Venn@226; I don't know, sometimes I'd like to give you a cuddle. Sometimes though, you just too damn clever.
Yes, a child demanding Breast at a dinner party, is a bit weird.
My boy, the one I fed till he was four. I reckoned, since I was such an older Mother for this boy, I had to put in my efforts strongly, at the beginning of his life. In case I wasn't there, as he headed towards adulthood.
That boy now, is emotionally very stable, despite the death of his oldest half- brother. Despite his father, behaving like a total total git from this boy's 13th birthday on.
I'm pretty sure, the long period of Breast feeding I gave him, has contributed greatly to his emotional strength. And his physical health.
Hoooooboy. Everyone please forgive Auntie Griz for being this late into the game, and maybe a little off-topic again. But all of you as well as Dan the Man know what a nut I am!
Breasts? Good news--although one is bigger than the other---I had an encouraging mammogram---all good--"See you next year". Yay!
Wish me luck on my grad school application. With the help of a wonderful fellow musician friend, my emailing a reformatted pdf version of my BA transcript was successfully emailed to the grad admissions office.
Now why do I need red wine and more of a 28 year old Brad Pitt (as J.D. from "Thelma & Louise")--AND Judd Nelson's John Bender (from "The Breakfast Club") again all of a sudden?
I'm a bad girl wannabe....?
Hey, auntie grizelda ! I wish you more luck than I had this past week with my lover research.
Lavagirl : I second the hugs for vennominon.
Vennominon : are you still into chess and winning tournaments ? I admit a partiality for clever children over more 'normal' ones - I relate more.
Hey Grizelda, sounding good. Your applications. Here's hoping for you. Got the new Bjorg CD, while I was in Brisbane yesterday. Not been into her stuff before, just read some great reviews bout her latest one. And highly recommended by a well trusted friend.
What about Magic Mike, for a bit of toy boy watching? Great great dancing, too. That Tatum Channing. Special qualities there.
Hear there's a new one coming out. More dancing in the next one.
Bad Girl Wannabe?
Good to hear, my girl.
@Chairman
Based over more than a year of observation of Hunter, he once was a honest troll, just good enough to be totally ignored, and then he humanized himself somehow. As of today there are frequent glimpses of Hunter the human, but whenever a subject lends itself to trolling he can't resist it for too long. Which is a shame, as Hunter the human is a lot more fascinating but admittedly gets him less reactions than his offensive posts.
Grizelda, I know changing boys names around probably a way objectifying thing to do.
Just like Tatum better than Channing.
Call me imperfect. I'll handle it.
@225: Love the park service analogy. That's excellent.
I agree the point is that adults should be able to stop themselves. I do know one or two cases where I didn't think the adult was that far out of line, but they're rare (and usually with "adults" pretty close to the consent line themselves, but just over). More often I think the adult-in-question sounds a proper creeper. But for me, the question isn't "should we let the adults get away with it" but "how far do we want to go to tell a child they've been hurt when they don't think they have?" Isn't that making it worse for them?
Hunter,
Am I mistaken in thinking that your choice of Sis for me means you see me as something like a sister ?
I think, getting a sex-positive female teacher to talk to her could have done some good. When teenagers push the limits like this, what they most want is be noticed, and be shown they matter.
Ciods - Who is suggesting telling statutory "victims" how to feel? Being a victim (of circumstance, of a shithead) doesn't mean you have to act victimized for life. The American Victim is not a strict code of conduct or moral judgement. Having bad shit happen to you doesn't mean shit about how you're "supposed" to feel.
Hun - I think you should have acted disapproving, ideally. Since you didn't manage to convey disapproval well enough to nip the behavior in the bud, then yes, reporting inappropriate attire would have helped the child. What hurt the child was your approval, your enjoyment. You taught her it was ok for a child to pursue an adult, perhaps she even thought adults were safer to hit on after taking your class. The next adult who returns her attention with a warm smile may not feel so restrained from saying yes. Pubescing children have complex sexual fantasies
Pubescing children want to fuck anything that moves and make really stupid decisions to attempt that "safely". Has Justin Biber yet been dethroned as prince in the minds of millions of girly sub-teens and teens?
I don't understand what you're trying to say. I think it would be sad if Justin Beiber's audience were completely middle aged women.
@146 Ciods it also seems to me cruel to make sex illegal for a good five years longer than many people's bodies have been telling them it's go time
It's never been illegal for minors to have sex with each other.
Ms Sissou - I run the occasional tournament now, being mainly more involved in bridge as an adult.
Ms Lava - The issue is all Holmes/Sun/Earth to me; I am not disposed to quarrel with any approach that worked. Not usually being a fan of the visuals of that general part of the body for any gender or sex, I just take comfort in at least not being hypocritical on the issue.
> Who is suggesting telling statutory "victims" how to feel?
In my mind, if the incident/affair/whatever it is comes out and there is a scandal, arrest, trial, prosecution, or any subset thereof, that's a huge amount of data telling the child that they should feel victimized, that something horrible happened to them, and that we all agree they should be traumatized. The reaction of the system is telling them very clearly how to feel.
Sometimes that's correct; sometimes it's not. I'm not saying I have a good algorithm for differentiating the cases. But in the case of the 14-year-old in Montana, for instance, I personally believe that her suicide was a result of the trauma inflicted by the intense negative reaction of the outside world, *not* by the relationship. So did we do her a service by trying to protect her after the fact, or not?
>It's never been illegal for minors to have sex with each other.
That's not my impression. It certainly wasn't true when I was 17, which admittedly was a while ago. Perhaps it's changed since then. I know many states have relatively new "Romeo and Juliet" laws. But I don't think it's universal yet. I also believe that for many states, the Romeo and Juliet laws don't apply to SS couples, which is obviously problematic. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleased.
When I was 17 and dating a 24-year-old, there was a very publicized case in California of a 16-year-old who was in a relationship with a 20-year-old, and she got pregnant. The state prosecuted him for statutory rape, although she did not want them to, and even though both sets of parents knew about the relationship and approved, and no one wanted charges pressed. The state did it anyway. It scared the shit out of me and my boyfriend.
Ciods - I'm still not sure what you are talking about with victimization. It's a loaded word in America so I'm going to talk about your relationship if that's ok. I think a 24 year old who chooses a girlfriend in high school has a bit of a developmental problem. I'll assume he didn't take advantage of your age and ask you to do sexual things that you weren't comfortable with. Or quickly picked up signals of discomfort and didn't pressure you. You may be hurt by the information that I consider your ex to be a bit damaged. You may be hurt by the state pressing charges against your boyfriend. I don't see what other types of hurt are imposed on you. And I've never seen a child prosecuted for having consensual sex with another child although the average starting age has always been around 15-16.
Hunter - I just think pathologizing the child's behavior would have been overkill.
Is it that you can't imagine the damage resulting from a child who prefers to hit on adults instead of those in their peer group, or don't care?
@249 Philo: If it makes any difference to you, I wasn't in high school. In fact, we were in many of the same classes together in college. He'd taken a couple years off and I'd skipped a few years. You may feel he was damaged anyway, and that's fine. I don't think either of us were; I think we both would have been if the law had gotten involved.
As is a common theme here at Savage Love, people vary, and making generalizations based on gender or age or really anything else is often problematic. Of course the law can't do everything case by case. I get that. I'm just sad about it, and the fact that in my life I did some unusual things (e.g. go to college early) may mean I feel more sympathy for those unusual cases. I still agree that statutory rape laws probably help more people than they hurt. I only mean to say it's never black and white, and that we shouldn't go out of our way to tell people they've been harmed when they don't think so, just because something makes us feel squidgy.
Hun, some people don't need to be paid to be considerate of the feelings of others. And ew about fucking with others' happy sexuality.
Ciods - I think that graduating high school/ged should grant adulthood but the law doesn't. The ability to plan pregnancy and avoid diseases and respect your feelings and the law are the most important parts in my judgement of him. I get what you're saying about individual cases, but I think he could have turned his attention to another classmate or waited. I also see how it worked to your advantage with lack of available peers so he could be argued to be compassionate in a lesser of two evils way.
Philo:
>The ability to plan pregnancy and avoid diseases and respect your feelings and the law are the most important parts in my judgement of him.
Agreed! Except for that law bit. But that's just me; I don't respect laws just because they're laws, but only when I think they serve the good. (This law does, for many people; it didn't for us.) The other things you list are very important to me, and he did well on all those counts.
Emancipation is a bitch and usually only done when people have a bad relationship with their parents. I didn't.
I have one comment, though, about this comment to Hunter:
> Hun, some people don't need to be paid to be considerate of the feelings of others.
It seems you're assuming that consideration automatically equals assuming the girl was in some way harmed. And this is exactly what I mean when I say we, as a society, tell people they are victims. As personally *ew* as I may feel about his story, it doesn't seem to me he did her any more harm by letting it be than would have been done by making a deal of it, pulling her aside, addressing it in some way.
I realize you don't agree, but I don't think it's at all clear what would have been best, and given that, why assume more fuss is better?
@Hunter I'm not bothered by you being friendly with me, no worries there.
@vennominon I don't play cards except when the company does, and usually someone is nice enough to explain the rules to me in order to get another participant. I usually then proceed to lose with absolutely no qualms about it. I suppose bridge needs a bit more involvement than that ?
Ciods - It seems you're assuming that consideration automatically equals assuming the girl was in some way harmed.
Nope. I meant Hunter had refused to consider my point. He dismissed it, he's beyond consideration, into defensiveness and shock tactics. I suppose you are saying that you can't imagine the damage resulting from a child who prefers to hit on adults. While he said he would need paid more to care.
And I think I was wrong about emancipation in general, maybe the only solution to romeo/juliet ages beyond state laws is emancipation by marriage.
The LW carried a secret for most of his life, a part he couldn't share with others, maybe not anyone but the rapist. Hiding it from his wife his whole life hurt their intimacy. I hope he has built a nice life regardless, and waits until his kids grow up to explore this secret with his wife.
When we win a close-fought dragon boat race, I have been known to let out a yell.
And just yesterday, I had a panic attack when a bee flew too close to my ear, might have emitted a small yelp.
Female Philo person; soft caring young woman. I feel love for you.
Cat Brother; you not dead then?
And children don't get the Breast every time they scream. Usually, when they hungry. Often for comfort.
Wish I'd been offered a Breast for comfort. Don't really know that I ever got a Breast, that was attached to a woman, my Mother, that loved giving such nurturance.
Hunter; So long ago, can't remember. He got his sex. I did my respective duties with my five children and one man.
And ran a Buddhist Library as well, with a slightly feral approach.
Gee. Was there time for me in all that? Perhaps not.
Before the ins and outs of toilet training becomes the next topic, anyone interested in turning attention to LW4?
This Man is in deep shit. Before he explodes, at 30 yrs of age- with his self deception, he needs some guidance.
@ven: You seem to have your finger on the pulse of the MRA scene. I'm not as tuned in, so if you see a connection between what I've said and men's rights, I'll have to take your word for it.
As for the PUA contest, most of what I stir up among the ladies here is annoyance.
Lava - Blueballs definitely needs some advice. But... very hard to know precisely what that advice should be... I know for myself... i simply COULD NOT entertain the idea of extramarital sex. I don't want sex like that... i want it WITH my partner. It is sad that depression is so insidious...and personal. If his wife was an alcoholic and took the attitude of "there's nothing i can do".... the advice we gave him would be very black and white (get out now!). With what he conveys.... i don't know what to tell him. He makes no mention of couples therapy.... Blueballs...if you are reading any of these comments... i personally believe you need to start there... get into therapy... alone at first so you can sort out your actual needs (sex is clearly the flashpoint for you...but it doesn't really sound like you are getting ANY needs met....).... the therapist can help you.... then obviously... your wife needs to join you... Good luck my friend... i have been where you are and it feels desperate and lonely.
Yeah, well, nothing much struck my fancy. Though I must respectfully correct Mr Eud; the dumbest thing ever on SL was the commenter who posited that fantasizing about someone, including randos on the street or wherever that didn’t notice you and that you’d never see again, turned them into one’s ‘personal sex slave, ‘ and was therefore a Bad Thing.
There’s an old Tibetan saying for the dead to avoid damnation and the living to avoid internet arguments dealing with rape. Few minds are changed and the big verbal guns are always rolled out.
That's not true Sean. Although, not being much of a lady, I can't speak for that mob.
You don't annoy me. All these bullshit letters. You're a straight shooter. Who loves his wife and children well. And can still play. You sound like a good man, in my view of what matters.
As a homely and awkward adolescent who was ridiculously physically delayed, but reasonably sharp mentally and keen to tackle real life, I prayed frequently to Saint Robinson for deliverance. Had I known about her, I would have invoked Saint Maggie May as well. If some selfish, troubled, but utlimately compassionate older woman had taken me home and had her way with me, my self-confidence, self-image and self-esteem all would have taken a dramatic turn for the better. I believe. And I can't help thinking the attendant long-term benefits would have changed my life for the better. Cause there was no way I was going to interest anyone in my peer group, I'll tell you that, all of you saying horny young teenagers should stick to their own age group. Nothing less of a turn-on for some 17-year-old, fully developed young woman in senior high than to hook up with a guy her age who looks like he was headed for the elementary school across the street and took a wrong turn.
You'd think there'd be nothing there to interest any self-respecting older woman either, but it almost happened, actually. I worked at a store after school, surrounded by hip, older people whose musical tastes formed mine, for better or for worse. And when I turned sixteen, there was general joshing about a woman who worked there initiating me into adulthood--she was known to have a keen appetite, and was quite attractive. We were friends and comfortable with each other--I was kind of the store mascot--and she teased me about the possibility, but there was something about her that made me think she wasn't quite teasing, not entirely. Maybe testing the waters, or trying to figure out for herself how serious she was, based on my reaction. Had I been less awkward and less shy, something might have come of it. For a couple of months afterward I lived in hope. Alas. That was the closest I ever got, and I would have been extremely grateful had it happened.
You may question the motives of the older person in that kind of relationship, but really who cares about the motives if the younger person gets what they need: the sexual affirmation and physical relief that they crave. Two undeveloped people helping each other out in their own way. I've seen this woman around now and then, and still feel kindly toward her for treating me as more of a grown up than I probably appeared at the time.
Oh Chairman, hope you stronger in yourself, now?
Yeah. No extramarital sex. Agree, being with a partner has to include that pretty basic need being met.
Loving is Loving.
Depression: for one, she's on drugs- helps kill wanting sex.
She's overweight- easy to make an effort there.
My suggestion, she go and listen to some Buddhist Teachings and do therapy.
Depression is about the mind, yes? Repetitive negative thinking patterns. Buddhism, is about changing those patterns. Takes effort. Takes time.
For this poor boy. I think he should just go treat himself to a sex worker. Clear that energy a bit, then really ask himself, a few pertinent questions.
First one being;
do I have love anywhere in my body for this woman, or am I just on automatic, doing my duty.
Like Late, you're Like Late.
Yes Yes, we know . All you boys , in Retrospect, see this as an ultimate fantasy. We get it.
But this Woman wasn't some fairy princess, she was a predator.
Count yourself lucky, you didn't meet her as a boy of 15.. Fuck with your head as well as your body.
You reckon, Lava? I don't. I'd rather be mucking in there, dealing with the fallout from messy life, than sitting on the outside looking in. I was too shy to do that, back then, and I paid a price for it. I'm not sure being taken in by a "predator" would have cost as much, but my hunch is no.
You've got a mom's point of view of fifteen-year-old boys. Quite understandably. But it's not the whole story.
Lava - I wish I could do what you do. It's difficult, I don't like it, it's like small talk, prickly and uncomfortable and I don't really get it although I recognize the value. I'm working on it. Anyway, I love your perspective too. Thank you Cat in fez for the compliment, and for the pretty hairball you pasted last week. And yes Seandr, you can mix a tasty brew.
Oh my. Shrewd Cat in cos play, then roaring from a dragon boat... Now he's going after thought police. Dibs on Nocute's leftovers. I hope she plays with her food and doesn't swallow him whole, this time.
@LB - A younger person can offer more unadulterated :) enthusiasm and willingness to explore their partner... but when an adult finds this attractive, instead of body/personality, I think whatever you learn about connecting with people from them should be taken with a grain of salt. This goes against a minor's instinct to gain adult approval. She could have taken you to bed, showed you that proper sex is only performed with furry costumes and tasers, and you might have had a little trouble connecting with your peer group for sex as a result.
Late Bloomer, It might well be some adult women's fantasy, that of sexually educating a young, weedy boy. But it's not all of ours. I don't want to have to show someone the ropes. I guess I could look at it as training him to be the kind of lover I want, but given that (a) I prefer to be submissive and (b) I prefer to be more the cute young thing than the older, wiser, Mrs. Robinson, it's not something that interests me.
I teach 18-year-old men. The last thing I want to do in my time out of class is to play some game of "hot for teacher"--for one thing, I don't want to be a teacher when I'm not one and for another, to me, 18-year-old men seem like children. My daughter is 15, and I therefore see a lot of 15-and 16-year-old boys. I cannot imagine wanting to have sex with them, even the cute ones.
So, yes, I get that it's a typical adolescent boy's fantasy, and I love the song, "Stacy's Mom," but my issue is less the one that LavaGirl raised @278, about being a predator, than the fact that I'm not sexually interested in children or ultra-green young adults.
Dr Sean - As a tourist, I get around. It reminds me a bit of Rumpole's thinking that, if he ever were to be made any sort of minor Judge, one of the great perks would be not caring who won.
Now that I think of it, when were those threads in which I said you were on fire? Had it been a concert, the stage would have been littered with panties. If they were last year, we could retroactively appoint you last year's PUA of the Year and give you the benefit of being the reigning champion.
Well Late; I would liked to have been first taken, as that girl in 50 shades was. He looked like one nice Lover.
But no. Didn't happen.
You were not up to dealing with an older woman, by the sound of it. Not a much older woman, anyway.
You can have a 20 yr old. That do your retrospective fantasy life?
@Philophile: Wait, do you mean that hat proper sex isn't only performed with furry costumes and tasers? I guess that's true; you left out some crucial props: Where do the slinkys and the ski masks fit in?
@285, so you can dig on leonine salt-and-pepper types?
Because I just had a vision of myself, coming in from practice on Lake Union, paddle across my broad tan shoulders, sweat running thru my close-cropped hair, burning brown eyes fixed on your trembling form,
“Now, NoCute, you realize how important our race with the Flying Dragons is tomorrow, that I have to be in top form? Good...you have a four-poster bed, perfect. Now over the next few hours, I’m going to tie you to one or more of those posts. We’ll only switch ties when I feel we’ve fully exhausted that particular arrangement.”
We don’t generally compete on the West Coast, but....
1) Young people want to be sexually desired.
2) Young women often go through a very trampy phase as they practice how to be sexually desired and how to tell when someone notices and is interested.
3) The best people to practice on are a) safe -- they won't follow through; b) kind; c) desirable themselves and have options, so that if they show they notice and like what they notice their approval actually means something.
Not controversial, I hope. Hunter78 noticed this age-appropriate behaviour demonstrated in a particularly explicit way. Ok.
4) Young people are beautiful. They're energetic and earnest and, uh... young. I love watching young people. The older I get the more young people I find beautiful. I think that adults having tender feelings towards young people is probably instinctive, so that we watch over and protect them.
Please please please nobody try to tell me that it's somehow terrible or controversial for an adult to notice the beauty (and sexuality, when demonstrated) of young people and to have simultaneous fond feelings and thoughts.
The creepy part is when an adult takes these very normal reciprocal feelings and behaviours as an invitation to actually act, and then acts. That's ridiculous. This is a kid. Noticing is normal, feeling fond is good, thinking it's a good idea to fuck the kid is completely self-absorbed.
@288, because we started with two quick loops around your wrists while you were still standing, a clove hitch around the lower-right post, and a (relatively) quick and savage first outing, so we, or at least I, could settle down some and take our time after that.
You’ll have noticed that like cats, women have little feeling in the hair at the base of the skull, was able to grip you there pain-free and pretty much toss you around like a doll. And you had that firm post to exert pressure against and thrust backwards. Win-win, I’d say.
Right. Just flirt away. Leave me to deal with this poor kid;
OK. LW4; ; second question;
Assuming there's a fraction of motivation left, to move this Mamoth Mess, that Both of you have created,
You gotta get real firm with this Woman.
No more BULL SHIT is allowed.
Chop Chop.
You gotta be reared a Catholic, Right? All this self sacrifice is so fucking familiar ...
You sit your Wife down, when your child is elsewhere, and you read her the Riot Act.
This is what's gonna happen, from here on in- or You're Walking.. And You'll be taking the child with you.
Because she is in no fit state to look after the child by herself. Once she gets her shit together, by herself, then shared custody will be arranged.
You give her No Room to squirm. It's either she start to pull her finger out, and you'll support her while she does it.
Or you're walking. And she gets to pull her finger out, all by herself..
The Conditions you set? I can leave those to you, No? This is the time you bring your Masculine Energies way up to the fore.
And Yes, I give you a pass to go to a Sex Worker. It will strengthen you, and you need strength now. So, we'll just call it therapeutic services..
Good God, boy. WTF? How did it all get to this. Give it one more sharp , strong effort to help clean up the mess, you both created.
And I wish you good luck.
You got courage and strength.
You've shown that already. Along with a dose of stupidity. But stupidity can been seen for what it is, once you taste fun again, which you will when you go to the Sex Worker. Just don't jump over the fence, till you give her one last big shot. Or you'll feel bad later on.
Honestly, I don't think anyone can improve upon Dan's advice to BLUEBALLS. I think he needs to let her know what the withholding of sex is doing to him. Not just physically, but emotionally. Because withholding sex isn't just about the sex. It means the withholding partner knows that s/he knows that her/his spouse is unsatisfied and frustrated and still s/he just doesn't care. I think that realization is at least as painful as the going without sex is frustrating.
So, Eudaemonic, (44) you think it's impossible for a 15-year-old male to have sex with a 32-year-old woman without it being coercive and psychologically harmful to the male? I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you were never a 15-year-old, heterosexual male.
Do you actually think that everyone who had sex as a teenager with someone over 18 is lying if they say it wasn't harmful to them? Is Dan lying? And you think the reason they're lying is social pressure? You're a fucking lunatic. If an adult says that the sex they had as a teenager with an adult was not harmful, it's extremely arrogant and condescending to refuse to believe them. You're ignoring the facts and imposing your sex-negative sensibilities on other people, people you've never even met.
Your analogy with gunshot victims is ridiculous. It presumes the truth of your position that adolescent sex must always be harmful, like gunshot wounds.
I'm not saying statutory rape law should be changed (except perhaps a 3 year or greater difference in age). Children and adolescents do need to be protected from exploitation by adults, but it is psychologically untrue and psychologically harmful to assume that teen sex is always damaging. This assumption is based on nothing more than sex-negative, arbitrary, religious morality.
Right. Well. Just a note to say I am neither confessing a fantasy nor encouraging older women to pretend an interest in spotty, dorky teenagers like I was. I was tossing my hat in the ring on the side of those who believe underage sex with a large age gap does not always have to be abusive. It would certainly have meant a lot to me. Philo, knowing what I knew about my co-worker, I'm pretty sure she would have taken it easy on me. No scuba gear or rubber crocodiles. The campsite rule had not been formulated yet, but I'm sure she would have respected it.
With you all the way, Alison @289, except for this: "Thinking it's a good idea to fuck the kid is completely self-absorbed." Well, possibly, but once again in my case I would have been okay with that. Win-win, I say.
This is in no way to be taken as a challenge to existing statutory rape laws. The necessity is clear. Just a note that where I am, sixteen would have been legal, btw.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled sexy times....
Ms Sissou - If you have ever read Mansfield Park, you will recall the dinner at the Parsonage after which Sir Thomas Bertram, who was always a faultlessly polite husband, came as near faltering as he ever did in that capacity when Lady Bertram, requested to choose whether she would play whist or speculation, asked Sir Thomas which would amuse her most. "Sir Thomas, after a moment's thought, recommended speculation. He was a whist player himself, and perhaps might feel that it would not much amuse him to have her for a partner."
Bridge is at least twice as involved as whist. As a friend, I'd advise you not to select any partnership game if you could avoid.it. A round game would be more suitable for someone of your reported experience.
Philo, for you I pictured more a sedate dinner, seeing you over the candlelight, with your hair up in one of those messy up-do’s that are my favorite. To start.
Do you have a black or gray turtleneck? That’s how you keep showing up...
I agree with @288 Bloomer. If I got ripped off in a real estate deal or something, even though I was unaware, someone can sit down with me and explain how they took my money. If an older lady took my virginity as an under-17 teen, I’LL tell you if it was a harmful experience. When does my experience, the one that was supposedly impacted, get credence?
Mr Cat - I am happy to give you as much credence as you want, as you have beautifully illustrated my point from the end of the previous week's thread for me. The Defence rests.
Actually it’s a perfectly good analogy. Waving guns around and firing just because it’s fun sometimes causes a fatal gunshot wound, sometimes a nonfatal gunshot wound and sometimes nobody’s hit at all and it’s just good fun. Outside the US and Afghanistan we don’t say that waving guns around and firing for fun is ok on the grounds that it doesn’t always kill someone. Likewise we don’t say that it’s ok for older people to have sex with much-younger minors on the grounds that it isn’t always damaging. Even if it’s nonfatal/nontraumatizing 95% of the time we think people should just show some restraint and not do unnecessarily dangerous things.
LateBloomer @298,
Depends on the age. When the kid is 15, lay off and watch fondly from a distance. Maybe say reassuring things. When the young person is 17, campsite rule. Don’t get them in trouble, which means don’t get yourself in trouble because that would place a burden on the 17-year-old they really don’t need. At 16? That’s a weird age. They definitely need good legal protection — it’s a great age for recruiting sex workers. If a young person runs off to live with a pimp and the parent calls the cops, the cops have to be able to say more than, “It’s your child’s choice, they’re of the age of consent and they say that guy’s their boyfriend.” But a sixteen-year-old does need to be able to control their own body and make decisions about who gets to touch it.
Note that I said “good idea.” Not that it’s necessarily harmful but it’s a selfish risk to take. There are ways for an older person to acknowledge and respectfully accept the sexuality of a much-younger minor without having sex with them.
Disclosure: I had sex once with a much-older adult when I was thirteen. It wasn't enjoyable but neither was it traumatizing. I even learned some important lessons that have stood me in good stead since then. I could have done other things though. And having an ongoing sexual relationship with a much-older adult would definitely not have been good even if I'd wanted it.
@289: He bragged (trolling or not) about the fond memory of enjoying a 12-13 year old showing him her vagina to justify an acceptable "grooming" scenario. How is that appropriate?
@279: I have a friend who was "groomed" by a thirty-something woman when he was 14, he was excited at the time, but years later, he's had a much different approach than when we were in high school and has nothing but loathing for her. It's rarely just sex with the "cool older person", it tends to come with externalities to the fantasy that would push an adult towards a child. I'm not saying everything is trauma, but it can certainly have negative effects on a person's life.
I have no idea what you mean by “justifying an acceptable grooming scenario.”
As far as we know, this child initiated very explicitly, he noticed and enjoyed. End of story. There may well have been flirting and encouragement, conversations about how special she was and the only one who understood him, lendings of Lolita and porn videos, but he didn’t say that.
The comment I read was about a barely pubescent child selecting Hunter78 as a safe target for practicing her sexuality on because she knew he wasn’t going to follow through. As far as I can tell she was correct: he was safe. He neither pursued her nor was scandalized by her.
Grooming is something that Hunter78 would have been initiating to prepare the ground for a seduction. If the grooming is successful the child will be receptive to sexual invitation or coercion. His comment does not describe that. It may have occurred; perhaps he eventually invited her to feel his hard-on through his pants; took her home, got her drunk and raped her; or perhaps she became his wife. But none of that is in the comment.
Actually, Lava, now that you mention it, I booked a cabin of sorts last weekend and went bush my style, in the company of the lovely Mrs. Bloomer. Drinks were consumed, boundaries pushed, fun was had, and discussions pursued. An agreement of sorts was reached. It's early days yet, but it's possible we're rounding a corner. Maybe. I've been here before and been disappointed, but I'm cautiously optimistic. :)
Yes, Hunter78 has a history of assigning idiosyncratic meanings to words and phrases, constructing an improbable interpretation based on an understanding only he has, and becoming sniffy about the language police when someone tries to explain the shared meaning so that he can understand and participate.
*** *** ***
For reference, in context we are talking about “grooming” as a step in the seduction of someone inappropriately young. Not currying horses.
Wikipedia, Jerry Sandusky
Through his Second Mile organization Sandusky would first approach potential victims, typically boys without a father living at home, when they were 8–12 years-old. Subsequently, Sandusky employed classic child grooming strategies such as offering trips to football games or bestowing gifts, which would leading to incremental touching.
Wikipedia, child grooming
Child grooming is befriending and establishing an emotional connection with a child, and sometimes the family, to lower the child's inhibitions for child sexual abuse.[1] It lures minors into trafficking of children, illicit businesses such as child prostitution, or the production of child pornography.[2][3][4] It is a behavior that is characteristic of paedophilia.
This crime has been proscribed in various ways since the International Convention for the Suppression of the Traffic in Women and Children, which was agreed in 1921 as a multilateral treaty of the League of Nations that addressed the problem of international trafficking of women and children for nefarious purposes. The proscribed traffic was international in nature at that time. The concept of localised grooming, in which gangs of reprobates groom neighbourhood victims, was devised in 2010 by the UK Child Exploitation and Online Protection Centre.[5]
This is done to gain the child's trust as well as the trust of those responsible for the child's well-being. Additionally, a trusting relationship with the family means the child's parents are less likely to believe potential accusations.
In the case of sexual grooming, child pornography images are often shown to the child as part of the grooming process.[2][3][4]
To establish a good relationship with the child and the child’s family, child groomers might do several things. For example, they might take an undue interest in someone else’s child, to be the child’s “special” friend to gain the child’s trust.[citation needed] They might give gifts or money to the child for no apparent reason (toys, dolls, etc.). They may show pornography—videos or pictures—to the child, hoping to make it easy for the child to accept such acts, thus normalizing the behavior. They may simply talk about sexual topics. These are just some of the methods a child groomer might use to gain a child's trust and affection to allow them to do what they want. Hugging and kissing or other physical contact, even when the child does not want it, can happen. To the groomer, this is a way to get close.[dubious ] They might talk about problems normally discussed between adults, or at least people of the same age. Topics might include marital problems and other conflicts. They may try to gain the child’s parents’ trust by befriending them, with the goal of easy access to the child. The child groomer might look for opportunities to have time alone with the child. This can be done by offering to babysit. The groomer may invite the child for sleepovers. This gives them the opportunity to sleep in the same room or even the same bed with the child.
Jesus, what's with all this Hunter bashing? Usual suspects , I notice.
Late; Proud of you.. See. Just a little variety in setting, especially nature- away from other people, so you don't get distracted- and, the murcurial qualities of us humans can once again been seen.. Just remember to do those getaways as often as you can, away from the RugRats.
@undead: enjoying a 12-13 year old showing him her vagina to justify an acceptable "grooming" scenario. How is that appropriate?
If you think confronting her about it would have been appropriate, you are insane.
Pro tip for men - when a woman who is too young for you decides to show you her pussy, the appropriate response is to smile, appreciate, and do absolutely nothing else! Anything else you might do will only cause problems for you or her, but probably you.
@vennominon
Yes, I remember this exchange in Mansfield Park. Of course I wouldn't play partnered. We French have a game of cards called belote which I approximately know how to play, with partnered or not option ; alas, many players are sore losers and I've seen and been part of that kind of drama enough to not want to play partnered again - and actually, card games are all suspicious to me until I've seen that the players can contain themselves. I suppose this issue doesn't happen with the anglo-saxon manners, or does it ?
@LavaGirl
Hunter bashing ? Come on, he totally enjoys that kind of attention. You can't say he's hurt by it if he himself says he totally loves it.
@seandr
Your answer to 'smile, appreciate' is correct for a fellow adult, however young s/he is, not for someone who was entrusted to you to educate or raise.
For a person entrusted to you, the correct attitude from the educator is to tell that person in no uncertain terms, but in a way that will not bring harm to the child, so obviously not in front of the classroom, that such a behaviour is inappropriate towards an educator/an adult from a child, that it exposes the child to be taken advantage of in ways that can durably harm her/him, and to keep that for when s/he's grown up.
Of course, in the case of a male teacher and a female student, that talk should be had by a fellow female teacher, with the door to the classroom wide open.
Not reacting to such a provocation was a failure on Hunter's part, from hie educative role, even more so if he showed apreciation.
@229: nocutename: Thank you! I'll hope to hear by Spring Quarter if I'm accepted, and just how affordable an MA in Music Composition is.
@230 sissoucat: Thank you so much! I know you'll find a very special someone.
@232 & @236 LavaGirl: I'm going to have to check out Bjorg, Magic Mike and Tatum Channing.
Oooooo----what IS it about Judd Nelson's "Being bad feels pretty good, doesn't it?" John Bender and Brad Pitt's J.D.--especially undressed in a motel room? Woof!
Red, red wine is staying close to me!
@229 nocutename: THank you! I'll hope to find out about whether or not I've been accepted by Spring Quarter, and just how affordable--or not--my pursuit of an MA of Music Composition is.
@230 sissoucat: Thank yo so much! I know you'll find a very special someone soon.
@232 & @236 LavaGirl: I'll have to check out Bjorg, Tatum Channing and Magic Mike.
Ooooooo--what IS it about the moving screen image of Brad Pitt as J.D., undressed in a motel room?? Woof!
Sissoucat; I'm just the resident defender. Im up for this Month. And every other month. It's sort of a self appointed position.
Hunter under the same protection law as all the others. No discrimination against ShitHeads.
Hunter78, he doesn’t say she damaged him. What I got from the letter was that he thought it was a shitty thing to do to a vulnerable kid.
Mixed feelings — both positive and negative. Those are hard to deal with. When children (younger than he was) feel sexually aroused by the attentions of the inappropriate adult (say, a parent or football coach) we know that’s especially damaging. They feel simultaneously violated and guilty. That’s what I’d expect from the LW’s situation: a combination of “fuck, that was cool,” “ewwww, that was gross,” “I’m the only one who really understands her but I’m just a kid in high school and my own problems are more than enough for me,” “I needed a safe place to stay to get away from the drama and I didn’t get it” and “something major just happened and I can't talk to anyone about it.” He felt responsible for keeping her out of trouble, a burden a kid doesn’t need.
She’s a family friend, so hard to avoid. He didn’t go back to her then and he keeps her at a distance now. He talks about what happened using the language we use to talk about Jerry Sandusky and says he had a hard time.
We don’t know if she permanently damaged him or if the experience ultimately made him a more independent person but I’m not sure we need to know that.
My ex-from-hell ultimately taught me important things but extorted an extremely high price for the lessons. Every now and then, over 22 years later, I think I see her in the street and get all panicky. While I was certainly very damaged in the short run (a year or two) in the long run I learned to take more responsibility for myself. Still, I would not recommend her as a partner to anyone. I think “directly causing indisputable permanent damage” is a very high bar for behaviour to have to clear before it can be called shitty. “You knew better than that” is plenty high enough. The LW’s older woman knew better than that.
No, my encounter with an adult did not damage me in the short or long term. I initiated it once and I never initiated it again. He was very easy to avoid. I obviously don’t think all sexual encounters with adults are necessarily damaging to teenagers, but if someone is using loaded language to describe a relationship I have no difficulty accepting that it was a Bad Thing.
315 (and the whole thread) There's a disturbing thing about the whole discussion on statutory rape, when the abuse occurs, and if abuse has occurred-- The target child is generally at risk in the first place. In the wikipedia articles, it's noted that the predator chooses a fatherless child to be a special friend, takes a special interest in a kid that no one else is taking a interest in, showers gifts and trips on a teen who isn't getting those gifts and trips from someone who isn't interested in him/her sexually. When the kid grows up and becomes addicted to drugs or depressed or suicidal or unable to form a healthy sexual relationship, it's hard to know if the cause is the sexual abuse or the underlying neglect that made the abuse possible. You'd have to compare kids who were at risk for being groomed in the first place who weren't hideously betrayed by trusted adults with those who were at risk but weren't.
RE what I think Hunter78 should have done with his 7th grader: not reward the behaviour. Appreciate (if that’s the case) without smiling then reassign seats so that she can’t do that again.
Undead ayn rand, why would fondly remembering age-appropriate teenage misbehaviour make someone a garbage person? She was both an adorable and likeable child and a hot and aggressively sexual teen or preteen. Thoughts and feelings don’t make someone a garbage person. Actions do. We don’t know what Hunter78’s actions were.
LateBloomer, I'm glad you and your wife had what sounds like a fun and productive weekend and hope that whatever agreements you came to will come to fruition.
LavaGirl, yes, that was some fun imagery to ponder.
I think Alison is making a lot of good points in this thread. And I'll hop on with 333 and say I also think people are allowed to have whatever thoughts and feelings they want without being a bad person. It's acting on thoughts and feelings that causes problems. If Hunter enjoyed the quick flash, and ignored it (as far as the girl knows), good on him. That's the right response, from my point of view.
I think young people who are just starting to learn about their own sexuality hitting on older people to see what power sex has is totally normal. (By which I mean that I did it.) I don't think it requires taking the young person aside and telling them "No no, bad puppy!" Just let them try it out, and don't take advantage. That's how we learn, right?
Grooming usually refers to physical hygiene but also to shaping, or attempting to influence the growth of, pruning or redirecting or styling. In the context of a sexual relationship, it's shaping a minor to be likelier to say yes to advances, using special sexual attention etc. Intimacy, mutual vulnerability, is the socially approved way to shape each other in a sexual relationship. Because when partners aren't peers it raises the ability to consent question. There are no safe targets to hit on. Any one could say yes. Anyone could say no. Beauty, and creepiness, is in the eye of the beholder. When I develop a fondness for minors, I'd call that feeling "adoption". The lack of action is also an choice, as judgable as any other. ""The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."
Sissoucat - For a person entrusted to you, the correct attitude from the educator is to tell that person in no uncertain terms, but in a way that will not bring harm to the child, so obviously not in front of the classroom, that such a behaviour is inappropriate towards an educator/an adult from a child, that it exposes the child to be taken advantage of in ways that can durably harm her/him, and to keep that for when s/he's grown up.
Awesome. Except kids can have sex. With each other. Parent's responsibility to make sure they don't have kids while kids. I like the idea of tossing a bunch of condoms at them and telling them to watch their health (preg, sti's), sex should feel great don't settle for less, and watch the tendency to be talked into stupid shit while horny. I think it works better than forbidding. Poor parents.
I don't think you're awful Hun, no one's perfect. I do think people are responsible for learning from their mistakes somewhat, though.
I imagine I would raise an eyebrow and frown at any tendency to go that way, then ask another teacher what to do next time, I'm horrible at this stuff. What you're supposed to do is address the behavior, prove that you can be matter of fact about sex, that it won't get much attention but clearly state that it's inappropriate, they should have no mixed messages about this. Middle school is a little late for this so maybe a female teacher but I think a hallway chat and alerting principal would have worked.
When boys think exposing themselves to adults is cool, they likely end up in juve. When girls think it's cool, they are more likely to find someone who thinks taking the offer is ok, or can't resist the attentions of minors. "No respect for the vulnerability of minors" and "no self control" aren't good qualities in a lover, in the best case scenario. The worst case is finding a desperate sadist or pedophile. And learning to negotiate a sexual relationship with your peers is such an important life skill, an adult or boss or kid you're baby sitting or family member are all inappropriate for a reason, minors.
Venn@226; I don't know, sometimes I'd like to give you a cuddle. Sometimes though, you just too damn clever.
Yes, a child demanding Breast at a dinner party, is a bit weird.
My boy, the one I fed till he was four. I reckoned, since I was such an older Mother for this boy, I had to put in my efforts strongly, at the beginning of his life. In case I wasn't there, as he headed towards adulthood.
That boy now, is emotionally very stable, despite the death of his oldest half- brother. Despite his father, behaving like a total total git from this boy's 13th birthday on.
I'm pretty sure, the long period of Breast feeding I gave him, has contributed greatly to his emotional strength. And his physical health.
Breasts? Good news--although one is bigger than the other---I had an encouraging mammogram---all good--"See you next year". Yay!
Wish me luck on my grad school application. With the help of a wonderful fellow musician friend, my emailing a reformatted pdf version of my BA transcript was successfully emailed to the grad admissions office.
Now why do I need red wine and more of a 28 year old Brad Pitt (as J.D. from "Thelma & Louise")--AND Judd Nelson's John Bender (from "The Breakfast Club") again all of a sudden?
I'm a bad girl wannabe....?
Lavagirl : I second the hugs for vennominon.
Vennominon : are you still into chess and winning tournaments ? I admit a partiality for clever children over more 'normal' ones - I relate more.
What about Magic Mike, for a bit of toy boy watching? Great great dancing, too. That Tatum Channing. Special qualities there.
Hear there's a new one coming out. More dancing in the next one.
Bad Girl Wannabe?
Good to hear, my girl.
Based over more than a year of observation of Hunter, he once was a honest troll, just good enough to be totally ignored, and then he humanized himself somehow. As of today there are frequent glimpses of Hunter the human, but whenever a subject lends itself to trolling he can't resist it for too long. Which is a shame, as Hunter the human is a lot more fascinating but admittedly gets him less reactions than his offensive posts.
Lolita.
got the Female covered.
Just like Tatum better than Channing.
Call me imperfect. I'll handle it.
I agree the point is that adults should be able to stop themselves. I do know one or two cases where I didn't think the adult was that far out of line, but they're rare (and usually with "adults" pretty close to the consent line themselves, but just over). More often I think the adult-in-question sounds a proper creeper. But for me, the question isn't "should we let the adults get away with it" but "how far do we want to go to tell a child they've been hurt when they don't think they have?" Isn't that making it worse for them?
Am I mistaken in thinking that your choice of Sis for me means you see me as something like a sister ?
I think, getting a sex-positive female teacher to talk to her could have done some good. When teenagers push the limits like this, what they most want is be noticed, and be shown they matter.
Hun - I think you should have acted disapproving, ideally. Since you didn't manage to convey disapproval well enough to nip the behavior in the bud, then yes, reporting inappropriate attire would have helped the child. What hurt the child was your approval, your enjoyment. You taught her it was ok for a child to pursue an adult, perhaps she even thought adults were safer to hit on after taking your class. The next adult who returns her attention with a warm smile may not feel so restrained from saying yes.
Pubescing children have complex sexual fantasies
Pubescing children want to fuck anything that moves and make really stupid decisions to attempt that "safely".
Has Justin Biber yet been dethroned as prince in the minds of millions of girly sub-teens and teens?
I don't understand what you're trying to say. I think it would be sad if Justin Beiber's audience were completely middle aged women.
It's never been illegal for minors to have sex with each other.
Ms Lava - The issue is all Holmes/Sun/Earth to me; I am not disposed to quarrel with any approach that worked. Not usually being a fan of the visuals of that general part of the body for any gender or sex, I just take comfort in at least not being hypocritical on the issue.
> Who is suggesting telling statutory "victims" how to feel?
In my mind, if the incident/affair/whatever it is comes out and there is a scandal, arrest, trial, prosecution, or any subset thereof, that's a huge amount of data telling the child that they should feel victimized, that something horrible happened to them, and that we all agree they should be traumatized. The reaction of the system is telling them very clearly how to feel.
Sometimes that's correct; sometimes it's not. I'm not saying I have a good algorithm for differentiating the cases. But in the case of the 14-year-old in Montana, for instance, I personally believe that her suicide was a result of the trauma inflicted by the intense negative reaction of the outside world, *not* by the relationship. So did we do her a service by trying to protect her after the fact, or not?
>It's never been illegal for minors to have sex with each other.
That's not my impression. It certainly wasn't true when I was 17, which admittedly was a while ago. Perhaps it's changed since then. I know many states have relatively new "Romeo and Juliet" laws. But I don't think it's universal yet. I also believe that for many states, the Romeo and Juliet laws don't apply to SS couples, which is obviously problematic. If I'm wrong, I'll be pleased.
When I was 17 and dating a 24-year-old, there was a very publicized case in California of a 16-year-old who was in a relationship with a 20-year-old, and she got pregnant. The state prosecuted him for statutory rape, although she did not want them to, and even though both sets of parents knew about the relationship and approved, and no one wanted charges pressed. The state did it anyway. It scared the shit out of me and my boyfriend.
Hunter - I just think pathologizing the child's behavior would have been overkill.
Is it that you can't imagine the damage resulting from a child who prefers to hit on adults instead of those in their peer group, or don't care?
As is a common theme here at Savage Love, people vary, and making generalizations based on gender or age or really anything else is often problematic. Of course the law can't do everything case by case. I get that. I'm just sad about it, and the fact that in my life I did some unusual things (e.g. go to college early) may mean I feel more sympathy for those unusual cases. I still agree that statutory rape laws probably help more people than they hurt. I only mean to say it's never black and white, and that we shouldn't go out of our way to tell people they've been harmed when they don't think so, just because something makes us feel squidgy.
Ciods - I think that graduating high school/ged should grant adulthood but the law doesn't. The ability to plan pregnancy and avoid diseases and respect your feelings and the law are the most important parts in my judgement of him. I get what you're saying about individual cases, but I think he could have turned his attention to another classmate or waited. I also see how it worked to your advantage with lack of available peers so he could be argued to be compassionate in a lesser of two evils way.
>The ability to plan pregnancy and avoid diseases and respect your feelings and the law are the most important parts in my judgement of him.
Agreed! Except for that law bit. But that's just me; I don't respect laws just because they're laws, but only when I think they serve the good. (This law does, for many people; it didn't for us.) The other things you list are very important to me, and he did well on all those counts.
Emancipation is a bitch and usually only done when people have a bad relationship with their parents. I didn't.
I have one comment, though, about this comment to Hunter:
> Hun, some people don't need to be paid to be considerate of the feelings of others.
It seems you're assuming that consideration automatically equals assuming the girl was in some way harmed. And this is exactly what I mean when I say we, as a society, tell people they are victims. As personally *ew* as I may feel about his story, it doesn't seem to me he did her any more harm by letting it be than would have been done by making a deal of it, pulling her aside, addressing it in some way.
I realize you don't agree, but I don't think it's at all clear what would have been best, and given that, why assume more fuss is better?
@vennominon I don't play cards except when the company does, and usually someone is nice enough to explain the rules to me in order to get another participant. I usually then proceed to lose with absolutely no qualms about it. I suppose bridge needs a bit more involvement than that ?
Nope. I meant Hunter had refused to consider my point. He dismissed it, he's beyond consideration, into defensiveness and shock tactics. I suppose you are saying that you can't imagine the damage resulting from a child who prefers to hit on adults. While he said he would need paid more to care.
And I think I was wrong about emancipation in general, maybe the only solution to romeo/juliet ages beyond state laws is emancipation by marriage.
The LW carried a secret for most of his life, a part he couldn't share with others, maybe not anyone but the rapist. Hiding it from his wife his whole life hurt their intimacy. I hope he has built a nice life regardless, and waits until his kids grow up to explore this secret with his wife.
Man, wish I got a boob in my mouth every time I screamed...
And just yesterday, I had a panic attack when a bee flew too close to my ear, might have emitted a small yelp.
Cat Brother; you not dead then?
And children don't get the Breast every time they scream. Usually, when they hungry. Often for comfort.
Wish I'd been offered a Breast for comfort. Don't really know that I ever got a Breast, that was attached to a woman, my Mother, that loved giving such nurturance.
And ran a Buddhist Library as well, with a slightly feral approach.
Gee. Was there time for me in all that? Perhaps not.
This Man is in deep shit. Before he explodes, at 30 yrs of age- with his self deception, he needs some guidance.
As for the PUA contest, most of what I stir up among the ladies here is annoyance.
There’s an old Tibetan saying for the dead to avoid damnation and the living to avoid internet arguments dealing with rape. Few minds are changed and the big verbal guns are always rolled out.
You don't annoy me. All these bullshit letters. You're a straight shooter. Who loves his wife and children well. And can still play. You sound like a good man, in my view of what matters.
You'd think there'd be nothing there to interest any self-respecting older woman either, but it almost happened, actually. I worked at a store after school, surrounded by hip, older people whose musical tastes formed mine, for better or for worse. And when I turned sixteen, there was general joshing about a woman who worked there initiating me into adulthood--she was known to have a keen appetite, and was quite attractive. We were friends and comfortable with each other--I was kind of the store mascot--and she teased me about the possibility, but there was something about her that made me think she wasn't quite teasing, not entirely. Maybe testing the waters, or trying to figure out for herself how serious she was, based on my reaction. Had I been less awkward and less shy, something might have come of it. For a couple of months afterward I lived in hope. Alas. That was the closest I ever got, and I would have been extremely grateful had it happened.
You may question the motives of the older person in that kind of relationship, but really who cares about the motives if the younger person gets what they need: the sexual affirmation and physical relief that they crave. Two undeveloped people helping each other out in their own way. I've seen this woman around now and then, and still feel kindly toward her for treating me as more of a grown up than I probably appeared at the time.
Yeah. No extramarital sex. Agree, being with a partner has to include that pretty basic need being met.
Loving is Loving.
Depression: for one, she's on drugs- helps kill wanting sex.
She's overweight- easy to make an effort there.
My suggestion, she go and listen to some Buddhist Teachings and do therapy.
Depression is about the mind, yes? Repetitive negative thinking patterns. Buddhism, is about changing those patterns. Takes effort. Takes time.
For this poor boy. I think he should just go treat himself to a sex worker. Clear that energy a bit, then really ask himself, a few pertinent questions.
First one being;
do I have love anywhere in my body for this woman, or am I just on automatic, doing my duty.
Yes Yes, we know . All you boys , in Retrospect, see this as an ultimate fantasy. We get it.
But this Woman wasn't some fairy princess, she was a predator.
Count yourself lucky, you didn't meet her as a boy of 15.. Fuck with your head as well as your body.
You've got a mom's point of view of fifteen-year-old boys. Quite understandably. But it's not the whole story.
Oh my. Shrewd Cat in cos play, then roaring from a dragon boat... Now he's going after thought police. Dibs on Nocute's leftovers. I hope she plays with her food and doesn't swallow him whole, this time.
your style is pretty sassy, and very very cheeky.
I teach 18-year-old men. The last thing I want to do in my time out of class is to play some game of "hot for teacher"--for one thing, I don't want to be a teacher when I'm not one and for another, to me, 18-year-old men seem like children. My daughter is 15, and I therefore see a lot of 15-and 16-year-old boys. I cannot imagine wanting to have sex with them, even the cute ones.
So, yes, I get that it's a typical adolescent boy's fantasy, and I love the song, "Stacy's Mom," but my issue is less the one that LavaGirl raised @278, about being a predator, than the fact that I'm not sexually interested in children or ultra-green young adults.
Now that I think of it, when were those threads in which I said you were on fire? Had it been a concert, the stage would have been littered with panties. If they were last year, we could retroactively appoint you last year's PUA of the Year and give you the benefit of being the reigning champion.
But no. Didn't happen.
You were not up to dealing with an older woman, by the sound of it. Not a much older woman, anyway.
You can have a 20 yr old. That do your retrospective fantasy life?
Because I just had a vision of myself, coming in from practice on Lake Union, paddle across my broad tan shoulders, sweat running thru my close-cropped hair, burning brown eyes fixed on your trembling form,
“Now, NoCute, you realize how important our race with the Flying Dragons is tomorrow, that I have to be in top form? Good...you have a four-poster bed, perfect. Now over the next few hours, I’m going to tie you to one or more of those posts. We’ll only switch ties when I feel we’ve fully exhausted that particular arrangement.”
We don’t generally compete on the West Coast, but....
1) Young people want to be sexually desired.
2) Young women often go through a very trampy phase as they practice how to be sexually desired and how to tell when someone notices and is interested.
3) The best people to practice on are a) safe -- they won't follow through; b) kind; c) desirable themselves and have options, so that if they show they notice and like what they notice their approval actually means something.
Not controversial, I hope. Hunter78 noticed this age-appropriate behaviour demonstrated in a particularly explicit way. Ok.
4) Young people are beautiful. They're energetic and earnest and, uh... young. I love watching young people. The older I get the more young people I find beautiful. I think that adults having tender feelings towards young people is probably instinctive, so that we watch over and protect them.
Please please please nobody try to tell me that it's somehow terrible or controversial for an adult to notice the beauty (and sexuality, when demonstrated) of young people and to have simultaneous fond feelings and thoughts.
The creepy part is when an adult takes these very normal reciprocal feelings and behaviours as an invitation to actually act, and then acts. That's ridiculous. This is a kid. Noticing is normal, feeling fond is good, thinking it's a good idea to fuck the kid is completely self-absorbed.
I don't see where Hunter78 said he acted.
You’ll have noticed that like cats, women have little feeling in the hair at the base of the skull, was able to grip you there pain-free and pretty much toss you around like a doll. And you had that firm post to exert pressure against and thrust backwards. Win-win, I’d say.
OK. LW4; ; second question;
Assuming there's a fraction of motivation left, to move this Mamoth Mess, that Both of you have created,
You gotta get real firm with this Woman.
No more BULL SHIT is allowed.
Chop Chop.
You gotta be reared a Catholic, Right? All this self sacrifice is so fucking familiar ...
You sit your Wife down, when your child is elsewhere, and you read her the Riot Act.
This is what's gonna happen, from here on in- or You're Walking.. And You'll be taking the child with you.
Because she is in no fit state to look after the child by herself. Once she gets her shit together, by herself, then shared custody will be arranged.
You give her No Room to squirm. It's either she start to pull her finger out, and you'll support her while she does it.
Or you're walking. And she gets to pull her finger out, all by herself..
The Conditions you set? I can leave those to you, No? This is the time you bring your Masculine Energies way up to the fore.
And Yes, I give you a pass to go to a Sex Worker. It will strengthen you, and you need strength now. So, we'll just call it therapeutic services..
Good God, boy. WTF? How did it all get to this. Give it one more sharp , strong effort to help clean up the mess, you both created.
And I wish you good luck.
You got courage and strength.
You've shown that already. Along with a dose of stupidity. But stupidity can been seen for what it is, once you taste fun again, which you will when you go to the Sex Worker. Just don't jump over the fence, till you give her one last big shot. Or you'll feel bad later on.
Um, thank you, Cat Bro, for giving me some food for . . . er, um . . . thought.
I hope you own your own rope.
“It will be long and hard. There will be ‘in’s’ and ‘out’s.’
There might be blood and sweat, but there will be no withdrawal.”
Winston Churchill
Do you actually think that everyone who had sex as a teenager with someone over 18 is lying if they say it wasn't harmful to them? Is Dan lying? And you think the reason they're lying is social pressure? You're a fucking lunatic. If an adult says that the sex they had as a teenager with an adult was not harmful, it's extremely arrogant and condescending to refuse to believe them. You're ignoring the facts and imposing your sex-negative sensibilities on other people, people you've never even met.
Your analogy with gunshot victims is ridiculous. It presumes the truth of your position that adolescent sex must always be harmful, like gunshot wounds.
I'm not saying statutory rape law should be changed (except perhaps a 3 year or greater difference in age). Children and adolescents do need to be protected from exploitation by adults, but it is psychologically untrue and psychologically harmful to assume that teen sex is always damaging. This assumption is based on nothing more than sex-negative, arbitrary, religious morality.
With you all the way, Alison @289, except for this: "Thinking it's a good idea to fuck the kid is completely self-absorbed." Well, possibly, but once again in my case I would have been okay with that. Win-win, I say.
This is in no way to be taken as a challenge to existing statutory rape laws. The necessity is clear. Just a note that where I am, sixteen would have been legal, btw.
And now, back to our regularly scheduled sexy times....
Bridge is at least twice as involved as whist. As a friend, I'd advise you not to select any partnership game if you could avoid.it. A round game would be more suitable for someone of your reported experience.
Do you have a black or gray turtleneck? That’s how you keep showing up...
I agree with @288 Bloomer. If I got ripped off in a real estate deal or something, even though I was unaware, someone can sit down with me and explain how they took my money. If an older lady took my virginity as an under-17 teen, I’LL tell you if it was a harmful experience. When does my experience, the one that was supposedly impacted, get credence?
You booked your cabin, yet?
Quite the ladies man.
Good to see you back
Actually it’s a perfectly good analogy. Waving guns around and firing just because it’s fun sometimes causes a fatal gunshot wound, sometimes a nonfatal gunshot wound and sometimes nobody’s hit at all and it’s just good fun. Outside the US and Afghanistan we don’t say that waving guns around and firing for fun is ok on the grounds that it doesn’t always kill someone. Likewise we don’t say that it’s ok for older people to have sex with much-younger minors on the grounds that it isn’t always damaging. Even if it’s nonfatal/nontraumatizing 95% of the time we think people should just show some restraint and not do unnecessarily dangerous things.
LateBloomer @298,
Depends on the age. When the kid is 15, lay off and watch fondly from a distance. Maybe say reassuring things. When the young person is 17, campsite rule. Don’t get them in trouble, which means don’t get yourself in trouble because that would place a burden on the 17-year-old they really don’t need. At 16? That’s a weird age. They definitely need good legal protection — it’s a great age for recruiting sex workers. If a young person runs off to live with a pimp and the parent calls the cops, the cops have to be able to say more than, “It’s your child’s choice, they’re of the age of consent and they say that guy’s their boyfriend.” But a sixteen-year-old does need to be able to control their own body and make decisions about who gets to touch it.
Note that I said “good idea.” Not that it’s necessarily harmful but it’s a selfish risk to take. There are ways for an older person to acknowledge and respectfully accept the sexuality of a much-younger minor without having sex with them.
Disclosure: I had sex once with a much-older adult when I was thirteen. It wasn't enjoyable but neither was it traumatizing. I even learned some important lessons that have stood me in good stead since then. I could have done other things though. And having an ongoing sexual relationship with a much-older adult would definitely not have been good even if I'd wanted it.
@279: I have a friend who was "groomed" by a thirty-something woman when he was 14, he was excited at the time, but years later, he's had a much different approach than when we were in high school and has nothing but loathing for her. It's rarely just sex with the "cool older person", it tends to come with externalities to the fantasy that would push an adult towards a child. I'm not saying everything is trauma, but it can certainly have negative effects on a person's life.
I have no idea what you mean by “justifying an acceptable grooming scenario.”
As far as we know, this child initiated very explicitly, he noticed and enjoyed. End of story. There may well have been flirting and encouragement, conversations about how special she was and the only one who understood him, lendings of Lolita and porn videos, but he didn’t say that.
The comment I read was about a barely pubescent child selecting Hunter78 as a safe target for practicing her sexuality on because she knew he wasn’t going to follow through. As far as I can tell she was correct: he was safe. He neither pursued her nor was scandalized by her.
Grooming is something that Hunter78 would have been initiating to prepare the ground for a seduction. If the grooming is successful the child will be receptive to sexual invitation or coercion. His comment does not describe that. It may have occurred; perhaps he eventually invited her to feel his hard-on through his pants; took her home, got her drunk and raped her; or perhaps she became his wife. But none of that is in the comment.
Yes, Hunter78 has a history of assigning idiosyncratic meanings to words and phrases, constructing an improbable interpretation based on an understanding only he has, and becoming sniffy about the language police when someone tries to explain the shared meaning so that he can understand and participate.
*** *** ***
For reference, in context we are talking about “grooming” as a step in the seduction of someone inappropriately young. Not currying horses.
Wikipedia, Jerry Sandusky
Wikipedia, child grooming
Late; Proud of you.. See. Just a little variety in setting, especially nature- away from other people, so you don't get distracted- and, the murcurial qualities of us humans can once again been seen.. Just remember to do those getaways as often as you can, away from the RugRats.
If you think confronting her about it would have been appropriate, you are insane.
Pro tip for men - when a woman who is too young for you decides to show you her pussy, the appropriate response is to smile, appreciate, and do absolutely nothing else! Anything else you might do will only cause problems for you or her, but probably you.
Ven, you'd make a hell of a wing man.
A twelve year old student you are in power over?
You don't find that gross?
When did I ever say to confront her? Just that treasuring the fantasy makes for a garbage person.
Yes, I remember this exchange in Mansfield Park. Of course I wouldn't play partnered. We French have a game of cards called belote which I approximately know how to play, with partnered or not option ; alas, many players are sore losers and I've seen and been part of that kind of drama enough to not want to play partnered again - and actually, card games are all suspicious to me until I've seen that the players can contain themselves. I suppose this issue doesn't happen with the anglo-saxon manners, or does it ?
@LavaGirl
Hunter bashing ? Come on, he totally enjoys that kind of attention. You can't say he's hurt by it if he himself says he totally loves it.
Your answer to 'smile, appreciate' is correct for a fellow adult, however young s/he is, not for someone who was entrusted to you to educate or raise.
For a person entrusted to you, the correct attitude from the educator is to tell that person in no uncertain terms, but in a way that will not bring harm to the child, so obviously not in front of the classroom, that such a behaviour is inappropriate towards an educator/an adult from a child, that it exposes the child to be taken advantage of in ways that can durably harm her/him, and to keep that for when s/he's grown up.
Of course, in the case of a male teacher and a female student, that talk should be had by a fellow female teacher, with the door to the classroom wide open.
Not reacting to such a provocation was a failure on Hunter's part, from hie educative role, even more so if he showed apreciation.
@230 sissoucat: Thank you so much! I know you'll find a very special someone.
@232 & @236 LavaGirl: I'm going to have to check out Bjorg, Magic Mike and Tatum Channing.
Oooooo----what IS it about Judd Nelson's "Being bad feels pretty good, doesn't it?" John Bender and Brad Pitt's J.D.--especially undressed in a motel room? Woof!
Red, red wine is staying close to me!
@230 sissoucat: Thank yo so much! I know you'll find a very special someone soon.
@232 & @236 LavaGirl: I'll have to check out Bjorg, Tatum Channing and Magic Mike.
Ooooooo--what IS it about the moving screen image of Brad Pitt as J.D., undressed in a motel room?? Woof!
Sissoucat; I'm just the resident defender. Im up for this Month. And every other month. It's sort of a self appointed position.
Hunter under the same protection law as all the others. No discrimination against ShitHeads.
Mixed feelings — both positive and negative. Those are hard to deal with. When children (younger than he was) feel sexually aroused by the attentions of the inappropriate adult (say, a parent or football coach) we know that’s especially damaging. They feel simultaneously violated and guilty. That’s what I’d expect from the LW’s situation: a combination of “fuck, that was cool,” “ewwww, that was gross,” “I’m the only one who really understands her but I’m just a kid in high school and my own problems are more than enough for me,” “I needed a safe place to stay to get away from the drama and I didn’t get it” and “something major just happened and I can't talk to anyone about it.” He felt responsible for keeping her out of trouble, a burden a kid doesn’t need.
She’s a family friend, so hard to avoid. He didn’t go back to her then and he keeps her at a distance now. He talks about what happened using the language we use to talk about Jerry Sandusky and says he had a hard time.
We don’t know if she permanently damaged him or if the experience ultimately made him a more independent person but I’m not sure we need to know that.
My ex-from-hell ultimately taught me important things but extorted an extremely high price for the lessons. Every now and then, over 22 years later, I think I see her in the street and get all panicky. While I was certainly very damaged in the short run (a year or two) in the long run I learned to take more responsibility for myself. Still, I would not recommend her as a partner to anyone. I think “directly causing indisputable permanent damage” is a very high bar for behaviour to have to clear before it can be called shitty. “You knew better than that” is plenty high enough. The LW’s older woman knew better than that.
No, my encounter with an adult did not damage me in the short or long term. I initiated it once and I never initiated it again. He was very easy to avoid. I obviously don’t think all sexual encounters with adults are necessarily damaging to teenagers, but if someone is using loaded language to describe a relationship I have no difficulty accepting that it was a Bad Thing.
Undead ayn rand, why would fondly remembering age-appropriate teenage misbehaviour make someone a garbage person? She was both an adorable and likeable child and a hot and aggressively sexual teen or preteen. Thoughts and feelings don’t make someone a garbage person. Actions do. We don’t know what Hunter78’s actions were.
LavaGirl, yes, that was some fun imagery to ponder.
I think young people who are just starting to learn about their own sexuality hitting on older people to see what power sex has is totally normal. (By which I mean that I did it.) I don't think it requires taking the young person aside and telling them "No no, bad puppy!" Just let them try it out, and don't take advantage. That's how we learn, right?
Sissoucat - For a person entrusted to you, the correct attitude from the educator is to tell that person in no uncertain terms, but in a way that will not bring harm to the child, so obviously not in front of the classroom, that such a behaviour is inappropriate towards an educator/an adult from a child, that it exposes the child to be taken advantage of in ways that can durably harm her/him, and to keep that for when s/he's grown up.
Awesome. Except kids can have sex. With each other. Parent's responsibility to make sure they don't have kids while kids. I like the idea of tossing a bunch of condoms at them and telling them to watch their health (preg, sti's), sex should feel great don't settle for less, and watch the tendency to be talked into stupid shit while horny. I think it works better than forbidding. Poor parents.
I don't think you're awful Hun, no one's perfect. I do think people are responsible for learning from their mistakes somewhat, though.
I imagine I would raise an eyebrow and frown at any tendency to go that way, then ask another teacher what to do next time, I'm horrible at this stuff. What you're supposed to do is address the behavior, prove that you can be matter of fact about sex, that it won't get much attention but clearly state that it's inappropriate, they should have no mixed messages about this. Middle school is a little late for this so maybe a female teacher but I think a hallway chat and alerting principal would have worked.
When boys think exposing themselves to adults is cool, they likely end up in juve. When girls think it's cool, they are more likely to find someone who thinks taking the offer is ok, or can't resist the attentions of minors. "No respect for the vulnerability of minors" and "no self control" aren't good qualities in a lover, in the best case scenario. The worst case is finding a desperate sadist or pedophile. And learning to negotiate a sexual relationship with your peers is such an important life skill, an adult or boss or kid you're baby sitting or family member are all inappropriate for a reason, minors.
Harsh, which part?