And here's a reasonable step by step, in case you were to talk to another teacher about this:
https://www.bced.gov.bc.ca/sco/resourced…

Nocute - Where do the slinkys and the ski masks fit in?
Not to mention the Hungry Hungry Hippos. I save all that for intermediate training.
"I don't know what kind of weird shit you're into lady. But if you don't piss in the hippos, how do you decide who serves first?"

Cat Brother - Damn your x-ray vision! I imagine you are just as adept at stripping and discovering a body. The turtleneck will have to be black, my favorite grey has pilled, and I'm glad you like my hair. I prefer to #fuckfirst but tortuously patient anticipation can be rewarding as well. Is it too late in the year for fondue by firelight? We can discuss the finer points of knotwork, your prescription for great glutes, acro yoga, the erotic appeal of scuba gear, and I will confess a weakness for climbing harnesses.

Impressive stamina to survive Nocute with something left over.

And you're right, there are entirely too many monkeys.

But will you have room for Lava when I'm done with you? Watch out she can burn!

Sorry... interesting thread and all...but what's with his nose?

OMG that painful, motion-sick drop to the bottom of these comments? Not an improvement, people.

Dr Sean - I'm surprised Mr Savage turned down the position; it's more his speed than mine.
***
Ms Sissou - While Continentals are known for the flair with which they play at cards, it is not entirely unheard of for excitement to occur in Anglo-Saxon areas. Here in the US we had the "Bennet Murder" about eighty years ago during a bridge game. Mr Bennet overbid his hand; Mrs Bennet bid to what should been a good contract and gave him a nice dummy, but he was defeated. They quarreled; she made a remark about how badly he played bridge; he hit her; she got a gun and shot him; he died.

More recently and less violently, many of my players have been desperate to do well enough in tournaments to attain the rank of Life Master. About twenty years ago I had two players, both women in their seventies, who were taking extra practice before the weeklong tournament during which they hoped to do well enough to win the remaining few gold points they required. At their last practice session, one of the two women was saying rather nicely how she considered the other just as much her sister as either of the two she had by blood. The tournament went terribly for them; day after day they just got worse; at the end somehow during a conversation one or the other said something unforgivable. They never played as partners again, and it was three years before the less reasonable one would speak to the other in public.
***
Ms Lava - In addition to the post mention by Mr Hunter, the P word reappears in #284 in what was apparently a successful attempt to cheer up Dr Sean.

If you really intend to set up as Resident Defender, be careful what briefs you take. I need hardly remind you of Bambi Etheridge, the dangerous driver defended by Rumpole who was acquitted less because of Rumpole's brilliance than because the prosecutor saw fit to lecture the female magistrate on the hopeless incompetence of women drivers. Her gratitude expressed itself in the form of invitations to Naughty Lunches with Scrumptious Desserts and threats of ringing him at home, causing Rumpole to wish heartily that he had lost her case and that she were even then being led to the dungeons. Fortunately, on her next offence, he was able to convince her that, with her record, she needed a Queen's Counsel to defend her, and he was able to palm her off onto Soapy Sam Ballard.

Re letter 4
I like the ideas that the kid stay with the healthiest parent and not the mom by default, and considering yearly sex an extreme problem and looking for extreme solutions. Except it's unclear why this habit developed, or that his next sexual relationship would be any different. Maybe he just needs to be told it's normal to literally move apart when you've disconnected sexually. It's also ok to cohabitate and coparent and have sex with other people instead of each other, as long as both agree. It's not awful to stop having sex or stop living with your coparent, as long as the kid understands that they don't have bad parents, just a different type of family, and no one's parental rights are stepped on.

@346: "Is it too late in the year for fondue by firelight?"

Nah. I still have a raclette grill I've got my eye on as well...

@345: Exactly!

Philophile @341:

When boys think exposing themselves to adults is cool, they likely end up in juve.
Statistics please, on 12-year-olds being criminalized for flashing their teachers or the man two doors down.

And learning to negotiate a sexual relationship with your peers is such an important life skill, an adult or boss or kid you're baby sitting or family member are all inappropriate for a reason, minors.

As far as we know, this very young woman’s teacher did not blab, hit on her, have sex with her or humiliate her, so actually her choice was entirely appropriate. We can give her credit for good judgement — if she needed to go through a trampy phase she was at least being careful and safe about it.

Just think of the disaster if LateBloomer and seandr had been her classmates and she’d flashed them instead.

LateBloomer probably would not have pursued her. He might have been pleased to have been recognized as a sexual being and told everyone. He might have felt humiliated by his inability to respond effectively to her invitation. She’d be known as the one who was into LateBloomer and was turned down. It would have been a little bit of drama that she didn’t need.

Seandr would have eagerly followed through and happily shared his exploits with all his BMX buddies, but at twelve or thirteen she didn’t actually want to have sex with seandr or LateBloomer or Hunter78 or anyone. She just wanted to know that she was hot and sexy and in control.

So no, her peers would have been inappropriate. Her teacher was fine. And if you think she had never heard of child sexual abuse I believe you’re mistaken. She didn’t need Hunter78 to tell her that her behaviour was risky: she knew that perfectly well. That’s what made it fun.

*** *** ***
For those shocked at this barely-pubescent child’s forwardness and choice of target:

There are a few basic reproductive strategies available to heterosexual women. One is to have sex with promiscuous men with the hope of having promiscuous sons and lots of grandchildren. Another is to couple (monogamously or not) with an unproven peer who is likely to be around to parent their children through adulthood. Another is to couple with a proven elder whose genetic potential she knows to be good and who can provide well for her and their children in the present. (Many women who choose the latter strategy are smart, independent survivors. They can negotiate the world of sophisticated, accomplished people with ease and they are prepared to be widowed.)

These strategies aren’t mostly conscious choices, obviously. In our culture we privilege peer-to-peer pairings, disparage reproductive promiscuity and pathologize a young woman who seeks out men old enough to be her father. But if we can accept that these variations are legitimate parts of the human repertoire we can deal with them matter-of-factly and without judgement.

Can I take over the board with geekiness? It was a very special pi day yesterday, I didn't realize until last night. I didn't eat my pie at 9:26, sigh. Next year will be the rounded version!

I did manage to get in a rousing chorus of Science Genius Girl with my sister:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cm2lvtJH…
Pi is done to 30 digits at time stamp 1:17
Or the perhaps squickier cloning version, "When I clone a human being, it will want to hold my hand":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3EHBPsT…

I want to see Geek vs Christian reality tv. Stick some in a house together, I think it might be more entertaining than King of the Nerds.

Someone please stop me before I build up steam.

Statistics please, on 12-year-olds being criminalized for flashing their teachers or the man two doors down.
No.
I don't appreciate Alison speaking to me. She asks me for stuff but doesn't respect my feelings. How many times to repeat...

Do we all remember this great number?
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lTISKUGwKY…

What do statistics have to do with feelings? Either it’s usual for twelve-year-old boys to be criminalized for flashing adults or it’s not.

Disrespecting boundaries, ignoring hurt feelings, throwing around easily disproven accusations, telling people what they believe, criticizing them for things they did not say but you magically KNOW they believe. It's all disrespecting feelings to me. I'm not getting into some lame back and forth. I will point out the most glaring contradiction.

but at twelve or thirteen she didn’t actually want to have sex with seandr or LateBloomer or Hunter78 or anyone

She didn’t need Hunter78 to tell her that her behaviour was risky: she knew that perfectly well. That’s what made it fun.

I don’t see a contradiction. When you play with fire you don’t want to burn the house down. Pushing limits while needing to contain the fire is what makes it fun.

@sissoucat:Of course, in the case of a male teacher and a female student, that talk should be had by a fellow female teacher, with the door to the classroom wide open.

Perhaps, but if I were in Hunter's shoes, I'd think twice about sharing this with anyone at the school because there's too much of risk the narrative would get flipped around into its standard form where the adult male is at fault, in which case you could find yourself on the national sex offender registry, your life forever ruined.

Keep in mind you'll have women among staff and parents with chips on their shoulders towards men (hi @undead!) who will be convinced a priori that you are guilty of something. You might have an irate father who is greatly offended at the suggestion that his innocent little girl could behave like such a mynx. Then there's the school gossip mill to contend with.

No thanks. I'd have handled it the same way Hunter did.

@346 Funny you should mention acro yoga (which my Spellcheck changed to Afro-yoga, is there such a thing?), as a fairly recent gift-to-self, got the whole Omni-Gym rig, padded leg straps and everything. Thinking about certifying as a teacher, not sure if this is the year. There’s some pretty cool instructional vids on Youtube..
Would that be cheese fondue? Kind of past that here, it’s my impression that fondue’s always in season over there.
@361 Dead on. There’s a reason I don’t train children, even if you have insurance up the wazoo, just one incident can ruin your life. My clients often bring their kids in for just a moment or to wait; they’re normally perfectly fine, but the behavior of one 11-year old made my fucking blood run cold, and made me very glad that I’m good pals with her mom.
There’s no worse insult in our culture than ‘child molester.'

Thanks nocute. Long time coming (so to speak). You said something in another thread about one's needs not being taken seriously being almost as bad as the not having enough sex. I'm having a hard time letting go of how long it took to push against that seeming indifference; but other than that, everything is james dandy.

Alison, did we go to school together? I'm thinking you were the smart nerdy one up at the front in grade seven.

@seandr
Yes, obviously my advice is given for a teacher in a school where sex ed exists and female colleagues are not sex-negative harpies, and a chat with a colleague about a student doesn't land you on any sex-offender list. So, in what I, as a European, would call a normal place, but I'm aware such a place may not exist in many parts of the US, especially the Bible Belt. No wonder the kids there become oversexed so young.

Seandr,
I'd think twice about sharing this with anyone at the school because there's too much of risk the narrative would get flipped around into its standard form where the adult male is at fault

Would you want an adult male to smile at your 13 year old girl if she flashed him?

Documentation actually helps cover your bases. If Hun had bad judgement or bad luck enough to find himself alone with her at some point, and she hit on him to the point he was forced to reject her, she'd react like a 13 year old who can't get her way. Tell the principal she was molestered. Hunter goes to jail unless he shows that he addressed it by the book.

Plus every adult who simply smiled at this kind of invitation gave permission for the behavior to continue with the next appealing adult. They taught the kid it was ok, likelier to result in positive attention than harm. Somewhere down the line, someone will consider pedophilia to only apply to prepubescents, or severely shame them, or tell an authority figure they were harmed, or mistake the kid for a disabled adult and accidentally commit statutory rape, or call the cops.

On the ball, Hunter.
My concern with this child, would be to wonder if such behaviour indicated sexual abuse at home.
It is not sexually appropriate behaviour for a girl that age, as I think we all concur.
Leaves a Teacher in a difficult spot. Let it be, just don't feed it. Or Recognize this girl's disturbance and tell someone.
Dicey.

@Philo: Yay for pi day yesterday! I join you in retroactive geekdom.

*decides not to discuss how many digits of pi she knows*

@325: "Undead, any insight into the process that got your friend from "This is awesome!" to "That fucking harpy"?"

Sorry, I typed up something longer on my phone yesterday that got eaten by the new system.

The high school friend was excited at feeling "special" to have adult attention before and during the relationship, but even at the young age he recognized that there was something screwy with the grooming partner, the relationship ended with control and manipulations, and I wasn't close enough to him until after to have these conversations. Still being taller and built, he ended up attracting attention from other older women at that point, but was at least able to handle the relationships on his terms and better determine what was safe and healthy for himself. I hadn't heard anything about her until ~20 years later when some clenched-teeth utterance about her came and went in a flash. A happy marriage and gorgeous kids, but he still holds nothing but contempt for her. For general concern I'll ask him if everything's okay if this ever comes up again, but I had thought that the general peace had helped to bury her machinations. Maybe she tried to connect with him on social media or otherwise intrude again upon his life and these feelings resurfaced, I'm not sure.

@361: "chips on their shoulders towards men (hi @undead!)"

Oh come on, I seriously don't. I find certain male behaviors/attitudes shitty, but they can certainly be present in women as well. I don't agree or disagree with a LW based on their sex, but by their actions, which we often disagree about, but I am consistent in my application of disapproval.

@Ciods - Pi is a cool one. I like e more these days. I can't watch the movie Pi anymore, the lobotomy scenes are too much. NY Times had an article for Pi day but the title pissed me off! "Math is confusing" or something.

I find certain male behaviors/attitudes shitty
Am I awful to laugh?

Ms Cummins - Her choice was more *lucky* than *appropriate*. You seem to suppose that any woman who wants to feel hot and sexy and in control is entitled to such a feeling. I've no particular inclination to want such a thing denied if there are no likely negative consequences to anyone else. *In control* seems a bit slippery, though, as there are likely other people involved. My main, thought, though, is that, having suffered no ill consequences from flashing Mr Hunter, she quite likely escalated. You'll forgive me, I hope, for being rather less concerned with prioritizing the reproductive strategies of the OS female.

@373: "You seem to suppose that any woman who wants to feel hot and sexy and in control is entitled to such a feeling."

Well, so long as it's not externalized on "authority figures", sure.

But kids aren't fully rational beings, so why worry about what they ought to be doing?

Not that fully-grown adults are necessarily rational or responsible, but the trend moves along that vector and the expectations should be different.

I defense of age different relationships, "Harold and Maude" was on the other night. I don't remember how old Harold was, at least 16 I guess. Well worth watching.

I don't dare read this. Might corrupt my mind. I forget. America.

vennominon @383,

Yes, appropriate in retrospect. It might not have worked out that way. We can ascribe the unharmful outcome to utter luck, her own good judgement or some combination of the two.

On the other hand, targeting a classmate that aggressively would have almost certainly led to a bad outcome.

As an atheist I'd like to see TRUTH tell his wife that she wasn't his first just to shut her sanctimonious, bragging mouth. But the issue seems to be the question of what she would want. If she were told, would she say, "Why would you tell me that? I didn't want to know that!" or "I'm disappointed, but I'm glad you told me. I hate the idea of being deceived or living in a fantasy world."

He could ask that they both answer a series of questions like Would you want to be told that your mother had worked as a prostitute before she got married and had you? or Would you want to know that you had a genetic condition that would kill you before you turned 50? Perhaps from her answers to such questions he could glean whether she'd want to know his secret. The questions could be mixed in with living will issues and such. Perhaps someone could suggest a film they could watch that would allow such questions to be brought up without arousing suspicion.

@Philophile: My thinking behind the smile - when a woman offers herself to you, the gentlemanly way to refuse her includes at least a hint of appreciation or gratitude.

Whether he reports it or keeps it under his hat, it's kind of all about cutting losses (lose-lose as they say), so maybe the right decision is to find another line of work.

Or teach undergraduates, with whom he can legally enjoy the attractiveness boost he gets from being their teacher, though he should probably wait until the quarter is over.

Helmets for children are a mistake because they interfere with natural selection.

I interpreted the LW's grooming comment as a later realization that she planned to seduce him from the beginning. It doesn't mean he was harmed. All it means is that he was eased into sex by an older woman. The most common reaction to this from straight, adult men is... envy.

It's disturbing how few people recognize the damage that can be done by turning a pubescent girl's exploration of her emerging sexuality into a disciplinary issue with parents and psychologists getting involved.

Dumb question again, however late in this thread: does anyone know why two comments I made (between @327 & @328) are zeros (0)?

Anyway, Happy Ides of March, everybody!

undead @370--Well, we all blindly took our chances in first relationships--does anyone get away scot free? It sounds like the problem wan't just that she was older, it was that she was older and controlling and manipulative. Fortunately your friend, like Alison in her relationship, was resilient and learned things worth knowing because of it, which is not unusual for a first relationship. Would he have had any better things to say about her had she been sixteen instead, and controlling and manipulative? I doubt it.

Alison, how come Hunter's student gets to know she's hot and sexy and in control at my expense? Talk about entitlement. That's some drama I don't need either, thank you very much. Btw, I would never brag about female attention. It's tacky and disrespectful--and I always respect anyone with enough good taste to take an interest in me.

LateBloomer @387,

Exactly! By choosing Hunter78 instead she was showing excellent judgement on many levels. No of course you don’t need the drama. Her teacher was much better placed to keep things from getting out of hand.

It was Philophile who thought the student should be flashing you (or seandr or another peer). I disagreed.

@385, Allen;
A girl exploring her sexuality by flashing pussy at the teacher?
Right. So this same girl, she do this exploration on the bus too?
The men there might not react the same way Hunter did.
This is the behaviour of a very sexually disturbed girl. My guess is to look to dad, or uncle, or brothers or religious males- for that.

@372: "I find certain male behaviors/attitudes shitty
Am I awful to laugh?"

Did I unintentionally make a poop joke? :o

They're universal behaviors/attitudes.

Alison - It was Philophile who thought the student should be flashing you
Oh my fucking christ not again. You're wrong, please stop talking to me.

Seandr - I understand that clearly expressed attraction feels nice. Your gentleman's code makes sense to encourage that. It's specifically illegal sex, or invitations for illegal sex, that I believe should be discouraged, perhaps an gentlemanly exception could be made. There is a middle ground between approving/grateful/rewarding and shaming/blaming/punishing. Just tell them to cut it out, explain why if you can stomach it. Or do it by the book as a teacher cause jail is bad and kids are little sociopaths.

Lava I think you set a better example when you bowed out... idk... I like Harold and Maude too, that's so misrepresentative.

You're ok Hun. I agree what happened was most likely one small piece of her life. But I hope you may consider alternatives in the future.

Cat Bro - I think you should take the course. If you can handle your flyers falling completely in love with you. Can you post a good intro sequence youtube vid I can't remember any moves any more... or maybe on another thread...

Cat Bro - I tried some of this last weekend but it wasn't a good space to fall in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=toiiMR94…
I flew with an instructor a year ago and I was rubber afterward. It's an awesome way to work out.

@391: "I like Harold and Maude too, that's so misrepresentative."

It's also a work of fiction, thus the suspension of disbelief works in its favor.

Philophile, if I’m mistaken about something you’ve said then you haven’t been clear. Isn’t that feedback a person usually wants to have? (Don’t answer that.) When I discover I’ve been unclear I usually apologize for leading the person into error. (It’s okay, I don’t expect you to apologize.)

LavaGirl wrote: So this same girl, she do this exploration on the bus too? The men there might not react the same way Hunter did. This is the behaviour [sic] of a very sexually disturbed girl.

It's highly unlikely that if her behavior were brought to the attention of any kind of authority that the response would be measured, say an explanation of the risks of flirting with older strangers and implying that you are more sexually advanced than you are. It's almost guaranteed that the response would be sex-negative, hysterical, repressive, and would do far more harm than good.

And there's no reason to think her next move was to flash random strangers on the bus. She was experimenting in an environment where she knew she was safe.

Oh come on Allen. A class room is safe for flashing one's pussy?
Not any class room I was ever in.

LavaGirl @396, except that she was safe.

Besides, having a crush on a teacher is a fairly well-known trope. I don't think her behavior towards Hunter is any indication that she would flash random people on a bus. It's not impossible that she was in fact going overboard all over the place, and that she was sexually disturbed as Lava worries, but it's just as likely that she was just testing that one batch of water.

Another consideration before we advocate for taking her aside and talking to her about it--which I do understand the reasoning behind, and I think much of it is worthwhile, even though I happen to disagree--is the affect on her academics. The level of humiliation she would undoubtedly feel would almost certainly screw up that class for her completely.

I did some inappropriate crushing-on of a teacher of mine, long ago--very low-key, nothing like this girl, but still--because I thought he was brilliant and wonderful, the usual teacher-crush dynamic. Fortunately for me he completely ignored it, and not long thereafter I found a peer I was into and that was that. I am exceedingly glad he didn't decide to talk to me about it, as I had him as a teacher for a long time, and very much needed that aspect of my academics. If I'd felt humiliated--as I would have, as would have been probably appropriate--I would have never been able to learn from him again. I'm glad that didn't happen.

//effect, bugger.

398 Cynara-- You got me curious so I looked it up. In the novel, Harold is 19. Bud Cort was 23 when he played the part. The plot of the movie hinges on Harold's mother setting him up on dates because she determines it's time he was married. The detail I recalled (and it's been several years since I saw the movie) before realizing how easy it would be to find the information online was that in one of the scenes where Harold and Maude are stopped by a cop, Harold has his checkbook out to pay a bribe. When I first saw the movie as a teenager, I thought that was the sign of someone young but fairly sophisticated in the ways of the world. Also, Harold is old enough to join the army, so we know he's at least 18.

@397; safe from another teacher coming into the room? Safe from another child catching what was going on?
It is very disturbed sexual behaviour. That's the issue. This girl/ child must have been getting tampered with, by adults in her life.
Or what? This a normal display in your country? Then you guys are more fucked then I thought.

@LavaGirl
I agree with you that such a behavior makes sexual abuse spring right into my mind. Thus the importance of someone getting to the bottom of this, possibly the nurse, in strict school confidentiality, that is without telling the authority, the parents or anybody else. So, Hunter should have told the school nurse. If there are any in the US, that is. In France there's always one, and she's used to dealing with all aspects of teenagers' sexuality - including unwanted pregnancies, on which there's a consensus here that it's best for the teenager to abort as soon as it's detected.

My mind springs more naturally to the Midsomer Murder *Written in Blood* (in which a drama class one-ups their sleazy teacher in a big way; I consider this comparison lets Mr Hunter off a little lightly for enjoying the view on offer) than to automatic presumption of abuse, although Ms Lava illustrates part of why I call the incident lucky. As for Mr Gilliam's concern, I'd not *wish* her misconduct to be met with a harmful overreaction, but neither would I cry for her if it did. There are other considerations that spring to mind that, although not constituting an implication of bad character, it doesn't feel quite polite to examine in Mr Hunter's presence.

Ms Cummins' rationally-dressed endorsement feels more chilling now than it did at first.

I'm not weighing in on the appropriate reaction to a student flashing her middle-school teacher, nor the normal-ness of such behavior. I'm not here to castigate or exonerate Hunter. I'm only going to ask LavaGirl and sissoucat to stop brushing off any behavior they don't like, understand, approve or have ever participated in by dismissively attributing to being an exclusively American phenomenon. Not all American girls expose themselves to their teachers, whether or not they have crushes on said teachers or have been sexually abused or whatever other reasons come to mind. Most, in fact, do not. And I'm pretty sure that somewhere in Australia and France, a girl has flashed her teacher for a possible variety of reasons.

@400 Crinoline: I didn't realize the movie was based on a book-I'll have to check it out, literally.

I guess Harold is about 18 then, technically an adult. And Maude is just turning 80. When I watched it in the campus movie theater years ago people groaned at the scene of them in bed together, but even then I thought it was rather sweet.

@407: "When I watched it in the campus movie theater years ago people groaned at the scene of them in bed together, but even then I thought it was rather sweet."

There's supposed to be a bit of incongruity in the premise for the audience to work through, but there's no accounting for empathy, taste and maturity.

@405: "I'm not here to castigate or exonerate Hunter. I'm only going to ask LavaGirl and sissoucat to stop brushing off any behavior they don't like, understand, approve or have ever participated in by dismissively attributing to being an exclusively American phenomenon."

Independent of the likelihood of actual trolling, Hunter may just reciting things from his spank-bank independent of whether they ever happened in reality. From his proclamation that every teenage girl wantonly titpresses against their professor(s), it seems plausible that he states fantasy as fact here regularly.

@undead ayn rand: Whether Hunter ever experienced this or not, my point was that both LavaGirl and sissoucat routinely dismiss behavior they don't approve as being something that "Americans" do.

For what it's worth, several of my male colleagues report being flashed by 18-year-old college freshmen (freshwomen, I guess!), and I see no reason to think that high-school girls occasionally do it, too. Middle school seems young, but different kids go through different phases at different times (and act out differently, as well).
I remember as a high school freshman (13/14-years-old), several of the more daring and developed girls in my English class titpressed, bent waaaaay over (both from the front and the back) and otherwise tried to discomfit the new, very young, male teacher. I think it was supposed to be more about embarrassing him than because they had crushes and I know that the few I knew well weren't victims of molestation. To myt knowledge, he never acknowledged their behavior, but he blushed a lot.

Re Hunter's Dilemma/Confession/Challenge/FakeDanSavageLetter
I don't think I can speak about this topic well because I have too many stories I'm unwilling to post online. I'll say I think there's no harm in teacher/student. I've fucked teachers and students and the closest I came to unethical was my first semester TA, I went to a show with a student and he kissed me. I told him we had to wait until after the semester. I saw him a couple weeks ago and he's fine. over a decade later. I had 0 control with grading although I'm sure he got extra encouragement. I was one of the youngest in that class but the TA, it was confusing. Anyway, teacher/student is not a problem in itself. Adult/minor is. Adults are responsible for socializing minors. Before that kids are little sociopaths because people weren't born knowing the constitution etc. They want to get along with others but need to be shown how it's done in this culture. All human cultures are not the same. Adults who can forget that children are not adults scare me. By 18 they have mostly learned how to get along with their peers, in work, play and romance but beforehand... it squicks me out to expect them to act like adults, the further from graduating high school the squickier. They'll fail, they weren't born knowing much more than "be around others without getting killed", and adults are expected to correct them. For parents and teachers that's imperative. They will grow up to fulfill the stereotypes they encounter unless you can open your mouth and say "this thing you're trying doesn't work well in our culture".

I thought Harold and Maude was bittersweet. Two people who toyed with thoughts of death, attracted to each other, instilling some appreciation of life in Harold it seemed. I thought Harold was lucky he walked away able to play the banjo. Maude didn't walk away from it. I guess I can't leave this column alone.

Ms Cute - I'll pay you the compliment of being surprised you haven't received similar, however unwanted, attentions from the LUG set. Looking back, I seem always to have been mostly with rather preppy sets, so that the only flashing I can recall is that occasionally one couldn't help noticing that for some reason it was rather popular among some of the preppier males in my softball league to play commando. I'm not sure whether they just didn't care if they were noticed or if they flashed strategically.

@Alison: Just think of the disaster if LateBloomer and seandr had been her classmates and she’d flashed them instead.

Wait, what? I agree with your point about the girl choosing a safe target in Hunter, but why am I listed among the bad examples?

@LateBloomer: Btw, I would never brag about female attention. It's tacky and disrespectful

Where's the fun in that attitude? Whatever, I can usually get guys (and women) to talk about sex - everyone secretly wants to - and those are always the best conversations.

Anyway, something interesting went down this weekend that I'm dying to get off my chest, but never mind, I don't want to be accused of bragging.

Oh, c'mon, seandr. Spill. Spill. Please!

Mr Ven: While I have been the object of a few schoolboy crushes (that I could tell) now and again, there's been no sexual display. In general, when the boys like me, they get kind of cheeky with me. Which I think is kind of cute.

When I was an 18-year-old college student, a young instructor asked me out. I declined and asked him to ask me again if he was still interested when the semester was over. He was flustered, and he didn't ask me out when the semester was over; I think I had embarrassed him. When I was 20, I was full-on sexually harassed by an older professor. It wasn't cute or funny or welcomed in any way. There was no one to report it to. I finally dropped the class so as to avoid being summoned for "office hours" at which he'd lock the office door and advance, leering, on me, trying to "seduce" me. Ugh. Makes me shiver in disgust lo these many years later.

I have never had the slightest sexual or romantic interest in any of my students, and while I had the occasional crush or two through high school and college (and grad school), I never acted on them in any way. Guess I missed out!

@seandr: me, too (of probably a different sort). I guess it was a good weekend . . .

@nocute: You and Tim get together?

@nocute: The Lexus?

Okay, seandr--you got my attention, too!

Undead Ayn Rand wrote: Independent of the likelihood of actual trolling, Hunter may just reciting things from his spank-bank independent of whether they ever happened in reality.

That occurred to me too, but how to handle it is still an interesting issue.

As to the girl's behavior indicating sexual abuse, isn't that rule for much younger children? A 6-year-old knowing all about sex may indicate abuse. But a pubescent girl knowing that men like to look at pussy? I doubt that indicates anything more than access to a television.

Tim Horton and I texted but my schedule was too crazy to meet up in person. Hopefully next time!

Yes, the Lexus. I'm kind of loving driving it. It's kind of loving having me as a passenger.

Okay, that was mine, seandr; now you have to show us yours.

I apologize. Shouldn't have said you guys were fucked.
I was in a bad mood. Should remember not to come onto SL, if in a bad mood. Way too easy to let it bleed all over others.
Obviously, America is a wonderful country... We all have fault lines.

Just to get in on the helmets and tasers and scuba gear thread:

Back in the days of Usenet, and I don't even remember the group topic, someone made a comment, "Wear a fucking helmet."

Shortly thereafter, a commenter from Germany had a question. "My wife and I wish very much to know where to be purchasing such a helmet?"

@422: I have no idea how I'd handle it if I was in that position, certainly not with a leer. I had a roommate's much younger sister take a shine to me in my college years and that was freaky enough. She didnt take a polite no for an answer, I had to talk to the mother and ask for her to leave me alone. I blocked her number but many years later received a few random crank calls with (simulated) sex noises. Lord help me if I'd have even encouraged that person passively.

"But a pubescent girl knowing that men like to look at pussy? I doubt that indicates anything more than access to a television."

I don't see that as "hypersexualization" by that age, but I'm certainly not a therapist. In my earlier story, I dont know of any molestation but the family structure was unstable.

seandr @414,

Simply because I suspect that even when you were 12 or 13 you had the self-confidence and charm to respond to a young classmate’s explicit invitation. Hunter78 being subject to a taboo could be counted on to see the flash as a tease, not a direct invitation. As her classmate you would have been subject to no such taboo and things might have gotten a little more real than she was ready for.

And yes, do brag!

@427: The original hubbub was over Hunter being her teacher, not a classmate.

@nocutename: Okay, that was mine, seandr; now you have to show us yours.

Shouldn't have brought it up, but since I did, here's the Cliff's Notes version: I spent Friday evening partying with my wife's best friend after my wife went home early, and I'm still trying to sort out what happened that night, even though technically speaking nothing happened.

Unless I'm the one misunderstanding here :p

@seandr: Hmmm. Confessions of attraction? Hand on a thigh? Kisses?
Just really, really intense flirtation?
Do you think you should:
a) talk about it with her
b) tell your wife, lest it come out later and then it looks like you're keeping something from her
c) do nothing
e) something else entirely?

Maybe he saw her pussy.

@433: Ha!

Going commando is an totally American thing. Flashing one's bare pussy at someone is something extremely shocking in my culture. I've never heard of it done by French women in a context of seduction. Wearing scarcely any clothes yes, but no panty underneath, are you kidding ? Madonna used to throw her panties in the crowd, and that was the epitome of bizarre. I've heard of schoolboys masturbating in the classroom, never of pantyless girls. Flashing one's tits as someone is also something that seems routinely done in the US but isn't done in France, although it would be a lot more acceptable than flashing one's pussy. Some 20 years ago on beaches most young women were topless, but flashing someone, that's not done, really.

sissoucat, I'm 52 years old. I wouldn't know what people have--or what they don't have-- on underneath their clothes. I never wear underwear under my skirts, but I doubt anyone can tell.
With the exceptions of Mardi Gras in New Orleans and Spring Break in Mexico or Florida, women don't typically, wantonly flash their breasts. Even those who do at those venues, must number in the hundreds, not the tens of thousands you seem to assume.

Madonna is an entertainer and uses shock techniques to be provocative. You can't judge the average American by her concert behavior.

I've never seen and almost never heard of someone flashing her genitals. Unless you're talking about dirty old men flashers--exhibitionists, on whom the law frowns.
I don't recognize the version of America you seem to be presenting.

I bet you he doubled her on his BMX. Duuude.

Hmmm, Hunter. Why is it that women are always flashing you?

And why is Yakkity Sax always playing in the distance?

undead ayn rand @428,

Exactly. 22-year-old Hunter78 was safe for 12–13-year old Flasher to flash because he was a teacher and a taboo protected her from things getting too real.

12–13-year-old seandr or LateBloomer would not have been safe for 12–13-year old Flasher to flash because they would have been peers unestrained by taboo. Things could have gotten too real, both for 12–13-year old Flasher and for 12–13-year-old seandr or LateBloomer. Not worth the risk.

I’m responding to those who say that 22-year-old Hunter78 should have told 12–13-year old Flasher that if she needed to flash, to flash her peers, not him, and imagining what following that advice might have meant.

@443 cont--Seandr, who is sitting on his BMX bike casually eating nerds (orange and grape flavor), pretends it's all cool and no big deal. He leans forward on his handlebars, flexing slightly in his cutoff jean jacket, and looks the bff in the eye. "Wanna see me do an ollie?" he says, knowing how much she likes to watch guys do cool stuff.

I feel like this whole thread is a very strong statement against abstinence only sex education.

Perhaps before addressing the men training little girls to expect that their sexual expressions will be enjoyed without any genital pleasure for the poor girls. And that adult men are safe targets to propose sex to (or that proposing sex is a power play not an actual offer). Yuck! I propose an annual public service announcement in middle school that porn doesn't show people having sex for pleasure, it's for money.

Alison, I'm sorry we can't find any kind of common courtesy to communicate.

I'm curious as to why you are so demanding toward me, and why you care what I think but not how I feel. I'd be a horrible lover always complaining about your lack of cock or unattractive body (to me, I believe you get enough attention to know that's not a universal). I'm sure it would be horribly annoying. And I don't think I say especially new things but I could be wrong. And I'm not sure why you think it's ok to treat people in ways they dislike, if it's not a defensive attraction. It's all puzzling.

In answer to your question, I don't think it was a question of flash teacher or flash peer. I think it was a choice of directing sexual expression toward adult vs directing toward peer, the way it would have been expressed would most likely be different.

But yeah, children flashing each other makes me much less squicked out than children flashing adults. If they have any idea of how pregnancy works they're scared to shit of it. And if it's SS, I guess I'd trust them to figure it out. Every generation figures it out a little better I hope.

I’m wondering why the only pleasure in sex that counts should be genital.

We have a regular commenter who happily flirts and offers sex without intending to follow through, to all appearances deriving great pleasure from these verbal exchanges. She also expresses pity (and contempt?) for other people enjoying similar sexual activities not involving direct genital stimulation. It’s very odd.

Philophile, you’re right, I don’t care how you feel. In general on comment boards I try to avoid worrying about protecting people’s feelings. It’s too easy to change the subject to feelings when questions of fact come up.

Commenter: Smoking is very good for your lungs.
Alison Cummins: No it’s not. Why would you think such a bizarre thing? [Prepares lecture on how we know smoking is bad for our lungs, with references.]
C: It’s my opinion! I’m entitled to my opinion. You’re very mean!

I try to do this even when feelings themselves are the subject. Eudaemonic talks about his own feelings and projects them on all men. I’m perfectly happy to talk about his feelings as long as we’re clear that they are his feelings and not the feelings of men who claim different feelings.

Commenter: The moon is bigger than the stars.
Alison Cummins: Yes I can see that it looks that way to us. Do you think the moon is actually bigger than the stars or do you think it’s possible to have a perspective in which stars are bigger?
C: You’re nitpicking in bad faith! You don’t actually want to talk about astronomy, you want to attack me!

I told my husband when we first met that I would not take responsibility for his emotions. It’s one of the reasons he married me.

I manage my own emotions, well or badly you can judge. I’m more interested in what people think because I can learn something.

EricaP is really good at emotions. I admire her work.

Philophile, I agree that children flashing adults is squicky.

Alison, perhaps I should confess that I'm honestly not AI. I am a run of the mill human being with feelings that mess with my brain's ability to process smoothly and efficiently, or that motivate me to do things. I don't communicate because I am alive, I communicate because I want to talk to people. I hope you can incorporate the idea that humans have feelings even online so it makes no sense to ignore them and interact with people in ways they don't like. I think I just need direct questions and good points acknowledged, if you'd like to get my opinion on something specific. Flattery and please and thank you help too I think. Anything else I tend to ignore or deride and that's where we run into trouble.

With me... You honestly can't get many good thoughts out of me if you do things I dislike: I quoted you this last fall:

"The reverse can also be true when people explain their thought processes to INTPs in terms of subjectivity and feeling. Imagine an immensely complicated clockwork, taking in every fact and idea possible, processing them with a heavy dose of creative reasoning and returning the most logically sound results available - this is how the INTP mind works, and this type has little tolerance for an emotional monkey-wrench jamming their machines."
http://www.16personalities.com/intp-pers…

I am an impatient person on top of my personality, and I prefer to work happily and efficiently if I have to talk to people. Without agreeing on a common courtesy that prevents insult on both sides, you're getting nothing from me. My brain doesn't work that way. Although I've noticed that when you put thoughts out there in a way I don't consider horribly insulting, I feel like addressing them sometimes, stating what I believe instead. Most of your posts to me except the last couple make me feel violent to read, they seem to demand service without offering payment. Very dictatorial and emotionally messy. The last couple... I felt like responding I guess. I guess you can decide if it's "taking responsibility for my emotions" to develop a common courtesy to talk to me or not.

Hunter - sorry, but as a teacher you screwed up big time. Teachers of kids under 18 have a legal and moral responsibility to act "in loco parentis" - i.e. in the place of the parent of their students. That includes creating a classroom climate in which it is crystal clear to all students that exposing any body parts that should remain covered according to the school dress code is out of the question. You would not want your 12 year old daughter flashing you, I suspect.
I say this as a teacher with 20 years experience across grades 3 through 12.

@245 ask Genarlow Wilson if two minors are allowed to have sex with each other.

Since we're on the subject of exposed pussies, I'm obligated to link to this Amy Scumer sketch.

I am enjoying this thread so much! Thank you all.