Columns Jul 29, 2010 at 4:00 am



Romance novels are this particular intellectual woman's dirty little secret. When the narrative suddenly devotes an entire paragraph to describing in vivid detail the color variations of a male character's eyes, that's the clue.

Porn, meh. I find it depressing - but maybe I wouldn't if I were just watching it "for entertainment value" rather than feeling that I was expected to get off on it somehow.

What is missing for me from most porn is an element of humanity, humanness. Tenderness. There should be suspense at the outcome, at least in terms of WHEN and HOW - most porn has such a foregone conclusion that the tension of uncertainty, which is a huge turn-on for me, is missing altogether.

Adult fan fiction, yeah. I loved those Kirk/Spock cartoons. It felt so intimate to watch some character I knew from seasons on TV and suddenly I could watch his cock. It wouldn't have meant anything if it had been a stranger.
June @95: The wording of his letter -- "My wife dates men on her own, and I get to enjoy the occasional threesome with her and one of her partners" -- indicates pretty strongly (to me, anyway) that the agreement is that the husband doesn't get to pick outside partners, not that he is lazy.

Why that might be is not explained in the letter. Is she insecure about letting him off the monogamy leash unattended, while he is perfectly cool with her doing the same? Is it that threesomes are his favorite thing, but for her to find them palatable she has to be the one to choose the third? (So of course she is going to choose a partner that makes her the most comfortable, which is to say, one of her guys. Again, there is no indication from the letter that either of them is bi.) Whatever the reason, it really looks like the wife is in control of the situation.

At the risk of repeating myself: ITASP, your wife is getting her fantasy life pretty much the way she wants it, while you are getting at best a warmed-over simulacrum of yours. That isn't fair, and it isn't very GGG of her. (And no, neither of the options that you present -- whether it's her continuing to bring home the same losers but pretending more convincingly to enjoy them, or you taking her at face value when she claims to be happy, while obviously just going through the motions -- is GGG either. This needs to be fixed.

One fix might be what Dan suggested: she can either make sure her guy waiting at home is properly satisfied (i,e, make the effort to bring home people who make the threesome satisfying), or forfeit the right to go get her own satisfaction elsewhere without regard to him. Another fix might be to that she makes sure he is satisfied at home or else forfeit the right to keep him there. In other words, he gets to go out and meet his own needs, just like she does, instead of relying on her to meet them. (Depends on whether this is something he actually wants.)
Something that (straight) guys generally aren't into, perhaps even repulsed by:

gay porn.

I am a woman who enjoys man on man love. No straight man I have dated has enjoyed it. Most were repulsed. Though cupcakes are amazing, the porn sounds sounds way better for sexual needs. Two men fucking while eating cupcakes? Even better.

"Written by straight-identifying women"

Hold it right there, buddy. We queer ladies like our slash, too.

(Sorry if I come across as snippy, but if I never hear "slash is written by/for straight women" again, I will die happy.)

Written by straight-identifying women

Hold it right there, buddy. We queer women like our slash, too.

(I'm sorry if I come across as snippy, but if I never hear "slash is written by/for straight women" again, I will die happy.)
Boo, double post. Sorry about that. In my defense, it took literally twenty minutes for my first comment to show up on the thread.
Porn equivalent for women? Romance novels.

There are a lot of women, especially older women, the ones who would never in a million years be comfortable with something identified as porn, who get their erotic/romantic thrills in the pages of a Linda Howard novel.

Once, on a considerably less sex-positive board, I threw out this notion - that reading romance novels was roughly the equivalent of a little internet porn surfing, or going out on Saturday night to see the dancers, and my, you should have seen the feathers fly.

As a middle aged, pretty sexually conservative straight woman myself, though, I can't really see the difference - a pleasant little thrill, external to the marriage and no threat to it unless devotion to it excludes the real human being in the bed there with you. Same same.
Women have another sex life that repels men, is completely external to their relationship, and most find quite satisfying.

It's call the Romance Novel.

In my opinion it's not as good as porn, but for women like my mother and sister, it is used the same way.

What's more, romance novels also have the same negative side as porn. They create unrealistic expectations that your average man is completely incapable of living up to.

Now I don't think we should ban romance novels, the same way that I don't think we should ban porn. Nor do I think women should be ashamed of reading them.

But you can't deny that there is a real similarity.
Opps. Sorry for repeating your point, agony.
@25 A bit late to the party, but, EXACTLY! Gay porn is twice as many hot men! And what's with the limp dicks or no dicks in straight porn? Last time Mr. Canuck and I were in a hotel and ordered up the porn, he had plenty to look at, and I was like, "what the? show me the money!"
@108 The last romance/erotica I read, the man was an ex-navy SEAL, had "abs like paint rollers," was 6'4", 240, had a jaw that could cut glass, gorgeous, and was an alpha-male who was just waiting for the right woman to come along and make him into putty....what am I missing? That's EXACTLY like my life... ;)
Jesus Wanking Christ. Where has Deb been for the last twenty years? The whole issue of "is porn okay for women, do women like porn, is it okay for women to like porn, you're perpetuating sexual repression, you can't tell me what to like, slut, bitch, pornpornporn blahblahblah..." has already been done to death.

And seriously, Learned Hand - romance novels? Maybe you and Deb should get together for a good ol' fifties-style stereotype flinging.
I see your point, but ITSAP said "we had no luck dating women or couples". That sounds fishy to me. How could they have had no luck with other couples? There are so many events, venues, websites, etc. to facilitate couples hooking up with other couples! and his wife doesn't seem to want the threesomes. It's the husband who wants the threesomes with his wife and another man, and he expects his wife to fuck people she isn't into just to make him happy. Seems like his energy would be better spent finding a hot couple or threesome girl for them to enjoy. I don't see why they couldn't find one of those situations.
Romance novels and fan fiction, boring. This het woman likes gay porn - lots of cock.
I'm a woman, and I'd like to find some good porn, but here is an example of why porn is sucking for me: I thought I would like to see something about 1 woman being ravished by more than one hot guy, and they are so totally into her, and are completely focused on HER pleasure. So I go looking for porn like that, assume something like "gang bang" should be a good search term, and all I find are videos with a bunch of guys waiting their turn to be serviced by one girl. They barely even touch her, let alone care about her pleasure, and everyone looks bored. LAME.
ps. if anyone knows of a video like I've described, post the link!

Wayne @ 42 and all others who are truly interested in history/politics of sexuality…
I'm the one behind post # 23 and am so- like -totally- absolutely- delighted to find out I'm not the only one who's into the historical and political aspect of sexuality, not to mention my very own absolutely- right perspective on it...
As for your post, King David was shagging everyone in sight and he also defined his "friendship" with Jonathan as, "My love to you is wonderful, much more so than loving a woman". And this is the real translation from the original soundtrack, so disregard what you've read on the subtitles.

The bible, at least the Old Testament, is full of the really important stuff.
It should be noted that Sarah couldn't conceive and allowed Abraham (ladies and gentlemen, the original GGG!) to fuck their maid, Hagar, who then gave birth to Ishmael (also known as Ismail) who is believed to be the first Arab.
Later on, after she kicked the maid and her son out (ladies and gentlemen, the original jealous motherfucker wife) and reached menopause, the Big G sent two angels to Sarah to let her know she will soon have a son. She first laughed at them, then thought to herself, “Oh well, what the heck”, screwed them both, and then- WHAT DO YOU KNOW- had a son!!! Isn't it amazing???
And her stupid cuckold husband was willing to slaughter the boy as a sacrifice for G. What a submissive idiot!!!!!!!

I just hope we could all continue pleasing each other, be happy and go on with our lives. I'm sure it will promote world peace.

And speaking of submissive idiots... If you are or know of a lovely Palestinian woman who is interested in an Israeli cross dresser, please let me know... And she can even strap it on every once in a while...

laugh all you want, but that's the ultimate offer for a WORLD PEACE!!!

But unfortunately no one will read this because you're way too busy scolding a smart gay guy whose attempting to positively redefine female sexuality...

Nevertheless, God bless you and plenty of kinky orgasms to all of us.

'@Porn widows are a big and growing segment of the population.

Bullshit. If anyone is "widowed" by porn, it's because their relationship is already dysfunctional. There might be some compulsive porn users that are exceptions, but generally porn is consumed as a side dish, not the main course, in healthy relationships.'

How old are you? 'cause there's a whole generation of internet users growing up thinking facials are first-date material, anal doesn't take any lube and women should shriek then cum within six minutes. Saying porn isn't affecting these kids' lives and perceptions is like saying commercials aren't influencing them (or anyone).

Oh and for the guy whose wife isn't so in to men who want to fuck her and her husband – perhaps it's because she suspects, perhaps correctly, that a lot of guys willing to do this are really just into her husband (and men in general) and simply putting up with her? Not particularly hot.
Women's porn has been available right at the grocery check-out for decades; gown-ripper novels, romance novels, harlequin romances. There's something for everyone. You can get your porn and cupcakes in one stop, its awesome!

Of course, porn flicks are pretty awesome, too, but they were less accessible when I was a teenager....
@86: "You're not making a logical connection between your statements that woman aren't aroused by seeing a man get horny (and yes, they often are, if they think that the arousal is triggered by them; noting is more attractive than feeling desired)..."

NoCuteName, I want you. And I can show it. Shall we get together, seeing as you will arouse me and, going by what you seem to be saying, you are often aroused in reciprocation?

@86: "...and the idea that woman want men who either ogle other women or are unavailable."

I said, "Women do not encourage men who ogle, because they aren't attracted to men who ogle," so I don't seem to need to make the first logical connection you refer to.

As for women's attraction to unavailable men, I again refer to the steady stream of requests for help Dan gets from distressed women trapped in marriages with guys who never had strong sex drives in the first place.

It's just an idea.

@86: "I once had a boyfriend who frankly lusted after every female we saw. But he turned me into the object of all that lust, and I was one happy camper. I loved the evidence of his libido."

Thank you for confirming, as I said, that women "are attracted to men who don't ogle" -- other women. Was that not clear? May I submit the rephrasing?

@86: "Contrary to what you may believe from your obviously skewed reading of this column, women with high libidos don't prefer men with low ones."

I referred to the steady stream of requests for help Dan gets from distressed women trapped in marriages with guys who never had strong sex drives in the first place (am I really asking anyone to take my word that this is what's happening?) as evidence women often "are attracted to men who don't ogle" -- other women.

And I said "According to various articles floating around, a man's unavailability boosts his attractiveness to women."

I never said anyone preferred men with low libidos. I'm saying winding up with a man with a low libido is a consequence of women not thinking far enough ahead about where their default inclinations will take them. Everyone's path has its boobytraps, no?
I can't speak for other women, but porn just doesn't do it for me. I'm not wired visually. Watching other people have sex is rather...tedious actually. However, a properly written romance is a whole other story, so to speak.

ITASP, I can't answer your question, but this is why I'm monogamous. I was trying to read Dan's instructions and it reminded me of that souffle recipe that I just can't face. Way too complicated.
hurray for women who like porn! i watch porn both with and without my partner and have been watching since before he came along. most of the porn i watch on my own is, as Violet Blue suggests above, of a tenor that would not arouse my partner. those private fantasies that i indulge in through porn or in my head while we're fucking, but not the kind of thing that he's into so we don't share that. we share other fun porn and fantasies instead :)
Dan, I'd agree that a stranger lying about many things would not justify a rape conviction - but is there a line to be drawn? What if the person lies about being HIV positive, or having some other STI? What if the person lies about contraceptives? Would you consider any of these scenarios rape, or some kind of assault?
The advice to ITASP sucks. Maybe there was a bit too much editing of the letter, but where does it say the LW was unhappy with his wife's dates? He was expressing concern about her not being that enthusiastic about their MMF sex sessions.

Maybe she doesn't have a particular thing for group sex? I'm poly, and I don't like it AT ALL. Maybe she finds two guys fucking each not that hot? You can find the moment adequately enjoyable in itself, but still not be particularly excited by it. Obviously ITASP REALLY likes these threesomes ... she doesn't. Some people like fucking more than oral sex. Whatever.

As for people who doubt whether they have as many problems finding other couples or women as ITASP professes, it can be hard finding "unicorns" (as women into het couples are labelled). Personally, if I was interested in a woman in an open relationship, I wouldn't consider the guy as part of the package. Maybe ITASP is not particularly attractive and (sorry to stereotype) less-discerning men are just up for whatever they can get, no matter what the package is.

I think ITASP should talk to his wife and if she reiterates the fact that she finds their MMF encounters as "fine", then take that at face value. However, taking away the one valuable point that Dan makes, it's important to check whether THEIR intimate relations are measuring up - it's all very well having adventures with other people, but not at the expense of neglecting your core relationship. If she's preferring the bits-on-the-side over one-on-one with ITASP, that's more of a concern.
I always assumed the female equivalent to porn were those awful "women's interest" magazines like Cosmo and Glamour. Both have pictures of sexy women on the front and they're both full of unrealistic depictions of the opposite sex. Of course, in pornography, women are usually intended to be attractive, where as in women's interest mags, men are portrayed as oafish and childish/childlike.
@107: "As a middle aged, pretty sexually conservative straight woman myself, though, I can't really see the difference - a pleasant little thrill, external to the marriage and no threat to it unless devotion to it excludes the real human being in the bed there with you. Same same."

You rule. Keep on rockin'.

@118 - "How old are you? 'cause there's a whole generation of internet users growing up thinking facials are first-date material, anal doesn't take any lube and women should shriek then cum within six minutes. Saying porn isn't affecting these kids' lives and perceptions is like saying commercials aren't influencing them (or anyone). "

I've heard this complaint before, but it's a pretty myopic view, frankly. There's some apparent presumption here that kids would have a more informed view of sex, or were poised to grow into better lovers, if porn wasn't accessible to them. Kids in the pre-Internet era would just have different dumb ideas about sex - the messages they got about sex came from sources misleading in their own ways (Hollywood movies, freaked-out parents, ignorant high school teachers, etc.)

Which is why the real answer to "Porn is skewing kids' views of sex!" is better sex ed - something that (certain segments of) the US will probably forever be squeamish about, unfortunately.

"And, yes, you should have the authority to do that—both partners in an open relationship should be able to call a time-out."

People in open relationships "should" have the authority to declare things that they may never have discussed or agreed upon? Bullshit. I would find that an unacceptably disrespectful way to be treated. I want my partners to tell me when they're unhappy, and I want them to ask me to dedicate more of my attention to our relationship if need be, and I'd want them to let me know if there was something else they wanted, like a time-out. However, if a partner suddenly decided that they had the "authority" to suddenly announce how things were going to be, I would be extremely upset. That would go against the way we have agreed to treat one another.

It's fine, of course, for a couple to have agreed that either of them can call a time-out! I'm all for people making whatever agreements allow them to have a happy relationship. What's not fine is deciding that it's the default and doesn't need to be agreed upon.
124: "I think ITASP should talk to his wife and if she reiterates the fact that she finds their MMF encounters as "fine", then take that at face value."

I disagree. Clearly she looks so not-into-this that it is messing up the experience for him. Electing to take her at face value is to resign himself to the fact that, while she gets as much hot sex as she can go find, his fantasy fulfillment will just have to be second rate.

They need to discuss exactly what it is about these encounters that she doesn't care for, and either fix that, or find something else to do that both of them can be excited about. Either that, or find something that he can be excited about without involving her. I continue to wonder why that option appears to be off the table for him, even though she gets to do it.

"However, taking away the one valuable point that Dan makes, it's important to check whether THEIR intimate relations are measuring up - it's all very well having adventures with other people, but not at the expense of neglecting your core relationship. If she's preferring the bits-on-the-side over one-on-one with ITASP, that's more of a concern."

I agree with this. He doesn't mention their private sex life at all. But the details that he does include (her dating actively on her own, her preferring her outside dates, her "hotter" partners not wanting to participate, and her acting disinterested during the "occasional" threesomes) creates a pretty clear vibe of "she's into her outside guys, but she isn't into what I'm into, which means she isn't into me." It almost paints the picture that maybe she isn't much into any sex that involves him. That would be a huge problem, and that is what underlies the suggestion that he yanks the emergency brake on all outside sex until they get their own intimacy back on track.
128: Naj, you are hanging up on a semantic quibble.

If your partner told you out of the blue that some unexpected thing was making them unhappy, I would like to think that you would take their concerns seriously, even to the point of calling an immediate halt on whatever it was that was bothering them until the two of you could work through it. That is for all intents and purposes "authority ... to call a time-out."

It's not possible or practical to separately pre-negotiate the option to accept or reject each and every situation that might come up in a relationship. You will find yourself with ridiculous, Byzantine codes of agreement that you can ask to stop Situation A, but you aren't allowed to ask to stop Situation B. What that implies is that in Situation B, your partner's feelings are irrelevant, and you intend to do as you damn well please regardless if they are unhappy. Now THAT is disrespectful. Your partner's feelings should NEVER be irrelevant.

What the default agreement should be is that your partner's opinion matters as much as your own. That's what makes it a partnership. Otherwise it's you and your junior partner.

Don't forget that if you pulled that "you don't have the authority to make do that" crap, your partner can always conclude that you don't care about their feelings, and invoke the "authority" to end the relationship.
Dan's kinks aren't boring but they are normal. He is into smells and clothing, not gross smells and not gross clothing (Leather, sorry dudes).

So he likes it when his man comes home from the gym in a cute gym outfit smelling of sweat.

Not boring, just natural.
I don't understand why everyone is so horrified at the conviction of an Arab man who lied about being Jewish to get into a Jewish woman's pant. In any other legal arena, misrepresenting oneself in order to gain access or consent to someone or something that one would not have been access or consent to otherwise is legally actionable fraud. In paricular, if it occurs with in the context of a marriage contract it is grounds for annullment. Why should ying to get into someone's pants not be considred rape?
130: I disagree. I see a very broad- and important- range in between "authority to call a time-out" and "partner's feelings are irrelevant". Whatever you might like to think about me and my relationships aside, I wouldn't necessarily call an immediate halt to whatever was bothering a partner, no. That doesn't mean I'd ignore their concerns, or that their feelings would be irrelevant!

If the issue was that I was spending a lot of time with a group of friends, and my partner was feeling like she never saw me, that'd be an important thing to pay attention to. I'd start looking at my schedule to see how to fix things and make sure we had enough time together- and we'd negotiate to figure out what "enough time together" looked like to each of us, and possibly need to work out a compromise. What wouldn't happen is for her to announce that she wanted me to immediately stop seeing my friends until we worked out the issue, and tell me that she had the authority to tell me to take a time-out from having friends. That would be inappropriate and a bad sign. This isn't just phrasing; it's phrasing that reflects expectations that are really important in relationships.

Now, the difference between the examples is that in most relationships, people go in expecting each other to have friends but not expecting each other to have other folks they date. Depending on the open relationship, though, that may not hold. My partner and I have always expected that we'd be seeing other people, so for us, it'd be a lot like saying, "I'm uncomfortable, so you should stop having friends until I'm comfy again." That's why I don't think "open relationships should work this way" is reasonable advice when it gets more specific than "people should be good to each other".
I'd also like to point out that Dan has in the past advocated that removing a condom during sex when unprotected sex was consented to was tantamount to rape:

You consented to intercourse with protection, and that asshole deceitfully initiated unprotected intercourse. When a fucker removes a condom during intercourse—gay or straight, vaginal or anal—it invalidates the fuckee's consent to the fucking. (And what is sex without consent, class?) So your "more experienced" boyfriend sexually assaulted you, JC, and placed you at risk of an unplanned pregnancy—and for what? An ever-so-slightly enhanced orgasm for him?…

Why is misrepresenting your ethnic background to gain another's consent to sex not at least analogous?
"Why should lying to get into someone's pants not be considred rape?"

Because it should be considered fraud.

She was entirely free to say no at any time. She decided to say yes. True, it was based on false information, but it was still her decision, freely done. Freely? Hell, recklessly. Having sex with someone within fifteen minutes of meeting them doesn't meet any reasonable standard of due diligence. She did it because she wanted to. That is why it is fraud, and not rape.
i'm a female who is into porn, and for me, it satisfies a curiosity and a turn-on i'm never going to get from my marriage. i enjoy watching gay porn and bisexual porn, and there is no way my husband would ever join me in this. so, it's ALL MINE. i don't care what he's watching...more power to long as we are still having satisfying sex together at a frequency and intensity that makes both of us happy, i couldn't care less what he's watching and/or getting off to (within reason...if it was kiddie porn, i'd feel differently).
@avast2006 (#135)

She was entirely free to say no at any time. She decided to say yes. True, it was based on false information, but it was still her decision, freely done. Freely? Hell, recklessly. Having sex with someone within fifteen minutes of meeting them doesn't meet any reasonable standard of due diligence. She did it because she wanted to. That is why it is fraud, and not rape.

Consent obtained by fraud is not consent.

Do you think the woman whose boyfriend removed his condom during sex was guilty of rape (as Dan implied), even though she had consented to have protected sex with him?

Are women who have sex with men who they have just met asking for "it" (whatever "it" may be)?
OH-MY-GOD!!!!! Dan, you're a GENIUS!!!

Who needs a man when you can have cupcocks???

"Are women who have sex with men who they have just met asking for "it" (whatever "it" may be)?"

Of course not.

If he beat her, that would be battery, and of course she wasn't asking for it. So prosecute him for battery. To the extent that the beating coerced her against her will in the commission of the sex act, that would be battery AND rape. Prosecute for both.
If he threatened her with a knife or with violent words, that would be assault, and of course she wasn't asking for it. Again, the threat would interfere with her ability to say no, so you add rape on top of the assault charge.
If he impregnated her or infected her with a disease, that would be (I'm not sure what the correct charge would be. Reckless endangerment? Battery?) and of course she would not be asking for it. Prosecute him for those.

And if he lied to her, that would be fraud, and of course she wasn't asking for that either. But I don't believe that it was coercive or compromised her ability to resist.

So prosecute him for fraud.

Would you call someone who lied about his age a rapist? How about someone who dressed for a night on the town in a way that implied a higher salary than he actually makes? How about someone where his toupee fell off during sex? A woman could, after the fact, choose literally anything as a criterion without which she never would have consented, whereupon the man becomes a rapist.

Kindly point out where I said she was "asking for it" in any way whatsoever. I said she made an affirmative, though reckless, decision to proceed with sex. Sex is all that occurred, not anything else, "(whatever "it" might be.)" Because the sex occurred as a result of this affirmative decision on her part, not coercion on his part, it wasn't rape.

It was, however, fraud.
I'm a woman. I don't like chocolate or cupcakes. I HATE romance novels and romantic comedies.

But I'm all over the yaoi. I guess I'm a little cliche after all.

P.S. Dan has inspired some PG-rated yaoi of his own:
It probably makes no sense if you don't know the fandom in question (random manga), but still...
I know some of you are allergic to this, but let's play the reverse-the-genders game and see how the situation looks.

A Palestinian woman passed herself off as an Israeli looking for a serious relationship. She introduced herself in this manner to an Israeli man. After approximately fifteen minutes, the two of them retired to a nearby building, and they had sex. Afterwards, the Israeli man discovered that the woman was in fact Palestinian. She was arrested, tried, and convicted of raping the man. "If I had known she was Palestinian at the outset," said the man, "there is no way I ever would have consented to have sex with her."

Well? Did she rape him? Really? Or did he decide to do something fun with her in the heat of the moment, without thinking it through first?

Also, do the unsavory racial overtones shine out any brighter when the genders are reversed?
An alternative to porn for women? Ever read fanfic online? ESp slash - there is a lot of great fic written by women and read by women and I may be wrong but I think the majority o readers and authors are women - and it can be highly erotic and have a plot and romance
I have to agree with avast2006 on this one. People lie to get laid, all the fucking time. They lie about their age, their career success, their relationship status, their emotional investment in the person they want to fuck, their hobbies, their personality, their politics, their religion, and so on ad infinitum. And unless the lie they happen to be telling is something along the lines of "I've got a gun in my pocket and I'll shoot you if you don't take off your pants and lie down on the floor right now," then they aren't guilty of rape. Assholery, yes, but not rape.
To mjpam - are you fucking serious? As if people don't lie to get into someone else's pants all of the time? Really? Of course people do. It's really not always cool and in fact, can be sleazy. But rape? Hell no.

I'm with Dan. You fuck a stranger, you take your chances. Although if said stranger harms you physically, that's an entirely different matter. If he/she just told a lie, too bad for you.
So the basic defense against lying for sex is "everyone does it"?

The fact that the majority of people jaywalk doesn't mean jaywalking is not a crime. (This goes for any illegal action that someone might engage in, lest anyone think I'm trivializing rape by equating it with jaywalking.)
Dan, I think your advice to ITSAP was great. All to often individuals in an open relationship feel they cannot renegotiate the terms, but any healthy relationship should be based on mutual respect and on the ability for all involved to have equal input on the terms of the relationship.

As for the much publicized Arab "Jew imposter" case out of Israel, the real substance of the case has been somewhat distorted in the media for the sake of playing up the Arab-Jewish angle. From interviews I have watched, it seems the main issue for the woman was not that the man was an Arab who purported to be a Jew, but rather that he was a married man who purported to be single and seriously interested in marriage. I think the case is rather bizarre, but Israel has much stricter rape laws than most other countries. Apparently, prosecutions for rape by false pretenses are not uncommon and Jewish perpetrators have been prosecuted under the same statute, too. Personally, I think the prosecution trivializes incidents of real rape (i.e. rape by force or coercion or rape of an incapacitated, elderly/infirmed, minor, or mentally-challenged individual), but I think it is a matter for the Israeli Knesset to deal with through legislative reform. Also, before we get too high and mighty here in the U.S., we should take note of the fact that in a least a few states in the U.S., including California(!), it is possible to be prosecuted for rape under the same legal theory (rape by false pretenses) used to prosecute the man in Israel.
Women have been enjoying our "cupcocks" for decades, and it's called erotic literature. The majority of erotic anthologies and novels are aimed at women, and also written and edited by women.

Lately lots more women are finding the same appeal in gay sex and romance that many straight men find in lesbians. I'm a queer woman who wrote slash (male/male) fanfiction for years, and found out that both the readers and writers are about 95% women (both het and queer). Now the trend is getting more and more mainstream, with publishers like Dreamspinner churning out eBooks and everyone making jokes about some Edward/Jacob action. But it's still predominantly women writing sexy stories about two (or more) male characters getting it on, in order to get other women off.

Most men don't get why we need 2,000 words of foreplay before getting to the action, or why we'd prefer text to XTube. So I think that meets all of Desires Erotic Balance's criteria :)
Women have been enjoying our "cupcocks" for decades, and it's called erotic literature. The majority of erotic anthologies and novels are aimed at women, and also written and edited by women.

Lately lots more women are finding the same appeal in gay sex and romance that many straight men find in lesbians. I'm a queer woman who wrote slash (male/male) fanfiction for years, and found out that both the readers and writers are about 95% women (both het and queer). Now the trend is getting more and more mainstream, with publishers like Dreamspinner churning out eBooks and everyone making jokes about some Edward/Jacob action. But it's still predominantly women writing sexy stories about two (or more) male characters getting it on, in order to get other women off.

Most men don't get why we need 2,000 words of foreplay before getting to the action, or why we'd prefer text to XTube. So I think that meets all of Desires Erotic Balance's criteria :)
To 135, 137, 139, 141, and 143, regarding the Arab men who was sentenced to 18 months in jail for lying about his both identity and marital status….

I’m no legal expert, just an Israeli guy residing in Seattle for the past 25 years. And it is my observation that this case has been blown way out of proportion, and that him being an Arab and her Jewish indeed played a major role.

You may recall my comments about the issue at #23 and #117 if you ever read them, but I think you really need to understand the mentality of the country as well as the discriminating judiciary system.

And just so you know, most comments about that issue came from Israelis who were appalled that a man, an Arab or a Jew for that matter, would be the one to pay the price. This happens to be in an environment were most posts are written by supposedly paid right wingers, but nevertheless many of them sided with the guy stating that women, at least in Israel, often lie about their age, appearance, as well as the use of contraceptive with the hope of getting pregnant and “encourage” the man to marry them.

This is not a happy picture, but the whole thing smells racism. As I often tell soccer players in my hometown, whenever playing or refing co-ed teams, equal rights for women also mean equal duties. And if a man and a woman collide it should be called against the person who caused it regardless of their gender.

Pamela, where the hell are you when I need you?

@140 - HELENA HANDBASKET!!! I adore her work <3
@141 Ok let's play this game. What's the punishment in the Sharia for a woman having pre-marital sex with a non-muslim? Had the situations been reversed she'd be facing much much worse according to her laws than 18 months in prison, and that's before any claims of rape.

Yeah the unsavory racial implications are really unsavory. Unfortunately, I don't think that's what you meant.
That business with Arab-Jewish sexual encounter is an unpleasant one, but the male did lie in order to get a romp in the hay. His motives weren't that great either.
151: Immaterial. We are talking about whether she raped him or not, based on the concept of faulty consent being no consent. What her culture might have to say on the subject of her sexual activities is an entirely separate question. Yes, she might will get killed just for being seen with him unchaperoned -- at which point the question we are discussing, was-HE-raped-by-her-or-not, doesn't even arise. Try to stay on topic.

The racial implications I was referring to was the attitude underlying "I would never fuck a Palestinian." Surely a Jew, of all people, should understand the evils of demonizing another ethnic group. You want to talk about the evils of Sharia law, go right ahead, I'll probably agree with everything you have to say -- but again, it's changing the subject.
I am a married woman who tries to be GGG as much as possible, and I've always been confused about why my husband won't share his porn with me. I know he has porn and uses it, but for some reason it's important for him to hide it from me. I guess maybe for him it is a private thing -- that never occurred to me. I just wanted to share his sexuality with him.

Most porn doesn't do much for me -- I actually find it pretty boring. I do enjoy erotic literature, however, and in contrast to many women who have written in to these comments, I don't enjoy gay erotica -- but lesbian erotica really turns me on. I tried to share this interest with my husband, but it made him very uncomfortable -- also confusing to me. I think I understand, now, that he interprets porn enjoyment as a very private thing, which is OK.
@Gloria - re: "Although I guess that broader definition is a little silly if the word includes the word for "image." Oh well."

actually, "pornography" does not mean image at all. the ending "-graphy" actually pertains to writing or drawing. Pornography is believed to have referred to the practice of prostitutes writing their price list on the wall.

-graphy: recording” or “a writing, recording, or description,” from Gk. -graphia, from graphein “to draw, write,” originally "to scratch" (on clay tablets with a stylus), from PIE base *gerbh- "to scratch, carve"
@155: Hah. Sorry. I knew I should have checked to get the specific etymology. I suppose I figured since the act defined in "-graphy" resulted in pictures, "image" would suffice.

But naturally not. The internet proves me wrong yet again!

Re: prostitutes writing price lists, I find that dubious. But I'd definitely be interested if you can point me to a source that discusses it. Would be a good read.
I was reading books like the "The Happy Hooker" by the time I was 11, and thank GOODNESS I did because otherwise given the way I was raised I'd have never been any fun in bed! I learned a lot from Xaviera's column actually and yeah, reading her started me reading other erotic books and that led me to watching porn and GASP actually liking it.

I still don't care for porn that disrespectful of either gender. Playful S&M is one thing, hard core nasty beatings are another, and I definitely don't want to ever see kids or animals participating in my porn, thank you, but otherwise I have no problem with porn at all. The things that don't particularly turn me in male-oriented porn, like the girl on girl and guy on guy scenes? Well, that's what the FF button is for to keep me from losing my interest at an inopportune time, ahem.

I haven't exactly had a multitude of sexual partners, but those I have had they haven't had any complaints in regards to my erotica collection. Literary, visual, audio, I've got a bit of each actually, and usually once the guy gets over the shock of a woman admitting she likes porn he's fine with it and usually ends up enjoying it with me.

Porn doesn't have to be the enemy. It can enhance a sex life too. Fantasy is fun so long as you remember that reality is always there in the bed with you.
I'm a female in a relationship who pretty much watches porn very often. I could say everyday but then people might think I have a problem. I'm also NOT on xanax or any other anti-depressant. Go figure?
"Tell the wife to stop fucking other people for a while"??? NOT!

Tell your wife you're feeling like you're missing out on the pleasure she's enjoying in her one-on-one encounters with other really hot men, and you'd like to renegotiate the terms of your open relationship. Say that while the two of you are working this out, you'd like the two of you to take a break from having sex with other people.

There's a big difference between ordering her to do this, and requesting it.
Strangest, longest responses ever. I don't get it.
That's not Violet Blue. That's the woman who destroyed someone's career to steal the name, but that's not her.
To Dan Savage --

If you're not familiar with Robert Jensen's work (research and calls to take back power from the porn industry -- to promote our basic humanity), please take a look.

For example:…

I'm so often pleased with your insight into power and privilege (particularly your understanding of heteronormativity) that I felt especially let down with the response to "Desires Erotic Balance."

Advice to "eat cupcakes" and "look at porn" fails to engage gender issues -- issues of power and privilege -- involved in both activities . . . and ignores the fact that many women (and men!) cannot "get off" while supporting the porn industry. What about advice for imagination and lit-erotica and, as this is your specialty, other creative play?

Or, you might have responded to the issue of men getting a "free pass" instead of treating Desires Erotic Balance's post as advice-seeking. I read it as seeking co-complaining and reassessment instead. So, could you reevaluate the free pass?

RE: ITASP, in an open marriage, i always assumed that it didn't matter who the spouse fucks, you can just assume he/she is fucking someone else, but always comes home. Why would husband get to tell wife to stop fucking altogether?... it's an open marriage, for God's sakes.

@ 149 ... i totally agree, it is 100% racism, and anyway, within 30 minutes she was fucking him, so what does that say about her? Race aside, doesn't anyone get to know the other person at all before they decide to swap body fluids????
I can't believe that nobody has mentioned birth control as a revolution in the way that women think of sex of any kind, real or porn.
159: I'm not sure why "Tell the wife to stop fucking other people for a while" implies that it necessarily will be phrased as an order, complete with "Achtung!" at the beginning. On the other hand, just because something is preceded by a "Please" or an "I'd like it if..." doesn't necessarily mean that it is optional.

Certainly, be polite and respectful. But if something is non-negotiable, don't phrase it as if it is. Your newly ex-spouse won't thank you for allowing them to think that it wasn't something they had to take seriously.

163: if a marriage can be opened, it can be closed again, if being open is causing problems. You don't set something in motion if there is no way to apply the brakes when problems crop up.

A marriage is only open if both partners are happy with that. If only one partner is on board, it isn't an open marriage, it's an impending divorce. Saying that you don't get to require changes to the situation leads only to "Fuck this, I'm outta here."
As a man the only only friend I have who I can talk about my emotions, hopes, and feelings with is my wife. My wife is free to talk with all of her girlfriends about these things, because she needs/wants more of this connection than I do. Just like I desire more sex than she does. On average men view more porn and women have more gossip.

The problem is that a sexually-open relationship is much more difficult to navigate for most people. Emotions are tied in with sex, as are feelings of desirability. On some level, I suspect the writer is more concerned that his wife is less interested in *him* than that she's less interested in *threesomes*. Especially if a relationship did not begin open, it's up to both parties to say "the person I'm coming home to is this, so if I have to sacrifice, I'll sacrifice".

Your relationship(s) may work differently, but I've not met many people who can thoroughly divorce sex in a long-term relationship from feelings of love and being desired. Even in most open relationships I've seen or heard of, it's "this is my main relationship, everything else is a side-dish". This gentleman is feeling like he's been moved to being a side-dish, and his wife prefers to have something else for the main course, that's not what he signed up for.

Since those feelings aren't likely to go away until he feels like he's the main-course again, it'd be unfeasible for her to continue sleeping with other guys; he'll still feel like she prefers their hot bods, and that she's only begrudgingly being with him; that's not fair to either of them. It'd be like having a girlfriend who I fairly vocally expressed I preferred spending time with my other female friends. At some point she gets to say "we're going to spend time together now and rebuild this, or we're done".


I can't speak for most men, but I understand the appeal of erotic literature. What we don't understand is why so much of it is sheer crap, yet sells like hotcakes. And, on some level, I think we're not generally as big fans of stuff like fanfiction. I can't substantiate that, but I've known many more girls and women who write fanfiction (or slash, or lemon, ect.) than boys and men.

In the interest of full disclosure I should say that I read the first eight Anita Blake books, and stopped reading when it turned to pure smut. The problem wasn't the smut, it's that it was bad smut. That said, I do think the difference in audience is important, and that it goes back to the point I'm making with a lot of the porn-negative people: the audience makes the product. If more women seemed like a viable porn audience, I have little doubt there would be more porn geared toward them. It's the same issue with comic books (if I may nerd out a bit).


A small quibble, but they're actually likely of the same race. It's why "antisemitism" isn't just "hating Jews".

I do agree, though, that the entire thing has become way more than it should have been. She was not raped, simply lied to. There are cases where fraud leading to sex is rape, but those are limited. The only cases I can think of off the top of my head here in Colorado are ones where someone has impersonated a woman's husband. Lying about age, religion, job, money, breast size, whatever, is all fair game.


I get where you're coming from, and if she agrees to it under that explanation that's great. But he needs to be ready to say "I'm your husband, the guy you want to come home to long-term, and I'm not happy here. If you want the guys with the hot bods, there's the door". Any relationship that becomes open still has to be predicated on the understanding that "this is my main relationship, the actually important one". She violated that.


I think Dan's implicit point was that the "free-pass" so-called should be just as open to anyone in any relationship. So, to that end, it's probably something to take up with a prospective partner.

But, the bigger issue is that you make some basic assumptions with which many people here seem to disagree. I, personally, see nothing inherently against our human rights in the porn industry, it (like everything else) is responding to basic desires and filling a market.

I read Jensen's articles (or as many as I could stomach) and a theme emerged in his interaction with porn in general, and especially with porn actresses: it's inherently wrong, patriarchal, and anti-feminist. He views haranguing women about their choices to appear on Abby Winters as being reasonable because he respects them... Odd that someone who respects women would engage in a tactic similar to the browbeating of women seeking abortions. I'm calling foul.

I will agree that most of pornography is geared toward men, and that should change. There should be a stronger female audience for it, and that would push it away from male-dominated fantasies (please, do remember that it's an industry, not a shady cabal bent on keeping women down, they're out for money, not societal change). Even femdom and other porn showcasing strong female "leads" (for want of better terms) are geared toward some male fantasy. I'll never get the sadistic CBT or "eat your own cum" stuff, but some people must like it.

Is porn exploitative? Maybe. Women are using themselves as a commodity to sell a product to an audience and make money. Of course, the only difference between that, then, and working as a junior associate at a law firm is that the latter is considered at least somewhat prestigious. There's a series of articles you ought to read:…

I think ITSAP sounds kind of pathetic. Why should she lose her fun on the side? It doesn't sound like he puts any effort into getting his own solo dates.
If I were that lady I'd be bummed out.
If DEB wants something for women that really parallels porn for men, it's also going to have to be something that men dump moralistic bullshit all over, and accuse women of being emotionally and socially inadequate for enjoying, and accuse women of hating men because they use, and shame and revile women for, and ...
I agree with Dan in general.
you know- female baboons are the ones with the colorful and flamboyant asses, not the males
women are the ones who paint their lips red, not (usually) guys

it's a psychological fact that males are the more visually-oriented sex, not females

you want female oriented porn? it's called "soap operas" and "romance novels"

utterly abhorrent for the most part

womens' equality doesn't mean you take over male physiology, just our jobs


Romance novels used to be 'women's porn' because it was socially condoned. But as several fellow addicts have already pointed out, a lot of us (especially those who hate romantic novels) have discovered porn. Personally I like stories without a lot of exposition. I wonder how many women are into visual porn compared to pornographic stories...
@169... Damn, dude. Bitter much?
For DEB, I personally love romance novels. My husband thinks it's silly (I wouldn't go so far as to say they repulse him) but he does refer to them as my girl porn. And he is right, a lot of the writing is HOT and I definitely get off on it. Maybe try looking into that? Romance novels make up the largest percentage of book sales so I think a lot of other women enjoy them the way that I do!
Why the hell would anyone classify something as "universally arousing to women?" WTF is that? It sounds like gibberish to say out loud, and if I can get it out at all, I can't stop laughing.

It's probably less funny to talk about things that are "universally arousing to men," but it would mean just as little.

What a bad joke, but it still makes me laugh.
Also, I don't understand this thing called "a free pass." I didn't know anyone needed an OK to like sex, or other things. Who is this free pass given to in exchange for the Thing one likes? One's spouse? (Huh?) Other people of your gender? (Double huh?) Michelle Malkin? I don't think she accepts passes. Although, I have it on good authority that it is still free to try to fantasize about fucking her while she's hanging out over a fourth-floor window.
'It's probably less funny to talk about things that are "universally arousing to men," but it would mean just as little.'

Well, there is Viagra.

My understanding is that Viagra does to women what it does to men, but that not all women connect those sensation with arousal. That's why it seems fair to say from the studies floating around that women experience arousal as an inversion of how men experience it.
@#176 (Mike Leung): I'm a woman and I've tried viagra. First of all, whether in men or women, viagra doesn't affect libido; it affects blood flow. So if a man with no interest in sex takes it, it doesn't give him the interest. He still needs to have desire all on his own. Blood flow and erection dysfunction aren't usually women's problems. The biggest complaint is a low libido, and increased blood flow does nothing for that.

I tried viagra not to try and overcome a dysfunction, but because I was curious about whether it would make my clit more swollen when aroused.

All I can say is that in my case all the blood did gather in one place: my face, which got beet-red and hot for an hour or two. Like a good scientist, I tried viagra again to see if the results I got the first time were repeatable. It happened again.
@169: not a point I've seen made yet, so thanks for saying it. To elaborate, something analogous would have porn titles labeling any man who enjoys sex as a 'slut' or a 'whore'. Women and men both deserve better.

DEB, both men and women are more complicated than the porn industry assumes (I'm basing this on the men I've dated as well on myself and my female friends). It's not that women are more complicated than men, it's that the big corporate sex film industry makes as many stupid assumptions as the big corporate mainstream film industry. However,...

Here's my wish-list of simple things the industry could do to make things more 'universally satisfying' to women. Maybe some producer out there will actually read this.

1) putting the camera where the woman's eyes are. Years of good sex have conditioned me to be really turned on by looking up at a man's abs as he's thrusting away. Since that's a pretty common sex position, I'll bet a lot of women have the same reaction. Not everyone, of course, but a lot. Instead, they show us close-ups of a woman's clit. Meh.

2) the industry needs to stop ruining films in which both actors are obviously enjoying themselves by adding the words 'slut' or 'whore' to the title. These terms alienate 1/3 of the potential viewers (apparently 1/3 of porn viewers are female) by telling us ladies that we should be ashamed of enjoying sex, and that we're victims of sex. They probably also alienate some male viewers. Not a good way to get us to spend our money. I get that some people use these words in the reclaimed, sex-positive, 'ethical slut' sense, but for a lot of us they trigger an instant anger reaction.

3) makers of porn for women have to stop all making their websites entirely pink. Of course some women like that, but there are also a lot of us who hate pink and associate it with being 5 years old. Not exactly the way to turn us on.

4) condoms! Please, please, please use condoms - not only because it makes the actors safer, but also because it helps the viewers associate condoms with being turned on, which promotes increased condom use. I might enjoy a movie a bit more if I didn't have to overcome feeling a bit grossed out by the lack of condoms. Kudos to the makers of gay male vids for being a bit better about this than the makers of the hetero vids.

5) those making porn aimed at women need to give us enough free previews that we know the videos are something we might like rather than something that will anger us. As it is, someone like me making their first foray into watching porn will form opinions based on the free stuff in places like rawtube, and decide that there's no way we're spending money on that crap.

6) there are a bunch of us understandably uncomfortable with having some porn company's name on our credit card statements. What if we could pay cash at a female-friendly sex shop like Womyn's Ware to set up a nice, confidential, no-names-attached paypal-type account for online porn?

7) this one's gender-neutral: set up feature-based rather than category-based websites. For example, I'd be searching for things in which condoms were used, and things with erect rather than floppy wrinkly penises, things in which the woman's pleasure was audible, things in which the man's pleasure was audible, and excluding anything with the words 'slut' 'whore' or 'pussy' and anything in which the man is overweight (don't worry guys, some women I know love a buddha belly - I'm just not one of 'em).

to D.E.B.
I just wanted to mention Yaoi or Boys Love graphic novels/manga because this genre has a huge female fan following I personally enjoy it as porn/erotica and perhaps I should mention I am a mostly straight open minded female. ^-^ and if that doesn't flot it for you there's always harlequin romance novels. My mom has boxs full of them.
@53 I got as far as your comment and have to say, "I agree"!

Although my libido has diminished significantly post-menopause, I am still turned on by both written and filmed porn, including animated. I very much enjoy gay porn (prefer watching men to women) and written, homoerotic slash fiction as well.

I don't have to have visuals. I have a very active mental fantasy life, engaging in directed dreaming where I compose elaborate slash stories for myself. I have dabbled in writing them down, but find I am not particularly good at that. I've found many excellent writers online, thank goodness.

It was always hard to find any straight porn videos that appealed to me. As others here have said, 99.99% of straight video porn is still skewed towards the type of men who spent the most money on it. I used the past tense on purpose. I'm hoping wider online access and more women customers, the product will improve.

Perhaps most men do like that robot-like, generally degrading to women stuff to jackoff to? I just have a suspicion many would be more pleased with porn closer to something women would also like better.

I have always wished I was rich enough to start my own porn film business to create what pleases me - and see if my theory held up.

@#177 (NoCuteName): "I'm a woman and I've tried viagra. First of all, whether in men or women, viagra doesn't affect libido; it affects blood flow. So if a man with no interest in sex takes it, it doesn't give him the interest."

The comment I was responding to was what makes for "universally arousing to men." If his penis is turgid, I don't think the guy you're referring to is going to deny he's aroused, which was what I was talking about.

As for your libido qualifier, yes, there are circumstances in which men with erections get frustrated.

@#177 (NoCuteName): "The biggest complaint is a low [female] libido, and increased blood flow does nothing for that."

You seem to be confirming what I've been saying.

@#177 (NoCuteName): "I tried viagra not to try and overcome a dysfunction, but because I was curious about whether it would make my clit more swollen when aroused.

"All I can say is that in my case all the blood did gather in one place: my face, which got beet-red and hot for an hour or two. Like a good scientist, I tried viagra again to see if the results I got the first time were repeatable. It happened again."

Well, guys' faces get hot when they're aroused too.
@116: I had the same experience as you; I long had a fantasy of having a couple of guys (double the cuddles plus double the cock - yay!), and was disappointed by the gangbang title. 'group sex' and 'bicurious' are a bit better. I've found the most evidence of the actors mutually enjoying each other in the 'interracial' category, although you have to suppress your annoyance that the guys are being objectified so much for their 'big black cocks'. But since, like me, the actors don't consider it taboo at all, they just see the scene as a chance to have sex with hot people, and tend to enjoy themselves. I found one gem where one of the guys started off by going down on the lady. She (missy monroe) was so turned on she was leaking a bit and left a puddle on the bed, and she showed how my fantasy of two cocks in the vagina is possible. I haven't been able to find it again though. Somewhere on rawtube in the middle of all the lame and offensive stuff. What I really wanna see is a scene like that where the guys are hot for each other, and stealing the odd kiss over the woman's shoulder. Mmmm...
I'd have to mark slash as the #1 thing that turns girls on but repulses guys. Erotica + romance + gayness = win. Even gay guys aren't really into it.

Hey, and how about linking some actual porn women would be into instead of some blog/hand-holding site?
Oh, and by slash, I guess that also encompasses yaoi/boys love/whatever.
@184--beat me to it. I was gonna say slash fan fiction=girl porn. And believe me, almost all the women I know either watch or read porn (meaning, romance novels or fan fiction with the intention of getting off).
So, Dan, you prefer eclairs then?
@182 Missy Monroe is an enthusiastic performer of double penetration, and likes it enough to do it on porn sets during the breaks between filming. You can see this occasionally in her behind the scenes footage. If double vaginal penetration is your interest, there is a line of movies just for this called, oddly enough, Double Vag. Missy is on the cover for the first one, Double Vag #1. I can't help you in terms of finding threesomes where the guys kiss each other, but if you find movies with Steve Holmes and Eric Everhard, they often kiss the women. This is especially true of Steve Holmes. Here is a link to Missy's Videography, it will show you which scenes she has done with double penetration, double vag and so on. She is definitely a good person to start with when you look for these scenes because she likes it so much.…
Ok, I'm a woman and I just want to go on the record to say that I like what is known as "male oriented porn", and I like it alot. But as anonymously as possible. I am terrified...make that stark ravingly terrified, of the social stigma of admitting it. That is what I can't handle. Men creepily assume that I want to have sex with them, and women throw it in my face. A friend who loaned a couple of tapes to me announced, to a large audience of friends, that I watched porn, and was his "porn buddy". Whatever that means, I was not. Sooooo, I quickly learned to tiptoe around it, even with boyfriends (again, shocked reactions) and will NEVER publicly admit to it. For all I know, 30% of the female populace is just like me, but we'll never know until the brutal social stigma eases up. And I sure as hell am not brave enough to do more than write this post.
@145 So the basic defense against lying for sex is "everyone does it"?

No, it's a basic defense against rape, which is about reasonable consent. It doesn't mean full disclosure otherwise the human race would die out.

If you want to redefine what rape means to include all lying, evasions, half-truths and unverifiable interpretations of what one person said to another, you're in an impossible minefield. And you would have to accept that cases of fraud such as a woman failing to inform a man that a child might not be his - in which case he would unlikely wish to continue having sex with the woman but has been caused to do so by lies, are not only fraudulent but also rape.
Seriously, after all the multiple kinks that this site has mentioned over many years, it's Romance Novels that get an 'eww'?

For anyone that hasn't read a romance novel since the 80's when it was all Fabio all the time on the covers, the romance market has come a huge way. It's not just historical or those crazy Harlequin books with titles like, "Prince's Virgin Mistress' secret baby", Romance novels come in all genre's - Suspense, Thriller, Paranormal, Sci-Fi, Fantasy, Mystery, Comedy, Horror - I'm sure you get the point.

Also, digital publishing has opened up many niche markets, and that does include erotica and erotic romance. As an aside, M/M is huge in the erotic market and you can find many quality offerings if that is your interest.

As with any entertainment, some crap does indeed get through, and yes, the whole 'Virgin Mistress' segment of romance does still exist (why not, there is a market that enjoys it. Shouldn't they be able to enjoy what brings a little kick to their life?) That said, anyone who simply dismisses Romance Novels out of hand is just being an elite snob with an "I'm better than this" type attitude, and seriously, since we are all on the Savage comment section, can any of us truly pull off that attitude?
personally, as a female in a loving relationship with a male, i have no problem with porn. as long as it's in moderation. i live in a different state than my boyfriend so i need something to hold me over til i see him again. while i enjoy pics & vids sometimes, i much prefer erotic stories because you can imagine whatever you like about the people. it can conform to your turn-ons. my go-to site is but there are others. i think you should just find what you like :)
I'm a bisexual woman and "younger", I'm 20. Romance novels SUCK. TOO MUCH PLOT and so poorly written. Same goes for almost all erotica. I just want a dick going into a pussy. I get turned on by sex, hardcore sex. I don't get turned on by feeling that the man "desires" the woman other than he wants his dick in the pussy. Sex isn't always about love, for me it's mostly about SEX! I don't project myself into the female's body. And since I'm bi, I totally perv off the hot females. Big boobs, tight twats and ass, etc. Actually, since I'm in a relationship with a man right now, porn probably satisfies my yearning for female bodies. It was interesting reading most of the comments and only catching a few scattered comments that reflect how I feel about porn. Porn doesn't disgust me unless it totally looks super exploitational (kiddie porn for example). Everyone has different things that turn them on. For me, I usually feel like I'm wired more like a dude, my boyfriend says I have the libido of three men! So hardcore porn works for me and not for others. Don't get rid of it!
@188: except that she's used titles like 'filthy whore', which totally ruins it for me. Calling me a whore is not a good way to ask for my money. Can't they figure out that insulting a potential customer is bad marketing? This is the big problem with the porn industry. It's incredibly sexist.
I love the people who are defending the woman who accused a man of rape, for lying to her to get into her pants. I have to wonder a few things, and would love it if these people would post their answers:

1) would you support the prosecution for rape, and jail time, of everyone who has told a lie to get sex? If so would you help me prosecute three women I had sex with? One told me she was unmarried; she was lying. Another told me she was STD-free; she had herpes. The third told me that she was a Unitarian, because she had misunderstood and thought I was; later she told me over drinks that she had no idea what a Unitarian was. I still have their contact information... I'm thinking of calling the police and accusing all three of rape. God it would be satisfying to see all three in jail . (Oh, excuse me, I'm sounding like that Israeli woman again.) At the very least I could get them labeled sex criminals.

2) Would you be just as happy to see a Jew convicted of rape if if he/she lies to an Arab about her ethnicity or religion? What, you wouldn't? Funny thing... or do I detect the stench of Arab-hating in your postings...

3) I would love, love, LOVE to see a Jewish man or woman accuse an American Christian of rape in the same circumstances, and see an Israeli court deliver a guilty verdict. But that'll happen when several hells freeze over.

4) While we're passing ridiculous laws and expanding the definitions of rape to include everything short of sex without a notarized consent form, let's not leave out the radical Vegans who have been insisting that eating eggs is a form of rape, presumably because the chicken that laid them didn't give its written consent. (I am not exaggerating... as somebody or other once said, he who laughs has not yet heard the terrible news...)
About the Jewish woman, I can understand that she might feel upset, but really? Must we prosecute every man or woman who lies to a potential sex partner? What about once you're in a relationship? I told my fiance that I don't hate his cat. I totally hate his cat. Am I raping him every time we have sex?
The Arab man said that he was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious relationship, but the only thing he could have been prosecuted for is for saying he was Jewish. You can't determine whether or not he was interested in a serious relationship. Maybe he was, but then he decided he didn't like her anymore. Or maybe he was interested in a serious relationship someday, but at the moment was just playing around.
Suppose that, thirty years down the road, my fiance and I get divorced (because I'm hoping we'll have gotten married by then. Thirty year engagements=not cool). In our wedding vows, we're going to say the whole, "'Til death do us part" thing. Does that mean that we've been raping each other for thirty years, because we said that we were going to be together until we died, but that turned out to be a lie? It's just impossible to judge that kind of thing.
Don't get me wrong, the guy's a douche, but he's not a rapist. And if we went around locking up all the douches in the world, I would be out of a job--our customers would all be in jail, and so would about half the managers--and then I wouldn't be able to get Internet and read Savage Love.
Fan-fiction, Dan. Fan-fiction is women's porn.
Are we really calling it yaoi? The last time I heard slash referred to that way was 5 years ago at least. Its a bit like hearing "Information superhighway."

The thing I love about fanfiction is that theres so much diversity in it. With erotic novels theres going to be little plot and a ton of porn, with romance novels its going to be all (cheesy, terribly written) plot and little (cheesy, terribly written) porn. With fic, if you get in the right communities or read the right authors, you can find both kick ass stories and writing as well as amazing porn with every kink you could imagine. And, unlike literotica, there tend to be rec sites to tell you where the good stuff is (and its not, oh god)… is a good place to get started
It seems a little odd to me that the readership of a Gay man's sex advice column would fall victim to pre-prescribed notions of what "men" and "women" are like. I have a male friend in the sex trade who could tell you a lot of things women do (most commonly, ask him to pretend to be their son, or a kid they met in high school) that would repulse men and are external to their relationships.

Since women are supposedly more interested in emotional relationships than men ( who are incredibly oversexed in opposition to the apparently sexual drive-less women wandering around hating porn, men, and the entire thought of orgasm, which they will only endure if money is involved, or a ring if I am to understand these normative statements) I would suggest emotional relationships with other men as an alternative.

Hand holding, cheek kissing, snuggling up and watching a movie, even sleeping beside other naked men who are external to the "relationship". There's a great song about this "gay boyfriend" Youtube it. :D

For the record, if I want to see a couple of crack whores fuck for money, I'll go downtown and at least make a direct payment. I hear they even take debit....ha,ha.

Interestingly enough, historically women were viewed as so highly oversexed that one had to cover the table legs to ensure the wife wouldn't shove everything in the house, in her. Women were dirty, filthy creatures constantly looking for their next orgasmic "fix" while men were civilized intelligent creatures, incapable of...sound familiar? Only backward?

By the Libertine revolution the world had realized that women, too, had a sexuality. In fact, ladies of the internet, if you are really interested in verbal pornography, with a female focus, I suggest looking up John Wilmot. Read "The Imperfect Enjoyment", a premature ejaculation poem from simpler times when men weren't pompous asses who were incapable of admitting their own flaws and the sexuality of women, and when women were human beings not fake princesses or little children on billboards. An excerpt:
"Then, with a thousand kisses wandering oer; my panting bosom: is there then no more? All this to love and rapture's due: must we not pay a debt to pleasure, too?...but I, the most forlorn, lost man alive, to show my wish'd obedience vainly strive"

Gets me off. But hey, I'm not ashamed that the thought of an adoring-but-helpless-to-please man in a society where women are portrayed as helpless, hapless, sexless, and external, turns me the hell on.

God people, if you're going to have a discussion, stop being so damned superficial. And Dan, you are the most conservative gay man I've ever heard of. Cupcakes? wtf?

Who gives a crap about porn? My fiancee and I have a lot of sex, and when we can't access eachother we find a private place like a bathroom and text eachother nude porn. Or he sends me a picture of himself in the gym shower, while I'm in class. Does nobody enjoy their own relationship, or have a modicum of creativity anymore? Are we really so superficial that delving the full depths of another human being has been dumbed down to finding someone with a different pair of tits who we can rub ourselves up against? Has the entire complicated beauty and intimacy of sex been reduced to a bodilly function for you fuckheads? Gawwd!
@200 Western womens' diet changed considerably in the last century or two. It changed the typical female libido from much stronger than a man's to much weaker than a man's. That's the reason for that historical puzzle.
@198 Jon/Stephen :)

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