DarkHorse @178. No it wasn't directed at you. It was a comment about what was going on in the thread. People saying what they feel. And I was just being honest, I wasn't going to join the discussion.. even though it seemed fruitful.
LateBloomer @195, yes, I tried the hotwife path until I couldn't stand it anymore. Much happier now.
Mr. P has been kind and warm, and we communicate well about our changing desires. What we see in CUCKS's letter is just a slice in time, from a hard week in their lives. I've had hard weeks like the one CUCKS describes, with fighting and talking and sex all mixed up, and no sure path through to the other side. I'm glad Mr. P and I got through okay; and I wish the best for the LW and his wife, however it turns out for them.
Ms Grizelda - Her father seemed to think this morning that the programme would buy back the ATV, which I didn't think they did; I'd seen stories of how rigid TPiR can be about prizes. I'd be afraid to go on that programme; it would be one thing to play Plinko and win cash, but I'd probably win something like an outdoor barbecue set, a sauna or some other item I'd have nowhere to put, and the taxes would probably leave me taking a loss. I still wonder whatever happened to the male model, though - not that he seemed particularly interesting (it's amazing how some people are equally attractive to both the SS gaze and the OS gaze and some are almost exclusively attractive only to one or the other, and it doesn't always match orientation), but just that there being such a person seemed to invite discussion. As the show seems geared solidly towards women, one might guess that women were behind his sacking.
*****
In other news, I've been hearing quite a few live streams lately with between 4-10 participants usually drawn mainly from a group of about 12-15 people, mostly male and mostly straight, featuring a fairly high content of the F-word. I'm a little surprised I can hear it tossed around so much (or perhaps dropped like water balloons) without just leaving, but I've been reflecting on the differences in context depending on the orientation of the speaker, whether it's said to a second party or about a third, the orientation of the object, and the orientation of the hearer. One thing that has solidified about the way I've always declined to take to Mr Savage's attempts at reclamation is how the widespread appearance of F-bombs gives cover to those for whom it isn't what I'll call Ironic Homophobia. Almost everyone who could be considered to belong to the core group is at the very least gay-accepting, and probably more than half gay-positive when they're being serious. One of them, though, is definitely at least solidly anti-gay, having written clearly anti-gay articles/posts of the "I'm one of the Reasonable Ones" flavouring. But in these streams, this person, who is less disposed than most of the others to F-bomb dropping, comes across as rather moderate. I'm still piecing together this particular jigsaw, but I'm glad finally to be able to put some form on my long-running objection to widespread F-bombing.
Why would the women be behind the male models disappearance, Venn? If he was the sort of man both men and women fancy, the women would be happy to keep him.
My guess is he got into a bit of a pickle,
a small backstage affair perhaps.
LW#2: I was single and unhappily but actively dating at 27 (just a few years ago) in Portland - not Seattle, but similar. It did suck, I did have a lot of lonely times, but I also learned a ton. Online dating in a big city is a great way (as it's fairly anonymous) to really figure out what / who you want. I'm 30 now and living elsewhere, but I did finally find my match this year and all the hard times made it that much more worth it.
I thought Chase had a pretty reasonable view of the situation. I think the factor that most effects whether she can make a simple apology or needs to change bad habits (for which it is probably easier in the long run to DTMFA), is if he is happy exercising his DADT rights. If he has never exercised them, it may be too late to correct for the power imbalance.. perhaps the biggest right that people commonly freely give up in relationships is the right to try to sleep with whomever we want. If in practice only she has the right to sleep with others, even if consensual, that power imbalance would be really difficult to negotiate I think. Even though he signed off as CUCKS and seems to love hearing about his wife's outside sex, I think LB is right and he's not happy as an actual cuckhold... or he wouldn't be writing in. However if he had enjoyed his DADT rights, he could frame this as her chafing at having to disclose, which is not so unfair, and consider closing back up to monogamy and going back to the drawing board for monogamish rules, having both enjoyed their extra rights.
Eudaemonic has his own strengths and weaknesses, like the rest of us. I don't think he's a monster or bad person or whatever. But no use pretending that losing control and attacking people, instead of ideas, is anything but weakness. Appealing to force instead of reason to get your way happens only when reason fails to convince. And you'll meet people who will attack right back or call a higher authority (useless mods, like increasingly useless cops), as well as those who simply ignore and reject you. I hope he realizes that bold and italics and name calling and character assassination is a sign that he's losing, not winning, and continues to post when he can refrain from losing. I've assumed he was an INTJ with PTSD working through his issues here. And I'd like to think he acts more fully like a winner over time, that this thread is more of an exception these days.
Ms Lava - One could make any of several guesses, and unfortunately I'm probably not going to be able to see this one through to the end. I can think of three - the Misogyny angle that men in charge think that it was too unmanly a role, the Misandry angle that female pressure groups won't accept moving towards male equality in women-dominated fields until after female equality in targeted men-dominated fields has been achieved first, or the Paradox angle that women say they want men to break out of tradcon gendre roles, but then when men do women go off them. Take your choice.
@211 vennominon: Yoiks---! That's so true about The Price is Right game show on how they award non-cash prizes. You HAVE to take THAT particular prize if it's merchandise (i.e.: you can't just go to a local car dealership and order a new car---THAT brand new car on the stage must be shipped to YOUR home and at YOUR expense!), and, yes, I too have read and heard horror stories about past winners getting into serious tax trouble because of this.
I agree---PLINKO or Punch-a-Bunch would be my preferred game options, with hopes of landing $1.00 on the Showcase Showdown wheel for the bonus cash. I hope your lady friend can sell the ATV if it becomes a financial hassle to keep.
I haven't seen TPiR in a long time, obviously. I would have remembered a male model. Janice Pennington, Holly Holstrom, and Dyan Parkinson stick out in my memory of TPiR models from long past when Bob Barker was the host and Johnny Olsen the announcer to "Come on DOWN!". Thanks for the trip down memory lane, venn.
@214 Philophile: I'm dealing with military related PTSD and grief. I don't see myself getting particularly violent towards anybody, but I do have a long-developed high allergy to anything overtly macho, bible-thumpin', woman-hatin', pro-gun, oil-soaked Republican frat-boy.
For me, some days are easier than others.
@218, Part II, re @214: I'm not defending Eudamonic's rants and extremely belligerent trolling.
Life has sudden;y taken a harsh economic turn downward for me, and I'm trying to deal with it the best I can.
Hunter @ 209
Granted, there were people here who didn’t like Party Line since inception, which I’m solely responsible to.
Yet I felt there was some momentum building, and the consensus seemed to be one that advocates moving slowly and develope ideas together.
Then you started throwing people around and on top of each other, an act that gave us a fairly poor publicity as some on the sidelines started booing. We also lost BDF and maybe the two others besides us who ever contributed to the party.
Later when even I gave up you came up with the 12-hour rule.
Also, including yourself in the storyline in a sexual context does not make it ok for you to include other non-consenting commenters in similar situations.
But then again, I’m the one responsible to get all this rolling.
So in the hope of restoring civility I’ll do my part as I hereby declare that the party, at least the copyrighted one I started, is over.
Lets call it “a learning experience” and continue happily or not with our lives.
@222 LavaGirl: Thanks for the invitation in spirit. Big sisterly hugs and VW beeps back. I am not broke---yet---but seem to continually have consistently poor financial advisers concerning investments, savings, and management of my own small business. So I am currently exploring alternate resources and channels.
@224 EricaP: Thanks, Erica, for your kind support, too. I have business appointments next week---so I hope I can hear something better than the pathetically futile "Take anything! / Part-time minimum wage is better than nothing" approach to trying to ease budget woes that my latest financial adviser (replacing my previous one who has just abruptly jumped ship without warning after five years) gave me this week. There is also a veterans' PTSD /grief support group that I am joining to deal with past / present stressors.
Meantime, I have my music and love bug to keep me going, so it's getting there.
I dont engage with the crazy part of Eud... but i do typically engage with the "interesting point" side of his posts... I just find it easier to ignore the crazy and attempt to discern more info on specific points he makes that have substance. Just as i would not attempt to have a conversation about the existence of god with a hard core believer... but i would happily engage in a deep conversation about what that belief means to them....
I don't think that Eud is a troll.... i just think he sees things in very black and white terms... and i personally live in the middle of a sea of gray... so will never agree with his points without many exclusions. I once asked Eud why he seemed to always shout "listen to me" out of one side of his mouth and "you're too stupid to understand me" out of the other.... and did he not see that as self-defeating behavior.... but alas... that did not turn into a long conversation about introspection. hee haw! (thats from my jackass)
... and not to pick on you CMD... but i also thought the Party Line was tedious. Good effort though! ;)
And it may not offend the men here so much, because his rage, Mr E's, is mainly directed at/ about women.
Telling us, we are the only sex whose feelings matter, etc. etc. over and over is like a form of brainwashing.
Maybe his bullshit concurs with some other men's feelings about women, that's why his insidious form of abusing females has been allowed to continue for so long.
Mr E's mother and or father may have told him, repeatedly, that boys have to not talk of their feelings. Or that women's feelings are always the only ones that matter. I don't know his pathology nor do I want to know it.
In my experience of the people on this thread, most everyone seems very clear that we are all adults, trying to work thru the knots of life.
The trans*/cis men say their bit. The trans*/cis women say theirs, about all these questions people ask.
And when issues arise between the genders, across the genders, people are passionate with their viewpoints, and cross pollinate ideas.
So no. No to Mr E's constant attempt to work thru a deep and personal issue,( that I feel he needs professional help with to sort) with such
angry and misplaced reasoning.
Hey everyone - I think this comment board resembles 'real' relationships, in that there are good weeks and bad weeks, and every once in a while someone goes off half cocked, so to speak. I have to admit that when things get nasty, I tend to refrain from commenting and sit it out. But I don't know that my absence is noticed, or causes any concern, as I'm not a prolific poster.
I was a little perplexed by BAD's panic-tinged gloom and doom. Everyone's milage varies, but for the record, I started dating again at the age of 48, after 17 years off the dating market and as the single parent of a demanding school-aged child. Statistically, my chances of finding a good match were pretty low, considering my gender, age, and life circumstances.
I used Lovelab for 6 months, and Match concurrently for the 6th month. I went on about one date with a new person per month, and went on three dates with one of those people. About the time I was ready to give up and take down my profiles, I met my current SO. To satisfy enquiring minds, we did not fuck on the first date, nor the second, nor even the third. We are still together nearly two years later.
@Philo: emasculated. Why does he use this word [emasculated] instead of "wronged"?
Probably because he identifies as masculine. It's how I'd feel if I were in his shoes. It's a sickening feeling. Made the letter difficult to read, especially the mindfuck of the visit with his wife and her boyfriend where she left him out of the loop.
If he's interested in preserving his masculinity, he needs to start fucking other girls, or he needs to walk away from this woman. Or both.
P.S. I think Eud's ranting here is ultimately just an expression of pain at the manner in which this guy was fucked over by his wife.
Usually with pain Sean, one yells ouch. Not you the only sex that feels, you females, no better than rape apologists etc.
And I ask the same question as Philo. What is this emasculation, can a man be stripped of his masculinity by others? Is there a similar word for women when a man deceives her, and what is the word.
De feminization, is that it.
Ms Lava - That might be how anyone got onto the show, less likely to be why anyone was dumped. But I can think of a fourth option, which I'll call the Hallstrom. You may recall how poor Holly got fired because Bob Barker claimed she was too fat. Presumably she declined his advances, as I cannot recall her ever breaking a trampoline. And, considering that I never heard of any great gaffe he made (it's not as if he ever revealed the price of a car too soon, and nobody got fired over that), a star snit seems more likely than lack of merit.
Seandr [232] - You still haven't explained why this attacks him as a man and not a person. Women use the word "dehumanizing" when their self worth is attacked this way. Using "emasculating" implies that self worth is a property of being male, as opposed to a property of being human.
Re Fucking over
Maybe this guy was fucked over by his wife. If you make the most negative assumptions about her, that she's the only one sleeping around, that she's been sabotaging his DADT opportunities when she's in town, and discouraged him from dating when she's out of town... then she fucked him over.
However if you you make the equally valid assumptions that he's had his own fun with DADT, that she's generously looked the other way about lipstick stains or late nights or other DADT problem areas, then it wouldn't be fucking him over, more like she's pushing back against some hypocrisy in the relationship, refusing to be vetoed this time.
Perhaps it was difficult for you to read because it was difficult to empathize with a man who enjoyed his wife's extramarital adventures. That is one clear part of the letter, imo, with the code, and the big load.
Hunter, I'll probably regret asking, but what are "Dbirds?" I've seen you refer to them before.
Still Thinking, I consider you a regular. It's a shame when you feel discouraged from posting because of hostility here.
LavaGirl, Philophile, it is weird for you to judge that men shouldn't feel emasculated by others or that feeling emasculated is a response that you don't think carries as much weight as being dehumanized. I'm a woman and I can understand how unnerving or upsetting it would be to feel emasculated if I were a man. I don't think it's an act of misogyny for a man to feel his core identity is realized in his manliness. LavaGirl, you have often championed what sounds like gender essentialism, so I guess I shouldn't be particularly surprised that you think that people;s sense of gender or self or worth can be affected by what others do to them or think of them or what they think others think of them. But I think whether good or bad, a lot of our sense of self-identity, or self-worth, is tied to how other people perceive us or our perception of how other people perceive us. It's all very well to say we shouldn't let that happen or we should rise above it, but for practical purposes, it's as useful as people telling BAD that she she should just get over her feelings. It doesn't generally work that way.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that men can feel both dehumanized and emasculated--the two are not mutually exclusive, and I can easily see not only why feeling emasculated would be an uncomfortable, or even devastating feeling, but also why CUCK would feel that way in the circumstances.
Still Thinking @ 167 last week and @ 231 this week
Further enlightening handy tips:
Get a narrow pillow of some sort or fold one, so that he can sit on it while his balls are slightly pushed up, and place a small vibrator in there for balls sensation.
This allows you to have both hands and mouth to play with his penis. If your nails are painted it may add a visual added value to some.
As someone who likes gentle teasing I’d recommend licking and gentle sucking of the head while the fingers are dancing up and down. This set up, minus the mouth, also works well for my solo sessions and often results in a very nice outcome.
Another aspect of hand job goes with lingerie, which is a huge turn on for me. Place a satin slip or nightie of some sort on his penis and move your hand back and forth. Feel the sensation for both of you. You can go all the way with it and have him come right there. Just don’t use any silk garments as cum stains, even the smallest pre cum ones, are impossible to wash.
Nocute, I just don't see being lied to sexually Etc has got anything to do with feeling like a male. Or feeling like a female.
Emasculation is the only word that operates this way. There is no equivalent for a woman.
Circumcision, I can understand that being referred to as a form of emasculation. Removing part of a man's genitals. Other than that, I think that word is meaningless and encourages big ego responses in men.
Lipstick stains are a powerful passive-aggressive way to "tell".
Or a sign that someone isn't used to deception, or doesn't obsess about their appearance. I agree that smell is more often overlooked than visual signs. In any case, the mature response is to ask your partner to change or shower or brush their teeth, direct them to the proper way to remedy their indiscretion, instead of just venting angry jealousy.
NoCute - I'm a woman and I can understand how unnerving or upsetting it would be to feel emasculated if I were a man.
Ok, it looks like you have a lot of empathy for how men's sense of masculinity can be taken away with bad treatment. But can you think of a way you would feel less feminine when being treated badly? I have only seen the opposite; a trans woman feeling like she could pass better, "more feminine", the first time she was interrupted by a man, "treated badly". So from my perspective, these stories imply that self worth is a property of manhood, and a property that negates femininity. I both disagree and find the concept to be harmful to women (misogynist). Because I think that expecting to be treated well is a strength, as long as you're not relying on others. FWIW, my sense of femininity is tied to my body and my comfort in my own skin. How other people treat me has little to do with my femininity. For me, it's more about my hormones and cycle and genitals, and the gendered social norms I adopt and those I reject. If I have reason to believe that I am treated badly because I am a woman, it doesn't make me feel less feminine, instead I feel bad about being born female. Thus I think it hurts me as a person, it does not take away from my femininity. When being treated well is part of being a man, it implies that women are not required to be treated well. Perhaps I should just say that I disagree that men and women should be treated differently, so I mostly disagree that femininity or masculinity can be "taken" with any particular treatment, except by/from bigots. I say mostly because I can see a case for lopping off genitals being emasculating or efeminizing.
I can easily see not only why feeling emasculated would be an uncomfortable, or even devastating feeling, but also why CUCK would feel that way in the circumstances.
Then please explain, as I've tried to outline why I think it indicates misogyny.
CUCK'S heart and mind were hurting,
women have hearts and minds as well. It just adds that extra, important dimension, when a man can label his pain, his human pain, as emasculation.
Venn, then maybe that's your answer.
If he got onto the show thru playing with the male producer, then his incompetence in the job maybe did him in.
I wish I could jump my mind into all your references, I like the map you draw anyway.
@LavaGirl: Usually with pain Sean, one yells ouch.
Lots of people express pain by going on the attack, including you on a number of occasions. Rage is an easy and in some cases habituated outlet. Not everyone has the awareness or ability to pursue the more productive strategies of dealing with pain exhibited by people like @EricaP.
The pain->rage trigger may even serve an adaptive function in some contexts (e.g., combat, abusive situations, a public school playground in the 70s & 80s).
But I'd say it's decidedly maladaptive here in the SLOG comments.
Before I read your comment Sean.
I think the word emasculate, also takes responsibility off the person for their own pain.
" I was emasculated" full stop. It was done to me.
Feelings have to be owned before we can deal with them. Yes, a loved one has hurt our feelings, then what? The process has to keep moving on or one is stuck way back at the first heart ache by deceit.
You know what I meant Sean. and I have affection for Mr E.
Just enough of that scary stuff. I had a husband who for thirty yrs played that game on me. That control the environment thru abusive rage. He interspersed it enough with loving behaviour, that I didn't fully notice how abused I was. Until I got away from him.
It is emotional paradise to have no one behaving like that in my life. I'd just prefer Mr E didn't do that behaviour here. Only my opinion.
@230 Still Thinking: I, like nocutename, consider you among warmly welcome regular SL commenters, and often feel I can relate to you. Good for you for finding your SO at age 48.
Like you, when comments get hostile, I take a break from the comment thread and try again later.
@237 nocutename: I'm guessing Hunter's Dbird term has something to do with yelling DTMFA ("Dump the motherfucker already!", as Dan might phrase it).
@243 seandr: Wow---you just scored a direct bullseye in describing my pain and past hurts [The pain->rage trigger may even serve an adaptive function in some contexts (e.g., combat, abusive situations, a public school playground in the 70s & 80s)]. But I agree--for me, PTSD / grief counseling is infinitely more productive and suitable than viciously blasting off on a comment thread. Thank you, seandr, Dan, and everyone, for bearing with all the times that I have done exactly that on SLOG.
@240: Philophile, that was a very eloquent post and I agree with you about the inherent misogyny in much male identity. But I also see things in shades of gray, and think that there is intentional or even just conscious misogyny and there is unconscious or deeply-rooted, maybe even reptile-brained misogyny gender essentialism, too, and the two probably frequently coexist.
I don't know about you, but one of my favorite things about sex when sex is really good, is the way I experience feeling reduced to my most female and feminine essence. I feel quintessentially feminine--and I love that feeling, which I only attain through sex--not because I feel disempowered, or weak, or fragile, or in any way less than. Rather, I experience my essential femininity in an associatedly gender-neutral value system: it isn't better than being masculine or worse than being masculine, but it's profoundly distinct from feeling masculine, and even very distinct from how I generally feel in a non-sexual situation, in which I don't always have a sense of feeling so very gendered at all. This feeling feminine doesn't feel "gendered" at all, as a matter of fact, because it's not so much performative in nature, nor cultural, nor somehow learned. It isn't behavior; it's essence. When I feel feminine, which I do through good sex, I feel distilled to my core essence--an essentially feminine thing.
I don't think I'm explaining this well, but it's the best I can do. At some point, like Virginia Woolf said, Words Fail.
Anyway, that feeling of feminine-essence, associated with sex, is a key aspect of my sense of self, as anything associated with my sexuality and sexual identity contributes hugely to my sense of core self and self identity. If that feeling were challenged, as I think it could very well be, though a kind of sex or sex-related experience that went against my sense of self-sexual identity, I could see feeling profoundly adrift, identity-wise. That feeling of being cut loose from an established and perhaps cherished part of that self-definition would indeed be unnerving.
I think we need to differentiate between learned behaviors and responses and those which might be reinforced by culture and learned behavior--sure--but which are rooted in something reptile-brain-deep, and which it it might not only be useless to try to change, but which it might be somewhat desirable for people to retain.
I'm all for taking good hard looks at how we follow some old and undesirable cultural scripts, of trying to change even entrenched behaviors if they're at odds with our conscious value systems. That's what I, as a feminist, think we should all do all the time. But I'm also going to cut myself and others some slack for the ways in which culture taps into what I think are some pretty deeply-wired roles and responses. It's why I don't feel guilty for my submissive sexuality, but why I wouldn't want to be with someone who wanted me to be submissive outside a sexual context, and why I need the person I'm with to recognize my submission as a gift to him and not something just anyone gets from me under any circumstances. It's why I don't waste time worrying that I have to turn in my feminist card because I like to be humiliated during sex. It allows me to separate the sexual behavior of my partner from his non-sexual behavior so I don't either inadvertently date a misogynist or think my non-misogynist partner is anti-feminist.
It seems to me that some part of CUCK's sense of self is contributed to by his sexual self-identity; that sexual self-identity was challenged by a sexual pattern that CUCK doesn't like or want to be associated with. This sexual self-identity may be rooted in old, deep misogynism, its true, but that misogyny isn't necessarily part of CUCK's conscious belief or value system just because it exists in his reptile brain. I think trying to challenge that core part of his sense of self identity--his essential masculinity is pointless: impossible to change and unnecessary to be changed for him to still be a feminist.
@246 LavaGirl: Another big hug from me and VW beeps your way. I was married almost 10 years after foolishly dating and living with an equally abusive and manipulative man who convinced me to marry him anyway (despite everyone else around me asking if I was crazy at the time), and 14 years later after my divorce, still find his complete absence from my life a blessed relief and that both of us have individually moved on. I share in your celebrating the emotional paradise of nobody behaving like that around me, anymore.
The social red flags of my past ugliness are highly visible, and I'm dealing with emotional triggers. At least I know what situations are best (for me, anyway) to avoid, and supportive networks to contact. I'm fortunate that there are good people here within my local community (PTSD / grief counseling, veteran's center).
Yes Grizelda, my sons have tried it on.. their father's ways. Its different with them, they really don't want it anymore in their lives either, so we work issues thru, with love. Except when we don't.
Work in progress. Love and hugs back to you.
@248 nocutename: Sending big hugs and VW beeps to you, too. Well said. I am currently struggling with finding middle ground on deeply entrenched social and cultural wirings and learned behaviors.
A recent case in point: my seeking membership at a nearby VFW in an attempt to expand my social activity last week over Veteran's Day and afterward proved to be a BIG mistake. Not a good environment for me there. Blatant hostility towards unmarried, childless female veterans over 40 who don't look old and gray. Male chauvinists, and jealous wives and /or girlfriends of veterans & active service members abound. I'll pass. At least there's a wonderful PTSD / grief counselor in my age group at the vet's center who is encouraging and with whom I have another appointment again soon.
@233 vennominon: I really feel sorry for Holly Hallstrom, then, and everyone like her who has been so unfairly discriminated against. That really is a lame excuse on Bob Barker's part to fire her. I never thought any of the female models on TPiR were ever the least bit overweight, but *sigh* then again, that's looks-obsessed Los Angeles and most of Southern California.
NoCute - I think I see what you're getting at. Sexual acceptance makes a person feel more feminine or masculine, depending on your gender, and sexual rejection takes away from that gender pride. It does make sense in theory, although I can't really empathize. Thanks, that sits better than my misogyny theory.
Perhaps I feel like a more successful woman, the better I understand my sexual response, and the better I can negotiate good sex with others. I'm definitely very happy when a cock plays nice with my pussy.. like I'm happy about how I'm shaped.. But I think I feel feminine all the time, the collection of traits that I think would change if my chromosomes had been XY. Sex and reproduction is a big part of it, but my femininity is everywhere I interact with other people. It's social just as much as sexual, neurological just as much as genital, for me. I don't think this confers or denies me any different rights from anyone else, just a different biological reality. I'm not sure where our differences are exactly. Yes sometimes words fail but it's nice to try.
Couple disagreements. I don't think you can differentiate which desires are environmentally learned and how, from those caused by genetic expression. You can guess at which experiences formed your desires, or why it would make sense for certain desires to be hard coded, but can't prove that some specific desire formed through experience/Pavlovian learning or genetic expression rewiring your brain. Further I don't think nature (biology) is stronger than nurture (experience). If one's sense of self preservation can be overwhelmed by experience, anything can, imo. And people do commit suicide. And develop successful aversions to reproduction, the other super strong biological imperative. It's only an important question if you'd like to change your desires, which can happen if they become problematic to satisfy, and I'm more of a fan of cognitive behavioral therapy than psychotherapy in that case anyway. I have no moral/ethical problems with feelings, only behavior, and only such behavior it's reasonable to consider harmful to oneself/others. Also I don't think male identity is misogynistic unless it is tied to some form of behavioral hypocrisy/unequal rights. Like men deserve fidelity (and women don't). Or women deserve to be materially provided for (and men don't). Or women deserve to raise their kids (and men don't)... there's female entitlement, too.
I'm wondering if feeling emasculated is tied into the still-strong notion that you have to earn your manhood. I find much less of an emphasis on this for women, from what I've observed. Women seem to be women because of who they are, men are men because of what they accomplish. Add onto that that sex is somewhat performance-based for men, more so than for women--you have to be able to deliver, you have to be able to satisfy in order to be a real man--you have a sense of masculinity that can be earned with success, but also taken away by failure. (I'm not endorsing these notions, just observing that they exist, and I'm also brutally over-simplifying.) So if you're man enough that a woman wants to hang around and fuck you on the regular, you must be doing something right and can take a certain amount of pride in that. If your regular-fucking girlfriend finds it more fun to fuck someone else regularly and lies to you about it (or at least omits to tell you), it's a clear signal that the pride you had in your abilities was misplaced, and you are less of a man than you thought you were. Emasculated.
I see women humiliated by partners who cheat on them, but I don't get the same sense of their femininity being threatened. They are still women. But men whose partners cheat on them are less of a man somehow. I suspect that's what CUCK is referring to. I don't see it as misognynist, I see it rooted in a long tradition of manhood being something you earn and therefore can lose again if your performance falls below a certain standard.
@256 gonzo: The first half got pretty wild, didn't it?
@257 LateBloomer & @258 nocutename: Me three----I sensed the exact same thing, too, but like nocutename aptly observed, I didn't feel I had the credibility to point this out as I'm also viewing from yet another woman's standpoint.
Dan and guys? What's your take on this?
These some of the same men who beat up on trans* women and gay men because they don't adhere to this long tradition of manhood, Late?
If a woman cheats on a man it may humiliate him, I don't understand how it effects his masculinity.
I see the odious nature of men who claim emasculation, in the readiness of many men upon finding out their women have cheated on them to feel justified in hitting said women.
@262: Still an expensive lay at $6,600.00 in cash for one night in a cheap motel room, but a mean road trip to Mexico. Too bad it ended up in the Grand Canyon. Oh well. A girl can dream.
LateBloomer@ 257
Nocute @ 258
Aunt Zelda @ 259
For good or bad a pretty accurate description as my opinion.
Lava @ 260
“These some of the same men who beat up on trans* women and gay men because they don't adhere to this long tradition of manhood, Late?”
Yes, but not only. More men then women reject transwomen or gay men because they feel those people have willingly gave up their men’s entitlements, therefore unworthy. They may also feel threatened because of it.
Others may be terrified that those individuals may be attracted to them. It’s even worse and can get violent if they themselves are attracted to any of those people and are totally freaked out as a result.
Another Griz Update: At my blessedly common sensed, equally concerned brother's and two local friends' advising me, I am going forth to seek a local financial adviser and transfer what I still have closer to home.
Everyone please, please, wish me luck on finding sustainable employment (I understand the local community college needs help in the music dept, so I'm checking that out, too). Alcoa is laying off 400 employees, so the job market is only going to get worse where I live. And we're supposed to get another wretched Arctic storm over the next few days--yuck!
@264 Still Thinking: You're most warmly welcome.
@265 CMDwannabe: Thanks. It's good to know we're on a similar page---I so often feel I don't understand men at all.
LateBloomer @257, If we live in a meritocracy (not going to argue yea or nay on that) then it could be argued that it is misogynistic, or at least deeply unfair, that men can gain status/power by their accomplishments and performance but women can't.
I don't think what I just said is wholly true or untrue, but that there is some truth to it in many cases.
Other than that, I think what you said is right on, and like you, not endorsing any part of the whole situation, just observing.
LB - I'm wondering if feeling emasculated is tied into the still-strong notion that you have to earn your manhood.
This makes me a sad panda in two ways. For women, and for men. I'm sorry that men in my culture can feel threatened in some special way when they fail to behave well enough. I'm sorry that women have put up with men feeling extra special because they were both men and good people. At least trans men can presumably gain manhood rights, so there is a way for cis women to compete.
A good man and a good woman don't have separate requirements, to me. Self sufficient (don't harm yourself) and respectful (don't harm others) pretty much sums up my ethical priorities. And self aware enough to grow.
Expecting anyone else to agree that you've earned extra rights by being a man and a good person is going to disappoint. Some boys club types will agree it should happen. But men can't actually earn fidelity. With cute face or cash or talented tongue. People give their fidelity to whomever they want.
But people will fill holes of insecurity by assuming they are better than others by nature, no matter what works better in reality. Boo. I don't like when people feel bad about themselves and overly defensive, they can easily turn into abusive assholes. What you need to do should be fine if it's not hurting anyone.
With this letter, she agreed to a certain kind of fidelity, and couldn't keep her agreement. Her bad, not his faulty manhood (and why bother with this ridiculous train of thought again?). Although if he stopped disclosing to her, he should understand why she may have thought it fair to do the same, even if she wasn't self aware enough to address it with him beforehand. (If he feels that fidelity is owed, he may have trouble seeing this point.) And at the opposite extreme, if he has been monogamous to her, giving her great latitude and she has grabbed more, let her swing at the end of that rope until she remembers why it's important to respect others.
Lava @180: Thank you. I am largely over it, but reading the crap Eudaemonic writes, for want of a less PC word, is triggering. After I made my posts I was literally shaking and had an elevated heart rate. That's why I haven't been back until now -- DarkHorse @171 was correct that his abuse has made me stay away, because I just don't need that kind of shit. (DarkHorse, I am sorry that you, too, had an experience similar to mine.)
And I also do want to thank everyone else here for, well, being humans instead of trolls. I've learned a lot from this board, possibly even more than I've learned from Dan's LWs themselves. We may disagree -- we may sometimes vociferously disagree -- but we speak to each other civilly.
Now catching up on the rest of the thread as it seems my least favourite troll has been told where to go, and has gone. Hurrah!
Lava @185: I think the word you want is "toddler."
Erica @186: "The pain he's in"? I made the mistake, the first time I experienced Eud going off on one of his "woman has bent the rules, she's a rapist" rants of giving him the benefit of presuming his attitude was based on his own experience of being cheated on. Not only did he deny this, but he lashed out at me for even suggesting it. So fuck his supposed pain. He hasn't got any, only his victims do.
Late @193: The bit you missed was that he finds the idea of his wife having sex with other men kinda hot. So long as she tells him about it. So allowing her some sexual freedom is not a complete act of altruism on his part.
CMD @221: Sorry for leaving the party early! I thought the first Party Line sub-thread was fun as it involved some of us here, but it arose organically, it wasn't some kind of premeditated format like the subsequent ones were. And yes, very off-topic and off-putting to some.
Sean @232: Unless he is lying (and we know how he feels about "liars"), he hasn't got a past cheating trauma as an excuse for his abhorrent and misogynist attitude. I could be more forgiving if he had.
Lava @0: There isn't a female-equivalent word to "emasculated." Which is a shame. Because it's how I feel when I go bra shopping or see images where a woman is defined by the size of her cleavage. It's not only a humiliation, it's an attack on your gender identity. Real men this... real women that. And it is telling that there isn't a female version, because in most cases, being "less feminine" or "less womanly" is not seen as something humiliating. "You're not like other girls" is usually considered a compliment.
seandr, now that we're tackling "manhood" "masculinity" and "emasculation," I want to address a comment you made @232. You said: "Probably because he identifies as masculine. It's how I'd feel if I were in his shoes. It's a sickening feeling. Made the letter difficult to read, especially the mindfuck of the visit with his wife and her boyfriend where she left him out of the loop.
If he's interested in preserving his masculinity, he needs to start fucking other girls, or he needs to walk away from this woman. Or both."
I know you often have your tongue in your cheek, but this sounded sincere to me, so I'm going on that assumption. Do you really think that the only way a man in this situation--a wronged husband who's been cheated on--can preserve his masculinity is by either fucking other women or leaving his marriage? Did you mean that in only this case, or is that your standard response to all cases of infidelity wherein the wife is the one who cheats? In a hypothetical more straightforward case of infidelity, would you consider that the man had only those two courses of action if he wanted to regain his masculinity--if indeed you think that any act of infidelity not mutually agreed upon in advance by both man and woman has an emasculating effect? What happens if a wife cheats, gets caught or confesses, exhibits great remorse, and the two talk it through, come to a renewed closeness ,and re-establish monogamy? Under that scenario, do you still see the husband as somehow emasculated? And if so, is the only cure for emasculation to "fuck other girls, or . . . walk away from" the woman who cheated?
Ms Lava - Actually it was a female model (I think Manuela) who made the car gaffe, and she didn't get fired (though she deserved to be demoted from games where the model had to do something important); a contestant had two or three guesses from among five price tags in a game in which the model pulled off the choice. After revealing the first wrong guess, she zoned out and pulled off the top remaining tag, which was the right price. They had to give the contestant the car.
Ms Grizelda - I think because Janice Pennington (who, I think I remember hearing, appeared in Playboy) and Dian Parkinson (a former Miss USA? and, I'm almost certain, a confirmed Barker boinker) were so similar, Holly stood out even more than Anitra Ford (who left before the models had an increased presence in the programme) had done before her, because her hair was shorter as well as darker.
Perhaps we should start a campaign to get Mx Wanna a TPiR gig.
I suspect the humiliation and public derision of the cuckold is an atavism, to do with the massive reproductive failure represented by letting a cuckoo lay an egg in your nest and raising another man’s child for him.
Alison, yes there's something inherent in the "being-played-for-a fool" angle of "unwittingly-raising-another-bird's-chicks" that might be fueling the emasculation attendant to cuckoldom. Though of course, the mark of a cuckold is horns, making the man goat-like, as opposed to a bird-related image, which is odd, because goats are also associated with Pan, Bacchus, Dionysus, all the wild drinking/sex/debauchery gods. And certainly, no one's putting anything over on them and they're hardly emasculated figures. So you would think that the horns would be reserved for the man who is cukolding the wife--the (presumably) extra-virile guy who has turned the poor schnook into a cuckold without his knowledge.
Hmmm.
RE Cuck
I have lived long enough to have personally known 3 couples into the whole "hotwife-cuckold-open-relation ship" experimenting. AFAIK two of the couples are still together.
IMHO The LW seems to object to getting what he actually wants IN TOO LARGE A PORTION. It almost seems, (to use a beach analogy) that he wishes his hot wife to play in front of him 100% of the time at the water's edge, whereas she has taken it into the deeper waters where he cannot see what is happening beneath the waves and is out of his ken.
He, seemingly is not so upset that his wife is trysting, as he is that he is not right there to say where the limits are. My take is that CUCK wants Dan to side with him on shaming his hotwife and sort of bring her back into the shallows.
It is a dicey game and made for real adults who can cope with changing situations, and communitcate:...I say, be careful what you wish for!
Re mr E
The cobra avatar told me a lot the first time I saw it. The personal insults do not belong here amongst we few Dan fans. Disagreement is fine.
Philo @ 270
“At least trans men can presumably gain manhood rights, so there is a way for cis women to compete.”
Not so fast. It’s a false assumption that trans people automatically fit in with their newly reassigned/declared gender and all that it entails.
Trans men, like trans women, have to go through a lot of stuff- personal, family, social acceptance, etc.- and assuming they will be fully accepted as men is often unattainable.
I suspect you meant no harm, just an example leading to the rest of your post, but it still may be misleading.
Sean @279: I know -- I'm just saying, it's not only no excuse, it's not even an explanation. Because he wasn't cheated on and that's not why he has such a humungous chip on his shoulder. So he says.
Re: cheating and emasculation -- one of the ways in which society stereotypes "manliness" is that a "man" is studly and can always please his woman. If the woman cheats, then that's taken as evidence that her partner wasn't pleasing her, and therefore is "less of a man" than the man she cheated with. That's why there's an element of humiliation to cuckolds beyond that of female infidelity victims. Society does not expect women to be studs who always satisfy their man -- in fact, it's quite the opposite, with women more likely to be shamed for being too horny. Yay, gender stereotypes.
StillThinking
Here’s a link to a hands-only video that features a fairly close technique to what I was talking about.
Ignore the story line. Despite the “cfnm femdom” in the title it caters mostly for men, like the vast majority of pornography.
Just follow the lube-free movement.
And despite the female star looking strikingly similar to a former co-worker, this video is not likely to be tolerated by most employers. http://www.xvideos.com/video2470323/sexy…
@282, Love the fact that they're carrying on this conversation the whole time, "Oh, cheerio, what do you think of the Queen's new carriage upholstery?" "Lovely, lovely..."
Ms Cute@273 - I think the cure depends on which gender at the moment is perceived to hold the advantage in the divorce court. More seriously, your proposed cure doesn't restrict the requisite agency to the patient. If that were a requirement, what would you propose?
CMD [280] - I think it's generally accepted that trans men are men and trans women are women, but I agree that's not universal. However any trans man who passes well enough to conceal their birth gender will receive "male treatment" from those who believe in "male treatment". And maybe you've found that when you pass as a woman you are treated differently by people who believe in "female treatment".
In my experience, I've tried to treat people who I was aware were trans, as if they have an interest in their new gender's issues. Like I try to assume that trans women care about abortion access and the glass ceiling. But I also keep in mind that they probably still care about prostate cancer screening too. I think that's pretty much how I consciously treat the genders differently; acknowledging typical gendered interests.
Regarding earning one's manhood: I don't see it as inherently misogynist, although it certainly can be, depending how it's played. Doing things differently doesn't have to always mean being unfair. For those who think it favors men over women: you are imagining it from the point of view of someone who successfully earns manhood. Imagine it from the point of view of the poor schmuck who, no matter how hard he tries, never seems to get it right. It's a closed club, and the established members set the guidelines and decide who's in or who's not, if I understand correctly. Much like how women are the chief slut-shamers, it's mostly the men who are policing the earners of manhood. So Philo, saying that CUCK doesn't need to feel that his manhood is threatened is nice, but that won't resonate for him emotionally. "Cheer up, CUCK, turns out your manhood isn't threatened after all." "Oh, OK." So sure, if you buy into this notion, you give yourself the chance to earn your manhood, but you also run the risk of feeling like less of a man your whole life if you don't have what it takes, or of becoming less of a man through an unhappy marriage or whatever. I would have thought that that kind of uncertainty about your identity would be stressful and less preferable to, say, being handed your femininity at puberty. And it's not like you get extra points for being a decent human and a man, you get negative points for being a decent human but not enough of a man. The baseline is earned manhood, and all you can do is either meet the standard or fall below it. (Ridiculous generalizations and the usual disclaimers apply.)
Philo, I think that culture can override biological hankerings, but for awhile, not forever. I think with the passage of time one's basic desires start to clamor for more attention the longer they're ignored. So if there are inherent differences between men and women (and my personal view is that there are) then you can idealistically strong-arm them into a relationship mould where everything is even-steven, but it's going to take great effort to keep them that way long term. Also, your requirements are very general, and the devil is in the interpretations: of course you should not harm others or yourself, but who decides what is "respectful" and what is "harm"? And what if holding back for the sake of my partner harms me, or vice versa--how far do we let that go? To illustrate how harm can mean different things to different people: I can tease my son and he think it's hilarious and dishes it back; I tease my daughter and she is devastated. Yet I've treated them both the same. I don't think absolute symmetry is possible or even desireable in a mixed-gender relationship.
BDF, I did note that CUCK is turned on by his wife's adventures, but obviously only to a certain extent. Beyond that he feels betrayed and deceived (and his manhood threatened). I thought sb53's analogy @273 was apt. And having been in a similar situation myself, I found that I could be turned on by the thought of Mrs. B being a hotwife while simultaneously feeling anxious and jealous. CUCK seems to be in the same boat. No, it's not 100% altruistic, but in my case I had to learn how to be turned on in order to mitigate the anxiety--but the anxiety remained. It was a weird tension, but the price I paid for having the freedom to meet other women, so still basically selfish in motivation. And riffing on what I was just floundering about trying to explain to Philo, the perfectly fair, tit-for-tat arrangement Mrs. B and I came up with actually wasn't fair--it didn't address the fact that we had different needs when it comes to extra-marital affairs, something neither of us knew until experience taught us otherwise (you listening, CUCK?).
Philo @ 285
Most trans people are not 100% passable, nor do they want to go through all the procedures.
This is what makes this Caitlyn Jenner circus so disturbing. More people now assume that a born-male who wears a dress on occasion is secretly saving money for "the operation," and will only be accepted as a woman if "going all the way."
I'm pretty passable, up to my neck. My nose is likely to disclose me, but is not going to be modified any time soon.
Trans men have similar issues stemming from their perspectives, I'll let them speak for themselves.
@272 BiDanFan: Thanks. I will need all the help I can get. I have an appointment next week with someone locally who can hopefully turn my fincial situation around for the better. Meantime, I'm collaborating with an established jazz musician on a Finale project working at home, and seeking additional employment as a TA in the Music Department. I don't have a MMA, or teaching certification, but I don't see why I couldn't be an aide or librarian's assistant with my BA of Music. Exploring my options........stay tuned.
Late @287: "I would have thought that that kind of uncertainty about your identity would be stressful and less preferable to, say, being handed your femininity at puberty." I can confirm that it is indeed stressful to expect to be handed your femininity at puberty, but instead to have to watch it happening to all your peers while you somehow missed the memo. Oh sure, I got my period. Whoopie-doo. Does anyone actually look forward to that unpleasant rite of passage? Did I look any less like a child after I had to deal with monthly blood in my underpants? No, the true mark of blossoming womanhood was membership in the tits club and its attendant privilege, sexual attractiveness.
Venn @284: The obvious counterpart is effeminate, but that word already exists and is pronounced "effemin-it" rather than "effemin-ate" and refers to men who are feminine, not women who have had their femininity removed. Defeminate? Would efeminate simply look misspelled?
@284: Mr. Ven, my comment @273 was in response to seandr @232. I myself offer no suggestions of how to restore one's masculinity once it has been eviscerated. I just wondered if according to seandr, all infidelities are emasculating, and if so, should they all be met with the choice of "fuck other people in return" or "DTMFA."
@275 vennominon: Heaven help me--I just had a rather delightfully wicked TPiR scenario: We're back in the 1970's; the lecherous Bob Barker is hosting TPiR, and Johnny Olsen calls out for [actor / comedian Jamie Foxx, in his recurring In Living Color role as Wanda]..."Come on DOWN! You're the next contestant on The Price is Right!" Bob turns oatmeal pale, while a wrongfully fired Holly quips, "Kiss THAT, Bob!"
Wanda could have rocked his world.
BiDanFan, I wish there were some way to let your former self know that you probably were very much a woman, and also very sexy, in the eyes of some of your peers. Womanhood and sexiness come in a bunch of different styles (praise be to God). But I don't need to tell you that.
@292, re @275, vennominon: Can't you just see Wanda informing Bob that 'You can't get away, 'cause I GOT you.'--and grabbing him right back? That would have been some Showcase Showdown.
Please forgive me, venn, Dan, and everybody. After some really bad news in my life about personal finances, employment status, and what my taxes for 2015 are projected to look like, I desperately needed a good laugh.
@nocutename:
Masculinity isn't all or none, and it's a complex biological/cultural construct, so I can only offer my interpretations and opinions. (I think @LateBloomer captures the dynamic quite well above.)
When a man is cuckholded against his will, his masculinity inherently takes a big hit, socially and within the context of the relationship. The implication (usually accurate) is that he was in some fundamental sense not man enough for his wife. Maybe he was bad in bed, or a generally shitty husband, or maybe she holds the power in the relationship and knows she can push him around.
Depending on the particulars of the affair, yes, it may be possible for the couple to restore his masculinity in the context of their relationship. If the wife generally appreciates her husband as a man, and her remorse is genuine, and the husband's judgment isn't overwhelmed by his fear of losing her, then he can choose to forgive her without trading in his manhood card.
But if during the course of the affair the wife explicitly or implicitly (through her behavior) insults her husband's manhood, especially relative to the lover's, things get way more difficult in my opinion. Some examples: wife tells her husband her lover made her come harder than he ever did, or she puts him in his place by having an affair with his boss, or she invites her cuckholded husband to hang out with her and her secret lover, leaving him as both third wheel and second fiddle in the triad. I just don't see how you can collaboratively restore your manhood with a woman who has such little regard for it. At that point, I think a guy's gotta take his mojo out of her hands and initiate recovery himself with other women and/or by ending his participation in the relationship.
Of course, masculinity is a tough game, it's not for everyone, and participation is optional. Plenty of men would trade in their balls to stick it out with a woman who has emasculated them, and there are plenty of women who prefer husbands without pesky masculine egos to care for. Totally valid choice.
CMD@286 Oh, yes! Very proper, very polite. Poor guy, he can't quite figure out what to do with his hands. keeps reverting to the "John Cleese fists on his hips" pose. And, even though she talks about "making a mess all over her stockings and shoes", I have to think she'll have him come into a nice lace handkerchief. StillThinking, I advise you to work on your British accent.
I think our cucks wife would have been ok if when he came to visit she just said I think I have found the guy I want to do our fantasy with and had then invited him in or had had her husband sit and watch them together. I agree with all who said it was the delay that made it questionable. The saying I have heard is "It isnt cheating if my husband watches"
Used to be that men felt emasculated if their wives went out to work. Shifting goalposts, this condition.
Grizelda, maybe I'll swap you your artic storm for my heat wave.
@301 LavaGirl: Oh yeah--it's summer where you are. At least you've got the beaches there.
Australia's got, what?--tiger sharks, mud sharks, bull sharks AND Great Whites? Yikes! And from what I hear pretty mean jellyfish, spiders, and crocs, too. But you know what to look for.
I dunno--you might hate the nasty, ripping below freezing Arctic winds we've been getting in November. The mountain pass highway is officially closed for winter; avalanche risk is too high.
Hopefully we don't have a bad winter of slides and flooding.
True, Grizelda. You forgot the snakes.
The crocodiles and pretty mean jelly fish are both still just up north, as the weather changes they will perhaps move down here.
Below freezing winds, I'd need a lot more warm clothes to handle that.
@303 LavaGirl: Snakes, too?! Eeee! I forgot all about them. Are the snakes as poisonous as the spiders? Hope your heat wave doesn't get too unbearable. Cold drinks out on your verandah? Hit the pool?
>> I'm sorry that men in my culture can feel threatened in some special way when they fail to behave well enough. I'm sorry that women have put up with men feeling extra special because they were both men and good people. At least trans men can presumably gain manhood rights, so there is a way for cis women to compete.
CMDwannabe @280
>> Not so fast. It’s a false assumption that trans people automatically fit in with their newly reassigned/declared gender and all that it entails. >>
Am I misunderstanding, Philophile, or are you suggesting that cis women can become trans men? And are you agreeing with that suggestion, CMDwannabe?
People AFAB (assigned female at birth) often come out as trans men. But a cis woman stays a cis woman her whole life, generally speaking.
You know Donny, you don't need to say bears, as Koala means bear. Aren't they cute ?
The snakes G, several of the worlds most poisonous. I worry about them
the most, lurking anywhere.
Mr. P has been kind and warm, and we communicate well about our changing desires. What we see in CUCKS's letter is just a slice in time, from a hard week in their lives. I've had hard weeks like the one CUCKS describes, with fighting and talking and sex all mixed up, and no sure path through to the other side. I'm glad Mr. P and I got through okay; and I wish the best for the LW and his wife, however it turns out for them.
*****
In other news, I've been hearing quite a few live streams lately with between 4-10 participants usually drawn mainly from a group of about 12-15 people, mostly male and mostly straight, featuring a fairly high content of the F-word. I'm a little surprised I can hear it tossed around so much (or perhaps dropped like water balloons) without just leaving, but I've been reflecting on the differences in context depending on the orientation of the speaker, whether it's said to a second party or about a third, the orientation of the object, and the orientation of the hearer. One thing that has solidified about the way I've always declined to take to Mr Savage's attempts at reclamation is how the widespread appearance of F-bombs gives cover to those for whom it isn't what I'll call Ironic Homophobia. Almost everyone who could be considered to belong to the core group is at the very least gay-accepting, and probably more than half gay-positive when they're being serious. One of them, though, is definitely at least solidly anti-gay, having written clearly anti-gay articles/posts of the "I'm one of the Reasonable Ones" flavouring. But in these streams, this person, who is less disposed than most of the others to F-bomb dropping, comes across as rather moderate. I'm still piecing together this particular jigsaw, but I'm glad finally to be able to put some form on my long-running objection to widespread F-bombing.
My guess is he got into a bit of a pickle,
a small backstage affair perhaps.
Eudaemonic has his own strengths and weaknesses, like the rest of us. I don't think he's a monster or bad person or whatever. But no use pretending that losing control and attacking people, instead of ideas, is anything but weakness. Appealing to force instead of reason to get your way happens only when reason fails to convince. And you'll meet people who will attack right back or call a higher authority (useless mods, like increasingly useless cops), as well as those who simply ignore and reject you. I hope he realizes that bold and italics and name calling and character assassination is a sign that he's losing, not winning, and continues to post when he can refrain from losing. I've assumed he was an INTJ with PTSD working through his issues here. And I'd like to think he acts more fully like a winner over time, that this thread is more of an exception these days.
I agree---PLINKO or Punch-a-Bunch would be my preferred game options, with hopes of landing $1.00 on the Showcase Showdown wheel for the bonus cash. I hope your lady friend can sell the ATV if it becomes a financial hassle to keep.
I haven't seen TPiR in a long time, obviously. I would have remembered a male model. Janice Pennington, Holly Holstrom, and Dyan Parkinson stick out in my memory of TPiR models from long past when Bob Barker was the host and Johnny Olsen the announcer to "Come on DOWN!". Thanks for the trip down memory lane, venn.
For me, some days are easier than others.
That's my choice. The fourth one.
Life has sudden;y taken a harsh economic turn downward for me, and I'm trying to deal with it the best I can.
Granted, there were people here who didn’t like Party Line since inception, which I’m solely responsible to.
Yet I felt there was some momentum building, and the consensus seemed to be one that advocates moving slowly and develope ideas together.
Then you started throwing people around and on top of each other, an act that gave us a fairly poor publicity as some on the sidelines started booing. We also lost BDF and maybe the two others besides us who ever contributed to the party.
Later when even I gave up you came up with the 12-hour rule.
Also, including yourself in the storyline in a sexual context does not make it ok for you to include other non-consenting commenters in similar situations.
But then again, I’m the one responsible to get all this rolling.
So in the hope of restoring civility I’ll do my part as I hereby declare that the party, at least the copyrighted one I started, is over.
Lets call it “a learning experience” and continue happily or not with our lives.
Meantime, I have my music and love bug to keep me going, so it's getting there.
I don't think that Eud is a troll.... i just think he sees things in very black and white terms... and i personally live in the middle of a sea of gray... so will never agree with his points without many exclusions. I once asked Eud why he seemed to always shout "listen to me" out of one side of his mouth and "you're too stupid to understand me" out of the other.... and did he not see that as self-defeating behavior.... but alas... that did not turn into a long conversation about introspection. hee haw! (thats from my jackass)
... and not to pick on you CMD... but i also thought the Party Line was tedious. Good effort though! ;)
Telling us, we are the only sex whose feelings matter, etc. etc. over and over is like a form of brainwashing.
Maybe his bullshit concurs with some other men's feelings about women, that's why his insidious form of abusing females has been allowed to continue for so long.
In my experience of the people on this thread, most everyone seems very clear that we are all adults, trying to work thru the knots of life.
The trans*/cis men say their bit. The trans*/cis women say theirs, about all these questions people ask.
And when issues arise between the genders, across the genders, people are passionate with their viewpoints, and cross pollinate ideas.
So no. No to Mr E's constant attempt to work thru a deep and personal issue,( that I feel he needs professional help with to sort) with such
angry and misplaced reasoning.
I was a little perplexed by BAD's panic-tinged gloom and doom. Everyone's milage varies, but for the record, I started dating again at the age of 48, after 17 years off the dating market and as the single parent of a demanding school-aged child. Statistically, my chances of finding a good match were pretty low, considering my gender, age, and life circumstances.
I used Lovelab for 6 months, and Match concurrently for the 6th month. I went on about one date with a new person per month, and went on three dates with one of those people. About the time I was ready to give up and take down my profiles, I met my current SO. To satisfy enquiring minds, we did not fuck on the first date, nor the second, nor even the third. We are still together nearly two years later.
So chill out, BAD.
Probably because he identifies as masculine. It's how I'd feel if I were in his shoes. It's a sickening feeling. Made the letter difficult to read, especially the mindfuck of the visit with his wife and her boyfriend where she left him out of the loop.
If he's interested in preserving his masculinity, he needs to start fucking other girls, or he needs to walk away from this woman. Or both.
P.S. I think Eud's ranting here is ultimately just an expression of pain at the manner in which this guy was fucked over by his wife.
And I ask the same question as Philo. What is this emasculation, can a man be stripped of his masculinity by others? Is there a similar word for women when a man deceives her, and what is the word.
De feminization, is that it.
Re Fucking over
Maybe this guy was fucked over by his wife. If you make the most negative assumptions about her, that she's the only one sleeping around, that she's been sabotaging his DADT opportunities when she's in town, and discouraged him from dating when she's out of town... then she fucked him over.
However if you you make the equally valid assumptions that he's had his own fun with DADT, that she's generously looked the other way about lipstick stains or late nights or other DADT problem areas, then it wouldn't be fucking him over, more like she's pushing back against some hypocrisy in the relationship, refusing to be vetoed this time.
Perhaps it was difficult for you to read because it was difficult to empathize with a man who enjoyed his wife's extramarital adventures. That is one clear part of the letter, imo, with the code, and the big load.
Still Thinking, I consider you a regular. It's a shame when you feel discouraged from posting because of hostility here.
LavaGirl, Philophile, it is weird for you to judge that men shouldn't feel emasculated by others or that feeling emasculated is a response that you don't think carries as much weight as being dehumanized. I'm a woman and I can understand how unnerving or upsetting it would be to feel emasculated if I were a man. I don't think it's an act of misogyny for a man to feel his core identity is realized in his manliness. LavaGirl, you have often championed what sounds like gender essentialism, so I guess I shouldn't be particularly surprised that you think that people;s sense of gender or self or worth can be affected by what others do to them or think of them or what they think others think of them. But I think whether good or bad, a lot of our sense of self-identity, or self-worth, is tied to how other people perceive us or our perception of how other people perceive us. It's all very well to say we shouldn't let that happen or we should rise above it, but for practical purposes, it's as useful as people telling BAD that she she should just get over her feelings. It doesn't generally work that way.
For what it's worth, I'm pretty sure that men can feel both dehumanized and emasculated--the two are not mutually exclusive, and I can easily see not only why feeling emasculated would be an uncomfortable, or even devastating feeling, but also why CUCK would feel that way in the circumstances.
Further enlightening handy tips:
Get a narrow pillow of some sort or fold one, so that he can sit on it while his balls are slightly pushed up, and place a small vibrator in there for balls sensation.
This allows you to have both hands and mouth to play with his penis. If your nails are painted it may add a visual added value to some.
As someone who likes gentle teasing I’d recommend licking and gentle sucking of the head while the fingers are dancing up and down. This set up, minus the mouth, also works well for my solo sessions and often results in a very nice outcome.
Another aspect of hand job goes with lingerie, which is a huge turn on for me. Place a satin slip or nightie of some sort on his penis and move your hand back and forth. Feel the sensation for both of you. You can go all the way with it and have him come right there. Just don’t use any silk garments as cum stains, even the smallest pre cum ones, are impossible to wash.
Feel free to ask/comment/whatever.
Emasculation is the only word that operates this way. There is no equivalent for a woman.
Circumcision, I can understand that being referred to as a form of emasculation. Removing part of a man's genitals. Other than that, I think that word is meaningless and encourages big ego responses in men.
Lipstick stains are a powerful passive-aggressive way to "tell".
Or a sign that someone isn't used to deception, or doesn't obsess about their appearance. I agree that smell is more often overlooked than visual signs. In any case, the mature response is to ask your partner to change or shower or brush their teeth, direct them to the proper way to remedy their indiscretion, instead of just venting angry jealousy.
NoCute - I'm a woman and I can understand how unnerving or upsetting it would be to feel emasculated if I were a man.
Ok, it looks like you have a lot of empathy for how men's sense of masculinity can be taken away with bad treatment. But can you think of a way you would feel less feminine when being treated badly? I have only seen the opposite; a trans woman feeling like she could pass better, "more feminine", the first time she was interrupted by a man, "treated badly". So from my perspective, these stories imply that self worth is a property of manhood, and a property that negates femininity. I both disagree and find the concept to be harmful to women (misogynist). Because I think that expecting to be treated well is a strength, as long as you're not relying on others. FWIW, my sense of femininity is tied to my body and my comfort in my own skin. How other people treat me has little to do with my femininity. For me, it's more about my hormones and cycle and genitals, and the gendered social norms I adopt and those I reject. If I have reason to believe that I am treated badly because I am a woman, it doesn't make me feel less feminine, instead I feel bad about being born female. Thus I think it hurts me as a person, it does not take away from my femininity. When being treated well is part of being a man, it implies that women are not required to be treated well. Perhaps I should just say that I disagree that men and women should be treated differently, so I mostly disagree that femininity or masculinity can be "taken" with any particular treatment, except by/from bigots. I say mostly because I can see a case for lopping off genitals being emasculating or efeminizing.
I can easily see not only why feeling emasculated would be an uncomfortable, or even devastating feeling, but also why CUCK would feel that way in the circumstances.
Then please explain, as I've tried to outline why I think it indicates misogyny.
women have hearts and minds as well. It just adds that extra, important dimension, when a man can label his pain, his human pain, as emasculation.
If he got onto the show thru playing with the male producer, then his incompetence in the job maybe did him in.
I wish I could jump my mind into all your references, I like the map you draw anyway.
Lots of people express pain by going on the attack, including you on a number of occasions. Rage is an easy and in some cases habituated outlet. Not everyone has the awareness or ability to pursue the more productive strategies of dealing with pain exhibited by people like @EricaP.
The pain->rage trigger may even serve an adaptive function in some contexts (e.g., combat, abusive situations, a public school playground in the 70s & 80s).
But I'd say it's decidedly maladaptive here in the SLOG comments.
I think the word emasculate, also takes responsibility off the person for their own pain.
" I was emasculated" full stop. It was done to me.
Feelings have to be owned before we can deal with them. Yes, a loved one has hurt our feelings, then what? The process has to keep moving on or one is stuck way back at the first heart ache by deceit.
Just enough of that scary stuff. I had a husband who for thirty yrs played that game on me. That control the environment thru abusive rage. He interspersed it enough with loving behaviour, that I didn't fully notice how abused I was. Until I got away from him.
It is emotional paradise to have no one behaving like that in my life. I'd just prefer Mr E didn't do that behaviour here. Only my opinion.
Like you, when comments get hostile, I take a break from the comment thread and try again later.
@237 nocutename: I'm guessing Hunter's Dbird term has something to do with yelling DTMFA ("Dump the motherfucker already!", as Dan might phrase it).
@243 seandr: Wow---you just scored a direct bullseye in describing my pain and past hurts [The pain->rage trigger may even serve an adaptive function in some contexts (e.g., combat, abusive situations, a public school playground in the 70s & 80s)]. But I agree--for me, PTSD / grief counseling is infinitely more productive and suitable than viciously blasting off on a comment thread. Thank you, seandr, Dan, and everyone, for bearing with all the times that I have done exactly that on SLOG.
I don't know about you, but one of my favorite things about sex when sex is really good, is the way I experience feeling reduced to my most female and feminine essence. I feel quintessentially feminine--and I love that feeling, which I only attain through sex--not because I feel disempowered, or weak, or fragile, or in any way less than. Rather, I experience my essential femininity in an associatedly gender-neutral value system: it isn't better than being masculine or worse than being masculine, but it's profoundly distinct from feeling masculine, and even very distinct from how I generally feel in a non-sexual situation, in which I don't always have a sense of feeling so very gendered at all. This feeling feminine doesn't feel "gendered" at all, as a matter of fact, because it's not so much performative in nature, nor cultural, nor somehow learned. It isn't behavior; it's essence. When I feel feminine, which I do through good sex, I feel distilled to my core essence--an essentially feminine thing.
I don't think I'm explaining this well, but it's the best I can do. At some point, like Virginia Woolf said, Words Fail.
Anyway, that feeling of feminine-essence, associated with sex, is a key aspect of my sense of self, as anything associated with my sexuality and sexual identity contributes hugely to my sense of core self and self identity. If that feeling were challenged, as I think it could very well be, though a kind of sex or sex-related experience that went against my sense of self-sexual identity, I could see feeling profoundly adrift, identity-wise. That feeling of being cut loose from an established and perhaps cherished part of that self-definition would indeed be unnerving.
I think we need to differentiate between learned behaviors and responses and those which might be reinforced by culture and learned behavior--sure--but which are rooted in something reptile-brain-deep, and which it it might not only be useless to try to change, but which it might be somewhat desirable for people to retain.
I'm all for taking good hard looks at how we follow some old and undesirable cultural scripts, of trying to change even entrenched behaviors if they're at odds with our conscious value systems. That's what I, as a feminist, think we should all do all the time. But I'm also going to cut myself and others some slack for the ways in which culture taps into what I think are some pretty deeply-wired roles and responses. It's why I don't feel guilty for my submissive sexuality, but why I wouldn't want to be with someone who wanted me to be submissive outside a sexual context, and why I need the person I'm with to recognize my submission as a gift to him and not something just anyone gets from me under any circumstances. It's why I don't waste time worrying that I have to turn in my feminist card because I like to be humiliated during sex. It allows me to separate the sexual behavior of my partner from his non-sexual behavior so I don't either inadvertently date a misogynist or think my non-misogynist partner is anti-feminist.
It seems to me that some part of CUCK's sense of self is contributed to by his sexual self-identity; that sexual self-identity was challenged by a sexual pattern that CUCK doesn't like or want to be associated with. This sexual self-identity may be rooted in old, deep misogynism, its true, but that misogyny isn't necessarily part of CUCK's conscious belief or value system just because it exists in his reptile brain. I think trying to challenge that core part of his sense of self identity--his essential masculinity is pointless: impossible to change and unnecessary to be changed for him to still be a feminist.
The social red flags of my past ugliness are highly visible, and I'm dealing with emotional triggers. At least I know what situations are best (for me, anyway) to avoid, and supportive networks to contact. I'm fortunate that there are good people here within my local community (PTSD / grief counseling, veteran's center).
Work in progress. Love and hugs back to you.
A recent case in point: my seeking membership at a nearby VFW in an attempt to expand my social activity last week over Veteran's Day and afterward proved to be a BIG mistake. Not a good environment for me there. Blatant hostility towards unmarried, childless female veterans over 40 who don't look old and gray. Male chauvinists, and jealous wives and /or girlfriends of veterans & active service members abound. I'll pass. At least there's a wonderful PTSD / grief counselor in my age group at the vet's center who is encouraging and with whom I have another appointment again soon.
Love, big hugs and VW beeps right back. Your turn.
Perhaps I feel like a more successful woman, the better I understand my sexual response, and the better I can negotiate good sex with others. I'm definitely very happy when a cock plays nice with my pussy.. like I'm happy about how I'm shaped.. But I think I feel feminine all the time, the collection of traits that I think would change if my chromosomes had been XY. Sex and reproduction is a big part of it, but my femininity is everywhere I interact with other people. It's social just as much as sexual, neurological just as much as genital, for me. I don't think this confers or denies me any different rights from anyone else, just a different biological reality. I'm not sure where our differences are exactly. Yes sometimes words fail but it's nice to try.
Couple disagreements. I don't think you can differentiate which desires are environmentally learned and how, from those caused by genetic expression. You can guess at which experiences formed your desires, or why it would make sense for certain desires to be hard coded, but can't prove that some specific desire formed through experience/Pavlovian learning or genetic expression rewiring your brain. Further I don't think nature (biology) is stronger than nurture (experience). If one's sense of self preservation can be overwhelmed by experience, anything can, imo. And people do commit suicide. And develop successful aversions to reproduction, the other super strong biological imperative. It's only an important question if you'd like to change your desires, which can happen if they become problematic to satisfy, and I'm more of a fan of cognitive behavioral therapy than psychotherapy in that case anyway. I have no moral/ethical problems with feelings, only behavior, and only such behavior it's reasonable to consider harmful to oneself/others. Also I don't think male identity is misogynistic unless it is tied to some form of behavioral hypocrisy/unequal rights. Like men deserve fidelity (and women don't). Or women deserve to be materially provided for (and men don't). Or women deserve to raise their kids (and men don't)... there's female entitlement, too.
I see women humiliated by partners who cheat on them, but I don't get the same sense of their femininity being threatened. They are still women. But men whose partners cheat on them are less of a man somehow. I suspect that's what CUCK is referring to. I don't see it as misognynist, I see it rooted in a long tradition of manhood being something you earn and therefore can lose again if your performance falls below a certain standard.
@257 LateBloomer & @258 nocutename: Me three----I sensed the exact same thing, too, but like nocutename aptly observed, I didn't feel I had the credibility to point this out as I'm also viewing from yet another woman's standpoint.
Dan and guys? What's your take on this?
If a woman cheats on a man it may humiliate him, I don't understand how it effects his masculinity.
I see the odious nature of men who claim emasculation, in the readiness of many men upon finding out their women have cheated on them to feel justified in hitting said women.
CMD - he's emphatically not a toy boy, but the lingerie is worth a try, I think.
Nocute @ 258
Aunt Zelda @ 259
For good or bad a pretty accurate description as my opinion.
Lava @ 260
“These some of the same men who beat up on trans* women and gay men because they don't adhere to this long tradition of manhood, Late?”
Yes, but not only. More men then women reject transwomen or gay men because they feel those people have willingly gave up their men’s entitlements, therefore unworthy. They may also feel threatened because of it.
Others may be terrified that those individuals may be attracted to them. It’s even worse and can get violent if they themselves are attracted to any of those people and are totally freaked out as a result.
Keep us posted. And no silk.
Everyone please, please, wish me luck on finding sustainable employment (I understand the local community college needs help in the music dept, so I'm checking that out, too). Alcoa is laying off 400 employees, so the job market is only going to get worse where I live. And we're supposed to get another wretched Arctic storm over the next few days--yuck!
@265 CMDwannabe: Thanks. It's good to know we're on a similar page---I so often feel I don't understand men at all.
I don't think what I just said is wholly true or untrue, but that there is some truth to it in many cases.
Other than that, I think what you said is right on, and like you, not endorsing any part of the whole situation, just observing.
This makes me a sad panda in two ways. For women, and for men. I'm sorry that men in my culture can feel threatened in some special way when they fail to behave well enough. I'm sorry that women have put up with men feeling extra special because they were both men and good people. At least trans men can presumably gain manhood rights, so there is a way for cis women to compete.
A good man and a good woman don't have separate requirements, to me. Self sufficient (don't harm yourself) and respectful (don't harm others) pretty much sums up my ethical priorities. And self aware enough to grow.
Expecting anyone else to agree that you've earned extra rights by being a man and a good person is going to disappoint. Some boys club types will agree it should happen. But men can't actually earn fidelity. With cute face or cash or talented tongue. People give their fidelity to whomever they want.
But people will fill holes of insecurity by assuming they are better than others by nature, no matter what works better in reality. Boo. I don't like when people feel bad about themselves and overly defensive, they can easily turn into abusive assholes. What you need to do should be fine if it's not hurting anyone.
With this letter, she agreed to a certain kind of fidelity, and couldn't keep her agreement. Her bad, not his faulty manhood (and why bother with this ridiculous train of thought again?). Although if he stopped disclosing to her, he should understand why she may have thought it fair to do the same, even if she wasn't self aware enough to address it with him beforehand. (If he feels that fidelity is owed, he may have trouble seeing this point.) And at the opposite extreme, if he has been monogamous to her, giving her great latitude and she has grabbed more, let her swing at the end of that rope until she remembers why it's important to respect others.
And I also do want to thank everyone else here for, well, being humans instead of trolls. I've learned a lot from this board, possibly even more than I've learned from Dan's LWs themselves. We may disagree -- we may sometimes vociferously disagree -- but we speak to each other civilly.
Now catching up on the rest of the thread as it seems my least favourite troll has been told where to go, and has gone. Hurrah!
Erica @186: "The pain he's in"? I made the mistake, the first time I experienced Eud going off on one of his "woman has bent the rules, she's a rapist" rants of giving him the benefit of presuming his attitude was based on his own experience of being cheated on. Not only did he deny this, but he lashed out at me for even suggesting it. So fuck his supposed pain. He hasn't got any, only his victims do.
Late @193: The bit you missed was that he finds the idea of his wife having sex with other men kinda hot. So long as she tells him about it. So allowing her some sexual freedom is not a complete act of altruism on his part.
CMD @221: Sorry for leaving the party early! I thought the first Party Line sub-thread was fun as it involved some of us here, but it arose organically, it wasn't some kind of premeditated format like the subsequent ones were. And yes, very off-topic and off-putting to some.
Sean @232: Unless he is lying (and we know how he feels about "liars"), he hasn't got a past cheating trauma as an excuse for his abhorrent and misogynist attitude. I could be more forgiving if he had.
Lava @0: There isn't a female-equivalent word to "emasculated." Which is a shame. Because it's how I feel when I go bra shopping or see images where a woman is defined by the size of her cleavage. It's not only a humiliation, it's an attack on your gender identity. Real men this... real women that. And it is telling that there isn't a female version, because in most cases, being "less feminine" or "less womanly" is not seen as something humiliating. "You're not like other girls" is usually considered a compliment.
Griz @267: Good luck!
"Probably because he identifies as masculine. It's how I'd feel if I were in his shoes. It's a sickening feeling. Made the letter difficult to read, especially the mindfuck of the visit with his wife and her boyfriend where she left him out of the loop.
If he's interested in preserving his masculinity, he needs to start fucking other girls, or he needs to walk away from this woman. Or both."
I know you often have your tongue in your cheek, but this sounded sincere to me, so I'm going on that assumption. Do you really think that the only way a man in this situation--a wronged husband who's been cheated on--can preserve his masculinity is by either fucking other women or leaving his marriage? Did you mean that in only this case, or is that your standard response to all cases of infidelity wherein the wife is the one who cheats? In a hypothetical more straightforward case of infidelity, would you consider that the man had only those two courses of action if he wanted to regain his masculinity--if indeed you think that any act of infidelity not mutually agreed upon in advance by both man and woman has an emasculating effect? What happens if a wife cheats, gets caught or confesses, exhibits great remorse, and the two talk it through, come to a renewed closeness ,and re-establish monogamy? Under that scenario, do you still see the husband as somehow emasculated? And if so, is the only cure for emasculation to "fuck other girls, or . . . walk away from" the woman who cheated?
I think he left on his own. He realized he’d lost it and left to cool down. I suspect he hasn’t seen any of the discussion.
Ms Grizelda - I think because Janice Pennington (who, I think I remember hearing, appeared in Playboy) and Dian Parkinson (a former Miss USA? and, I'm almost certain, a confirmed Barker boinker) were so similar, Holly stood out even more than Anitra Ford (who left before the models had an increased presence in the programme) had done before her, because her hair was shorter as well as darker.
Perhaps we should start a campaign to get Mx Wanna a TPiR gig.
I suspect the humiliation and public derision of the cuckold is an atavism, to do with the massive reproductive failure represented by letting a cuckoo lay an egg in your nest and raising another man’s child for him.
Hmmm.
I have lived long enough to have personally known 3 couples into the whole "hotwife-cuckold-open-relation ship" experimenting. AFAIK two of the couples are still together.
IMHO The LW seems to object to getting what he actually wants IN TOO LARGE A PORTION. It almost seems, (to use a beach analogy) that he wishes his hot wife to play in front of him 100% of the time at the water's edge, whereas she has taken it into the deeper waters where he cannot see what is happening beneath the waves and is out of his ken.
He, seemingly is not so upset that his wife is trysting, as he is that he is not right there to say where the limits are. My take is that CUCK wants Dan to side with him on shaming his hotwife and sort of bring her back into the shallows.
It is a dicey game and made for real adults who can cope with changing situations, and communitcate:...I say, be careful what you wish for!
Re mr E
The cobra avatar told me a lot the first time I saw it. The personal insults do not belong here amongst we few Dan fans. Disagreement is fine.
“At least trans men can presumably gain manhood rights, so there is a way for cis women to compete.”
Not so fast. It’s a false assumption that trans people automatically fit in with their newly reassigned/declared gender and all that it entails.
Trans men, like trans women, have to go through a lot of stuff- personal, family, social acceptance, etc.- and assuming they will be fully accepted as men is often unattainable.
I suspect you meant no harm, just an example leading to the rest of your post, but it still may be misleading.
Re: cheating and emasculation -- one of the ways in which society stereotypes "manliness" is that a "man" is studly and can always please his woman. If the woman cheats, then that's taken as evidence that her partner wasn't pleasing her, and therefore is "less of a man" than the man she cheated with. That's why there's an element of humiliation to cuckolds beyond that of female infidelity victims. Society does not expect women to be studs who always satisfy their man -- in fact, it's quite the opposite, with women more likely to be shamed for being too horny. Yay, gender stereotypes.
Here’s a link to a hands-only video that features a fairly close technique to what I was talking about.
Ignore the story line. Despite the “cfnm femdom” in the title it caters mostly for men, like the vast majority of pornography.
Just follow the lube-free movement.
And despite the female star looking strikingly similar to a former co-worker, this video is not likely to be tolerated by most employers.
http://www.xvideos.com/video2470323/sexy…
Ms Cute@273 - I think the cure depends on which gender at the moment is perceived to hold the advantage in the divorce court. More seriously, your proposed cure doesn't restrict the requisite agency to the patient. If that were a requirement, what would you propose?
In my experience, I've tried to treat people who I was aware were trans, as if they have an interest in their new gender's issues. Like I try to assume that trans women care about abortion access and the glass ceiling. But I also keep in mind that they probably still care about prostate cancer screening too. I think that's pretty much how I consciously treat the genders differently; acknowledging typical gendered interests.
Philo, I think that culture can override biological hankerings, but for awhile, not forever. I think with the passage of time one's basic desires start to clamor for more attention the longer they're ignored. So if there are inherent differences between men and women (and my personal view is that there are) then you can idealistically strong-arm them into a relationship mould where everything is even-steven, but it's going to take great effort to keep them that way long term. Also, your requirements are very general, and the devil is in the interpretations: of course you should not harm others or yourself, but who decides what is "respectful" and what is "harm"? And what if holding back for the sake of my partner harms me, or vice versa--how far do we let that go? To illustrate how harm can mean different things to different people: I can tease my son and he think it's hilarious and dishes it back; I tease my daughter and she is devastated. Yet I've treated them both the same. I don't think absolute symmetry is possible or even desireable in a mixed-gender relationship.
BDF, I did note that CUCK is turned on by his wife's adventures, but obviously only to a certain extent. Beyond that he feels betrayed and deceived (and his manhood threatened). I thought sb53's analogy @273 was apt. And having been in a similar situation myself, I found that I could be turned on by the thought of Mrs. B being a hotwife while simultaneously feeling anxious and jealous. CUCK seems to be in the same boat. No, it's not 100% altruistic, but in my case I had to learn how to be turned on in order to mitigate the anxiety--but the anxiety remained. It was a weird tension, but the price I paid for having the freedom to meet other women, so still basically selfish in motivation. And riffing on what I was just floundering about trying to explain to Philo, the perfectly fair, tit-for-tat arrangement Mrs. B and I came up with actually wasn't fair--it didn't address the fact that we had different needs when it comes to extra-marital affairs, something neither of us knew until experience taught us otherwise (you listening, CUCK?).
Most trans people are not 100% passable, nor do they want to go through all the procedures.
This is what makes this Caitlyn Jenner circus so disturbing. More people now assume that a born-male who wears a dress on occasion is secretly saving money for "the operation," and will only be accepted as a woman if "going all the way."
I'm pretty passable, up to my neck. My nose is likely to disclose me, but is not going to be modified any time soon.
Trans men have similar issues stemming from their perspectives, I'll let them speak for themselves.
Venn @284: The obvious counterpart is effeminate, but that word already exists and is pronounced "effemin-it" rather than "effemin-ate" and refers to men who are feminine, not women who have had their femininity removed. Defeminate? Would efeminate simply look misspelled?
Wanda could have rocked his world.
On another matter, Alsion, would you be able to shoot me a line at cmct123 at gmail fullstop com? Nothing terribly important, just a question I have.
Masculinity isn't all or none, and it's a complex biological/cultural construct, so I can only offer my interpretations and opinions. (I think @LateBloomer captures the dynamic quite well above.)
When a man is cuckholded against his will, his masculinity inherently takes a big hit, socially and within the context of the relationship. The implication (usually accurate) is that he was in some fundamental sense not man enough for his wife. Maybe he was bad in bed, or a generally shitty husband, or maybe she holds the power in the relationship and knows she can push him around.
Depending on the particulars of the affair, yes, it may be possible for the couple to restore his masculinity in the context of their relationship. If the wife generally appreciates her husband as a man, and her remorse is genuine, and the husband's judgment isn't overwhelmed by his fear of losing her, then he can choose to forgive her without trading in his manhood card.
But if during the course of the affair the wife explicitly or implicitly (through her behavior) insults her husband's manhood, especially relative to the lover's, things get way more difficult in my opinion. Some examples: wife tells her husband her lover made her come harder than he ever did, or she puts him in his place by having an affair with his boss, or she invites her cuckholded husband to hang out with her and her secret lover, leaving him as both third wheel and second fiddle in the triad. I just don't see how you can collaboratively restore your manhood with a woman who has such little regard for it. At that point, I think a guy's gotta take his mojo out of her hands and initiate recovery himself with other women and/or by ending his participation in the relationship.
Of course, masculinity is a tough game, it's not for everyone, and participation is optional. Plenty of men would trade in their balls to stick it out with a woman who has emasculated them, and there are plenty of women who prefer husbands without pesky masculine egos to care for. Totally valid choice.
Grizelda, maybe I'll swap you your artic storm for my heat wave.
Australia's got, what?--tiger sharks, mud sharks, bull sharks AND Great Whites? Yikes! And from what I hear pretty mean jellyfish, spiders, and crocs, too. But you know what to look for.
I dunno--you might hate the nasty, ripping below freezing Arctic winds we've been getting in November. The mountain pass highway is officially closed for winter; avalanche risk is too high.
Hopefully we don't have a bad winter of slides and flooding.
The crocodiles and pretty mean jelly fish are both still just up north, as the weather changes they will perhaps move down here.
Below freezing winds, I'd need a lot more warm clothes to handle that.
>> I'm sorry that men in my culture can feel threatened in some special way when they fail to behave well enough. I'm sorry that women have put up with men feeling extra special because they were both men and good people. At least trans men can presumably gain manhood rights, so there is a way for cis women to compete.
CMDwannabe @280
>> Not so fast. It’s a false assumption that trans people automatically fit in with their newly reassigned/declared gender and all that it entails. >>
Am I misunderstanding, Philophile, or are you suggesting that cis women can become trans men? And are you agreeing with that suggestion, CMDwannabe?
People AFAB (assigned female at birth) often come out as trans men. But a cis woman stays a cis woman her whole life, generally speaking.
The snakes G, several of the worlds most poisonous. I worry about them
the most, lurking anywhere.