I am a happily married,
happily nonmonogamous male. We are not wild swinger types. For us it’s
more about the fact that monogamy does not work than about nailing
everything that walks by. Anyway, I have encountered an odd situation a
few times now, and again last night, where I’ll be flirting with a
potential fling and she knows I’m married and she’s very interested.
But when she finds out my marriage is nonmonogamous, she suddenly backs
out. Case in point, a coworker: We have been flirting since I started
my new job a few months ago. Today she asked me what my wife would do
if she found out I was sneaking around on her. Good time to make a full
disclosure! But when I told her my situation, that was the end of our
flirtation.

Any idea why women find the idea of cheating
with me okay, but once they find out I have a free go of things, they
walk?

No Figuring Women

This woman didn’t find the idea of cheating
with you “okay,” NFW, she wanted to fuck you because you’re married and
presumably monogamous. Try to look at it from her perspective: When she
thought you were willing to cheat on your wife to be with her, NFW,
that meant you found her so attractive, so utterly irresistible, that
you would break your marriage vows and risk everything to get into her
pants. Sleeping with her with your wife’s permission? Meh, where’s the
ego boost in that?

I am a 40-ish married straight woman
living in New York. I have been happily married in a monogamous
relationship for 11 years. My husband and I met when we were in our
early 20s. After listening to all of the Savage Lovecasts together, we
started to talk about the idea of “some degree of openness,” as you put
it.

In the past year, I have had a crush on a
coworker. My husband is okay with me having something on the side with
this coworker. This coworker is single (last I heard) and 17 years
younger (yikes!), and he knows I am married. We had a great working
relationship while we were assigned to a project together, but now he’s
in another department. My question is, how to go from here? After
having a few good talks with my husband, I am excited about this idea
and terrified. I’m having a private lunch with my coworker soon. This
is fine with my husband. What can you tell me to calm me the hell down
and not be so stressed? After being conditioned my whole life that
monogamy is the only way to go, I am having a hard time shifting!

Newly Open Couple Lacks
Understanding
& Education

Have that lunch, and tell your
coworker/crush that you and the husband are just beginning to explore
the idea of openness. For all you know now, your much younger coworker
may not be interested in being your piece on the side. If it turns out
that he is interested, take things very, very slowly and keep your
husband fully informed. But even if I could relieve you of your stress
and anxiety with a few words, NOCLUE, I wouldn’t. You should be anxious and stressed out; it’s appropriate to be anxious
and stressed out. Your nervousness is prompting you to take things
slowly and to be careful and conscientious about your husband’s
feelings. If this works out—for you, for your coworker, for your
husband—it will be in large part thanks to the stress, NOCLUE,
not despite it. Enjoy.

I am in a strange situation. I work
in the corporate sector in marketing and sales. It is a high-stress,
fast-paced job, and everyone has a short fuse. I have a coworker who is
losing business to a competitor who happens to be gay. In her fits of
anger, she keeps calling him a faggot. I hate it. The thing is, I am
not gay. And if anyone in our office is, they are in the closet. She
has used the word in front of other coworkers and even our boss, and no
one seems to be bothered.

I am torn about what I should do. I am
black, and if she were using the word “nigger,” I would call her on it
and raise issue with our HR department. Can I file a complaint on
behalf of a group I do not belong to? If she found out I complained,
she would see it as a threat to her own job, which could lead to a
decidedly hostile workplace. But if it were a racial slur, I would not
let that deter me. I want to do the right thing. How would you handle
the situation?

Not My Problem?

If someone at my office were tossing the
word “nigger” around, NMP, I would lodge a complaint. I would resent
the assumption on my coworker’s part that since I’m white she can use
racist speech in my presence, because, hey, all us white people are
racist POS, right? And I would complain because a workplace that
tolerates racist remarks is a workplace that tolerates homophobic
remarks. If people are using “nigger” when there aren’t any black
people in the room, they’re doubtless using “faggot” when there aren’t
any gay people in the room. And vice versa. Have a word with HR.

I have a new coworker, a young man
who is gay and quite effeminate. He’s slim, wears makeup, has
boyish/feminine features, and has done some modeling work as a woman.
He said in a lunchroom discussion today that he prefers to wear women’s
clothes. He said he had worn women’s clothes at a previous workplace,
and no one had been offended. I suggested he talk to HR to protect his
job before coming to work dressed in women’s clothing. Good advice or
should I just mind my own business? One coworker suggested that he work
up to it, while another said he should just do it and let the chips
fall where they may. The question of what restroom he should use when
dressed as a woman came up. I’m not 100 percent comfortable sharing the
ladies’ room with him. Though I am certain most of the men won’t be
comfortable sharing the men’s room with him either.

Do you have any suggestions on how to handle
situations where I might find myself in the same restroom as my newest
coworker?

She Knows It’s Really Trivial

If your coworker identifies as female, she
should use the women’s room. If he identifies as male, he should use
the men’s room. And seeing as he’s using the men’s room
now—despite his wearing makeup and being openly gay—I don’t
see how the addition of a dress should change things for his male
coworkers. And from the way you describe that lunchroom conversation,
SKIRT, it sounds like your effeminate new coworker has at least some
support at work—but yes, he should have a talk with HR.

As for “handling situations” where you find
yourself in the same restroom with your newest coworker, SKIRT, unless
you routinely offer to zip up your coworkers or wipe their asses for
them, I don’t see how his presence—or his attire or the
particular brand of genitalia tucked into his panties—really
impacts you at all. recommended

mail@savagelove.net

172 replies on “Savage Love”

  1. @84: Homosexuals aren’t protected under the constitution? Really? I’m an Australian who has never taken a single class to do with American history or politics. I’m not a constitution buff. Still my mind immediately jumped to Amendment 14, section 1:

    All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

    No-one needs a new article of the constitution to specially guarantee them their rights. Such a law would be redundant, and furthermore it would be sending a message that amendment 14 didn’t already guarantee them equal protection. Such a message is dangerous. it paints people as second class citizens in need of special protection because they’re not ‘really americans’ and therefore 14 doesn’t apply.

    So yeah, go to HR if you need to. Everyone is guaranteed equal protection under the law in your country, and if you are denied it then get the ACLU on your side. shit like workplace discrimination shouldn’t stand.

  2. questyman, in our country there is a difference between federal and state law, whereby individual states often have laws that are not constitutional and the citizenry are expected to move away or go to federal court to challenge the status quo. Sodomy for example is illegal in some states, but not others.
    In many states workplace discrimination by sexual orientation is not punishable either. There’s a link to the state of the Union at my blog.
    http://helgaleena.mylivepage.com/blog/14…

    Dan’s advice is posed for an ideal world which we have not yet created.

  3. NOCLUE is delusional. The husband may not thinks he minds, but he WILL mind. The coworker likely isn’t the slightest bit interested. There is no Good Idea in her plan anywhere.

  5. Some people (married or not) like to flirt. But many don’t want to take it any further. Especially if she realized you’ve had multiple partners while married. All inclusive partners, too. Maybe the straight women you’re flirting with have limited sexual experience and you’re on a whole different playing field. Maybe she’s completely vanilla and she’d be opening herself to something she’s not ready for (and probably never will be) but that should be alright. Accept it but my advice would be to apologize. Tell your co-worker you didn’t mean to weird her out like that. Don’t expect her to be friendly but in the future she might get past it and you could be on ‘friendly’ terms. I don’t mean sleeping with her but just being nice again with some boundaries in place so you don’t creep her out.

  6. SKIRT’s bathroom issue is easy: Whatever your sex, you should be able to use the waste receptacle you feel most comfortable using. An establishment’s separation of restrooms by gender is a courtesy to its patrons, offered at their own discretion. People aren’t guaranteed a particular restroom at any public destination. Separate restrooms are a luxury, so I don’t know why someone would tell a person they cannot go into one if they can’t go in the other? As for perverts, I’m sure they go in and do whatever they intend to, regardless of what it says on the door. Could it be that those apposed to SKIRT, or any other genderqueer individuals using certain restrooms, are still under the impression that she and others like her are perverted?

  7. there are women that literally LIVE for the conquest that fucking/entangling a married/attached man, or even an object of another woman’s desire, represents.
    these women usually like with a prolific and pandemic sense of envy. they usually NEVER admit to being jealous, EVER (it’s not fun for anyone, but let’s face it- EVERYONE experiences it once in a while… and in some people it is channeled in really healthy ways!) and like to pretend they are completely beyond desiring what another woman has, even though it’s taking/stealing emotionally and sexually is what seems to drive them most.

    it just isn’t desirable unless it’s being missed or desired by another woman. that’s the bottom line with these classless ladies…
    whether you are a male OR female, looking to date/hook up, or just trying to mind your own life and relationships with passion and integrity- the sooner you can spot these creatures and STAY CLEAR, no matter how tempting their pretty faces or whatever the tempting factors, the sooner you can exterminate the ugliest and most insidious forms of drama from your life.

  8. This woman wasn’t interested sexually and the guy is dealing with a bruised EGO!

    He’s only interested in what he can’t have. He should stay with persons that are interested in him and someone he truly desires.

    He has a significant other and many other people that are willing to put out. He’s only ‘pining’ for the one that got away simply because she withdrew herself completely. His significant other realizes this. If she was slurry enough to put out then he would sleep with her and move on to his next conquest. She wasn’t interested and he’s spending a lot of time analyzing this. That’s what’s bugging his significant other.

    Get over it and move on. I’m sure there is a kinky str8t woman out there that will sleep with you and you can forget about your co-worker. Don’t dwell on it.

  11. I find this discussion very entertaining but I am so proud of the men in Houston, especially those local movers in Houston because most of whom are in monogamous marriages and they are happy about it. I don’t see why monogamy should be boring or tiresome. It’s clean, fun and you don’t spread all kinds of diseases in the universe.

  12. I think if you are in a relationship or marriage with someone, you need to be straight with your partner, and it’s good to see how each couple above tackle this issue of a non monogamous marriage. Personally though, if you’re going to be more open sexually, your partner should be part of the experience, and not left out while you sleep around.

    On another note, a lot of women I know are in long-term relationships and voice a want to see more people with their partner. It’s not just us guys! 😛

  13. Roger Baldwin isn’t much of a Shakespearian when he doesn’t understand how to conjugate verbs as the English did in the time of Shakespeare. Man, that’s just painful to read.

  15. #139: My, my, I’m sorry that I touched a nerve! Not only did you attack me personally–which I found really over the top–but you really extrapolated from what I said.

    “Pitched to” is far more specific and pejorative than “approach.” I didn’t say that I didn’t want to be approached by men who are interested in dating me–that I would reject them out of the gate simply because they’re interested. I was referring to a subset of such approaches that are overly canned and scripted–whether overtly aggressive or insecure, they’re a turn off, and make it difficult for me to not be on guard.

    I was merely offering a hypothesis–that because it’s easier to communicate when someone isn’t trying to get you into bed, that you may “connect” with that person more quickly or easily. I was thinking aloud, not offering some condemnation of all single men like the condemnation you levied against me.

    And, btw? I’d bet it’s just as off putting to single men when single woman pile it on too quick, too fast and too perfect. Ever see a gal pretending to be Ms. Perfect Girlfriend on Date #2?

  16. late comment, but here it is,

    1. as a single woman who gets hit on by a lot of people in relationships, I would prefer a person who had “permission” from his/her partner. And I might be interested in a 3-some. I do not want to steal anyone’s mate, or hurt another person.

    1.a. if the person is really hot, though, all bets are off. just being honest.

    2. I flirt a lot and most of the time that does not equate to “I want to have sex”. It just means I am friendly and flirtatious by nature. If someone responds by upping the ante I will usually clarify that I am only flirting and not interested (unless of course I am).

    3. as someone who has had sex with coworkers in the past, it often turns out bad. really bad. same with neighbors.

    4. if I come on to someone (more than flirting) and they aren’t into it, its up to me to be *graceful* about being rejected!

    5. I use a lot of swear words and epithets nowadays and I like it. but if I am told it is offensive, I stop. and I try to only do it around people I am good friends with who know me well and can accurately interpret the context and my intentions.

    6. Is there an acceptable epithet that everyone will agree on when we feel the need to name call?

    7. girls bathrooms are really gross too. I dont understand why they pee all over the seat! I think we should all of unisex turkish toilets.

    thanks, I really enjoy the column and the comments!!!!

  17. Dan, you fucking FAG, way to stick up for slurs. It’s always wrong unless you’re bashing the differently abled, in which case its perfectly okay. Your papers could use a boycott.

  18. @51 My 23 year-old sister is retarded. I don’t call her a retard, but I do tell people she’s retarded (her disability is very rare – less than 1 in a million live births – it has a long, confusing name that doesn’t mean much to many people). She’s not particularly bright, but she’s not deluded either (she has the mental age of an 8 year-old). She understands that that she has an intellectual disability, that one way to describe this is “retarded”, and that when people refer to someone as a retard it generally isn’t a compliment. There’s no coaching that’s gone on there. My sister is perhaps not outraged when she hears “retard” or “retarded” used in a derogatory way, but she is saddened. It is also true that she has been called “retarded” in a derogatory, if accurate, way. I don’t think it’s unfair to ask/demand that people refrain from using “retard” as a slur.

  22. There is another reason many women want nothing to do with open men. Several other actually.

    1) They do not want to be sexual entertainment for the couple. Her and him having a “thing” is one thing. Him going home and talking about their sex life to his W, quite another. Not all couples do this. How does she know which he is?

    2) In relation to 1, it drives home that the affair is All About Sex. See it’s much more tasteful for some women when it’s just something that happened and she can believe she’s so special and fantastic my god he’s willing to break vows for her.

    3) There is a more than common strange subset of people who believe if shit happens in your marriage and you cheat, well, shit happens and let’s talk about it and it’s understandable, but being open is just tacky and dirty and what kind of weirdo does THAT? I have heard many women say they don’t want open men because they want to find another man who has unmet needs, not just be with a guy who is interested in having lots of sex with lots of different women.

    4) They assume any guy who is open is a complete and total male slut. Many, in fact I would say most, expect the affair to be a side/parallel relationship, not one of many. Yeah I don’t get that either but come on how often does Dan get letters where someone says “OMG the CPOS I am screwing became a CPOS on ME too can you BELIEVE IT?!”

    5) In relation to 4, if she’s married, she often wants someone with as much to lose as she does. If the open dude’s wife finds out, it’s no BFD, leading to far less reason for him to be discreet in her thinking.

    6) Most women really do not like confirmation of their second place status. Nothing confirms second place better than “my wife is so completely non threatened by you she doesn’t care if we screw, that’s how unimportant you are.”

    7) If she’s had prior experience with open relationships, and it didn’t go well, she may prefer cheating. There are a subset of people who tried open or DADT and found it WAY too much drama negotiating this and that and the other and dealing with so and so’s issues and so and so’s feelings and BLAH in the end keeping everything nice neat and quiet was much more preferable. I could see someone being worried that “oh great so we can fuck but the second wifey says no I’m gone, fabulous, fuck that I’ll find someone who chooses on their own merits thanks.”

    But most of the time it’s 1.

    Are these assumptions correct? For all open situations? Not always. Just explaining it’s NOT about the conquest or keeping one to themselves or anything like that necessarily.

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