Columns Oct 19, 2011 at 4:00 am

Pathological

Comments

212
@Auntie/Hunter

It was directed at Hunter.
Hunter your question wasn't IN the quote although I believe when you originally posted the story your question was something along the lines of "that girl was wrong to get offended, amirite?"

Though you didn't repost the question it's not a hugely unreasonable assumption that you were reposting it in hopes of the same validation that what you said wasn't indeed creepy or offensive.

So congrats! You technically got me. You didn't ask a question.

And Auntie: you've had 10-plus years of sexual inactivity?

213
@212 mydriasis: Yep. It's a weird situation: while I'm happy to be on my own and in a safe, loving environment, I have little to no sex drive anymore.
That and there's really nobody that I feel close enough to have sex with, a decade after my divorce. No bitterness, just lack of sexual interest.

Lately I have been experiencing painful pelvic exams, and have been using a vaginal lubricant to alleviate dryness, prescribed by my gynecologist. Unfortunately, it's just plain, simple biology: despite my taking vitamins, maintaining a good, safe hormone balance, staying active, and living an otherwise peaceful, healthy lifestyle, the road to menoshit, for me, really sucks.
214
@211, Actually I am pretty sure this did come from my ex because it came from this computer. I am not the type to trap anyone, and being the single mother of two was not exactly a dream come true. Raising my first child completely on my own and I never asked for anything from anybody. If MRA, hadn't convinced me that he was at least respectable enough to support his end of the deal, I would have explored other options. He has narcissistic personality disorder, and it is evident in every aspect of his letter. from stating that I hadn't had other relationships (trust issues), implying I must be so horrible I deserved it, to making me cry- implying that he has a lot of power, and also that crying somehow shows that I deserved it. No one has any idea the embarrassing, horrible things he has done to me ,or that I tried my hardest to treat him with respect and compassion. He basically thought that writing this would give him the validation he feels he needs ( I don't think if you want to leave someone that you even need a reason, just do it.) to ditch out on his responsibilities and go fuck around. I figured as much would happen, and didn't want that kind of lifestyle but was still willing to be friends. I am just tired of getting shit on by this guy, you know? Especially when Dan's guess was exactly correct. No, he wasn't ugly and at one point I considered him to be the most handsome man alive. But that's when I was wearing love goggles. I was really pretty though, and I think it's OK to stick up for myself, and I would love to not have to deal with his shit anymore. He just left out anything that would make him seem less... in the right, I guess? But like I said, When you want to go, just go. You don't need a reason.
216
@214: This guy says he "is" 24 and she "is" 28. He also says he has known her for a year so far. That would have made him 23 and her 27 at the time they met. (It also means you two would have had to have gotten pregnant within the first month or two.)

Your story is that he was actually 24 and you were 29 at the time you met. This also implies that he is now 25 and you are at least 30 today. Sorry, but your respective timelines just don't line up well enough. Maybe he's lying about those details, or maybe it's just a remarkable similarity. (Big world out there.) The evidence so far doesn't lead me to conclude that Letter Writer is your guy.

Your guy sounds like a complete asshole, and I'm sorry to hear your situation. I think it is sufficient for you to tell your own story on its own merits without insisting on conflating it with this Letter Writer (who, by the way, has already fairly well gotten his ass handed to him twice now, once in SLLOTD, and once in the weekly column).
217
The odds of either MRA or Dan leaving out the fact that they have a son together seems really far-fetched to me. But, hey, Team-o'-People writing at 208/210/214, tell us more about this: "he controls her and doesn't want to let her go." How is he controlling? Are they still living together? Is this a case of domestic abuse? Or is it the child they have in common that binds them together?
218
Just thought I'd mention that "shitting eggs" is used in Australian slang in no way associated with ovulation. It means to be freaked out/panicking/stressed such as in "When I saw that black-snake heading for the kids, I started shitting eggs."

It's pretty acceptable outside of formal situations.
219
I am a firm believer in this: If you don't want a girl to act like a crazy bitch, don't treat her like one. It's remarkable how well people handle the truth when you grant them the due respect that accompanies honesty. People say "The truth hurts". I personally believe lies hurt a lot more. The truth hurts when you have been lying to yourself, and when someone has been lying to you. I think that accepting truth can be hard enough without the added humiliation of also being deemed worthless enough to be deceived. When you lie to someone, you are assuming that they are not smart enough to figure out the truth. So when you find out you have been lied to it is often a double whammy. Who cares if MRA is People Magazine's Sexiest Man Alive? He's still an emotionally retarded asshole. Beauty really is in they eye of the beholder. Ever met someone you thought was gorgeous and then after getting to know them, you find them almost repulsive? I think MRA owes that girl that girl a real explanation, explaining just how superficial he is. She'll feel respected and most likely take the whole thing a lot better.
220
@201: Thanks for the well-wishes! My treatment was successful--ART is truly amazing nowadays, although it's scary how very little is still known about the mysteries of hormones. Baby dust in a bottle to you, for when you're ready for it :).
221
i think the guy in number one was probably 'not attractive' in some way, then overcame it (worked out, got his teeth fixed, etc). enough already with the eggs comments!
222
@221: Oh, come on! We're not laughing at MRA (although he is a bit of a turd sack). Lighten up!!! We're laughing (at least I am) at Dan's comment about "shitting eggs" because it's part of being female!!

Don't you have a shared "guys' anatomy" term that cracks you up?
Enough said.
223
I really only would have accepted "laying eggs"......as that is a common reference to females in most species, most notably hens. If all your gayness will allow for is to equilibrate female humans to hens, I can allow that, Dan. But shitting eggs is unacceptably offensive. You should publish a retraction.
225
eww. shitting eggs? Dan. Promise me you'll never repeat that expression. K? Promise?
227
@Hunter

Saying the most offensive thing you can think of is a classic troll move, I'll give you that. But it's a bit pedestrian, don't you think?

I'm going to assume that's a non-sequitor, since I can't imagine how anything I said relates to that but I'll bite anyway!

I'm Canadian, and proud to say we don't have republicans here. The closest (most right-wing) is the PC party and I don't vote for them. They are more akin to your Democrats. And if you're that interested to know how I vote. I generally vote for these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democra…
228
After wading through the comments, I'm left with three thoughts.

"Shitting eggs" made me laugh. So does South Park. Hostile and rude can be funny, if you don't have to share an elevator with it.

EvoPsychBabble 101 notwithstanding, a bad boy for casual fucking and someone a bit more stable long-term makes sense whether I'm ovulating or not. Doesn't it? And none of this has anything to do with my monthly arousal cycle, which peaks when I'm NOT "shitting eggs." So, yeah. I think she just wants to have sex with more than one person. Shock.

Finally, I don't get the "she's ovulating" joke. How the hell can I decide whether to be offended when I just don't get it?
229
@221 & @225: Would you rather hear "shitting sperm" instead?
230
Ross Douthat, the NYTime's conservative columnist, coined a great term today: "Santorum surge". He meant it earnestly but I would love to see it adopted more widely.

@109: I agree with you. My husband and I met when I was 18 and he was 20, and we've been together for a long time now. I know the probability of such a relationship persisting are lower, but I reject the notion that the probability is so vanishingly low that breaking up is the first suggestion when problems arise. I likewise reject the idea that you can only learn what you want and who you are by dating many people. It is a common theme here. I'm not especially bothered by it but people should recognize that some relationships do survive and might be worth working on.
231
I think vomiting sperm works better than shitting sperm.
232
@ΕricaP, re: ovulation cycle and changes in mating patterns,

you have done an impressive job of criticizing the assumptions and design of most of the studies that were cited here. I'm curious about one thing, then: what kind of design would you favor for a study to actually access this question?

Suppose, for instance, that I did a study without paying (at first) any attention whatsoever to the menstrual cycle of the participants. Let's say I found a way of measuring their level of attractiveness to certain kinds of male physiques and faces (perhaps by showing them a series of carefully chosen photographs of male models and then noting down which ones were selected by each participant as being 'sexier' or 'more attractive'), say, twice a weak over a period of several months.

Now, this might allow the researcher to determine whether or not there is any patterned variation in the choices of the sample of participants. If one plots participants against photos (or against photo features), any cyclical, repetitive pattern in the participants' preferences should become apparent. Now, should any cyclical patterns appear, one could then try to match them with the actual (or average) cycles of the participants (who would have reported their menstruation dates during the data-gathering).

Would you agree that this experimental design would produce results relevant to answering the question, or do you still see any problems?
233
Best column of Dan's in a long time. I LOVE your wordplay, and agree with your advice to each person. Keep up the great work!
234
@232: I'd take at least 1000 women, and pay them to chart their fertility for a couple of years, with the symptothermal (combination) method. (All young women who are not on birth control hormones should be taught to do that anyway - it's cheap, easy, safe, and useful.)

Over the course of that time, I'd have them come in weekly to complete a wide range of tests, enough so that they wouldn't bother to try to systematically affect the results.

I would publish my results with a lot of caveats about these being average results, not absolute rules. After all, the average woman is attracted to men, but some fraction are attracted to women. So, no matter the research, you shouldn't tell a real individual - "During your fertile period, you want to get pregnant by a studly dude, you slut." Which, in my reading, is essentially what Dan was telling FANTASY.
235
more @232 -- your design is fine, except that there's no reason not to gather more complete information about their ovulation cycles, not just their menstruation dates.
237
@231 RWGirl: Vomiting sperm!! Yeah!! Or how about puking sperm?
It truly is a projectile thing, isn't it?
238
So when guys cum, they are pissing sperm? EEW stop pissing in my egg shit! Or can we all grow up and admit that eggs and sperm are not eliminations of waste and give them the respect they deserve. After all its not even the egg that causes the reaction, its the hormones stupid!
239
@238 jojo: I said puking, not pissing sperm! Geez---what are you, a totally humorless, religiously PC, Republican bible-thumping pro-lifer? It-is-a JOKE! J-O-K-E!! Do you laugh at The Simpsons or South Park episodes? I have long since studied biology and I know what goes where and why. If Dan or anyone else can poke a little fun, I and others can, too, regardless of what anyone's hormones are doing, ya doofus! I'm surprised you even bother to read Savage Love if you're that uptight.

Repeat after me: HA HA HA. Take a deep breath. Exhale. Repeat this exercise until your panties or briefs are no longer in a wad.
240
If FANTASY has a long-term boyfriend, chances are she's on some form of birth control. Given her age, I'd say a hormonal form of birth control. That means she doesn't ovulate. That means Dan's answer is N/A.
241
Hunter, you probably study your own ejaculate. And yes, you did ask a question: "How dare I?"

I'll get that one for you: you're a self-congratulatory, defensive prick who can't decide if he's Frasier Crane or Sam Malone, still patting your own back months later for getting yuks out of your "working-class" bar "friends." I bet they can't wait til you go home.

That poor bartender, too. Tips ≠ respect.
242
@240 - most likely you are correct.

And for a lot of women, it's easy to tell when you ovulate - feels like someone is sticking you in the ovary with a pin for about 24 hours, sharp pulsing pain. Not terrible, but unmistakable. I get horny a bit before that, a few days usually - I wonder why the sudden spike, and then, ah, well, that's why. If I'm in a relationship or merely around men of interest, I won't be able to discern the spike as easily, but if I am separated from other humans for long periods of time (months, at least), it's a pretty significant and obvious leap in sex drive. It gets cloudy when you have other stimuli in the picture, but if it's just you and your hormones, pretty simple. Women really do have a hormonal cycle, and it does make a difference in our sex drive, not all that shocking considering it involves things like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone.
243
EricaP - can't you just do salivary hormonal tests to pinpoint ovulation? A lot less debatable than tracking cycles, and easier. Then you have people take an online quiz with facial images or whatever you are testing. You can have them come in to have it done, or have them do it online, which would encourage compliance by lowering the amount of work required. College students appreciate easy money, which this would be. They'd probably even do it for a cookie if you wanted to make them come in. You wouldn't need to use the same people over and over again, just have them come in for a baseline in order to qualify and anytime they feel like dropping by they can do the test for a snack. You get enough of this done, you've got a decent data set. You could run it cheaply for years.
244
@243 I don't know much about salivary hormone tests - can women do them at home so that they get a daily record of their fertility?

What's debatable about tracking cycles through taking one's temperature and examining one's cervical fluids / cervix position? Not hard, once you've done it for a month.
246
It's not pissing sperm, it's puking sperm. Don't you know anything?
247
@EricaP, what you said is basically the reason why I don't worry too much about studies showing that 'the general tendency' in the behavior of women (or men, or children, or...) is X, Y or Z -- general trends are only that, general trends, and even if there is some biological basis underlying them, it is still always the case that we in real life deal with individuals, who will deviate from expected behavior in a variety of fascinating ways (in fact, come to think of it, we tend to love in the people we love precisely that which makes them individuals, i.e., that which marks them as different from others, from the average, from expected behavior).

Which is why I don't worry so much about Dan probably suggesting "you wanted a studly guy because you were ovulating." Even if this is true -- i.e., even if it is true that there is such a tendency, and that there is an underlying biological reason why there should be such a tendency, and that this tendency played some role in FANTASY's feelings --, this doesn't mean that FANTASY as a person, even as a sexual being, is defined by it. Other factors -- psychological and cultural -- are probably much more important.

(And I point out Dan did offer the other hypothesis, which -- I'd say -- he clearly considers more likely. The whole "ovulation leads to wanting studly guys" thing in his answer look like a bit of an afterthought.)
248
@246 RWgirl: You GO, girl!
249
Oh, okay. I thought there might be some mythical way to tell if a woman's ovulating - you know, like a locker room fairy tale kind of thing - and the waitress was exhibiting signs of some sort. I'm always interested in cultural/gender tropes like that.

But if it was just a random sexual remark in a bar, meh. Whatever. I'd have to abstain from "small dick" jokes for the rest of my life in order to get legitimately outraged.
251
@247 - I thought he should have stuck to explanation #1 ("Part of dating, at your age, is discovering...what you want") and told her to find housing that would facilitate the kind of exploration she should be doing. Giving the fertility thing equal weight (explanation #1 / explanation #2) undermined the impact of his good advice in explanation #1.

He could have said: "It is possible that your body is attracted to different men at different times of your cycle; apparently that sometimes happens with women." I would have no beef with a low-key statement like that, especially if he followed it up by reiterating the strong advice to give herself the time and freedom to figure out what/who really turns her on.

But this is stupid: "Lots of women in long-term, stable relationships with nice guys enjoy manly-man-eye-candy when they're ovulating and then fuck their nice guy's brains out."

Men don't ovulate, but they like eye-candy. Clearly, lots of women like manly eye-candy. I like eye-candy (of both the manly and babelicious varieties), and I'm on hormones so I'm never fertile. Why focus on the fertility part, since that is based on uncertain science?
252
I think there is a third option for FANTASY. As people, we're sexual beings. We like sex; we like fantasy; and we like other people's naughty parts. Being in a committed relationship doesn't turn that side of us off. With an attractive new person around, it's actually pretty normal to want to sex them up. Lots of people in relationships have wandering thoughts occasionally, and that doesn't mean that they love their partner any less. Most of the time, an initial, lusty attraction to a person passes or calms down with time. Sometimes, it doesn't. If it doesn't pass after a month or so, then she can start feeling guilty and assess her current relationship. Until then, I think she should fuck her boyfriend's brains out, because he's the one who's been there for her and wants to continue to be there for her - emotionally, sexually, materialistically, in every way. And she shouldn't worry or feel bad about her body's natural reaction to a sexy roommate.
253
the whole shitting eggs is just one part of dan's general all-around grouchiness this time. which i am into. i would suggest he were on his period if that weren't also incredibly sexist, but there the whole he's-a-man issue at well.

jill
http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…
255
MRA's letter and the reactions to it hit too close to home for me not to register and comment.

He may just be an asshole, but the strange mix of merciless self-accusations and overt dickishness makes me picture a mentally rather unstable person.

In my late twenties (I am now in my early thirties), I sought professional help because my extreme mood-swings had started to affect my career, my friendships, my life... I was diagnosed with subclinical (i.e. not batshit crazy, but still noticeably unstable) bipolar disorder; and luckily two years of therapy (without any medication) worked out perfectly: I am now in a much better place.

During therapy, I also discovered that I probably had violated the campsite rule with almost every single woman I got involved with between the age of 20 and 30. 5-10 years ago, I could have been MRA.

The funny thing is: there is no winner in these situations, especially when romantically significant things happen in the course of that weird roller-coaster ride between hypomania and depression. You are being an utter asshole to others while suffering miserably yourself.

So - hoping that either MRA or Dan read this - I would like to ask MRA to have a hard look at himself and consider therapy. "You have issues" may sound like a affront, but the good thing about "having issues" vs. "being a natural certified asshole" is that issues are something you can work on.
256
@255 - the campsite rule is for when you're dealing with people much less experienced than yourself. I mean, it's always good to be a decent human being, but when you're in your 20s, no one expects you to have all the answers about how to be in relationships without hurting other people.
257
I am female and found the "shitting eggs" thing hilarious, despite the fact that I consider myself a feminist. Clearly the author isn't sexist based on his responses to these letters, so obviously the term was used in a humorous way, which I can appreciate. I don't think it has anything to do with ignorance of the female cycle, just a joke, people. Similarly, even though I have children- who I gave birth to- I found Bill Maher's use of the term "womb droppings" equally funny. Sometimes over-the-top humor is the best because it hits you unexpectedly. So, keep it coming Mr. Savage!
258
Astonishing that others are calling Dan up on his use of words which were indeed, in poor taste, but not one person seems to know much about anatomy. ONE egg is released per month. ONE. So, all of you who point out Dan's ignorance of female anatomy, look in the mirror.
259
I'm a woman and I found "shitting eggs" to be offensive. It felt like an aggressive hateful term, rather than funny. I also think it's unfair to assume that if a person hasn't lost their virginity by the time they are 23, they must not be hot. Having said all that, this is the first time in all the years I've read Dan's column that I found something to be truly offended by.
260
@258: I know that. But I still think Dan's "shitting eggs" comment was funny.
Okay, I'm done.
261
Dude, I'm not able to cognate "pillar of support that I truly need" and "not that important to me" in the same paragraph. You are one mixed up dude, and you should not be dating ANYBODY until you get your head straight. Break up with the poor girl, stand on your feet like a man and figure out who you are and what you want out of life.

Your need to have a conventionally hot girl to show off like a Maserati is a symptom of your insecurity, which is your problem, just like reveling in treating someone you allowed yourself to need crappy is a symptom of your problem. At least you have a glimmer you have some issues, but you're still framing it in terms of her. It's YOU who's got the problems, dude. And let me break it to you gently, but even if you were squiring around Brooklyn Decker, you'd still feel insecure. You gotta address THAT, not the girl stuff.
262
'Shitting eggs' is hate speech :(
263
@262: Are you a "Let 'em Die" Republican?

Hatred is what drove the Nazis to willfully kill 8 million innocent people in cold blood in the 1930s and early 1940s.

Dan Savage used the term "shitting eggs" sarcastically. It actually made ME laugh, because I understood the joke.

I don't see any connection between the two above statements.
264
It's so funny to me that the majority of the issues people have with the column are in regards to "shitting eggs". I've been reading Dan since I was a teen and he ALWAYS says shocking things. It makes people pay attention.
265
@264 KateRose: Yeah, I know! Anybody upset by Dan's column or comments can do the following, as Dan has repeatedly said, and I quote:

"Don't like my advice? Don't ask for it.
Don't like my column? Don't read it.
Got better advice? Get your own fucking advice column."

There---I feel better!
266
My problem with the s***ing eggs thing is that it's biologically inaccurate...
267
I am a female who has shat many any egg, and I found the line hilarious.
270
I'm a hairy-legged, lesbian feminist, and I thought "shitting eggs" was hilarious. Using it!

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