Columns Oct 19, 2011 at 4:00 am

Pathological

Comments

106
Guys? I think I'm going to start referring to your balls as a turd-sack. Not out of hostility. Just 'cuz it's a funny play on words, see?

And because balls kinda look like a sack of turds. Admit it. You know I'm right.
107
I loved the shitting egg comment. It didn't stick with me until everyone complained because their panties are to tight and up there asses. It is a fucking joke.
108
But it really is like our vaginas murdered someone and have to get rid of the evidence.
109
@48, 50

As someone who just recently married the person who I have been dating since I was 16 (I am 25), I have to say that I am very, very, very glad that I did not listen to my hormones at 18-19.

We had to do long distance relationship for the 4 years we were in college, and I know that I would have done a lot of things (people) that I would now regret. I am so glad that I was able to talk myself out of the random crushes that I formed that were based just on appearance.

I know that in this column it is often mentioned that married couples have crushes---and that it can be a fun part of a relationship to talk about these little crushes, as both partners know that they are not serious.

Why is this advice not given to this girl? Just because she is 18 does not mean she does not know what she wants. Its a little pet peeve of mine as for the first 3 years of my relationship I was told by just about everyone that I needed to be realistic about my relationship; I was told long distance relationships/transitioning high school to college relationships never last. Well, here I am almost 10 years later.
110
Turd sack.
111
@48, 50

As someone who just recently married the person who I have been dating since I was 16 (I am 25), I have to say that I am very, very, very glad that I did not listen to my hormones at 18-19.

We had to do long distance relationship for the 4 years we were in college, and I know that my hormones would have had me sleeping with a lot more people than I wanted to. We kept a monogamous relationship which worked for us, though we did tell each other about the crushes that we had on this hot guy at the bar, or this girl in Statistics. Our communication made our relationship work.

Before you jump to the conclusion that she needs to dump this guy and explore, realize that that is not for everybody. It sure wasn't for me. I found a great guy early, and I am glad I did not dump him for the first hot guy that wandered by. And I really do not feel like I have missed a thing.
112
Gah sorry for two posts! The first was a rough draft that accidentally posted. Oops.
113
You should be out of the gene pool, mra. The last thing the world needs is another self-absorbed egomaniac who wants permission to abuse some stupid woman who deserves you, actually, and I know that because she obviously hasn't disfigured or crippled you in order to spare you the trouble of agonizing over whether someone else is the one who is truly hot enough for you. Do I sound a bit pissed off? I'm a bit embarrassed because I could be you, but I'm smarter. I also practise zero tolerance of self-indulgent morons. That means Zero tolerance, dude. I encourage everyone I know to practise zero tolerance of people like you as well. Don't even think of polluting the species any further. You are not what Darwin had in mind when he formulated the theory of survival of the fittest.
114
"shitting egs"...bahahahahaha! Love it! gives me an excuse for my overactive libido
115
Shitting eggs is a fantastic way to describe the asshattery we do when in that state.
116
*eggs*...oops...was laughing while typing :p
117
I'm gonna be laughing all the way into menoshit now!
118
Shitting eggs for ovulation is a bit over the line. If anything shitting eggs should be during your period, natural, kinda icky, ridding the body of something no longer serving a useful purpose.
119
She's 18. Good grief. There was a time when, more often than now, girls like her were dumb enough to marry the first boy they liked and live most of their life assuming they had low libidos and just weren't that into sex.

And THAT'S when the sexy roomie (or gardener, or coworker) would come around and snap them out of it.
120
@107 and everyone who cries "Panties! Wad! Panties! Wad!"

"Shitting eggs" isn't a joke, it's a vulgar (and obviously intentionally humorous) Savage-ism for ovulating. Just as "canned ham dropped from a great height" was an early Savage-ism for vagina. It sounds funny and, oh hey? It's also hostile.

Why is it cool for ol' Dan to get his turd-sack in a wad when someone cracks wise about the gay, but not cool to call Dan out on his hostility towards lady bits and breeder-type sex? Um, I guess that would be because most of the people reading this column are Dan fans and have their heads crammed so far up his accepting butthole they'll defend everything he writes, whether merely direct or openly assholish.

Hey y'all, I love SL too. That doesn't mean I blindly swallow everything he spews. Dan himself publicly apologized (as much as an apology as he ever gives) for the canned ham comment. He's not completely un-self aware, thank god. Defend the comment all you want, it's still openly truculent.
121
@101
Ovulatory shifts in human female ornamentation: Near ovulation, women dress to impress
http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton…

Changes in Women’s Mate Preferences Across the Ovulatory Cycle
http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/~lchang/mater…

Reading men's faces: women's mate attractiveness judgments track men's testosterone and interest in infants
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…

Women with high-pitched voices go nuts over men with deep voices
http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2…

Sexual dimorphism of male face shape, partnership status and the temporal context
of relationship sought modulate women’s preferences for direct gaze
http://alittlelab.stir.ac.uk/pubs/Conway…

Effects of menstrual cycle phase on face preferences
http://www.mendeley.com/research/effects…

Men’s Faces Convey Information about Their Bodies and Their Behavior: What You See is What You Get
http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/ep064…

Interactions between masculinity–femininity and apparent health in face preferences
http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content…

Raised salivary testosterone in women is associated with increased attraction to masculine faces.
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art…

Menstrual cycle alters face preference. Nature 1999;399:741-742.
http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v39…

Fink, B., & Penton-Voak, I. (2002). Evolutionary psychology of facial attractiveness.
http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/11/5/154.…

Wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_at…
122
I knew a gay couple years ago in Austin. One owned a gay bar and the other managed it. It soon became apparent that their sexual foreplay consisted of public argument. Then they would go home and have great "make-up sex." That was their thing, until every gay bar in town had thrown them out and barred them because of the adverse impact their fights were having on other bar customers. Finally, we realized that was why they went to other bars to fight, so that they wouldn't drive the customers out of their own bar!
123
How right you are @65, how right you are. Sometimes Dan is poppsych major and has a weird interpretation of facts that are plain dumb.
124
@120, well said! I think shitting eggs is funny because it's just funny. I see it as him being a jackass all around, not just to the ladies.

No doubt, the canned ham, the ignoring attacks on our rights to reproduce & the general sexism catholicism & being gay has bred in him come out - but this column, I thought was just damned funny. Well said.
125
Dan, I love you, but your response to FANTASY really weirds me out.

Speaking as someone with degrees in related fields (a BSc in Biological Anthropology and an MA in Social Science Research), who is about as pro-science and pro-Darwin as you can get- I think you need to be more cautious about referencing evopsych research in your columns.

A LOT of evopsych studies are based on results from a small number of Western college students (either explicitly hetero, or just presumed so). There are excellent reasons for this (finite research budgets being one of them), but a good researcher will highlight the fact that their study was based on a limited sample, and then ideally go on to do follow-up research on a wider range of people (David Perrett is a good example of an evopsych researcher who does both these things, as well as being a generally cool guy).

Too many evopsych writers, however, will just cite a study on a tiny number of straight Western college students and then trumpet the findings as if they apply to the entire human species throughout history. It pays to be cautious.

Beyond that, evopsych is supposed to be talking about universal human tendencies- which makes it a poor source for advice tips to one specific person, IMO. Think about it- say someone wrote in to you saying "I'm a man married to a woman, but I'm pretty sure that I'm 100% gay, and now my wife is talking about having kids together." Would you respond with "well, 90% of men are straight, and we've all evolved to be good at reproducing, so statistically speaking you should suck it up and get her pregnant"?

Speaking as a woman who ovulates- in my specific experience, there have been phases of my life where my sex drive has felt like it was rising and falling in relation to whether I was ovulating, and phases where it hasn't. But it's never been my experience that the TYPE of person I'm attracted to has changed over the course of a cycle. For all I know this makes me a minority among women, but it makes me cautious about using the ovulation theory as a major basis for your advice to some woman you've never met- especially when she's 18 years old and probably has a pretty vulnerable sexual identity.

Also- it sounds kind of like you're saying that "manly men" and "nice guys" are two completely separate groups of people. I'm familiar with the line of evopsych logic you're drawing from, but it seems like a weird thing to say in a more general sex advice context, especially since you're generally pretty good at calling out people who try to apply only one standard of "manliness" to everyone with a Y chromosome.

TLDR: I generally agree with your advice, but I think you dropped the ball on this one.
126
Dan, I love you, but your response to FANTASY really weirds me out.

Speaking as someone with degrees in related fields (a BSc in Biological Anthropology and an MA in Social Science Research), who is about as pro-science and pro-Darwin as you can get- I think you need to be more cautious about referencing evopsych research in your columns.

A LOT of evopsych studies are based on results from a small number of Western college students (either explicitly hetero, or just presumed so). There are excellent reasons for this (finite research budgets being one of them), but a good researcher will highlight the fact that their study was based on a limited sample, and then ideally go on to do follow-up research on a wider range of people (David Perrett is a good example of an evopsych researcher who does both these things, as well as being a generally cool guy).

Too many evopsych writers, however, will just cite a study on a tiny number of straight Western college students and then trumpet the findings as if they apply to the entire human species throughout history. It pays to be cautious.

Beyond that, evopsych is supposed to be talking about universal human tendencies- which makes it a poor source for advice tips to one specific person, IMO. Think about it- say someone wrote in to you saying "I'm a man married to a woman, but I'm pretty sure that I'm 100% gay, and now my wife is talking about having kids together." Would you respond with "well, 90% of men are straight, and we've all evolved to be good at reproducing, so statistically speaking you should suck it up and get her pregnant"?

Speaking as a woman who ovulates- in my specific experience, there have been phases of my life where my sex drive has felt like it was rising and falling in relation to whether I was ovulating, and phases where it hasn't. But it's never been my experience that the TYPE of person I'm attracted to has changed over the course of a cycle. For all I know this makes me a minority among women, but it makes me cautious about using the ovulation theory as a major basis for your advice to some woman you've never met- especially when she's 18 years old and probably has a pretty vulnerable sexual identity.

Also- it sounds kind of like you're saying that "manly men" and "nice guys" are two completely separate groups of people. I'm familiar with the line of evopsych logic you're drawing from, but it seems like a weird thing to say in a more general sex advice context, especially since you're generally pretty good at calling out people who try to apply only one standard of "manliness" to everyone with a Y chromosome.

TLDR: I generally agree with your advice, but I think you dropped the ball on this one.
127
Well, another feminist here. I thought the "eggs" comment was hostile and not funny, and it jumped out at me as I read it before I even got to the comments.

I DO like "turd sack" though. It's a much better visual.
128
Agreeing with 125. The "nicest" guy I ever dated was also the manliest- the biggest and strongest, with the heaviest jaw and muskiest smell and earliest testosterone-caused pattern balding. The biggest jerk was a weedy artiste, under six feet with a pointy chin.
129
Ms Emalie - Granted, many gay males are sexist, but how does simply being gay breed sexism?

I agree with Ms Apoptetic that Mr Savage's term was vulgar with a side of hostility. She found an excellent counterpart; they're both overreactions to some quantity of justification.
130
Let's imagine that the studies on women's varying attractions during different times in the cycle were based on better research methods. Imagine that there were more in the study, that it was known when they were fertile, the whole shebang. It would still only say something about what sort of men the women were attracted to and therefore who they were slightly more likely bed. ATTRACTED to is the operative word.

None of that discounts the hundreds of other factors that go into choosing mates. That's a choice of a one night stand, the choice of a monogamous marriage, the choice of a monogamish marriage, or the choice of a long term affair.

Think of all the reasons we're attracted to someone and don't end up having sex with them. Looks pretty but is something of a jerk, don't want to ruin a committed relationship, have to catch a bus, to name 3 out of thousands more.

This is why I find evolutionary psychology interesting, maybe closer to fascinating. I really like the subject and think it has a lot to teach us about the human condition. But call it science to the extent of basing policy on it? Apply it to an 18 year old asking for advice? To do so would be to dismiss everything else about her situation and personality. That's an insult right there.

Thus my advice to FANTASY-- Move out! Get out of that living situation. Then talk to your boyfriend about your attractions to other men (without getting specific about the (ex)roommate). See what he thinks. You don't know if he wants to be committed and faithful at age 18 and thinks he's ready for that. You don't know if he's been thinking along the same lines and wants to break up.

But whatever you do, don't start an affair with the roommate such that you're cheating on your boyfriend in his own house. That's just mean, and nothing in your letter suggests that he's done anything to deserve that.
131
Why does straight best man care about gay divorce rates? I think that was a concern troll. One thing you don't hear about gay marriage, especially with men, is the very low rates of men taking advantage of the right to marry (where it exists). Marriage is about 2 things, property and children. Since most men can't pop over to the sperm bank to grow a fetus (or pop over to a frat party for the budget conscious gayelle) marriage is only really important for end of life medical decisions and inheritance (I would say immigration, but because of DOMA gay spouses can't immigrate). And besides, romantically, most gay men are like Liz Taylor, but with more sense and less money to waste on divorce lawyers.
132
I say leave MRA alone. We don't know the full extent of the situation. I would guess that his girlfriend is very clingy and that is the main reason he keeps her around, and it sounds like he is being as charitable as possible about how supportive she is of him. There was a reason he was a dick to her, and I think it had a lot more to do with her personality than her looks. I think MRA is trying to paint a nice picture of her and being very selfcritical at the same time. She is obviously more desperate than him (4 years older, and she hadn't even dated a guy before). He just wasn't that into her, and her efforts to make it into more than it was caused him to be a dick to her because he really wanted out. She didn't take the hint, and now he's STILL stuck with her and because he is almost as inexperienced as her he feels bad about dumping her. His instincts are right. He needs to make a clean break and stop settling (I'm not talking about settling for someone's looks, I'm talking about settling for someone he's not that into). Dan is telling him he is worthless and will probably never get anyone else, and that's probably how he felt and part of why he stayed with the girl (in addition to the guilt of breaking someone's heart). That kind of kindness is ultimately cruelty. And it leads him to more guilt and feeling shitty. If you find yourself being an asshole to someone when you aren't normally an asshole to everyone, it's time to step back and consider that maybe deep down you don't like them and don't want to be around them. Deciding the fault was his own shallow standards and then sticking with the clinger did no favors to anyone.
133
@129 (Crinoline): Well said.
134
"Shitting eggs:"
It's kind of funny.
It's kind of gross.
It's kind of misogynistic.
It's kind of guaranteed to get a lot of response.
It's kind of deliberate
And it's representative of the way that Dan often expresses himself: like a fifteen-year-old hoping to shock. Phrases like "fuck the shit out of," "asshat," "douchebag" (covered somewhat extensively in a recent podcast), "batshit," are not chosen for their subtlety or nuance. If you don't like that kind of talk, you probably shouldn't be reading or listening to this column.

You don't necessarily have to lose your feminist card by laughing at it, either.

Although in thinking about it, I realize that Dan is somewhat obsessed with excrement . . .
135
This egg-shitter lulzed hard @ "shitting eggs."
136
really? Because I thought the "go fuck your boyfriend's brains out while you're shitting eggs" is hilllaaarriiiooouuussss. Also, I am female.
137
Oh God, that last letter could've been about my sister and her boyfriend; they've been together 11 years and all they do is fight every moment they're awake. Just like our parents did. AAGH! No wonder I'm single!!
138
@132 re 129 - seconded.
139
125-- Nice. Good essay. I wish I'd said it as well.

Now let me weigh in on shitting eggs. If there's anything followers of this column have learned (or should have) it's that there's a huge variety in what we find sexually attractive. A related concept is that there's a huge variety in what we find disgusting.

My tastes are utterly ordinary (healthy men, roughly my age, that I have something in common with and can talk to, who find me attractive in return). Deep down, I suppose I'm a little weirded out by the idea that there are women out there who aren't attracted to the same, but I'm polite enough not to make a big deal out of it or to make fun of them (or to support laws that make them outcasts).

Same goes for tastes in disgusting. Again, I'm utterly mainstream. I'm not big on body wastes like piss, shit, or menstrual flow (though I rather like the smell of underarm sweat) and consider them things that should be disposed of sanitarily. BUT, I'm polite enough to acknowledge that people are different. I'm not thrilled with the idea that there are people out there who think my body when ovulating is disgusting like shit, but I can live with it.

My verdict: Not especially funny, but not particularly insulting either.
140
You're right @128, I said that wrong. Not all gay men are sexist - some are (been to the Orphan Andy's in the Castro??) Sorry to imply that all gay men were.
141
@133 - you nailed it.
142
@101 "Participants were 76 men (who had been interviewed and videotaped
while competing for a possible lunch date) and 238 women (who rated the
attractiveness of men from the videotapes)."

... you call that "reputable" ? At least 1000 women would have been enough to give a significative result. And let's remind what a serious protocol means : when you're looking for a difference, don't try just to experiment what would prove your point, try as well what wouldn't.
143
And thanks EricaP (104) & Crinoline (125) !
144
Shitting eggs is a terrible thing to say. You should never make up funny turns of phrase to describe things, especially if they are lewd. That would make you an asshole, a douchebag, or a crusty old cunt.
Also, we should all act like crusty old cunts when someone tries to be funny.
145
this feminist is loving the 'shitting eggs' metaphor, thanx man, peace
146
Sorry 132 but if he simply wasn't into her he could've broken up with her. Treating her like shit is not a viable option.
147
@110: LOL!! I love it!

Yes, all kidding aside, it's as many posters have already aptly pointed out: Dan is gay, therefore, the vulgar sexist barbs at women (i.e: shitting eggs, uteruses and vaginas described as "canned hams dropped from 30 story buildings", etc.). I think it's more Midwestern-bred acidic sarcasm than any direct hostility toward women.

Thanks, Dan, for a continually great column, and all of you posting---I haven't laughed this hard in months!
148
Sorry 132 but if MRA no longer wanted to be with his girlfriend he should've just broken up with her. Treating her like shit is not an option.
149
Shitting eggs is awesome and feels qutie appropriate when I'm ovluating. It will go well with "shitting out a crotch fruit" which is already part of my lexicon.
150
@ peeps who think to much on shitting eggs: if you are any bit of feminist you think you are you would have commented on the "douchebag MRA's" letter of horror instead of shittin'eggs.

for instance:
@79 good point you have there.

love,
eggshitter.
151
"shitting eggs"? REALLY?

EARTH TO DAN, YOUR SEXISM IS SHOWING.
Yes, you have less than a LOT of guys out there.
But that's just fucking rude, yo.

Disapprove.
152
Some people on here are using ovulation and menstruation as synonyms and that would be incorrect. Ovulation is the release of an egg 14(ish) days after menstruation. You still menstruate regardless of if you ovulate (due to birth control, breastfeeding, ect.)
153
"shitting eggs"

Personally I could have done without it. Its not sexism just because its vulgar. Men are pretty gross about themselves too. It would be sexist to expect men to write a sonnet every time they mentioned girl parts. Honestly, how tedious would that be? Not just to write but to fucking read.
154
@146: "Sorry 132 but if he simply wasn't into her he could've broken up with her. Treating her like shit is not a viable option."

...unless she's one of those women who knows how to exploit his guilt, and likes to hold it over his head. Remember, this isn't a guy who just wants hot chicks; this is a guy who wants hot chicks AND FEELS GUILTY ABOUT IT.

Everyone wants to conceive of MRA's girlfriend as some saintly figure, but it's just as possible that she's some passive-aggressive, manipulative creature who knows exactly how to push the right buttons. She was probably attracted to him in part because she knew she could set up this kind of dynamic, where he's always the bad guy with the wandering cock, and she's always the victim who'd be Ever So Good To Him If Only He Could Love Her The Way She Deserves.

He thinks he's treating her like shit; maybe sometimes he is, because no doubt he has incredible resentment towards her, but maybe she's also acting the part of the martyr to exploit his guilt.

The older I get, the more reliably I find that whenever there's a situation where one person looks like a saint and the other one looks like Dr. Evil, it's usually the saint that's the bigger asshole.
155
"Shitting eggs" was hilarious!

Men don't think with their dicks? Women don't deal with hormonal fluctuations? Don't be such a bunch of hipsters. Accept that you're human, and recognize that being human means having the ability to identify and mitigate all the times when biology and anatomy conspire to overcome reason.
156
It's quite a leap from virgin in your 20s to unattractive. I'm 21 and still a virgin, as are a reasonable number of people I know. Some don't believe in sex before marriage, some aren't 'conventionally' attractive, but there are others, like me (I'm not being oblivious, I'm not smoking hot but I am attractive), who no-one probably would have predicted would still not be getting laid. For me my problem is that I don't enjoy any of the small talk etc that leads to getting laid, and I send off all the wrong signals.

And yeah, the last romantic prospect I had I turned down because I didn't find him a attractive and saw him only as a friend, but for nobody else would you ever suggest they should date someone out of desperation, and I wasn't going to do it (again). I'm not looking for a model, but someone I could fuck without wanting to think of someone else doesn't seem too much to ask.
157
"Shitting eggs" was hilarious!

Men don't think with their dicks? Women don't deal with hormonal fluctuations? Don't be such a bunch of hipsters. Accept that you're human, and recognize that being human means having the ability to identify and mitigate all the times when biology and anatomy conspire to overcome reason.
158
To all of you hating on MRA, I was in a situation very close to his. When I broke up with my first girlfriend she insisted that we "remain friends", I put that in quotes because to her that meant she would try to get back together with me and cockblock me. It wasn't till I quit hanging out with her that we both moved on.

I wonder how many of you would have a different response if MRA was a woman breaking up with her first boyfriend because she wanted to bang hot men?
159
@158

If she would have had shitty things to say about his looks and wanted to continue using him as a "pillar of support" while she ran around, keep dangling him, giving him hope while she banged other dudes, the response would have been the same.

Oh wait. No. It likely would have been far more vitriolic, because the phrase "pillar of support" would have been taken to mean "financial support" and she would have gotten flamed to hell for that.
161
Come on everyone, Dan is funny amongst other great attributes. He's a funny guy...the "shitting eggs" comment was meant to be funny.
162
All of you defenders (mostly male is my guess) of MRA have to realize that considering the information that we HAVE, not just made up to justify his shitty behavior, makes him a an asshole. He admitted it himself. It really just seems that people are defending against something they feel bad about in the past. I would say the same about a woman, in fact there have been recent letters that address bat shit crazy women (not for the exact same reasons, but just as shallow). Nobody deserves to be used and have mind games played on them, like this guy considered, and still may, do. Don't men always rag on about how women play mind games? Never fun. I guess I don't see why he can't just be the self admitted jerk that he said himself! I also don't see why people are saying to stay with her, she (and he, so he claims), deserve better.
163
As far as I understand, ovulation is far less like taking a shit and a lot more like popping a zit. So ladies POP eggs every month or so. Or they should.

But I've never seen it happen, only read about it in all my textbooks, so I can't say for sure.
164
It is interesting to hear Dan repeat the canard that half of marriages end in divorce. He is usually better informed.
165
Ms Emalie - Thank you. Now I won't lie awake all night with various half-formed theories struggling to piece themselves together.
166
I agree 162. In the end Dan can only advise based on the information given in the letters and emails.

Maybe MRA ex is manipulative and horrible, or maybe he was a jerk. And I'll point that it's not the ex accusing MRA of behaving it's MRA himself.
167
That should be 'misbehaving'.
168
EricaP @92--

Gangestad, S. W., Garver-Apgar, C. E., Simpson, J. A., & Cousins, A. J. (2007). Changes in women's mate preferences across the ovulatory cycle. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 92(1), 151-163. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.92.1.151
.

There were a few others, but those were focused on Evolutionary Psychology, which is largely pooh poohed around here.
169
Dear FANTASY:

Dan's advice is actually not bad. But if you decide to follow it, please find a new place to live first. Unless of course you enjoy social, emotional, and financial disasters that are beyond Biblically epic.

Seriously, that's the kind of shitstorm that took out the dinosaurs.
170
"Shitting eggs" takes me back to a time before Dan became "Mainstream". When his awesome sense of humor was what kept me searching out his column week after week. I miss him!!!!
171
I'm sorry, "Shitting Eggs" is hysterical.

Sometimes things are funny because they are so ludicrous.

Dan Savage knows eggs don't come out of your rectum. It's a joke.

Being humorless is one way to keep people far away from feminism.
172
I also want to add that there is a very common issue among women of this age (especially those with male abandonment in their history) to use sexuality to "make" men love them... They don't do it consciously or maliciously, but often their libido comes with a sense of power in luring someone to love them. Once the love is there, they quest for the power that getting someone to fall in love with you brings. It becomes addictive.

I know this happens with men as well, but my specialty is women so I can only speak to that with much confidence.

She could easily want the new guy simply because he is new, too. Newness makes all sorts of happiness pheromones fire in our brains.

I'd suggest if she thinks it might be about the power of the "catch", that she get to the root of her low libido and see if there might be something to it.

Just a thought.
173
I agree 154. Letters where on side is pure good and the other pure evil are eyebrow raising to me.

In this case it's the author who's admitting to being pure evil and that throws a bit of wrench into things.
174
Rick Santorum Googles Santorum: OMG!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-txummH…
175
Rick Santorum Googles Santorum: OMG!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-txummH…
176
@163 Stiny: I'm assuming you're a guy if you "only read about it in your textbooks"....in high school? College?

We women ovulate where we menstruate. And it's more like we plop eggs rather than pop 'em like zits.

@175: Santiagojjlr: OMG!!! LOL!!!! I love it!!!
177
Dan, Dan, Dan - Late blooming isn't always an indication of hotness (though this guy's ego did need a kick in the head as it's obvious he was a self-absorbed ass). Some people just don't *get* relationships or in touch with their sexuality until they are older—either because of low self esteem, cluelessness, or they are so damn obsessed with college/whatnot. I was nineteen and my reason was being terrified of men (don't get me started about my fucked up childhood).

Also, I've met some really ugly fugly people who got laid when they were very young and really nice looking folks who were late bloomers. Before I met my husband I hooked up with a male hottie in his early 20s who was a virgin. He wanted a relationship, I was a little older and not interested in relationships so I just asked for NSA sex (which he eventually agreed to).

Of course it could be because I'm older now that that early virginity loss = hotness lines are more blurred. Upon a Facebook search, I realized some of the hotties from my high school either had bad genetics or lived life hard, and many of the geeky/dorky/weird kids learned good hygiene, social manners, and/or style. ;)
178
Dan, Dan, Dan - Late blooming isn't always an indication of hotness (though this guy's ego did need a kick in the head as it's obvious he was a self-absorbed ass). Some people just don't *get* relationships or in touch with their sexuality until they are older—either because of low self esteem, cluelessness, or they are so damn obsessed with college/whatnot. I was nineteen and my reason was being terrified of men (don't get me started about my fucked up childhood).

Also, I've met some really ugly fugly people who got laid when they were very young and really nice looking folks who were late bloomers. Before I met my husband I hooked up with a male hottie in his early 20s who was a virgin. He wanted a relationship, I was a little older and not interested in relationships so I just asked for NSA sex (which he eventually agreed to).

Of course it could be because I'm older now that that early virginity loss = hotness lines are more blurred. Upon a Facebook search, I realized some of the hotties from my high school either had bad genetics or lived life hard, and many of the geeky/dorky/weird kids learned good hygiene, social manners, and/or style. ;)
179
On "shitting eggs":

The very discussion here in this thread -- pros and cons and mehs -- supports, I think, the idea that offensive language does have a role to play.

The question to me is not whether or not "shitting eggs" is offensive -- it clearly can be interpreted, and used, as offensive. The question to me is (are), (a) why did Dan say this? Was he trying to offend?, and (b) can you use it non-offensively?

Plus the overall question that everybody avoids, why do we need offensive language (so that it keeps forming itself no matter how utterly we destroy/avoid/argue against it?)

Should Danny change? I'd need to know his intention. (If he's just being 'boyishly offensive', as his choice of often disgusting language -- remember "fucker mother"? -- shows, then I don't really think there is a need to change.) Should "shitting eggs" remain as an expression? If you like it and find it funny (and there are good arguments for that), use it; if you don't (and there are good arguments for that, too), don't; and let the free market decide.

What I would do? Since I'm usually a mild-mannered guy who'd blush if he ever had to say in public the kinds of sexual words Mr Savage often writes in his columns, I probably will never say "shitting eggs." But I won't mind if others do, and even find it a little funny myself. :-)
180
@163 and 176: Actually, Stiny's kind of correct. Through the miracle of ultrasound (and the difficulties of fertility treatment) I actually have seen myself ovulate, and it's kind of like squeezing out a clogged pore or an ingrown hair. Each month one of our many many eggs grows in its own tiny pocket until it looks like a giant (relatively speaking) boil on the side of the ovary, and when it's ready it "pops" out before making its way to the uterus. This happens entirely internally--nothing leaves the body. Some women might feel a brief pain in their abdomen when it happens; others (including me) feel nothing. "Shitting eggs" comes closer to describing menstruation, when our bodies flush out the unused egg and uterine lining, but that's at the opposite end of the cycle from ovulation.

I have to say again that I think that Dan's advice to FANTASY missed the boat. The ovulation theory is IRRELEVANT to her situation, because there is no evidence that her attraction to either guy waxes and wanes with her cycle--she specifically says that she wants to fuck ugly roomie ALL THE TIME, not three days out of the month. And of course if she's on the pill or other hormonal BC she's not ovulating anyway, and all bets are off.
181
Re MRA: I was in a relationship that was nearly perfect in every way except one: The initial attractiveness I felt for her due to common interests and the newness of it all faded over time. After some time I was not sexually attracted to her. Not wanting to be an asshole by dumping an otherwise great woman and hoping perhaps it was just a phase, I stuck with it...for 3 years. Then I did what I should have done years earlier and broke it off, leaving her heartbroken and somewhat bewildered. I was crushed with guilt, but it had to be done.

"It wasn't meant to be," is all I can say about it now and I've learned a lot about myself and relationships since then, but there is no way I could have ended the relationship at any point without being an asshole.

The fact that MRA is being an asshole and *knows* he's being an asshole indicates he's not some quite the self-absorbed prick he appears to be at first glance, but that he's acknowledging his own weakness. He's not an asshole for wanting an attractive partner; he's an asshole for not being emotionally committed to the relationship and not letting the g/f go, just as I was.
182
@168 - that's the same study linked at 101/102. The scientists assumed women were fertile based on actuarial estimates and self-reported "last menstrual period," but did not check if the women actually were fertile during the test dates. (See @104 for details).
185
@121, I missed your links before – sorry!!

(Request for those not reading on: if anyone can access #6, that study seems the most likely to have some relevant data for us to discuss: http://www.mendeley.com/research/effects…)

Otherwise, here are my responses:
#1 is not bad, except that "all women were judged to have an LH surge between three days after and two days before their high fertility session." Note that the ones who had the LH surge two or three days after their "high fertility session" weren't in fact fertile during their "high fertility session," because they were still about five days from ovulation.

#2 is the same one I debunked @104

#3 doesn't test variance across women's ovulatory cycle so isn't relevant

#4 ditto

#5 ditto

#6 I can't access – can anyone get in and report on how they tested for fertility?

#7 doesn't test variance across women's ovulatory cycle so isn't relevant

#8 ditto

#9 is interesting because it was not measuring fertility per se but instead testosterone in saliva. I'm not sure how that correlates with fertility – presumably not perfectly or women would use that as a fertility predictor. In any case, I can't get access and would be interested if someone can provide me with a description of their methods

#10 like #2, they just estimated fertility based on women's self-reporting of their last menstrual period and the length of their cycles. This is not a reliable way of determining fertility, as many children of users of the rhythm method can testify.

#11 seems to be a summary of other research, rather than new research itself. I can't access it, and would appreciate it if anyone with access can report about whether it was studying female ovulatory cycles.

#12 is a wiki page, and obviously not scientific evidence of anything.

Thanks for playing!
186
Yeah, while the process of ovulation is hardly delicate or lovely (involving the maturation and subsequent violent RUPTURE through the ovary wall of said egg, leaving a bloody crater behind..."the weaker sex" my ASS!) I too found "shitting" to be a rather harsh decriptive.

I suppose it comes down to the nature of the PRODUCT of each process (ovulation vs defecation). I would be equally repulsed by the association of shitting and sperm production, FTR.

And #1 is a dick,
#2 is too young to be in a monogamous relationship (ovulating or not...I will admit to being extra horny around that time, but usually that means being more interested in ANY man/sex in general),
and of COURSE the religious Right has no legs to stand on when attacking Gay divorce, but when has that stopped them before?
187
@156, "someone I could fuck without wanting to think of someone else doesn't seem too much to ask" – In an ideal universe, that might not be too much to ask. But maybe you're not wired that way. You may be wired to think about "someone else" (not the person you're fucking). That may be hot for you, in some deep inescapable way. Just something you might want to consider.
188
@185: "...Note that the ones who had the LH surge two or three days after their "high fertility session" weren't in fact fertile during their "high fertility session," because they were still about five days from ovulation."

Sperm can live up to 5 days in the woman's body (though 2-3 is more typical). Why the so-called "French" or "strict" method of fertility awareness birth control mandates NO unprotected sex prior to confirmed ovulation and death of the 24 hr living egg.

It is perfectly possible to get pregnant from sex you had DAYS before ovulation. So those women WERE potentially fertile (and at least, if motivated by some evolutionary, reproductive imperative, likely driven to be on the prowl for "Mr. Right") ;)
189
@Hunter

Been there, done that.
Women generally don't love creepy old men commenting on their reproductive organs. Your friend probably picked up on that.
190
@188 I said it wasn't a bad study. Yeah, maybe these women had a subconscious feeling they might be almost sort of fertile, and so they dressed nicely to impress guys.

Or, maybe women wear their nicest outfits when they are not close to their period because have more confidence that they will not stain their clothes. Or maybe women feel less bloated close to ovulation, and so they dress nicely to impress other women.

Nothing about the study proves that they were trying to attract guys in order to have more sex during their fertile period. And even if it did, that wouldn't prove Dan's point that women in LTRs go looking for extracurricular sex with someone more studly than their partner. Maybe they dressed nicely to have more sex with their LTR partner.
191
@125: You hit the nail on the head about the essentialization and overuse of small studies in evopsych.

I'm a 23-year-old in a long term relationship with a now-20yo woman who had a similar experience to FANTASY's at around age 18. I was freaked out at first, but we talked about it for awhile, and I remembered that I'd had a similar "slut period" at around that time, as had many people I knew. I told her if she really felt the need to hook up with someone else, or put our relationship on hold and try dating someone else for awhile, I was okay with it--after all, I'm her first boyfriend and the only guy she's had sex with, so I don't begrudge her the desire to try something else before she gets all settled. In the end, the desire mostly passed, and it stopped being an issue in our sex life when she stopped feeling guilty about it. When she started thinking about experimenting with girls, we tried a threesome with a friend of hers, and she decided it was fun but not her main interest. Whether we end up married or not, I think we weathered that one pretty well.

So I'm totally supportive of the advice that breaking up is a serious option to consider, but like kerplank @109, I can say it's not universally the way to go, and that anyone who thinks they can definitively tell an 18 year old what s/he wants sexually is bulshitting.

And since everyone seems to be weighing in on "shitting eggs:" I'm on the side of vulgar, but not especially offensive. But then, I only shit sperm. And I agree with the earlier commenter who said it's much more polite overall than "on the rag" is.
192
@163 Stiny & @180 nedibes: Thank you for sharing further insight on Stiny's discussion about ovulation & menstruation. You are both right in that it does actually make sense about "popping out"--at least, regarding the ovaries. It really is more of a plopping for me, personally, however (I guess my zit-zappin' days are over long over).

And unfortunately for me, it's still a mess no matter how you slice the Snickers bar, and consequently I'm reeeeeeeaaaaaaaally looking forward to finally entering menoshit.
193
God damn it. You had to throw in the Occupy Tea Party at the end there, didn't you?
194
@176/192

I'm the proud owner of a uterus and two ovaries, and I am a medical student. I have never personally witnessed ovulation, though I am told that highly sensitive ultrasound machines can detect it. My Obstetrics and Gynecology rotation did not afford me the opportunity to spend time with a reproductive endocrinologist, so all of the women I saw were either already pregnant or trying not to ovulate or past menoshits (LMAO on that one). I can't comment personally on ovulation either, since I have a broken pituitary gland and my whole system fails to function.

According to my textbooks (Andreoli&Carpenter's CECIL Essentials of Medicine and Lippincott's Obstetrics and Gynecology 6th edition): Ovulation occurs when the mature oocyte is ejected from the follicle through a rupture in the germinal epithelium of the ovary, along with a couple of milliliters of fluid and an entourage of supporting cells (the zona pellucida). The now-empty follicle is called the corpus hemorrhagicum because it bleeds a bit (this can cause localized irritation of the peritoneum, triggering the transient sharp "mittelschmertz" pain that 1/3 of women experience) before healing into the corpus luteum. The mental image of the fluid, zona cells and egg squirting out just seems so much like a popping zit to me.
196
#25 FTW! Get that tongue moving, Dan. *cracks up*
197
Ms Erica @187 - It's occasionally intriguingly difficult to tell whether your posts are intended as inquiry or advocacy. Very thought-provoking.
198
@197 :-)
199
Mr Ank - Well, if you're going to advocate so fiercely for the wider spreading of certain terms, the least you can do, surely, is to give them a trial run in front of Mrs Ank (Apologies if I have confused you with someone else and there is no Mrs Ank). I'd be most interested, for instance, in how she reacted to your redirection of the F word - but it would have to be without advance explanation.

That was one of those thoughts that I began much more unseriously than I ended. It's a habit.
200
@194 Stiny: I'm sorry I misunderstood your post from @163. You had mentioned only reading about it in textbooks; I unfairly assumed you were a male (simply meaning that men don't menstruate, ovulate, and couldn't get pregnant even if they wanted to because it won't ever happen to them biologically without a sex change operation first).

Thank you for your helpful information---mittelschmertz explains a lot.
I'm partying hearty when I hit menoshit! I definitely have Messed Up Junk.
201
@200 Naw, auntie, don't feel bad and don't apologize. I really don't know any more than most people, I just have fancier words for stuff.

@180, I sure hope your fertility treatments were/will be successful. Undesired infertility is terribly painful and frustrating, perhaps just as much as undesired pregnancy. Good luck and Baby Dust to you. I'm pretty sure I'll be there myself in a couple of years when I finish school.
202
Don't ask a question if you're just going to get pissed about the answer.

My age has nothing to do with it. Her age does. So go ahead and surprise me by saying she's not significantly younger than you. Go ahead now...
203
I'm a 32 yr old woman,and I think shitting eggs is really funny. seems the women are less offended then the men. that's pretty sweet of you boys, but it is really fucking funny....
204
Here's a dumb question: can anyone approaching menoshit
have Messed Up Junk from 10 plus years of sexual inactivity?

@202 mydryasis: I won't get pissed about your answer.
I''m a college-educated 47-year-old female U.S. military veteran who, once-upon a time, long ago, and not so far away, got stupidly married, then thankfully divorced, and there's actually little that really surprises me very much anymore.
Getting off birth control and dumping an asshole helped.
205
I thought 'shitting eggs' was funny, too. To me, it meant that she was going hormonally nuts while ovulating, that her system was spewing hormones along with egg(s), and that everything was in a state of batshit crazy, leading her to horn after what her system may have detected as an 'alpha male' sort, that through eons of 'evolution', from which we have never been able to fully free ourselves. I saw it as things going all haywire, just, all over the map. BAH!!!! "I'm horny as fuck, wanting to fuck any male I can reach because my hormones are going nuts, I'm fertile as hell, and I'm shitting eggs all over the damned place!" An over-exaggeration of the mayhem taking place.
207
@154 If she were the manipulative martyr you've imagined, it seems to me that the LW would have at least hinted at it, something like: "We have these endless conversations where she reminds me of how good I have it, and then I feel like shit again."

I personally think that it's cruel to stay with a person who doesn't do it for you and that it's emotional immature to turn that lack of attraction into some self-involved melodrama of "Omg, am I an asshole for feeling this way?"

No, you're an asshole for focusing on what those feelings say about you rather than acting on them in a way that sets the other person free to find someone who genuinely wants them.

If he feels "entitled" to "someone hotter" as some bedrock principle, I think he's probably a dick. But I also think that we'd be better served if we made a distinction between the normal "I'm just not attracted to this person" and the much more shitty "I am attracted to this person but socially ashamed of it because they don't measure up to some external standard." The former is regrettable but blameless. The latter is the sign of a loathesome, insecure and conformist coward.

Lastly, why the hell are we devoting the better part of this thread to a discussion of the comedic merits of two fairly harmless words?
208
Dan is exactly right about MRA. He still isn't all that hot. MRA forgot to mention I used to be a stunning single mother of one. He was actually 24 when we met and I was 29. I was stunning till MRA got me pregnant , I had his kid and now I am fat. Even in my fatness, our hot babysitter still tried to make out with me, not MRA. I just did such a good job of convincing him he is hot, cause he was hot to me. Not now that I see him for what he really is, and what he is, is pathetic. He left me with 2 kids, he is actually gay, well, bi, and I wish to all holy hell I could just be rid of his nerdy ass. I'll be hot again soon, and he will still be an asshole. THAT, is the short story. I was always out of his league and still am.
209
143-- Let's give credit where credit is due. Vulture is the one who wrote that great essay in 125. I'd like to hear more from her. I just said I liked it and wished I could express those ideas as well as she does.
210
WHAT YOU GUYS DON'T KNOW ABOUT THIS DOUCHETARD MR MRA, is that he just had a baby with this woman. Who which by the way is actually very pretty, and very sweet. She has also stood by his side through all of his BS and philandering. Another thing you don't know is how he controls her and doesn't want to let her go. I'm not even sure why he's writing you Dan to be honest. He's the guy that wants to have his cake and eat it too. I say he needs to get HIS ish together. She was perfectly good enough and pretty enough to give him his first born son, not to mention he was going to adopt her daughter, but now she's not good enough to stay with? He sounds like a low rent asshole who will never be happy with anything that comes his way. I really wish I could post a a pic of MRA. Id be really interested to see everyones feedback his looks. : ) Just trust me when I say this. He will never do better than the relationship he just threw away like yesterdays garbage. Good luck pal with all your back alley findings. Gross.

I hate guys like him. They don't deserve to be with anyone. Especially not someone as great as his "ex." - Piss off from SL with love

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