Columns May 20, 2015 at 4:00 am

Car Talk

Comments

1
WOW---! I'm not a parent (thus, my posted auntie status), but shit! I agree--NO BUTT TOYS for 5 year olds indeed, regardless of gender---and for the exact reasons Dan has stated and strongly emphasized. You're right, Dan---HISMOM's letter does read a little like Right Wing Conservative fear mongering to me, too.
2
@1, Part II: HISMOM, I'm not offering you any advice; just commenting on Dan's response to your question about your 5 year old son's bathtub activities.
3
I have many crunchy parent friends. I'm a much more traditional parent. (Not in the sense I hit my kid or have traditional "values" I mean, I actually make my kid aware that they are not a precious snowflake to anyone in the world but me. To some people this makes me a monster I guess, but I digress.)

These overly crunchy parent friends of mine cannot fathom just telling a kid "Do not do that, you're too young to understand the danger. Stop it. STOP IT."

It's not going to damage them. I was ACTUALLY brutally abused as a child and I turned out fine. I'm not recommending it. But telling a kid no, and telling them they can't do anything they want isn't going to rupture their sense of self.

This might sound "fake" to Dan, but I know lots of people who would have this as a real dilemma.
4
I've never used a dating profile (I married the woman I met in college before online dating was much of a thing) but I'm trying to imagine a scenario in which someone has a problem with too many trans people responding to a dating profile. I wouldn't want to date a transwoman either (I'd only want to date ciswomen, and I only wish the best for trans people in their own searches for love) but it doesn't seem plausible that one person would have all that many trans people responding, given that they are a relatively small proportion of the population.

Yeah, don't put stuff that could be so easily construed as anti-trans, racist, homophobic, biphobic, or whatever into your profile. You will only attract bigots with that kind of stuff.
5
I'm a gay guy, pretty much a bottom. I did a lot of stuff with my butt when I was young, but never at age 5 - more like when I was in my teens.
Something's really wrong here.
6
If multiple trips to the ER aren't financially crippling enough---even with excellent health care coverage---I doubt that the emergent surgical removal of a wrongfully inserted or swallowed foreign object at any hour of the day or night would serve as one of life's greatest thrills for a small child, however curious. Hopefully it's not too expensive and damaging a lesson learned.
7
It's quite possible Jared. People think a sexually abused child wouldn't be "cheery" about it, or whatever word was used in the response. But if abuse is done by a loved one it can leave a child feeling very special and happy. Especially if the abuse HAPPENS to lead a child to learn about a sexual desire they would have learned about later.
8
HISMOM should treat this EXACTLY like she was baby proofing to prevent small objects from winding up stuck up his nose or in his throat: calmly pack up all of the toys that pose a danger to the child and put them away. Then, to ensure that he doesn't think he is being punished, take him to the toy store (Toys R Us, not Toys in Babeland) and get him some new toys that don't fit in any of his orifices.

Yes, yes, talk to him and explain why it's a problem etc.. But she said she has already done that and he didn't stop. Because of course he didn't. He's five. She shouldn't make his safety dependant on his obedience.
9
@7 Yeah, I thought of the same thing, and I hope that letter is fake.

I'll wager that it is fake, though. I mean, I can definitely see a 5-year-old sticking a finger in his butt, but a toy car? In a little kid-sized butt? I'm also skeptical that a five-year-old has the physical and psychological control to relax his sphincter that much in a non-pooping situation, something that even a lot of grown-ass (ha ha) people find challenging.
10
@8 Other things besides toys are butthole sized. She can't get rid of all the small things in her home, or his school, or his friends houses.

This will just make him hide the things he likes to stick up his butt.

It will also insure he never shares with his mom again. And it will feel like a punishment no matter how many ass proof toys he gets. His toys are his things, things he likes and plays with.

She needs to follow Dan's advice. It's a safety and hygienic issue. Like hand washing and wearing a seatbelt. She needs to be practical and find out if this is rooted in abuse.
11
@9 Good point about the relaxing.
12
Seeing statements like "no trans people/no fatties/no uglies/etc" in a dating profile will always turn me off. People who use them may feel like they're being commendably blunt, but they just come across as assholes to me.
13
@12 I think it's OK to expose yourself as an asshole. I wish all assholes were so forthcoming.
14
@ 10 - Putting things that your kid will get hurt on someplace out of reach until they are old enough to use them safely is pretty standard parenting protocol. Didn't you keep the scissors put away when your kids were little?

And yes, it is about safety and hygiene. That's why you talk to your kid. And until he's a bit older, you supervise while he is playing with his hot wheels (just like you supervise while your kiddo uses scissors.)

But you don't leave them in his room (just like you don't leave the scissors in his room) if you honestly believe that the result could be a trip to the ER for emergency surgery.
15
You keep a toddler away from little objects so the toddler doesn't choke, but that's because the toddler can't listen to reason, and it's only possible because an adult almost always has an eye on the toddler anyway.

School age children are in a different category. A kid in kindergarten knows how to find (and hide in his pockets) small rocks, erasers, markers, whatever.

I also don't think it must be a sign of abuse. My kids had taken some large shits by that age -- and sometimes that led to constipation, and we followed the standard advice: apply vaseline to the crying child's anus to help the situation. A kid who got pleasure from excreting could totally figure out himself that it might be fun to play with putting things in the anus.

I would have the conversation Lang suggests. I would also reduce/eliminate the kid's privacy in the bath until he's a little older, since that seems to be associated with the activity.

Re-reading the letter, however, I'm a little dubious. What does this mean -- "Yesterday, I found my 5-year-old son putting things up his butt in the bath"?

Things? Like three little rubber duckies at once? Or one at a time, and she stood around as he took one out and put another one in? I'm trying to visualize the scene, and nothing makes sense to me.
16
So basically people should waste trans people's time by leading them on when they already know they won't be interested? How is that nicer than being upfront? Trans people don't need an insincere sympathy date!
17
I am very dubious of the first letter. I raised 3 boys and while all 3 enjoyed rubbing, pulling, and touching their penises, their butts were a no go zone. Now playing with poop was different. The youngest enjoyed his "buddies" a little too much for my liking.
18
@16 - What's "upfront" to you? If someone messages you on a dating site and you're not interested, do you tell them "no thanks, I wish you luck but I find you physically repulsive"? Unless you're an asshole, you don't, even if that's the case. (If you are an asshole, please disregard this comment.)

If a trans person who's disclosed on their profile messages you and you're not interested, how is that any different to a cis person who's not attractive to you messaging you? Would you turn down a date with someone who seemed funny, nice and maybe kind of hot because they happen to be trans?

This isn't about going on pity dates with people who you know you won't be into. It's about whether it's worth making the dating world a more toxic, harmful place to a group of people who find it pretty toxic and harmful as it is just to avoid the remote possibility of spending an hour in a coffee shop with someone you turn out to not want to fuck.
19
Dan, We did cover the dating profile question last week, and not sure if you read thru the comments on this thread. Assuming while you are on holidays, you don't- so I suggest you read @307, from last week, AxisofEagle.
It would be of benefit, I feel, if other trans women wrote in with their views.
20
@14 So every butt sized object in the house should be put away? That's impossible.

We aren't talking about something specific like scissors. A child is expected to play with toys, not scissors. (Though, on a side note most 5 year olds I know are allowed to have scissors including my own kid.) Removing a specific dangerous object that is dangerous even when used as designed is one thing. But these are play objects that can easily be substituted with anything of similar size.

So takings them away makes no sense and will only result in a feeling of punishment and resentment and will lead to secrecy.
21
I don't know which dating website all of you have in mind, but the question system on OKCupid can be used easily to rule out people. I'm pretty sure there are some questions like, "Would you date [this and that] kind of person." Answering a question like that is not an asshole move, unlike putting up "No trans people" on the front page of your profile. I'm not trans, but I would definitely suspect an asshole if I read something like this on a profile.
22
LW1, this is a weird one.
When I was living in hippy land, Nth NSW, Australia,in the 80s, kids would come and stay with us, my eldest boy must have been 5-6 yrs old.
One day, he and another boy were having a bath, and going into the bathroom, the other boy was sucking my son' s dick. I'm guessing he had seen his parents doing it. All Loose hippy land in those days. It freaked me out, kids that age. Didn't have that boy stay over again. Cannot remember how I or my husband responded.
So I'm guessing, this LW's son has witnessed something, and he's acting it out.
Straight out, I'd totally discourage it. As I would any other dangerous activity a child might get into. Not by shaming him, just telling him he could hurt himself by doing this.
23
As others have said, nobody really wins if they include "no _____s" in their online dating profile. Even something like "I only want to date fit guys" is likely to backfire. You'll get some percentage of fit guys who look at that and think that the person is shallow. You'll get some percentage of guys who the profile writer would consider acceptably fit but who self-select out of messaging.

An easier and better angle to take is simply not to reply to messages from guys who aren't fit enough for your standards. Not to mention that there's a real possibility that someone not-so-fit could come along and send a message and, as it turns out, the profile writer is willing to bend his/her preference to accommodate someone they consider really worth dating.
24
Re @22. I would have been equally freaked out if I'd found a boy putting his finger in my daughter's pussy at the age of six.
25
Can I put "no Fox News watchers" in my dating profile?
26
@19 I missed the boat last week, but here's some perspective from a trans-man (hope I'm also allowed to speak for all the trans people):

After genital reconstruction, my genitalia is 100% indistinguishable from a cisgender man with a micropenis. If I did not disclose my trans status (I always do, but bear with me), some people would probably still rule me out due to my penis size. But this is different from ruling me out "just because" I am trans. The problem with stating on a profile: "no trans people" is that you are loading up a ton of assumptions and stereotypes, and firing it over the bow at a very tiny and already marginalized population.

Many trans women who have undergone GRS are indistinguishable from cis women. So if someone says "I'd never ever be sexually attracted to a trans woman" - what does that mean? They assume all trans women still have a penis? They assume all trans women look like Jeanne Moos? They assume all trans women have baggage or other emotional drama that would come along with having transitioned?

If it's the penis thing, then saying "no trans women" is unnecessarily narrow, as many trans women would make it past that exclusion. If it's the physical attraction thing -- that's what profile pictures are for. If it's the emotional thing -- that's what using your words before agreeing to meet someone is for. You can filter out potential candidates very easily, and if you meet someone who is able to check every single box -- except for "crap, what if their genitals aren't attractive to me" -- what is the harm in having a coffee date before seeing their genitals?

People with non-standard genitalia should, and often do, disclose prior to having sex. They shouldn't be required to post it on their profile, but it can help (ie "I lost a testicle to cancer, if that's a problem for you move on.") But people with the privilege of having perfect, factory-issued equipment look like assholes if they say things like "no trans people," "no fatties," "two testicles required," "no one with scars," etc. It just makes people feel called out for being unacceptably different.
27
@4 One of the reasons it seems implausible to is that the original letter, from CIS, is probably fake. Most of the cislesbians I've spoken to don't talk about their recent experiences quite so nicely. Huh? Yeah, that's the other side of it...there has been a proliferation of translesbians looking "for love" online in the last few years and it is often perceived by cislesbians as problematic. Some of them are transphobic, some of them are not, but it is real and really happening. On my first point, though, realize this is women looking for women and there were always less of them than anyone else online. Now there's a parade of computer-literate translesbians hitting on cisdykes all over the place. So the letter could be true, too, I suppose.

Either way, of course it gives you pause because it's a peculiarly specific question about a teeny tiny percentage of people--apparently important enough, because, gosh darn, it's about lesbian transwomen and their absolute #1 position on the list of "important things"....that's right, now everyone has to help translesbians gets laid, too, by coercing the dykes into wanting them.
28
@27: The letter from CIS was probably fake because CIS was nice? Please. Perhaps your cis lesbian friends speak differently during a coffee gossip than they would if they were writing to a queer-positive sex columnist for advice.

And no one was talking about coercing anybody into wanting anybody, with the exception of one commenter on last week's thread who was clearly putting words into another commenter's mouth. Good thing you're not worried about your trans ally card, then.

Speaking of fake letters, though, I'm fairly gullible but HISMOM is screaming fake to me, only due to the "he put a toy car up his bum and took it back out again." Though I suppose the kid could have made that part up. I remember lots of jokes about putting things up butts at that age. "If it was up your butt you'd know it!" Har har.
29
Well, I agree w/NAA and disagree with Dan and everyone else who has a problem with stating preferences in an online profile. If you're so sensitive that you're going to find those limitations offensive, stop reading it & go on to the next one!

Whoops, almost forgot my usual comment: how much commission did Amy Lang earn for writing a huge chunk of this week's column?
30
@25. Permission granted.
Sorry about Rupert.
31
The midnight hour! Don't you love it?
32
Sorry. It's the Midnight Hour In Australia.
Yeah. Yeah.
33
Oh Wayne. You crack me up. In the Midnight Hour!
34
Dating site etiquette letters:
I'm a longtime fan, but I disagree with your advice to CIS, the lesbian who wanted to add "not into trans women" to her online dating profile. I'm a straight guy, and if I met a woman online, I would want to be sure she had female genitalia under her clothes. It's a requirement for me, and that doesn't mean I'm not a trans ally. I'm not into people who don't have female genitalia—should I go out on a coffee date with a trans woman just to make her feel better?

Not An Asshole
and
I'm a cis straight woman. I went on dates with a lot of guys from dating websites (200+) before I got married. Just writing to say that I agreed with your advice to the lesbian dating-site user. I agree that putting negative/exclusionary notes like "no trans women" or "no Asian guys" in a dating profile is a turnoff—and not just to the excluded group but to those who find those kinds of comments to be mean-spirited and narrow-minded. And are there really so many trans people out there that such a comment is even necessary? Are there really that many trans people out there causing massive confusion on dating websites? And honestly, if someone is trans and you wind up meeting them for coffee, what would be the big deal anyway? It's just coffee! I don't understand why this would be such a huge problem.

Straight Chick In DC
Hmm.

I am not trans, but I am something that is (unfortunately) considered not desirable by many online daters: I am not white. Back when I was single, I admit it got to me to see so many profiles-- both white and nonwhite-- that were only looking for white guys.

However, I would much rather know someone's racial preferences up front. It takes time and effort to chat someone up enough to get that first coffee date, and I don't want to waste my time on someone who would categorically exclude me. And whom I would categorically exclude, based on that racial preference. :/
35
M? Dusky - Would that rule out the hatewatchers? On other sites, I occasionally see posts from people who enjoy hatereading Mr Savage, and most of them seem not incompatible with those who can't even bring themselves to hateread (though I doubt most of the claims they make of shouting better advice at their computers, samples of which are almost never supplied).
36
I have a different perspective. I am a transgender woman (pre-op) and I date men. I have been on a dating website for more than a year, and have had good and bad experiences. I have a profile, where I disclose enough to be honest with guys I might possibly date. Honesty just makes life easier and saves everyone time.
I have had some bad experiences. I have met guys on the site, then later met them for coffee. With a couple of guys, we clicked, and had subsequent dates. With others, it was soon obvious he was not right for me (usually had some fetish about chicks with dicks) or maybe he wasn't attracted to me. That is the risk we all take when dating. Just general frog kissing.
But what I soon learned is how painful it was to get to the point of "having coffee" only to find out the guy had "issues." Now having transitioned to the pink team, I was surprised to see how much emotion I invested in thinking about, planning for, dreaming about and hoping for the coffee date. Am I a fool to put so much dreaming and hoping into a simple "coffee date?" I suppose. But I do it every time. I build the guy up in my mind to be the perfect guy we all want, and then when it all blows up, my heart just aches.
So, do not think it is a matter of no importance that you have a coffee date with a transgender woman, and then you get up and leave in some useless rush to get away from her. Don't tell yourself that dumping her before the coffee even gets cold is preferable to honesty. Being treated that way hurts. Really, I would prefer you just put "Seeking cis-gender woman" into your profile, and save me a lot of heartache. Just be honest. That's all I ask.
37
Dating profiles are basically Help Wanted ads. Why on Earth would someone feel bad because other people are looking for something else than what they are? I'm overweight and it doesn't bother me in the least to see adds that don't want "fatties" and thanks for the clarification. Makes it a lot easier. I'M a six foot tall female, born this way, and I don't find 5'5" guys a turn on. An ad that is looking for gay males excludes me right out of the ball park. Is that mean spirited? Are my little feelings hurt because people get the yucky sat the idea of sleeping with a woman of a fat person? NO. Grow some skin people. The world will never take you under it's protective wing. By not "getting hurt" by the anonymous and impersonal actions of strangers we'll all go a long way in having a better day. -----signed An inveterate old school Fag Hag
38
I don't understand why this dating site issue is so complicated.

Blanket exclusions are just not necessary. If someone responds to your ad that you aren't into then a "no thanks" or even just not responding is fine. You don't have to say, "no black guys". You just pass when a black guy contacts you. And who knows, maybe the next black guy to actually contact you will be the exception you never considered could happen?

I don't see anything wrong with stating preferences. They might let someone who might be hesitating to respond to your ad the courage to do so if they know they actually have the characteristics you particularly like. I know a fair number of gay Asian guys who assume that white guys aren't going to be into them unless they go out of their way to make it clear because so many white guys actually aren't into Asians. But stating a negative is just not necessary.

And if a transgender person responds it's little different. The only difference is if they don't disclose they are transgender and you can't tell you might end up going on that magical coffee date. I understand what Mistress Joan said above, but also she said she makes it clear she is transgender before the coffee date. I think any transgender person who doesn't do so understands that if they don't that coffee date might end early.

In the end however there is little to be gained by barring certain people from even thinking they can reply to you when you are not under any obligation to respond, much less actually get together with someone who contacts you through a dating site.

And honestly, as a Caucasian, cicgender gay male if I saw "no blacks" or "no Asians" or anything similar I wouldn't respond either. It's not necessary and doing it says something about how your mind works.

No one has to date or sleep with anyone they don't want to for any reason. But you don't have to be a dick about it.
39
Ok, here are my thoughts on the whole "No trans women" thing. If I were to go out for a coffee date with a trans woman and we hit it off and started dating, and then after a few dates were at a point where sex was on the table, I would be upset to learn that the woman I was with had male genitalia. It's not "just coffee" because that coffee could lead to more dates, etc... before the the "trans conversation" needs to happen.

On the other hand I do understand that life is already very difficult for trans folks out there and I don't want to make any group feel more marginalized than they already do. It's a tough line to tow for everyone and I can understand why someone who wasn't interested in a trans person would want to make that clear without being an offensive prick.
40
MistressJoan @36 makes a good point that there could be much worse hurt feelings from a profile posted by a not trans friendly person that doesn't state that fact (and ending in a date with a trans person) than the hurt feelings experienced by trans people (or other minorities) merely reading profiles. She also gives a good example of how to state a preference ("Seeking cis-gender woman"), rather than the harsh "No trans people". Only problem with that is most non-SL readers would probably respond to "Seeking cis-gender woman" with "Say What?"
41
A 5 year old has all the sex toys he needs on his two grubby hands.

As for how a 5 year old discovers his butt, um, I don't know how common it is in the neurotypical population but in kids with impaired impulse control such things are pretty frequent. Since 5 year olds don't have much impulse control at the high end of the curve, I suspect that it's really not uncommon for them to discover it, if they are particularly sensitive there. 5 year old girls generally discover their vulvas, after all. How sensitive are most 5 year olds? Apparently not very, or they'd all play with their butts (children with impairments don't have impulse control regarding bodily functions and can get kind of carried away for other reasons).

The impulse control will be the issue. Even if she explains the danger, he might not have the control to make good butt choices. So she might ought to keep an eye on him and make sure he keeps his fingers out of his butt. Because he might make himself sick, not because he might make himself gay.

And also, make sure to discuss his developmental progress with his pediatrician is she has any concerns.
42
Honestly, MistressJoan, I feel your misery, but I also think that anyone who builds up an upcoming first date "to be the perfect guy we all want" is going to be miserable a lot, trans or no trans.
43
Of course, better safe than sorry. It's never too early to open the dialog with your kids that starts with "here are the people who need to touch your body to keep you safe" and ends with "you can talk to me about anything that is bothering you."
44
Trans person here, although this response is so obvious you don't have to be trans to have thought of it. Instead of saying what you aren't into (ie, "no trans people" or "no fats, no femmes"), or leaving the info out altogether and then having to reject someone in person, instead just state what you are into in your ad ("assigned female at birth A+" or "into trim butch guys") and call it a day.
45
Mistress Joan

I think we all kind of do that. In an ideal world, every single hope and aspiration you have would be based entirely on reality. In the real world? That's an aspiration that's not based on reality.

You're ahead of a lot of people because you recognize that you're doing that! I think a lot of times the expectations are there but people see it as reality, and then they feel both disillusioned and lied to.

I don't know. Personally, I struggled with dating and feeling like I was not up to standards (I am a cis woman, but also socially awkward and overweight and not very "feminine." So I don't share your pain, but had some of my own).

A coffee date sounds like total hell to me. If you've figured out how to do that well, I think you're ahead of a lot of people.

Try not to be too hard on yourself. Dating really is hard.
46
Re Prefs in a Dating Ad
In the original letter, a gay cis woman asked if there were ANYTHING to put in her profile to weed out trans women, as she'd had 3 recent dates who were undisclosed trans women. She did not ask to put the phrase "no trans" in her profile, actually. So red herring, straw man, whatever.

Does she have a legit problem? I think so. I think that she's expecting to meet someone she would like to be romantic with and consistently failing, and it's understandable to feel bad about that and try to change her screening process. I think that when most people have a string of bad dates with a common factor, they try to eliminate that common factor. I'd like to see Dan field a question from a gay male bottom who keeps meeting male bottoms. If he would again prescribe changing nothing, keep sitting through unromantic dates for courtesy's sake. A courtesy that makes the people involved feel bad is not a good courtesy.

Saying "into large labia" or something would maybe help.

"And that kind of openness is a good because that kind of directness not only makes it easier for Doms to find subs and vice-versa, it also spares people who aren't into D/s play from wasting their time on people who are. " -Dan Savage
http://slog.thestranger.com/slog/archive…
47
@28: You're right on the first part of my comment; I did not articulate my suspicions well at all. The letter and response just sounded so cautious and almost silly at points that it felt fake to me.

And no, I am not worried about my "trans" "ally" "card". I've been in the so-called trenches for years and for some of us it isn't the same conversation that a lot of people are having. Some of us trans, gender variant, lesbian, gay, queer, feminist, and otherwise are tired of the ahisotrical, decontextualized, homophobic, narcissistic, misogynist crazy-making being advanced in a lot of this transactivism (Bruce Jenner's "female brain" anyone?). Just last year Savage had that incident at U of C; there's a nice piece where he lays out the situation. It's the kind of stuff queers put up with on a regular basis with certain activists.

Hell, maybe Savage gave the answer that he thought would prevent him another surge of claims that he commited a "hate crime" or "exclusionary violence". Do you think it doesn't say something to the many readers that the question wasn't handled with a simple etiquette lesson? The woman is essentially told to "take one for the team, you just might like it"...and it can easily be interpreted as a patriarchal gesture. No one would ever suggest to a cisman (gay or straight) that he should take transwomen out for coffee as part of their "allyship". In part because the sex issue isn't as pressing on that side of things and a lot because the levels of patriarchal conditioning are so profound that it doesn't ring many bells when such a thing is suggested to a cislesbian.

This is all about one group of dykes pissed off because another bunch of dykes don't want to fuck them. If a bitch don't want to fuck another bitch because she's got a dick, well, that's life in the sisterhood--get used to it. Allyship in making online dating easier for transpeople is just wingman duty. Now if you'll excuse me I've gotta go get my ally card punched because I'm dealing with those 214 bitches who came up pregnant after getting rescued from Boko Haram...
48
Dan, the letter from CIS and today's letter from NAA are helping to illustrate a point that you and some members of the trans community seem to be side stepping. Since stating that you do not have an interest in trans men/women is hurtful to the trans community and asking whether someone is trans is incredibly rude (regardless of whether they are or not) the responsibility to disclose falls on trans men/women.
This is especially the case for dating websites since there is an implicit understanding that if things work out there will be sex in the future. Furthermore, unlike socializing through school, work, and recreational activities, where people make friends and may find people to date, on dating websites there is an expectation that either you will end up dating and in a relationship or you will go your separate ways; friendship is not an expected outcome. Therefore, I consider trans to be one of many statuses that should be disclosed early and prominently on dating websites.
And just for the record, here are some other things I would expect people on dating websites to disclose early and prominently:
Asexuality
Being in an open relationship or poly
Being uninterested in having children or already having one or more.
Infertility
49
Haven't any of you heard of pheromones? Now I know that the online dating scene is primarily done by looking at a photo, the age and the preferences of the person according to their profile, but pheromones will decide things for you that a photo or your own ideas of what you like won't! What we really need is to meet people more often in the flesh before making up our minds!
I mean, I have seen people in photos who I would DIE for...but when I met them, meh! And the opposite has happened too. A person who thought he would never be interested in someone my age, when he met me at a party, just couldn't say no! In fact, HE jumped on ME - much to his AND my surprise.
Many years ago I found myself asked by someone to spend the night. He was good looking, but a little too effeminate for my taste; nevertheless, I agreed, mainly because it had been a long time since I'd gotten laid. In other words, my "enthusiasm" was minimal - until we got into bed. He touched my shoulder, and from that moment on the chemistry was so electric that I have NEVER had a more exciting time. I've had more satisfying sex with lovers, but for sheer excitement? Never - and with someone I almost refused, because of my preconceived notions.
So - refusing to meet people because they are trans - or Asian, or Black ,or effeminate or what have you - is really doing BOTH of you a disservice. The chemistry that might flare up between you will never get a chance to kick in.
And then you might find yourself saying "Gee, how come I don't meet anyone who rocks my boat...?
Well DUH!
50
I still disagree with Dan about the Not An Asshole thing, there is nothing particularly friendly about wasting a trans persons time by going on a date that you know is going nowhere. If a trans person wants to hang out and chit chat that's fine but if you are meeting on a dating site the reasonable assumption is this person might want to bang you someday. If that's not the case it is only polite to let them know in advance. I don't think there is anything about the history of violence and oppression towards trans people that means that they want pity dates or to be led on and repeatedly blown off post-date by well meaning liberals out to prove what great allies they are.
51
I really don't see how "I'm not looking for a trans woman" is in any way equivalent to "no uglies," "no fatties," "no short guys," "no small dicks," etc. Trans woman is a gender category, not an aesthetic one.

What would you think of a straight man who felt insulted when a lesbian didn't want to date him? What you call that lesbian "narrow minded"? She'd be pointing out a category mismatch, not calling the man ugly. If a trans woman is a category mismatch for the her, how is that any different?

If dating within a single gender really is "narrow minded," then dating sites shouldn't list Orientation" or "Gender." But those are obviously important things to know...Because dating sites are supposed to help people match up well, not to conceal the most basic incompatibilities.

Obviously, there's no need for anyone to be insulting in a dating profile. But neither is there anything gained by moving the revelation of incompatibility from a profile to a mismatched coffee date. And if there's nothing wrong with dating within a single gender category, there's nothing wrong with making that clear up front. Indeed, that's considerate behavior.
52
Straight Chick in DC here- and I couldn't agree with #49 more. And I might add, as others have stated above, if you don't want to meet someone because you don't like their looks, their politics, their body type, their race, their religion, or whatever, then just don't answer such people's emails/messages when they make contact. Making negative statements on your profile is just RUDE and makes you look superficial. Unless you want to attract other rude and superficial peeps, in which case make your exclusionary list nice and long so the regular folks can weed you out! And for those people who are single- try going outside your comfort zone once in a while. As KenelC says, you might be in for an extremely pleasant surprise! If you set up initial first dates for a brief coffee or a drink, what do you really have to lose? (Despite what one of the posters above says, most people can overcome not being asked for a second date after one brief first coffee/drink date. Its called being a grownup.)
53

Women with vulvas vs.women without vulvas is not a gender distinction.
54

I also want to point out that she said that she was never *attracted* to transwomen, not that she was getting to bed with them and finding issues there.

So really, this isn't about genitalia. This is about deciding based on a few experiences that she will never be attracted to a transwoman.

I don't imagine there isn't a lot of stereotyping and generalization involved in the choice. Would you decide based on a few anecdotes that not a single person of some other group could be attractive?

I am a ciswoman, and not unattractive, but I never really took on a lot of feminine mannerisms. I bet there are plenty of transwoman lineups that nobody would be able to identify me as the birth female. What does not being attracted to transwomen even mean?
55
@49 - Amen. I met a woman who was considerably older than me and something about her drives me absolutely insane - must have her all the time. Fortunately the feeling is mutual :)

And as @53 points out, this is not a gender issue. Trans women are women. This is about The presence or lacking of a Y chromosome (except in very very rare cases) and the associated morphology. Gender and Sex are not the same thing.
56
What I've seen backs up much of Ms Cass' posts regarding the dynamics of TL/CL conflict. It's unfortunate that the centring of trans voices has occasionally reached the extent of silencing other voices. A big part of one major conflict I've seen settled on the question of whether lesbians who weren't attracted to trans women ought more properly to be considered V*philes.

But I wonder, though - Ms Cass mentions [...a parade of computer-literate translesbians hitting on cisdykes all over the place.] which makes me wonder to what extent any of them are deliberately seeking cis partners. (Shades of Mr Savage's infamous recommendation that bi men date other bi men, but I wonder what Ms Cute, who seems the most severe about preference expression in profiles, would say to a "Seeks Same" from a trans lesbian.)
57
@51 No, trans women are women, so it's not a gender issue. It's a sex issue as in X vs Y chromosome. It's about genitals if they haven't completed gender re-assignment surgery, and if they have, then it's just a preference for women that have a history of always being women. Or it's about the person not seeing trans women as women, in which case the trans ally card needs to be revoked.
58
I feel cheated this week and ask for my money back. First letter is likely to be a fake as the big savage himself is also stating, while the other two are nothing new and are only there so that he can tell all of us, "See? I gave the right advice to someone a week or two ago."
Pretty lame.

60
So why is everyone so sure the first is a fake? Because there aren't really moms who would give a 5 year old a butt toy?

I gave up predicting what other people will do. People are weird.

But that does seem extreme. On another note, I'm really glad to be able to pass on male masturbation questions to my husband.
61
"...might spare you from the horrors of having coffee with one or two trans women over the course of your dating life but that will definitely make every trans woman who sees your profile feel like shit." This is a MUCH clearer explanation, and the one to CIS was clear enough. I'd still like to hear from trans individuals on this matter, but so far I think we're good.

It reminds me of a study that I read about in one of the Freakonomics books. They'd seen that even white people who put down "any race" on their profile still mostly dated other white people. They were indicating liberal political attitudes, not actual desire to date someone of another race.
62
Yep, I hang out with really liberal people, but I'm still in a tiny minority of cross-cultural marriages. And my kids still get asked ridiculous questions. ("what are you? " is always good. My favorite was" is she half something? ")

None of them would ever admit, even to themselves, that they have a preference, though.

I live in a metro area where caucasians are not a majority. It takes planning to avoid dating POC.
63
@62 - is that a response to someone? Or is this a new week of Estariage Love?
64
@49: At the same time, there are actually people to whom we *know* we'll never be attracted. For instance, I'm a straight dude, which means I will never be attracted to a guy. Sure it's possible I'm actually bi and just haven't met the right guy yet, but at this point-- after interacting with thousands if not tens of thousands of people without ever being drawn to a dude-- I feel confident identifying as straight. So categorically excluding men from my (hypothetical) dating profile is not being narrow-minded; it's just letting guys know not to waste their time.

I've never dated a transwoman (to my knowledge), so I don't know how my dick would respond to one. Were I suddenly single, I'd be willing to give it a shot. And if there were no attraction, I'd probably try again-- I find lots of ciswomen uninteresting as well. However, if I meet enough transwomen without ever being interested, I might reasonably conclude that my dick does not respond to transwomen like it does not respond to guys. Doesn't make me close-minded to admit it to myself, or to use that as a filter (though perhaps not on my profile). It just means I'm honest about my preferences.
65
@63: Probably to 61, since it's discussing exactly the same topic and came immediately after it?
67
nah. MrE.... that is way too obvious. I object.

i dont think i can GoldenRule this week..... so perhaps i should just stay quiet... lol
68
Still with this?

Look, CIS has every right to date or not date whomever she pleases -- the heart wants what it wants.

What she does *not* have a right to do is to get bent out of shape because a total stranger responding to her profile might not correctly guess her UNSTATED preferences.

Furthermore, maybe they don't need to be stated, and maybe shouldn't be. There are an awful lot of people out there, and statistically, at least some of them are going to be out of a person's preferred demographic. So? Just don't message anyone to whom you're not attracted, and don't respond if they message you. It doesn't require a reason or an explanation -- or if you feel you absolutely MUST say something, stick to generics like, "I don't feel that we're a good match, but good luck in your search".

And if it gets to the point where you're meeting IRL? Any person (trans, cis, or otherwise) who is old enough to participate in online dating has almost certainly had a meet and greet that didn't go anywhere, for any number of reasons, or for no specific reason, other than the chemistry just wasn't there. Maybe CIS won't like the next person she meets up with. Maybe the next person she meets up with won't like HER. Big deal. It's a pleasant chat over a cup of coffee. At worst, you've wasted a half hour.

Assume that the purpose of the meet and greet is research -- not necessarily finding The One -- observe the basic safety precautions, and let it go at that.
69
As a short, straight man I can see both sides of the "whether or not to state preferences/dealbreakers" debate. Looking at dating sites makes me feel completely undate-able: Tall men only; must be tall; 6' plus, ad after ad. I start to figure that even women who don't state the preference must feel the same way. Individually these women are all doing the right thing in being honest and not wasting my time but the cumulative effect is somewhat soul-crushing. Of course I know that I am ultimately responsible for my own insecurities and women can't help the fact that evolution has bred them to prefer tall men so there is really no one to blame. And I have even had limited success with messages like, "Hey, I don't meet your height requirement but I'm a nice guy, want to give me a shot?". So I guess I would say people should only state true deal breakers and do so as tactfully as possible. Oh and if there is any woman who actually prefers short men, you should definitely say so.
70
Reading the comments from trans women in this thread reaffirms my initial impression. As a straight guy, I don't require lesbians to go on pity dates with me in order to keep their Straight Ally card. I also don't require those lesbians to hide the fact that they're lesbians.

6'3" women who don't want to date men shorter than that? Same deal. Deceiving me and wasting my time on a pity date just to prove you're not shallow is not a good way to treat me; I'm a person, not a tool to use to get your Ally Card stamped.

The same seems to be true of trans lesbians. I guess we should be shocked? A trans woman on a dating site is probably looking for dates, not looking for people to waste her time in order to "prove" how great an ally they are.
71
63

Since the race issue was mentioned in the post immediately previous, I'm going to assume that you're actually asking "Dude, what's with all the personal data? Are you having an existential crisis or is your therapist out of town?"

Actually, the thought process was that I'd already beaten the trans/genital fixation issue to death. But in a broader context, what this is really about is judging and generalizing people, right? And while I have no experience with being trans, I do have some experience with being judged for things I can't change. So do my kids. So does most everyone. So I decided to talk about that.

Plus, I was procrastinating really hard.

72
We're back to comparing dating trans people to dating people outside your gender orientation?

Here is a question... What is it about trans people that would make them less likely to be attractive than any other person of the gender you generally date?
73
If a trans woman was a "woman" in everybodies eyes, we would NOT be having this discussion, would we?
All this jumping around the truth just causes more grief.
Yes she is a woman, yes she is a trans woman. Much better for all, if a trans woman self disclosed.
74
@25 for the Grand Salami Win on the dating issue!! Well done!
75
@70 So the whole conflict here boils down to wasting someone's time vs. being rude and obnoxious in your profile. To me the latter is more important because any date can potentially end up being a waste of time. Some things you just can't predict.
76
Honestly, like someone said in the previous thread... Your profile should be about you, not a long list of requirements for your potential mates.
77
Chairman; all you can do re Star's posts is the same as I do when nocute is on one of her ten million word rants, skip them. As I'm sure people who don't like my take on stuff, skip me.
She's new here, cut the poor woman some slack. Sorry, cis woman.
78
well... since i think i already expressed my own opinion re trans and online profiles last week (139...183...) and the 5 year old ass bandit isn't all THAT compelling... perhaps i will just sit this one out. Hey...wait a second...maybe it was the 5 year old who wrote in....because his mom keeps giving him grief about his ass fetish... and he was gonna show her dan's reply that she should go buy him a plug... but it all backfired on him....
79
It is so cute when people start social powermongering.
80
@77 cont; I also skip Mr E, when he gets that dazed look in his eyes and others.
This is a public forum, any of us idiots can join and forum.
81
lava - i think you are reading a bit too much into my 63 post... Estarianne had it far closer with the "dude, is your therapist out of town?" response....
82
Perhaps Chairman. It's just a few posters have had a go at her. Hopefully, over time, she will settle, maybe.
83
@26 moralhazard
Welcome to the forum and thank you for your well argued and beautifully written perspective. You did a great job highlighting the different shades under the trans umbrella.
84
Well, since Eudaemonic and I are the same person, it makes sense so that we'd be equally offensive.

85
Quote @72:
We're back to comparing dating trans people to dating people outside your gender orientation?

Here is a question... What is it about trans people that would make them less likely to be attractive than any other person of the gender you generally date?
Q:What is it about short men that would make them less likely to be attractive than other men?
A: The fact that they're short. Duh.

No one is saying that short men are not men, or that there is any logical reason not to be attracted to short men. That's just how some people are wired, even though they might wish otherwise. It is what it is.

Similarly: no one (here) is saying that transwomen are not women, or than there is any logical reason not to be attracted to transwomen (assuming you're into women). That's just how some people are wired.
86
Offensive Star. I can give you offensive! Ask the mob here.
87
85

What specifically is different about trans people that would make them unattractive?

That they are trans is not an answer... What about their being trans?.

Short is a physical trait. Trans is not a physical trait... That is why I asked.

Are we talking "even if I didn't know they were trans, I wouldn't be attracted to them?" or "once I find out they are trans, I am no longer attracted to them?"

I am curious. It isn't a trick question.
88
Jesus Star. Sorry, trans people being trans is an answer.
89
You don't know into what quick sand you walk Star. But please, walk on.
90
Really? So you can identify tiny a trans person on sight?
91
@87: I have no idea. As I said in @64, I've never dated a transwoman. I'd be open to it were I single, but it's possible I'd never feel any chemistry with a transwoman. I have met other people who say they're just not attracted to transpeople, much like CIS. I take them at their word.
92
I've never done any online dating before but I agree with everyone saying you should list qualities about yourself on your profile and don't see why its so difficult to look at the profile of people who message you to weed out people you aren't interested in. And people comparing not being attracted to trans people to being gay and not attracted to the opposite sex are confusing the issue (that is bringing sexuality into the discussion). And to everyone talking about wasting time, I really doubt you can make dating super efficient ever. You have to take the time to get to know people before and during and after a date, and it should take some amount of investment to determine your feelings about them.
93
What's it got to do with whether you can identify a trans person on sight, or not?
Not going there with you Star. Have before and the pitch fork mob came after me.
94
If genitals are irrelevant to gender, I challenge Dan Savage to spend half an hour eating Buck Angel's pussy.
95
@94 I don't think you make a good point because plenty of gay men do want to have sex with Buck Angel. Challenging one persons sexual preferences does not make a point about gender.
96
@92: Sometimes you have a dealbreaker that isn't always addressed on the profile. For instance, I have a lot of friends who will not date Republicans (really). These friends might be well-served to say "no Republicans" on their profiles, since their would-be suitors probably won't disclose their politics on their own profiles.

As to wasting time: it's been a while since I online dated, but I never considered it "dating". It was "filtering": making broad cuts to whittle down the huge population of available partners to those I was more likely to be interested in, then contacting those people to see if there is a connection. "Dating" began when we actually met each other. It takes some time to get to the "meet each other" phase, and I wouldn't want to waste that effort on someone whom I wasn't going to like.

Put another way: the sheer number of available partners online means you need to be judicious with your time. You can't afford to take the time to get to know everyone before trying to set up the initial meet. If there's a characteristic like "no Republicans" that helps you determine how best to use your time, then why not use it?
97
@96 I think if you create a proper detailed profile of yourself, it should be rather obvious where you political views lie, which should scare away people with diametrally opposite views.
98
94

Genitals don't determine gender, but they can be a factor in sexual compatibility.

A man with micropenis is most definitely a man and nobody would argue, but there have been letters here in which people so afflicted say that frequently sex partners can't get past it.

On the other hand, everyone wants the guy with two dicks.
99
@96 when people chat online, is it weird to talk about divisive things like politics. I think I would be more interested in a persons actual beliefs then with which party they align with. If I say I am pro-choice on my dating profile would that cause pro-life people to not message me without much trouble? If it is an important thing about me I would put it on my profile to attract like minded people.

I just seem to be less strict than other people about deal-breakers. My impression of online dating though is that it takes time to find a match irregardless of using these accepted methods of exclusion. I'm not judging people to heavily on this matter but definitely have a different mindset about it.
100
What really is the issue here, for you Star?
People- God damn- are Allowed their preferences. And it's not up to you or anybody, to tell them, anyone- that their preference is wrong. Really, none of your business.
101
And what really would be the point of a man with two dicks? I only have one cunt.
102
Lesbians arent attracted to male bodied people, incl trans women, so no need to date them to spare their feelings. And are you even sparing their feelings, when they get their hopes up and you will reject them anyway? I find the advise of Dan ridiculous. Would you advice gay men to date trans men? Lesbians are under heavy attack by trans women cause we arent attracted to them and wont date them. This is lesbophobia in the lgbt community. Dan Savage adds to this. Thanks Dan youre a lesbophobe. Ive never experienced so much hate for being lesbian as from the trans activists. Being an ally doesnt require sex of course. This entire discussion is messed up. Ive yet to see the posts by trans men telling gay men they should date and fuck them or they are transphobic.

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