@61 & @64: Bonjour, sissoucat! Comment tallez vous?

BiDanFan
@ 100- I’m totally up to it, but let’s postpone party plans till Venn gets back. I hope Ricardo would also like to take part in it, either in person or using a protégé.
@101 “confidence is sexy as well” should be “Confidence is sexy as hell.“ Not to be confused with arrogance or leering.

Lava- I suspect some of the negative images associated with "cougar" come from porn.

@101 BiDanFan and @102 Jina: Bless you both for your open-mindedness.

Okay--I've said and posted enough for a while.

Quick update before an evening of paperwork in another room -

Despite periods spent pacing and making myself breathe while I couldn't make fists, I did get a fair amount done today, both important and not. Luckily, I save up a number of tasks for when I'm out of sorts.

I think Dr Sean/Ms Cummins may have come closest - the idea that there are villains out there harming My People by representing their vile practice as the cure for suicide rather than a cause is completely insupportable. My thanks to Ms Fan for giving me a good reason to avoid watching it. Ms Cute's idea is an excellent one, though it's not something I could do for myself. My speaking voice is unfortunately far more of a detriment to any cause I espouse than an asset. I may see if I can find someone who'd let me collaborate on a script, although even that prospect seems highly daunting. Thanks also to anyone else who gave the matter a comment or any well-intentioned thought, which even alone is something.

To top everything off, sometime during the last hour the loose tooth in my partial came out and I swallowed it unawares. Charming.

As for the party, it's a kind offer, but the only parties at which I'd be any good would involve bridge, Gilbert & Sullivan, or murder. Ms Cute will recall that I am prone to such things as discussing Mrs Woolf during sex - not a natural party person. By all means, let Mr Ricardo preside. Or maybe see if Mr Alan and Mr Ophian can be summoned to assist Ms Fan in some highly ecumenical bi extravaganza. I think I may try to spend most of the next few days reading; I'd been meditating earlier in the week on the strange blighted courtship of Elizabeth I and le duc D'Alencon, which is highly appropriate for a conversation about cougars, especially as Catherine de Medici tried to get Lizzie for either of two of his three older brothers (the third and oldest being the first husband of Mary Stewart).

Have a good party.

I don't see any reason for HUBBY to suggest a DADT relationship and maybe have her partake as well. Sexless marriage is no fun and there are ways around it with out hurting the other person. I've said almost the same thing to my husband...but it was more concrete, like 'you should try to get laid'. Our situation was pretty similar to what Dan listed as to why our marriage was failing and why we didn't want to divorce. I have a BF/sex partner on the side. And keep all that separate from each other.

lea-gia @115: I don't know any way to get through marriage without hurting the other person sometimes. So when deciding on a course of action, I think someone doesn't need to evaluate "will this hurt the other person?" Instead, they can evaluate: "is this going to reduce the pain suffered by both of us?"

I agree with you that HUBBY should have a serious conversation with his wife about some kind of open marriage, rather than just secretly going off and having his own sexual adventures. If he really never has sex with her, then he can be more subtle in the words he uses ("Since we don't have sex anymore, I'm going to have to handle my needs myself.") But if they do still have sex once a month or so, then it's irresponsible not to tell her he's going to have other sex partners as well.

(Note that I'm interpreting @115 as if it says: I don't see any reason for HUBBY not to suggest a DADT relationship and maybe have her partake as well.)

@61: " That sex under threat may seem hotter to the threateners says a lot about them."

No, all it says is that it was conspicuously enthusiastic, for a change. The fact that the enthusiasm only showed up under threat of divorce is not generally seen as a positive by the person who threatened to leave, as it implies that the person isn't actually interested in the threatening partner, merely in not losing their situation.

Maybe Dan should add an FAQ page with the most common situations and his take on them. People can go see if their situation has already been adequately covered. Add an autorespond to his email account, too, that says, "Check the FAQ page first, (link), you aren't as unique as you think, and isn't it better to get an adequate answer immediately, than a personalized one late or not at all?"

@EricaP...i totally agree with you :) that's exactly what was weighed out with my decisions. What will hurt the least amount of people and make the most amount of people happy...trust me, I'm compromising in my situation (or maybe I'm not because I would rather have people i love happy). my compromise takes me staying in something I was not 100% happy about i realized i need to be happy. I say 'need' in the sense that i have two kids and unless i want them to be raised around an unhappy parent...i NEED to do something to be happy as well. Fortunately my partner realizes this as well. He too is compromising & i recognize that and appreciate that wholeheartedly.

As someone who has recently starting using a "dating" app, it is my experience that men much younger than I anticipated are interested in me, in some cases for a hookup, in some cases for more traditional dating. If a guy 20 year younger had smiled at me and flirted with me prior to this experience, I don't know that it would've dawned on me that he was interested in dating me. I might have thought he was just a flirty person in general and it wasn't directed at me specifically. I like Dan's advice to LW on this.

As for the cougar term, I do think it's similar to the sugar daddy term. Not to say that cougar also means lifestyle provider, but that both terms make assumptions about dynamics that may or may not exist when these age differences exist. So they are used as shorthand to describe the age gap between OS partners but may sometimes give a false impression of the actual dynamic between those partners.

Re: HUBBY, he says a couple of times that divorce is not an option for him for a number of reasons. His wife said that he wouldn't blame him if he slept with other women, but that's not the same as to agree to an open marriage. I wonder why he didn't take the opportunity to discuss opening up the marriage when the wife said that.
I suspect that the wife knows for a fact that HUBBY doesn't really want to get a divorce. She enthusiastically fucked him when she was afraid he'd divorce her, and then never again. I guess that's because she realized that it was mostly an empty threat.

I don't believe cheating is the best option in this case. She's the one who's being selfish and unfair; and if he cheats and gets caught, he'll be the bad guy and he'll have to ask for forgiveness if he wants to remain married. He needs to tell her that she has to choose between having sex with him at least X times a week/month; letting him find sex elsewhere (with the promise that it would be done discreetly and that he won't spend all of his free time/money on his sex partners; or getting a divorce.

He should give her a few days to think things through and then accept her decision, whatever that is. But he needs to be willing to actually go through with the divorce if that's what she chooses.

(Sorry if someone else has already said this, I haven't read all the comments.)

@griz: Okay. Fair enough.

Hey griz! Hope we're good, hate to think I might have offended you.

@SMART: I don't think it's wise to hit on a customer because she might consider it unprofessional behavior and decide to take her business elsewhere. But if you don't mind the risk of losing her as a client, then simply ask her out for coffee. If she declines, then that's it. Don't insist. If she agrees, don't treat it as a date unless she gives you clear signals that she considers it a date as well, because there's a chance that she thinks you're interested in being friends with her but nothing more. After the coffee date, ask her out again, but this time for dinner and drinks. If she agrees, I think it'd be safe to assume that she at least suspects you're interested in more than a friendship, so you can openly hit on her on this date without creeping her out.

@114 vennminon: I'm really sorry that you're having a tough time. Not trying to pry---was this a TV program among other stress factors that has become so upsetting? So much on TV is truly garbage. I agree with Sean, Alison, nocutename and BiDanFan for you to avoid watching it if you can. You and so many others are in my thoughts and prayers. I hope all works out for the better for you. Take care, Venn---I know you're among those sorely missed at the party. I know I would.

@123 seandr: You didn't offend me at all. Actually, you and others had offered a different context for the term cougar (I like the sleek cat description in particular). Thank you, seandr, BiDanFan, et. al. for supplying a more complimentary alternative. Forgive me---I can't seem to shake off the "nutty old hag with runny mascara and saggy boobs chasing little boys" image. Maybe it's because I can't see myself dating men half my age, even if I'm infinitely healthier and sleeker than I was at age 30.

Griz is busily slaying a particularly nasty skeleton of 25 years in her closet, so I've been taking things one day at a time. Keeping musically active helps keep me healthy, happy, and sane.
Where's Michael Binkley when you need him?!? Channeling Berkely Breathed......

@126, Part II: ...."nutty old hag with runny mascara and saggy boobs chasing little boys"....I guess I'm feeling self conscious over having saggy boobs even though I'm not chasing anybody.

Fan, If I could rewire my brain to unassociate words from meaning.. I would.
That you enjoy younger, same age, men as yourself.. They are adults..You are not getting with boys, I can't see why you need a title at all. You have relationships with adult men.
Id be fine re getting with a younger man. A close to 20 yr age gap, as with this LW, might take some adjusting to.
And I don't agree Alison, re reclaiming a word that to me, from the first, felt offensive and demeaning to women and their erotic strength. The TV show didn't help.. Cougar Town.. Or some such thing.
Men have mated with younger women forever.. 10-15 yrs younger, and nobody blinks. Why should a woman, doing the same thing, have to be labeled in any way at all.

I'm glad Dan is pulling the plug on the sorts of ques HUBBY has posed.
A marriage, with children is way too complex a scenario to offer much meaningful advice, except.. You have children, whatever way you go into the future.. Keep their needs until they are adults, as your first priority.
I don't buy the story that so many women are just closing up shop , for no reason. Two people and their behaviours, have got the marriage to this point.

@108 auntie grizelda

So nice to hear from you ! Life has its ups and downs. Currently it's a pretty major down on the familial front, and a little up on the professional front. Good to see that you're facing this old skeleton whatever it is ; old skeletons in closets must be properly disposed of, and better sooner than later. I wish you fortitude in your endeavours.

@avast2006

I agree with you regarding the meaning of sex under threat : it's not hot, it's loathsome. But some commenters and possibly the LW have described it as hot, and one even suggested the threat of "sex every tuesday or divorce".

How a human could genuinely enjoy psychologically forced sex with another human baffles me, and it says the forcing one is a POS, and the forced one someone who has not enough self esteem to not be a doormat/victim of psychological abuse.

In my opinion, the right answer to sexless marriage is to be honest about it and agree to outsource sex for both partners. If the marriage withstands that, good. If it doesn't, it's better to break up a bad situation than stay in it... of course when there are children involved, it's more delicate. Therefore my own one-year-long prostitution to my then-husband.

Hunter @109: So much so that "Mrs Robinson" was the term for such a woman before "cougar" was coined. More recently we have Samantha from Sex And The City. Of course her sexploits were exaggerated for their comedic value, but she was presented as a positive character. Though having read some of these posts, I'm sure some people see her in the opposite light.

I do agree it can be offensive to call someone a "cougar" simply because she is a certain age or happens to be dating someone a few years younger. Again it is all about context. Not all gay men are "bears" and not all women over 40 are "cougars."

Hockey @124: I disagree, only because I recently saw someone on a board talking about how creepy they would find it if someone asked them to go for coffee/some sort of outing whilst not specifying they were interested in a date-like way. Coupled with the comments of some older women here that they would never expect a younger man's interest and therefore be completely oblivious, I think SMART needs to be explicit. Otherwise she may see this as a business meeting and be completely shocked when he goes in for a kiss.

Griz, good luck in your battle against the closet-skeletons.

#58 - Hey, I thought I had a part in that movie!
Sean gave me the wrong address to get to the set, deliberately I’m thinking.

For those who haven’t seen it -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeEqyfrU…

‘Cougar,’ to me, yes, implies an interest in younger men, but younger men have always had a healthy interest in older women (ones they find attractive.) The subject of much cinema, literature, porn, and fantasy..with (in my experience, not unlike slut-shaming) the majority of disapproval coming more from other women.
Same with referring to a younger woman with an older man as a ‘trophy;’ as though the guy was only with that woman to show off, and left alone would have no interest in a younger partner. This has always seemed to be of a piece with ‘why do men want to sleep with lots of different women? What part of them is broken, what are they trying to prove? And why on earth would you want to consume pizza and beer together, are you trying to give some giant middle finger to traditional dietary theory?"

Hey CatB; how you doing? It's not a movie.. It's a fantasy. A communal one.. Where who ever wants to add a flavour in, an action.. Can.
The one last week, Sean was a little perplexed by.. Not really taken by. So, I was just getting the scene set until the word came that he was on Tinder. Obviously that boy has tons of his own fantasy material to go on with, so I shelved the idea.
You'd know yourself, being in the healing profession, middle aged men and too much excitment can put strain on the heart, so I just thought it might be best not to contribute to any situation where he might get over excited.

As a woman in my 40's, I hear the word 'cougar' directed at me, and it's typically with a tone that annoys me. Whether intended by the user or not, it carries the connotation that it's somehow note-worthy that a woman above a certain age (often dipping back into her 30's) is still sexual, and both interested in and capable of landing men younger than herself.

There is no comparable term for men. You don't hear an ongoing chorus of amazement at or labeling of men who are 30- or 40-something as being a certain type because they still enjoy sex, and are out there confidently looking for it (omg, you go, boy!). When I raise an objection to the term being used about me, I often get some bristled version of "Hey, calm down, it's a compliment!", like I should be grateful still to be considered someone with sexual autonomy at my advanced age.

I know not every woman has the same reaction to the word, and if it blows your skirt up to be called a cougar, that's terrific. But for me, it's an annoying stereotype often launched by men who usually fancy themselves way more versed in women's sexuality than they actually are.

@135 Zoo - Personally, I think it would bother me to be described as such because I really am attracted to men in a wide age range, like 20 years younger through 10 years older, so to me it would just seem like someone was referring to someone else, not me, but maybe that says more about how each of us interprets the word Cougar. I interpret it as older women, maybe over 40, on the prowl for much younger men, say 10+ years younger than themselves. And while I am 40+ and interested in men 10+ years younger and fairly confident at this point in approaching them, it's just one data point that doesn't really reflect the full picture.

An all-inclusive party thread line
Suggested guidelines: everyone can contribute. Please try to keep it to one reasonable paragraph. Each contributor picks up from where the last person had left off.
ALL RELATED POSTS WILL BE HEADLINED “Party Line” so one can easily choose to skip or participate.

“Party Line”
(it’s a bit long, just to give everyone a solid start)
Our party begins with two guys in their mid-late 30’s who were sent by their well-known US west coast firm to represent them in some big trade show in New York City. Since the display gear didn’t show up they can just hang around the entire weekend.
After few drinks on Thursday evening they start talking and realize both marriages have been sexless for some time. One says he wrote to Savage Lava and got great feedback from all the wonderful people writing in here.

They also confess they are both attracted to older women and would like to act on it. The other thanks us again.
They follow some old Jewish ladies, assuming correctly they are off to their weekly mahjong night, but realize quickly they’re no match to the young Chinese male gold diggers.

Much to Venn’s horror, on Friday night they decide to check out a bridge tournament held in a private club across the street from their hotel.
A short haired woman wearing black informing them at the door with a slight British accent that they are the only men allowed in tonight…

So what’s next?
Strip bridge?
The ladies tell them, “you two boys kiss each other to make us horny?”
Anything else?

You decide

BiDanFan @131: Of course she could be shocked when he goes in for a kiss, which is why I suggested that he didn't treat the first meeting as a date, which means that he shouldn't go in for a kiss. That non-date would help him to get a better feel about how the client reacts toward his attentions in a non-business environment, and then he can decide if it's safe to ask her out on a real date without creeping her out.
I know that honesty is the best policy, but maybe it'd be easier for her to consider him as a potential partner if she gets to know him a little bit first in a non-business situation.

Disclaimer: I've been off the dating scene since 1999, so obviously my advice should be taken with a mountain of salt.

Nice one CMD. Guidelines too, impressive. You girls in your high heels keeping the Champers flowing.

Where I live a cougar is a woman over 35 who's sexually attracted to younger men. So you can be considered a cougar without having ever fucked a younger man. Hell, without having even tried to fuck a younger man. Sexual attraction is enough to get that label. Which is why it doesn't have negative connotations here. Most women have fantasized about a younger man at some point, so a label that applies to the overwhelming majority of women over 35 can't be considered bad. It's considered normal.

Now, if a woman actually has sex with a younger man, she's simply labeled a "puta" (slut). As are labeled all the women of any age who dare to freely and openly enjoy NSA sex. But that's another story.

LW.. The younger man dude, who fancies the older woman..
The younger women here , as meaningful as their suggestions are.. They know not what they are talking about. They are still at the age of fertility.
The post fertility age, for a woman, is a very different territory.
You as a forty odd yr old man , are attracted to this 60 odd yr old woman... So if you can pick up her sex, then her sex is still working. Unless it's not sex you want..
She, doesn't want some man fumbling over her. Once a woman successfully crosses over into fun land.. Which I feel are the true words some women could use instead of post menopause..

Men-o-Pause. See, the male created language tries to control our every move.
Sorry LW, slight diversion... So when a woman successfully crosses over into fun land and she is expressing her power.. As your friend does thru her work, then she is in a power you need to be real careful of.
No bullshit manoeuvres. And please, don't use the word date. Just tell her straight you find her attractive and would she like to go to dinner with you.
That's it.

I still remember the queasy, disbelieving thought as a teenager that middle-aged people might still be having sex. It defied all known laws of the universe. I tried (unsuccessfully) to imagine the multi-chinned, shuffling gym teacher getting it on (blech!), or any number of tightly coiffed, perfumed, asexual PTA moms doing the dirty. It was inconceivable. How did you get through the layers of make-up? Why would you even want to try? I decided it must be a rare occurence, like an obligatory annual family dinner, something everyone did once in a while out of a sense of duty, but no one actually enjoyed. You might even skip a year. I felt bad for the gorgeous young women who married rich older men (like, late thirties, forties), having to give up good sex for all that money. Or worse still, having to pretend to enjoy sex once in awhile with those ridonkulous, balding beings to justify their paycheck.

And then one day the school was abuzz with the news that our derpy high school principal had left his marriage for one of the PTA moms. I simply couldn't compute. Only beautiful people had sex.

This was before cougars were invented.

LateBloomer @143, Oh yeah! Old-people sex. Gross. And now I think that teens are cute and adorable and all, and okay they have a version of sexuality, but there's nothing to be sexually attracted to, there.

Oh LateBloomer, you have brought back sweet smelling memories of some of those perfumed PTA moms.
While never as lucky as that derpy principal of yours, at least now I can be one from time to time.
"Perfumed PTA mom wannabbe"

And now Late, you are getting closer to being one of them.
That world is not everywhere, anymore. The World of Lies.
That's why HUBBY's letter is so distressing. More children growing up in lies. Tell the truth, your truth at all times and tend the children.

@143: LateBloomer, a few years ago, I was teaching a class of college freshmen and for some reason, the subject of sex between the middle-aged came up (for some reason, sex frequently comes up as a topic in all my classes--I can't imagine why!). An18-year-old was horrified at the thought of "old people" still having sex--actually "sickened" by it. I asked if she didn't want to think that her grandparents were still having a happy, fulfilling marriage, with all that entails (without having to actually visualize their marital happiness, because no one wants to imagine that stuff with your grandparents). She maintained that she was repulsed at the thought of all that "old skin rubbing up against other old skin--like sandpaper" and declared that people should stop having sex at the age of 40. 40! I told her I'd check back in with her when she was 39 and see if she still felt the same way. Four years later, as a wise(r) old(er) college senior, I was still teasing her about that. By then, she'd moved the expiration date on sex to 55 . . .

CMD; the list of girls you could play is endless.

@144: Alison: Yup!

Hope you are safe Hockey Mom, away from the Hurricane.

Sorry Late. That came out wrong @146.
I meant that now you'd be approaching the same age as that deputy head.

@128: "Men have mated with younger women forever.. 10-15 yrs younger, and nobody blinks."

That is simply not true. A man who dates substantially downward in age is routinely subjected to all manner of character assassination, including but not limited to "predatory," "emotionally stunted," "pathetically trying to recapture a lost youth," "offensive," "desperate to appear hip," "perverted," and even "child molester." Surely you have been reading here long enough to remember the arguments where 50 year olds dating 18 year olds are likened to literal child molesters, as if an 18 year old isn't even an adult. Also those commenters who get offended at being hit on by someone older, as if it says something vile about him that he would dare to imagine she might even be interested in an old geezer like him. It all happens right here in the comments section on a supposedly sex-positive, liberal column like Dan Savage.

I think the "minimum = half your age plus seven years" formula works remarkably well.

A 14-year old has to date another 14-year old; a 20-year old is pushing it to date a 17-year old, a 30-year old daren't date below 22, 40 can date as low as 27, 50 can date 32, and so on.The acceptable range expands as the participants age and (hopefully) mature. If a particular person isn't mature enough to handle a 50 year old by the time they turn 32, they never will be, and that says unkind things about the younger person, not the old "predator."

Dan, I think you are awesome, but I respectfully disagree with your advice to HUBBY (and, yes, I've read your book and I respectfully disagree with that chapter). As the person who is the third party in one of these arrangements, I'm the one who has taken the brunt of a HUBBY and his wife's disfunction and failure to acknowledge their problems. Yes, I knew the arrangement and agreed to it two years ago because I had my own sexless marriage (which fortunately ended), but I honestly didn't realize how damaging it would be to all of us. Secrets beget more secrets. Ultimately, they are all lies forced by an ill-conceived agreement that should've been resolved, likely by a divorce or other more mature arrangement, a decade ago when the problem first arose. Feelings cannot be contained. They are there. The third person is relegated to being less important and it's dehumanizing and disrespectful. I dealt with my spouse and that means everyone else has the ability to do the same. Secrets and DADT are not ok. It's a breeding ground for hurt. Buck up, HUBBY and face the music. You chose poorly, now you need to start negotiating an open agreement or get out of the marriage. It's only fair to your spouse (who isn't playing fair at all, I agree, but you have to be the grown up here), your children (who deserve a better partnership model so they can learn to build healthy relationships themselves, and who also see through your secrets and lies), and your sex partner(s). No, you don't like your options, but bringing other people into your mess is hurtful and selfish. Deal with it head on like a grown up. Staying married in the wrong arrangement holds no honor no matter what society or Dan says.

If my maths serves me well Avast. 18 yr old is 32 yrs younger than a 50 yr old.
An 18 yr old is barely an adult. As I've read it, the brain hasn't properly matured untill someone is 25 yrs old.

LavaGirl @151: "I meant that you'd now be approaching the same age as that deputy head."

Ya, but I'm still beautiful, so it's okay.

CMD; @138. Just spied your Party Line startup. I'll read it thru and if my creative juices are activated.. I'll be back.
I've never doubted you were beautiful, Late.

Savage Lava, Eh?
Party Line; As the two young men walk thru the door, they sense this is not an ordinary Bridge tournament.
The women are sitting at tables playing, yet they each are dressed in very provacative clothing, all black, all silk.
The men stand just inside the door to this room, where the only lights are lamps on each table, agog at what they see.
A room full of sexily clad women, none appearing younger than forty five, playing Bridge with each other.

Party Line
Once their eyes adjusted to the dimmed light conditions and scanning the room, A and E hear the woman who met them at the door telling them, “Lets go to the kitchen boys.”
They struggle to move between the crowded tables. E suspects what he felt was not an accidental pet on his butt, while A noticing the cards are all carrying images of naked men.
Once in the kitchen they notice the trays of food and wine glasses.
E is trying to make a small talk with their guide, telling her he just heard Joe Biden decided not to run for president. She becomes agitated, telling him she was always a Biden fan, and assures him he will pay later for delivering the bad news.
She goes to the adjacent room for a minute and comes back with a bag.
“Ok boys, here are your uniforms. Let me see you change right now!”
Much to their horror they realize their “uniforms” are…

Hockey @141: Wow! I think this is the least favourable interpretation of cougar I have ever read. This reads similar to the standard thoughts on paedophiles: it's ok for her to have desires, but not to act on them? Every woman fancies younger men, but she'd better repress those desires, or she'll be slut-shamed for them? Wow. I'm glad I don't live where you live. I'm glad that where I live, a 38-year-old woman can date a 33-year-old man and no one is bothered.

Lava @142: Add the word "date" to words you don't like... there is an ever growing list!

Avast @152: 50 and 18 is hardly the 10- to 15-year age difference. What we are saying is that a 48-year-old man dating a 33-year-old woman doesn't raise a single eyebrow hair. A 48-year-old woman dating a 33-year-old man... well, read @141 for what some people would think of that.

@153: I don't think that not wanting to date a 50-year-old when you are 32 signals a "lack of maturity." I bet that person will be good and ready to date 50-year-olds when they are 45.

CMD @160: I see what you did there :) More of a Bernie fan, myself!

Oh Fan. i don't hate words.. And of course other women my age may have no problem being asked on a date, or for a date.. Just; how to explain.

I think I'm going to sit out this party. I'm too depressed about the prevailing perceptions about women my age and older. In supposedly sex-positive, post-feminist 2015, it seems that women's sole value in the sexual arena is in producing children. Because once you are too old to produce children, continuing to have sexual desires is seen as shameful and disgusting. Daring to approach a man I find attractive and who is as old as I look and feel is "borderline creepy" (Venn) or just as bad as being a paedophile (Hockey Mom). What is the problem here? Society has embraced same-sex marriage, the idea of "monogamish" relationships and transgender people, but we still condemn post-fertile women for daring to have sexual desires. (While at the same time condemning those women in marriages whose sex drives cool off.)

We certainly haven't come a long way, baby.

BiDanFan, I think the reactions to "cougar" are varied and nuanced, and depend a lot on what an individual brings to the idea.
To me, a "cougar" is a woman in her 40s or 50s who is sexually confident, even, perhaps, sexually avaricious. She is self-assured, attractive, sexy, a professional, and most importantly, more than merely solvent. She isn't in a committed relationship, nor is she particularly interested in having one, though if one comes her way, she'd be okay with that. She prefers her sex partners to be men substantially younger than herself (20s to early 30s--but the "early 30s" only if she's late40s or older), and--most significantly for me, she uses the considerable wealth imbalance between her and her boy-toy to buy them dinners, drinks, weekends away, and perhaps gifts for him. Young men who are looking for a cougar, as opposed to a merely sexually confident, assertive, older woman, are expecting to be wined and dined and gifted in addition to enjoying great sex. They are also aware that rather than playing the neophyte-who-receives-sexual-tutoring role that is sometimes assumed by a younger man having sex with an older woman, they are expected to bring expertise and skill--they are "earning" their keep. They tend to be very attractive, cocky, and ready to exploit their youth and looks to their benefit, in the same way that the young women who are actively looking for sugar daddies see themselves as bringing something valuable in the form of their youth and beauty and sexual availability to be bargained for financial security or material gift, or "compensation."

I reiterate that that is just my definition of "cougar" and the attendant man who who seeks her out. I differentiate that from the dynamic of an older, sexually secure, attractive woman who has a healthy sexual appetite and her younger parter, who appreciates--among other things--the uninhibited and adventuresome sex that many women like to have once they're in their mid-30s or older.

But I acknowledge that my distinctions may be more nuanced than most people bother with, and I have no value judgment for either party in the cougar/(what is the word for the boy toy the cougar plays with? A "boytoy?" "prey?")duo--as I also do not for the sugar daddy/sugar baby dynamic. As long is everyone is upfront and everyone comes through what his/her part of the understood bargain, I got no issues.

And finally, i admit that I see sexism in the idea that a middle-aged woman is the object of mild ridicule by being compared with a sexy predator. Not because she wants sex and is proactive about getting it, but that she wants sex from a younger man (and is expected to assume the traditional male role of paying for the dates in order to get it). I don't think our culture has any issue with a middle-aged woman who enjoys having sex as long as she's (a) not paying for it in any way and (b) getting it from someone either her own age or just slightly older.
By the same token, though our culture understands the desire on a middle-aged man's part to want his sexual partner to be barely out of her teens, we do still tend to frown on men who use their financial assets to gain such a girlfriend. The difference is that we tend to feel sorry for the girl (enduring that creep, ugh!) while we envy that boy-toy (having hot sex and getting a nice watch, too). There are more than double-standards at work here: there is every kind of reductive thinking.

Fuck them: Say it loud and say it proud: "I'm here, I'm a cougar, deal with it!"

Mistress B @ 161
I was tempted to write something like, “She tells them she doesn’t give a shit, she’s not a Biden fan, but a Corbin one.”

Mistress B @ 163
Don’t let it get to you. Many people may get a negative Impression of others because they don’t really know a real person in this particular situation. Their cues come from popular culture, porn and the like, and those are often not flattering to anyone.
Venn is struggling with an obscure TV show. I still view “Dressed to Kill,” a movie made some 35 years ago, to contain the ultimate clichés when it comes to older women’s sexuality that needs to be punished, the classic “good hearted, easily saved prostitute,” and of course a dangerously confused murderous transgender.
You, and in a way me too, have the advantage of moving away from where we grew up. None of our immediate family is living nearby, we’re not worried about annoying siblings, and we don’t give a hoot of what the neighbors may think of us. This is not the environment many others can afford. That said, they can still grow up.
Don’t let it ruin YOUR party and always look at the bright side: Chelsea lost again and Morinho was ejected!!!
.

Fan, " you don't understand, a girl like me can't love just one man"..
You been a woman how long, now? And all this is just coming to you?
The contained and constrained roles for women. Are you drugging these boys? Are you imprisoning these boys?
No you are not. They are grown people. They can say yes. They can say no.

Fan, you can't let others' define you, or you are lost.

After thinking I would never do it for fear of people judging me, I did go on a date with a much younger man last night and it felt totally normal, even holding hands with him in my local downtown area. Another learning experience for me.

futurecatlady: Congrats! I hope you had fun!

@169 nocutename - Totally had fun. Thank you! The previous thread we were chatting on, and maybe another recent thread, kind of opened my mind about all this. At least cracked the door open enough for me to step out and experiment.

Future Lady- glad to hear you're branching out and enjoying it.
Lava @ 167 defined it as "you can't let others' define you, or you are lost"
Do you think it may be time for you to reconsider your screen name?

@171 Interesting idea! Can we change screen names? I'll consider it and check it out. Ricardo will be disappointed, however.

congratulations, futurecatlady!

Regarding HUBBY - Thank you so much Dan, for telling a straight man that he needs to have the open/poly conversation, or divorce.. that continuing to cheat makes him an asshole. (And if wife refuses to believe that a sexless commitment can't work for him anymore, he could tell her that it's evidently true because he's already fucking others, too.) So happy to see the same rules for straight men that you give straight women, you rock.

WIML - Sex is one of many happy distractions a body can grab when life is unhappy. I mostly agree with Dan, being squicked by that night's sex escapades sounds like a symptom of an unhappy living situation, rather than noticing that the sexcapades are causing definite problems for you or others. Dan ran a bit of a safety check but there are more ways to hurt yourself and others with sex than listed... but as long as you aren't causing harm to yourself or others, there's no sensible reason to feel guilt. It's ok to take a break from life improvements to focus on sex/relationships occasionally. But your personal life needs to be bigger than your relationships, with hopes and dreams and drive to become excellent in whatever ways appeal. It's ok to take a break from pursuing monogamous relationships for awhile too if you feel like it, to work on your personal priorities. Or even throw away the monogamous standard and go poly. Whatever works.

SMART - I'm not sure you should ask her out, if you think it's creepy of yourself to be attracted to someone her age. Because I'm not sure why her age is an issue for you.

Re: HUBBY - Considering how common these scenarios are, it would be nice to include more information about the situation. It would both make the story more interesting and make the advice more helpful. Yes there are reasons and understanding those reasons and overcoming the issue is the goal. Instead from this limited information we can only blame both parties for not considering the others needs. Also, I think most of these type problems are more than mismatched libido as sex in a relationship is about a lot more than having orgasms - it's about closeness and intimacy. The lack of sex between a couple isn't usually hurtful because your not having enough orgsams, it's hurtful that the one you desire doesn't seem to desire you.

Philo@174. The age is an issue for SMART, because the culture makes it an issue. Why the word creep comes into it is to be sure a problem. Then I can only think that men can feel a little afraid sometimes about which way to turn,
As no one wants to feel like their desires are inappropriate.

@158: Savage Lava wins the thread!!! WAHOOO!
@163 BiDanFan: I can certainly empathize with you, and share your frustrations. I have many male musician friends and colleagues half my age. Heaven forbid I treat a man 25 years younger to dinner at a nice, local restaurant (not the bar, which is usually too noisy for my liking) as a gesture of gratitude for his ensemble's performance of music I composed.
Fuck you, prudish society! I am neither getting drunk and obnoxious in a nudie bar, nor am I getting a room with anyone afterward. Jesus fucking WEPT----and all because I have lost and kept off 45 pounds since January 2013, lightened my hair color to medium auburn, and wear sleeker clothing now (i.e.: yoga pants and chic animal print sweaters)?
In the film, The Graduate, the older woman, Mrs. Robinson (portrayed as a neurotic, chain smoking alcoholic), cougar, and puta (slut) honestly do not fit my description as a pre-menopausal woman. I consider this an insult to my age group, especially when single men also in their 50s shy away from me as if I'm some undesirable fossil. Why are so many heterosexual guys out there, regardless of their age, exclusively seeking 20-year-olds? And DON'T get me started on online dating sites. Interests and backgrounds can be grossly exaggerated, and photos can always be doctored up.

@130 sissoucat: It's wonderful to hear from you, too. Yeah---I don't know. My life is definitely in a transition right now, and I'm having to go day by day. I don't know about the VA yet, but there are very helpful people offering support: a veteran's employment counselor, Vietnam veteran's representative handling my VA disability compensation case, and a psychologist at the VA outpatient clinic that I have been seeing for PTSD counseling and grief management.
@135 The Zoo; Agreed.
@165 CMDwannabe: I guess I'm fortunate not to live in the town I grew up, either. I, too, am comfortably distanced from my siblings, but the social atmosphere for me here where I live is stodgy. The common age groups are teens and 20s, and those 60s+ are expected to be wealthy retirees with visiting children and grandchildren. My devout love of music, theater, cats, and Volkswagens is what currently keeps me occupied, and the healthiest I have been in decades.
@168 futurecatlady: Congratulations! This is such refreshing news. I hope you and your date had a great time together.
@174 Philophile: Agreed on Dan's spot on advice to HUBBY.

At least there is one thing I can do and am already doing----hit the delete key (or the "X") whenever I see those annoying and falsely cheerful dating site ads on my computer screen.
I wish society could just accept me for me, and not keep trying to make me into someone I'm not. I have already wasted too much of my life trying to live as others wanted already.

And what the FUCK is up with the shameful devaluation of the arts and music in society lately?

Nobody here has pissed me off---Griz just has her back up right now, and it feels like I'm walking on air one minute and between a rock and a hard place the next. The constant ups and downs are overwhelming. I hope I don't end up a homeless veteran; moving in with any of my siblings is not a healthy option.

Hockey Mom: I hope you and your family are okay and safe from the hurricane.

Forgive me, all, re: @181: something a friend of mine had said to me on the phone earlier tonight was a bit of a downer. While she's a good friend and I respect her opinion, she used the word "reality" concerning my professional pursuits, and it struck a nerve rather harshly.
I'm with you, BiDanFan: maybe it's time for me to go to bed and try again next week.

Goodnight Dan and everybody. Big hugs, music, and VW beeps,

Griz

Grizelda@181. Your friend tells you to what, re Reality? Face it. Fuck it. Drown it. Lick it. Kiss it. Smother it.

You talking of homelessness is a bit worrying, Grizelda.

It is a bit disturbing, Grizelda, that you are talking of homelessness.

How can a comment go missing and then turn up Half an hour later. Weird.

Thank you LavaGirl and auntie grizelda, fortunately I live far away from where the hurricane hit so all we got was a little bit of rain.

BiDanFan: I need to clarify that when I meant younger men I meant something like a 10+ year gap. But still, I agree that it's terrible that in 2015 women our age still have to deal with all this shaming and double standards. Where I live the macho culture is alive and well, so anything that threatens the status quo is frowned upon. There is hope for the future generations, though. My sister is 24 and from what she tells me things are not necessarily equal but at least they're not as bad for women her age and younger. There's a lot less shaming, at least. But I come from a generation in which women were supposed to remain virgins until marriage; or at the very least until they were engaged. Of course not everybody waited, but the ones who didn't were careful to keep it a secret, because if people found out, your reputation was ruined and you became pretty much unmarriable.
(I'm obviously generalizing, there are good men my age and older who are not threatened by sexually empowered women, but sadly they're in the minority.)

Lava @167: "Fan, you can't let others' define you, or you are lost." -- Don't you see that that's what you are doing??

Hockey @185: "I need to clarify that when I meant younger men I meant something like a 10+ year gap." That doesn't make me feel any better, given that my partners are 10 and 13 years younger than me. I hope the tide turns quickly where you are.

FutureCatLady @168: Congratulations! See what can happen when we shake off these pointless, stupid rules. I now wonder how many women (and men) are missing out on great relationships -- casual, long-term, whatever -- because they are afraid of being judged. How damaging sexism can be. But I am cheered by some of the comments here, as well as Daniel Craig's recent comments on the age double standard in Hollywood:
http://mic.com/articles/127215/daniel-cr…

Thanks Bi, Auntie Griz, Alison, CMD, nocute for the awesome encouragement!

@186 Bi - Yep. This particular man is 18 years younger and I really didn't even notice, aside from his need to Google some of my pop culture references. Haha.

@186 Bi - WOW. Love those Daniel Craig quotes!

Re the Craig article -
How anyone could see Monica Belluci other than bone-jarringly attractive is a mystery to me, but of course most men do, the interviewer was looking to do some fire starting.
As far as sexism/gender roles, it’s instructive to note the standards that Craig himself is held to for the Bond role. His first bond appearance, featured in a gif in the interview, he was radically more muscular and defined than previous Bonds; Connery, who in his day was a barrel-chested badass who had panties flying at the screen, looks laughably smooth and un-athletic by comparison (check out the bath scene in You Only Live Twice.) And three movies into Craig’s role, the conceit was that he was physically washed up and couldn’t cut the rigors of the job anymore.
See also the physical differences in Hugh Jackman between the first X-Men movie and his role in Wolverine, where he was cut like the loser in a Mexican knife fight. Male actors, at least in action pics, are also held to an increasingly high standard.

As far as older women go, my first experience had me at 21, her at 40, and it was awesome. We didn’t have a dating relationship, as she may or may not have been...in another relationship at that time, but as previously noted, i and guys my age have never had a problem appreciating the beauty of someone considerably older than us.

How am I defining you, as in you, Fan?
I just don't like the word Cougar. You are not a word, are you?
No where have I made any value judgements about women being with younger men unless those men are not men but boys. I have the same yuk response if men go after girls.
It is great that these barriers re age differences have broken down for women.
I just don't see how me rejecting that label
Re this dynamic is in any way defining you. I'm trying to help you see you don't need a label. That over time that label
could just strangle your authentic self.
why are you so distressed by others opinions of a word?
I don't have any negative feelings about the behaviour. And I've been pretty clear on that.
If this discussion has triggered off some insecurity in you, then look to that.

Lava - The age is an issue for SMART, because the culture makes it an issue.
Attractions can be problematic for good reasons, not just because they are considered unusual. So I disagree that you can draw this conclusion.

Attractions to hurting yourself or other people are the real problematic ones, I think. Or being attracted to weakness, because of low self esteem or predatory impulses. A generation younger, there are less health problems and aging issues and that's a strength, but also inexperience, which is a major weakness; they are more vulnerable to being used, likely to defer to the older partner's experience until they become unhappy. A generation older, and there are more aging problems, but age does often come with wisdom and life stability, which is a strength. Then there is being primarily attracted to teens, which seems pedophilic after your early 20s, when being asked to buy alcohol and give opinions on high school drama should turn off a reasonable adult.

He might be worried that her interest in him stems from his inexperience... although he's not certain about her interest in him... He might be worried that he's become attracted to weakness if the women who spark his interest now are all "less than traditionally attractive" in some way. That can happen if he has stopped appreciating his own value; he doesn't seem predatory to me. Or he might fear being made fun of by others because of his desires. But Dan says that men usually get over this common fear of other men judging their attractions in their 20s... although I think he was referring to being attracted to large framed women... I can see why age standards may take longer to get to "I like what I like, and I'm not hurting anyone, so fuck off about what you like, it's not for me". Still, 40. Maybe I'm ageist, I think that 40 years should result in a little more wisdom than shown here.

Auntie Griz - Thanks. I hope you keep working on getting the paycheck you want. I understand a little about how hard it is to make a career in the arts. Subject to aesthetic standards, it's hard to make a decent living outside of teaching, unless you have some business talent. You've been remarkably successful so far. Perhaps your friend simply meant that as you find the next way of helping people with your music, there's no shame in making a paycheck from more common work, as long as you're still pursuing (your own business/website, other orchestras, teaching and tutoring positions, contracting, etc).

Re attracted to weakness, attracted to the pain of others:

Sissou [61] - "As for having more sex under threat of divorce, I've been there, and I refer to that shiny period as "the time I prostituted myself to save my kids from being children of divorce". That was so not worth it. That sex under threat may seem hotter to the threateners says a lot about them."

TH [69]- "Hysterical Bonding sounds hot. Not sure the other 22 hours of the day filled with hell and tears and hiding of the household scissors would be worth it."

Party line
Did anyone watch the Manchester derby? Joe Hart, City's goalie, was wearing yellow gloves!!!

Ah wisdom Philo. I still wait for it.
I do agree with your words, to an extent, If we are looking at a big age gap, those issues could come into it.
This guy doesn't say he's planning to marry this woman, just he feels attracted to her.
Society does involve itself too. As we have been discussing here.

I don't know if you can draw all those conclusions, Philo. I have never been with a younger man over a period of time, so I don't know how the dynamic plays out. It must depend a lot on individual differences, people's life experience doesn't just come from time alive. The age difference for this LW is nearly twenty years, and forty to sixty seems a bigger gap than does twenty to forty, as I see it.
And as we have read here so often, doesn't seem to matter what the age gap is, in LTRs, resentments seem to grow over time, for a lot of people.

@HUBBY

Do you think, maybe, just maybe, that your problem could be related to the fact that you seek the advice of a man who sleeps with men?

Go ahead and screw around. You work hard enough; just be discreet. And stop asking gay dudes for hetero advice. It's just sad.

@ 196
Lets hope this is either a provocation or a cheap way to increase ratings.

@Venn I'm a bit late but I'd like to take the idea for this horrible show and rework it. I'd lean towards an 'But I'm a Cheerleader' like comedy where the guy goes to 'conversion camp' and meets another cute guy there.

While there he realizes the people who run are fucked up and full of shit, and that everyone there is dealing with their own problems. Helping him to gain the strength to realize that a bad patch shouldn't be a reason to take your own life, or try to change your sexuality. He reaches out to the cute guy and the other camp members and they stage a coup ala 'Addams Family Values', and leave the camp in flames behind them, preferably done as a show stopping musical number.

[And maybe a spotlight episode focusing on the ex showing he acted badly but he regrets it and really just freaked out at the idea of marriage.]

FutureCat @187: Yes, as a dater-of-younger-men (as Lava does not like the word "cougar"), I have had amusing moments when talking about some of my favourite bands or movies of my youth, and discovering my date was not even born at the time! But other than that, so long as you are both adults (generally, late 20s and older is clued-in enough to date any other adult), an age difference shouldn't make much difference.

CatBrother @189 (are you related? haha): Beauty standards for men have risen for some roles. This pales into insignificance when you consider that women are held to ridiculous standards for all roles. It's not just the female action star who needs to have a great body; it's the bit-part colleague, waitress, neighbour... EVERYONE. Oh, except for the female villains, they're allowed to be ugly.

Patriarch @196: Presumably, commenting on advice columns written by gay men is even MORE sad. Right?

@199 Bi, can't agree. Waitresses and neighbors in film are allowed to look normal (neighbors especially,) the slightly chunky wisecracking best friend part has been around so long it's become a trope. Femaie villiians, in my experience, are held to high beauty standards.

Film secretaries and waitresses might be pretty, but they're not having to show cobblestone abs and softball delts, Casting a woman because she has nice cheekbones is not the same as Channing Tatum or Hugh Jackman doing months of killer workouts and diet (and a ton of gray- and black-market drugs for size and definition.)
Those guys are also getting killer pay, so I'm not sorry for them, but their appearance on screen, where they often spend weeks training/dieting down to single-digit bodyfat for a single shirtless scene, where it's implied that that's how they're walking around all the time, is the very definition of 'unrealistic.' Some actresses in key roles are held to that standard, but definitely not 'everyone.'
I was just rewatching the elevator scene from 'The Losers.' Take a look at Chris Evan's physique, then at the four women who check his shit out when the elevator stops. Think they're all held to the same standard?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fp93mr9H…

Cat @200: No, they're held to a different unrealistic standard, which is to be in the weight range of the bottom 1% of the population, no matter how little they have to eat to do it. Oh and they also have to have boobs. But they can't look bony at all because then the tabloids will be all "OMG eating disorder!"

And do Channing Tatum and Hugh Jackman have visible wrinkles? Case rested.

202- that does not describe the four women in that scene, although one was pretty thin. Couldn't see a boob among 'em, either. Nor the couple women in the lobby scene leading up to the elevator part.
Look, you want to say, 'male and female leads alike are (mostly) held to unrealistic body types, at least in action movies,' I won't disagree. Much of the Internet went bazongo when The Rock published his pre-Hercules diet and workout plan, with a more knowledgeable segment splitting their sides at the vast amount of drugs he used being left out of the equation. So you have doofus teenage boys who want to Rock out trying to choke down the calories he listed, without the Dianobol or clenbuterol.
Claiming that every single woman on screen is held to an unrealistic standard is untrue, and doesn't advance the conversation, I think.

Wrinkles? Famke Janssen, who's played opposite Jackman, certainly has 'em. Channing Tatum does not, at least if you Google "Channing Tatum face shot,' he doesn't return my calls no more so I haven't seen him in person recently. A lot of women in film do, especially if they're not the leads, though if I'm to sit here and give a list, I'll want payment.

Monica Belluci, the latest Bond girl, is definitely not at a bodyfat level that puts her in the 1%, nor was she in 'Brotherhood of the Wolf' where I first made her acquaintance, and neither I nor her other many male fans wants her there. You might argue that those breeding hips of hers are anomolous, but that's kind of moving the goalposts. Don't know if she has wrinkles, but do know if she sat at most bars in a sweatshirt and bike shorts, there'd be plenty of guys having a try for her.

@182, @183, & @184 LavaGirl: I didn't mean to alarm you or anyone else. What I meant was that VA processing is reputed to take 12 months or longer to get processed and issues resolved. My concerns are in earning enough to support myself in the meantime, and it has been rough in my keeping up with the cost of living without depleting what savings I have. I'm lucky I don't have a mortgage or children to put through college right now.
Otherwise, as far as my progress with the VA, it's "hurry up and wait" for now.

@191 Philophile: Thank you, too. My good friend was indeed being supportive like you were saying (I think I misunderstood what she meant by using the word reality over the phone), and was commiserating about how difficult it is to earn a living in the arts. Part-time minimum wage positions from past experience won't cover my monthly budget, so I have had to get more creative in finding income. I do have a possible music collaboration project with an established musician and composer, provided my current computer and his system are both compatible in updating and compiling the material. I am having problems with downloading some of my colleague's attached files, so I hope the project will still work out. I have until February 2016 to complete what work needs to be done on my part.

@186 BiDanFan: Thank you for the encouraging and refreshing Daniel Craig quotes. I agree; Hollywood disgustingly cranks out indeed nothing but sexist bullshit. Ironically, my brother is deep in the heart of the L.A. film and television industry. I wish him well, but am glad not to live his lifestyle--or have his commute.
@187 futurecatlady: I'm glad you and your date enjoyed a fun evening out! You go, girl!

@185 Hockey Mom: I'm glad you and your family are okay. Nature's most inclimate weather conditions can be hell.
I guess I have become allergic to macho culture. There was (and unfortunately most likely still is) in the U.S. military command & community where I once served.

Well, Cat, I don't want to get into an argument about who is held to more unrealistic beauty standards, because you and I both know it's women by a country mile, and your exceptions prove the rule.
Just watched that clip and, A, all those women are youngish and more attractive than average, with the two on the right being very slim and the two on the left being slender, and B, I think the point is they are staring at his penis, not his physique. What else could be referred to by "angle of the dangle"?

And if you don't think Monica Belluci is in the bottom 1% of body weight, you haven't been to a Wal-Mart lately.