"Sorry, L.R., but so long as you support the denial of marriage rights to same-sex couples, it's clear that you do believe that some people—straight people—are "better or more worthy" than others."
And as long as there are people out there who support the denial of a man's right to engage in acts of lesbian sex or a Caucasian American's right to be called an African American, it shall remain clear that our society hasn't shaken off the belief that some people are "more female or more African than others."
Please. I would support any proposed changes to the laws of my state which would amend the existing legal institution of "marriage" by extending its scope to include pairs of consenting adults of the same gender, along with those whose genders are opposite.
In other words, if my community as a whole decided that it wanted to extend not only the legal conventions associated with marriage (i.e. those relating to tax, next of kin benefits and responsibilities, etc) to cover same-sex partnerships, but that it also wanted to effect a de facto modification of the collective lexicon (via a modification of the legal lexicon, in regards to an institution whose provision, and therefore whose lexical determination, is subject to government monopoly), I would support such a change.
But let's be honest about this: the top-down imposition of a modification in the collective lexical conventions surrounding the terminology relating to the (rather ancient) tradition of "marriage" is the only objective unique to the same-sex marriage movement, beyond a movement aimed at securing the universality of legally parallel (but differently-named) domestic partnerships.
Couching the movement in the terms of the Civil Rights movement is intellectually sloppy at best. At worst, it is a cynical attempt to portray all opponents as bigots.
"Separate but equal" carried substantive legal implications during the civil rights era—two kids living in the same public school district would have been consigned to attending two different schools, perhaps differing greatly in any given measure of quality, only because of differences in skin color. Thus the two separate institutions, to which the law differentially assigned these two kids solely on the basis of race, may have been far from equal in many legally significant senses.
Alternatively, if "domestic partnerships" with the full legal force of "marriages" were made universal, the two institutions would be TRULY separate but equal. Which brings me back to my second paragraph...
The oft-heard comparisons between the civil rights movement and the same-sex marriage movement (as distinct from a movement to universalize domestic partnerships) would be merited if the civil rights movement had sought to erase ethnic classifications altogether, mandating not only that "Caucasian" and "African-American" kids not be assigned to different public schools on the basis of race, but also that they must all be classified as "Caucasian Americans." Proponents of same-sex marriage, after all, insist that same-sex partners not only be allowed to enter into institutions which not only enjoy identical legal treatment as those occupied by opposite-sex partners, but that the same word be used to refer to all such partnerships.
Now back to the denial of lesbian sex rights. A consenting male adult has the legal right to engage in sexual activities of his choosing with a consenting adult partner—since 2003, anyway. But to say that he has a right to engage in lesbian sex would just be silly. In this example, it should be obvious that there are no "rights" involved, but only a contradiction in the terms used. Invoking the idea of rights here would make sense only if the legal meaning of the term "lesbian sex" were to change, such that it became sufficiently general to refer to all sexual activities. At that point, every consenting adult would have a legal "right" to engage in "lesbian sex."
But, given present lexical conventions, to assert that a man's "lesbian sex rights" are being denied would be an absurdity, regardless of specific context. And, according to present (legal and broader societal) conventions regarding the term "marriage," it is similarly silly to insist that a same-sex couple's "marriage rights" are violated if they are able to enter into a legally recognized partnership which carries the full legal force of marriage, but is called something different.
That is not to say that there is anything wrong with having community-wide conversations about changing lexical conventions—language is, after all, a highly dynamic set of arbitrarily related symbols and predicates. And domestic partnerships with the full legal force of marriage are presently far from universal in the USA, so there is certainly room for continued advocacy in the furtherance of this cause.
But for god's sake, if the sakes of intellectual clarity and honesty aren't quite good enough, please quit with the gay marriage-civil rights comparisons which implicitly equate the two movements, as they are substantively quite dissimilar; and let’s talk start talking about why we believe that same-sex and opposite-sex unions should both be called marriages, rather than lobbing out crude assertions of “denial of marriage rights.”
This is your typical rubish from Savage. Who conviniently ignores the fact that all sorts of people get bullied. But I guess that to acknowledge it would be interfere with Savage's need to play the victim, and his own anti-Christian bigotry.
Yep, same old nonsense from Dan Savage. I saw a video from him on Youtube where he claims to have read the Bible 'cover to cover'. Well if that is the case he must have read how the Bible speaks out against drunkeness, adultery, fornication and laziness. But strangely these people don't get beaten up. Not sure why LR wrote him saying her/his feelings were hurt. Anyone familiar with Savage will know that he's unpleasant and obnoxious.Dan Savage is attention seeking anti-Christian bigot.
Yep, same old nonsense from Dan Savage. I saw a video from him on Youtube where he claims to have read the Bible 'cover to cover'. Well if that is the case he must have read how the Bible speaks out against drunkeness, adultery, fornication and laziness. But strangely these people don't get beaten up. Dan Savage is attention seeking anti-Christian bigot
Dan, THANK YOU for saying this [taking soi-disant "loving Christians" to task for the consequences of their insitutiionalized homophobia]. Children killing themselves is the result, and if they REALLY don't want to contribute to kids being bullied into suicide, they shouldn't be homophobic, and have no business denying gay Americans the right to marry whom they choose.
I've been reading your articles for years now. I must say you're absolutely brillant. I only wish everyone were as strong as you are with your voiceful thoughts and views. Hate crimes MUST come to a stop. OUR YOUTH NEEDS BETTER GUIDANCE! And it is people like YOU who make a difference. You have a voice for those who are too afraid to speak. You are the gay communities fearless leader, and I wish you the best. If it weren't for people like you, there would be no hope.
Thank you,
Patty from Pittsburgh
For LGBT teens, in addition to "it gets better," which it does, another message: don't give the assholes the satisfaction. What they want is a world with no queers in it. Just by staying here, you're depriving them of what they want. I remember a rabbi in Nashville who wrote in response to a Christian minister who called for increased efforts to convert Jews. He said there is undoubtedly a vast difference in their methods, but the ultimate goal of modern Christians is no different from that of the Nazis: a world with no Jews. Same goes for modern Christians and queers. They want us all to disappear, whether through suicide, "ex-gay" therapy, whatever works. Stick around and piss 'em off.
not sure if you know about this yet dan but I thought you should...a school that is encouraging bullying of gay students by putting out a msg that being openly gay is wrong... http://gayrights.change.org/blog/view/ar…
I want to echo the support and applause for your letter to LR. Your compassion for these isolated children is so inspiring. After reading your letter I folowed through on my earlier idea to forward your response, and the links to the It Gets Better Project, to my gay twin sister asking her to contribute a video, as well as an email to a few members of the Safe Schools Project that operates in Portland, OR, working towards lessening bullying towards GLBTQ kids in school. I wanted to tell you that your voice and message not only reaches the deaf "followers of Christ" like LR, but also the Christians and non-Christians and would-be activists who recognize the truth of what you're saying, the desperate isolation and need of these kids to hear and see positive gay role models. Your work is inspiring not only new thought in some, but real action in others and letting the kids who need to hear it most realize that they are not alone. Thank you.
Bravo.
There's a key fact this dingbat letter-writer skips. She chose her religion. Even if it's 'what she was brought up with', as people often excuse their hate, it's something she chose to accept rather than reject.
So to equate someone attacking the actions of her Church with physically attacking gay teens, or queer hate speech, is literally insane. It shows what she's been told about lgbt people making "choices" about their lives as well.
I will not begrudge anyone they're religion. I certainly have my spiritual moments where all I want is a Torah and a prayer shawl and a community. And there's a reason excommunication used to be a big deal- for lots of people religion is their main community, which is certainly a human need.
However, I will begrudge people "hate". I attack some denominations of my religion for their stances and practices, too- they may say "hate the sin, love the sinner", but labeling someone a "sinner" for their existence leads to a sense of "it's ok to think that some people don't deserve respect."
I want to note that a friend of mine mentioned that so much teen suicide goes unnoticed, and she resented that it was only when it was lgbt teens and hate crimes that it became big news. On the one hand, I see what she means- I was harassed terribly in school. To the point where I felt bad for the teachers who had to have me in class.The antisemitism part was just as bad from teachers as students. And my home life was abusive as well. I still have real damage, both physical and emotional, from what I went through. And you bet there were suicide attempts.
But here's the thing: it SHOULD be news that kids are harassing each other to this extent, as well as the fact that hate and homophobia are so on the rise. Expecting kids to "grow up" so young has not worked. Because ALL it's done is made things inhuman. Everything is just unilateral rules and codes and standardization.
College entrance gets more competitive to where my 31 year old sister who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Brown could never have gotten in now, because the process has nothing to do with intellect, but formatting CVs and training to apply the right way.
We've built huge industries on making sure that there is no aspect of life that is based on who an individual is, and assessing and praising or helping them based on that. And the educational realm is one of the saddest examples. Add that to the early-onset of physical maturity and increased adreinaline that they're brain isn't yet physically ready for- and it's not surprising that they don't see anyone, even themselves, as human, and therefore intrinsically deserving of love and respect.
I also say to those teens being bullied: "It gets better" doesn't dismiss your pain now. That is valid too- we're so often told that things that affect us when we're young don't matter- that until you're an adult, nothing you do or feel has any effect.
But your hurt is valid, and your anger. It will get better, but only if you don't also judge yourself for hurting, and keep enough distance to see that there WOULD be something wrong with you if you didn't care- you'd be just as callous as them.
Of course, you also have to remember that they're young too, and under influences they probably don't realize they're under. Their actions matter a whole lot more, but you'll keep your sanity a little better if you remember that we're all human. even the bad ones.
Thank you so much for starting the "It gets better series." I know people who have started their own independent version because of it, and I believe its doing a lot of good. Wish someone had been there to tell me it gets better when I got expelled from high school for being gay.
In reading these comments I'm seeing a lot of people attack bigotry with bigotry. Real classy.
When a Christian tells you they support gay marrage and gay adoption you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian tells you Christ told us not to judge but to love one another, you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian says a true translation of the offending passages isn't even close to what the haters recite, you tell them to fuck off.
I've even seen comments saying "good Christians" need to accept this vile behavior because of the sins of others. By this logic Pat Robertson has the right to hold gay people and their supporters responsible for the behavior of any gay person who has molested a child.
Almost forgot: All the asshole-Christians out there need to shut the fuck up and read their damn Bible or once. Not just read it, but study it thoroughly. Use more than one translation. Study Hebrew and/or Greek if it helps.
Your fuckery is making it harder for those of us who get it.
For a real wordy, back-patting dude trying to come off sounding like he knows it all, you really ought to check your facts. Domestic partnerships are legal in New Jersey with all the rights and benefits of marriage. And guess what...big surprise...turns out without it being called marriage, it's different. So yeah, to be equal, it has to be equal.
"wordy" is fair...hence the name I chose for myself. But I don't see how any fact-checking is called for here, as I never claimed that domestic partnerships have not yet been established anywhere--just that they are presently far from universal in the USA.
Otherwise, my main point was just that sloppy arguments don't help anyone.
Personally, I'd love to see same-sex marriages become legal in every state in the US--but I don't believe that embracing the rather popular (sadly) tendency to portray any undesirable legislative stance as a civil rights violation is bringing us any closer to that goal. All it does is make everyone a little bit dumber and sharply reinforce awareness of group identity distinctions.
There you go, people should stop bullying gays and start bullying Christians. That will work. ?? Jesus (if you believe), made the Jewish laws of the OT obsolete. He promoted social justice and equality. I want to go back to school to become a social worker. Most of my desire comes from the example of Jesus. He saw something special in everyone. I too see something special in all the people I work with in both a job teaching dance and volunteering with teenage moms. I have commited several of the sins that he told us not to do (and he never mentions anything about homosexuality BTW). Who am I to judge anyone? I also teach my kids to not be judgemental. Love your neighbor as yourself. That is what I try to do above all.
I am ANTI-bullying. Not gays, not Christians, not anyone just because you don't understand or agree with who they are.
Kill me now so I don't have to deal with your hate.
It doesn't matter who I am, what my sexual orientation is, what my religion is, what the color of my skin is.
I'd still rather die than have to experience, see, feel everyone's hatred every day for the rest of my life.
At 325: Count me out of that "all of you". I'm sorry you're experiencing such hatred right now, I just don't want to be included amongst the haters when I don't even know who you are. Chances are you're cool, and I feel bad you're in such pain. I hope you can connect with people who support you and that you can realize that the assholes who are making you miserable right now don't own the world.
Hey Dan, why not start a movement for all the fat kids that are tormented by their peers, torment that you are "partially responsible" for because of your anti-fat comments. You could call said program: "It NEVER gets better".
I have finally had it. I can't sit back and watch this anymore. I have to say what I have to say, and although some of the language I use may not line up with my belief system, oh well, thems the breaks. God is either going to forgive me of turn me into a pile of lightning-struck goo. So here goes...
Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn't want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn't believe me, or there wasn't enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he'd moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he's up there fucking deer.
What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I'm just going to sit by and say "Oh, that's okay. What happened to me isn't important.", then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an "I'm sorry for what happened to you". Sadly, I don't think anyone ever will.
Sorry, but your bullshit doesn't fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don't! PROVE that I don't. You can't!
In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called 'rights'. Unless someone wants to tell me "I'm genuinely sorry", I don't want to hear it.
I have finally had it. I can't sit back and watch this anymore. I have to say what I have to say, and although some of the language I use may not line up with my belief system, oh well, thems the breaks. God is either going to forgive me of turn me into a pile of lightning-struck goo. So here goes...
Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn't want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn't believe me, or there wasn't enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he'd moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he's up there fucking deer.
What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I'm just going to sit by and say "Oh, that's okay. What happened to me isn't important.", then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an "I'm sorry for what happened to you". Sadly, I don't think anyone ever will.
Sorry, but your bullshit doesn't fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don't! PROVE that I don't. You can't!
In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called 'rights'. Unless someone wants to tell me "I'm genuinely sorry", I don't want to hear it.
"I'm sorry, but there are no "good Christians." The so-called good Christians are what make the bad Christians possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.
If you think of yourself as a "good Christian" who supports gay rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Christian.
As much as I hate bigoted, anti-gay Christians, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of gay rights."
Just wanted to say this statement from Blackrose is dangerously ignorant and intolerant.
I am, personally, atheist/agnostic, but I find this comment to be irresponsible. Here - let's change a few words and see how it looks now:
---
I'm sorry, but there are no "good Muslims." The so-called good Muslims are what make the bad Muslims possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.
If you think of yourself as a "good Muslim" who supports human rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Muslim.
As much as I hate Muslim extremists, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of human rights.
@Black Rose
I'm a non-Christian who believe you can be a good, gay-loving Christian. I don't believe EVERYTHING my good book says, but that doesn't mean I don't believe at all. It's not all or nothing. I know it was written by man, not by God, and man has a way of villifying things. So, I pray, I fast, I am kind to others, I believe that all people are equal and God doesn't condemn people for their sexual preference...and I know many Christians in this great, truly free country of Canada who believe the same thing.
Oh yeah, and our beer is WAY better :)
Really.
History of human beings: Create something to follow
Egyptians, Greeks, etc
I mean really? You are whatever religion you are because your parents were. So should you be a whatever profession they were too?
Every culture has created some form of religion throughout history.
This version has taken over because they figured out the fear aspect of it. Believe or spend eternity watching Glen Beck shows, or burning in hell.
come on people,
think
what good has come?
wars
bigotry
poverty (go look at the Vatican, and then realize how many people starve to death in the world - ridiculous)
think
control, that is all. you are a fool to think otherwise.
have you 'seen' one scrap of proof in you life that ANY of these stories are true?
That was rape, nothing else. It doesn't make homosexual sex wrong though. Just like the countless man-on-woman rapes every day make straight sex wrong. They make rape wrong. Consenting sex, gay or straight, is not wrong. Rape is not consent.
Again, I am truly sorry for what happened to you, no child, no teen, no adult deserves to be forced to perform any kind of sex act. I hope you find a way to stop hurting.
I married a man 40 or so years ago whom I thought was straight – true times were different back then, but the societal pressures still unfortunately exist that encourage some people to hide their sexuality.
Your advice to the woman engaged to the confused or homophobic man was right on. In addition I would like to say to her – she is not a bitch for digging deeper, protecting herself and being smart about the situation. I still love my ex husband and the father of my children, but I don’t want to be married to him nor he to me. He has been exclusively in gay relationships ever since we split in the early 70’s.
One more thought – I believe your strong language, Dan, is called for (you are obviously passionate on the subject) and it does not offend me, however, if you are trying to
ease the suffering of these young people and change people’s behavior – I would guess the language is offensive to just the people
whose minds we are trying to change.
In turn that allows them to dismiss the important part of the message.
All I can say is, if Dan and those commenting here are even relatively representative of the homosexual community, then it is a very good thing that the second amendment is enshrined in the bill of rights. Keep that in mind if or when you guys finally do gain power and show up at the doors of those who do not "approve."
This forum gives credence to the opinion that homosexuals are radically dangerous freaks.
As a gay man and the son of a preacherman, I was extremely disappointed in the way the "GAY KIDS ARE DYING, FUCK YOUR FEELINGS" letter was handled. It truly could have been an opportunity to open a legitimate dialogue between the gay community and the Christian community, which needs to happen in order for things to get better.
This US VS. THEM mentality hasn't EVER been productive.
Not all of the "faithful Christians" cling to "dehumanizing bigotries" and it just isn't fair to say that. It seems that you have a pulpit, Dan Savage. You have a voice and can reach so many people with a message of hope for the future. But what I read in this column today was a missed opportunity written with bitter subtext. The "faithful Christians" are never going to agree with us and they don't have to. We need a way to reconcile Christianity and homosexuality - Tammy Faye style. She was a gay advocate who didn't support marriage rights.
It's not responsible to encourage "mocking, hurting or intimidating" on EITHER side.
We're all in this together. The Bible even has a verse that can be used as a direct message to these gay, Christian kids who are conflicted about what they've been told and who they are: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." - Jeremiah 29:11
What little sympathy I had has vaporized after reading many of the comments. I think Psychiatry had it right up until 1973 when it treated homosexuality as an illness. The comments here convince me,that more than a mental illness, homosexuality is most likely demoniacally induced.Hate God and die in your sins. You get to choose.
According to the CDC's Youth Risk Behavior Survey, "Gay students are more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 -- that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)"
Maybe being made fun of isn't the reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe being gay is a result of abuse, and maybe gay suicide rates are an effect of being gay.
Not sure why this comment didn't make it, but here it is again...
According to the CDC's (the Center for Disease Contol) Youth Risk Behavior Survey, Gay students are also more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 -- that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)
Maybe being made fun of isn't the real reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe abuse is the reason many turn gay, and maybe gay suicide rates are a result of being gay.
Ranger Rick: CLEARLY, you were never bullied as a young person. Bullying, the mob mentality, is terrifying. You can be afraid to leave the house, become depressed, avoid social contact & start to believe your tormentors are right; you must be not worth anything, because so many other (clearly better, more successful) people, are saying you're a loser.
I'd like to see your statistics about gay teens using more drugs than straight teens, but having been a teenager once who had bullying/harassment problems in school, lemme tell ya: it wasn't because I was bi, that I was miserable. It was because there was a whole culture in Catholic high school that encouraged the bullying of anyone who was different, and even the alleged support structure - administration & teachers - sided w/ the bullies, who were sports stars w/ school board parents.
I dunno if being made fun of* (which you make sound like no big thing) is THE reason for the serious spike in recent gay teen suicides, but the level of harassment that kids torture each other with these days is way worse than when I was in school. The internet makes it possible for bullies to follow kids wherever they go, and it was 'net access that pushed poor Tyler Clementi over the edge to suicide, as well.
Kids make fun of what they perceive as different or threatening; being gay is different. It's a parent's job to teach their child how to live with differences, as there are a lot of them out there in the world. Parents who even subtly suggest that being gay is somehow lesser, a bad thing, something they would be disappointed in their kid being, perpetuate hate by sending young people into the world who think that way.
Dan's angry words are provoked by the agony he must feel when he reads yet another child took their life because of bullying, or isolation; & although there are some very cool Christians who are reaching out to everyone with open arms, sadly, the ones who have the megahorn right now are the neo-cons who claim to love the sinner, but not the sin. 'cause they're saying gay love is a SIN. See how that works? & we won't even address the outright homophobes.
Dan must be remembering what he went through as a young 'un. He's pissed. Other than railing at him for abuse of his pulpit, what are any of you who claim to be the good kinda Christians doing to change attitudes about acceptance of gays as full, equal human beings in your communities & in your churches? You, personally, what are you doing? 'cause if you think you don't know anyone gay (or lesbian, bi or transgender), statistics say you are wrong.
-----
* being made fun of may include being beat up, pushed into lockers, sent hate mail, being cyberstalked, having pictures or intimate video of you/you & a partner posted online, being outed to family, etc.
Eva, I'm sorry, but I do know what it's like to be bullied, and know people who are gay. My brother is gay. Your point that Dan is angry doesn't allay my fear that he's a narrow-minded whack job. Niether does it give me any comfort with the rest of the posters in this forum and in many other forums that I have read. The homosexual community that is represented in forums such as this one tells me that it is prudent and necessary to guard my family and myself from them and their imbalanced, crazy view of the world. Dan and his disciples have made it very clear that they believe that there is no distinction between people that believe that homosexual behavior is immoral and people that hate homosexuals - and he's on a crusade. A crusade against me, my faith, my family, my friends and my community. Fine.
The CDC report does, in fact, give clear evidence that the accusations of bigotry is not the primary cause of gay suicides. But you guys don't want to examine the evidence because you don't care about the people who are killing themselves. Your motivation is to use their deaths as a political wedge to demonize everyone who does not embrace homosexuality. In reality, the homosexual political machine wants more deaths so that they can have more to accuse us of. They would be disappointed if the deaths ended today.
In short, you're a bunch of dangerous, crazy, frauds.
I AM ASKING YOU TO GIVE ME LINKS THAT PROVE WHAT YOU SAY. Frustratingly, I looked for hard data, not some political site when Googling gay teen suicide, and whether one the "gays are more at risk for suicide" or the "those stats are bogus" side, separate stats that were cold hard evidence of gay teen suicide versus straight teen suicide were hard to find. All the info I found at the CDC website gave a generalized breakdown:
Please link me to these statistics that show gay kids are more likely to knock someone up, also.
RangerRick: I am not gonna give you the heated empty argument you crave. Clearly you relish a debate, otherwise you wouldn't be responding in an atmosphere that clashes with your views.
*I* am not a crazy fraud. I live honestly, am good to others, don't lie about who I am & how DARE you tell me I don't care about these kids killing themselves. That could have been me. It tears me up. I don't have a homosexual agenda; I have an agenda of, kids are dying. Kids are dying because other kids bully them. & who is it who puts the thoughts int he bullies' heads? Their parents. Where do parents get the idea that homosexuality is immoral? Their church. How do we stop the kids from feeling hopeless? By assuring them that not everyone thinks that they way that they are made, the way that they are wired is "immoral". They have no more control over their preference than you do.
Your brother is gay, and you believe homosexual behavior is immoral. You believe that your brother, who was born the way he is, his actions are immoral.
Wow, that's ludicrous, and laughable. I feel sorry for your brother.
Bigotry DOES CAUSE hate; hate DOES CAUSE bullying and harassment. Don't believe me? These are "nice" ordinary high school kids, and their Facebook page:
& these kids think that being gay, if you "choose" it, means you deserve punishment. I'm sure their parents think as you do: those gays are crazy & dangerous. Better keep my family safe from them.
Kids with that attitude bring hate to the schools. Kids who feel the hate & pressure sometimes don't get the support they need to make it through another day. Sorry, but if your God endorses that view, if your God is that intolerant, then I'd think I am not the crazy & dangerous person who doesn't care about the kids who are dying.
Clearly everyone else here hasn't bothered to engage you as you have made up your mind what everyone else here has to say. But a non-political, plain' ol newspaper in Utah has an article perhaps you should read:
"he Salt Lake City-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been the target of anger from lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender advocacy groups after its high-profile role in passing the Proposition 8 gay-marriage ban in California and, more recently, a sermon by senior apostle Boyd K. Packer.
Speaking at the church’s semiannual General Conference this month, Packer referred to same-sex attraction as “impure and unnatural.” "
***
“Homosexuality is Satan's diabolical attack upon the family that will not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it will also bring down the wrath of God upon America.” - Jerry Falwell
***
"All homosexuals should be castrated." -Billy Graham
***
"If the world accepts homosexuality as its norm and if it moves the entire world in that regard, the whole world is then going to be sitting like Sodom and Gomorrah before a Holy God." - Pat Robertson
***
Speaking about Prop 8, popular Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren:
" RICK WARREN: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
STEVEN WALDMAN: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?
RICK WARREN: Oh I do. … "
***
"“I’m here to talk about sexual ethics from a Christian point of view,” he said. “I believe homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle." -- Pastor Green of the Pentecostal Church
***
Pastor Bethel says that homosexuality is not a civil right and that no society needs homosexual coupling.
He goes on to say, "[Bahamians] are not fooled by suggestions that homosexuality is normal and will fight vigorously to defend this country from further infiltration".
Pastor Bethel says Thompson failed to grasp what is really happening with homosexuality in The Bahamas for the past few decades.
***********************************
Each of these quotes was easy to find, I Googled pastor quotes about homosexuality. A pastor is someone who holds himself up as a spiritual leader. None of these leaders sound like they are tolerant, or loving. If my preacher in my church, when I was a teen, had said any of these things, I shudder to think what my worldview would be like now, or how I would have felt if the God I believed in then, didn't love me as I was.
Soooo -
if God is love, then his messengers are getting it wrong. & that getting it wrong bleeds through onto our children.
I care a lot about those lives. Saying otherwise is insulting. Thankfully, you're not MY brother.
Show me links to back up what you say. Anything you have said - but especially the gay teens & pregnancy one. I know some gay teens. Not how it works.
I am a Christian and I hate how so many give my religion a bad name. I am a staunch supporter of gay rights and am in the "gay people are born that way and God doesn't make mistakes" camp, which pisses off many of my fellow "Christians". Most of the haters that I argue with shut up when I make the point that I would rather stand before God having been truly loving of all people and turn out to be wrong, rather than have hated gay people and they turn out to be perfectly fine. Jesus preached love of all people- no judgement and no exceptions. Anyone who says otherwise is preaching cultural prejudices and not true Christianity.
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i've been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i've been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
i had a hard time at school being gay but now i've been with my boyfriend for 20years. Kids need to know it does get better. Dan what you said was right and should be said.
I'm a straight Jew. Three things I strongly believe in is Tikun Olam - repairing the world, that evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that no one person or belief has all the answers.
I agree with another poster, I really don't see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else's. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else's sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.
As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn't kid friendly, is it?
I'm a straight Jew. Three things I strongly believe in is Tikun Olam - repairing the world, that evil flourishes when good people do nothing, and that no one person or belief has all the answers.
I agree with another poster, I really don't see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else's. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else's sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.
As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn't kid friendly, is it?
I realize I'm a little late to the party, but bravo on the response to L.R.! Your passion for and stalwart defense of GLBT rights are an inspiration, Dan, and though I'm sure you already know it, a lot of us in the 'straight community' are pulling for you.
And I agree with your striking back against this 'follower of Christ' who somehow thinks her right to feel offended trumps these childrens' right to life without harassment. It's because our society still treats religious beliefs as unassailable bastions of righteousness that's part of the problem. Profess to be a believer and your opinion somehow is worth more. It's absolute horseshit.
So keep on fighting the good fight, and may the voices of reason one day (soon) drown out those of ignorance and hate.
Thank you Dan. The stuff the Religious Right pulls galls me beyond belief, particularly the hypocrisy of bashing LGBT people & then critiquing the LGBT community over factors they played a big part in making worse, it's that detestable blame the victim mentality at work. But it is even worse that they assume it is their right to dictate what should be acceptable, and that they call anyone who doesn't follow that evil. They go after everyone that isn't Christian, or Jewish, straight and conservative. Case in point: I'm bi, Transgender, and Wiccan. The Wiccan element alone attracts serious fire from them, before Islam became the "Evil" religion du jour it was Wicca, and we still get harassed because we aren't Christian. I got a lovely note a few weeks back saying I was going to hell for that reason & it outlined why all the other world religions -except Christianity & Judaism- are evil. They want to edge out every group that doesn't fall in line.
That being said I appreciate your good sense in limiting your arguments, you take the care to specify the Religious Right. You don't go off on Religion in general, as happens so often when the Religious Right is brought up. I think that shows good sense. I may be assuming & ascribing things incorrectly here, but I think you realize that there are plenty of religious people out there who use their faith to support LGBT teens and LGBT adults, and that there are plenty of LGBT people who have deep & supportive faith beliefs. And I'm not just talking about those Christian denominations that have decided to be supportive in the last decade, I mean everyone, the people like myself who are Wiccan or Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Baha'i or Pagan or any other faith outside of Christianity.
The Religious Right hurts us all, their intolerance of people that don't fit their world view has an impact that is only negative. They need to realize that since Christians and straight people are majorities in this country they have the responsibility of making sure there is room for everyone else, they can't use that advantage to stomp on everyone, because the only thing that comes of that is people being squished out of existence. They point at the problems of LGBT people as evidence for their hatred, I dare them to really look in a mirror and who really has the problems: oppressed minority trying to ensure their civil rights, or majority group trying to stomp out opposition so they can enjoy their (illusory) version of a perfect country.
Bravo for standing up and telling it like it is. Any gay person who apologizes for the inequities visited upon them are demeaning themselves and our culture. Somewhere, somehow, we (our culture) have "allowed" people to have open discourse speaking of LGBT people as if there were something wrong with them. Maybe it's a step up from the de-humanization that has occured over history but I don't think anyone should settle for less than "full humanity", and apparently, neither do you.
Straight, white, middle-aged male (although I DO have a gay son)
Dan, I grew up in the Willamette Valley, in an area where anyone with any intelligence at all knew better than to express anti-gay sentiment, and I was regularly bullied for *being gay* (I'm not gay, but for some reason I give gay vibes). The bullies, or most of them (not to mention the kids who would watch and do nothing) were from liberal, "gay-accepting" families. Kids bully people who are different, and so long as heteros are the majority of the population I doubt that LGBT kids will have it any easier for a very, very long time.
I even got into a fight once for *being gay* (though I'm not gay, I said I was). The teacher who resolved the issue was a lesbian herself, but did zip to punish the offenders.
And yeah, I'm sure the women whose feelings you are so willing to trample over won't hold any bitterness over it. No, you couldn't possibly have made the problem worse for the LGBT peers of her kids by telling her essentially to go fuck herself.
Being a popular advocate for the cause doesn't mean you can do no wrong in the service of that cause, Dan.
So, Dan Savage believes that the Christian conviction against gay marriage, because it explicitly identifies an entire outlook on life as wrong, is itself an implicit encouragement of bullying, ipso facto. He rejects the notion that people can raise their children in the belief that others are honestly mistaken in their feelings and impulses, yet simultaneously teach them that they should not bully or abuse others for that reason.
I wonder, then, if Dan Savage would be willing to have this criticism turned back upon him. By denouncing Christians as wrong-headed bigots, he himself has said that their ideas are "less worthy" than others. One can assume that if he were to adopt children or be responsible for teaching others, that he would pass these values on. And, since he believes that it is impossible to inculcate values that condemn others' beliefs, without implictly calling for them to be bullied to the point of suicide, we can see that Dan Savage is calling for the abuse, bullying and suicide of Christians when he denounces their entire worldview as inferior and bigoted.
His thoughtless and idiotic diatribe is rightly to be rejected. Christians believe that it is possible to draw a line in the sand between right and wrong, and we believe that this also involves teaching our children not to harass and bully others simply because they have some wrong-headed ideas or disordered feelings. Dan Savage doesn't believe in these kinds of distinctions, however, and so there is no other way to interpret his own bigotry and denunciation of Christian beliefs, save as a belief that Christians should be harrassed and bullied to the point of suicide... because, they're the "wrong" ones, after all.
If If he believes that he can denounce Christian beliefs without implicitly calling for systematic violence against Christians, perhaps he would be willing to return the favour, and believe that Christians can denounce homosexual ideology without calling for systematic violence against homosexuals? What an hypocrite! This is the typical inability of the radical leftist, to think his way out of a wet paper bag.
Everybody who just "goes with the flow" in our society should watch out. Christians and conservatives are at least capable of showing some tolerance, and at least their philosophical outlook affirms unambiguously the dignity of all human persons on absolute moral grounds. If occasionally minorities are mistreated under the conservative watch, there is a philosophical ground for criticizing it - just as many pious Christians opposed the Inquisition, sheltered Jews from the Nazis and pioneered the Civil Rights movement. Comments like these from Dan Savage show us just how benign and philosophically sophisticated a world run by liberal ideologues will be.
So, Dan Savage believes that the Christian conviction against gay marriage, because it explicitly identifies an entire outlook on life as wrong, is itself an implicit encouragement of bullying, ipso facto. He rejects the notion that people can raise their children in the belief that others are honestly mistaken in their feelings and impulses, yet simultaneously teach them that they should not bully or abuse others for that reason.
I wonder, then, if Dan Savage would be willing to have this criticism turned back upon him. Since he believes that it is impossible to inculcate values that condemn others' beliefs, without implictly calling for them to be bullied to the point of suicide, we can see that Dan Savage is calling for the abuse, bullying and suicide of Christians when he denounces their entire worldview as inferior and bigoted.
His thoughtless and idiotic diatribe is rightly to be rejected. Christians believe that it is possible to draw a line in the sand between right and wrong, and we believe that this also involves teaching our children not to harass and bully others simply because those others have some wrong-headed ideas or disordered feelings. Dan Savage doesn't believe in these kinds of distinctions, however, and so there is no other way to interpret his own bigotry and denunciation of Christian beliefs, save as a belief that Christians should be harrassed and bullied to the point of suicide... because, they're the "wrong" ones, after all.
And all of you who, perhaps only secretly, are thinking: "Yeah, Christians should be harassed and bullied to the point of suicide." Surprise! You're what's wrong with the world; *you* are the one with hatred in your heart.
If Dan Savage believes that he can denounce Christian beliefs without implicitly calling for systematic violence against Christians, perhaps he would be willing to return the favour, and believe that Christians can denounce homosexual ideology without calling for systematic violence against homosexuals? What an hypocrite! This is the typical inability of the radical leftist, to think his way out of a wet paper bag. It's all about an emotion of righteous indignation and self-flattery as a thoughtful rebel. But really, it's a way for the intellectually lazy to flatter themselves while jeopardizing every commitment to principled reasoning, which allows a society to stand and flourish.
Everybody who just "goes with the flow" in our society should watch out. Christians and conservatives are at least capable of showing some tolerance, and at least their philosophical outlook affirms unambiguously the dignity of all human persons on absolute moral grounds. If occasionally minorities are mistreated under the conservative watch, there is a philosophical ground for criticizing it - just as many pious Christians opposed the Inquisition, sheltered Jews from the Nazis and pioneered the Civil Rights movement. Comments like these from Dan Savage show us just how benign and philosophically sophisticated a world run by liberal ideologues will be.
I have in-laws who are very vocally anti-gay and we clash on the subject frequently. I think if you want to be seen as a 'good christian' you need to shout down the bad ones whenever and where ever possible. Yell it from the rooftops! As someone who believes in a loving, forgiving God and who believes that there is absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality it is my DUTY to shout them down or if I can't to at least dull their voices.
My in-laws are very vocally anti-gay and we clash on that frequently. I think if you really want to have the 'good christians' recognized you need to be as active and vocal as the other guys. Shout it from the rooftops! I believe in a loving, forgiving God and I see absolutely nothing wrong with homosexuality. However I'm would not be a 'good christian' if I just sat on the sidelines. Be active, sign petitions, post it to your social network of choice, start conversations, get your friends in on it with you! Be as loud and proud to support the gay community as they are when supporting themselves.
Great, now I'm offended from both ends. This lady is definitely blind to her own bigotry and the effect her words and beliefs have; still quite frankly, as someone whose faith has often been the virtually the ONLY thing that kept me from suicide (most recently I discovered even my fellow queer friends really suck in the suicide support department), I'm deeply hurt and offended by the continuation of this notion that religion is the root cause of said bigotry. Quite frankly, I'd rather be allowed to kill myself than have people like this "supporting" me. If you support me, support all of me, but calling my savior "magic friend in the sky Jesus" undermines any words of comfort or hope you have to offer. Thanks but no thanks.
I am a Christian and I love the Lord and I also love gay, lesbian, bisexual, transgendered, and queer people. Every human deserves the same rights, including the right to marry. I am bisexual myself and there is nothing wrong with my feelings and my love for whoever God blesses me with. So-called "Christians" who "hate the sin" and "judge sinners" need to go back and read the Bible some more.
Oh, so that fanatic wants to silence thoughts that disagree with the little world that LR has surrounded themselves with. Too goddamned bad. I'll say it again: too goddamned bad. I grew up with Christian right fanatics like LR and they have no problem imposing their views on others in the spirit of witnessing. But they don't want to reciprocate and hear an opposing view.
Instead, they want to pass laws restricting the rights and freedoms of the people they find disagreeable. LR go fuck yourself. The times they are a changin'
Suicide is for cowards. Suck it up, learn some boxing, and then fight back against the bullies. None of this namby-pamby bullshit about trying to enforce tolerance and acceptance. Earn respect with your fists!
People of all sexualities and desires watch all sorts of porn, Dan. Really, is this new to you? And the partner of the girlfriend in letter #2 is not necessarily bisexual. Why not suggest that his gf ASK how he identifies and/or what his desires are, in an open and accepting way? Why not suppose that perhaps he is struggling with his own gender identity and/or desires, and watches trans porn with the fantasy of himself as a transwoman, being fucked by a man? I actually thought it odd and bewildering that there was an assumption that the porn being watched was of transwomen--is it not possible that he's watching all sorts of trans-identified porn? You didn't help "make it better" in your response; rather, you perpetuated closed-minded assumptions and generalizations about the wide range of human sexuality, and came off as judgemental and, quite frankly, clueless. There's a larger queer community out here that you don't seem to be a part of or want to know about, explore, or understand. You might want to work a little bit on thinking about how YOU can make it better.
I am ok with gay lifestyle, but push it on my kids and you get an enemy quick. No reason that my 2nd grader came home with a letter talking about a mandatory conference on homosexual acceptance. Your agenda is backfiring.
Bullying … Church Sponsored Terrorism
When are we going to finally point the finger at the root cause of discrimination and bullying in this country? How many more teens have to shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump off bridges? How many kids have to be pistol whipped, crucified and hung on a fence to linger and die? We’ve got Fred Phelps running around the country viciously picketing the funerals of our honored veterans. We’ve got the radical right wing of the Republican Party on “C” Street denying evolution and writing laws for the country of Uganda calling for the execution of gays and the imprisonment of their families and friends. A single district in Minnesota has seen seven suicides in the last year by young victims of intolerance, while Tom Emmer, a virulently anti-LGBT candidate, supported by the “C” Street gang and the Tea Party, seeks the governor's chair. The Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell is virtually stalking Chris Armstrong, the gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan.
Half of all teen suicides are the result of kids being tormented about their sexuality … either by their preacher, priest, rabbi or imam telling them that they are going to burn in hell for eternity … or because they are bullied to death by surrogates who have been brainwashed by those same preachers, priests, rabbis and imams.
While science has demonstrated sufficient anecdotal evidence to establish that sexuality is determined during gestation and that it is not an individual’s conscious choice, the religions of the world continue to ignore the science and inculcate the most vicious levels of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination into their congregations every day. It is nothing short of church sponsored terrorism for the 30,000,000 GLTB citizens of this country. While the rest of the civilized world has grown to recognize the scientific evidence and embraced the GLTB community, the USA, fueled by the prejudice from the pulpit and aided and abetted by legislators and educators, has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
The world is not flat and the sun does not revolve around Planet Earth! African Americans do not carry the mark of Cain and evolution and DNA are sound science!
Bullying, intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination … it’s time to call it what it is … church sponsored, and legislatively abetted terrorism! If we are serious about ending it … we need to start there!
Jon Michael
2888 Rush Branch Road
Bradfordsville, KY 40009
270-337-2000
Bullying … Church Sponsored Terrorism
When are we going to finally point the finger at the root cause of discrimination and bullying in this country? How many more teens have to shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump off bridges? How many kids have to be pistol whipped, crucified and hung on a fence to linger and die?
We’ve got Fred Phelps running around the country viciously picketing the funerals of our honored veterans. We’ve got the radical right wing of the Republican Party on “C” Street denying evolution and writing laws for the country of Uganda calling for the execution of gays and the imprisonment of their families and friends. A single district in Minnesota has seen seven suicides in the last year by young victims of intolerance, while Tom Emmer, a virulently anti-LGBT candidate, supported by the “C” Street gang and the Tea Party, seeks the governor's chair. The Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell is virtually stalking Chris Armstrong, the gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan.
Half of all teen suicides are the result of kids being tormented about their sexuality … either by their preacher, priest, rabbi or imam telling them that they are going to burn in hell for eternity … or because they are bullied to death by surrogates who have been brainwashed by those same preachers, priests, rabbis and imams.
While science has demonstrated sufficient evidence to establish that sexuality is determined during gestation and that it is not an individual’s conscious choice, the religions of the world continue to ignore the science and inculcate the most vicious levels of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination into their congregations every day.
It is nothing short of church sponsored terrorism for the 30,000,000 LGBT citizens of this country. While the rest of the civilized world has grown to recognize the scientific evidence and embraced the LGBT community, the USA, fueled by the prejudice from the pulpit and aided and abetted by legislators and educators, has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
The world is not flat and the sun does not revolve around Planet Earth! African Americans do not carry the mark of Cain and evolution and DNA are sound science!
Bullying, intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination … it’s time to call it what it is … church sponsored, and legislatively abetted terrorism! If we are serious about ending it … we need to start there!
@ 365: Yeah, and then the teachers who've been looking the other way decide to crack down. I was there, beat the crap out of someone who'd been picking on me for four years, and got suspended. Not once did anything happen when I was found bloody, when I had an ulcer at the age of 16 from what I was going through, when I missed ten weeks of school in one year to avoid the harassment and beatings. But when I finally stood up for myself, THEN it became a problem.
Dear Christians,
If you have actually read the Bible (and even sort of understand it), you would understand that it is not promoting any negative connotation towards gay people. The part of the bible that discusses gay men, is in the same book where instructions for sacrificing animals are given, women are considered just as unclean when they are menstruating, and we are instructed not to eat pork. In today's society we do not follow any of these rituals or rules. Do you lock your daughters away when they menstruate, sacrifice animals at an alter, and refuse to eat bacon? No, then why do you continue to believe that the Bible tells you that gay = bad? You are misinterpreting the bible to promote your own bigoted and hateful agendas, something which, by the way, is the exact opposite of the intended message of the Bible. The Lord would not support these attitudes or behavior and it is shameful for you to use His name when promoting them.
Dear Non-Christians,
Many of us Christians support gay rights. It is possible to have a strong faith in God and support gay rights. In fact, I go to a Lutheran church where our pastor gave a sermon promoting the rights of gay people. Please realize that not all of us support this hateful agenda and some of us actually work towards promoting equal rights for gay people.
I'll consider accepting responsibilty for school bullying when I hear men who have "sex" with men accept some responsibility for the 15,000 plus men in my city of San Francisco (including four personal friends) who did not make it to age 50 because of AIDS.
Dan, you are an idiot. You cannot use a false comparison fallacy to attack someone, nor is attacking a person a way to settle an argument. You said it yourself, F your feelings. If that persons feelings aren't important, why are anyone else's? Sounds pretty hypocrtical to me.
What's this bollocks about LGBT children? There aren't any children who are gay or transgendered. Children have no sexual orientation. If you mean adolescents, say adolescents.
@ 157 I am sitting here at work and have been reading all of these comments and have not been compelled to add my own until I read yours. It made me feel sick with anger. I spent 6 years of my life being tortured by a man who was a pedophile and a part of my family. In no way can a pedophile be compared to a gay person because a pedophile is hurting someone mentally and physically. A person may have an attraction to children and can't help it but they choose to act on it. Gay people can't choose how they feel and how are they hurting anybody they just want to be happy and live their lives. Who are we to tell them that they cant! That comparison was wrong on so many levels and you are an asshole.
No need for it, Dan. You're skilled enough to go for bashing that holier than thou riting style, or for going some other less
So some Christians act like assholes. Oh, big fat newsflash.
So what? There's assholes everywhere. Would have been nice to distinguish. Some Christians are liberal, caring, and don't talk or write like they have had a bible reading or 500 too much.
But no, you had to just ditch an entire faith. That's easy, damn low, and I expect more from you. Wonder if you'd do the same with Islam - a religion far less tolerant of gays - and of Buhhlism - which isn't really supportive of gays, either.
I am religious and socially liberal. I went to a religiously affiliated university, and felt like the minority due to my political/social views. I went to a liberal, secular graduate school,and felt marginalized there as well.
There are so many closed-minded people in the world, if you can be open minded about sexuality (as in your column), I wish you could be a little more open minded about other things as well.
Like the fact that you can't paint all religious people with the same brush. Social justice, to me and many religious people, was what was so radical about Jesus' life. I believe in equality.
You could have written a better response to that letter.
You do know the "gay teen suicide epidemic" is a myth, right? Think about this for 10 seconds and you'll see some real problems. How did the people who collected the data about this find out about the sexual preference of all the suicides? This isn't exactly a matter of public record.
The Gibson study this whole story is based on was not peer-reviewed and was explicitly rejected by the government panel it was submitted to.
I'd respect your arguments a great deal more if you worked from real facts rather than numbers that float around in the public consciousness with no real basis.
You do know the "gay teen suicide epidemic" is a myth, right? Think about this for 10 seconds and you'll see some real problems. How did the people who collected the data about this find out about the sexual preference of all the suicides? This isn't exactly a matter of public record.
The Gibson study this whole story is based on was not peer-reviewed and was explicitly rejected by the government panel it was submitted to.
I'd respect your arguments a great deal more if you worked from real facts rather than numbers that float around in the public consciousness with no real basis.
I'm a Christian, and don't feel like Dan was painting all Christians with the same brush, or engaging in generalized Christian bashing, despite how L.R. tried to frame it. Although she accused him of "justifying judging entire groups of people based on their faith," what he was actually doing was calling out a SPECIFIC Christian (L.R.), and a specific TYPE of Christian (hypocrites). If you are neither LR, nor a hypocrite (nor a "hateful and false follower of Christ," as mentioned at the end of Dan's response), then you really haven't been addressed at all. If the shoe doesn't fit, don't wear it.
Are there Christians who aren't "that kind of Christian?" I certainly hope so, because I like to think I am one of them. L.R., as Dan pointed out, is not.
She attempted to claim that accepting her own fallibility and imperfection was all that was needed to make her "not one of those," and to deny the fact that opposing same-sex marriage inherently supports the viewpoint that same-sex couples are somehow "less worthy." At the same time, she was claiming that her hurt feelings should be more important than Dan's ability to speak freely about the It Get's Better campaign, further re-enforcing that she feels that the issues facing homosexual youth and the ability to talk freely about them is less important, "less worthy" than her feelings. Dan simply refused to play along with her self-delusion, and called her out on holding her hurt feelings in more esteem than ACTUAL DEATHS.
Was Dan's hostile response likely to change L.R.'s viewpoint on the issue? No, but perhaps it keep her from writing in to "preach" at him about his word choices again, and I suspect that was closer to his goal.
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Please wait...
and remember to be decent to everyone all of the time.
And as long as there are people out there who support the denial of a man's right to engage in acts of lesbian sex or a Caucasian American's right to be called an African American, it shall remain clear that our society hasn't shaken off the belief that some people are "more female or more African than others."
Please. I would support any proposed changes to the laws of my state which would amend the existing legal institution of "marriage" by extending its scope to include pairs of consenting adults of the same gender, along with those whose genders are opposite.
In other words, if my community as a whole decided that it wanted to extend not only the legal conventions associated with marriage (i.e. those relating to tax, next of kin benefits and responsibilities, etc) to cover same-sex partnerships, but that it also wanted to effect a de facto modification of the collective lexicon (via a modification of the legal lexicon, in regards to an institution whose provision, and therefore whose lexical determination, is subject to government monopoly), I would support such a change.
But let's be honest about this: the top-down imposition of a modification in the collective lexical conventions surrounding the terminology relating to the (rather ancient) tradition of "marriage" is the only objective unique to the same-sex marriage movement, beyond a movement aimed at securing the universality of legally parallel (but differently-named) domestic partnerships.
Couching the movement in the terms of the Civil Rights movement is intellectually sloppy at best. At worst, it is a cynical attempt to portray all opponents as bigots.
"Separate but equal" carried substantive legal implications during the civil rights era—two kids living in the same public school district would have been consigned to attending two different schools, perhaps differing greatly in any given measure of quality, only because of differences in skin color. Thus the two separate institutions, to which the law differentially assigned these two kids solely on the basis of race, may have been far from equal in many legally significant senses.
Alternatively, if "domestic partnerships" with the full legal force of "marriages" were made universal, the two institutions would be TRULY separate but equal. Which brings me back to my second paragraph...
The oft-heard comparisons between the civil rights movement and the same-sex marriage movement (as distinct from a movement to universalize domestic partnerships) would be merited if the civil rights movement had sought to erase ethnic classifications altogether, mandating not only that "Caucasian" and "African-American" kids not be assigned to different public schools on the basis of race, but also that they must all be classified as "Caucasian Americans." Proponents of same-sex marriage, after all, insist that same-sex partners not only be allowed to enter into institutions which not only enjoy identical legal treatment as those occupied by opposite-sex partners, but that the same word be used to refer to all such partnerships.
Now back to the denial of lesbian sex rights. A consenting male adult has the legal right to engage in sexual activities of his choosing with a consenting adult partner—since 2003, anyway. But to say that he has a right to engage in lesbian sex would just be silly. In this example, it should be obvious that there are no "rights" involved, but only a contradiction in the terms used. Invoking the idea of rights here would make sense only if the legal meaning of the term "lesbian sex" were to change, such that it became sufficiently general to refer to all sexual activities. At that point, every consenting adult would have a legal "right" to engage in "lesbian sex."
But, given present lexical conventions, to assert that a man's "lesbian sex rights" are being denied would be an absurdity, regardless of specific context. And, according to present (legal and broader societal) conventions regarding the term "marriage," it is similarly silly to insist that a same-sex couple's "marriage rights" are violated if they are able to enter into a legally recognized partnership which carries the full legal force of marriage, but is called something different.
That is not to say that there is anything wrong with having community-wide conversations about changing lexical conventions—language is, after all, a highly dynamic set of arbitrarily related symbols and predicates. And domestic partnerships with the full legal force of marriage are presently far from universal in the USA, so there is certainly room for continued advocacy in the furtherance of this cause.
But for god's sake, if the sakes of intellectual clarity and honesty aren't quite good enough, please quit with the gay marriage-civil rights comparisons which implicitly equate the two movements, as they are substantively quite dissimilar; and let’s talk start talking about why we believe that same-sex and opposite-sex unions should both be called marriages, rather than lobbing out crude assertions of “denial of marriage rights.”
Thank you,
Patty from Pittsburgh
There's a key fact this dingbat letter-writer skips. She chose her religion. Even if it's 'what she was brought up with', as people often excuse their hate, it's something she chose to accept rather than reject.
So to equate someone attacking the actions of her Church with physically attacking gay teens, or queer hate speech, is literally insane. It shows what she's been told about lgbt people making "choices" about their lives as well.
I will not begrudge anyone they're religion. I certainly have my spiritual moments where all I want is a Torah and a prayer shawl and a community. And there's a reason excommunication used to be a big deal- for lots of people religion is their main community, which is certainly a human need.
However, I will begrudge people "hate". I attack some denominations of my religion for their stances and practices, too- they may say "hate the sin, love the sinner", but labeling someone a "sinner" for their existence leads to a sense of "it's ok to think that some people don't deserve respect."
I want to note that a friend of mine mentioned that so much teen suicide goes unnoticed, and she resented that it was only when it was lgbt teens and hate crimes that it became big news. On the one hand, I see what she means- I was harassed terribly in school. To the point where I felt bad for the teachers who had to have me in class.The antisemitism part was just as bad from teachers as students. And my home life was abusive as well. I still have real damage, both physical and emotional, from what I went through. And you bet there were suicide attempts.
But here's the thing: it SHOULD be news that kids are harassing each other to this extent, as well as the fact that hate and homophobia are so on the rise. Expecting kids to "grow up" so young has not worked. Because ALL it's done is made things inhuman. Everything is just unilateral rules and codes and standardization.
College entrance gets more competitive to where my 31 year old sister who graduated Magna Cum Laude from Brown could never have gotten in now, because the process has nothing to do with intellect, but formatting CVs and training to apply the right way.
We've built huge industries on making sure that there is no aspect of life that is based on who an individual is, and assessing and praising or helping them based on that. And the educational realm is one of the saddest examples. Add that to the early-onset of physical maturity and increased adreinaline that they're brain isn't yet physically ready for- and it's not surprising that they don't see anyone, even themselves, as human, and therefore intrinsically deserving of love and respect.
But your hurt is valid, and your anger. It will get better, but only if you don't also judge yourself for hurting, and keep enough distance to see that there WOULD be something wrong with you if you didn't care- you'd be just as callous as them.
Of course, you also have to remember that they're young too, and under influences they probably don't realize they're under. Their actions matter a whole lot more, but you'll keep your sanity a little better if you remember that we're all human. even the bad ones.
Seattle and the world are better having you in them.
Seattle and the world are better having you in them.
When a Christian tells you they support gay marrage and gay adoption you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian tells you Christ told us not to judge but to love one another, you tell them to fuck off. When a Christian says a true translation of the offending passages isn't even close to what the haters recite, you tell them to fuck off.
I've even seen comments saying "good Christians" need to accept this vile behavior because of the sins of others. By this logic Pat Robertson has the right to hold gay people and their supporters responsible for the behavior of any gay person who has molested a child.
You can't have it both ways.
Your fuckery is making it harder for those of us who get it.
For a real wordy, back-patting dude trying to come off sounding like he knows it all, you really ought to check your facts. Domestic partnerships are legal in New Jersey with all the rights and benefits of marriage. And guess what...big surprise...turns out without it being called marriage, it's different. So yeah, to be equal, it has to be equal.
http://www.civilunionsdontwork.com/
"wordy" is fair...hence the name I chose for myself. But I don't see how any fact-checking is called for here, as I never claimed that domestic partnerships have not yet been established anywhere--just that they are presently far from universal in the USA.
Otherwise, my main point was just that sloppy arguments don't help anyone.
Personally, I'd love to see same-sex marriages become legal in every state in the US--but I don't believe that embracing the rather popular (sadly) tendency to portray any undesirable legislative stance as a civil rights violation is bringing us any closer to that goal. All it does is make everyone a little bit dumber and sharply reinforce awareness of group identity distinctions.
I am ANTI-bullying. Not gays, not Christians, not anyone just because you don't understand or agree with who they are.
Kill me now so I don't have to deal with your hate.
It doesn't matter who I am, what my sexual orientation is, what my religion is, what the color of my skin is.
I'd still rather die than have to experience, see, feel everyone's hatred every day for the rest of my life.
Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn't want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn't believe me, or there wasn't enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he'd moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he's up there fucking deer.
What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I'm just going to sit by and say "Oh, that's okay. What happened to me isn't important.", then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an "I'm sorry for what happened to you". Sadly, I don't think anyone ever will.
Sorry, but your bullshit doesn't fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don't! PROVE that I don't. You can't!
In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called 'rights'. Unless someone wants to tell me "I'm genuinely sorry", I don't want to hear it.
Many years ago, when I was 9 years old, I was forceably fucked up the ass by a gay (possibly bi) foster brother. I didn't want to do it, it was forced on me. I was threatened that if I told anyone, I would be hurt badly. I kept silent for about a year after I left the foster home, then reported it. They investigated, but nothing happened. They apparently didn't believe me, or there wasn't enough evidence. I have no idea where my attacker is today. Last I heard (20 years ago), he'd moved to northeastern Washington. For all I know, he's up there fucking deer.
What he did to me screwed me up for life. I am constantly battered by thoughts that I am worthless, damaged goods. What it also did was instill in me an absolute utter HATRED for homosexuals. Can you blame me? I defy, I DARE you to tell me that what happened to me was a good thing. I was fucking anally RAPED, people! And here is this whole section of society, trying to cram down my throat that the acts perpetrated on me are GOOD, and WONDERFUL, and worthy of my ACCEPTANCE? Well, excuse me, people. I was HURT by it. I was DAMAGED by it. And if you think I'm just going to sit by and say "Oh, that's okay. What happened to me isn't important.", then you are SADLY FUCKING MISTAKEN!!! Not once in 39 years since then have I heard so much as an "I'm sorry for what happened to you". Sadly, I don't think anyone ever will.
Sorry, but your bullshit doesn't fly with me. I have a RIGHT for my anger. I DEFY you to tell me I don't! PROVE that I don't. You can't!
In the meantime, shut the fuck up about your so-called 'rights'. Unless someone wants to tell me "I'm genuinely sorry", I don't want to hear it.
If you think of yourself as a "good Christian" who supports gay rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Christian.
As much as I hate bigoted, anti-gay Christians, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of gay rights."
Just wanted to say this statement from Blackrose is dangerously ignorant and intolerant.
I am, personally, atheist/agnostic, but I find this comment to be irresponsible. Here - let's change a few words and see how it looks now:
---
I'm sorry, but there are no "good Muslims." The so-called good Muslims are what make the bad Muslims possible, by supporting an evil, bigoted book, and going along with a historical and cultural tradition that has caused immense suffering over 2000 years.
If you think of yourself as a "good Muslim" who supports human rights, please do yourself and the rest of us a favor and read a little about your religion and its history. Then actually read your holy book. Read every single word and come back and tell us you're a good Muslim.
As much as I hate Muslim extremists, at least they're honest about what their spiritual teachers and the writers of their holy book say. And it's pretty clearly not in support of human rights.
I'm a non-Christian who believe you can be a good, gay-loving Christian. I don't believe EVERYTHING my good book says, but that doesn't mean I don't believe at all. It's not all or nothing. I know it was written by man, not by God, and man has a way of villifying things. So, I pray, I fast, I am kind to others, I believe that all people are equal and God doesn't condemn people for their sexual preference...and I know many Christians in this great, truly free country of Canada who believe the same thing.
Oh yeah, and our beer is WAY better :)
hahahahaha
Really.
History of human beings: Create something to follow
Egyptians, Greeks, etc
I mean really? You are whatever religion you are because your parents were. So should you be a whatever profession they were too?
Every culture has created some form of religion throughout history.
This version has taken over because they figured out the fear aspect of it. Believe or spend eternity watching Glen Beck shows, or burning in hell.
come on people,
think
what good has come?
wars
bigotry
poverty (go look at the Vatican, and then realize how many people starve to death in the world - ridiculous)
think
control, that is all. you are a fool to think otherwise.
have you 'seen' one scrap of proof in you life that ANY of these stories are true?
control works in mysterious ways
take your life back
I'm sorry for what happened to you.
That was rape, nothing else. It doesn't make homosexual sex wrong though. Just like the countless man-on-woman rapes every day make straight sex wrong. They make rape wrong. Consenting sex, gay or straight, is not wrong. Rape is not consent.
Again, I am truly sorry for what happened to you, no child, no teen, no adult deserves to be forced to perform any kind of sex act. I hope you find a way to stop hurting.
I married a man 40 or so years ago whom I thought was straight – true times were different back then, but the societal pressures still unfortunately exist that encourage some people to hide their sexuality.
Your advice to the woman engaged to the confused or homophobic man was right on. In addition I would like to say to her – she is not a bitch for digging deeper, protecting herself and being smart about the situation. I still love my ex husband and the father of my children, but I don’t want to be married to him nor he to me. He has been exclusively in gay relationships ever since we split in the early 70’s.
One more thought – I believe your strong language, Dan, is called for (you are obviously passionate on the subject) and it does not offend me, however, if you are trying to
ease the suffering of these young people and change people’s behavior – I would guess the language is offensive to just the people
whose minds we are trying to change.
In turn that allows them to dismiss the important part of the message.
This forum gives credence to the opinion that homosexuals are radically dangerous freaks.
This US VS. THEM mentality hasn't EVER been productive.
Not all of the "faithful Christians" cling to "dehumanizing bigotries" and it just isn't fair to say that. It seems that you have a pulpit, Dan Savage. You have a voice and can reach so many people with a message of hope for the future. But what I read in this column today was a missed opportunity written with bitter subtext. The "faithful Christians" are never going to agree with us and they don't have to. We need a way to reconcile Christianity and homosexuality - Tammy Faye style. She was a gay advocate who didn't support marriage rights.
It's not responsible to encourage "mocking, hurting or intimidating" on EITHER side.
We're all in this together. The Bible even has a verse that can be used as a direct message to these gay, Christian kids who are conflicted about what they've been told and who they are: "For I know the plans I have for you," declares the LORD, "plans to prosper you and not to harm you, plans to give you hope and a future." - Jeremiah 29:11
Maybe being made fun of isn't the reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe being gay is a result of abuse, and maybe gay suicide rates are an effect of being gay.
According to the CDC's (the Center for Disease Contol) Youth Risk Behavior Survey, Gay students are also more than twice as likely to report having had sexual intercourse before age 13 -- that is, to be sexually abused as children. They are three times as likely to report being the victims of dating violence, and nearly four times as likely to report forced sexual contact. A majority of LGBT teens in Massachusetts reported using illegal drugs in the last month. (Perhaps most oddly, gay teens are also three times as likely as non-gay teens to report either becoming pregnant or getting someone else pregnant.)
Maybe being made fun of isn't the real reason for gay suicide rates. In fact, maybe abuse is the reason many turn gay, and maybe gay suicide rates are a result of being gay.
I'd like to see your statistics about gay teens using more drugs than straight teens, but having been a teenager once who had bullying/harassment problems in school, lemme tell ya: it wasn't because I was bi, that I was miserable. It was because there was a whole culture in Catholic high school that encouraged the bullying of anyone who was different, and even the alleged support structure - administration & teachers - sided w/ the bullies, who were sports stars w/ school board parents.
I dunno if being made fun of* (which you make sound like no big thing) is THE reason for the serious spike in recent gay teen suicides, but the level of harassment that kids torture each other with these days is way worse than when I was in school. The internet makes it possible for bullies to follow kids wherever they go, and it was 'net access that pushed poor Tyler Clementi over the edge to suicide, as well.
Kids make fun of what they perceive as different or threatening; being gay is different. It's a parent's job to teach their child how to live with differences, as there are a lot of them out there in the world. Parents who even subtly suggest that being gay is somehow lesser, a bad thing, something they would be disappointed in their kid being, perpetuate hate by sending young people into the world who think that way.
Dan's angry words are provoked by the agony he must feel when he reads yet another child took their life because of bullying, or isolation; & although there are some very cool Christians who are reaching out to everyone with open arms, sadly, the ones who have the megahorn right now are the neo-cons who claim to love the sinner, but not the sin. 'cause they're saying gay love is a SIN. See how that works? & we won't even address the outright homophobes.
Dan must be remembering what he went through as a young 'un. He's pissed. Other than railing at him for abuse of his pulpit, what are any of you who claim to be the good kinda Christians doing to change attitudes about acceptance of gays as full, equal human beings in your communities & in your churches? You, personally, what are you doing? 'cause if you think you don't know anyone gay (or lesbian, bi or transgender), statistics say you are wrong.
-----
* being made fun of may include being beat up, pushed into lockers, sent hate mail, being cyberstalked, having pictures or intimate video of you/you & a partner posted online, being outed to family, etc.
The CDC report does, in fact, give clear evidence that the accusations of bigotry is not the primary cause of gay suicides. But you guys don't want to examine the evidence because you don't care about the people who are killing themselves. Your motivation is to use their deaths as a political wedge to demonize everyone who does not embrace homosexuality. In reality, the homosexual political machine wants more deaths so that they can have more to accuse us of. They would be disappointed if the deaths ended today.
In short, you're a bunch of dangerous, crazy, frauds.
http://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/dataan…
Please link me to these statistics that show gay kids are more likely to knock someone up, also.
RangerRick: I am not gonna give you the heated empty argument you crave. Clearly you relish a debate, otherwise you wouldn't be responding in an atmosphere that clashes with your views.
*I* am not a crazy fraud. I live honestly, am good to others, don't lie about who I am & how DARE you tell me I don't care about these kids killing themselves. That could have been me. It tears me up. I don't have a homosexual agenda; I have an agenda of, kids are dying. Kids are dying because other kids bully them. & who is it who puts the thoughts int he bullies' heads? Their parents. Where do parents get the idea that homosexuality is immoral? Their church. How do we stop the kids from feeling hopeless? By assuring them that not everyone thinks that they way that they are made, the way that they are wired is "immoral". They have no more control over their preference than you do.
Your brother is gay, and you believe homosexual behavior is immoral. You believe that your brother, who was born the way he is, his actions are immoral.
Wow, that's ludicrous, and laughable. I feel sorry for your brother.
Bigotry DOES CAUSE hate; hate DOES CAUSE bullying and harassment. Don't believe me? These are "nice" ordinary high school kids, and their Facebook page:
http://imgur.com/hdbn8
So..being gay is a choice. OK. When did you choose to be, your-God-approved, straight?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHY…
& these kids think that being gay, if you "choose" it, means you deserve punishment. I'm sure their parents think as you do: those gays are crazy & dangerous. Better keep my family safe from them.
Kids with that attitude bring hate to the schools. Kids who feel the hate & pressure sometimes don't get the support they need to make it through another day. Sorry, but if your God endorses that view, if your God is that intolerant, then I'd think I am not the crazy & dangerous person who doesn't care about the kids who are dying.
Clearly everyone else here hasn't bothered to engage you as you have made up your mind what everyone else here has to say. But a non-political, plain' ol newspaper in Utah has an article perhaps you should read:
http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/home/505185…
Also:
"he Salt Lake City-based Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints has been the target of anger from lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender advocacy groups after its high-profile role in passing the Proposition 8 gay-marriage ban in California and, more recently, a sermon by senior apostle Boyd K. Packer.
Speaking at the church’s semiannual General Conference this month, Packer referred to same-sex attraction as “impure and unnatural.” "
***
“Homosexuality is Satan's diabolical attack upon the family that will not only have a corrupting influence upon our next generation, but it will also bring down the wrath of God upon America.” - Jerry Falwell
***
"All homosexuals should be castrated." -Billy Graham
***
"If the world accepts homosexuality as its norm and if it moves the entire world in that regard, the whole world is then going to be sitting like Sodom and Gomorrah before a Holy God." - Pat Robertson
***
Speaking about Prop 8, popular Saddleback Church pastor Rick Warren:
" RICK WARREN: But the issue to me is, I’m not opposed to that as much as I’m opposed to the redefinition of a 5,000-year definition of marriage. I’m opposed to having a brother and sister be together and call that marriage. I’m opposed to an older guy marrying a child and calling that a marriage. I’m opposed to one guy having multiple wives and calling that marriage.
STEVEN WALDMAN: Do you think, though, that they are equivalent to having gays getting married?
RICK WARREN: Oh I do. … "
***
"“I’m here to talk about sexual ethics from a Christian point of view,” he said. “I believe homosexuality is an abnormal lifestyle." -- Pastor Green of the Pentecostal Church
***
Pastor Bethel says that homosexuality is not a civil right and that no society needs homosexual coupling.
He goes on to say, "[Bahamians] are not fooled by suggestions that homosexuality is normal and will fight vigorously to defend this country from further infiltration".
Pastor Bethel says Thompson failed to grasp what is really happening with homosexuality in The Bahamas for the past few decades.
***********************************
Each of these quotes was easy to find, I Googled pastor quotes about homosexuality. A pastor is someone who holds himself up as a spiritual leader. None of these leaders sound like they are tolerant, or loving. If my preacher in my church, when I was a teen, had said any of these things, I shudder to think what my worldview would be like now, or how I would have felt if the God I believed in then, didn't love me as I was.
Soooo -
if God is love, then his messengers are getting it wrong. & that getting it wrong bleeds through onto our children.
I care a lot about those lives. Saying otherwise is insulting. Thankfully, you're not MY brother.
Show me links to back up what you say. Anything you have said - but especially the gay teens & pregnancy one. I know some gay teens. Not how it works.
Sweet Jesus, do you actually believe what you are typing or is this just an attempt to get the left wingers wound up?
I agree with another poster, I really don't see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else's. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else's sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.
As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn't kid friendly, is it?
I agree with another poster, I really don't see a clear anti-gay bias in the Bible. But even if it were there, so what? People should look to their own behavior, not everyone else's. To me, doing the right thing does not mean policing someone else's sexual preference, but it does mean working-speaking-acting against violence and injustice.
As for it getting better, why should it have to? Kids have it hard enough, we should be looking at ways to help all of them to grow up without trauma. Bullies should never be tolerated. Kids should never be made to be ashamed of themselves or their families. But then again, our society really isn't kid friendly, is it?
And I agree with your striking back against this 'follower of Christ' who somehow thinks her right to feel offended trumps these childrens' right to life without harassment. It's because our society still treats religious beliefs as unassailable bastions of righteousness that's part of the problem. Profess to be a believer and your opinion somehow is worth more. It's absolute horseshit.
So keep on fighting the good fight, and may the voices of reason one day (soon) drown out those of ignorance and hate.
That being said I appreciate your good sense in limiting your arguments, you take the care to specify the Religious Right. You don't go off on Religion in general, as happens so often when the Religious Right is brought up. I think that shows good sense. I may be assuming & ascribing things incorrectly here, but I think you realize that there are plenty of religious people out there who use their faith to support LGBT teens and LGBT adults, and that there are plenty of LGBT people who have deep & supportive faith beliefs. And I'm not just talking about those Christian denominations that have decided to be supportive in the last decade, I mean everyone, the people like myself who are Wiccan or Buddhist or Muslim or Hindu or Baha'i or Pagan or any other faith outside of Christianity.
The Religious Right hurts us all, their intolerance of people that don't fit their world view has an impact that is only negative. They need to realize that since Christians and straight people are majorities in this country they have the responsibility of making sure there is room for everyone else, they can't use that advantage to stomp on everyone, because the only thing that comes of that is people being squished out of existence. They point at the problems of LGBT people as evidence for their hatred, I dare them to really look in a mirror and who really has the problems: oppressed minority trying to ensure their civil rights, or majority group trying to stomp out opposition so they can enjoy their (illusory) version of a perfect country.
Straight, white, middle-aged male (although I DO have a gay son)
I even got into a fight once for *being gay* (though I'm not gay, I said I was). The teacher who resolved the issue was a lesbian herself, but did zip to punish the offenders.
And yeah, I'm sure the women whose feelings you are so willing to trample over won't hold any bitterness over it. No, you couldn't possibly have made the problem worse for the LGBT peers of her kids by telling her essentially to go fuck herself.
Being a popular advocate for the cause doesn't mean you can do no wrong in the service of that cause, Dan.
As if you'll ever read this.
I wonder, then, if Dan Savage would be willing to have this criticism turned back upon him. By denouncing Christians as wrong-headed bigots, he himself has said that their ideas are "less worthy" than others. One can assume that if he were to adopt children or be responsible for teaching others, that he would pass these values on. And, since he believes that it is impossible to inculcate values that condemn others' beliefs, without implictly calling for them to be bullied to the point of suicide, we can see that Dan Savage is calling for the abuse, bullying and suicide of Christians when he denounces their entire worldview as inferior and bigoted.
His thoughtless and idiotic diatribe is rightly to be rejected. Christians believe that it is possible to draw a line in the sand between right and wrong, and we believe that this also involves teaching our children not to harass and bully others simply because they have some wrong-headed ideas or disordered feelings. Dan Savage doesn't believe in these kinds of distinctions, however, and so there is no other way to interpret his own bigotry and denunciation of Christian beliefs, save as a belief that Christians should be harrassed and bullied to the point of suicide... because, they're the "wrong" ones, after all.
If If he believes that he can denounce Christian beliefs without implicitly calling for systematic violence against Christians, perhaps he would be willing to return the favour, and believe that Christians can denounce homosexual ideology without calling for systematic violence against homosexuals? What an hypocrite! This is the typical inability of the radical leftist, to think his way out of a wet paper bag.
Everybody who just "goes with the flow" in our society should watch out. Christians and conservatives are at least capable of showing some tolerance, and at least their philosophical outlook affirms unambiguously the dignity of all human persons on absolute moral grounds. If occasionally minorities are mistreated under the conservative watch, there is a philosophical ground for criticizing it - just as many pious Christians opposed the Inquisition, sheltered Jews from the Nazis and pioneered the Civil Rights movement. Comments like these from Dan Savage show us just how benign and philosophically sophisticated a world run by liberal ideologues will be.
I wonder, then, if Dan Savage would be willing to have this criticism turned back upon him. Since he believes that it is impossible to inculcate values that condemn others' beliefs, without implictly calling for them to be bullied to the point of suicide, we can see that Dan Savage is calling for the abuse, bullying and suicide of Christians when he denounces their entire worldview as inferior and bigoted.
His thoughtless and idiotic diatribe is rightly to be rejected. Christians believe that it is possible to draw a line in the sand between right and wrong, and we believe that this also involves teaching our children not to harass and bully others simply because those others have some wrong-headed ideas or disordered feelings. Dan Savage doesn't believe in these kinds of distinctions, however, and so there is no other way to interpret his own bigotry and denunciation of Christian beliefs, save as a belief that Christians should be harrassed and bullied to the point of suicide... because, they're the "wrong" ones, after all.
And all of you who, perhaps only secretly, are thinking: "Yeah, Christians should be harassed and bullied to the point of suicide." Surprise! You're what's wrong with the world; *you* are the one with hatred in your heart.
If Dan Savage believes that he can denounce Christian beliefs without implicitly calling for systematic violence against Christians, perhaps he would be willing to return the favour, and believe that Christians can denounce homosexual ideology without calling for systematic violence against homosexuals? What an hypocrite! This is the typical inability of the radical leftist, to think his way out of a wet paper bag. It's all about an emotion of righteous indignation and self-flattery as a thoughtful rebel. But really, it's a way for the intellectually lazy to flatter themselves while jeopardizing every commitment to principled reasoning, which allows a society to stand and flourish.
Everybody who just "goes with the flow" in our society should watch out. Christians and conservatives are at least capable of showing some tolerance, and at least their philosophical outlook affirms unambiguously the dignity of all human persons on absolute moral grounds. If occasionally minorities are mistreated under the conservative watch, there is a philosophical ground for criticizing it - just as many pious Christians opposed the Inquisition, sheltered Jews from the Nazis and pioneered the Civil Rights movement. Comments like these from Dan Savage show us just how benign and philosophically sophisticated a world run by liberal ideologues will be.
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Instead, they want to pass laws restricting the rights and freedoms of the people they find disagreeable. LR go fuck yourself. The times they are a changin'
When are we going to finally point the finger at the root cause of discrimination and bullying in this country? How many more teens have to shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump off bridges? How many kids have to be pistol whipped, crucified and hung on a fence to linger and die? We’ve got Fred Phelps running around the country viciously picketing the funerals of our honored veterans. We’ve got the radical right wing of the Republican Party on “C” Street denying evolution and writing laws for the country of Uganda calling for the execution of gays and the imprisonment of their families and friends. A single district in Minnesota has seen seven suicides in the last year by young victims of intolerance, while Tom Emmer, a virulently anti-LGBT candidate, supported by the “C” Street gang and the Tea Party, seeks the governor's chair. The Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell is virtually stalking Chris Armstrong, the gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan.
Half of all teen suicides are the result of kids being tormented about their sexuality … either by their preacher, priest, rabbi or imam telling them that they are going to burn in hell for eternity … or because they are bullied to death by surrogates who have been brainwashed by those same preachers, priests, rabbis and imams.
While science has demonstrated sufficient anecdotal evidence to establish that sexuality is determined during gestation and that it is not an individual’s conscious choice, the religions of the world continue to ignore the science and inculcate the most vicious levels of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination into their congregations every day. It is nothing short of church sponsored terrorism for the 30,000,000 GLTB citizens of this country. While the rest of the civilized world has grown to recognize the scientific evidence and embraced the GLTB community, the USA, fueled by the prejudice from the pulpit and aided and abetted by legislators and educators, has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
The world is not flat and the sun does not revolve around Planet Earth! African Americans do not carry the mark of Cain and evolution and DNA are sound science!
Bullying, intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination … it’s time to call it what it is … church sponsored, and legislatively abetted terrorism! If we are serious about ending it … we need to start there!
Jon Michael
2888 Rush Branch Road
Bradfordsville, KY 40009
270-337-2000
When are we going to finally point the finger at the root cause of discrimination and bullying in this country? How many more teens have to shoot themselves, hang themselves or jump off bridges? How many kids have to be pistol whipped, crucified and hung on a fence to linger and die?
We’ve got Fred Phelps running around the country viciously picketing the funerals of our honored veterans. We’ve got the radical right wing of the Republican Party on “C” Street denying evolution and writing laws for the country of Uganda calling for the execution of gays and the imprisonment of their families and friends. A single district in Minnesota has seen seven suicides in the last year by young victims of intolerance, while Tom Emmer, a virulently anti-LGBT candidate, supported by the “C” Street gang and the Tea Party, seeks the governor's chair. The Michigan Assistant Attorney General Andrew Shirvell is virtually stalking Chris Armstrong, the gay student assembly president at the University of Michigan.
Half of all teen suicides are the result of kids being tormented about their sexuality … either by their preacher, priest, rabbi or imam telling them that they are going to burn in hell for eternity … or because they are bullied to death by surrogates who have been brainwashed by those same preachers, priests, rabbis and imams.
While science has demonstrated sufficient evidence to establish that sexuality is determined during gestation and that it is not an individual’s conscious choice, the religions of the world continue to ignore the science and inculcate the most vicious levels of intolerance, prejudice and discrimination into their congregations every day.
It is nothing short of church sponsored terrorism for the 30,000,000 LGBT citizens of this country. While the rest of the civilized world has grown to recognize the scientific evidence and embraced the LGBT community, the USA, fueled by the prejudice from the pulpit and aided and abetted by legislators and educators, has slipped back into the Dark Ages.
The world is not flat and the sun does not revolve around Planet Earth! African Americans do not carry the mark of Cain and evolution and DNA are sound science!
Bullying, intolerance, bigotry, prejudice, discrimination … it’s time to call it what it is … church sponsored, and legislatively abetted terrorism! If we are serious about ending it … we need to start there!
If you have actually read the Bible (and even sort of understand it), you would understand that it is not promoting any negative connotation towards gay people. The part of the bible that discusses gay men, is in the same book where instructions for sacrificing animals are given, women are considered just as unclean when they are menstruating, and we are instructed not to eat pork. In today's society we do not follow any of these rituals or rules. Do you lock your daughters away when they menstruate, sacrifice animals at an alter, and refuse to eat bacon? No, then why do you continue to believe that the Bible tells you that gay = bad? You are misinterpreting the bible to promote your own bigoted and hateful agendas, something which, by the way, is the exact opposite of the intended message of the Bible. The Lord would not support these attitudes or behavior and it is shameful for you to use His name when promoting them.
Dear Non-Christians,
Many of us Christians support gay rights. It is possible to have a strong faith in God and support gay rights. In fact, I go to a Lutheran church where our pastor gave a sermon promoting the rights of gay people. Please realize that not all of us support this hateful agenda and some of us actually work towards promoting equal rights for gay people.
Gibbons in SF
No need for it, Dan. You're skilled enough to go for bashing that holier than thou riting style, or for going some other less
So some Christians act like assholes. Oh, big fat newsflash.
So what? There's assholes everywhere. Would have been nice to distinguish. Some Christians are liberal, caring, and don't talk or write like they have had a bible reading or 500 too much.
But no, you had to just ditch an entire faith. That's easy, damn low, and I expect more from you. Wonder if you'd do the same with Islam - a religion far less tolerant of gays - and of Buhhlism - which isn't really supportive of gays, either.
I am religious and socially liberal. I went to a religiously affiliated university, and felt like the minority due to my political/social views. I went to a liberal, secular graduate school,and felt marginalized there as well.
There are so many closed-minded people in the world, if you can be open minded about sexuality (as in your column), I wish you could be a little more open minded about other things as well.
Like the fact that you can't paint all religious people with the same brush. Social justice, to me and many religious people, was what was so radical about Jesus' life. I believe in equality.
You could have written a better response to that letter.
The Gibson study this whole story is based on was not peer-reviewed and was explicitly rejected by the government panel it was submitted to.
I'd respect your arguments a great deal more if you worked from real facts rather than numbers that float around in the public consciousness with no real basis.
The Gibson study this whole story is based on was not peer-reviewed and was explicitly rejected by the government panel it was submitted to.
I'd respect your arguments a great deal more if you worked from real facts rather than numbers that float around in the public consciousness with no real basis.
Does that hurt your feelings? Too fucking bad.
Does that hurt your feelings? Too fucking bad.
Are there Christians who aren't "that kind of Christian?" I certainly hope so, because I like to think I am one of them. L.R., as Dan pointed out, is not.
She attempted to claim that accepting her own fallibility and imperfection was all that was needed to make her "not one of those," and to deny the fact that opposing same-sex marriage inherently supports the viewpoint that same-sex couples are somehow "less worthy." At the same time, she was claiming that her hurt feelings should be more important than Dan's ability to speak freely about the It Get's Better campaign, further re-enforcing that she feels that the issues facing homosexual youth and the ability to talk freely about them is less important, "less worthy" than her feelings. Dan simply refused to play along with her self-delusion, and called her out on holding her hurt feelings in more esteem than ACTUAL DEATHS.
Was Dan's hostile response likely to change L.R.'s viewpoint on the issue? No, but perhaps it keep her from writing in to "preach" at him about his word choices again, and I suspect that was closer to his goal.
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