopolitical make up of the Isle of Eire.
@135, ah, my good friend bhowie. You couldn’t make a logical argument with a textbook and six Harvard interns. Case in point: you can certainly find poor people in Ireland, but you won’t find too many who want to go back to the bad old days, even thirty years ago, when unemployment was 20% and the rate of emigration was higher than that from East Germany after the wall fell. Plenty of Irishmen and women are suffering right now from the global economic crisis, and there are a variety of opinions on what to do about that, but the number of them who want to get rid of capitalism is very close to zero.
I have no idea how or why Thomas Friedman entered this discussion. But I guess you have to go with the straw men you’ve got, especially when you have no actual knowledge. Why don’t you look up how the far left does in Irish elections and get back to us?
@140: Poor Fnarf, you seem very confused. You say I can’t make a logical argument and then proceed argue with a point I never made. I can’t presume to speak for people in Ireland and neither can you.
My question about Thomas Friedman was just that, a question. Before you go pointing out staw men (the construction of which you are a master) you need to first figure out what an argument is and be able to identify when one is being made. Oh, but that might poke holes in your delusions of intellectual grandeur.
Bhowie is still trying to figure out how 1. Pol Pot was US-backed in 1975 and 2.. How he killed more Cambodians than actual cambodians who existed.
He probably doesn’t understand the difference between Ireland (the country Fnarf is talking about) and the Province of Ulster either.
When he finds a cut and paste answer I’m sure he’ll share it.
@101 and @123 are right. Non-violence is not just a convenient slogan you can ignore when you get upset or hurt. (As suggested by 22, 27, 34, 41, 50, 52, & 110, among others.) Non-violence is a political tactic with a long history and practice. Non-violence requires discipline, and the expectation that you will be hurt. The point is to get hurt, on camera. If no one hurts you (on camera) then your non-violence was not effective. Non-violence when done right irritates the hell out of the people you oppose, but makes them look like bullies when they push you arround. It’s all about appealing to the broader audience, and setting up situations where you look like the victim, to get more and more support for your side. I hope OWS can remind participants that they are supposed to get hurt (on camera) for their cause, not hurt other people to protect the purity of their cause.
@142: Troll, I already conceded your point #2 many comments ago. It was more like 2 million, which I corrected.
As for #1 it has been well documented that rise of Pol Pot is a direct result of US activities in Cambodia.
I said nothing of Ulster. That’s another conversation on this thread.
Keep trollin’!
@143 EricaP; As usual, you beat me to it! Well said!
@101 & @123: Amen!
Best/most effective anti-nazi action I know of: the crowd turned and mooned a neo-nazi rally. The nazis never came back.
Don’t ignore humiliate them.
Don’t ignore them, humiliate them.
(Grr to thumb-typing.)
My guess, South Park Conservatives, the sort that have “ghetto” themed frat parties.
@145 guess we think alike 🙂
That “1%” is gonna get pretty big if it includes everyone that doesn’t agree with OS. I believe I still can want large bank execs held accountable, and certain government officials prosecuted, without wanting my neighborhood turned into a permanent squatters camp for petulant self-taught anarchists.
@151 we will squat on you if you don’t shuddup
Props to the antifas in Seattle. In order to do effective outreach, the occupations must be safe places. Nazi scum marching around seig heil’ing is an attempt to wreak psychological violence on communites of color. It’s too bad they were able to walk away. Smash the Fash. Good job!
@153 – four legs good! two legs bad!
@129 Dear God, it starts to feel like “Life of Brian” every time I go down there.
And please, call me Loretta.
Occupy Seattle is a non violent movement. If it becomes anything else we will be evicted from the campus, and betray our own mission statement and movement. We have already lost support, due to the violence of Sat night. This isn’t an outlet for your personal anger toward your favorite hate group! Its an attempt to turn a protest into a movement with permanency. When occupiers use violence against other occupiers we prove that we are hardly ready to accept the responsibility of enacting responsible change. We only display that we are no better than an angry mob.
The “supposed nazis” did not arrive “sieg hieling”. They merely walked onto the campus and were immediately attacked by a group of self styled “protester police” who initiated the violence. When I attempted to intervene on behalf of our non violent protocol, I was then immediately labelled “nazi sympathizer” and attacked by the same group. I detest nazis, but I am not so afraid to have dialogue with them that I need to grab a bottle or a stick, and form a lynch mob, revealing myself as a fucking savage no better than them.
I am a member of O.S. Media Committee. I am a documented supporter of civil and human rights in this city. I am currently working with leaders of the Gay and African American Communities to interface and support a cooperative march and speak out on Broadway in the next ten days. The very same people who came forward in 1994 to support our Police Brutality movement, which still goes on to this very day. I don’t lay around in a tent getting stoned all day. I have a job, a life, a home, and I put forth valid efforts to organize, uphold, and shape what I consider to be the beginning of one of the most important movements in recent history.
Since the night of the incident, the very same small faction of occupiers who initiated the violence @S.C.C.C. has begun a smear campaign against me. Using G.A. to try and color me as a villain. One of them has gone so far as to call me an “Enemy of O.S.” coming to GA to speak of me as a fascist and provocateur. So while you use the facilities that are so graciously lent to us, to further your hate agenda, to try and take focus off your own rash and violent acts, and lay around eating free soup. I am working my ass off to further our movement in the community.
Thanks a lot drunken, self styled, “protester police”. In my mind YOU are the fucking Nazis!
~Top Hat
@Top Hat — are you trained in non-violent communication? If so, then you know it’s never easy, and especially when a movement is growing to include people with little or no training in non-violence. I wish you all the best — try to stay focused on your larger goal, please!
Dear concerned citizens,
So I’m the guy that identified the two Nazis as a threat and did my best to peacefully resolve the situation when I saw “Top Hat”, a.k.a. Evan, whip a crowd up into a frenzy. I then saw him attempt to stop all attempts to calm the situation or make sense of the madness. I am also the one who first confronted him and called him out as a “provocateur” as I listened to him shout misrepresentations of reality and twisted interpretations of who he was and what had occurred. Throughout the night I saw him flip like a switch from being belligerent to rational, from calling for inclusion to shouting for exclusion, and from calling for nonviolence to acting violently.
I had approached the two Nazis I met about thirty minutes earlier and attempted to nonviolently deescalate the situation. I met them on the Broadway side of the OS space. The two of them initially approached me asking “are there any bars around here?” and if this was “a beer garden or party” they could join. The man talking was a grim faced skin head with the words “Sieg Heil” tattooed across his chin. I said “no” and the man mischievously smiled at me and walked away. With the hairs standing up on the back of my neck and only myself and one other person walking the perimeter of the space, I proceeded to alert select people around the site and ask them to be on the look out for the dubious men.
The man on watch with me found the two men I described walking into the middle of the site and told me where they were. I then identified them, asked some friends near by to get my back, and approached the two men. I calmly stated that “you’re not welcome” as I stood between people yelling “fascists get out!” and “Nazis go home!” As I was attempting to DE-escalate and get them out of the situation, “Top-Hat” (a big and boisterous middle-aged white male named Evan wearing a black bolo hat) pushed through the crowd waving his arms about wildly, pointing at the men and shouting in a angry gravely voice, that, “they are the 99%!” and that the “NAZIS have every right to be here!” and that “We can’t ask them to leave!”. I could have dealt with two factions, but this third quickly turned the crowd into an uncontrollable mob. He kept shouting and pushing and yelling over the crowd’s cries for the Nazis to leave. This is when things got bad and very confusing.
A young man in our group started to argue that it is a freedom of speech issue and another pushed passed me into the man with the ugly tattoo. Top-Hat grew louder and angrier and I wondered how many people and factions I was dealing with. Don’t know who swung first. The crowd then surged and people fell and I attempted to stay close to the tattooed man and stop him from hurting or being hurt by the crowd. As the crowd surged, I saw the tattooed man punch one man in the face and then get struck by someone else diving over people. People turned on one another in the confusion, while Top-Hat all the while kept shouting and whipping the crowd up into an ever more uncontrollable frenzy. As I moved with the crowd and kept pulling one person off another I saw a girl punch another girl in the face. Another person fell down from a confused blow while I worked to hold a friend back to allow the agitators an exit. It all happened in a few moments and then was over. The Nazis were off running down Broadway with police cars flying down the street after them. People were angry and upset, but no one was seriously hurt. The two Nazis ran off and myself and many others tried our best to move through the crowd and calm down as many people as we could.
Eventually, people called for a general assembly (GA) to make sense of the madness. The man people started calling “Top-Hat” was again there and then shouting into the GA over voices calling for peace and order. He essentially said to hell with 99%. He said he would speak with his own voice and that he had singularly been responsible for establishing the SCCC location and that he would have an end to it. He shouted for more madness and began to get the crowd stirred up again. I then lost my cool and told him who he was. I stepped between him and the crowd with my arms holding people back and shouted over his belligerence. He was not one of the organizers I had ever worked with and as far as I knew had done nothing but disrupt and provoke the situation. I did not know him. He had caused this. He was either a bipolar ego-maniac or provocateur. Either way, he was dangerous.
The young man that expressed concern with the question of the Nazis right to freedom of speech amongst a crowd of self identified nonviolent anti-racists was accused of calling a girl a “bitch” and asked to leave. He then cried and apologized as emotions ran high. Others had many other grievances. I did my best to explain this was not a situation of our making and that we needed to come back together.
After the GA dispersed, I attempted to have a public conversion with Top-Hat. I was now calm and confident while he was anxious, loud, and irrational. Eventually some of the people who volunteer with the Peace and Safety working group got him to leave. To my surprise, a woman later came up to me and gave me a hug. She thanked me for finally saying something about the man known as Top-Hat. He had evidently been acting aggressively toward people all day. She said he had said vile and disgusting things to a friend of her’s and then threatened to hurt him and then went back to playing a flute and acting as if he was with the group.
The next morning I continued to try and make sense of the situation. The head of SCCC’s security told me he had seen the man earlier in the evening openly drinking by the children’s play area. All through the night he was acting suspiciously and avoiding the security chief. Another man told me that Top-Hat, or Evan as I later learned, had grabbed a woman’s ass earlier during the day and sexually harassed another. One minute he was clean, intelligent, and sober, and in the next he is wild, irrational, aggressive, and drunk in front of security. I then heard that he had returned the next day and was openly drinking in the space in front of a family with young children and that he had later written an eloquent letter to our legal team contradicting everything I was trying to make clear to other people. Another man in OS that was not present during the situation went around the site after me and shared a contradictory story that Top-Hat (Evan) told him to share with others. This caused further confusion.
Whatever Evan’s intentions or motives, he is dangerous. His pattern of bad behavior as witnessed by different at people at different times speaks for itself. I do not know if he works for a particular group, but I do know that, if he represents an organization meant to discredit, disrupt, or destroy our movement, it would have been hard for him to have been more successful. Whoever this man is, I will be watching for him and any other men like him. We will not allow a few yahoos and parasites or provocateurs to tear us apart. Tools of oppression will never be able to crush us from without and I fight every effort of those who would see us fracture and shattered from within. The powers that be are losing their hold and people see the old man behind the curtain for what he is, a sickly obsolete thing with no real purpose but to sustain an unsustainable and morally corrosive capital trajectory of destruction.
I will not stop my efforts to build a more just world for our posterity. We will survive and endure. The public space is ours. And failing elite corporate/private interests’ efforts will only serve to further galvanize us in our defiant effort to survive and fight for the democratic public interests.
Sincerely,
Joshua Farris
A Seattle Central Community College Alumni, Iraq Veteran Against War, and Proud member of the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers and Occupy Seattle movement
@156, @158
You are both clearly committed to both the Occupation, and to nonviolence as a core tenet, and that’s awesome.
But a group can only be called nonviolent when every single member of that group adheres to nonviolent principles, both in word and in action, at all times.
I can’t find the commitment to nonviolence passed by the Seattle General Assembly (I’m sure it exists, I just can’t find it), so I don’t know the particulars of the pledge, but it seems pretty clear that however it’s worded, the occupying group currently lacks the discipline and training to adhere to that vow, unfailingly, 24/7.
I don’t know how to establish that kind of tight discipline in a horizontal, open-membership group, but I’m sure someone can come up with a creative approach. I do know that training in non-violent civil disobedience is available to anyone who seeks it out.
I think the Nazis or any other hate group should not be allowed in the movement. The Nazis are a horrible group. With that said, acting like the Nazis with your language and actions makes you no better than them.
@153 – “It’s too bad they were able to walk away. Smash the Fash.” It sounds like you are advocating murder.
@The mob – You sound just like the Nazis. In your statements just replace the word Nazi with any other group. Then google it and you will find Nazi propaganda.
If you hate something, don’t you do it too? -Not For You, by Peal Jam
I really do respect the nobility of non-violent protest.
But I have to fuck a nazi punk up on sight. It’s just what I gotta do. (also why I am not camped out with OS)
@Josh: I cant believe you would go so far as to lie about my actions and create an ongoing smear campaign against me. I’m not surprised based on what I saw Sat night. You are clearly on a power trip. I see you left out the part where you and your friends attempted to drag and push me off campus. Injuring my knee and my hand while I remained non violent.
Watch the archived live feed of the Oct 29th General Assembly meeting @: http://www.livestream.com/owsoccupyseatt… [Look under: Latest videos. Time signature: 02:11:28.] You will see Josh tell an entirely different story from what he writes above. He uses General Assembly to brag about his violence. “I put a scar on that guys face that will always be there” Then he goes on to say that “Facial tattoos are a mark of criminality”. This is Peace and Safety?
Now you are just making shit up. Are you sure I didn’t conspire to assassinate the president, or place a bomb under the childcare center? Your bullshit story gets longer each day. What will you add tomorrow? There are so many lies here that I will not begin to try to refute all of them.
You are colluding with a small faction of people within Peace & Safety, to take the light off of their violent actions on the night in question. Several members of Peace and Safety have already stepped down due to the occurrences of Sat night. So you know, it is speculated by other organizers that you are angry and thirsty for personal recognition. In truth you seem like a pissed off rent a cop.
For my part in this, I am finished defending myself. I will continue to go forward with my work for OS. While you were somewhere making up stories, I was at SCCC scheduling meetings with community leaders and Media Group to plan marches for next week, Booking local bands and comedians for our Bank Transfer Day gathering, Sat Nov 5th @ Westlake Center, and looking at warehouse spaces to lease for OS headquarters.
I am done pointing fingers. I hope we’ve learned some lessons from Sat night, but now its time to move on. Mistakes were made on everyone’s behalf. Many people were celebrating Halloween and the move to SCCC. It is my firm belief that alcohol played a major factor in the confusion and rashness that surround the events in question, on many peoples behalf. As long as we learn from our mistakes they were not made in vain. I suggest WE as a whole, firmly discourage the use of alcohol on campus. So Josh, you spend some of your time on Peace and Safety Group making sure people understand that, and I’ll spend some of my time on Media Group doing the same. We are on the same team. As long as we practice non violence and free speech we can work past this.
I’m embarrassed that this now colors us in the way it does. I give my solemn promise to do all in my power, to be more clear and concise in everything I do, while representing OS and this movement. I suggest you do the same.
Legal has suggested that you and I meet with one of their members, to talk about what happened and how to move past it. I am more than willing.
~Evan
@162: Evan: Audio of Occupy Seattle’s October 31 general assembly is available for streaming and download. Jason’s report begins at 28 minutes. The notes I took include the following:
@133- How are those austerity measures treating you there, Keltik-Kitten?
@ 138- If that’s the case, perhaps Fnarf should have said “Ulster” instead of “Ireland” three times.
@161: True dat, amecha.
Occupy Seattle Arts & Media Present
“Voices of The Revolution”
A DAY OF SOLIDARITY
Speakers, Poets, Singer/Song writers, Bands, and DJs
Combine their music and voices to invoke UNITY
SATURDAY NOV 12TH
WESTLAKE CENTER MAIN STAGE
1PM till 6PM
A free concert and rally in the park
SCHEDULE:
1:00PM TILL 1:30PM: SPECIAL GUEST SPEAKERS
1:30PM TILL 2:30PM: ADRIAN XAVIER http://www.adrianxavier.com/
“Seattle’s Adrian Xavier doesn’t screw around with reggae. He’s not gimmicky, and he’s not trying to capitalize on the memory of an era that has already been thoroughly exploited. Xavier is a reggae musician in the grandest traditions – exploring themes of pacifism, wanderlust, and the glory of experience and natural wonder. Infact, it’d be inaccurate to limit him to just reggae, as he incorporates elements of soul, dub, hip-hop, and rock ‘n’ roll into the show. Xavier’s brimming over with authenticity and, perhaps more important, danceability.”
-The Pacific Northwest Inlander
2:30PM TILL 3:30PM: OPEN MIC FORUM [occupiers speak their mind]
3:30PM TILL 5:00PM: MICHAEL MANAHAN http://youtu.be/1_YNMHFJHk4 http://youtu.be/kMZ2B3W_tB4
“Hailing from Seattle, Michael Manahan has made his mark with integrity and staying power, serving up solid and sometimes slamming grooves, spanning many styles and genre’s like House, Techno, Breaks, Dubstep and more. Michael is versatile as a dj, while being precise and provocative as an event producer, upping the vibe wherever he goes, his sets and presence are sure to increase the love!” -Seattle Free Press
5:00PM TILL 5:30PM AMANDA PALMER http://www.amandapalmer.net/
Amanda Palmer is a performer, director, composer and musician who is best known for her role as front woman and keyboardist for the internationally acclaimed punk cabaret band The Dresden Dolls. In 2008, Amanda released Who Killed Amanda Palmer, her debut solo album which was produced by Ben Folds and was accompanied with the release of a fine art photography book on which she collaborated with esteemed author Neil Gaiman. After touring the world endlessly (live highlights include three critically-hailed performances with the Boston Pops at Symphony Hall, residency at the Famous Spiegeltent at Edinburgh, and a critically acclaimed performance at the 2009 Coachella Valley Arts and Music Festival), Amanda took on the role of the Emcee in a sold out run of the Kander & Ebb musical “Cabaret” with the legendary American Repertory Theater in the Fall of 2010. As the undisputed champion artist of the emerging music business scene, she was named Artist of the Year 2010 by the Boston Music Awards. Amanda also tends a widely-read blog and twitter-feed and was dubbed “The Social Media Queen of Rock-N-Roll” by The Huffington Post.
“Dark and jubilant.”-New York Times
~Occupy Seattle asks all of you to join us this day, to show solidarity and unity for our community, and to uphold the spirit of Occupations all over the world.
1. Nonviolence is a way of life for courageous people.
• It is active nonviolent resistance to evil.
• It is assertive spiritually, mentally, and emotionally.
• It is always persuading the opponent of the justice of your cause.
2. Nonviolence seeks to win friendship and understanding.
• The end result of nonviolence is redemption and reconciliation.
• The purpose of nonviolence is the creation of the Beloved Community.
3. Nonviolence seeks to defeat injustice, not people.
• Nonviolence holds that evildoers are also victims.
4. Nonviolence holds that voluntary suffering can educate and
transform.
• Nonviolence willingly accepts the consequences of its acts.
• Nonviolence accepts suffering without retaliation.
• Nonviolence accepts violence if necessary, but will never inflict it.
• Unearned suffering is redemptive and has tremendous educational and
transforming possibilities.
• Suffering can have the power to convert the enemy when reason fails.
5. Nonviolence chooses love instead of hate.
• Nonviolence resists violence of the spirit as well as of the body.
• Nonviolent love gives willingly, knowing that the return might be hostility.
• Nonviolent love is active, not passive.
• Nonviolent love does not sink to the level of the hater.
• Love for the enemy is how we demonstrate love for ourselves.
• Love restores community and resists injustice.
• Nonviolence recognizes the fact that all life is interrelated.
6. Nonviolence believes that the universe is on the side of justice.
• The nonviolent resister has deep faith that justice will eventually win.
-Martin Luther King’s Principles of Nonviolence