I, Anonymous

1. J242 and Phantomburned … Dudes, you better talk to your lawyer. Based on #80 (the invitation), I think you are going to need a permit for this festival if you are charging admission. And a temporary liquor license.

   It would really be a downer for the police to bust up your party as an illegal party because you are selling alcohol without a license, you are charging mandatory admission, and are allowing non-invited guests (i.e., the public) to attend.

   Leave the commercial ventures to the professionals … just have a private party.

2. Posting this here as well as in the update comments:

   When I was in 5th grade I called a friend of mine by a racial slur while we were having a fight about something. Someone told the teacher, and I got into very very deep trouble. It was a humiliating and horrible experience, and I cried. A lot. It’s one of my worst memories, one I couldn’t think rationally about for around 10 years.

   You know what? It was also really good for me.

   Perhaps in 10 years the bride will look back and think, “well, this is one of my worst memories, but it was good for me. I would NEVER think of treating my guests this way now.”

   Okay, assuming that this can be a moment of epifany:
   If you are hosting a party–any party– that means that those you invite are the guests. This arrangement means, by definition, that you will be paying for all the costs of the party, whatever they may be. Your guests may repay your generosity by bringing you a nice gift, or by inviting you to a party they are paying for, but they never, ever help you pay for the party you are throwing. Any party. If there is any other arrangement, it is not one of host and guest.

   Also: if your professional photographer friends wish to photograph your wedding due to their undying love of you, they are perfectly capable of thinking it up all on their own and contacting you to let you know. Then it will be their idea, their choice, and their lovely gesture, instead of your awful entitled demand.

   Oh, and to both the bride and #159, no one with any manners requests presents from anyone other than Santa. Presents are freely given, or not. You seem to be confused by the concept of a wedding registry, which is there to let people know, IF they CHOOSE to get a present, what might be most appreciated.

   See, ’cause if a wedding guest chooses not to get a present for the couple, that reflects on the guest’s manners. But if a couple requests presents, thereby taking away the guest’s choice in the matter, it reflects on the manners of the couple.
   We can’t control the manners of others. Only our own.

   In this case, we can control whether we request presents (don’t), whether we encourage people other than those we have invited to come to our party (don’t), whether we slap those people with a $20 cover charge (don’t, but since we’re not inviting the uninvited it’s moot), whether we charge our guests for food and drink (don’t), whether we ask our friends to work for free (don’t), and whether we have a VIP area at our party (holy christ, please don’t).

   We cannot control, then, if our guests get us presents, or if they bring along a cast of thousands, but, you see, if our guests are rude, then we know what to do next time: leave them off the invitation list.

3. I also see you are having a big raffle at 11:30, presumably the old marketing trip to keep people around to make the vendors happy (do people have to be present to win their prize?). Sorry, you might need a raffle license if the “big prizes” are of any value.

   Or maybe you’ve got all the above covered … good luck! There’s a reason that private parties are essentially unregulated and that commercial shows are regulated. It has to do with something called the “social contract”.

   Thanks, BTW, for hours of amusement.

4. Without commenting (yet) on the tackiness/awesomeness of this couple’s wedding plans, I wanted to say something to all the people who have said that it’s ALWAYS tacky to mention gifts (or donations-for-gifts) to your guests, whether in the invitations or otherwise.

   Firstly to me, a non-American, this sounds so bizarre, because to the rest of world America is the culture where it’s considered totally acceptable and normal to set up a wedding registry FOR SPECIFIC, PRE-SELECTED GIFTS AT A SPECIFIC STORE. To most non-Americans this is mortifyingly disgusting and greedy. (Although it is starting to catch on in some other Western cultures. Ugh.)

   On the other hand, I really liked what my aunt & uncle did when they got married – with the invitation came a little card that said “Bride’s Name & Groom’s Name have made a list of presents they would really appreciate, please talk to Bride’s Name’s sister for ideas.” And then a contact number. Instead of listing things like “Le Creuset 28″ Green Dutch Oven” or “Kitchenaid Red Stand-Mixer”, it was stuff like “good quality feather doona”, “set of nice wine glasses”, and “hammock”. So they wouldn’t get a huge pile of stuff that they didn’t need, but the guests still picked out the things themselves, meaning the gifts had a personal touch, and there was no pre-fixed price tag on gifts. I just thought this was a really polite and lovely, but practical, way of letting guests know what the couple would actually appreciate.

5. OK, now to comment. When I was halfway through these comments I thought “man, I bet the bride has a blog. She’s either totally self-indulgent and blogs about how spiritually, ethically & socially superior she is, being a Burner and all, OR she is actually really interesting and her blog posts will shed light on this huge seething mess.” But, errr…. then I read her LttE. Maybe she was just really hopped up? Nah. If you know how to string 3 words together in the first place, no amount of drugs will make you that illiterate. The letter also answers all my questions about how someone could put so little thought into the wording of their own wedding invitation. Irrespective of whether she realises how tasteless the whole concept is, it was poor form and lazy to not make it clear that spouses of invitees would not have to pay.

   I am actually going to try to be fair to the couple and their motivations…. One of my initial thoughts about why this whole ‘event’ sounded like a self-indulgent exercise in forcing it down everyone’s throats that the B&G are so unconventional and openminded, was something said by a commenter in the last wedding-y I Anon. Someone said “The ceremony is for the couple, the reception is for their friends & family”. And nobody has brought up the fact that presumably this couple has FAMILY, not just 100+ friends who fortunately all are just as into this carnival idea as the B&G. Like they say, you can’t pick your family. It’s likely that not every family member would be as rapt about a 6-hour ‘freakshow’, nor would all of the friends, unless this couple only deign to make friends with people into the exact same scene as they are (which’d be pretty hateful in itself). But you know, whatever. Maybe they DO only mix with fellow Burners/would-be Burners, and maybe they figure if a family member isn’t into it they don’t deserve to be taken into consideration anyway. But I don’t know the family, so hey.

   Now to J242’s argument that this couple has been generous in the past, let people pass out on their couch, paid for huge parties, etc etc. The couple themselves may not see that as justification, but you do, so I’ll speak to you. Past generosity does not mean that it is now not rude to host a party at which your ‘guests’ are required to pay for their own food & drinks. It may be a reason why the couple cannot fulfill their “go big or go home” desires without relying on other people’s money for a large part of the celebration. It may be a reason that many of the ‘guests’ were not offended by the pay-your-way concept. But it does not actually JUSTIFY it.

   I also believe that, no matter how desperately you want your dream wedding, if you can’t afford to pay for it, and your close friends and/or family haven’t offered to cover what you can’t, it’s just crass to turn it into a commercial event by making people pay for the things that are meant to be free when you get invited to a private party. Yes, this even goes for when you believe your wedding to be some sort of social service for those who haven’t been to BM. It’s still your wedding. If you want dozens (or in this case seemingly hundreds) of people to congregate for the sake of celebrating YOUR unending devotion and commitment, then it’s a bit nasty to ask for their money for the event itself.

   BUT at the same time I can kind of understand that this couple really do just want to throw a massive festival-party for a gazillion people who may be friends & family or may just be casual acquaintances… Which just happens to be centred on their wedding. So in a way the pay-for-food thing is a little bit understandable. In the framework of a festival. But you know what, why not just organise a Burning Man-like thing and leave the wedding out of it? Because clearly, as one of the invitees pointed out in the comments, a good deal of those invited don’t seem to actually know the couple on anything but an extremely casual basis. That’s the point that I keep sticking on whenever I try to think of this in a sympathetic way. If you don’t really know some/a lot of the ‘guests’, why make it a festival-wedding? Just have a wedding with those who matter, then if you’re so desperate for the festival, have it, charge for it, and you won’t have to “deal with the attacks”! Easy peasy!

6. By the way, to the people attacking those who are pointing out the crassness of this whole thing by trying to belittle and insult on the basis of evolved-ness/free-thinkiness/whatever…

   Etiquette is basically systematising certain generally-accepted ways to be polite to other people. Yes, there are lots of etiquette rules that can be silly (this fork for that food), but in general the ones that are not silly are the ones that relate to being polite to others. And ‘being polite’ is really just another way of saying ‘being kind to others & considerate about their feelings when you don’t know them very well and/or cannot totally accurately judge their feelings.’ OK? Surely the ethos of being decent to other people fits in with your whole “We won’t be stifled by your hate and ordinariness, we exist on another plane” schtick. Right? And it’s just not very kind to assume that everyone you know and their dog will want to witness your marriage so much that they will be happy to attend an event catered to particular tastes, and pay for it too. Sure, most of them might, but it’s unkind to assume that they all will, and that those who aren’t don’t deserve to be at your wedding anyway.

7. @Riz, agree! cannot. stop. reading. this. thread. !!!

8. @184, “you have no right whatsoever to be offended or even speak”

   Alright, then.

   Permission to speak on the subject of you and your friends being offensive, self-righteous assholes?

   ZOMG, you really do exist on a different plain: “Plainly delusional”

   @194: Thanks! I do what I can.

9. @208
   There are Americans who know that it is tacky to put the wedding registry information on the invitation; that it should only be mentioned if a guest asks about it, but it’s so common that most of us just do our best to remember that our friends aren’t aware that putting a wedding registry on an invitation screams “come to my wedding and bring me something! something I have selected for you!”

   This wedding invitation, however, is so beyond ordinary unintended rudeness that it’s like the Goofus version of a wedding invitation.

10. I think it’s tacky to ask the bridesmaids to pay for their own (ugly, matching) dresses. I can’t even imagine asking guests to pay to attend.

11. Okay, I had my own epiphany about this nonsense last night. It just so happens that I work on a casual basis for a catering company of a high end caterer in the Twin Cities. We were setting up all the usual nonsense, and it dawned on me. The bridal party’s catering situation is nonsense. There is no way in hell my company would agree to such a thing without a “guarantee.” Let’s put it this way… they got to schlep out to some venue, bring all your shit, including food, staff, cleaning supplies, ect and HOPE that the guests are in a buying mood, bringing enough staff to serve everyone expediently but few enough to turn a profit? Umm…. no. What guarantee do they have that the guests are going to buy a certain amount? No way. Yes, food at weddings costs money, but any sane businessperson would demand either a) a set menu, prepaid before the event (or due upon the start of the event) or b) a “guarantee,” or an amount that gets paid in the event sales do not meet a minimum. I’m guessing the B&G have been assessed the latter and are trying to pass it off on their guests.

    We’ve done vendor style things in the past (not for weddings). Note I said PAST. The ONLY time they will do vendor stuff is for HUGE, publicly attended stuff, like college football games, Basilica Block Party, and other things guaranteed to bring people out in the thousands who are willing and able to buy concessions or the ability to sell liquor next to a venue (ahem, U of M) that doesn’t allow it and it’s known to be a good business plan, and they are SURE they are going to MAKE MONEY. I guarandamntee that if some couple called up today and said “I want you to come out and sell from your menu out of a vendor cart,” they wouldn’t say no, but you can be damned sure they’d put a pretty hefty UP FRONT price tag on it to even show up. If they sold enough, they’d give it back… otherwise, too bad.

    I can’t imagine that any other businesses would see this as anything other than a huge risk, and would charge accordingly. So, I’m guessing the B&G ARE paying more up front for food than if they’d just picked a menu (and kids, you could have picked cotton candy and corn dogs, if that’s what you wanted) and provided it for the guests. Restaurants are hard enough to run, and they have to guarantee they’re gonna git paid. Ain’t no guarantee by just showing up at this kind of wedding with a cart, particularly when many of the guests might not buy anything because they were supposed to get a free meal. And yes, it says on the invitation, but tell me SOMEONE isn’t going to show up and leave in a huff because well, people expect, at the very least to be fed for free at a wedding. Cash bars are becoming more acceptable, but a free meal is the minimum. Not to mention the guests who, like other smart carnival-goers, eat a meal beforehand and only snack at the ceremony. Seriously, when’s the last time YOU bought a full on meal at a fair? I don’t know about you, but I don’t typically go hungry because it would cost a fortune. Especially if you brought a date.

    I’m just saying from a business standpoint, it doesn’t make any sense unless the vendors got a guarantee.

12. Bottom line: you either have guests or customers. Not both.

13. @198: Agreed. I know at least one couple whose respective halves are from opposite sides of the country, so deciding on a COAST, much less a venue, is already fraught with risk and drama. In any case, SOMEBODY’S family will have to schlep themselves a far, far distance.

    In those cases, I think many couples understand the problems and take pains to stress that nobody is obligated to attend, while trying to keep costs down for the closest family and friends.

    @214: Ditto. I figure: (1) You pay for the awful dresses yourself, (2) pick a dress budget that *easily* accommodates everyone, or (3) my favourite, just ask bridesmaids to colour-co-ordinate or something similarly simple. I always found the “identical bridesmaids” kind of creepy anyway.

14. “To sum it all up, you have no right whatsoever to be offended or even speak about the event being held by complete strangers which you are not even invited to in the first place.”
    -J242

    WRONG! We are ALL INVITED, as this is a PUBLIC EVENT!!!! A burning man theme camp is running the bar as a fundraising stragegy! They are hoping for as many people as they can get to come, which means YOU GENTLE READER, YES YOU! You are invited! (Just not to the VIP area.)

15. Aah, the eternal question — What’s Love Got To Do With It?
    Call me old fashioned (and BTW Ihave no problem with cash as a gift — newlyweds are often broke and short on space) but isn’t the heartwarming fuzziness of sharing your commitment to true love with all your nearest and dearest enough of a thrill? Do you really need fire jugglers, flame swallowers, acrobats, circus freaks, aerialists, burlesque dancers, and contortionists to make it worth your friends’ while to come?
    I hate to think what this couple’s sex life will become, in their endless quest for MORE.

16. To get so bent outta shape guys. This is the last hurrah for these idiots to prove they are ‘different’ and ‘special’. Pretty soon the bride will shit out a couple of kids and get fat and the groom will be driving a minivan and they will move to the suburbs and remember the old days. Then their kids will fuck off to college and hardly ever come home because their parents are losers and they will go to thier own stupid festivals and think that makes them special too. It’s the cycle of life.
    Lay off and enjoy watching it.

17. @219

    “Do you really need fire jugglers, flame swallowers, acrobats, circus freaks, aerialists, burlesque dancers, and contortionists to make it worth your friends’ while to come?”

    Apparently you do if you’re a rude, egotistical, pretentious, hipster douche.

18. J242, This :

    See, rather than give some tacky kitchen appliance or whatnot, in our circle we prefer experiences. For a variety of events from birthdays to holidays, we give each other great experiences like traveling, hosting a party, going out camping, etc, etc, etc. It’s far more meaningful than some tangible item that anyone can get for themselves at any time. That’s how we do things, if that’s not your thing, that’s fine. We’re not coming out trashing you for buying shitty gifts for people on events now are we? Of course not, you can celebrate events however you want and so can the B&G…

    has got to be one of the most pretentious, self indulgent pieces of BS I have read online and that is REALLY saying a lot.
    And excuse me, you obviously ARE trashing people for the “shitty gifts’ you think they are giving. How is repeatedly referring to them as “shitty” and “boring” not trashing them?

19. Let me add… the comments defending this couple as “unconventional” and “not playing by the rules” are so tragically predictable. The fact that this wedding and invitation are non traditional and “unconventional” are NOT what is wrong with this. Instead of trying to either conform to or flaunt what is considered conventional etiquette, why not just think about treating people well?
    Some of this couple’s defenders OBVIOUSLY look down on people they think are more “traditional” and “conventional” than they are, and who do things like have church weddings or give blenders as gifts.
    Being “unconventional” does NOT make you more creative or interesting. This juvenalia is ridiculous.
    and notice, I am not passing judgement on the wedding itself…only your attitude towards others.

20. So… did this wedding thing happen yet? I’m looking forward to the review.

21. The only time it’s acceptable to mention money in a wedding invitation is to state that the bride and groom would prefer their guests make a donation to a specific charity in lieu of a gift.

22. @223,

    Bravo. Well said.

23. Just as a little aside:

    I went to a very non-conventional wedding which involved many Burners (including the B&G and the wedding party).

    They designed their own ceremony and did it on a small budget.

    And it was GORGEOUS. No one had to pay a dime unless they wanted a cocktail that wasn’t on the hosted list.

    They kept the guest list small so they could afford it, had many of their friends perform, paying for their expenses, but many of the performers were happy to do it for free, as their gift.

    It was a spectacle with aerial acts, hula hoopers, and fabulous dance numbers, terrific photography, and amazing djs- and they did it to celebrate their relationship with their community.

    They asked for gifts of a “pay it forward” variety, asking only for guests to post to a website where they donated or how they paid the love forward.

    My point? Burners can have “spectacle” and “non-conventional” weddings without being assholes. They can design an event that celebrates the love of their community, and the love of the B&G without charging admission.

24. I had a very unconventional wedding, and have attended several outdoor, carnival, burlesque, festival, or otherwise different weddings. I have seen bridesmaids in pasties and slip’n’slides at receptions and everything in between.

    Never, ever, once, would anyone I know DARE to ask their guests to pay for food, or tell some friends that they’re entitled to participate more than others because they’re more important.

    This isn’t a critique because someone is doing something different, it’s saying that charging admission (implicitly or explicitly), charging for food, and giving a “suggested donation” isn’t just tacky, it’s outright offensive.

    Yes, when my friends invite me to their wedding, I spend a decent amount on a gift, but once I was invited to a baby shower where they said they ONLY wanted gifts off their list, each of which started at $50, and I didn’t get them anything. If they hadn’t said anything, I would likely have spent more than $50 on gift, but the arrogant presumption and DEMAND that I spend my money how they want is so offensive it’s sick. I didn’t even attend the event, and don’t speak with them anymore.

    I don’t care if you’re spending half a million dollars to rent U2 and providing caviar served on naked supermodels, you STILL don’t get to charge admission for your wedding, and to think it’s ok shows just how out of touch you you really are with reality.

25. “I don’t care if you’re spending half a million dollars to rent U2 and providing caviar served on naked supermodels, you STILL don’t get to charge admission for your wedding, and to think it’s ok shows just how out of touch you you really are with reality. “

    That might be my favorite comment in the entire, remarkably long IA!

26. The wedding was amazing, btw. I have never seen a happier group of people in my life.

27. Lemme guess @230, the people in the VIP?

28. I fucked the bride and that cost me twenty five dollars. It would have been thirty dollars before the wedding so I waited and saved a fiver.

29. Where is the follow-up? I’ve been checking this damn thing for almost two months now and there has been no follow-up.

30. Follow-up: http://lineout.thestranger.com/lineout/a…

31. Can you repost the follow-up link? I’m dead curious as well, and the link got cut off!!

Comments are closed.