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@261 Sucks that you didn't press charges, but I do unfortunately understand mistrust in the legal system and am a bit sympathetic to vigilatism with sex crimes and minority victims. You are letting your ex off the hook pretty easily I think; did she encourage you to press charges? As for early disclosure, if you had been out to her or disclosed immediately or early in the first date, her asshole would have heard "I met a guy with girl parts today!" or "I can't believe I hit on a guy with girl parts today!" instead of "I thought this nice guy and I were hitting it off but he was stringing me along because he was hiding girl parts, wah!" I think that the response would have been different. And more out means more aware of safety issues. But you are right, I can't know if it would have prevented serious crimes. In my imagination at least, the asshole is roasting on a spit. Mmm roast asshole.
me @19: " 'Liking penis doesn't make me a homophobe.' Agreed. Feeling disappointed to learn that this attractive man has no penis would be an appropriate response. Ending the relationship is an appropriate response." [Note to Eudaemonic: those were NCA's responses, as far as I can tell]
me @39: "NCA doesn't sound outraged. NCA knows Marcus, and sees him as a guy, and just doesn't want to continue dating. Absolutely reasonable."
The fact that (early on, before 79) I criticized other people who reacted to the scenario with anger doesn't mean that I accused NCA of reacting with anger.
Yay, we agree!
Meanwhile, my gynecologist, amazing naturopath, and the good folks down at PeaceHealth Laboratories are all saying that my internal lab reports are otherwise love letters, so this one's definitely a stumper.
Hopefully, my gynecologist's office will call me back soon, offering more encouraging news and further options. I absolutely hate my uterus at this point in my life, no matter HOW healthy my insides reportedly are.
I can't think of any way to rectify this impression, so I'm going to stick with bowing out.
If only I had a wonderful wife, an awesome son, good friends, supportive parents, a satisfying job--oh, wait. I do have all that. Never mind. Crisis averted, internet troll!
"...Lying is wrong because it violates human autonomy. Lying forces the victim to pursue the speaker's objectives instead of the victim's..."
- David A. Strauss, Persuasion, Autonomy,
and Freedom of Expression, 91 COLUM. L. REV. 334, 355 (1991);
The fact is that, however we dress it up, Marcus indulged in self-serving lies - he coerced NCA into pursuing Marcus' objectives instead of her own.
These weren't little white lies like "no, you don't look at all fat in that dress" or "yes, I'd love to watch 'The Matrix' with you for the 9th time" or "Yes, your mac-n-cheese is the ultimate mac-n-cheese of all time" that we sometimes indulge in for the purpose of getting our partner into a more-receptive mood for sex.
What Marcus did was rob NCA of her human autonomy, her right to say with whatever kindness and compassion she truly felt in the moment, "Gosh, Marcus, I'm really disappointed but I have to be honest and say that I'm not interested in being in a sexual relationship with you if you're a transman. I want a lover with a natural male body. I am not sexually interested in vulvas or vaginas or substitutes for real male genitals. I wish you all the best, but no, I cannot take that next step into sex with you."
Do you see what Marcus did as worse than JunieGirl's guy hiding his severe ED until she was emotionally attached to him? If so, why is it worse?
What consequences do you think Marcus should face?
EricaP It's over 300 comments in, can't you just let it go at this point?
I already stated that I think Marcus should be socially shunned by NCA forever for betraying her trust. I also think that the only fair thing for Marcus to do is apply to transfer to a different college (one hopes far, far out of state) and cede their mutual friends to NCA. She didn't do anything wrong and shouldn't be walking on eggshells for the rest of her time at that college.
Note: if "rape by deception" were illegal in her community and she wanted to press charges, I would support her decision. But after further reading and research, I doubt either would apply in this situation.
Other than that, I hope everyone learned something, that Marcus stops lying to intimate partners about important things ("those jeans look fine on you" - yes; "I have a penis but I'm saving it for later" - no!) and that NCA isn't too damaged by the experience to reasonably trust friends and lovers again in the very near future.
>> I hope everyone learned something >>
@319 If he passes and he's happy, no big deal. I don't want a world where I'm not a woman until you see my junk. Your perception that a trans man is not a man does not make it reality. It's just disrespectful of a reasonable preference.
@325 I guess you're mostly American because of Americans like her too. This has nothing to do with equality, it's about dishonesty and disclosure.
People will put up with more or less of bad behavior in a partner depending on other factors (fear of being alone, desperately wanting an intact family for their children, feeling fulfilled in other areas, low self-esteem, etc.) but my tolerance for sexually abusive coercion/manipulation is very, very low.
We're not talking about someone unthinkingly handing her a Coke when she ordered Pepsi.
Lying to someone over a period of months in order to have sex that their target would have rejected if fairly informed is waaaaay creepy and should, in my opinion, be ringing all kinds of warning bells about past, current and future bad behavior.
Lewis Carroll and Joseph Heller are looking down on this and laughing their asses off.
By reducing rape to something so idiotic its an offence to women and all rape victims.
Some of you should try harder to be good loving people. Love, live and let live
and not disclosing a hysterectomy is not analogous. you can still have any and all kinds of sex with a hysterectomy. you just can't have babies. i somehow don't think breeding was a consideration in this instance.
If the underlying (defining) principle of anti-rape laws is preserving a human right to "sexual autonomy" then sex without consent *** is rape ***.
If NCA would not have consented to sex with Marcus had she known that Marcus is a transman with a female body, and Marcus reasonably knew this and chose to not just withhold this information but to lie about having a penis and his desire to have PIV with her in the future, all as part of a scheme to intentionally deceive NCA into oral and digital sex, then Marcus deprived NCA of her sexual autonomy. NCA was coerced into unwanted sex via intentional deception.
This could easily be proven by either Marcus confessing to his intentions and asking for mercy ("I thought she wouldn't want to have sex with me if she knew") or by a prosecutor offering into evidence witness testimony, Marcus' writings in a journal, letters or e-mails to friends, etc.
As mentioned above, when het males are *tricked* into oral or anal sex with a transwoman, sometimes they are so outraged that they murder the impersonator afterwards. We all know that this has happened dozens of times in recent years. The cases are all over the news. Why should we be surprised or make fun of the fact that a woman could also be horrified, ashamed and/or appalled after being tricked into sex with a female-bodied transman?
I think Marcus is getting off remarkably easy, given her behavior (she probably won't be seeing the inside of a courtroom over this) but I also think that if this kind of behavior persists (is enabled or minimized within the trans* community), we'll inevitably see more of these cases ending up in criminal or civil courts.
There's nothing absurd about heterosexual female human beings (or anyone else) having a right to sexual self-determination.
I was willing to give you the benefit of the doubt earlier, that you didn't *intend* to imply that rape survivors are weak because they failed to fight to the death. But it turns out victim-blaming is just kind of your thing.
Of course not all anti-trans violence is provoked. But when someone LIES to another person and defrauds them into having sex they wouldn't have agreed to otherwise, then some percentage of the victims of sexual fraud (like some percentage of victims of every other category of fraud) are going to become violent over being defrauded. How many? 1%? 5%? 10% I don't know exactly, buy it's not 0%. Reading the news makes this perfectly clear.
Understanding human nature doesn't make me a victim-blamer any more than saying "if you stick your hand in the tiger's cage it might bite you" makes me a victim-blamer.
People like you shove the victims of rape by deception into a corner. You give them no recourse, no path to justice. Yes, most people will just take the humiliation, the degradation, the betrayal and try to piece their dignity and their lives back together. But given the chance, some percentage of them will strike out in rage.
Speaking this truth isn't victim-blaming. It's shining a light on how retaliatory violence can be avoided. I honestly don't care if you agree. But I do care that young, ignorant, and inexperienced trans folks learn before they're facing imminent harm that rape by deception is not a game, it's not a victimless crime and they will not always get away with it with impunity.
I would suggest that you educate yourself and learn how to reason before you make baseless and irrational accusations, but I see that this is "just kind of your thing".
1) "Of course not all anti-trans violence is provoked." Uh, yeah, try *almost no anti-trans violence is provoked.* Not even a significant fraction of anti-trans violence comes from people their trans victims had sex with. Your handwringing about how all the young trans folks out there raping people are risking retaliatory violence is just jaw-droppingly ignorant.
2) You insist on equating Marcus to a criminal, but you're the only one who sees him that way. NCA doesn't mention any feeling that he raped her. She certainly doesn't mention having her "trust shattered, dreams betrayed, hopes crushed", no matter how much you want her to.
3) When criminals are killed for being criminals, rather than by an act of self-defense, their killers are murderers. Weird, I know, but individuals are actually responsible for their own actions. There's no level of anger or disgust that becomes permission to administer your own violent punishment. Or, to put it another way, if a woman flirts outrageously with a man in the bar, she's not responsible for that man raping her later, no matter how much he felt she was asking for it.
(By the way, I saw in the other column you were complaining about being labeled as transphobic. Since you apparently can't understand why that would be, let me explain. I see you as transphobic because you often refer to Marcus as "she" and accuse "her" of tricking NCA into "lesbian sex", not to mention calling transpeople "imposters". Refusing to respect another person's identity is hateful. Insisting that Marcus is really a woman is no better than saying, "Sure I know that nigger would like to be called African-American, but call a spade a spade, amiright?")
Sure, it's easy to paint the violence, even to the point of murder, against the trans community as simply the horrified reaction of some poor man who was tricked into sex with a dude, but that's not even half of it. Our society does not need the excuse of some cishet individual being tricked into gay sex (because, of course, it's vitally important in these situations that we ignore identity and insist that the trans individual is the gender on their birth certificate, no matter what) in order to justify violence against them, it is enough that they are "impostors" in daily life before we even reference their sex lives.
Trans people face abuse and discrimination as standard, so they have reasons, supplied by our society, to avoid advertising their status... but hiding that status is deception and fraud, and it's their own stupid fault if someone kills them for it? They have a good chance of being killed if they don't hide themselves, and they have a good chance of being killed if they do. In what universe is that a liveable situation? We put them in an impossible position, and blame them for the outcome whichever way it turns out. We force them to hide who they are if they are able, and then we vilify them for doing so. That is neither rational nor just.
Yes, full disclosure is obviously preferable, but how can we expect it when we make exposure so threatening? They're deviants if they're honest, and they're deceivers if they hide, and either way they deserve what they get. Heads we win, tails they lose. How can any of us look at that situation and not recognise it for the utter bullshit that it is? It's irrational, immoral, and incoherent to maintain this double standard, and more so to put the blame on them when we've given them no choices.
I don't think he's a terrible person or anything. I think he's young and naive and inexperienced and did something stupid and selfish while attempting to navigate a difficult and scary situation. Mistakes happen, especially at that age. But what he did is not at all okay and you shouldn't be arguing that outrage is an inappropriate response.
What you are effectively saying is that it is perfectly okay to have sex with people KNOWING that you are withholding information that would cause them to say no, just because you disagree that that information should matter. YOU don't EVER get to decide that for someone else. And that is why this argument always sounds SUPER rapey, and you and trans activists in general would do well to just fucking drop it.
Furthermore, I think it's disingenuous for you to be arguing that someone's gender and sex are on the same level of importance as whether one is an asshole or a gun owner. You KNOW that most people feel much more deeply and viscerally about the former, and the latter is entirely cultural. You know it's not the same.
I think you might have some good points buried somewhere in the mess of an argument you are trying to make, but speaking from a place of intellectual dishonesty is not going to do you any favors, score you any points, or get anyone to take what you have to say seriously.
Either way, stop trying to shame people for how they feel about fucking trans people. Working for a more accepting world for trans people in other ways, outside the bedroom, will naturally have the effect of getting people to let go of their prejudices and preconcieved notions and make them more open to the idea. You can't put the cart before the horse on that one. But even in a perfectly accepting world, there would still be tons of people who really didn't want to have sex with trans people. And that's okay. You can't pretend that a trans man is exactly the same in every way as a cis man. The earlier they are allowed to transition, the fewer those differences are, but there are still obviously some major ones and always will be. You can admit that a trans man is a different type of man than a cis man without seeing him as a woman or some shit. But they ARE different. Both men, but different. The bedroom is one of the only places where those differences matter, and I think that's why a lot of trans activists get caught up in these cotton-ceiling-type arguments, but the difference DO matter there, and always will. Let it go.