I’m a happily married woman. I have a great sex life with my husband of many years. He’s helped me discover things I didn’t know about myself sexually. The problem: Three years ago, my first love contacted me after 23 years. He was married at the time, although he didn’t want to be, and told me that he never stopped loving me. We have been having sexy e-chats ever since. My loving, GGG husband says that I can help my old flame out if I wish. What would you do in this situation?

Chick With 2 Dicks

What would I do? Besides thank my lucky stars, kiss my loving, GGG husband, and fuck the shit out of the other guy?

A few things, CW2D.

I would think hard—brainhard, not junkhard—about the potential powderkegginess of the situation. Not the powderkegginess of the having-sex-with-someone-other-than-my-husband-with-my-husband’s-consent situation, but the possible-shitstorm-that-could-ensue-after-fucking-this-particular-someone-who-isn’t-my-husband situation.

This Particular Someone says he’s still in love with you, CW2D. That’s nice. Are you still in love with TPS? If not, what happens if fucking TPS reignites dormant feelings for TPS that, oh, three years (!) of texting and sexting haven’t? Even if you don’t feel any more strongly for TPS after fucking him, CW2D, what if TPS decides that you really are the one-and-only love of his life and that he absolutely, positively has to have you all to himself?

TPS isn’t some rando, as the kids say. You two share a history, CW2D, and TPS could present—or become—a threat to the stability of your happy, GGG marriage. So could a complete stranger you met on the street or online, of course, but the emotional stakes and potential for complications are much, much higher with TPS than they would be with some other dude.

So before you do TPS, CW2D, you need to think brainhard about these issues and discuss them at length with your husband. And if you decide to go ahead with it after hashing this shit out with your husband, CW2D, be clear with TPS about what it is you want. If all you’re interested in is a friendship, some affection, and a little non-cyber sex for old time’s sake—if leaving your husband, or being poly, is out of the question—TPS needs to know that before you “help him out.”

(A note to everyone already composing angry e-mails about the qualified “go for it” I gave to CW2D: Yes, yes: Every couple you know who’s ever had a three-way or okayed a fling wound up divorced. And that may be true—of the couples whose three-ways and flings you know about. You know lots of couples who’ve had three-ways and flings who aren’t divorced, but you don’t know you know them. Most married couples want to be perceived as monogamous even—especially!—when they’re not. So your friends who aren’t divorcing as the result of a disastrous fling, affair, swinging experience, three-way, etc., aren’t going to tell you about all the successful flings, affairs, etc., they’ve enjoyed.)

I am 22, standing in a bookstore on Castro Street—this is many years ago, just after I dropped out of Bible college and hitchhiked to San Francisco—looking at a gay BDSM magazine for the first time in my life, trying to hide my erection, reading a story about a Master who makes his naked slave carry to his Master’s friends a six-pack of beer that’s hanging from a rope that’s tied to his nuts. To my horror, I shoot a load in my pants without touching myself.

My problem: A bit older now, I’m still very much that boy in the bookstore. The things that turn me on are what my own mind—still brainwashed by Southern Baptists—deems “bad.” I tell myself it’s okay to embrace my “kinks.” I tell myself to stop analyzing why I’m turned on by forced-exhibitionistic-sex-slave fantasies and just accept them. The problem is that I perceive my fantasies as reactionary: They exist by definition in reaction to my upbringing. What is my hard-on but a big “fuck you” to the preachers, prudes, and family members who made me miserable?

What would turn me on if I could get free of the whole fucked-up system? Am I asking questions that shouldn’t be asked? Should I just enjoy the fact that I’m turned on by humiliation and seek safe and sane situations to act out my fantasies?

Having A Rough Day

There are people who do not share your craycrayfundy/biblestudy life experiences, HARD, who are nevertheless turned on by the exact same things you are. Human beings are primates, our cultures and societies involve all sorts of overt and covert power dynamics, and almost all humans wind up eroticizing those power dynamics to greater or lesser extents. Some of us eroticize them in subtle ways (pleasure taken in “servicing” a partner, a desire to be held down, a mild foot fetish), others more baroquely (elaborate D/s scenarios complete with props, costumes, and clearly defined roles), but power, as a gross old man once observed, is the ultimate aphrodisiac.

Even if we could determine that your kinks were shaped by your upbringing, HARD, the shit that turns you on is still going to turn you on. And if your kinks are a “fuck you” to the preachers, prudes, and family members who made you miserable—that’s a “fuck you” they earned. Let them have it. (I mean it: Take pictures. Mail ’em to that preacher.)

And remember: There are people out there having vanilla, hetero, missionary intercourse in unhealthy, abusive relationships, HARD. You can explore your sexuality in healthy or unhealthy ways, but you can’t escape who you are and what turns you on. So stop beating yourself up, HARD, and go find a nice, kinky guy who takes that responsibility off your hands. (Here’s some great advice for gay guys just beginning to explore BDSM: tinyurl.com/bensten.)

Reading your column made me a supporter of the LGBT community. The LGBT community deserves equal rights, just like any other group of citizens. Period. However, I must protest Kate Bornstein’s comments in a recent column. She said that sex-positive heterosexuals who support the LBGT community are not “straight” men, but “queer heterosexual” men. Sometimes it’s hard for me to get people who are not gay to support LGBT equality because they’re afraid that someone will call their straightness into question. Don’t make it harder.

Liberal And Straight

Being a big ol’ queer myself, LAS, I viewed Kate’s suggestion as a compliment. But your point is well taken, everyone gets to choose his or her own label, and you’re straight in my book.

DID YOU MAKE AN “IT GETS BETTER” VIDEO? If you identify as LGBT, you’re 18 years of age or older, and you made or appeared in an “It Gets Better” video, science—science!—wants to hear from you about your perspectives and experiences. If you have 15–20 minutes to spare, please take this survey: http://z.umn.edu/itgetsbetter.

ARE YOU MARRIED? Have you had successful flings, affairs, swinging experiences, and three-ways that your friends and family members will never know about? Send me an e-mail, share your story, and I’ll publish it.

mail@savagelove.net

@fakedansavage on Twitter

190 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. EricaP,
    I’m sorry to hear that even when you’re married, dating is just the same. Unfortunately, your experience is not unusual. I think men and women (or at least the men I’ve known and I) have differing understandings of what NSA means. To me, it always meant no expectations of a real relationship–we don’t meet each other’s parents, etc. and no one expects an engagement ring at Valentine’s day. But to all the men I’ve tried to have an NSA sexual relationship with, it seems to mean that the very second you’re finished orgasming (or, more precisely, he is), you don’t hear from him again until the next time he’s desperate for sex, which is often two to three months later. And if you try to initiate any sort of communication, you get treated with a distant politeness or outright ignored.

    It made me decide I can’t do the NSA thing–not that way.

    And it is one of the things I would think would be a perk of being in a “real” relationship–like your marriage. When my ex-husband and I were house-hunting, it was such a nerve-wracking, dispiriting experience. When we had finally bought our house, we were so relieved not to be doing that anymore: competing against all those hopeful, equally desperate, perhaps more financially solvent couples, all hoping to get their dream house. About three years after buying ours, we wandered into a few open houses in our general neighborhood one Sunday, out of sheer curiosity and were plunged back into the same world of hopeful, desperate searchers, trying to convince themselves that the overpriced, too-small house with the dry rot and the foundation damage and kitchen with the charmless formica countertops was just what they’d always dreamed of and were damn lucky to get if they could. We went back to our home, cute, if a bit small, and heaved a giant sigh of relief, ecstatic to not be in that competition anymore.

    I’m truly sympathetic to your dating difficulties, but at least you have a husband and opting out of this farce doesn’t leave you all alone.

  2. I realize that my “at least you have a husband” remark makes me sound like a woman circa 1954, and that’s not how I think of myself. I just meant that there’s nothing like dating to remind you of how yucky dating can sometimes be, and if I was not dependent on it for the possibility of any sort of intimacy, meaningful connection, or sex, there’s not a chance in hell I’d sign on voluntarily.

  3. Ms Cute – Change “husband” to “primary”?

    It somewhat reminds me of the bi/gay debate (which is actually one of the biggest reasons I’m highly skeptical about ever attaining equality, as that would be surrendering one of the biggest wedges between us), but I cannot continue this, as I am off to the dentist.

  4. 151 I’m not sure what accounts for the difference in our experiences with men, but the ones I dated (back when I was dating) did not want sex with me once followed by silence afterwards and did not enjoy the chase more than the relationship/friendship that followed. I’m familiar with the stereotype. I know what it is to be pursued, and I know what it is for a relationship to go bust a short while into it and after sex. I’ve never concluded that the relationship went bust because of the sex and that it would have continued if I’d put off sex longer.

    I’m familiar with rejection. But I have never gotten to the “all men are scum” state that you seem to have. In my experience, men are a lot like women emotionally. They want the chase, connection, friendship, sex, a continuing relationship, and the occasional no strings attached.

  5. @153, Yes, I’d extend it to some women; I haven’t slept with them, though.

    @157, I don’t think men are scum; I think (many of) the one’s I’ve dated are unhappy with their lives. I’m glad you’ve had better experiences.

    @154 – thanks for your post – I appreciate it. Good luck out there!

  7. @157 – also, it seems like you’re comparing your apples to my oranges. The question is not: why don’t these guys want to be in a relationship with me. The question is why, if they do want sex with me, don’t they see that they could have that on tap in exchange for a little more effort on the back-end (as it were).

  8. Or, to put it another way, I’m looking for X+Y, where X = occasional hot sex, and Y=a few emails a month, just light chit-chat with each other.
    Why is Y such a high price, that most men don’t seem willing to pay it? Or do they not understand the transaction? If not, shouldn’t those pickup artist classes include five minutes of instruction on how to keep a woman happy enough that she’ll come back for more when you want it, rather than badmouth you to her friends?

  9. @ 152: You make a lot of sense. Great sex, or even anticipating mind-blowing nirvana-state sex, is one thing. It only fills the god-shaped hole for only so long, and then people are again faced with the inevitable prospect of tending to what troubles them, and leaves them devoid of any real satisfaction, or longer-term health and happiness.

    If people came into relationships knowing who they are and their true wants and needs, then a lot of the above would be eradicated. I guess it takes life experience, time and a blessed connection with a significant other to initiate this realization.

    Well said, how you said it; and with many less words than I did lol. Thanks for a good read everyone. Cheers to one and all who read…..

  11. For most people, successful relationships, marriages in particular, require a lot of work beyond dealing with the daily hassles that is life.

    I don’t know if I’d make the effort or sacrifices for a poly, monogamish, or nonmonogamous relationships; but then that’s just me and how I’m wired.

    There are a lot of demands on a person’s time and everyone has to prioritize things and people. Priorities change constantly and it is very easy to lose track of time or take things and people for granted (consciously as well as subconsciously)

  12. Ms Erica – I sense a book deal somewhere here.

    Unless you cater to more (or less?) of a niche market than one might expect, it’s hard to imagine you having to resort to the kind of men who take PUA classes (or is that what you like?). Had this been some other sort of man, the answer might be to date PUA class instructors, but it seems almost impossible to imagine you with someone who is best described by words I don’t use.

  14. @166 – people who write books anonymously are always outed. I don’t want to be outed, so I can’t publish in any serious way. But thanks for your kind words.

    I had an interesting talk with Mr. P. over lunch about my desire for ongoing email contact. We decided that (a) maybe I should learn more about sports, to provide a topic for the idle chit-chat; and (b) maybe I don’t want the chit-chat as much as I think I do. I decided that I like the guys who write once to say “glad to hear you got home safely” and then write again (even after a month or two) to say, “I’d love to see you; can we find a time in the next week or so?”

    It’s the ones who only write at 11pm, to say “Are you free now?” – that’s what pisses me off. Seems to treat me as a widget, not a person. But that’s fine; maybe it works for them. Even if two people find each other attractive, they may not be a good match; that’s a basic rule of dating. I just have to keep it in mind.

  15. @167 nocutename: Thanks for the link! That’s right–I’d forgotten that they changed to Babeland. I’m subscribing to their newsletter.
    I’m still in search of a Brad Pitt doll…..sighhhhhh.
    Oh, well. A girl can erotically dream.

  16. @EricaP:

    First of all, if you don’t want to make sports chat ordinarily, I don’t think it’s a good idea to try and learn enough about a subject you’re not interested in for its own sake to try and make chit chat you hope will keep an inconsiderate boor interested enough in you to cough up a modicum of interaction.

    Second, I don’t think that men find making sports talk sexy or flirtatious, and as far as I can tell, that would be the best goal of the conversations, right? I mean, you’re not looking for a friendship based on shared political views, or office gossip, or a mutual love for an arcane subject. You’re looking for an ongoing fuck buddy, an FWB more about the benefits than the friendship. So what you want from the idle chatter is to keep the flirtation going, so that you’ll both (a key word, given the scenario you’ve described so well) feel desired and want to get together and enjoy each other again. Sports chat isn’t going to do that.

    Thirdly, I have to question whether anything you study up on to make yourself more “follow-through-worthy” is ever going to work with someone so inconsiderate and boorish or (with apologies) “just not that into you.” I think you’d be better cutting your losses, refining your search and more carefully vetting to begin with your partner pool.

    But I have to say, that if the sports chat was Mr. P’s idea, than I have to question his intentions. I know he’s your Dom; does he want to humiliate you? Not want you to have a regular, steady extramarital partner?

  17. @161

    Erica, I never had that kind of experience, I typically had a lot of the opposite. (I wanted NSA they wanted me to be their girlfriend)

    The kind of behaviour you’re talking about is probably from them having too much of that kind of experience. So they’re extra dickish as a preemptive measure (so you don’t get any ideas in that pretty head of yours). A lot of women (and men) get into NSA and then develop the feelings. They’re probably just doing a shoddy and immature job trying to prevent that from happening.

    In my own experience the cliche that guys act distant/assholey once they’ve slept with a woman is complete bull. I found guys were much nicer/friendlier/etc after I slept with them. So your story intrigues me.

    I might hazard a guess that it has a bit to do with the personality you’re going for and you might want to weed out that type of men pre-encounter.

  19. @EricaP: You said:
    “It’s the ones who only write at 11pm, to say “Are you free now?” – that’s what pisses me off. Seems to treat me as a widget, not a person. But that’s fine; maybe it works for them.”

    I suggest that it isn’t “fine” at all. You aren’t a widget, and you’ve just said you don’t like being treated as something one step above a fleshlight, which is reasonable. So why do you immediately back-pedal and cut them some slack. Because it allows you to continue to put up with behavior you’d never approve for your friends, your sister, or your own daughter. You are always counseling women who write in to this column to have more sexual agency or make themselves and their *pleasure* more a priority.

    Yet you don’t take your own advice, and try to talk yourself out of a perfectly understandable irritation, which should lead to your unwillingness to have anything further to do with these bozos and instead set yourself up to continue taking expressions of disrespect as your due.

    I know you like to sub, but this isn’t really the form you want that subbing to take, is it?

  20. @171/173 – the sports was my idea; I was trying to think about what I would want us to chit-chat about, and then I questioned why it should be my chosen topic, rather than something of interest to them. You’re right – sports isn’t my thing and would seem fake.

    @172, Some guys clearly do this (see @154, as well as my recent experience). And, yes, I should be weeding them out, not figuring out how to get them to do chit chat.

    @175 – I don’t say yes to their booty calls. I just mean: I don’t need to try to persuade them of the error of their ways. If they’re doing it that way, maybe that’s working for them (with other women). Not my problem.

  21. @171 – “You’re looking for an ongoing fuck buddy, an FWB more about the benefits than the friendship.” Actually, I’ve come to prefer real friendships that also include sex. I have that with a couple of people from my BDSM circle, and that’s working out well. I got annoyed with a couple of other men, whose company I enjoyed in and out of bed… and I guess I got ahead of myself in thinking we were becoming friends-who-fuck, rather than just a booty call.

  25. @181 I wonder if there’s a sports blog for people who don’t keep up with sports much but want to avoid asking stupid questions. A place that explains: these are the ten things people will be talking about this week, and why.

  28. Though, I do agree that learning about a topic that doesn’t interest you just to make conversation is probably not a good idea, it may be worthwhile to learn a bit and see if it does pique your interest.

    Personally, I enjoy football, but that’s about it for sports. And, while I’ll watch pretty much any team, I’m really only concerned about 1. The other games/stats are just so I’m familiar with how things affect “my” team. But, I’ve learned that I can appreciate other sports as well. When I lived in a house full of basketball fans, they were impressed that I came to understand the game so quickly (they thought I was just reading or playing on my phone). So it is possible to find that, with the right people sports that seemed boring to watch before can be interesting.*

    *I still can’t find anyone to make me enjoy watching golf…

  29. Man, I find sports painfully boring. The only thing I find even slightly interesting is fighting. Mostly because you generally don’t need an in-depth understanding of rules to follow it and also because who doesn’t love violence and blood?

    @181 Call me old-fashioned but no guy (or gal) who wanted to get in my pants bothered to try converting me to sportsfandom. They also didn’t seem disappointed that what they were angling for is actually my sport of choice.

  30. @ 170: I’m with you. If one or the other within a couple is into sports and the one is not, it makes it possibly annoying to have stop the action and explain things to someone who maybe doesn’t get it at all, and maybe never will.

    I’ve found over time that it’s sometimes less about what a couple’s individual interests are than it is about their shared ability for being into what they like and do.

    Sometimes people can turn you on to something that you used to find disinteresting. I’m not that versed in sports myself, but if I am around someone who has an infectious-enough way of enjoying it all; having a passion for what they like; it can rub off on you and get you into it all by way of naturally-spreading enthusiasm.

    Learning about not only yourself but the world through someone else’s eyes: it can be a beautiful thing. If you’re lucky, you can find the right match who complements you without it ever becoming static, stagnant or passionless.

    I dig it when anyone knows what they are talking about. Knowledge: knowing your shit. I gravitate towards that sort of thing.

    Great chain of replies this week in here, not that other weeks aren’t any good or anything lol 🙂 .

    Take Care, Everyone. Cheers. +~+~

  31. @ 170: I’m with you. If one or the other within a couple is into sports and the one is not, it makes it possibly annoying to have stop the action and explain things to someone who maybe doesn’t get it at all, and maybe never will.

    I’ve found over time that it’s sometimes less about what a couple’s individual interests are than it is about their shared ability for being into what they like and do.

    Sometimes people can turn you on to something that you used to find disinteresting. I’m not that versed in sports myself, but if I am around someone who has an infectious-enough way of enjoying it all; having a passion for what they like; it can rub off on you and get you into it all by way of naturally-spreading enthusiasm.

    Learning about not only yourself but the world through someone else’s eyes: it can be a beautiful thing. If you’re lucky, you can find the right match who complements you without it ever becoming static, stagnant or passionless.

    I dig it when anyone knows what they are talking about. Knowledge: knowing your shit. I gravitate towards that sort of thing.

    Great chain of replies this week in here, not that other weeks aren’t any good or anything lol 🙂 .

    Take Care, Everyone. Cheers. +~+~

  33. Ms Erica reminds me of Dr Joyce Brothers, who deliberately became an expert on (if memory serves) boxing statistics in order to win legitimately on the $64,000 Question.

  34. @EricaP: Regarding your NSA issues: I just ended a FWB situation. I met a cool, non-psycho, attractive woman through a sex site. We had enough in common to do more than just fuck–phone conversation, text, hang out, fix dinner after, catch the occasional movie, etc. Then she started staying overnight. Then she invited me to her father’s house for Thanksgiving. All this after we had an explicit conversation about the NSA nature of our relationship.

    It was nominally an NSA arrangement, but things were drifting in another direction. That can happen and there’s nothing wrong when it does. But I felt like a dick whenever I made an effort to alter that course.

    It’s a fine line keeping things on a “just friends” basis. There’s a lot of social conditioning to overcome regarding the progressive nature of relationships. Besides, to borrow from Woody Allen, relationships are like sharks–they move forward or they die.

  36. @182 re my post @181: I meant that as a compliment. You’re so cool and upbeat, I thought you were also into sports. You offer really good suggestions, tips, and advice.

    I haven’t been up on sports since my divorce, but get occasionally curious as to how the Mariners, Seahawks, Huskies, and Thunderbirds are doing.

    @192 repete: So—-how are the UW & WSU football and basketball teams doing? Will the Seahawks make the playoffs? It seems like the only time I ever see hockey anymore is if I’m watching “Slap Shot” on my DVD player.

  37. “Most married couples want to be perceived as monogamous even—especially!—when they’re not.”

    Soooo, how do you go about being non-monogamous when everybody you know thinks you’re monogamous (and thus a cheating pig for behaving otherwise)?

  38. @194 OKCupid. Or AdultFriendFinder. Or attending swinger parties / poly get-togethers / sex clubs. And you don’t fuck crazy, because crazy is likely to sit on your doorstep in tears after the inevitable breakup.

  39. @186 mydriasis: Nobody is pressuring you into being a sports fan.
    Just as I wouldn’t automatically expect you to be a rabid hockey fan if you’re Canadian, eh?

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