Columns May 25, 2011 at 4:00 am

The Choicer Challenge

Comments

204
@188 Suzy, regarding @165 and reading the message correctly, how else is one expected to interpret, and I quote:

"SOMETIMES it's nto even appropriate to think about fucking"
"these are times to not think about his penis."
"I have found men are really dumb" etc.

Dan did not glibly overlook the impact on either of them of the miscarriage. Nor have I seen anyone say she wrong in not wanting sex right now. People respond differently to grief. For some, sex is the last thing on their minds. Equally other people (including, one might allow, the H), might want reassurance and comfort at this time in sex - as for example my wife did. It's not "inappropriate" to want it, nor would I judge anyone who did. I'd take them in my arms and love them, and cry my eyes out.

What I find really tiresome in some of the comments is the judgemental and gender polarising nonsense. I have zero tolerance for the dismissive cant against guys that some seem to find acceptable, of which @165 is an example - as I would for the equivalent regarding women. Cut it out please, these are real suffering people.

For the OP for C&H, I think he probably made a mistake, (which people do), and at this time, it's really great to be there for each other and comfort each other. You can get great wedges of misunderstanding and disconnect from the grief.
205
Love your opinion on John Cummins. ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! Thanks!
206
"The trait doesn't know what genetic health in a population is."

If you emphasize one unit of selection, that's true. But natural selection works on the genetic, cellular, tissue, organism, species, and group levels all at the same time. The "genetic health" of a population can inform the prevalence or dearth of a trait in a given population.
207
I'm surprised that some of the people are still scratching their heads about how homosexuality happened to evolve. I can't be the only one on this board who has read "Sex At Dawn" !
208
So Elsalover, if you don't care about incest, then maybe you too are one of those "tight-ass" (your words, not mine) people who feel that "infidelity is worse than incest." However, the way you said it at first made it seem like you didn't agree with the tight-ass Americans. Or perhaps you don't care about either one, which would be a third option. I don't mind if you think I'm a tight-ass, as I'm guessing I'd consider that complimentary.
209
Dameedna, here's why I interpret it differently: there's no way for her to know that he's thinking about sex unless he says or does something to reveal his otherwise private thoughts. And yeah, at her grandpa's funeral is not the time to do this. Likewise, when the "she" is grieving a miscarriage and has already stated she doesn't want threesomes, it's not the time to be delving into plans.

It would be nice if his desires for sex, or perhaps comfort through sex, could be met at this time. Nothing wrong with that, and sure, he's grieving too. However, the reality is that his body did not endure the miscarriage, and he overstepped some bounds with his actions, so I think he needs to apologize and perhaps also explain to his wife that he is indeed grieving, since to me that's the worse concern.
210
Avast2006, she didn't snoop in his email. He left it there in view. The fact that you're blaming HER for the whole problem on this ground pretty much says it all.

But anyway, you're right, it doesn't matter how he actually feels about it, because his actions are saying something else! Specifically: I have chosen to disregard your stated lack of interest in our threesome activities, and I have chosen to speak for you falsely to others, as I ask them when we can meet. More generally, what this says to his wife is, I don't care that much about your feelings, even when you're miserable! So that's why I think he needs to do something to show her that he does indeed care about her feelings, and knows he made an error, and that he's feeling grief just like she is.
211
9/11 WAS a piece of theater staged and directed by several US officials high in the GW Bush administration. Check out the work of David Ray Griffin at http://davidraygriffin.com/ for the most intellectually careful and thorough introduction to the research.

Three of the most obviously compelling pieces of evidence, to me:
- Larry Silverstein, lessee of the WTC, admitted on camera that he made a choice to "pull" WTC 7. (i.e., controlled demolition: it was not felled by fire) Which meant that the charges had been set days in advance.
- Norman Mineta, Secy. of Transportation, stated on camera at the 9/11 Commission hearings that when the plane that hit the Pentagon was approaching it, Dick Cheney was repeatedly asked by a young man, "Do the orders still stand?" Cheney repeatedly said yes. These orders could only have meant orders not to intercept/shoot down the plane.
- the fact that an intact passport belonging to a 'hijacker' was found on the ground outside WTC. Like it flew out of his pocket through the fire?

Don't attack your compatriots, Dan. You don't know everything. If you're not thoroughly sure that 9/11 was entirely NOT an inside job, just keep silent.
212
My usual response to the "choicers" is along the lines of "Being a Christian is a choice, does that mean we shouldn't let them get married?"
213
Today, as my son cried in my arms, he said, “What nobody realizes is that it’s torture. Every day of my life I wish I wasn’t gay.” MMT
214
The whole "choice" thing is a stupid fucking argument.

Being gay may be a choice, for all I know. Being straight may be a choice. Being a republican is certainly a choice. So is being a christian.

And last I knew, it was immoral and illegal to discriminate against folks for being christians. Or republicans.

It's got fuckall to do with choice.

What they mean is, it's a choice we disagree with.

Pathetic

Doc
215
"Avast2006, she didn't snoop in his email. He left it there in view."

Unless he left all the messages carefully tiled on his screen so that she could read the contents without touching the mouse or keyboard, then she actively dug through his email account. End of story.

"The fact that you're blaming HER for the whole problem on this ground pretty much says it all."

Does that statement contain any sort of actual argumentation?

"But anyway, you're right, it doesn't matter how he actually feels about it, because his actions are saying something else!"

You do realize you just made the exact same failed argument, merely substituting "actions" for "feelings"?

"Specifically: I have chosen to disregard your stated lack of interest in our threesome activities,"

Sure, by actively involving you in ongoing planning, and continuing to bother you about when we can start up again. Oh, wait, I didn't do any of that. Leaving you entirely alone regarding threesomes is insufficient regard for your stated lack of interest. Apparently "your stated lack of interest" is supposed to mean "my resulting lack of interest." As everyone knows, your interests ARE my interests.

"and I have chosen to speak for you falsely to others, as I ask them when we can meet."

Because she will never be in the mood again, or if she does eventually get back in the mood, obviously she won't like any of the people he's been lining up.

"More generally, what this says to his wife is, I don't care that much about your feelings, even when you're miserable!"

No, that is how you choose to interpret it. There is actually a difference. And there is any amount of relationship literature that regards statements of that sort -- "If you really cared about my feelings, you would [Activity X]" -- as emotional violence.

"So that's why I think he needs to do something to show her that he does indeed care about her feelings, and knows he made an error, and that he's feeling grief just like she is.

In other words, feel grief the same way I do, react as I would react, do as I would do, have your wants and desires wax and wane in concert with mine, effectively be me, or else you don't care about me. Do you have any clue how narcissistic you come across?
216
Even if being gay were a choice, how is it impacting anyone else? Who cares what consenting adults choose to do together? I don't care if straight couples choose to have vanilla sex or off the wall, crazy kinky sex because it doesn't affect me in the least. Why do all these stodgey old men care so much?
217
@51 Bravo, Crenoline! That is the most succinct explanation of natural selection I've ever seen. Don't bother looking for that book which does it better; WRITE it instead. Please.

@DanSavage re: Choicers. Bravo! F***ing BRILLIANT! My regard for you has its ups and downs; it's never been higher than after reading that (except maybe the time you infiltrated the GOP convention).
218
@39 My third "Bravo!" of the evening.

"Politicians who (will likely always) believe it IS a choice should have to defend why people shouldn't be allowed to make it."

Indeed! My new mantra.
219
Most people I know it would be hard to convince that being gay *is* a choice. They know too many people who found coming out of the closet meant they lost their job, their friends, family members, etc. It's easier being a professional badger-thrower than being gay.
220
Thanks to #217 I focused on #51 again.

A gold nugget buried in a pile of ....; good enough to get me to break my word in #200!
221
#85 - You love your husband, he loves you, but he cannot or will not "perform." Is he willing to try to satisfy your sexual needs in other ways than PIV intercourse?
222
Stephen Colbert pretends to be a rightwinger, but he is most definitely NOT one.

He takes the rightwing positions and exaggerates them to ridiculousness, but I guess you might be fooled into thinking otherwise if you didn't see all of Colbert's routine.
223
Dan a bit pissed off at being grouped in with ignorant people because I have looked into very compelling evidence on the events of 9/11 and realize the case for an inside job is undeniable. In this case it is you that isn't looking at evidence and am being very hypocritical. You don't have to take my word for it Dan, over 1,500 architect and engineers have LOOKED at the evidence and are willing to put their professional credentials on the line. www.ae911truth.org check out the blueprint for truth then talk about who is ill informed.
224
@209 Suzy, I'm not clear why you are continuing to conflate @165's thought-police grandfather funeral episode with the C&H OP. I see little room for interpretation of "he's already out thinking about fucking other chicks" which is obviously so "inappropriate" and "I have found men are really dumb".

For what it's worth, I've certainly thought about sex at funerals although haven't raised it at the time - amazing really that a male could have a smidgeon of emotional intelligence, but there you have it. Personally, I find the morbidity excessive sometimes, and what better antidote - at least in thought - with something life-giving, life-affirming and joyful. There's also the Carpe Diem aspect, and who knows, it would be what grandpa would have wanted himself. As I descend downwards at the end of my days, I'd be delighted if the mourners were planning a jolly good session after the sandwiches and tea.

What I fail to see from your comments is how on earth someone is supposed to communicate what they are thinking or feeling in the circumstances (since you so generously allow them to think), or double-guess what's "appropriate". For one thing, it's very hard to prevent yourself - even if you try your best - from leaking those feelings, and in a way it's lying if you don't talk about them. How on earth are you supposed to assess the other person's feelings if you don't ask eventually? I understand that there would be a common understanding to hold off round a funeral, Miss Manners would not approve, but this is not anything to do with the experience of C&H - it's irrelevant. The issue with C&H's H is that he wasn't sharing (perhaps out of consideration), and that what he apparently wanted was way different to her - that doesn't make him wrong for his feelings.

@215 put it quite well: "In other words, feel grief the same way I do, react as I would react, do as I would do, have your wants and desires wax and wane in concert with mine, effectively be me, or else you don't care about me"

I'm quite happy to agree that C&H's H made a mistake and can do with understanding that - more associated with the underhand and misleading nature of it being the problem. I think there would have been a big shock in seeing the chasm between her feelings and - we don't really know - his feelings.

But far more importantly, both of them should be sharing & accepting their feelings - raw, inchoate messy - and provide whatever support and comfort to each other they can. Not retreat into judgemental isolation.

For the OP of C&H, we found the book "Silent Grief" helpful.
225
GHTR, did your attraction to your boyfriend fade when you moved in together? Then there's a very good chance it's the commitment and not your boyfriend that's the issue. And gotta love the way you triangulated your co-worker into the drama!

You don't "love" your boyfriend because you're too selfish and immature to actually love another person. Adults don't deal with relationship issues by cheating. They deal with the issue. I agree you should break up with your boyfriend because if he's ready to make a commitment, then he deserves another adult who is willing to honor that. Then you need to have a good, long think about what you want and who you are. People like you cause a lot of heartbreak in this world - your idea of "love" is based entirely on yourselves and what you want and the other people involved have no more meaning to you than toys to a toddler.
226
@ 94, 122, 223 Yes, thank you. It's very possible to be a longtime daily Savage Love reader and also have questions about 9/11. I know five. Dan seems to think a whole lot of people are something they're not.
228
I hate to tell you this, Dan, but if the WTC towers and Building 7 really collapsed due to fire alone, the laws of physics were broken. Do I want to believe this? No. But I have to believe it, because scientific evidence doesn't lie. If you had done any research before making your claim, you would realize that there is physical evidence for controlled demolition and none for natural collapse.
230
Shove it up your ass, @227
231
@227 no, no, come back and turn off the damn bold this time. Please!
232
Is it possible for someone else to turn it off in a subsequent message by adding one last close-bold tag? Testing, testing...
233
All of these "choice" vs. "innate" arguments are short sighted. The fact is that for some people it may be a choice. Does that make them a lesser class of homosexuals/bisexuals/etc? Are they somehow "less homo" for their choices? Sexual preference for some people is just that - and if you claim it's not, then you get a different, scarier kind of nut - the kind who thinks that they can find the genes/trigger and eliminate it.

Don't encourage people to try to find your "gayness" by earlobe size or haplotype. Defend the rights of all LGBTe, regardless of their affiliation or how they came to join you there.
234
All of these "choice" vs. "innate" arguments are short sighted. The fact is that for some people it may be a choice. Does that make them a lesser class of homosexuals/bisexuals/etc? Are they somehow "less homo" for their choices? Sexual preference for some people is just that - and if you claim it's not, then you get a different, scarier kind of nut - the kind who thinks that they can find the genes/trigger and eliminate it.

Don't encourage people to try to find your "gayness" by earlobe size or haplotype. Defend the rights of all LGBTe, regardless of their affiliation or how they came to join you there.
235
@232 trying to unbold <\b> here. Did it work ?
236
It ain't easy. Three are needed, but < and > get rewritten as < and > automatically. I wonder how 227 got its own to work ?
237
Yess ! :-)

@17 and 30 : I'm female and if I could choose, I would choose gay.

First reason : because most males I've met have been domineering assholes. Yes, most female could be assholes too. But they wouldn't all have the physical ability to kill me or rape me barehanded if I disagreed with them.

Second reason : I'd rather I were not attracted to dick-having humans. It would make sex less torturing. I wouldn't have flashbacks of my father's dick during sex - more than 20 years after. May he rot alive and die in pain.
238
I don't really see what the big deal is with the gay as "choice" vs. gay as biology argument. Even if being gay was a choice, so what? What's so wrong with choosing to have a relationship with someone of the same sex?
239
I'm married and monogamous and happy about it, and I spend platonic time with former lovers. My husband knows where I am and what I'm doing, and he's welcome to come along, as are the other spouses, many of whom have become my bonus friends. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't, mostly according to what else they have on their calendars. I've known my husband for a ridiculously long time, including many years of friendship only, and so some of these men are his friends, too. My husband can also recall how I acted toward him when we were "just friends," and recall that I was never inappropriate. (He wasn't either.) The question isn't whether he can trust them. It's whether he can trust me. We both think he can.

Oh, and men are the straightforward gender, the ones who won't make you guess what's on their minds? Not in my experience! In my world, at least, y'all are at least as vague and contradictory as women, and often require even more guesswork.
240
@30 guilty as charged, thanks for the perspective
241
@145 Yes, that's it! "Poor Thing" lacks the gender connotation of "poor sod" and sounds kinder, too. I'm changing my vote to DtPTA.
242
"Stephen Colbert" pronounced Cohl-bare (noun): A sarcastic satirical character on a COMEDY Central television show who regularly mocks right wing politics by pretending to be one of them. Key instances include running for the Republican seat in his home state of South Carolina and representing FEAR at the "Rally for Fear and/or Sanity" with Jon Stewart.

Stephen Colbert(no quotes) pronounced Cohl-burt (noun): The actor/comedian who plays the satirical character "Stephen Colbert" (pronounced Cohl-bare) on Comedy Central and sometimes takes this character into appearances on other shows and events.

Ah, satire may be well and alive, but the ability for the Interwebbians to grasp it is in late stage necrotic decay, rapidly approaching death.
243
You must hear this a lot, but I think you are a pig. Your advice to the man with the small penis was terrible. A pubic trim helps size,lotions, and antihistamines, and of course the Enzyte can help to add size to an unhappy man.
244
Right here. I'm sick of patriarchal bullshit but have never wished to be a lesbian. All the women I know, straight, lesbian and bi, are as fucked up by patriarchal b.s. as any of the men I've dated. They're not all that much easier to get along with, either. Just sayin'.
245
Re: Girl Hot Tin Roof -- I've been in similar situations to hers, but not because I didn't love the men with whom I was in the situations. It was because I was scared silly of being in a committed, close relationship. I should note here that I am an incest survivor, which no doubt is at the root of the problem, but it's possible GHTR is, as well.

Just a possibility that she may NOT be an MF.
246
Re: Girl Hot Tin Roof - My first reaction was that GHTR was scared and wanted to sabotage the relationship with her boyfriend that she was getting more serious with because of a fear of intimacy. On second thought, when I read that she had absolutely no regret about it, it made me agree with Dan Savage that she just doesn't have any feelings for the guy and she needs to get out of the relationship.
247
I think the "choicer challenge" could backfire tremendously. If John Cummins thinks it's a choice, there's a good chance he's a closet bisexual. If that were the case, he could call Dan's bluff.

Obviously he wouldn't because he's a prude, but still.
248
(Pulls up John Cummins on Google Image Search)

Damn, Dan. You're taking one for the team on this one, huh?

    Please wait...

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