@182

Also - "I'm not saying she shouldn't (eventually) decide to move on, but I think a thirty year commitment is worth spending a while (maybe a few years) trying to fix/improve."

Tell that to him.

@120 Go do a survey at your local nursing home. Ask the ladies if they ever masturbated or experienced orgasm. Try not to cry til you get in your car.

@196 Maybe you are confusing things with the fact that women get bored sexually far sooner than men do? Having the chance to fuck around would put those women right back on the horse, I'm sure. Nothing against the husbands. Guys just don't need as much variety as women do.

Plus, I'm told having kids sucks the sex drive right out of you. It looks like it sucks the very life out of you, actually. For stay at home dads too. Anyway, nothing a nice NSA won't fix.

Hey Gnot; have no idea re conditions for raising children in the US. I get the feeling everything in the US, is very different to social conditions here- in intensity.
Babies, though. All goes round the same way. I can understand people not wanting children. It is very hard, esp if you are a fucking lunatic like me, and have thousands. The benefit though, it's profound.
Pregnancy feels like nothing else one goes thru. Birthing, crazy shit there.
Intense sensations( pain).. Breastfeeding, lovely .. Sleepless nites/ teething/ toddlers/ etc etc etc..
Now. That my kids are grown, pretty much. Into there own thing- I love it. Love the intimacy I have with each of them. Love they challenge me. Love them.
No other relationship compares to this weird connection, to these grown people, that one day many moons ago- were expelled from your cunt.
Your anger with this guy, I do understand. The LW, she is part of this fuck up, too.

she loves him. He's a good father.
Not a lot of women( mothers) can utter those words.
They have a family.
Yes. The sex is bad. Both of then have contributed to that. Hopefully both of them can find a way to good sex. If I was her, now she's tasted her delights: I would insist on both of them doing whatever needs to be done, to achieve good sex together. If this can't be achieved.
. Then I'd quietly go to a very good sex worker.
And I wouldn't tell him. I'd keep my family going. Cause I love my family.
And as long as my husband and I kept a closeness, an intimacy of care and love in all other areas- I'd stay.
The visits to the sex worker, just like a good massage. A little bit of self pampering. Is that cheating? I wouldn't see it that way. (Gee, Dan has turned me) I'd Recognize my husband and I are not sexually compatible, yet compatible in all others areas of our shared life- just not with sex.
Cheating in the heart- much more damage done. Getting a good fuck, from some young stud. Perfectly fine. To me. In this situation. If they can't find a way to have good sex together.

Gnot; you do realize a child is a person. And under good conditions, is rather fun to hang out with- some of the time. And watch grow. And enjoy seeing them at play and learn. It softens the heart. It rips at the heart.
When you lose a child, as I have, it breaks your heart.
Glad I climbed the mountain, though. Glad I'm a mother.

You're right, Gnot.. Children take it out of you. And sex seems to go different.
That's because we raise our children in the west, as if it's an afterthought. Children need lots of people, so they grow strong and mentally healthy. For two people, esp poor people- very hard. For a single parent- hard hard.

@203 LavaGirl: Can I just say AMEN. Nothing kills a relationship (sex *or* other types of intimacy) like TV every night. Zones you out, disconnects you. Bad all around.

BIBFAULT . . . finding a good lover who can help you orgasm like mad is not easy. Most hetero- men are not great in bed . . . and finding one who has both anatomical understanding, sensitivity to your needs and awareness of your arousal may take time--and more than a few lovers--to find. It will be a process--maybe a long and difficult one. Whatever you decide, good luck and good love.

We know that the pattern in BIBFAULT's marriage is that she's unhappy, and her husband dismisses or otherwise makes light of her unhappiness. Then, whether for reasons unique to their relationship or for reasons having to do with their larger culture, they both blame her. This makes it easy to say that Mr. BIBFAULT is an asshole, and Mrs. BIBFAULT would be better off without him. (Good point about how many men would be willing to show her a good time in bed.) On the other hand, I still maintain that even if it's been decades of counseling (no evidence in the letter that it's Xian counseling, just my suspicion) and books, and her bringing up the possibility of light kink, it comes down to how BIBFAULT continues to back down awfully easily. She seems to suggest something mildly, then run back to her corner when Mr. says even the first thing to suggest that he's uncomfortable with it. Maybe that does make him an asshole, but maybe it makes him a victim of the same sex negative upbringing that she's had. The thing she hasn't tried, before betting her marriage, is making a fuss. She hasn't laid down the law and said THIS IS IMPORTANT, thrown a tantrum, asked him if he knows what's at state, and told him in no uncertain terms that their sex life has to get better with her or she's ready to leave. Then she starts with the vibrator, the porn/erotica, the kink, or anything else she wants to try.

BIBFAULT!! Get your husband to use the vibrator on you!!

Jesus, was that so hard?? I can't believe I had to register just to post this comment because it's so DUH!!!!!!

@ 221 and anyone else who is 'so DUH!!!!!' about incorporating the vibe into their regular sex - she has tried it. Go read the SL Letter of the Day: More BIBFAULT Fallout for more of her side of the story, PLEASE.

@222, yes, and here's the link:
http://www.thestranger.com/slog/archives…

on a different topic - the woman who nursed her husband while he was so sick -

It can be very hard once one has been the nurse, housekeeper, cook, cleaner, and probably wage earner (I assume he couldn't do any of that while he was sick) to then turn it off and be the sex partner... at least I found it hard, and found myself thinking "what, you want sex too? on top of all that?"

I think Dan's advice is good, but there may be more underlying the issue than just worrying about his health...

Simple answer: Why not incorporate the vibrator into your sex with the husband? Duh!

"But even with what I now know about my sexuality, we have been unable to figure out how to get me to orgasm when we are together."

Hundred bucks says he's never once gone down on her.

BIBFAULT, have you brought your vibe into your bedroom with your husband? Introducing your husband to how you know how you have learned that you can get off, allowing him to watch you get off, encouraging him to hold you, touch you, etc while you get off, could be a bridge towards showing him that your sexual fulfillment can be super sexy to see and be a part of, even if he's not inside you at the time.

"My wife, who is 35, had sex with a 25-year-old neighbor when she was barely 15 years old. [...] I think this is unhealthy. How do I get through to her?"

Translation: My wife doesn't feel as bad and guilty as I think she should about some sex she had 20 years ago. How do I make her feel more bad and guilty?

"If he won't spend half an hour pleasuring you on your terms because he loves you, well, give me his email address and I'll berate him for you."

I first quickly read this as, "If he won't spend half an hour pleasuring you on your terms because he loves you, well, give me his email address and I'll *liberate* him for you."

Which is completely different, but still somewhat awesome.

#228 - perfect!

Everyone else: PLEASE STOP POSTING suggesting that letter writer 1 bring her vibrator into the bedroom. They tried that, didn't work.

Ok, carry on.

"The thought that jumped at me. Was Burning Man. Take this woman there."

I heard this in Christopher Walken's voice.

"He's a great guy—funny, loyal, faithful, great dad to our kids"

That's not love. That's a merit badge.

And isn't he just great. Christopher Walken. Love that guy.

Here's what I wrote over at Slog's comments on this, where BIBFAULT wrote in:

I'd assumed that she had tried bringing the vibrator in--it just seemed like a logical step.

I can think of a whole lot of reasons that it doesn't work when her husband is there:
Perhaps she's too self-conscious; maybe he's too anxious for her to come right away and that kind of puts pressure on her; maybe she can only orgasm in a particular position with the vibrator, and he wants to see so she's in a different position for his sake and that doesn't work; maybe she can only orgasm if she's controlling the vibrator and they've tried having him hold it. I used to have a very difficult time coming even with my vibrator with someone else there with me. I need to be in a particular position (face down) and I need to be the one holding the vibrator. My partner can work me up to the point at which I need to bring the vibrator into play, and he can do a few things to me physically as I'm using it, but oftentimes, attempts to add to the sensation throw me out of the rhythm I need to come. Sometimes, having a partner say the wrong thing will pull me away from the right mental state. It's tricky.

It's gotten far easier for me to come as I've gotten older, and I can even come without the vibrator occasionally now, which I never thought I'd be able to say, but for many years, I was very limited as to what would do it, and many factors could throw it off.

Some men have felt like they're completely unnecessary to my orgasm because I have to control so much of the physical sensation. I don't feel that way at all. I consider them and their presence to be vital and the thoughts they put in my head to be crucial. If they say the right things, if I know that they're really turned on by what I'm doing, then they absolutely help me to get there. But even then, it can be a tricky and delicate balance: one boyfriend loved watching me come with it, but would eagerly try to help in ways that were so distracting I had to put a lot of effort into tuning him out at that point if I wanted to come.

Like BIBFAULT, I came to coming late into marriage and by myself.( I also wouldn't assume she wasn't trying to orgasm from time to time, just because she doesn't mention it in her letter.) My ex-husband and I were 16 years into our relationship (14 years into a marriage) when I first came-alone--with the right kind of vibrator. By that time, we had developed a routine and a lot of boredom had crept in and things were not necessarily conducive to the successful introduction of any kind of change in our sex life (and no, neither of us was a virgin when we married--I had actually been very promiscuous before we married--and no, we are neither of us Christians nor were either of us raised in sexually conservative communities). I think he was very used to just considering me to be frigid and was threatened by the vibrator, which I think he saw as a referendum on his sexual skills (it may have been, too, because they were pretty non-existent, but to be fair no one else had been able to get me off up till then and neither had I by myself with or without what is always hailed as the king of vibrators, the Hitachi Magic Wand), and by extension his manhood. He was always pretty insecure sexually and having me be able to come, but not through anything he could do was, I think, very hard for him, as it suggested that my inability to come had been due to his ineptitude and not my assumed "frigidity." Even after I attempted to incorporate the vibrator into our sex life, all that would happen is that he would stick with what by that time had become our very stale and unerotic routine and would come first, without us even having introduced it, then say, "oh, do you want to try and use your toy now?" in a way that made me always say no. He was clearly done and would have preferred to roll over and go to sleep and I felt far too self-conscious to just start using it when he was no longer even interested in sex and was trying to be polite and clearly going to wait for me to be done so he could get on with what he wanted to do, which was probably sleep.

If BIBFAULT and her husband have a sexual routine established over 30 years that has been unsatisfying for her, I can easily understand why simply bringing the vibrator she can come with when she's alone into their bed would not necessarily work.

I feel for her--my heart breaks for her--because though lots was different for us, in many ways, her situation and mine were similar and I understand completely her desire to experience great sex before she loses her chance forever. But I chose to cheat in order to find it (long story that many here are familiar with, so I won't repeat how hard I tried to not be a CPOS). And I found it--boy, did I ever find sexual fulfillment--and it kind of ruined my marriage and my life.
I fell in love with a married man--and he with me--and we broke off our affair because he wasn't willing to leave his wife. I had not gone into the affair thinking I would be open to leaving what I thought of as a marriage perfect in all ways but one, but that was what happened to me after 3 + years into the affair. So I had a massive heartbreak to deal with and couldn't even show it to anyone as I wasn't supposed to have any reason to be heartbroken. Then I decided I couldn't stay married to my husband of 22 years any more because I wanted to have a chance to find a more fulfilling legitimate sexual/romantic partnered relationship. I was 45 at the time (and about 100 times cuter than I am now, at 52 and overweight). And guess what?

I walked away from love and affection and companionship and financial stability. I have had none of that for the past 7 years. I doubt I will again. I have been able to be a total slut, which I like, and I've had some amazing sex and some very satisfying sexual relationships, which is great, but I don't know if I'd say it was worth losing all that I lost for it. And I broke up my kids' stable home and life with an intact set of parents. BIBFAULT's kids (if she has any) may be a lot older than mine were, so that may not be as much of an issue, but if they are not full adults (or even if they are) she may end up feeling guilty, as I do, for sacrificing their stability to her selfish sexual desires, especially if those desires aren't fulfilled.

Not all my post-marital sex has been good, either. And 30 years of a bad sex life may have left some residual. Just some things to complicate matters from my point of view and for BIBFAULT to consider.

@234; yeah. Funny .. It's called , God what is it called?

Oh nocute.. Hugs.

Thanks, Lava.

Tessiee @232 cute.

But I wonder if you've been in a relationship of more than fifteen years... There's a lot to cherish in "funny, loyal, faithful, great dad." If she can throw "kind" into the mix without stretching the truth, well, one could do a lot worse.

nocutename @234, thanks for telling your story here, and sending you good thoughts...

Thank you, EricaP. I agree that "funny, loyal, faithful, great dad" and "kind" are pretty important attributes. They may not be a substitute for "amazing lover," but they're not worthless, either.
Ultimately, only BIBFAULT can weigh those qualities (and a bunch of other factors besides) and decide if they are worth jettisoning if she leaves or jeopardizing if she cheats and either gets caught or cheats and that becomes that catalyst for her to leave the marriage, as it was for me.

And even then, she may only really know if she considers it to have been worth it many, many years from now, depending on how things work out in any number of ways.

I hesitated to write in initially because it's such a complicated situation and I don't think it has an easy solution and I knew it would require my writing a long and possibly boring personal history. I hope whatever BIBFAULT does she finds happiness, but some solutions seem to me to come with their own attendant problems.

@240 I've come to think that all solutions come with their own attendant problems.

@241: Undoubtedly.

These two, surely, have to go fuck another person each. Up front. Just to break this only fucked each other tag.
We go to cooking classes if we can't cook.

@343: What if she fucks her one other person and it's no better? That's a possibility. What if the only way she can come is by herself, with her vibrator?

And then what if her fucking that other person is something her husband can't get over, get past. What if it poisons their relationship?

Just because she can't come with her husband doesn't mean she'll be able to come with someone else. I've had sex with other men that I haven't been able to come with, either.

Besides, the husband doesn't want to fuck anyone else (well, he might want to, but he's not anxious to try it); he's content with the way things are working for him.

nocutename @234 -- Thank fucking Christ for a more nuanced understanding of the situation and why it's not as simple as "Guy's an asshole, show him the door". Sorry the insight had to cost you so much.

EricaP @241 -- "We never solve problems, we just trade them in for new ones."

Is it just an orgasm she's after, though? I sense it's the whole bedroom experience that is dreary.

@247: I don't know. But I can imagine that there would be a lot of expectations of that next, new "bedroom experience," and a lot of pressure, whether he knows it or not, on that new lover's shoulders.

I'm not suggesting lovers. I'm suggesting sex workers . For both of them. It'll change both of them.

@249: Hmmm . . . maybe. Maybe a solo session or two, followed by a joint session or two. That's a pretty good idea---if he goes for it. My ex wouldn't agree to try my suggestion to go to a sex club . . .

LB; I never thought this guy was an asshole. Did cross my mind though, how he would have played it, these last 30 yrs- if he had been the one not to have an orgasm.
I mean. The literatures out there. Little button, in the woman's crutch-
You know. A tongue, a finger.. We don't know, but did this guy really even try?
And if he did try, did he enjoy it?

"Tessiee @232 cute.

"But I wonder if you've been in a relationship of more than fifteen years... "

Yeah, I have -- and not to overshare, but it pretty much led directly to the exact same crossroads, which was not pleasant for anyone involved. "Nice person with many positive qualities", "deserves to be loved", and "I could do a lot worse", are not to be discounted as unimportant, but they are also not quite the same as, "I love this person".

I know a lot of nice people with many positive qualities. At the moment, I don't love any of them, except platonically, and I've learned not to do a lot of guilt-ridden hand-wringing over why not. For the record, I am also a nice person with many positive qualities, and I've learned to accept that, as fabulous as I am, and as difficult it is for me to believe, not everyone who meets me falls in love with me. Fortunately or unfortunately, love is not a meritocracy.

That having been said, positive qualities may more than compensate for a lack of excitement in a relationship for *some* people and *some* relationships, which is fine. If that were the case here, I don't think LW1's letter would have sounded quite so anguished.

@118 You really don't know? Wow, must be great under that rock, I am seriously jealous. No, Fifty Shades has nothing to do with feminism. Even (actually, especially) sex-positive kinky feminists loathe the book because it portrays a textbook abusive relationship as okay and hot because a magic kink-wand is waved over it. It portrays a previously completely sexless virgin *enduring* sex she doesn't want (aka rape) and kink she actively dislikes (she likes vanilla sex generally, but she doesn't consent to all of it that occurs) hoping to earn a relationship thereby. So...not feminist, nope.

---
Only @137 has, that I've noted, gotten at something I think is worth adding to the general "grrr religion ruins women's sexuality" discussion here: mainstream culture doesn't encourage girls and young women to discover themselves and their pleasure either. Religion may be actively, destructively stomping on the delicate flower, but it's not like secular America is watering and encouraging it.

Sex ed in my liberal public school education talked about male masturbation a lot, but never female. It wasn't something that even existed. Even after I'd figured it out as a teenager, it wasn't something girls were expected to do in my world -- which was a secular, liberal one. And to the extent I picked up anything at all about it, it was a sort of hippie notion that you definitely didn't need a vibrator, that wasn't natural. (I didn't need one, and you learn a lot of great stuff without one, but finally buying one as an adult was great -- once I got over the shame.)

Even in a secular, liberal upbringing in America (and I was born in the 80s, just barely) you learn that women have sex for men, that female desire is less important, powerful, etc.
I had a huge amount of trouble making trouble in an otherwise good marriage over my sexual nonfulfillment (which was about frequency, not quality, although I now am also getting much more amazing sex), and I am a feminist with no kids to worry about. Guilt and shame run deep through the whole culture, not just the obvious bible-thumping parts.

@252 "Love is not a meritocracy." Brilliantly true!

Well Cat. The book of course, is a load of crock. Bad, bad writing. Don't even know the story line.
The film, looks interesting.
Someone's just gotta send me the updated Feminist bible.
Down Under here, in the boon docks- Jesus. Just nothing gets thru.

@256: My guess is that the vast majority of women have not read any BDSM erotica or thought about it before. If you've never had any kind of steak and you've been living on porridge, ground chuck would taste pretty good . . . until someone introduced you to a New York Strip or a Filet Mignon.

Also, some people--not only women--like crappily-written stuff.

Women liking a book doesn't make it a feminist book. Remember your old logic proofs?

Ms Cute - Thank you for providing a strong example of what I meant by standing. Were my view of the situation markedly different from yours, I'd give yours a great deal more weight. If this were Downton Abbey, you would be Edith.

Mr. Ven: I didn't read a lot of these. What did you say about standing? How is your view of the situation different? Can you point me to the numbers of your posts you're referencing?

Also, Edith? Well, I guess I'm glad I'm still alive. But it's really the Dowager I'd like to be. Or maybe Mrs. Patmore . . . she seems generally happy. Although I stopped watching halfway through season 3. I'd rather just watch Gosford Park again and again.

Oh hey Hunter, it's great. Love living here. Trees and the ocean. You should come visit sometime- you know, if you're ever down this way, passing by the gigantic oceans that surround this crazy country. Sweet Man.
Big action happening with dick face PM, Abbott. Queensland election last week, the conservatives hit hard. Our PM, Tony moron Abbott, behaving like a 50s man. He's about to go down.


Cat; this having my Feminism defined for me, really gets my back up. Obviously.
Like having, mother or wife defined. Prescriptions from the outside.
Leading from my centre, from my own energy, is a big part of Feminism for me.
Being my own Woman. And encouraging other Women to be the same.
And if that means going to see 50 shades, and enjoying the erotic content. Then that's what'll happen.
I'll do a review up here when I do. Cause I know all The Real Feminists, won't be touching it with a ten foot whip.

@262: Yes, but it's a shame that the introduction didn't come via a better-written book with a different message.

Ah well: to each her own.

If more women are getting off, if more people are discovering something that turns their cranks, if more couples are spicing up their marriages because of it, then poorly-written as it may be, and the dubiousness of the ultimate message aside, I consider it to perform something of a public service.

@Lavagirl -- Whoops! Your response makes me think you think I am defending the husband. Not so. I hope that's not the impression I gave--I may have expressed myself badly. I don't want to flip through the comments again, but on a quick read-through it seemed there were a lot of exasperatingly one-dimensional assumptions about the marriage and the husband, leading to easy DTMFA-type conclusions.

BIBFAULT is in a complicated situation that took thirty years to build, and has conflicting needs and loyalties to resolve, and responsibilities that aren't so easily shrugged off. I appreciate nocute explaining in detail how that kind of situation plays out. If DTMFA were the obvious solution, I think the LW would have figured that out by now.

@252, thanks for explaining that you were speaking from experience; I apologize for my condescending tone.

LB; didn't assume anything re your position.
And yes. Complex situation.
Still, has this man ever found his wife's body a delight? Some of the boys talk of having women, just lie back and think of England( or Wales, or France maybe).. And that sounds sad. Especially if it happens all the time.
Is this husband a bit like that. No strong arousal for a woman's sex?
Scared maybe. Scared of unleashing his wife's fat pussy.

Interesting read this week.... both the letters and all the comments. For my part...i will do anything asked of me if it gets her off.... (and yes... i have said i will also smirk in certain circumstances... i will STILL do all that is asked of me....because i want her to want me.... and i want her to feel free and totally safe with me....because THAT is intimacy to me...and THAT is what i am really wanting in the bedroom from my partner.)

Its a shame we dont have a way to get these questions answered for ourselves in ways that don't destroy what we have already built in our lives. That we might fuck 10 people on the side..without those people remembering it.... seeing our spouses...knowing anything about us... just ANSWER the question for LW1... IS SHE ACTUALLY MISSING OUT? or does she just think she is...because our oversexed society and general lack of truthfulness about our own libidos has her convinced that she is missing out on the one true thing that makes life worth living..... I am just thinking out loud...no real point here... I just feel bad for her... not knowing what to do next is at times a horrible feeling... trying to convince yourself that you are trapped when you dont really know if you are.... another horrible feeling. Her husband might be great, might not be... he might even be good in bed but has so totally adjusted to her that he doesnt even realize he isnt trying anymore...(gasp!)....

@234 nocute... your post brought tears to my eyes. thank you for sharing. It hits close to home

@261: I understand, I hate having my roles defined for me too. But certain things, feminism included, do risk having all meaning eroded away by individual definitions. Far-right politicians, in the US, sometimes tell us they are feminists because they are female, which is kind of a laugh when their actual political agenda is anti-woman across the board. Some sorts of definition are necessary.

Is kinky erotica feminist? Probably depends on the individual piece of kinky erotica. I've seen some pretty clearly agenda-driven erotica. But mostly, probably, it's feminism-neutral. You can be a feminist and like something without that thing being feminist as a result. I like some pretty gorgeous music with shitty anti-woman lyrics sung by people who have shitty anti-woman behavior in their past. Liking it doesn't make it feminist. Not everything we choose to do or consume is feminist because a woman is choosing it, and certainly certainly not because a woman is aroused by it. As comes up in Savage Love so often, people aren't in charge of what they're aroused by.

There isn't a feminist bible, as you know: feminists bicker a lot, there are different and often conflicting movements within feminism, and certain topics are particularly divisive. I suppose it's possible there's some in-depth analysis by which someone could claim to find a feminist subtext in 50SoG, but all the reviews and analyses I've seen by feminists have been vicious (and hilarious, hence my reading them) takedowns. Maybe I generalized a bit much. Doesn't mean I'm going to send you a list of dogma to replace your opinions.

That's all the book. The movie isn't out yet, so the only takedowns I've seen have been of the trailer, and they've been about, for instance, the quality of the bondage knots. I wouldn't be surprised if they've made the guy much less abusive and stalkery for th e big screen to make him more appealling when people are no longer skimming for the parts they like.

---
@256 On a language level, because they are American women, and we are apparently a horribly illiterate nation that doesn't discriminate by quality at all. See Dan Brown, popularity of.

On a sex level, yeah, a lot of women have never been exposed to kink before. And the non-con aspect is helpful for a lot of people because they are innocent of kink and maybe a little scared of it, so it being 'inflicted' on the female character means they can enjoy it without actually admitting they want it: that's always the double-bind of the rape fantasy -- the fantasist is in total control but pretending they aren't responsible. And 50SoG is rape fantasy, or some large percent rape fantasy, at least the first book. I and many other feminist kinksters would argue it would be less harmful if it were just rape fantasy: the harmful part is where it claims rape is kink (there is a lot of talk about getting consent and almost zero getting consent) and stalking is romantic (this is pretty common, sadly, but this book is worse than most. She is terrified he will follow her, even across the country when she goes to visit her mom explicitly to get space, and he does, and somehow despite her fear, we are supposed to believe this is romantic.)

On another level, it's a massive wish fulfillment fantasy of another kind: wealthy dude lavishing girl with presents. Hell, she even gets fit and thin using someone else's will! It's like she won the lottery! On that level, if you ignore all the creepy shit. There is explicitly supposed to be nothing special about the character, and yet a rich powerful guy is obsessed with her and changes her entire life blah blah blah.

On yet another level: it's erotica for women that's been mainstreamed. See all that shit about how women aren't encouraged to be sexual, above? Even if they read it 'as a joke' or 'because my best friend MADE ME' or whatever, these women got to read porn for women for the first time ever, and were told it was okay, everyone was doing it. Maybe it isn't the perfect porn for that individual reader if her secret desires were known to herself, but she's never seen any before. I expect a lot of boys jerk off to stuff that wouldn't have been their first choice as porn-wise adults, either -- because it's the first porn they've ever seen, and their naive boners haven't gotten choosy yet.

Ms Cute - You haven't missed much. Or would Gosford Park have just imploded had it been strung into a series? DA feels too long, the Borgias feels too short, and I am still waiting for a series built around Catherine de Medici.

The Dowager Countess I feel obliged to reserve for Ms Hopkins. Just be thankful I didn't cast you as Mary or Mr Bates - both were considered. I have cast perhaps a dozen roles, maybe more - I have not written them all out.

hmmmm.... my post is strangely missing much text...

I was also wondering out loud... is she transferring midlife angst into the bedroom? Did she give up a career to raise kids for her husband? Is she convinced she is a frumpy housewife? rejecting most of her husband's advances because she already knows how he will be in bed? Did a random stranger call her sexy? and her husband never does? or he does use words like sexy...but she thinks he is lying to make her feel good?

Most of the assumptions in the comments this week seem to center on two ideas...1 is using the vibrator... the other is that her husband is a selfish and horrible lover.... but as anyone who has been in a long term relationship that has at times seemed doomed or totally predictable knows... it is NEVER so simple. Sometimes the hardest thing to do in life is get out of your own head....get out of your own way... and it is doubly hard when your identity is intertwined with another human being

ChairmanOfTheBored: I think you've summarized it pretty perfectly.

Here's a quote from Ranier Maria Rilke that has helped me get through those times:

“Have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves ... Don't search for the answers, which could not be given to you now, because you would not be able to live them. And the point is to live everything. Live the questions now. Perhaps, then, someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer.”

Jesus Cat; I'll have to come back to your words later, but , like, who cares who calls themselves a Feminist. The more the word is said, the more the hearer has to stop and wonder, hey what you on about.
Saturday morning here, heading out.

Ms Cute in continuation - My bit about standing was part of my conversation with Mr Ricardo earlier in this thread. I misinterpreted a post of his as meaning that his mother and sisters had policed his gender thoughts, but was only averse to being influenced by someone with standing when it's one-sided.

@234 nocutename: Thank you and bless you for sharing your story.

My heart goes out to BIBFAULT, too, for enduring a sexually unsatisfying marriage of 30 years.

My abusive marriage of 9 years seems to pale greatly by comparison. I can't imagine being unhappily married for three decades.

@243 Lava - best solution possible. He's already stated he'll never allow it.

@267 It wasn't a dildo, it was a vibe, he wouldn't allow it, and she's required to service him as usual.

Stepped up her game? For more lousy sex? Why the hell would you? She's already probably having sex with him whenever he asks regardless of whether she wants to or not, it's her wifely duty. Her sex drive is through the roof (which by the way is a highly visible condition), and he can't be bothered/wants her to stop.

@252 You are right about LW1's clear anguish. She never knew what she was missing before, now she does. Instead of just feeling fundamentally broken her whole life and a failure in bed, a disappointment to her husband, so that she probably could accept the lack of pleasure as her rightful punishment, she now knows better. Of course it's killing her.

@275 Hunter, seriously. Go pound it out in one of your clueless mistresses. You seem to be in need.

gnot, I don’t get where you see that he wouldn’t have it. She says “We have been unable to figure out how to get me to orgasm when we are together.” Maybe you’re a fly on the wall and know she’s lying, but she’s saying he’s in this with her.

Sounds nice, Hunter.. While slow dancing , listening to The Band
singing "Out of The Blue."

@215
No maternity or paternity leave, pay, or subsidy. Almost always no childcare at the workplace. Daycare for 1 child for 1 hour costs more than the minimum wage, if you can even find daycare for an infant, which costs more anyhow. $1500-$2000/month per non-infant kid is about normal around here. No legal protection for pregnant women re: being fired for being pregnant. No anti-hiring discrimination laws re: pregnant women looking for jobs (but I'm sure it makes no difference in places where it is though). No legally mandated paid vacation or sick time (family medical leave does exist by federal law but nothing really prevents them from firing you for taking it and they do). Workplaces are legally required to provide a place for you to pump breastmilk that is not in the bathroom, but that's a tad bit new and often it means an old supply closet with a chair stuck in it. Employers are not legally allowed to ask if you have kids during the hiring process but they definitely do - your silence or objection is enough information for them. Jobs rarely have flex time. Public school starts after most workdays begin and ends before most workdays end. Transportation to school can be spotty depending on location. Health insurance costs go through the roof when you have kids (I used to pay $600/month for mine through an employer with lousy coverage - no kids, early 20's, no health problems. And that's just the premium). Free/cheap health insurance for the poor only effectively in place in liberal states at this point, dental sometimes included, vision never.

Without insurance, if above the poverty line, birth costs between $4,000 and $45,000 for a normal no complications vaginal delivery.

"In 2011, 62% of women who had health insurance did not have maternity/delivery coverage. " http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/01/health…

I hope Obamacare fixed that. It used to be if you got pregnant and didn't have health insurance (or seperate pregnancy/birth coverage purchased before you got pregant), you couldn't buy any anymore (please keep in mind that birth control and abortion are/were rarely covered at all). The insurance companies didn't (don't?) allow pregnant women to enroll in health insurance. Of any kind. The New York Times says this was still true as of summer 2013, which is post-Obamacare, because pregnancy is a pre-existing condition so no insurance for you dearie. Pretty sure Obamacare was supposed to fix that (used to be, if you were born sick, or if you got really sick and your insurance company dropped you, or if you were unemployed and lost your insurance for more than a little while, or whatever, no insurance company would ever cover you again).

So, not great. I do not know how single moms make it. There is welfare money if you are poor, but it's not enough to live on and you can only get it for 5 years of your entire life. I think you have to be actively jobseeking during that time as well, risk being if you don't take the job they cut you off. Foodstamps offer help with food specifically but it's still not enough for a family at the maximum amount. There is emergency rent assistance, 1x only, which I think is $400 (not enough for 1 months rent, much less first/last/security) but I do know that in my state, during the summer, they hand out tents to women with children for their housing. They live in vacant lots. During the winter they will put some up in cheap hotels, but these are fairly dangerous places to be. There are homeless shelters, but women generally can't go to them safely due to the risk of sexual attack. And definitely kids can't. Might be better in a city where they'd have gender segregated shelters, but that's not possible around here. I live in one of the most generous and liberal states in the country. People move here because our benefits are so good, and that's how bleak it is.

@232 Correct. It's really a fairly low bar to set. Why would anyone ever marry a guy in the first place if he wasn't all those things?

@281 Read the follow-up letter the letter writer wrote wrote. EricaP and others had some guesses as to what she vaguely meant in the below it, but the one thing we are sure she has done is have the vibrator in some sort of helpful location during sex with her husband.

@281 I took that as a charitable use of the word "we".

@234: Nocute, thank you for sharing your story. Often it's a reader with a similar story that sheds so much more light on the OP's situation than their letter.

@256: You're asking the wrong question. The question should be: "Why is one book simultaneously very popular among one group of women, and so thoroughly reviled by other women?"

I haven't read it, because nearly everyone I know who has read it has said it is badly written and gives a skewed view of BDSM relationships. Also, I am not a submissive so I don't think that, even if it were well written, it would appeal to me. So I am happy to cede to the opinions of the people I respect.

My guess is that the other subset of women like it because there is not much submissive, hetero BDSM erotica out there, so they eagerly gobble up what they can get.

Ooh, I wanna be the Dowager! "Principles are a bit like prayers. Noble, of course, but awkward at a party."

Ms Ods - You can have Gwen, which I was going to give the departed Ms Eirene. As this all began in a recent thread when I claimed Isobel, Violet had to go to somebody with whom I could do all those publicity interviews. If I knew you better, I suspect you might get Alfred.

I'll take Gwen for the time being. I approve of typewriters. The real question is, is anyone here Mr. Carson?

Having just caught up on the previous thread, I think we can put Choreplay and Try The Vibrator Together on a list that I haven't quite determined what to call.

Addendum to Ms Cute - I also considered Shrimpy for you, but tossed that when I cast Susan (NPFG - No Prize For Guessing).

Ms Ods - I'm inclined to give Mr Carson to another of our former posters, Mr Ank, whose great passion was learning languages, Latvian in particular (to which the Russian-born Mrs Ank reportedly took excessive exception). He had the right sort of manner for Carson, and had to be managed, but the drawback is that there isn't anyone here now or recently to cast as Mary who would have the advantage of fitting well with him.

Mr. Ven: Your casting decisions are the only possible enticements for me to consider watching Downton again. Shrimpy? Gwen? I'm very happy to have been given Edith, who is at least a character I know. Susan?--is Susan a Downton character or someone else.

Btw, in my mind, you are now Lord Merlin . . . or possibly Davey Warbeck.

Wow, a quick glance through the comments and everyone thinks Bibfault is the "good person" - she should withhold, she should cheat, she should leave her husband. How wrong you all are! Bibfault has focused on looking outside the marriage instead of inside - it echoes what I did to my partner. We got married, sex quality dropped dramatically due to new jobs and stresses, and instead of focusing on my partner - communicating my needs completely and truthfully, being honest about what was missing, and what I needed to be happy - I fantasized that a new partner would provide better sex. After an affair, a million apologies and regrets, and months of recovery, I finally started being honest about what I needed, what I felt was missing, and how my partner could help meet my needs (hard conversations). Now, we have phenomenal, regular sex (a couple years later, with harder jobs and a 6-month old). Cheating is the easy way out - It takes no work to look outside and take the path of least resistance to wrecking her marriage, her husband's life and probably unsettling/unstabilizing her children. It takes a lot of work to spend the TIME (not expecting immediate results), to fully and truthfully tell someone what you need in a positive, loving, non-nagging way. If Bibfault cannot honestly say that she has fully disclosed her needs, talked and brainstormed with her husband about how they can meet those needs, been open to his thoughts and feelings, and been patient enough to give it time and support the relationship anyway, then she is a wimp. Marriage isn't easy, conversations about unmet needs are really hard, and being open and willing to be happy with your partner is not always easy. But if you aren't willing to work extremely hard at fixing it, then it is your fault for walking away, not your partner's. And for the record, unless you have done those things, and he has continued to suck or demean you, then you are a total asshole. Print this one, Dan, because you are wrong, too! Sometimes marriages are worth fighting for, vows should mean something, and the easy and selfish way out is not always the right one.

@288 I suspect that's not the case -- I haven't actually bought a lot, as I haven't gotten heavily into written erotica, but I see bunches on the shelves. Of woman-friendly sex shops, that is! And I know there's masses of erotica in e-book form, some of which is bound to be submissive-woman hetero stories because that is a really popular role.

I think you're damn right there's 'not much submissive, hetero BDSM erotica out there' -- out there in the 'normal mainstream' world where it's available without going to a sex shop or googling for lady-porn: without admitting to yourself that you're doing anything 'pervy' or out of the ordinary that loads of other women aren't doing. I could be wrong, but that's my take.

Badger4Savage @296,

We can’t know if BIBFAULT is ‘the good person.’ We know she has a problem that good people can gave, that's all.

It’s highly unlikely that after 30 years BIBFAULT is unaware of the work marriage requires. She’s probably old enough to be your mom.

You have a point that it’s possible BIBFAULT has been stuffing it — everything — for 30 years and that there’s a certain amount of passive-aggressive shit that needs to be unlearned. Maybe a lot of it. Fine. Now what?

After 30 years they have some really entrenched patterns and he’s apparently satisfied with them. She needs to be able to make this his problem. She needs to be willing to raise a fuss, to have a tantrum, and to walk out if he isn’t collaborating. That doesn’t mean that she has to walk out but they both need to really understand that she has that option. Otherwise she is the only one with anything to lose.

If he is so unable to see her as a sexual being that he is willing to lose his marriage over this, they can shake hands and move on. The kids are grown. The marriage is not an independent entity that is more important than either of them.

If she has her tantrum and he accepts that bad sex is his problem too then they have something to work with. It sounds like this is the step they are at, actually — she describes him as actively participating. But there is no guarantee that the sex will ever be good no matter how much work they both put into it, so they both need to think about what they want and need, how long they are going to work at making sex good before deciding they’ve gotten as far as they’re ever going to go, and what to do if it isn’t good enough.

It’s back to the old problem: if sex isn’t important enough to care about within a marriage, then why is extramarital sex important enough to be destabilizing? Maybe she hasn’t been hollering enough — we don’t know. But maybe he thinks the problem is that she’s complaining and that she could fix the problem by shutting up. We don’t know that either. What we do know is that if they are going to renegotiate a marriage or leave it, now is the perfect time.

Venn, I'm in P@P , not this Downton abbey sideshow.
And of course, I'm Lizzie.

With a sprinkling of Lydia.

@292 All you need is enthusiasm and deep interest in the pleasure of your partner and yourself. Men tend to skimp on the pleasure of your partner thing. So yes, this woman is going to be excellent in bed. She's into being kinky too - her sexual opportunities will be boundless, even at 50. Even if she's 200+ pounds and conventionally unattractive.

Yeah, she said everything was fine until the wedding night. And she has a totally normal (currently off the charts) sex drive. Stronger than his. At 50. I'm sure it was even stronger at 18.

When people are poor, often someone has to stay with the kids because day care is far more expensive than their salary could possibly be. Perhaps you only know middling rich to rich people. Househusbands are very common where I am. Since men of the working class are less and less able to make a higher income than the women they are married to, this will likely become more and more common among this income range until stay at home dads dominate. And as it becomes more and more acceptable for men to actually be engaged in the raising of their children, and to want, from childhood, to be dads, just like girls are socialized to want to be moms from childhood, you'll see more upper income range men choosing it too if they can financially hack it. Women have no greater inherent skill with kids than men do, nor, after the initial don't leave the infant on the mountainside hormone pulse, any greater desire for it.

"We have definitely tried the vibrator together" - how exactly does one try a vibrator if it isn't in contact with ones genitals?

She's offering whatever his kink might be. You think she's never sucked cock? Her sex drive is through the roof. You ever met a super super turned on woman who wouldn't suck a cock? Shit, when in heat it's an effort not to fuck everything and everyone I see. I'm sure as a guy you can relate.

She's being overly kind to this guy, and overly harsh on herself. "We tried it" - well you know she was the super enthusiastic and determined one, and clearly spectacularly invested in dancing around her husbands emotional hangups with delicacy, so I'm pretty sure it wasn't failure on her end. Hubby let her down yet again. Which is mindbogglingly stupid, for the record. There is a way to handle complete panic attack by man in presence of vibrator that doesn't end in the lady considering the experience a failure. Even if he was outright sobbing there is a way to recover that experience as a win - if he had the right attitude. She's resigning herself to lousy sex for the rest of her life because he apparently won't let her use a vibe when he's around - and she's willing to accept that. Let that sink in. Would you do the same? That is complete and total absolute bullshit. She's also supposed to remain mum on the idea of sexual pleasure for girls as regards her children. Batshit fucking insane. The husband isn't even religious.

Ms Cute - Gwen was Anna's fellow housemaid who became a secretary; Shrimpy and Susan are Rose's parents, who had to sell their Scottish castle (Shrimpy has just come back from India, determined to divorce). They were in the third season, and Susan was played by Phoebe Nicholls (you'll recall my high estimation of Cordelia Flyte).

There was a scene in the fourth season when, before a dinner party, Tom, Mary and Isobel all happened to visit the nursery. Isobel led a round of reminiscences about their late spouses when they were all on the brink of matrimony or newly in love, concluding with a bright, "Well, aren't we the lucky ones!" that I could have echoed myself.

And now, having fulfilled my winter's quota of real feelings, it's back to recasting Mrs Patmore, as I moved my original choice.

@292 Since you are so strongly in support of the husband in this, perhaps you can explain what you feel his thinking to be? Because I for one am mystified.

Ms Lave - Funny crossed posts - you were my original choice for Mrs Patmore whom I moved to Shrimpy now that he's determined to get a divorce.

Had I known you forty years ago, I might well have cast you as Elizabeth or Lydia in P&P, but your matronly status and persistence in maintaining your own way (especially in one particular recent thread which need not be specified if one is trying to be kind) are steering you inexorably towards Lady Catherine de Bourgh. At least that's a better role than Mrs Bennet or Lady Lucas.

"everyone is a person and should be treated equally regardless, which does mean everyone does have to stick up for the underdogs,"

Yeah, for example, feminists are out campaigning for increased custody for men in divorce cases because it does tend to trend more heavily in the wife's direction even in cases when the kids have had equal participation in parenting and that's unfair. In this case, the men are the underdogs. Since the issue is gender related and revolves around the idea that women are somehow better suited by dint of pussy ownership to care for children, it is a feminist issue. Another problem is how men are currently unable to easily opt out of caring for kids they don't want to have. This is a huge problem. They used to be able to legally just book it, but Reagan era moved the cost of caring for poor single moms/kids from the state/feds to the father, whether he wanted to be in the picture or not. This is also a feminist issue where the guy is the underdog.

Hunter @305 con't

Another one - the severe lack of birth control options for men, and a lack of funding for research on said birth control options. Another feminist issue.

@301 "Men tend to skimp on the pleasure of your partner thing. "

Common example - men tend to stop having sex once they orgasm, or at least really really ramp down the intensity, if the woman has already orgasmed once or many times already. Not cool.

One fix for the above problem is to arrange for the guy to watch two bi/lesbian women in person. Most guys have never seen this. They will need some emotional aftercare afterwards, it tends to devastate and humiliate them. A FFM threesome can be similar, just because the guy tends to be pretty useless, no way in hell he can possibly keep up, poor thing. Those are easier to arrange of course, you just have to make sure the women know you don't need them to be polite. A lot of the time we'll just stop and pretend we're done so as not to upset you.

You should watch that Louis CK bit - has that ever happened to you? Because that's 100% the case.

No Venn; not joining that cast.
P@P .. Only gig I'm auditioning for.

Ms Lava - As much as it pains me to remove such a shining example of divorce, I shall do so.

Enjoyed our dance last night , Hunter.
And this time Venn, Lydia isn't joining me at the shoot.

Gnot, I'm not ignoring your info to me, I want to look at it.
Sunny Sunday morning here. Put on my focus mind later.

@ 307, humiliating and/or devastating a man into being a better sex partner by making him watch a couple of lesbians going at it sounds like a catastrophically bad idea.

And I don't think it's necessarily not cool for a man to stop sex after his orgasm or a sign of skimping on pleasure. My husband's usually asleep within about 90 seconds of coming, but he doesn't come until I'm well and truly satisfied. It works well for us and I've never felt short-changed.

BIBFAULT should introduce the vibrator into the lovemaking with her husband.

gnot @301 ‘Men tend to skimp on the pleasure of your partner thing.’

Bad lovers skimp on the pleasure of their partner thing and they need to be running the fuck themselves. Good ones don’t skimp and they don’t argue with a partner who wants to drive.

I’ve had both types of lover in both male and female packaging. I haventn noticed any trend either way.

Hunter78 @ 315 ' He gave her a good home and children'. That is utterly your own fiction. There's nothing in this letter about the home or children.

Me and my husband have a home and children but my husband didn't give either of these to me, we created our life with the home and children in it together as partners.

@Alison: If I understand, you’re undergoing a prolonged small-children phase?

Underwent, but you'd have to dig deep into the slog archives for that phase. Of course, it's the large-children phase where the provider's responsibilities really kick in.

Really, I was just lamenting the cruel trick of nature that caused the LW to lose sexual interest in her husband because he got sick, and brooding over the broader implications.

Got to agree with Busy, Hunter.
A man doesn't give a woman children.
He gives a woman sperm. She and nature do the rest..