@280: How about a vasectomy?

Personally, I've scheduled and then canceled two vasectomy appointments due to anxiety about complications. I have two friends who had the procedure, and both experienced significant and lasting pain afterwards. One of them ultimately had the procedure reversed after 12 months of not being able to have sex or ride a bike.

I realize two friends do not constitute a statistically significant sample, but it's impossible for me to discount their experience.

I'm really scratching my head here. A vasectomy *reversal* is WAY more surgery (we're talking hours, and many stitches) than a plain vasectomy. How on earth would that make anything better with regard to having sex or riding a bike?

@ Michele

Actually, if you go ahead and read the letter you'll see that she had a conversation with her doctor (a medical professional who was trained on the matter of birth control, fyi) about alternative options including the IUD which was explicitly mentioned and ruled out and presumably all other options which were not rehashed in her letter at length (they didn't need to be!) Dan (reasonably) trusted that her doctor's assessment is right.

For every kind of birth control there are exclusion factors. Fertility awareness is labour-intensive and not conducive to every lifestyle. Oh and I'm not exactly keen on having large swaths of time where sex is off limits. That's not anywhere near close to being a good idea in my books.

In other words: who would this method not work for? High libido individuals, people with hectic busy lifestyles who don't have the time to dedicate, and people who are not in monogamous relationships.

I get so tired of this whole "DON'T YOU PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT BC METHOD X? IT'S FLAWLESS AND WONDERFUL AND EVERYONE SHOULD DO IT."

No. I like condoms. They're affordable, they're easy, I don't have ANY problem with loss of pleasure from them and they protect against the vast majority of STIs including HIV. Oh, plus they're fabulous if you're about to run out the door wearing a short skirt and teeny lacy underwear. I also use the pill because having a period every few weeks blows.

But that doesn't mean that they're for everyone. And I'm not going to claim they should be. There is no perfect form of birth control, they all have their pros and cons.

Not to be rude, but you're like the twentieth person to be all "OMG DAN WHAT ABOUT OTHER FORMS".

@319 & @320: Oh, yeah-----that's right. My troll sensor button was turned off! Otherwise, I, too, would have known to ignore Hunter's prize collection of glaring red flags. Thank you both for bringing this to my attention.

Meanwhile, back to the martoonis and German chocolate cake!!!!

@nocutename, if you're still reading...

"Have you never gradually felt yourself developing feelings when you didn't intend to?"

Gay man here. This has been my story for most any sex partner I've fallen for. I've been through it enough to learn not to call anything "casual" if there's the possibility I might fall for the guy, and to be honest enough about my own emotions to admit I've got to really get to know a guy before I can exclude the possibility I'm gonna fall for him.

Because when you call things "casual" there is really little room to expect heightened emotional sensitivity from whoever you're being "casual" with. It's rather disclaimer against all the normal emotional expectations of sexual relationships.

If I expect him to share his feelings with me, particularly his feelings *about* me, with any less reservation than I might expect from any other "casual" friend, then what I'm looking for ain't "casual." And it's kind of on me to admit that up front, if I don't want to always be angry at the eventual emotional insensitivity of my "casual" sex partners.

"Casual" also seems to me to imply that *every* time might be the last time. If I'm only entering into the sex act based on the presumption that it won't be the last time, then it's on me to make that clear. Because a "casual" relationship--sexual or nonsexual--doesn't generally involve the other person being there for you when you want/need them (at least absent any explicit promise.) That's kind of a big part of what makes it "casual."

So personally, these days, I'm really trying to stop having "casual" sex. That is to say, I've learned that I can't help but have unpredictable emotions on the line. I can't work on the premise that I ain't gonna fall for a guy, any moreso than I can work on the premise that I'll still like him once I get to know him. New relationships are all possibility, and the only way to know which way they'll go is to get to know the other person over time. If I'm not making that clear, then I'm lying to the other guy--and myself.

seandr @323, thanks, that's very helpful; I also appreciated hearing about your friends' experience with vasectomies. Like you we have heard some horror stories about pain and other complications.

mydriasis@326, fertility awareness is not hard work; taking your temp takes about a minute a day and checking your cervical fluid takes about 2 seconds. You do have to take your temp at the same time every day, like bc pills.

If you have no religious issue with condoms, then you just use condoms during the fertile period. In a stable relationship it provides a good way to share the annoyance of birth control. Also, many women appreciate seeing understanding their fertility.

Given that Dan made a Letter of the Day out of the BC advice, my assumption is that he thought it was a good addition to the discussion.

@268 - I've been away and not keeping up with this rather long thread: yes, in fact, it would make a big difference...it would help a lot. It would make it a lot more comfortable saying, "you know, I'm really into you and all, but I just can't come this way! Can I take it off and get a hand-job to finish?" I think we've had this discussion here before, but a lot of women find a thirty minute session just something that makes them sore, not hornier.

As I said: I'm very lucky to have a committed partner who hates them just as much, and she is fine with hormonal BC, we've been monogamous for a long time and are both STI free.

In my 'casual' phases, I've always worn them myself - taking responsibility for my own health, not just my partner's. I'm pretty sure there was a time many decades ago when my super-horny and always charged teenage male self would have been just fine, but then that self wasn't getting laid all the time by random women either. C'est la vie - timing is everything!

@ Erica

"mydriasis@326, fertility awareness is not hard work; taking your temp takes about a minute a day and checking your cervical fluid takes about 2 seconds. You do have to take your temp at the same time every day, like bc pills."

That's after you've put in the original effort of the learning curve (becoming familiar with identifying your own mucous and body temp changes). Besides, some people do find taking a pill every day to be a hassle or something that can be easily forgotten (I've forgotten a number of pills in my day). A quick glance at wikipedia says...

Some symptoms-based methods require tracking of basal body temperatures. Because irregular sleep can interfere with the accuracy of basal body temperatures, shift workers and those with very young children, for example, might not be able to use those methods.

FA requires action daily, detailed record keeping. Some may find the time and detail requirements too complicated.

My point wasn't that FA is bad or stupid - my point was that it isn't a good idea for me. I can pop a pill on the bus no problem, I can't do that with cervical mucous. For some people even remembering to take the pill daily can be difficult, hormonal birth control also offers the ring or the shot which is lower maintenance.

I think that FA is a great idea for the people who are able to do it! But I'm sick of the whole "my BC method is perfect therefore everyone should do it" attitude.

"If you have no religious issue with condoms, then you just use condoms during the fertile period. In a stable relationship it provides a good way to share the annoyance of birth control. Also, many women appreciate seeing understanding their fertility."

I'm aware that this is how it's usually done in practice... but that takes us back to the original point. You're not using "fertility awareness" as your birth control. You're using "fertility awareness AND condoms" as your birth control. (Or some other method).

* Also, I choose when to take my birth control pill, temperature must be taken immediately after waking up, which to me would feel restrictive.

@Eirene: I'm no testicologist, but if memory serves, the pain is caused by the body's reaction to the semen that ends up spilling into the scrotal sack. That's why reversing the procedure stops the pain.

And what if the reversal failed? You'd spend the rest of your life feeling like someone just kicked you in the nuts. Not too good of a deal.

The last thing I want is a 3rd kid, so I'd love to be shooting blanks. We also use timing and body awareness for the occasional unprotected romp, and that definitely helps. If I was facing the prospect of never feeling a natural warm wet wonderful pussy all over my cock ever again, I'd probably say "fuck it" and roll the dice on a vasectomy.

@332, I certainly would never tell you what method to use for anything. I also would never say that fertility awareness methods are for everyone. Me, I love my bc pills, so I only used FAM to get pregnant. But men-who-hate-condoms in stable relationships with women-who-can't-take-hormones should encourage their partners to give FAM a try. It's not hard and it doesn't take much time.

"I can pop a pill on the bus no problem, I can't do that with cervical mucous."

Mydriasis, most people have two seconds when they are in the bathroom.

@335

"I certainly would never tell you what method to use for anything. I also would never say that fertility awareness methods are for everyone"

You wouldn't, I know. :)

My response was to numerous posters complaining that Dan didn't take this opportunity to go on a lengthy discussion of every alternate form of birth control while subtly implying that anyone who uses more popular methods of birth control just doesn't know any better.

"Mydriasis, most people have two seconds when they are in the bathroom."

Yup, but that's exactly my point. You have to get to the bathroom. I can pop a pill anywhere, testing cervical mucuos requires privacy. Again, it's a lifestyle thing. For me personally I typically have a lot of balls in the air and I can be a little forgetful. "Oh shit, I forgot to take my pill *eats pill*" is one thing, "Oh shit, I forgot to check my mucous, better find some time to run to a washroom soon before I forget again.". That might seem like a trivial difference for you but for me it isn't, and I'm not alone.

@seandr: I would definitely avoid the urologists your friends had, that's for sure. Go for someone with lots of experience and get references. Keep in mind that you're more likely to hear the horror stories than the good experiences. In the US around 12% of couples of reproductive age are relying on vasectomies for birth control, and there must be lots more men in the population who've had vasectomies but whose wives are past childbearing. If it's even twice as many in total, well, that's about a quarter of the men in the US.

In Denmark, the Netherlands, New Zealand, and Great Britain, more men are sterilized than women.

@331 "It would make it a lot more comfortable saying, 'you know, I'm really into you and all, but I just can't come this way!'"

Good point! And, that, in turn, opens the door for more talk about particular preferences and possible workarounds. All to the good.

337, 338-- I googled on "What percentage of men in the U.S. have had vasectomies" and got the following statistics from different web pages:

More than 15% of men over age 40.
1 out of 5 men over age 35.
5% of married couples of reproductive age .
1 out of 6 men over age 35.

So there's a good deal of disagreement.
I was interested in the article on what a hard sell it is.

@337: Alright, I'll get snipped. Wish them luck.

seandr: This is a side effect I have not seen confirmed, but for my ex-husband and two of my friends' husbands who had vasectomies, they found that their staying power during sex increased. Having the vasectomy improved our marital sex life enormously. My ex froze some sperm just in case he should ever want to have another child down the road, and it was such a relief to not have to worry about contraception methods and their various drawbacks, or to worry about accidental pregnancy. He felt fine after a two-day recovery.

If you decide to go for it, I hope you have a positive experience.

Ack, that was a stupid math error. I was forgetting the denominator would change as well. Duh. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22133…

Abstract
BACKGROUND:

Vasectomy has been found to be a highly cost-effective contraceptive method. For couples, tubal sterilization and vasectomy have the same result, but the two methods are used by different segments of the population.
STUDY DESIGN:

We conducted an analysis of data from male and female samples of the 2006-2008 National Survey of Family Growth, nationally representative samples of men and women in the United States aged 15-44 years.
RESULTS:

Among married men, 13.1% reported vasectomies (95% confidence interval 10.4%-16.3%), compared to 21.1% (17.8%-24.9%) of married women who reported tubal sterilizations. Men with higher education and income had greater prevalence of vasectomy than those less educated, while women with lower education and income had the highest prevalence of tubal sterilization.

@mydriasis and EricaP - regarding fertility awareness

Laying aside time needed each morning for the temperature test and the mucous test - there are some people, like me, for whom it just doesn't work.

I have highly irregular cycles, of often more than 35 days. I've tried the temperature curve for months : according to it, I never do ovulate during the cycle, or I ovulate several times. I have had cycles with very drastic mucous changes, some with none. Once I became pregnant on a day that, according to FA measurements, was only two-three days away from the period. Go figure.

Despite all that, I'm fertile enough, since I still managed to have 3 kids.

So, since hormonal birth control wreaks havoc with my already naturally compromised hormonal balance (no periods for more than one year after stopping it), and FA doesn't apply... condoms work best for me.

@339: Yawn. Go back to your cave, troll boy. You're even more ridiculous when you bother to post.

Moving right along.....

EricaP, mydriasis, sissoucat, et. al. back to you.

@mydriasis: We're brainstorming what could work for TOP. You're happy with condoms and the pill. Great! She isn't.

A big issue in medicine (and life) is misinformation and lack of information. Getting a second opinion from another doctor or relevant professional is often a wise thing to do. That's what TOP was doing. I would like to see her be able to make an informed decision based on accurate information about her options. There's a good chance she didn't get that from her doctor and she didn't get that from Dan.

Not a big surprise. Because Fertility Awareness Methods are essentially Do-It-Yourself, they have limited profit-making potential. Thus, development and promotional dollars are scarce. Efficacy studies, awareness-building campaigns, and educational materials all cost money. So there's a huge lack of awareness about FAM methods. Dan could do a lot to get the word out about this often overlooked option. That's what I was urging him to do. And, yes, as @auntie grizelda points out, it's not for everyone, but it's worth exploring as an option. After all, @Seandr's personal solution @334 might work for TOP and her husband. Using fertility tracking, they can have the "natural warm wet wonderful pussy" Seandr describes the majority of the month. Then, they can choose to use condoms or do other sexual variations the minority of the month. In TOP's situation, that strikes me as a better solution than using condoms all the time, which is basically where Dan had left her.

Of course, if TOP's charts turn out to look like sissoucat's -- "according to it, I never do ovulate during the cycle, or I ovulate several times" (@345) -- then FAM won't be a solution for her. But it's worth a try for a few months to see if one's charts make sense. For many women, the charts do make sense, and it's empowering to learn so much about your body.

@ Michele

You're assuming (without knowing) that her doctor didn't take it into consideration. Dan made the opposite assumption (so did I) and actually answered the question at hand.

FA is extremely effective when practice correctly. End of story, what other studies do you need? It's not quite as good (at preventing pregnancy) as the pill but it is one of the top most effective methods (I read that inside my pill insert, btw).

The suggestion that doctors won't suggest (or aren't aware of) non-pharma options is absurd. Go into the doctor's office with celiac and see if he or she tries to sell you a pill.

@ Erica

Maybe. But maybe she already knows what her periods are like and so does her doctor. Maybe she's already read about it and knows it doesn't suit her for some other reason. I don't understand why everyone's assuming she just doesn't know any better.

@328 (JackDitch):
Thanks for the thoughtful contribution. For my own part, I have finally learned that I am not really so good at being casual. If the sex is good, I want to repeat it a lot. If I have repeated good or great sex, and I'm enjoying the person's company, I tend to fall for that person. If the sex isn't all that good, I don't see the need to repeat it. And yet I have repeatedly thrown myself into "casual" sexual relationships, only to discover that I wasn't able to be casual. I'm trying a new way of being, myself, which is to not have sex as casually with men with whom I know there's no possibility of a real relationship, in case I fall for the guy, with the result that I haven't gotten laid in a long time!

I think that someone else on this thread brought up the fact that the lw might have been lying, not so much to the guy she was seeing, as to herself, telling both him and herself she wanted a casual relationship, when in fact she didn't. I think that people lie to themselves a lot, and that there is a lot of pressure on women in particular to adopt an attitude of casualness which they might not really possess, lest they be perceived or perceive themselves as old-fashioned, unenlightened, not-sex-positive, uptight throwbacks. Our culture is full of hip, sex-for-pure-recreation models for young women--just look at any Judd Apatow-esque heroine. I think that women who want to believe in themselves as smart and modern may feel subtle cultural pressure to behave as men have historically behaved. I realize I'm going to bring the wrath of Sloggers down upon me, that a lot of people will tell me that I'm wrong, or that they are able to separate sex from affection with no problem, or that I'm a bitch of some kind, and all the usual disclaimers therefore apply.

I think this letter writer and her boy are probably young, and a lot of the problems in her letter stem from poor communication skills all around. But neither of them seem malicious.

What's been troubling me is the attitude many on this comment thread, who see the lw as being a vicious, man-eating bitch who got what she deserved and then tried to change the rules that she had established. I'd like to see a little more compassion in these comments, but for some reason, that didn't happen here.

353-nocute-- Let me elaborate on what I meant when I said that I thought LITL was lying to herself about being casual. I think you're saying much the same thing.

35 years ago when I was still in my teens, I fell hard for the first man (a boy himself) I had sex with. When he ditched me (normal enough for a first relationship and one that burned so bright and burned out so quickly), I fell hard, picked myself up, and dusted myself off as well as I could given the resources I had. There were a lot of things I was doing wrong in the way I was managing my life. One that I could identify was falling in love so completely that I lost myself in the process. I needed to figure out how to separate myself from all the white picket fence feelings that came with sex.

Which isn't to say that sex should be separate from love. It's only to say that love shouldn't be akin to drowning. I completely know what it is to develop feelings for someone I'm having good sex with. That's where I'm coming from when I suggested that LITL might have been lying to herself. It's also where I was coming from when I rewrote the scenario to suggest that she didn't realize she'd fallen for him until after she jumped to the conclusion that she was being dumped.

It's just that I've been there. I know what it is to need to experiment both with sex to find out what works for me and with the emotions that accompany sex-- to find out what works for me.

That said, I'm not the stereotype who enters into a friends with benefits relationship and immediately walks around miserable because it hasn't turned into something more. I had a fwb relationship for 8 years, a relationship that ended when first one, then the other, found a more permanent (and conventional) relationship to replace it. My husband and I attended his wedding. I still think of him as a valued friend.

I tell you this to let you know it's possible. It sounds like you're thinking clearly.

do most of the women here not experience a significant difference in the feeling of PIV sex with vs. without a condom? for me it is mind-bogglingly different, and if I could do away with them forever I would. I've only done this with one boyfriend and with my husband, so not much of a sample size, and each felt very different from the other, but in both cases the sex was magnitudes better for me without the condoms. it's mostly the physical sensation - just this indescribable frisson when his cock touches me. but it also made me feel like I knew each of their bodies, and thus each of them, that much better.

@354 (Crinoline):
I think girls today have a particular set of expectations to follow, that say they should be hot and available with no emotional strings attached, whereas when I was growing up, the idea of a woman having or wanting a FWB was unheard of.

I'm 49, and a lot of my sexual persona was formed, I believe, in rebellion against what I saw as my mother's old-fashioned, non-feminist attitudes, including one that suggested sex was special and should be saved, if not for marriage, then for someone you really, truly loved, who really, truly loved you.

I wanted to be wilder than my mother, more advanced. I very deliberately and self-consciously defined myself--and it was important to me to be defined by others--as the girl who has sex with no strings. Promiscuity went hand in hand with liberation, and being open-minded.

I have had FWBs, and a long-term marriage, as well as lots of one-night stands, boyfriends, essentially any variation of heterosexual binary entanglement one can imagine. I was meditating on JackDitch's realization, and adding that I didn't want to admit to myself, let alone others, that in some ways, I am more traditional than I would once would have thought. At this point in my life, I no longer want to have sex with someone I'm not dating.

I think my self-definition is somewhat different in origin, from that of a woman in her young 20s, who isn't so much rebelling against a social/cultural convention, but is trying to conform to a different one.

I have daughters, 18 and 13, and I want them to be empowered, to be sex-positive for its own sake, because sex gives them pleasure, not because they are trying to define themselves by or against cultural expectations. If they are happy and content and fulfilled in FWB or even more casual sexual relationships, great (issues of disease- and pregnancy-prevention notwithstanding); if they want their partnered sex life to take place in the context of more traditional relationships, that is great, too. I want them not to be influenced by those outside forces, but I think that is very difficult, and requires a great deal of maturity and comfort with one's own choices.

Hey LWAM,

Dan is correct. Though I have never done this, I have fantasized quite a bit about dressing in lingerie and panties - but like you, I haven't had any luck finding a partner who would find this innocent behavior fun.

Drop me a line!

Chris

@ nocute

"I want them not to be influenced by those outside forces, but I think that is very difficult, and requires a great deal of maturity and comfort with one's own choices."

Indeed.

Speaking from experience, following your own set of values and ethics can cause a lot of conflict if it's different than your friend group in highschool. Looking back I'm beyond thankful that I did, but it can be incredibly isolating and if I have a daughter one day I hope she's lucky enough to not face that kind of conflict.

Because honestly, there's no good answer. I recently talked to a girl who was in the same group in highschool. Unlike me, she stayed friends with them. A couple years ago she was date raped by someone partly in the group. Everyone sort of closed ranks and gave the bullshit "oh well, it's complicated, he's not a bad guy, there was lots of alcohol, etc" speech. None of them were supportive or there for her. I was appalled, obviously. She said to me that she wished she had the guts to do what I did and just followed her own feelings. But of course, things were crappy for me back then too, being constantly put down and slut shamed is a crappy thing when you're a teenager. So is being mocked for being prudish, etc.

Anyway, I don't mean that to be depressing! I'm very grateful to my younger self for not letting anyone bully me into being someone I'm not. I wish your daughters the best of luck.

Nocute-- I hadn't realized we're so close to the same age.

I understand not wanting your daughters to be unduly influenced for the reasons you state, but whatever we want, it's plain impossible. It's like saying you want your children to grow up speaking whatever language they want without being influenced by hearing adults communicate. If you're going to have partnered sex, you're going to be influenced by your partners' attitudes towards sex. Those attitudes will be formed by one's exposure to the society at large. There's no avoiding it.

Luckily, the society at large isn't one monolithic thing. It's varied, so one can, to an extent, pick and choose one's influences.

@356 & @359: I didn't realize that I'm close to your ages, too!
I just turned 48 on Monday (July 30).

No wonder I enjoy your posts so much!! Although I don't have any kids, I still feel like I can relate.

To TOP,

We're socialized, as women and as non-doctors, to do exactly as our doctor tells us. But here's the thing: your doctor can't tell just by looking at your lady-parts whether or not the mirena or anything else will be a good fit for you. I would advise you to do as much research as you can on your own and to discuss it again with your doctor when you've got a fair amount of information to back you up.

If your doctor can't give you a REALLY compelling reason not to use the birth control YOU want to use (and by compelling, I mean a big health risk), then it's time to find a new doctor who cares about how you feel and what you have to say.

In the meantime, Dan's right. Your man wants to have P in the V sex? He needs to man up and share some responsibility unless he wants to share in a much larger set of responsibilities by getting you pregnant.

I want to echo what others have already commented. I think shared responsibility should consider getting another opinion about what birth control would work for her. It is unfortunate but even in this day and age, doctors can have a conservative view of birth control and what is "appropriate". I would suggest finding a planned parenthood if there is one close by, as they tend to have very progressive views on birth control. With that said, there may be medical factors that make an IUD an unwise solution. But with that said, her husband should get over it. He is lucky enough to be married to a woman who has gone through the trouble and annoyance of finding oral birth control which works then he is lucky enough! He needs to accept the responsibility that comes with sex and its either wear a condom or the nursery ready for a baby

Ok well I'm sure no one is still reading after 363 comments and I myself started scrolling at a certain point but I wanted to say to the girl with the cross-dressing fantasy, come join fetlife and chat about cross-dressing with other girls who like it. I love my pseudo-lesbian girlfriend (xd boy) and love seeing men in skirts and thigh-highs and bras. It's the most underrated sexual experience out there! Do it, my friend. Good luck.

TOP:

Your doctor doesn't think that other methods would be a good fit for you? Don't answer me, but probe deeper with your doctor--why not? In the USA, doctors tend to get off on promoting the pill (drug company kickbacks?), but in civilised countries other methods are vastly more popular, and with good reason. Ask a second or third opinion, and find out whether an IUD (for example) would work.

Besides the fact that condoms feel horrible for the guy, they're also not very reliable. You can do better with Fertility Awareness (a more data-intensive version of the good ol' Rhythm Method).

How about a vasectomy? There aren't many reversible options for guys, but there are some. Look them up and figure out what you'd be comfortable with. A combined approach (say, Fertility Awareness in addition to testicular heating) might put you well into the >99%-reliability zone.

I'm surprised more people haven't suggested the fellow get snipped. If he cares that much about condoms, then freeze some sperm and man up.