Columns May 15, 2013 at 4:00 am



Show your son - get him nice and ethically kinky from the get go. Women are degraded.. men are degraded... everyone gets an interview afterward.
Oh please, BBTB. Playboy is many things, but it's not porn. Sheesh!
@2: Well, that may be the case *now*, but I'm pretty sure that it still carries a wee disclaimer on the front that says 'Not for sale to minors'. I don't know what the law is like in your country, but in mine giving kids porn (or in some cases, access to porn) is a jailable offense.

@Dan: "And you're going to spank me right now, with my consent, and it's going to be hot."

I think I met a girl once who might have been able to be almost that direct. Once.

Mind you, if we as a culture could actually start talking frankly and unashamedly about sex and the things we want out of sex, then a lot of the incidents where he thought she consented but she didn't, wouldn't happen. So encouraging this kind of thing is a good thing, I suppose, even if not very realistic at the moment.
BBTB: If you don't buy him the Playboy, he will definitely find a way to access internet porn. If you do, there is a small chance he might not. Either way, when he goes off to live in a college dorm, the blistering internet speeds will give him a porn bonanza, limited only by the number of hours his roommate is absent.
@4 - Yeah, but there's a big difference between an 18-year-old and a 13-year-old. By that point, he'll also have easy access to alcohol, pot, and all manner of other things. That doesn't mean that parents of 13-year-olds should throw up their hands and say, "He'll have that eventually anyway!" and go out and buy their kid a handle of vodka and some weed. Instead, they should spend the time while they still have their kid around instilling ideas about how to make thoughtful choices about all these things.
@BBTB - I think she should explain the situation to a trusted adult male family member.

@SKIRT - she should give her cousin a phone-sex number to call, and figure out a way to pay the charges.
When I was a young lad in the pre-web world my parents were open minded enough to buy PlayBoy magazines for me. I think this was for a few reasons:
1. They knew I already had an ingrained level of respect for women and seeing naked ones wasn't going to turn me into someone who objectifies women, only images of them in men's magazines.
2. PlayBoy is pretty mild stuff. And while you might object to naked ladies of objectifying the articles and news contained in PlayBoy are all very pro-women, pro-choice.
3. If they didn't get it for me they knew I'd find something else (possibly something less tasteful) on my own.

Bottom line, if your son has been taught to respect women (and he should have learned this lesson before he hit 13) then a magazine like PlayBoy won't damage him. But if he hasn't learned that by now no amount of porn filtering is going to help him. The little dude has seen porn and will see more porn, he's just giving you the chance to go along with something mild. Take the opportunity.
I'm just saying that 13 is a pretty normal age for a kid to be starting to show an interest in porn and naked women, and that Playboy is about the most innocuous thing she could hope for. Her "all naked women = porn = horrific exploitation" line of reasoning is almost certain to be counterproductive.
"You mean the one that flashed her tits last week is gonna make out with the girl who was telling everyone she wasn't wearing any underwear?" Dorman asked while setting out newly washed glasses. "Whatever."

But seriously, it's so cute that you're upset about all those mean lesbians who find you annoying.
BBTB needs to get out of her son's porn habit. Seizing the smartphone was dumb. The correct thing to do would be to pretend she didn't know as I assume my parents did when I was that age. He's going to find a way to look at porn and it is really so much better if you are not involved.
Haven't people got anything better to worry about than drunk chicks acting out Katy Perry videos? Sheesh, talk about harmless.
Dear Drunk Straight Girl:

Be careful who you make out with. You might hit on a bisexual or lesbian woman who does not want to make out with you just to get the attention of some man. At best, much awkwardness will result.
Really the only problem I have ever seen with DSGs making out with other DSGs is that it can sometimes teach DSBs that lesbians are one cup of coffee away from riding the nearest dick.

Mind you, they'd have to be the dumbest DSBs alive, but every time I think there can't possibly someone dumb enough to think X I find an entire corner of the internet full of them...
If BBTB really wants to do women a favor, instead of keeping her son from objectifying them through porn, how about some women-friendly porn with actual foreplay?

And a copy of Dan's advice to teens, re: work at getting your 20 year old self laid.
I suspect DSG is actually a sober straight guy.

I was totally a DSG!

And then, you know... I turned fifteen.
Used to work at a video store and a mom and son would come in and mom would rent porn for him. It was adorable. I envied their relationship. She stuck to fairly unagressive porn - Playboy titles and I think maybe Girls Gone Wild, both of which have their own issues but compared to the alternatives that were available even just at the store...
BBTB would have been a good time to remind mom about April's study that showed porn DOES NO HARM. Journal of Sexual Medicine. There's also been a ton of stuff over the years that shows it doesn't lead to violence against women and that those concerns are so 1980s, that women-appearing-in-porn are not damaged goods, blah blah science blah.

But BBTB is American and Americans don't care about science... OMG! My kid might be looking at nekkid people! Let me give him a dumb phone and make him the laughing stock of the whole school....
"how about some women-friendly porn with actual foreplay"

Ugggh, can we get over the stereotype that all women like foreplay? Please?
I love you-you have been my IDOL for 100 years! I am a straight girl (with everything else mixed in). I have never before responded (because you have always been "dead-ass" in your responses, in my opinion.) I want to qualify this by saying I emulate you, and everything you have pushed for...but, WTF is up with you lately? I KNOW you-and you haven't been yourself in your responses. If you need time off-TAKE IT! If you need an intern-find the powers that be, and THROW DOWN! AMERICA NEEDS YOU (DESPERATELY!)Please don't become disenfranchised in the last inning, Dan! I have been a loyal reader of yours (since I was 17-not going to tell you how old I am now (mad old!!) We NEED you! Please reconsider, regroup, and come back fighting!
There are few American icons I quote, regularly.
Dan Savage will always be one. Stand up, or lay down-Dan. (I will say the same shit to the people rallying against Monsanto, next week...I KNOW you feel me).
with nothing but love,
@13 - DSBs? How about half of straight guys anywhere ever?

DSG-type behavior contributes to the widespread feeling among straight men that real lesbian/bi women are only doing it for their arousal, and that "you just haven't been with the right man". Ugh.
Hey DSG, you know why I hate women like you?

I'll tell you.


I am not your "experiment."

I am not your "feel good drunk plaything."


Don't want it to be "on you"? Then LEARN SOME FUCKING RESPECT.


A lesbian who's been led into actual, buying-you-nice-things, taking-you-to-dinner relationships TWICE by girls who then proceeded to actually be straight and not interested in anything but drunk kissing
@22: I think the DSG who makes out with other DSGs are fine- silly, not without issues, but whatever. DSGs who find actual lesbians/bi girls to make out with for the express purpose of arousing DSBs and no intention of following through are assholes. It's not clear which subset the LW belongs to, but there is a distinction.
I agree with @22 and also one problem I have is with DSGs is that they seem to often identify as Bi, which they are not, and that makes people, both boys and girls, hetero and homo, think that there really is no such thing as a bisexual woman, and also I think DSGs who identify as bi are a big reason many lesbians have a "no bi-girls" policy. Which ruins it for me, an actual bi-girl.
Yeah, DSGs who make out with other DSGs are one of those things that I have nothing against on principle, but kind of piss me off anyway. I'm not saying that means they shouldn't do it - go ahead, whatever - but if I happen to see it, I'll make an irritated face and look away. Which, in the grand scheme of your drunken lolzbian makeouts, doesn't really mean anything, so I feel like it's okay for all involved.

Why? Well, for a number of reasons - objectification of women, rarely have I seen dudes make out to get a woman's attention, etc - but...well. For one thing, it gives a lot of guys some seriously warped ideas of what is and is not an okay reaction to seeing two women kiss at a bar. And for another, there is a certain species of DSG who like to try and drag women they don't necessarily know into their sexy funtimes. And as a woman who a) is not interested in attracting male attention and b) finds it kind of creepy when people she doesn't know tries to drag her into their sexy funtimes without so much as a by-your-leave, that...grates.
I used to get annoyed at DSG's in college who'd wanna make out with me (a bi woman). What a tease!

But now I view it differently. I had some hot sexy funtimes with some women; some led to other things, some were just makeout sessions to get their boyfriends/random flirt dude hot. Got some kissing practice in on other women, which was a nice supplement to my skills when I actually dated the ones with follow-through potential. ;)

Tucked away on my hard drive is a series of photos of me smooching a bunch of different gal pals from one party, one weekend. I'll be happy I have those pix when I'm old & wrinkly.

@ 24 - yeah, most lesbians I've known don't date or even just fool around with bisexual ladies. Alas. I've known some super cute lesbians.

If DSG's only make out with other DSG's - hey, have fun. Doesn't vex me much. But when DSG's seek out bisexual or lesbian ladies for that kinda nonsense - knowingly - that's kinda f'd up.

@ 25 - lolzbian makeouts - hahahah. I hang out with fairly un-hung-up people; I've seen mostly straight dudes make out a couple of different times to get the attention of a gal who thought that was hot. :) 'course booze was involved.

DSG's aren't as bad as a recent trend I noticed in craigslist: "Pillow princesses". This was in the W 4 W section of "casual encounters". This is also a term another Slogger asked me to define in a SL column some weeks back, & I just forgot.

A pillow princess is someone who is probably mostly straight, curious to experiment with receiving oral sex from another woman, but is 100% upfront about her lack of interest in reciprocating. On the one hand, this term makes me roll my eyes. On the other hand, I met enough of this type of "experimental" lass in college, also, that I'm glad there's a word for it, & that the pillow princesses are letting people know who they are. That way, if that's for you - go for it. Not for me, though. ;)

I guess also that could work for a female/male relationship, but W 4 W is the first time I've come across pillow princesses.

DSG, here's why I hate your archetype.

I hate your archetype because I'm bi and no woman in their right mind wants to be with me because of it.

I hate your archetype because most of the really cute lesbians I hang out with wouldn't touch me with a ten-foot pole because they assume I'm a DSG - then DSGs target me and I wind up getting hurt even more. I'm shoved into a heterosexual corner when I'm not even primarily attracted to guys.

But most of all, I hate it because it makes it seem like everything we ladies do is to get the attention of guys we may not even like.

It may not be a problem for the LGBT community, but it IS MOST CERTAINLY a problem for the bisexual chicks around you. Seriously. Clean it up.
BBTB's son expects her to buy his porn for him? Or provide him access to the internet for porn? What??

Sounds like he is pushing the boundaries with her using emotional blackmail, and we never heard about a teenager doing that, huh.

Does this boy not have an imagination all of his own?
@22 that sucks but you sound realllly angry. Dating pretty much blows for most people who are looking for an actual relationship. I can only assume it's that much harder for lesbians. But getting pissed at the people who raise your hopes isn't productive and can lead to bitterness which we all know aint sexy.

The best way I've found to deal (as a straight woman who is a magnet for douchebags) is a) raise my expectations for who I spend time with; b) trust my gut--I usually have an inkling someone is playing games--I no longer ignore that instinct because I am wishing for a different outcome.
to the DSG question:
as a woman, DSG kissing bothers me because it reinforced the idea that all sexual desire & activity by women exists for the pleasure of men.
as a lesbian, DSG kissing bothers me BECAUSE IT REINFORCED THE IDEA THAT ALL SEXUAL DESIRE & ACTIVITY BY WOMEN EXISTS FOR THE PLEASURE OF MEN. and that girls being gay isn't real, its just a prolonged experiment in titillating straight men, making then think its ok to hit on us/make skeevy comments to us BECAUSE we like girls.
@22 you sound way too angry, and sorry, but when you go into dating it\\\'s your job to filter out douchebags.
I agree with #8. Playboy's relatively harmless. And unless you unload a massive collection of older issues onto someone, they're going to be going through a limited amount of material. And something I learned at that age is that there's only so many times one can spank it to a single issue of Playboy without getting a little bored with the pictorials. Which means that you actually start reading and appreciating the articles while waiting for the next issue to come out. Although I admit my experience (wherein I stumbled onto the shelf in the bathroom where my dad kept his Playboys) may not be universal.
I'm not sure how lesbian or bi girls feel, but as a sober straight guy, I love to watch any girls kissing, drunk or sober, straight, bi or lesbian. But these girls are setting the guys up for disappointment when they find out later that the girls are 100% straight. The guy probably gets with one of the kissing girls with the hopes one day of a threesome with both girls, which of course, will never happen. Then the guy feels lied to and cheated, and like he has wasted his time in a relationship that was based on misdirection.
@18: "give him a dumb phone and make him the laughing stock of the whole school...."

Oh come on. No 7th grader needs a smart phone. If that's "making him the laughingstock" then he needs some more character building experiences. Like "I am the only 7th grader in the school whose mom won't let him look at porn on the internet, oh whoa is me."

@28 - DSG's aren't responsible for the way people interpret their behavior. If someone buys into the bisexual stereotype, then it's on them and no one else. All of the things you list are choices made by non DSG's. Instead of hating DSGs, why not direct that hate towards the people who look at them and make sweeping generalizations and faulty inferences? Why should anyone have to not do what they enjoy out of fear that some idiot will incorrectly read into the behavior and stereotype an entire group of people?
@34 - if you're trying to get to a threesome by going after girls who flagrantly and drunkenly kiss in a bar while wasted and desperately trying to draw attention to themselves, You're Doing It Wrong.
@BBBF - Get him a Hustler instead. Way less airbrushing.
@ 22/Ninalyn: I thought of all those Nice Guys(tm) out there who get angry when gals use them for emotional support, and then run back to bad boy boyfriends for sex/love.

Those Nice Guys(tm) gripe about how gals they like will not engage with them in a sexual relationship, and how the women treat them like playthings for wicked ego-boosting tease sessions or something. In short, the Nice Guys(tm) sound just. like. you. From what I can tell, Nice Guys(tm) feel entitled to sexual access, based on their attraction to the woman and the female's social interactions with them. The Nice Guys(tm) get mad when they find out a woman had very limited interest in Nice Guys(tm) and she was reserving the sexy times fun for others. Just like you do.

As far as the DSGs go, first, Mr Savage was very clever to start his reply as if she were going to get what she deserved only to take a sharp turn and wander away.

Bear in mind that apparently these antics take place in locations where they are viewed by women who would like to be doing the same thing but with deeper meaning and feeling with the women who are the recipients of their affections and not just the means of communication. Are pairs of genuine same-sexer women free to indulge in the same conduct without facing unpleasant reprisals? If not, one is flaunting privilege, and that's almost always tricky.

I believe Ms Erica has recalled some adventures along these lines, which appeared to have been conducted in a respectful manner. Perhaps she might supply guidelines. My instinct is that DSGs are to same-sexer women something similar to bachelorette parties in gay bars. Some people will never like such conduct for reason, but, done with consideration and respect, most people can probably get along. This particular letter writer came across as if she wouldn't know the meaning of respect if she'd been locked in a closet for a year with Aretha Franklin.
As for Ms Spank Me! NOW!!! - Mr Savage's proposed conduct could work, but the answer feels incomplete. This could be the sort of issue for the BF that could bring about major changes in him. I'd only advise the LW to go ahead on the aggressive line if she's confident he's close enough to the non-existent ONE. Otherwise, a separation would probably be the kind thing for both.
@dsg's letter

As a bi-girl, it can offend me that dsg's kiss other dsgs for the viewing pleasure of men because it reinforces the idea that any time two girls are together, they should be ready and willing to perform.

In college,I had a steady girlfriend for the first time, and we were fairly open about our relationship. However, almost every time a guy figured out our relationship status, they would blatantly ask us to make out for them. This is offensive and rude and I can't believe someone would even ask. Especially when we were going about our daily business and eating breakfast in the cafe.

So,I would appreciate it if dsg didn't help contribute to the idea that women and lesbians are there for the viewing pleasure of men, because I had to deal with several immature assholes who demanded that I perform for them even though I had no interest in having my privacy invade. How would straight couples like it if they were asked to perform on demand?
Yeah, so much for freedom to behave as one pleases as long as said behavior does not violate the freedom of others to behave in a similar fashion*. Why shouldn't DSG's use their drunkeness to kiss whomever they please? Why is "it makes it hard for me** to find people to sleep with" any more accaptable a rationalization for stigmatizing the behavior than "I find it morally repugnant? Shouldn't people who have had their sexual(ized)(izable) socially stigmatized behavior be more sensitive to how they seek to stigmatize others' sexual(ize)(izable) behavior***?

*I picked rather general principle, some, please, no counterexample--I'm not using it as a literal articulation of my entire political philsophy.

**This is, ironically, the rather stereotyped "straight-boy" justification.

***Interestingly, the stereotypical "straight-boy" justification for DSG behavior is rather uncritically accepted as DSG rationalization for their behavior, which allows the LW to declare DSG behavior as only for the pleasure of men by fiat of social projection.
"Socially stigmatized behavior" shoud read "behavior socially stigmatized".

"Some" should read "so"

I logged in and posted, when my intent was just to log in.
@28 if you really are hanging out with lesbians, on a regular basis, and they "won't touch [you] with a ten-foot pole" because they assume you're a DSG, where and why are you hanging with these ladies?

If you're hanging out with someone regularly (and occasionally sober) for a while, shouldn't they by now have seen more than DSG in you? If they haven't, either you're talking about people you meet once in a bar, or you're only willing to look for girls while drunk, or your "hang-out lesbians" are douchebags.

Get thee to the internet dating, where other bisexuals and non-douchebag lesbians won't have you automatically down as a DSG, because you'll be putting yourself out there as looking for more than just drunken makeouts with a girl by virtue of being there.
As much as I'm disappointed that the couple at MEATGIF's gym seem to lack subtlety and the ability to do this at hours and at gyms when/where it's not going to be an issue ('24 Hour' Fitness literally is open 24 hours a day, that's the point--you couldn't find a time when nobody else is around to do this?), I have to admit, they aren't doing anything too bold, and as a switch who is really into sweat, gyms, and muscle/sweat/scent worship, that sounds like a fucking amazing workout session, for either of them.
Whoa: expression of delight or amazement
Woe: great sorrow or distress

People's english makes me exclaim: Whoa!

Woe is me! The language is doomed!
@22, then you need to get better at reading people. Work on yourself.

Yes, there are assholes (of all genders and orientations) who lead ppl on w/ no regard for their feelings. That sucks. But that's no reason to go ALL CAPS crazylesbian on all straight women who want to mess around in bars. Please.


a lesbian who could not care less what straight ppl do in bars. and who can't really argue against the immaculate hotness of ladies making out. Everyone should enjoy that. Everything doesn't have to culminate in a wedding, this isn't Pride and Prejudice.

(lastly, sure, I've had annoying moments in my life b/c people have assumed I'm "not really" a lesbian b/c I'm kind of straight-looking but guess what? THAT'S REALLY NOT THAT BIG OF A PROBLEM. Good god. One of the good things about being gay is that you have to learn not to crumple into a ball on your bathroom floor sobbing every time someone makes a mildly irritating comment.)
@31, but how big of a problem is that, really? Only assholes would really 100% believe that all lesbians (or really, all non-butch lesbians) are faking it. Those ppl are likely assholes generally, with larger issues surrounding women and their own masculinity.

@42, right but... as a tiny minority, it's not productive for us (bi women/lesbians) to politely request that straight ppl refrain from a benign behavior like this. I'd add that while my gf and I have had some awkward/rude questions asked of us, no one has ever asked that we make out for them. And we are feminine lesbians, the sort that, in this horror-movie scenario everyone seems to be talking about, would be more affected by these lesbians-are-all-DSGs truthers.

Most of my friends are guys. I wouldn't hang out w/ the kind of dude who would ask a lesbian couple to perform for him. That would be literally shocking.
@47: I realized after I posted, and there is no edit button. If it makes you happy, pretend it is a play on "And when my mom said I had to be creative and discreet about looking at porn, my life was over!"
Regarding BBTB: Does LW not have any male relatives who can be an outlet for her son? How about directing her son to more progressive and female friendly porn sites so that he gets what he wants and he gets healthier porn? There are a couple of ways this could play out so that her son doesn't have to risk getting in legal trouble (Side question: Would stealing porno mags be an offense that could land him on a sex offender registry?), and he doesn't have to feel ashamed by his budding sexuality. Just sayin'....
vennominon@40 -- generally I only fool around in public with friends, and they know I'm mostly het, and would prefer activities to stay above the waist. Observers may not know, but then in the BDSM community, many people, male & female, are exhibitionists and appreciative of exhibitionists. A good flogging scene, a good piercing scene, one man spanking another, two women making out... it's all fun to watch, and if something upsets you, you leave the room.

It's a bit different from the situation referenced @9 (and others): a vanilla hetero space when two het women put on a show for the men, to the annoyance of the other women present, het, bi, and gay.
Had another thought for SKIRT: if the cousin isn't able to call a sex line from the home, he can call her, and she can patch him into a three-way call to a sex line (so she gets the bill), and then she can mute the phone on her end and just come on to tell them to hang up after however long she wants to pay for.
Regarding BBTB: Does LW not have any male relatives who can be an outlet for her son? How about directing her son to more progressive and female friendly porn sites so that he gets what he wants and he gets healthier porn? There are a couple of ways this could play out so that her son doesn't have to risk getting in legal trouble (Side question: Would stealing porno mags be an offense that could land him on a sex offender registry?), and he doesn't have to feel ashamed by his budding sexuality. Just sayin'....
"The Path of Porn" was my favorite Lord of The Rings book.
Yeah, other people have said it, but basically my problem with drunk straight girls making out to attract men is that it often causes straight guys to think that ALL girls who are making out are trying to attract them and therefore want to be ogled and hit on while they're clearly occupied with someone else. It's pretty annoying.
Why is "putting on a show" not a valid for of sexuality?

Seems like a bunch of people are annoyed by DSGs because DSGs' behavior reflect poorly on them, which a pretty weak rationalization for insisting that the behavior is inappropriate.
This is becoming a recurring theme . . . "aspirational parenting" (the type of parents we aspire to be until the kids we actually have and the people we actually are change the way we actually parent.

Kids don't need smart phones - aspirational parent says, "I will give my child a smart phone and he will exercise good judgment because we talk about everything". How old is said child? "14". Good luck with that.

Directing your child to porn - aspirational parent says, "I will talk with my child about porn because he should understand that some is exploitive, most is staged (even the "amateur" sites), and we will explore together and it will help reinforce a healthy, non-objective view of the opposite sex." Do you think your child will be squicked out by looking at porn with mommy and daddy? "no". That's a level of comfort and openness that I have a hard time reconciling. Not the first part but the second part.

(and to reinforce a healthy view of the opposite sex and sexual curiosity, my parenting style is to acknowledge sexuality ("yes, sex feels good" and all the rest but I don't draw a roadmap of HOW you do certain things or WHERE you go for them (other than for condoms)), deal with issues of consent/respect head on ("Steubenville? A bunch of assholes. You NEVER do shit like that. Here's what's wrong . . . "); and model respectful behavior toward people of the opposite sex (even as I totally love looking at my kids' mom's breasts, pussy, ankle . . . they don't need to know EVERYTHING . . . and, of course, I do look at her with the upmost respect (as I think of creative ways of SHOWING that respect heh heh heh))

And while I am not fearful of porn-as-gateway-drug for my kids and am nonplussed about my kids viewing it (though I do worry about their ability to understand exactly what they are viewing), I am sad for them because so much of the discovery has been lost - I think some of the best part of sexual exploration at 13 and 14 and 15 was "opening the present" as we took off our clothes for the first times (I remember the first time I touched a girl's pussy, I was so surprised at how far down it was - after all, my dick was in front of me; of course I was inexperienced but there was (and continues to be) something sort of quaint about that discovery). Even when I was 13 and making out for something like 2 hours (who has that kind of time today?), I remember how amazing it was to keep my hand on my girlfriend's stomach. If I were 13 today, I'd expect several mind-blowing orgasms, acrobatics, prodigous squirts, etc., etc. Or at least I'd think that that was closer to the norm. So I weep for our youths' innocence lost through the viewing of porn. I don't worry about any long-term down side but I do think their short-term perception of reality can be a bit fucked up. Now get off my lawn.
Dan, I think you totally missed the question for LW1. She didn't ask about moving this guy. She asked: "I would like him to have a sexual outlet, but one that doesn't involve me. Any ideas?"

Answer: You set some boundaries in your conversations. When he brings up the topic of cross-dressing, you respond that you really enjoy having conversations with him, but that you don't want to discuss that topic anymore. Then, change the subject. If he can't move past, then you politely excuse yourself.

Dan the MAN---LOL!!!! I LOVE your advice to PLUG----"that shit pays off in the end." I so do enjoy reading your column, and continue to learn something new every week! Thanks again for making this crazy lady's day!

Hmmmm.....speaking of which, Smitten Kitten does an interesting butt plug selection. Very colorful, I'll say that.
So very thankful my mom wasn't the overly-opinionated, authoritarian type like BBTB. (Dad, too, for that matter.)

@55: Kids don't NEED porn.

And yet the lengths they'll go to get it!

I shoplifted 2 years worth of Playboys and Penthouses as an adolescent. Before that I spent a month's worth of paper route money buying a small stash from some neighborhood kid. And prior to that I made due with the women's underwear section in the Sears catalog. And I still remember the embarrassment of my mom asking what her Redbook magazine was doing under my mattress. (Well, you see, ma, it's got this picture of a boob in it.) I even remember turning to National Geographic on few desperate occasions.

Why stunt a kid's sexual imagination

Pfffft. Porn doesn't stunt one's imagination any more than do real women and real sex, for which it serves as a proxy. If you take away porn and real sex from a man, he'll be jerking off to his imagination again in a matter of weeks, and his imagination will be all the richer for having viewed the porn and had sex with the real women.

Just to add, I don't think it's a hugely important problem, but it's definitely one I come up against more often than I'd like...
@63, yeah exactly. Those attitudes do sometimes police the behavior of actual lesbians like myself. Probably some lesbians have had similar experiences to me: I remember one night kissing a girl in city park park and suddenly some guys were cheering. I was frankly too in to what I was doing to be super aware of them, but it was mildly annoying I guess.

And I guess I just accept that that's the way the world is? And that it could be a lot worse? Think about the reception gay dudes get from those sort of straight guys sometimes, which is in fact a lot worse. Or is that too negative a worldview?

But I really don't see why drunk straight girls deserve the blame for dumb groups of dudes looking to loudly comment on lesbians making out. As @58 said, why are they not allowed to do whatever they want?
@42 "[a]lmost every time a guy figured out our relationship status, they would blatantly ask us to make out for them. This is offensive and rude and I can't believe someone would even ask."

I can totally believe that there are a few guys so poorly socialized that they would ask chicks who might be into that sort of thing to do said things for that guy's pleasure.

However, it's like that saying about how everyone has to deal with an asshole or two every day, but if you're dealing with more than that, you're probably the asshole...
MMK, proceed with extreme caution. You're in a better position to judge, but you could stumble into a major trigger if you force the issue with your bf. Light spanking falls generally into the category of GGG, but he's already expressed he has issues with it. You may be able to work past it or it may tank your relationship.

MEATGIF, Dan's not wrong. Public D/s play. There's a Dom with a very hot tumblr who writes about this a lot, but it's in the context of someone who's also working out (despite the scene happening, anyone looking at it would think they were workout buddies). If it is everyone who's freaked out, speak to the management. Doing a muscle worship scene at the gym is over the line if all of you didn't consent to participate in the scene.
I think Dan missed an opportunity to give some of my favorite advice to STAP. Want to share sex toys? Throw a condom over them and go to town. Don't want to deal with cleaning your sex toys after use? Throw a condom on them and cleanup is trivial. Want to use one toy in multiple orifices? Condoms again.

And silicone doesn't whine about how it "can't feel anything" with a rubber on.
re: DSGs

Back when I was about 22, having harbored mega lust for girls for ages but functionally a straight girl at the time, I was at a local bar in Oly. Lots of friends and coworkers around that night. I had recently begun a thing with one of my coworkers, DSB, and later that night after having been introduced to a gal pal of his, she and I started making out hot and heavy at the bar. I was ELATED. This was the first time I'd ever made out with a girl and it was hot and I was in heaven.

Later on, one of my anarchist coworkers (Oly, need I say more?) expressed his displeasure to me that I had been 'that drunk straight girl making out with girls to get guy's attention'-- woosh, there went my happiness. He didn't know me, he didn't know I'd been waiting for a moment like that for forever, and it was really upsetting. I was young, did not defend myself, and it still (obviously) bugs me to this day.

I'm 29 now, and only in the past year have I finally had the guts to come out as queer (what I've been in my heart all these years) to my friends and family. Femme invisibility sucks (just as much as it sucks that I benefit from the associated privileges of that invisibilty when convenient) which is why I talk about my queer identity and queer issues a bunch more now to combat it.

DSG obviously knows and owns what she's doing, but just a reminder: you don't always know someone's history or identity, so don't be so quick to judge.
"Spanking someone without consent is assault, but spanking someone with consent is sexy. And you're going to spank me right now, with my consent, and it's going to be hot."

I guess Dan forgot that consent needs to be BOTH WAYS? What happened to the GUY'S consent here? If he doesn't want to spank her, he DOES NOT HAVE TO.
Is there any reason other than sexually-transmitted-infection issues—not an issue for us—that we shouldn't share a butt plug?

Um -- because you can't both use it at the same time?

And while I realize that most fecal germs are not as dangerous as people think (otherwise we'd all be dead, the way they migrate around), they aren't utterly benign, either.
Why is the onus on DSGs to control what men think about what they do? Why is the problem with them rather than some men being sexist (women and female sexuality exist for my pleasure) or homophobic (all lesbians are just the right dick, preferably mine, away from straightdom)? Objectifying women is part of the larger culture, not something that sprang up because Katy Perry kissed a girl.

Re: the crossdressing disabled guy... I have to say, LW says his mental age is about eight. Does she really know his wearing dresses is sexual? When my brother and I were kids we both crossdressed as part of imaginative play. For all I know he now likes to wear women's panties, but... Assuming a role of the opposite gender can be innocent fun for kids. Presumably as the cousin has an adult body he has some sexual desires, but that doesn't make his play acting a kink.
DSGs annoy me not because of what they are doing, or how they "reflect" on anyone else, but because they are often the kind of girls that I find really tiresome. They are usually the female counterpart to bro-dude boys. I don't care how hot any of them are: bleck.

I'll take the table in the back with the butch chick and the femmey guy doing shots and arguing about nerdy things...and see if they'll make out with me.
@27, I must have missed the definition of "pillow princess" in a previous thread... Can't say I'm thrilled with the term, but it's good to know there are enough of us to come up with one. I never quite know how to explain it on the rare occasions it comes up. I think women are beautiful, I can be turned on by women, but I have almost zero interest in any vagina that isn't mine (I say almost because I'm sure there's gotta be one or two exceptions). I've made out with other girls, and let them do things to me, but I would never think to lead them on that I wanted to do anything back.
22: If you’re making out with strangers in bars (which is fine), there are thousands of reasons that these encounters might not turn into fulfilling, committed relationships; DSGs leading you on is only one of those reasons, and not the main one.

It’s even less likely to be a factor if you’re buying gifts for these girls and going on dinner dates before getting dumped. I’ve seen plenty of the DSG “make out to impress boys at a bar” sessions, and generally they don’t involve going on multiple dates with the girl and exchanging gifts.

It sounds more like you’re just dating women and getting dumped by some of them. And I don’t know; maybe some of them are bi, so you’re seeing them with guys later and assuming it was just a DSG act all along or something.

DSG’s may be ridiculous and a bit annoying (most forms of flirtation are), but it’s bizarre to insist that they’re somehow able to stop you from finding romance. Other lesbians seem to manage just fine.

Back to the main thread: people who doubt the existence of genuine bisexuality and lesbianism are simply homophobic, stupid assholes. They are not “caused” by DSGs. They may bring them up as argument fodder from time to time, but the homophobia and stupidity are what’s causing them to confuse DSGs with bi/lesbianism; not vice versa. They would still be stupid homophobes if there were no such thing as DSGs.

DSGs are nothing more than one of the many inevitable manifestations of humanity’s fluid “gradient” of sexuality: just queer enough to enjoy some same-sex makeouts while the other sex watches/participates. Our species simply doesn’t fit neatly into “100% straight – exactly 50/50 bisexual – 100% gay.” People along any part of this gradient should do what they like, and when morons point at them and draw moronic inferences, the right answer is to yell at the morons, not at the people they’re watching.

Same thing with the guys who demand that “real” lesbians make out to entertain them. Why on earth would you search for some loose logical connection that allows you to blame some random women (DSGs or otherwise) rather than blaming the entitled asshole himself for being an entitled asshole?
@42, et al,

I don't get the logic of all the arguments here saying that girls shouldn't act a certain way because that will only reinforce guys' ideas that ALL girls should act that way.

Guys who think that all girls want to perform for them are assholes. Guys who thing that all girls should perform for them are assholes. Guys who think there's no such thing as a lesbian are assholes. It is not any woman's responsibility to limit her activities in hopes that it'll make these assholes less assholey.

It could well be that girls who make out with other girls for the sole purpose of attracting male attention are themselves assholes, but if so, it's just because these "look at me" types are kind of icky, and not because of what they might cause asshole men to generalize about the entire female population. That generalizing is the fault of the guy doing it.
Definitely no expert on this Dan, but from my conversations with young lesbian friends (college age to mid twenties) the behavior that Drunk Straight Girl describes, if performed with a bi/lesbian girl (she doesn't identify that she is kissing straight girls) is quite offensive. Remember when you were single in your twenties. If some attractive guy came on to you and started making out with you, then announce, "Sorry, I'm straight." just so he could get the attention of some female, wouldn't you be offended?

Now if Drunk Straight Girl is kissing other straight girls, who cares.
For DSG: one, don't sell out your sexuality to attract men. If you win a man over by making out with other girls, but you don't actually want to fuck one, how is that going to play out over the course of your relationship? It's false advertising, and it starts out a potential partner with the wrong expectations from you.
Also, as a girl who's gone with girls, it's fucking obnoxious that I can be out with a girl, and suddenly every guy around thinks we're putting on a show for him. Do you know how uncomfortable it is to pull out from a kiss and realize twenty strangers are staring and grinning at you, expecting more? There's nothing wrong with men enjoying lesbians, but we've created a mythos of lesbians-are-for-men's-entertainment through this kind of flirting.
And the third reason why it's lame? It's lame. It's a cheap trick. If sticking your tongue down your drunk straight friend's throat is the only way you can get a guy, I can't imagine you can keep one for very long.
@39: BS. See, the Nice Guys expect all women to exist for their sexual gratification.

I do not expect this. What I expect is to NOT BE USED. Don't start a relationship with me, let me take you on dates, call you my girlfriend TO OTHER PEOPLE, etc., etc., and two months in when I suggest you sleep over, you say "oh, I'm straight, I thought you knew."

THAT is bullshit. If you're straight and you know I'm gay and you know I think we're dating and you are any kind of responsible, you'll say "hey--no offense, but you do know I'm straight, right?" the first time I introduce you as my girlfriend. It's not called "friendzoning"--I've definitely had straight girl friends I was attracted to, gone to a couple of activities with, and then had them tell me "you know, just so you know, I love doing stuff with you but I'm straight" and I have no problem with that (one of my best friends in college was a failed dating attempt that we still laugh about several years later). What I have a problem with is being really, actively led on.

@ other commenters telling me to stop hanging with douchebags, etc.: out of a total of four relationships I've had, TWO of them have been with girls like this--one whom I met first online through a shared love of musicals and then in person, and one who was part of a group of my friends; we did in fact meet in a bar, but could as easily have done in a restaurant or other "girls' night out" venue; the bar was just where we happened to be hanging that night. Where did they get the idea it was okay to make me an experiment (one of them flat out told me she was bisexual, only for me to discover later that she has no interest in women beyond what they can buy for her) without telling me? And I quote: "I see other girls do it all the time, I didn't know you'd be so upset." WHERE DO YOU SUPPOSE THEY ARE SEEING THESE GIRLS, HM?

DSGs make it harder for lesbians and MUCH harder for bisexuals: 24, 26, I hate to tell you I'm one of those lesbians with a no-bisexuals rule because fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice, shame on me. There is no fooling me three times.

Damned right I'm angry. I'm angry that it's okay for two DSGs to go to a lesbian bar, spend all night making out with each other, and then call me a disgusting queer. I'm angry that they think it's funny to point and laugh and try to shame actual lesbians. I'm angry for my bisexual friends that they have to put up with this bullshit (I assume that they, at least, are not lying to me about their orientations because, having been placed firmly in the friend category, they have no reason to do so). I'm angry and disgusted that this behaviour leads to men who find out I'm a lesbian and go "so, like--I can watch you and your girlfriend make out, right?" (The number of men who have offered to pay me to do this is absolutely revolting. I'm not a whore, assholes.) I'm angry that there are women who think it's funny to go out of their way to cockblock other women.

Don't like it? Try being on the gay side of the fence for once. Ask a gay man what he hates most about gay bars these days, and odds are good he'll agree with me: "All the straight women."

77: Those "twenty strangers" sure are assholes. Care to elaborate on how it's a bunch of women's fault, and not their own?
@78, "Don't start a relationship with me, let me take you on dates, call you my girlfriend TO OTHER PEOPLE, etc., etc., and two months in when I suggest you sleep over, you say "oh, I'm straight, I thought you knew.""

I suggest holding off on calling it a relationship until after you have sex together.
@60- you'll make the kid cry, he doesn't get why you are ashamed to talk about shit that you were (until recently) comfortable speaking about. Is it even sexual ? Would he be capable of expressing if he were trans ? Unless he starts talking about graphic stuff I'd just leave it alone, make sure he eats his veggies and Santa might bring you a sears gift card for Christmas.
@baffled- thanks for raising a jerk with no boundaries. You're clueless, where is his dad, or at least the more masculine partner ? You see that kid in the shops telling their mom to fuck off ? That's the same kid telling his girl/boyfriends/husbands/wives the same thing years later. I think the poit Dan was trying to make (or the one I heard anyways) was that it is plain fucked up and inappropriate for you to supply your son with jerk off material, and it's really inappropriate for him to ask. It seems like she is asking for permission to do something she knows is wrong just for the sake of expediency, or just plain ease.
@Ninalyn: I'm quite enjoying your hilarious impression of the stereotypical "Lesbian With Chip On Shoulder". Great stuff!
@69 THANK YOU. That really bothered me too, and I kept waiting for someone to bring it up. Dan is suggesting that she give her boyfriend this snarky little speech and then ORDER him to spank her? His reasons for not wanting to spank her sound really legitimate. She might be treading on a minefield here, and they should really negotiate before they do anything that might trigger him.
78: I think most of us find it baffling how you can equate “I dated a girl for two months and she broke up with me while claiming to be straight” with “she must have been making out with me to impress boys.” Was there a giggling drunk guy tagging along with you guys those entire two months?

Sounds more like someone struggling with the closet (or you being wayyyy too hopeful about a platonic friendship), not a drunk straight girl. DSG encounters tend to be singular make-out sessions for a few minutes at a party or bar, not months-long relationships involving dinner dates and meeting the family. If she brought up DSGs as her “inspiration” for “trying you out,” I guarantee you that she was grasping for an excuse for her behavior (or was severely stupid). DSGs don’t “cause” conflicted closet cases to try dating women as they “figure out” their sexuality.

Your stories are simply cases of assholes being assholes and blaming strangers for their own behavior (gee, that’s not common at all). Quit being gullible and swallowing up their bullshit.
At 13 would the kid settle for a Victoria's Secret catalog?
What I want to know is, if a DSG makes out with a DSB, does that mean the DSG has to follow through with the DSB? Is it okay for her to tease him a bit at the bar/party/friend's living room and then go home alone? Because I have been known to be a DSG on occasion, and I enjoy making out with willing humans, but I'm not going to take them home just because I got to first base with them.
@78 - i second EricaP. in fact, sex or not, two months is not a relationship, and the issue here is one of romantic delusion. you should never have called her your girlfriend in public, and without discussion and consent!?! that is actually pretty fucked up.
Anti porn mom is as dumb as the crazy christians who try to beat the love of porn out of their sons. All it does is make the normal thing their normal kid wants (looking at pussies) into a naughty thing all twisted up with kinky embarrassment and self loathing. Giving your son an old-school feminist scolding about their desires is no better than telling them rubbing their dicks makes baby Jesus cry.

She wants to let him see Playboy; full of airbrushed, bleached, silicone bimbos instead of the internet where it is at least possible to see real people having real sex? Dan has given much better advice on this subject in the past: speak to your son about how porno sex can be different than real person sex and that not many real women will be interested in lots that you see on the internet. That porn is private and should not be viewed in public. Then give him back his damn phone and pretend not to hear him beating off in his room like a good mom.
For all those claiming that DSGs cause harm by perpetuating straight boy bullshit about the “purpose” of lesbians:

Women who perform an act “for” a guy aren’t grooming that guy to expect said act from all women. A guy is responsible for his own outlook on women. For example:

Several women have had sex with me. If I therefore expect all women to just automatically have sex with me, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?

Even more women have given me blowjobs. If I then turn around and start thinking it’s a given that sucking my dick is just something I should expect all women to do, whose fault is that: theirs, or mine?

Should women everywhere stop giving blowjobs or fucking in order to avoid potentially validating the misconceptions of entitled, sexist men?

You can see where I’m going here. If some guy automatically expects something of all women because a few have done that thing for him in the past, that’s on HIM. It’s his fault for being an asshole, not their fault for not policing their own behavior with the (impossible) goal of never doing anything that a guy might later expect women in general to do for him.

There’s no reason this logic shouldn’t also apply to drunk chicks making out with each other to entertain a guy. If he then expects that to be the “role” of all lesbians or all women, that’s HIS fault for being an entitled, moronic prick. It’s not their fault for failing to baby him.
#5 - The problem is when DSBs overgeneralize and assume that any lady/lady action is intended for their entertainment. I'd like to be able to kiss another girl in public without being subject to catcalls and propositions. It's very unpleasant.
Years ago you published a column about advice to a teenage boy on how to prepare yourself to attract women in the future. It was a great column. My son was about 9 at the time. I printed and filed it and gave it to my son when he was 14. BBTB could probably benefit from a reprint.
Years ago you published a column about advice to a teenage boy on how to prepare himself to attract women in the future. It was a great column. My son was about 9 at the time. I printed and filed it and gave it to my son when he was 14. BBTB could probably benefit from a reprint.
Dear Drunk Straight Girl, Dan has dropped the ball on this one, so let me answer your question. People like me hate DSG's because you cause straight men to question the existence of bisexuality and lesbianism. Because of your displays, they assume that when I kiss my girlfriend, it is for THEIR benefit and not because we are in a loving relationship. They also assume that we're purposely trying to turn them on, and get pissed off when we tell them, "No, you can't join us, and no, you can't watch. Fuck off." Yes, this really happens. So knock that shit off, or the next time a DSG approaches me and my gf I'm giving him your home address.

Another thing- who exactly are you making out with? If it's another DSG, fine- but do you know how many times I've been pussy teased by DSGs who I didn't know were DSGs? DSGs usually omit to mention they aren't actually gay. If you aren't sincere in your desire for me, if you are only going to make out with me and tease me, then stay the hell away. Bi girls and lesbians do not appreciate being hit on by DSGs and your boyfriend. In fact, it pisses us off. Get a fucking clue- you don't get to use people for your personal benefit and then leave them by the wayside. That is sincerely fucked up and selfish.

There you go- now you know why we hate you.
93: You should hate the people who question the existence of bisexuality and lesbianism, not the DSGs that they cling to as their flimsy excuse.

Read my posts to find out why! :D
Dear @22,

With all due respect, DSGs do the same thing to guys as well. Sadly it's just par for the course.

"Straight guy here,"



Seriously people; how difficult is it so difficult to wrap your heads around the notion that straight men are responsible for their own misconceptions about lesbian women? Why is it ALWAYS necessary to dig up some excuse to blame other women?

I'd expect this kind of shit from beaten-down Mormon sisterwives, but not from self-described "out and proud" lesbians.
"#22 - Ninalyn,"


Dan Savage WAS THE ONE WHO SAID [sic], " ... DSGs KISSIN' DSGs." "Drunk Straight Girl" DID NOT SAY THE GIRLS SHE IS KISSING ARE straight.


"#32 - puddles,"



Now I'm sad, because I recall how we had the conversation about making out with somebody of one gender to attract somebody of another gender when the admirable Ms Canuck was still among us. I remember it was during this conversation that I was surprised to discover that she had previously been unaware of Jeffrey Buttle (native figure skating champions getting much better press in Canada than in the US, it was surprising that a Canadian wouldn't at least have known him by sight without having to look him up) as well as of Stephane Lambiel. I do miss Ms Canuck. She was one of the few straight people who actually stopped baiting trolls by calling them closeted once such conduct was pointed out as Not Very Nice.

Not much to add except to respond to:

[a lesbian who could not care less what straight ppl do in bars. and who can't really argue against the immaculate hotness of ladies making out. Everyone should enjoy that. Everything doesn't have to culminate in a wedding, this isn't Pride and Prejudice.]

I think Sense and Sensibility would be a better example. Could we change "everyone" to "all lovers of women"? (It occurs to me that I have not actually been in the company of a drunk straight woman since my sister's wedding, more than twenty years ago. My mother, whom I have seen drunk more often than any other woman, is perfectly free to make out with any other living creature she likes, but I never got on well enough with her ever to care to observe her in action.)

And most importantly, if the word has any meaning at all, this LW at the very least is NOT a lady. I shall not presume to judge conduct I have not seen by making a blanket condemnation of the activity, but suppose that, if the lack of respect and consideration for others manifested by outmaking DSGs is anything like what is suggested by the descriptions given, not a great many of them would qualify (nor, I suspect, would much of their target audience qualify for the corresponding golden G).

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