TOP

Freeze some sperm if you want children in the future, then snip snip, which usually takes care of unwanted pregnancies.

I haven't had time to read the comments so I apologize if someone else has provided similiar advice.

What about Fertility Awareness Method? No condoms, no spermicide, no other barriers are used unless you are fertile, which is about 8 to 10 days every cycle on average. This method is only recommended for people in a long-term committed relationship who are free of STIs and willing to communicate about fertility.

I suggest this because I become moody, depressed, and uninterested in sex when on hormonal birth control, I dislike the potential risks of the IUD (especially when a shallow vagina and a large penis collide), and my partner has sensitivity problems with condoms.

If you want to look more into this method, there are a few good books and sites out there. However, I highly suggest Weschler's "Taking Charge of Your Fertility." The method does involve commitment and the ability and willingness to stick to the rules.

Too many comments to read. So if someone already said this, oops.

TOP get the mirena IUD. It stops some women's periods, uses a very minimal amount of hormone locally (kind of like local anesthesia), and allows for unprotected sex with your long-term man. I love my IUD, but I have the copper one. Dear lord, don't get that...

@9: what @89 said. This came up in another thread and I'll repeat what I said there: "I've heard bisexual guys kvetch that many straight women really don't distinguish between "bisexual" and "gay" and so they run like rabbits from guys that are interested in MMF threesomes." The same applies to a lot of other transgressive openness: it's one thing for a woman to feel "wow, it's hot to see you in my panties", it's quite another for a guy to bring it up or admit to it, especially early on in a relationship: most women in this culture are still almost entirely invested in traditional notions of what constitutes a "man" that they will be hot for, and her panties usually aren't in the mix.

I'm 39. I hear you all. Going on and off the Pill is a bad idea. I hadn't realized that when I wrote and am glad to be educated. In my defense, the one time I was prescribed the birth control pill, that's exactly how it worked. You started taking it at the end of a period, took it for 21 days, stopped for 7, then started up again. According to package instructions, one was considered unable to get pregnant from the moment one started taking it, and one could go off it at any time with a need for back-up birth control if one skipped for more than a day.

Too gentle with the last one.

@99- Not sure where you got this information. Is it based on some research? A divorce lawyer told you? And while it remotely may make some sense I can’t see this happening as a “phenomenon”.

So just to promote my cause, and not based on any evidence whatsoever, I will “advance” the idea that if a woman marries an already-open-about-it cross dresser neither her nor the husband will never, ever, lose interest in each other. Is there any research out there to prove me wrong?

TRUE MEN ARE NOT AFRAID TO CROSS DRESS AND USE A CONDOM!!!

The way LITL tells the story, she was growing to like him, was considering telling him that she wanted a long term relationship, and got angry when she jumped to the conclusion that he was dumping her for a LTR with someone else. The way she tells it, it happened in that order.

Usually I'm all about believing the information contained in the letter, but this time I'm not. I think the order of events was different. I believe she didn't fall for him in LTR sort of way until AFTER she realized that he was no longer available. I echo earlier advice to LITL's ex boyfriend: RUN! This woman is psycho. She doesn't know what she thinks, changes her mind frequently, loses her temper on too little information, and blames you for her shortcomings.

Another thought. Do we know that the boyfriend told her he was looking for a relationship after he'd gotten to know her? I'm getting a picture of set-up or personal ad. His says he's looking for a relationship. She says, on first meeting, the one over coffee, that she wants to keep it casual. If that's the case, it makes her actions even crazier. He might have said he wanted a relationship-- but not necessarily with her. So he had sex with her while he was still looking. She may have assumed that his offer off a relationship was redeemable at any time because she was convincing herself this was the case-- despite his never giving any indication.

RUN! RUN!

In my birth control days, we used a diaphram and spermicide. I say "we" because his job was to reduce me to quivering jelly before we got to PIV sex, then he inserted the diaphragm. Shared responsibility, shared fun.

@17

Here is what I believe to be the study that I believe @6 was talking about:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24…

@17

Here is what I believe to be the study that I believe @6 was talking about:

http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn24…

@110:
If you use spermicide (or a lactic acid based gel) with the diaphragm, there is no need for extra lube.

I had a similar problem as TOP (but with my boyfriend, not husband). The pills were making me crazy and he didn't like it when I suggested going off of them because he'd have to wear a condom. Eventually, after a 3 week period I put my foot down "My body! My choice! No more drugs!" I quit the pills and promised to revisit in 3 months. At first he grumbled about the condoms but after about 8 weeks it became clear that without the hormones I was happier and hornier and the grumbling about condoms stopped. Maybe TOP should just go for it (promising to revisit in 2-3 cycles). He can adjust or not have PIV sex. And don't feel bad about doing this, he's only thinking about what's best for him (no condoms) so you should be thinking about what's best for you (no drugs). I don't think he's necessarily DTMF selfish, he may really not know how sick these drugs are making her, he may not have (or not remember) a point of comparison if she's been on them for a long time. Once she's off and he sees how much happier she is, he (like my guy) may realize how jerky his whining was.

seeker @99 "often a wife's desire to switch to condoms was the first flag that she had lost interest in her husband"

Rather than complex psychological motivations ("barrier to intimacy"), this seems a clear sign that either:
a) she thinks he's screwing someone else, or
b) she herself is screwing someone else and doesn't want to risk her husband's health.

I googled normster but couldn't find it... please, what's its url?

@117, lol. In case that wasn't a joke, Dan means that LWAM should try dating on kinky sites and also on non-kinky (normal) sites, such as OK Cupid.

71: "Essentially, what the not-really-boyfriend did when he had sex with LIL before telling her that he'd met someone else, was to rob her of her right to make an informed choice about whether she wanted to have sex with him or not."

Is this satire? Because if so, I am impressed. If not, thanks 86, for your efforts.

Regarding the cross-dressing, speaking as a guy not into that, but not opposed to a partner's request along those lines, my guess is success is yours if you approach it with lines like "Hey, time to fulfill fantasies, boyfriend! You name one, we will do it. After that, I have this one thing I want you to do with me, and gaawwwwwwd does it turn me on, so I am hoping you are down with it..."

So long as you don't invest too much seriousness into it, it will likely work; most guys are into horny women eager to have sex with them, and accordingly men will do things that make women horny and likely to have sex with them.

If he balks, back off, and let it be for a bit. He may get more comfortable with the idea, so return to it later, and smoothly ask if he changed his mind, because you are still interested if he is now willing.

If he gets crazed or angry about even the suggestion, well, that may be a function of a really straight dude's first time considering a partner's kink. Don't get defensive, a good guy will eventually find his way to accomodating you. Or that reaction may reveal deeper issues lurking...

To clarify my post @116: I don't mean that all married people who suggest condoms are cheaters or suspect their spouse is cheating.

But seeker was a divorce lawyer (if I recall correctly), so it seems likely that there was a high rate of cheating going on among the people he saw.

@86 and all your other posts in this thread:

It's interesting how invested you are in proving this woman's "bitchiness."

That's all.

@118 lol, now I get it, thx!

Coming from someone who has been on every birth control pill evaaarr, the Tired of Pills lady should really look into "natural birth control." http://www.tcoyf.com is a great resource. It essentially involved monitoring your own cervical fluid and basal body temps to figure out when you are fertile, and using condoms during fertile times (or abstaining, or doing other stuff). It's improved my sex life with my partner greatly.

@119, good points. Another way for LWAM to raise the idea is by taking her own silky, satiny underthings, and incorporating them into the blowjobs she gives him. When they feel the silky fabric stroking them, they are likely to understand the appeal on a visceral level. When they orgasm soon afterwards, they'll build a happy association which will lead them right where LWAM wants them.

@108: "@99- Not sure where you got this information." That makes me laugh. I used to post that I was an ex divorce lawyer all the time until somebody did a post rolling their eyes that I mentioned it too much. I also have had, over the years, a disproportionate number of lawyers and counsellors amongst my friends and acquaintances, and we shop talk. One of the consistent characteristics of divorces is how obvious warning flags seem in retrospect, and how often the sandbagged party saw them but didn't observe them.

@116: My statement doesn't oppose yours, it just parallels it: I saw it a lot in cases where the condom requirement was the first flag long before infidelity actually started, or where it never happened. It's a good cynic's rule of thumb that if a woman is upset with her man and asks for a switch to condoms (without medical "reason"*) then that relationship is almost over; she's still in the building but she has definitely checked out.

* "reason" with q-marks just means that there may be a medical excuse, i.e. whatever the "reason" is she didn't care about it when things were well, but it suddenly became important enough to act on when her feelings for her man changed.

@122: My original point was that he now has reasons to distrust her, and she had better be prepared to own up to them, if she wants him to take her seriously.

Messrs Finch/Seeker - The point of #9 had nothing to do with "questioning" her ex's orientation because he thought her request was "degrading". I don't think there is anything *orientationally* indicative about any particular attitude of any particular man towards wearing lingerie. What I thought my post clearly implied was that his orientation was germane to my opinion of his attitude.

You inferred, "Anyone with Attitude X can't (or might not) be straight." What I said was that I'd call a straight man with Attitude X (probably) a misogynist, but not necessarily a gay/bi man with Attitude X.

I am not trying to evaluate someone's orientation based on his expressed attitude; I am trying to evaluate his expressed attitude based on his orientation. Gay/bi men frequently have a history of being degraded in conjunction with being feminized that I believe justifies giving any particular gay/bi man a pass if he finds the prospect of wearing lingerie degrading. Such a man might still be a misogynist anyway, but on other evidence yet to be sought or supplied. I am open to the idea that there could be a factor of which I'm unaware that would similarly excuse a straight man, but, as mentioned, I'm unaware of it.

I know everyone just LOVES their IUDs, but there are good reasons not to get one. I was seriously considering getting one until my mom saw my pamphlet for it and she and I had a conversation about what hell she had been through with both the copper and the hormonal kinds- long periods, terrible cramping, etc. This wouldn't have mattered to me except that I basically got the exact same reproductive system as her.

So, just fyi, it's not always an old-fashioned doctor. I personally think the guy should just suck it up and go in for condoms, but I also think she might want to dump him if he doesn't care about the fact that she's miserable on pills.

Would just like to say that LWAM's fantasy is totally mine too! (28biF) You're not alone at all!

vennominon @128 - My point was fairly narrow: that a lot of guys with transgressive kinks learn real fast to be wary of disclosing them, given that our culture's generally accepted definitions of "masculinity" don't permit them. Put differently, Confess It And Lose Your Man Card. It makes it harder for women like the LW, because bringing it up lights up the DANGER WILL ROBINSON! in the man, but makes women like the LW triply valuable to those kinksters lucky enough to find one.

You said "You inferred, 'Anyone with Attitude X can't (or might not) be straight.'". This is incorrect. My view would be more accurately expressed as You inferred, "Anyone with Attitude X will (far too often) be taken as not straight, or gay." Put more bluntly, I have heard complaints from bi friends of the open-mindedness two-step:
GF: "Oh my god, boyfriend, a MMF is so hot. Two guys with each other is so hot."
BF: "I like the idea of another man in our bed."
GF: (thinks) "Oh my god, he's not into me he's into guys! Time to go!"

To be fair, I've heard it less in the past ten years. Whether that's because my friends have become boring and settled down or because people are getting better at sorting these things out in advance I couldn't tell ya.

Just a heads-up; a few have suggested different ways to track fertility as non-hormonal birth control options.

The Cycle Beads sound neat, except for the fact that they apparently operate on the same principle as the notoriously unreliable "rhythm" or "calendar" method (you know, the one so many Catholic couples with 13 kids use/d at the urging of the church?)

In order to accurately predict and/or confirm ovulation (and hence fertility) it is necessary to monitor the signs and symptoms associated with it...it can vary from month to month and from woman to woman and no calendar or other standard calculating device can be relied upon to catch those variations.

The little sticks you pee on to check hormone levels sound expensive (have you seen the cost of pregnancy tests lately?)

Much cheaper to just invest in a basal thermometer (more finely calibrated than the regular ones) and a tablet of graph paper....take your waking (or basal/base) temp. every morning and chart it on the paper. Takes all of 5 minutes a day before you get out of bed. Also monitor your cervical mucus and/or cervix itself.
(find a good book or look on-line for detailed info on the "fertility awareness" method).

The egg only lives for 24 hours, and sperm can only live inside your body for (at most) 4-5 days. So if you use the strict method (which, when used correctly, is as effective as the pill), and only have unprotected PIV sex AFTER ovulation and the death of the egg has been confirmed via temp and other signs (and don't risk it in the days approaching ovulation) that amounts to about a week a month of either abstinence or condom use.

Also, there's an awesome little device, a small lens you hold up to the light, which allows you to check your hormone fluctuations (and hence your approaching, declining, or absent fertility) by smearing a bit of cervical mucus OR saliva on the lens and viewing it (fertile or approaching fertile secretions reveal a "ferning" pattern).

But really, I would stick to temp and cervical tracking, at least until you are really experienced and confident.

For the writer with the selfish lover who'd rather see her go through health issues and misery rather than reduce his sensation or take responsibility for his own secretions, this might be a viable option.

Go OFF the fucking pill (it messed me up big time, too, for the 8 mths I used it way back when, and I am highly sensitive to spermicide as well) and spend a few to several months tracking your cycle and learning the method. If he wants PIV sex during that time, tell him his only option is wearing a condom. As it will be later if he wants PIV sex during your fertile times.

If he refuses to support you in reclaiming your health and power (over both your fertility AND his selfish manipulations) DTMFA.

@LWAM: your fantasy is totally mine too! You are definitely not alone!

seeker@126 I can see how it was a convenient diagnostic tool. But I just don't understand your confidence that you yourself knew when the infidelity started, or when her trust in his fidelity eroded.

seeker@132 "To be fair, I've heard it less in the past ten years."
There was a long time when gay men often married women to stay in the closet. (And therefore any indication of gender-bending was a sign he might be gay and the whole marriage was a lie.)

As it has become easier for men to be openly gay, it has become easier for women to accept that a little gender-bending doesn't mean a guy is repulsed by pussy.

@9 & @128 - you wrote:

"I ask because all the reasons that come to mind for a straight man to find the request degrading are rather misogynistic."

No offense, but that's just a limit of your own imagination.

Here's the thing: it's entirely possible that a bi or gay man might find it degrading to prance around in a male g-string - any many, regardless of orientation - might find dress up and parade around degrading - another way of saying "silly". The implication in your statement - the validity of your observation notwithstanding - that a gay or bisexual man would find feminine attire less degrading is an entirely fair basis for judging your statement. There's a lot of research to suggest that most cross-dressers are straight, so I also question the validity of your observation.

It might be the case that bi or gay guys are more comfortable in their own skins (sexual identities) and therefore better able to tolerate feeling silly (the Village People anyone?) but I believe (based on no evidence I can cite) that most "masculine" gay dudes would be less than happy if their partners started asking them to femme it up with lingerie.

In short, I'm guessing the first guy was just more comfortable in his identity and was better able at being GGG.

EricaP @135 re "I don't understand your confidence". Two reasons. First, sometimes the evidence established it clearly, either by admission or proof. Second, people who do something for a living get pretty good at drawing accurate conclusions from insufficient data. Could I have been wrong? Sure. But I'll take a pro's guess as to "what really happened" most of the time, and I was a pro.

@133:
The temperature method is not as fool-proof as you say. A fever, working shifts, getting really drunk etc. pp. all mess up your temperature curves.
I am not against it but it is not for everyone.

There is no birth control that works for everyone.

@128 "You inferred, "Anyone with Attitude X can't (or might not) be straight." "

Well, yes, that is what I inferred, and...

"What I said was that I'd call a straight man with Attitude X (probably) a misogynist, but not necessarily a gay/bi man with Attitude X."

...that is much more clearly put. I've re-read @9 and I see that you were trying to say:

"BF2 who refused might be bisexual because gay and bisexual people have a history of being degraded as 'feminine' and would therefore find the request degrading"...paraphrasing obviously.

I misread @9 to say BF1 might have been bisexual for agreeing to the request so easily.

I still believe that any attempt to correlate lingerie wearing as gender-normative indicator of orientation is likely to end in FAIL and only perpetuates stereotypes. Whether @132 is right (I agree with him) that anything non-gender-normative in men is a one way ticket to loss of man-card, and whether @135 is right in her justification of women's judgements in that regard, I think the underlying correlation is bad.

I do think that many straight women want "manly man" dominant/aggressive behavior from men - particularly in bed - and that any hint of non-andro behavior is probably a justifiable cause for concern.

@137 what kind of "admission or proof" can indicate that a person was NOT having other extramarital sex before that point? He eventually admits his affair with neighbor Sally; he could still be lying about the other affair he got away with last year. You cannot evaluate your "accurate conclusions" because you never got access to the Full Truth. People lie, even to their divorce attorneys and ex-wives.

And anyway, at some point his wife no longer trusted him, regardless of whether he had consummated any affairs. Her loss of trust is correlated with them coming to your attention, but doesn't mean that you have perfect knowledge of what got them to that point.

Seeaker @ 126 – I was asking because there was no indication you’re an ex divorce lawyer (divorced from practicing divorce law?). And since you are an authority, what’s the divorce rate among couples who got married already knowing the guy is into cross dressing? And I’m not talking about those who were hiding it for years, hoping to find a “cure” while feeling ashamed, and the wife freaked out once she found out.

Mary @134- What would you like me to wear for you??????????????

Oh, for fuck's sake, Erica. I basically said, "sometimes it was proven and sometimes it was an intellectual conclusion", and conceded that sometimes I might have been wrong. What doesn't that cover? At what point did I claim "perfect knowledge"? It's a comment on a blog, it doesn't have (nor should it have) four thousand footnotes, caveats, explanatory endnotes and a fekkin' glossary.

It is interesting, though, that you assume that it's because of a man's affair. I didn't take a stand on whose affairs (if any) we were talking about; all I said was "often a wife's desire to switch to condoms was the first flag that she had lost interest in her husband; it was the first barrier to intimacy placed between them, a part of the distancing process". Not always; not a majority of the time ... just "often". And if I'm not claiming "always" then, by defintition, I am not claiming that my comment covers all situations.

I had the same exact problem as TOP. I tried eight different kinds of pills. All of them made me feel awful. I suffered depression, weight gain, moodiness, irregular bleeding, you name it.

I refuse to take ANY hormonal birth control now. But fortunately, I found a very simple, safe, tried and true alternative that I now use - the Copper IUD.

The Copper IUD is nearly as effective as sterilization, it causes no mood changes, and you can get pregnant right away once it is removed. And if you don't want to remove it, it lasts for ten years. It is even same for women who haven't had children, and insertion was less painful that a routine pap-smear.

The only negative side effect was that my periods were a few days longer for the first few months, but they returned to normal six months out.

Now that I use the IUD, I kick myself for what I put my body through all those years when there was such an easy, safe and effective alternative available to me.

I don't know why doctors don't recommend this product more often, but I think every woman concerned about the side effects and reliability (who hasn't missed a pill once or twice?) should look into the IUD.

@Everybody weighing in on the condom issue.

Please show some empathy for those of us who got used to having sex after there was birth control, but before AIDS. In retrospect it was a free ride, a blip in history. But it got me started off on feeling that having sex was the physical expression of an overall intimacy, not just a way to help each other get orgasms. I know it seems corny and will forever keep me away from the more baroque practices discussed in these pages. But I really feel this way, and I bet a lot of other people my age do too.

Sure, I can get off in a condom. And that's exactly what it feels like. I'm there to get off in a person instead, and if a condom's involved we're both missing the point (beyond, of course, the mutual getting-off part).

So what to do. I certainly don't demand complete trust of the people I make love to, and don't ask them for that either. But I do get tested frequently. This means I'm asking them for three months' of trust, for the time period the test is good for. That excludes some relationships, true, but the kind I'm looking are certainly good for that.

"Please show some empathy for those of us who got used to having sex after there was birth control, but before AIDS"

No.

Or how about this. When those of you in that demographic feel like apologizing for being the major players in the genesis of drug resistant STIs then we'll talk.

Please show some empathy for those of us who got used to having sex after there was birth control, but before AIDS. In retrospect it was a free ride ...

Which is exactly why NO EMPATHY FOR YOU! Jealous rage will have to suffice. ;)

That joke said, there is often a fair degree of anger here aimed at people who don't like or can't bear condoms.

@142, You said the "first barrier to intimacy" was the wife's request to use condoms. That's what I'm disagreeing with. I think the wife's request to use condoms comes after intimacy & trust have already eroded significantly, 90% of the time. Most of the time, both partners are probably somewhat to blame for getting to that point. Asking for the condom is a flag to you, the professional. It may also be the first flag the husband sees. But I believe a wife has been seeing red flags for a long time before she asks to use a condom. (Leaving aside routine condom usage unrelated to the end of a marriage.)

I personally swear by an IUD if it would work for you (consult a medical professional beforehand obviously). Neither I nor my girlfriend are fans of condoms (although we're getting back into using them as we're planning some experimentation with other people). She use to be on the hormonal birth control and had problems very similar to those described above. The IUD has given her none of those problems. She loves it. That being said, apparently getting it implanted hurts like a motherfucker. Until that male birth control shot gets marketed here, I'd recommend an IUD.

Seeker, Avast, Snowguy, and all the others who think I'm taking the woman's "side" in LITL: I think you're reading into my comments some of your own issues. I was just suggesting that coming over, having sex with someone, and THEN saying "I've met someone else" isn't exactly a fair thing to do. People should know the status of others so that they can decide whether given the circumstances, they want to have sex. I'm not being hostile to the man, but boy is there a lot of male-commentor hostility being directed at the female letter writer.

@147: Erica, you're making an assumption, and one grounded in the sub-assumption that either directly or indirectly the man is to "blame" (for lack of a better word. Sometimes he is, and the condom demand reflects that lack of trust. Sometimes she is, and the condom demand reflects the diminution of her feelings of intimacy towards him, an intercourse version of "don't touch me", if you will.

nocutename @151: "Why are you angry with me, Captain? It's not me out of step, it's all these other guys."

nocutename @151: So, joking aside, your point is that if we call out somebody for acting like an asshole we are automatically wrong if the asshole in question is female? The assholishness magically disappears and we now have "issues" and are showing gender hostility? That's a fairly common argument to make in gender studies programs, but will it play here, I wonder.

And a lot of misreadings about what LITL's feelings SHOULD have been.
Look at her letter again. The first time they have sex he tells her he's serious; she's not, but they continue to date casually, and during the next month and a half, her feelings grow. Clearly, during that same month and a half, he meets someone who is ready for what he has to offer, and he tells her this after he comes over for sex.
LITL is angry with him for not disclosing that info before that last fuck, so she could have talked about what that means to the two of them, reacts emotionally, tells him to leave and then confesses to herself that she regrets having let him go. She was wondering whether she should try to tell him now that she really cares, wondering if she even has a shot.

Crinoline has taken it upon herself, in post #109, to second-guess every line in the letter, and to decide that the whole thing is the lying rant of a crazy woman. Cockyballsup and others are saying "hey, she is the one who said no to a real relationship, she set the rules, now she objects when he wants to follow them."

I ask all of you, quite earnestly: did you know from the first date or a first sexual encounter with someone, how you would feel? Have you never gradually felt yourself developing feelings when you didn't intend to? Do you believe only in love at first sight, and if it wasn't there, it can't ever be there later?

This isn't a game with rules, or a legal process: it's human emotion. She isn't asking to be held "right;" she's wondering if Dan thinks she has a shot at a second chance with this guy.

Here, this may be of help in clarifying the use of the word "issues":
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.ph…

@144: No. Your request for empathy for the old guys is version 837 of the oh-so-familiar "But it feels BETTER without a condom." No shit. It's a compromise you learn to live with if you want to have sex and be a nonwhiny grown-up about it, and no one wants to listen to the 837 reasons you'd rather just skip it. (The winner is still the person who suggested sex with condoms isn't even sex, thereby re-virginizing a host of people.)

The emotional component and intimacy are still there. The 'point' of sex, even the point of sex in a longtime committed relationship, is not destroyed, or even particularly affected, by the occasional bit of latex. (Unless the point is to get pregnant.)

Since the comments are rolling on, I will take my turn at noting that everyone who says "Talk to your medical professional about an IUD!" has missed the part of the letter where she did that and the doc thinks it a bad choice. (Past PID being one example.)

@155 (seeker6079): No, I think we should call an asshole an asshole, be the asshole male or female. If you've read my comments here, I do that. I don't take a woman's "side" just because I am one. For the record, I don't think either of these people is an asshole. This is an issue of mismatched timing. The guy had every right to continue looking for a woman who wanted what he wanted and to continue in a casual relationship with a woman who initially told him that that was all she was interested in.
But if he has met someone he wants to pursue in a more committed or romantic relationship (which I think is the most logical way to interpret "I've met someone else"), I think it was fairly crummy to disclose that information after having sex with someone else.

That's all I'm saying.

"I don't know why doctors don't recommend this product more often, but I think every woman concerned about the side effects and reliability (who hasn't missed a pill once or twice?) should look into the IUD."

Waaay back in the day, when the IUD was originally introduced, and was, as people now feel again, the Schnizzit, one of the more popular original versions caused massive uterine infections and other issues, leaving many women scarred (tubes) and infertile (my ex-wife is one of those), if not dead, after major hospitalizing illness. This was in the pre-IUF/IVF days, and it may now be possible for those same women to get pregnant, but it caused quite a poo-storm at the time and left a lot of people very gun-shy.

"I think you're reading into my comments some of your own issues. "

Oh, agree with you or we have "issues".

Say, what is the mental health equivalent of Godwin's Law, such that when someone claims you have issues, they lose the debate? If there is none, we should create one.

Hey, how option option C? Option C is we can be perfectly reasonable, healthy people who think you are wrong?

Staggering, I know, but in a universe of infinite possibilities, in one of those infinitive universes, you may actually be .... wrong. Or at least involved in a debate where reasonable minds can differ as to the conclusions.

TOP

Lysistrata until your husband becomes more reasonable

@153, Do you think your experience of sex with a condom feels better or worse than what the average woman gets as far as pleasure during sex? (In the real world, the world with condoms and with guys who don't appreciate vibrators and are done after 5 minutes of oral; not some imaginary world where the average woman has fantastic multiorgasmic sex)...

"no one wants to listen to the 837 reasons you'd rather just skip it."

This.

@152 "you're making an assumption...that either directly or indirectly the man is to blame"

Me @147: "Most of the time, both partners are probably somewhat to blame for getting to that point."

I didn't say he's to blame. I said that unless she herself is having an affair, she doesn't trust him. Whatever the reason for that lack of trust, it didn't start when she asked to use a condom.

@ 41 - is there any way to get Persona in the US other than just sneakily ordering from Britain? Looks like a fantastic alternative for those who would just like to know when are condom days and when aren't (I'd ditch hormonal BC in an instant if condoms were just a 'sometimes' alternative !!)

@166, have you ever tried charting your fertility? Checking morning temp + getting to know the consistency of your cervical fluids works well for many women. I did it to get pregnant, but many women use it to prevent pregnancy too.

@165: EricaP, you are saying, in essence, "it might be his fault, it might be hers, but she no longer trusts him, hence the demand for a condom". And in that you may be correct.

I'm saying limiting it to "trust" is, well, too limited. It might simply because he doesn't love him any more and doesn't want him naked inside her. Or are you taking the position that such things never happen? You're entitled to, of course, but it'd be akin telling me that orangutans don't exist: you aren't going to convince me because I've seen a few.

@151: I agree with you that it was exceedingly tone-deaf of him to bring up another girl right in the post-coital afterglow. Not sure I would call it "unfair," at least not in the context of an avowed fuck-buddy situation. Clueless, insensitive, awkward, yes. Unfair, not so much. If the idea that he might be banging someone else is enough to make you say, "If I'd known that, I never would have had sex this last time" -- let alone doing it angrily by not letting him even finish his explanation, and throwing him out of the house -- you have no business calling what you are doing "casual."

If it had been a conventional relationship, then yes, I would have called it unfair. The problem seems to be that Letter Writer's heart converted the situation from "casual" to "actual," and the boy was the last to find out.

Wow: I didn't realize what a nerve I'd hit when I used the word "issues."
I noted that several people seemed almost personally angry with LITL; now some of them seem angry at me for saying that I think the guy in her letter should have told her he had met someone else BEFORE having sex with her so as to let her decide whether she wanted to continue having sex with him.

Hey, Snowguy, I don't think there is a right or wrong here, so I'm not trying to establish my rightness. I wasn't trying to attack you, and don't quite understand the hostility in your addresses to me.

I apologize for having inadvertently hit upon such a loaded word, but I think you're misreading both the original letter and my comments on it.

@170, In your post @153 you tried to play on women's sympathy. Since your response to my post @164 is to be unsympathetic about women's mediocre sexual experience, perhaps you can see why I don't feel guilty about prioritizing my health and my husband's health over a casual partner's sexual pleasure. Or perhaps you can't. In any case, I don't feel guilty about insisting on condoms. Men are welcome to walk away if they don't think they'll enjoy it that way.

They are always welcome over on our team (oh, and do they ever stray!)...

cockyballsup, I deeply, deeply resent that implication that I'm straying into fag land.

Now give me back goddamned pants and underwear so I can storm out of here in proper high dudgeon.

Wow: I didn't realize what a nerve I'd hit when I used the word "issues."

Because it's so often language designed to dismiss an argument without addressing it. It's code language, essentially meaning "you disagree with me not because I may be wrong, but because there's something wrong with you".

@168 "It might simply because [s]he doesn't love him any more and doesn't want him naked inside her."

I'll open this up to the peanut gallery: any women ever feel this way? Long-term partner, you trusted him completely, not having an affair yourself, no problems with birth control... You just felt like starting condoms again because you didn't want him naked inside you.

If two women post to say they went through those feelings at the end of a relationship, I'll concede the point, seeker.

Sorry to read your letter, TOP. I guess you're living with an insensitive POS who does not value you and/or himself. That's supposed to be a shared responsibility but his putting it all on your plate. He should freeze some of his sperm and go have a vasectomy.

Are Kinkster and Normster actual dating/hookup websites? I looked for them without avail. Seems useful when you have a particular itch to scratch (mine being strip poker scenarios) and are looking for just the right person/people to scratch it.

144- Straight Old-- If I'm reading you correctly, you're saying that you do feel intimacy when having condomless sex with a woman who is bearing the full brunt of the responsibility for not getting pregnant and who is experiencing weight gain, moodiness, loss of libido, and periods that last 2 weeks, but you don't feel intimacy when having sex with a happy, healthy woman while wearing a condom. Is that it? And I'm supposed to feel empathy for you?

While we're at it, will you feel some empathy for me? I used to be able to eat whatever I liked without ever feeling bad, getting acid indigestion, or gaining weight. Now I have to make sure I get 3 small balanced meals each day or risk bad health. Also, I used to make more money, and I was way prettier when I was younger. Have a heart. Start feeling sorry for me.

@177: EricaP asked this: "I'll open this up to the peanut gallery: any women ever feel this way? Long-term partner, you trusted him completely, not having an affair yourself, no problems with birth control... You just felt like starting condoms again because you didn't want him naked inside you."

Ill weigh in as just one womnan.

Nope. Here's when I wanted my long-term partner, whom I trusted and on whom I wasn't cheating to switch to condoms: When I was tired of using hormonal birth control, and didn't want either of us to be sterilized (yet), because I thought we might want to have another child down the road.

When I was tired of having all the responsibility of contraception rest on my shoulders, and wanted my husband to share the burden.

When I didn't want an invasive birth control device that had to be implanted or was occasionally linked to PID, infertility, or longer, crampier, heavier periods (at the time, the only IUDs were the coil and the 7, not Mirena), or removed in a doctor's office.

When I was tired of having to insert a diaphram, fumbling in the bathroom with gel or foam, right as things were heating up.

When I was tired of being frustrated at trying to get fitted for a cervical cap, obtaining a cervical cap, and worrying that I hadn't inserted the cervical cap correctly.

When I wanted contraception that was available easily and affordably, with minimal difficulty to use, when I didn't want to wonder any more if my long-term contraception method would contribute to my earlier-than-necessary death by stroke or cancer, when I wanted us to use a birth control method that was easily reversible if we decided to try for another child, and when I thought it would be fair to ask my husband, a supposedly equal partner in our marriage to assume some of the responsibility for contraception, that was when I wanted the switch to condoms.

It had nothing to do with emotional intimacy, with trust, with having him naked inside me (from a woman's perspective, it doesn't feel all that different, and the primary difference in vaginal intercourse, unless you're into semen-play, is the lack of wet spot in which to try and fall asleep). It was no red flag.

Fortunately for me, my husband didn't interpret it any way other than it was meant.

Just one woman's point of view.

I forgot to add that that marriage ended, so it fits the criteria for EricaP's and seeker6079's discussion. But my wanting to switch to condoms, which we did for 4+ years between the birth of our first and second child, before my ex-husband got a vasectomy after our second child, was no red flag about a pulling away from the marriage on my part.

@ Crinoline.

I think I love you for that post.

@Erica

re: condoms

I've never been in that situation but I will say that I've had casual sex with guys who I really strongly disliked (with a condom) and would NEVER have condom-free sex with a guy I didn't like (even if magic fairies could protect me from STIs). Sex without a condom doesn't feel 'better' to me but it does feel more 'intimate'.

I also don't see sex as the be-all and end-all of intimacy at ALL though and have never understood why people associate them so closely. (Another reason why I'm not sympathetic to 'wahh I don't want to wear a condom' bull) I am very emotionally intimate with people who I've never had sex with (friends, etc) and had sex with people who I was not only not-intimate with but actually quite disliked.

Obviously I'm not a normal person though so...

Ms Cute - I think you could be right about him, but the problem is that we'll never know because he never got to finish his sentence.

By the same token, and you may have said something like this somewhere along the way, but I call the last boink more or less a wash in terms of fault, as, couldn't one make the case that, assuming he entered the bedroom knowing that they were already broken up, isn't it much the same that she entered the bedroom knowing they were upgraded?

As for the sympathy to one party or the other, I've been listening to Prunella Scales' reading of Emma in the car and have been nearing the end, about which it struck me how clever the writing was because a lot of Emma's least palatable ideas about Harriet come towards the end, just as much once Emma is secured of Mr Knightley as when she Fears the Worst. The people who are down on her make me think of those who think it would have served Emma right if Mr Knightley had been captivated by Harriet after all.

Personally, I'd have enjoyed this week's set of letters much more if I could have given a flying fig for any of the letters, writers or supporting cast therein. Bleah.

@180 (Crinoline): Nicely done! Thank you.

@184 (Hunter78): I confess that, all things being equal (that is, assuming I don't have to worry about pregnancy and if both of us have been tested, are clear, and trust each other and we're in a monogamous or monoagamish relationship), I prefer the spontaneity of condoms, and I hate the taste that the residue leaves if oral sex follows PIV. So yes, I prefer not to use condoms. But if it a is more casual relationship then absolutely condoms. And if there was a legitimate reason that indicated condom use and my partner balked . . . well, I'd have to really re-think that relationship.

@185 (Mr. Ven): I do believe that "Emma" is my favorite (with "Persuasion" as close runner-up, and "Northanger Abbey" getting honorable mention).
I kind of felt for both the people in LITL's letter--it read kind of like a modern-day Shakespearean tragedy.

"it read kind of like a modern-day Shakespearean tragedy."

What, a bunch of peopled died, after some agonizing and heartbreaking misunderstandings, treacheries, and eruptions? Dang, I just thought some guy and gal had a falling out.

I wonder if Savage edited out the iambic pentameter? Bastard.

Dear Snowguy: I'm sorry that you have an irony deficiency.
I was speaking tongue in cheek.

@95, okay, I see how that makes sense. But people are condemning her for very different reasons, and they're being super judgmental.

However, I don't agree that she's an emotional abuser for yelling at him, though I do think it was an immature, gut reaction that should have been considered.

Honestly though there are way too many comments for me to keep up with this thread anymore. Farewell and a'dieu.

@153
"A lot of women here couldn't give a damn for this point of view because--"

Ok, I totally though you were going to say, "because women are the ones who risk getting pregnant." Which would have made sense. Instead:

"--they are not the ones who lose sensation, but the truth is that condomless sex feels so much better to most guys, not just psychologically but also physically. Ladies, how would you feel if you had to put a glove on your clit that inhibited your enjoyment and possibly your ability to orgasm?"

You know what inhibits my enjoyment and possibly my orgasm? Being terrified of getting pregnant or getting an STD while I'm having sex. It sure makes it difficult to be intimate while being paranoid about disastrous consequences AND knowing I'm fucking some dude who doesn't give a shit about me and my health. You know what else inhibits my sexual enjoyment? The ensuing STI, pregnancy, childbirth and 20 years of intensive parenting.

"Most monogamous gay guys I know, including myself, get tested a couple of times over a 6 month period and then don't use condoms any more." Yeah Einstein, you can't get pregnant.

That goes for you too, Old Dude. Sheesh.

@seeker, EricaP re: condoms and divorce

Actually my first thought was that as the man becomes less appealing to the woman, for whatever reason, she wants to make damn sure she doesn't get pregnant with his child. Especially if a divorce is a possibility.

I'm married and use condoms and have no intention of divorcing my husband.

@193: (KittyWrangler): Exactly what I would have said had I not already been following up one thread. Thank you.

Jinx!

Once again a column that started in such a wonderful way- after all what can be more romantic, intimate, and sexy than a woman asking her man to dress up in lingerie for her- is being hijacked by endless advice on contraception and extremely enlightening arguments as to which gender should use them in the first place (hint: its always the opposite camp!).

So here I am, wondering if I’ll ever meet a woman who will want me to wear “a teddy, fishnets, and some heels” for her. Yes, I have them all, and actually I do wear a lovely satin teddy right now. It’s a Farr West cream color satin one with black lace trimming, here’s the link:
http://www.farrwest.com/Vintage-Bloom-Ro…

Since I played soccer earlier this evening (like a man, you should have seen me) my legs hurt and I’ll better forgo the “some heels” for now. But rest assured, I got plenty hot shoes as well as thigh high fishnets and some garter belts to make sure they stay on in all kinds of action. They are all in great condition and are eagerly awaiting you…

In the meantime I’ll better go to bed, promise to dream about you, and hope that some time before I turn 80 we’ll actually meet… just to wake up to the terrible noise of yet another argument as to which gender should use the contraception thingy… and a good night to you too my love…

I have to wonder, as seeker6069 was making his/her observations about divorcing couples, was he/she asking the same questions of an equal number of happily married couples?

I swear to god, I looked up from my reading to see this one on screen, peered over my reading glasses, took the pipe out of my mouth and said aloud, “you do realize how few married couples amble on into lawyers’ offices looking for a divorce?”

@195 "she wants to make damn sure she doesn't get pregnant with his child." Excellent point.

@198 you probably know this already, but as Dan often says, the easiest path to happy kinky relationships is not to wait for a woman with your kink, but to fall in love with someone who has serious kinks of her own. Over time, being enthusiastically GGG should lead to both of you getting turned on by the other person's kinks, a win/win.

@144, 153, 164:
I don't think all women are unsympathetic to guys who don't like condoms. I am not. In fact, I like sex without condoms in a LTR.

But, 144, your example does not apply here. Even in the good old times, there were women who did not tolerate the pill. And you completely ignore them in your demand for sympathy.

Cocksy, you get a pass on this because contraception isn't that big a deal in gay sex, I assume.

EricaP, I would have expected better from you: you shouldn't compare the experience of a man using a condom to the general enjoyment of sex for a woman (and a grim picture you paint!) but to the health issues of a woman who doesn't tolerate the pill but takes it nonetheless because her husband whines about having to use a condom.

@Token straight: Don't you think everyday intimacy goes down the drain if the woman has hormone-induced depression, gains 20 pounds in 2 months, has no sex drive? And she feels dreadful 24/7, not only a few minutes several times a week?

Of course, there are other options for birth control. But this couple doesn't seem to be able to discuss them in a rational way because of the attitude of the husband, according to the letter writer. And too many women have encountered too many men who automatically assume that women are on the pill.

I cheated, crawled out of bed, and found Erica P's kind words @200.
Well of course- as I've stated before I'll do anything, ANYTHING, in return.

And this is really my last comment for today, Wednesday, about 11:20 pm in Seattle.

Good night to all you kinksters wherever you are and may your dirtiest dreams, mine included, will all COME true.

Oh, my impatience! I should have read all the comments before posting.

Crinoline, you put it way better @180!

I doubt anyone will read this because I am not registered. However, there are more options than IUDs, condoms, pills, and rhythm method. She should look into a diaphragm or cervical cap. I have used a diaphragm successfully for 2 years with spermicide. You can't even taste the spermicide if you put it on carefully and only on the inside. I got mine at planned parenthood and it is made of silicon.

To tired of pills ( and most women,, really):

Have you looked into getting a diaphragm? I got mine at planned parenthood and have used or for years. It is made of silicon and I use it with some spermicide inside as an extra precaution. (my partner cant taste the spermicode because i put it in neatly.) I can't feel it and there are no hormones to make me crazy and if I ever decide to swear of sex or have kids it is simple for me to get rid of it.

The problem Is that pharmaceutical companies and othe organizations don't make a lot of money off of diaphragms, and they require a base level of intelligence to insert it invade you and make sure it's all snug and in place. So they aren't pushed with advertising and such because buying a $4 tube of spermicide every year or so and replacing the diaphragm for $50 (covered by my particular insurance) just isn't as lucrative as rhe pull or condoms or the shot or the ring or what have you. I also think its a little too "natural" for people sometimes. To each their own, but I just personally can't deal with the pill.

Ugh sorry about the double (now triple) posting. I just really like to get the word out. I like women to know rhar there are a lot of options out there.

@153, I assure you, women also lose sensation when fucking with a condom, in the sense that the sensation becomes that of boinking a balloon animal. However, it would be nice if men could sack up and wear one, and not complain too much to the people who bear the lion's share of the risks, burdens, and inconveniences of sex while generally receiving the lesser part of its pleasures.