My husband was 28 when we met and a virgin. When we started having sex, he opened up about being “different.” He wanted to wear panties and wanted me to make fun of his tiny penis. Didn’t love the stuff, but whatever. Now it’s a thousand times worse. He goes to Victoria’s Secret and tells the salesgirls he is being punished by his wife for wearing her panties and that I am “forcing him” to go buy some of his own. He told me he could see our neighbor undressing, so he tried to contact her to see if she wanted to humiliate him while he was dressed as a woman. And he recently “confessed” to a female coworker that he had a deep, dark secret he wanted to tell her. I confronted him, and he said he was going to tell her about me “forcing him” to wear panties and ask if she wanted to see his tiny penis!
He sees nothing wrong with this behavior. I feel like he is a fucking asshole and a pervert who is violating me, our marriage, and other women. I have children with this dude! What the hell do I do?!?
My Husband Is Out
Here’s what the hell you do, MHIO: You make a credible threat to divorce your husband—serve him with actual divorce papers—then you set conditions for suspending divorce proceedings. No more trips to Victoria’s Secret, no more stalking the neighbors, no more inappropriate confessions to coworkers. And he begins seeing a sex-positive therapist immediately.
The shit he’s into—humiliation, “forced” feminization, etc.—can be enjoyed with consenting partners, i.e., women who are either into it or willing to fake it for a reasonable fee. He has no right to drag his coworkers, neighbors, salesgirls, and other innocent bystanders into these extreme humiliation scenarios. And a good, sex-positive therapist—someone who won’t be shocked by your husband’s kinks—may be able to help your husband see that he isn’t being humiliated by these women. He’s humiliating these women—and without their consent.
And that’s not okay.
Your husband is out of control—I’m sure I don’t have to tell you that—and sooner or later he’s going to get his asshole ass arrested. Stalking and sexually harassing women are actual crimes—crimes your loving husband has been so considerate as to implicate you in, crimes that could have a hugely negative impact on the lives of your children. So threaten to divorce him, MHIO, and if that doesn’t inspire him to get help and get a grip, make good on that threat.
My girlfriend of six months found it “awkward” when I used lubricant from a half-full bottle. A half-full bottle “hinted at past relationships.” To me, this was no more awkward than our using condoms from a half-full box—which did not bother her. But she sees condoms as individually wrapped, single-use items, unlike a bottle of lubricant. Was I in the wrong for failing to purchase a new bottle of lube?
Lubrication Etiquette, S’il Vous Plaît
I’m tempted to break into your apartment, LESVP, spike your lube with Frank’s RedHot sauce and open a live feed of the oil pouring into the Gulf of Mexico on both your laptops, because you two need something real to worry about. But as I don’t know where you live: Personal lubricants are expensive. If the girlfriend believes a fresh bottle should be cracked open each and every time she gets with a new partner, then she should carry a case in the trunk of her car. And as a general note: Lube also comes in small, single-ass-serving packets—just like ketchup and mustard and condoms—and anyone worried about half-empty bottles of pubic-hair-befrazzled lube is free to invest in a box.
I have a dilemma: My ex wants me to replace his mattress because I ejaculated on it. Apparently, there was an “unbearable” smell that came about recently due to the heat and humidity where he now lives.
I am not sure that this “stench” is entirely or at all mine. My ex has a cat that peed on items of furniture in the past, for starters, and no other lovers have ever complained about any smell. I also warned my ex that I, a female, was capable of ejaculation. There was an opportunity to grab a towel, but my ex did not stop. In fact, my ex caused me to ejaculate countless times. This ex now lives in a different city on the other side of the country, but we have friends in common.
Should I pay for the replacement mattress? I might have been open to paying half, but the last time we talked, my ex was so negative that I don’t feel any obligation at all.
Should I Soak It Up
I don’t want you to pay for your ex’s new mattress—and I’ll bet your ex doesn’t want you to pay for his new mattress, either.
What’s really going on here, SISIU, is this: Your ex’s out-of-the-blue request for mattress reparations is an attempt on his part, conscious or not, to sever communications with you. He’s picking a fight, one he knows he’s likely to lose (because this is sopping-wet bullshit), so that he’ll have an excuse to stop speaking to you and an excuse to slag you off to your mutual friends.
And even if your ranky, stanky, janky lady spunk ruined your ex’s old mattress, SISIU, you would still not be obligated to replace it. When an adult invites another adult into his bed, he is or should be aware that sexual activity frequently leads to stained sheets and pillowcases, soaked and/or stained mattresses, and, every once in a great while/time, completely and thoroughly destroyed bed frames. A person who is unwilling to eat those losses should fuck on the floor, fuck outside, or fuck at his partner’s place.
Seeing as your ex should have been aware of the general risk sexual activity posed to his mattress, and seeing as you acquainted him with the specific risks you posed to his mattress, the responsibility and the liability are entirely his. So fuck him.
While we’re on the subject of lady ejaculators: Lots of folks wrote in with suggestions for WET, the woman in last week’s column who, like SISIU here, routinely soaked the bed when she came. While I suggested a wrestling mat and towels, numerous readers wrote in to plug the Fascinator Throe.
“It’s a large, double-sided blanket,” wrote one Savage Love reader. “It’s faux fur on one side, satin on the other, with a waterproof barrier in the middle. It comes in lots of colors and costs around $90. It goes anywhere you want to fuck, and it’s easy to clean. This thing saved my bed, and it’s sexier than a wrestling mat.”
Given a choice between a fake-fur bedspread and a genuine wrestling mat, I’d go with the mat—and the wrestler—every time. But lady ejaculators who prefer machine-washable faux fur can check out Fascinator Throes—”the moisture-proof playscape for sex”—at
www.liberator.com.
The Savage Love iPhone app is now available on the iTunes store.
MHIO’s husband has got to be one of the most inconsiderate, selfish people I’ve read about here.
You two don’t just need a sex-positive therapist (although that sounds like a good idea), he needs to be made to understand how abusive his behavior is to all his victims.
How is this any different than a guy exposing himself in public?
Just don’t mistake the lube packet for a ketchup packet when you’re making burgers then?
I would think a half-full bottle hinted at masturbation. But she might have a valid concern, if you opened the bottle more than 6 months ago there may be some bacterial growth in it, especially if it doesn’t have a pump dispenser. It is advisable to replace your moisturizers 6 months after you open the bottle – I can’t see why this would be different for lubricants.
MHIO: ya got problems, buddy.
LESVP: Your girl should be happy enough that lube was on hand. What does she want? A DNA test checking for finger prints on the half-filled lube bottle? What neuroses! I hope he opted to mount her dry, just to fix her wagon.
The mattress guy: Sneak into the ex’s house and go and dumb a porn shoot’s worth of seed all over his mattress. He’ll like that.
Sometimes I wonder what the ratio of actual bullshit is to non-fiction with regards to these submitted letters. This week? I say about 65/35..
For MHIO, your advice is dead on- the hard line is the only thing these types understand. I wish her all the luck in the world because that is a truly sucky position to be in.
@3: Even if if a half-full bottle of lube “hinted at masturbation,” so what?
Is LSVP supposed to have had NO previous sexual experience before her/his current girlfriend? Maybe the gf thinks that LSVP’s ex (or exes) dipped their genitals into the lube?
Whatever. She needs to get perspective. Maybe LSVP should show her this week’s column and when she reads the letter from MHIO she will understand what a real relationship/sex problem is.
MHIO’s husband is setting himself up for a seuxal harassment suit.
These letters the best Dan could do?
If we had an appetite for whining by self-indulgent wankers, we’d turn to Fox News or a.m. radio.
Not much “savage” or “love” in these replies.
Where has the passion gone, Dan? For the love of God, where’s the passion?
If you take the time and make sure the woman is ready, lube is unnecessary.
@ 6
Nothing, I was pointing at the obvious flaw in her reasoning. Which her boyfriend should have done in the first place, and then he wouldn’t have had to write to Dan. I doubt very much that she would object to his masturbation.
@7 or an ass kickin’
@9 not always
Amos, whatever, mate. I’m one of those ladies for whom lube is very necessary, even after taking plenty of time. Some of us just don’t get that wet, no matter what we do.
Besides, it’s better for titty-fucking than lotion, tastes better when you’re going down, and generally makes the whole experience more fun.
@9 (Amos101)
Dude, speak for yourself. If the woman is having anal sex? or fisting? or post-menopausal? or simply doesn’t secrete very much? Lube is extremely damn useful.
I can exhale: Dan finally revealed that WET is a woman! Sorry, but last week we had no way of knowing the gender of said moist meshuggeneh.
And speaking of needed info, I think it would help readers to know how long MHIO & her husband have been married, how many kids, and what the kids’ ages are. Well, it would help the shrink, anyway.
@9: Some women just have problems with lubrication. the same way that some guys have erectile issues. Lube is a godsend when she’s horny and frustrated.
The first one, the Victoria’s Secret married guy, et. al: my gut+vibe tells me that this one is a bunch of malarkey lol 🙂 . It’s well-written, has several entertaining diversions that make for great reading, but there’s too many details and the like.. Overqualification. But then, who was it that said to never let the truth get in the way of a good story? As soon as I got to the part about the neighbor, I knew it was a crock, but a good one 😉 .
The lube bottle crisis: unless there was some unappetizing residue outside of the bottle (i.e. congealed lubricant that has aged).. I get her point about the sanitary conditions of the bottle being halfway, but the image I have in my head right now for the next time is the boyfriend tearing open a new box of KY Easy Glide and holding it behind a ribbon (like at a supermarket opening) so the lovely neuroses-plagued lady can have the comforts of the ribbon-cutting ceremony to appease her inner OCDs.
“Apparently, there was an “unbearable” smell that came about recently due to the heat and humidity where he now lives.”
That’s what’s going on, and the guy is trying to finagle a new mattress out of the deal.
I think your advice to MHIO is a little bit off. Certainly he needs to see a therapist and be warned of the real world legal dangers of what he’s doing. But I think he’s acting out because he wants a stronger FemDom hand. No need to threaten divorce–give him a good caning instead. He’s wanting discipline, otherwise he wouldn’t be telling the wife in the first place of his escapades.
She might want to check out Elise Sutton for tips on getting a man like this to behave perfectly. Take advantage of the situation and take control.
@9: Um, no. Apart from all points already made, not every woman *wants* to “take the time” and can be “ready” far before her body seems to be.
Lube is awesome.
@9 “If you take the time and make sure the woman is ready, lube is unnecessary.”
I call bullshit guy stroking his own ego by bragging about his sexual prowess, for a number of reasons:
1) Anal. You need lube for that regardless of how ready he gets you. And no, putting vaginal juices on your bum won’t work.
2) Lube can be useful in the process of getting her ready in the first place.
3) Natural juices dry out much more quickly than artificial lube, so if you’re more than a minute man, you’ll need to re-wet even if you got her moist on her own in the first place.
4) The more frequently a woman has sex, the more her natural sexual juices will run out, and the harder it will be to make her drip every time. I’d only get wet enough for sex if it had been days since I last had sex, and I usually fuck and/or masturbate several times a day. Even then, see #3; I’d still have run dry from the heat and friction of thrusting 2 minutes in.
@14: You know what’s weird? If you go back to the letter originally posted on Slog, it says “I, as a female.” Was that added later?
@9 OH MY GOD YOU NO IT’S NOT. That’s the kind of thinking that made me think I was broken for years when I first started having sex. Some women need lots of lube, every time, no how turned on they are. News flash: people are different.
@19 Interesting; using the Femdom angle to get the husband to act right.
“I order you to stop telling sales ladies about our sex life!”
Could very well work.
@23 good point, not only does this type of thinking lead to many chaffed women, it also leads to feelings of inadequacy on the parts of both women and their partners.
You know, it just occurred to me that the naughty husband was a 28-year-old virgin. No wonder he’s got issues properly expressing his sexuality! You know how adolescent boys can be obnoxious and unsubtle with their sexuality? He’s in the mindset of an adolescent boy; he’s been repressed for so long that his hormones are raging like a teenager. XP
@19, You make the husband sound like an animal. I think MHIO signed up to be a wife, not a lion tamer. However submissive he is, he needs to control himself and he’s not. A strong submissive urge doesn’t entitle him to go out and harass people, especially using his wife as an unwitting accomplice.
@7: I think you’re missing the point. He’s well on the path toward criminal prosecution.
I think 19 is onto something. My experience with bottoms is many of them want to be in charge. Wife needs to show him who is boss.
Gloria (#22): Yes, it must have been added later, cuz “I as a female” did not show up in the online column last week, and I commented that both males & females could, uh, squirt. But Dan frequently edits these letters anyway.
Lube is just *kinder*. The worst is being in the midst of a good time and you have to stop for a sec to re-moisturize.. A good lube is just the way to go, so you can let the rest happen without being unnecessarily interrupted.
@Marrena:
Bullshit. Why should MHIO reward her husband for sexually harassing neighbors/coworkers/random sales clerks by indulging his kinks? (After all, she made it pretty clear that she doesn’t get off on humiliating him or “forcibly” feminizing him.) MHIO’s husband already seems to think that he’s living in a Fem-Dom porn fantasy; MHIO shouldn’t do anything to reinforce this delusion.
Like Dan said, what MHIO’s husband needs is a firm reintroduction to reality — and here in reality, sexual harassment is generally handled with legal action, not kinky “punishments.” If this douchebag continues exposing himself to random women, he’s going to end up standing in front of a court bench, not a spanking bench. The sooner he realizes this, the better for everybody involved.
@ 28: The wife needs to dress him in a straightjacket, replete with a garter belt from Victoria’s Secret wrapped around his eyes so he can’t find another woman to confide in before he gets to the therapist!
@9: That’s ridiculous! I’m rather young and extremely tight. As in, even while masturbating I can only fit two fingers inside me, and that’s a big stretch. When I’m with my guy, who has a pretty thick girth too, we have sex often enough that I’m actually stretched out–as in twice a day almost every day–and that’s necessary! But the first time back it ALWAYS hurts, no matter how turned on I am, unless we use tons of lube.
@31: Thank you.
This isn’t a “how can I make my husband’s kink suit my interests better” problem; this man is sexually harassing women. He’s forcing unwanted (and probably extremely distasteful) sexual TMI on women who never intended to be involved in his humiliation-play.
And he’s forcing his wife by proxy to harass these women as well.
This isn’t a top or bottom thing or a dom/sub thing. It’s creepy, unethical, and very probably illegal behavior. Let’s not theorize about what “most” secretly dominant subs really want.
The husband needs to talk to a therapist.
The wife needs to talk to a lawyer.
@19, he’s “acting out” by sexually harassing other women. Maybe he “needs” a stronger femdom role in his life, but that’s actually secondary. Someone who approaches strange women (like hapless Victoria’s Secret employees) without prompting in a sexual manner has a problem, period. He obviously does not have a proper understanding of boundaries or he would realize how skin-crawlingly creepy it is to have some weirdo tell you about his sexual kinks out of the blue (and plan on including you in them).
He needs therapy, and if he refuses therapy and does not change his behavior, MHIO needs to divorce him. It will be tough on the kids, but not as tough as having daddy registered as a sexual offender will be.
#9
That is the most ignorant bullshit I’ve ever heard. Not every woman produces an adequate amount of lubricant. Some are born not producing enough, and some are on medications that dry them out. Some are going through hormonal issues.
Lubrication sometimes has nothing to do with arousal.
Yes, yes, yes–I did say he needs therapy, and he needs to understand what he is doing is not only wrong but illegal–I said that. But if the goal is getting him to change his behavior, threatening divorce will not work as well as very firm discipline, in my opinion. I won’t say experience because I’m a newbie domme, but from hearing from other dommes, this woman could get him to do just about anything and I mean anything if she handles it right. If she’s not into it, send him to a pro domme with very specific instructions. He’s desperately wanting female control–I’m relatively sure it will completely stop this behavior if done right, and the wife can also benefit from having a very clean house, lots of pampering, and romantic, loving attention from her husband. And anything else she wants. She just has to reach out her hand and take it.
@ 33: You sound like a good time.. (that’s a compliment incidentally).
I am putting in a call to a higher authority–Dan must know lots of Dommes, both pro and lifestyle. He should ask them what they think of MHIO’s situation, if her husband would respond if she took matters in hand lion tamer style.
Amos…I would have agreed with you (as a woman) then I read all the comments from other woman who do in fact need lube…and thus I stand corrected.
However, I am very much in the camp of “wet” women. I never need lube (rather dislike it on me to be honest) and the only reason my husband and I keep a bottle, is for when he wants a slippery hand-job.
When I am excited, I get wet. It’s as simple as ABC for me. In my husband’s words, I am the juciest person he has ever been with. It’s never been any other way, so it’s hard to fathom being excited BUT not wet!
I kinda feel bad for women who don’t easily/naturally get wet…I know I shouldn’t…It’s hardly a disability…but au natural wetness is first things first oh so convenient…and I must say very flattering to the person who is able to induce it.
Just my two cents…what do I know :-/
What are the possibilities that the cross-dressing hysterical dude is on some sort of narcotic stimulant while this is all going on? The propensity for confessing his issues to, indeed, innocent women; innocent people with such implied velocity.. That guy’s on something. Maybe meth? Eh, probably his old lady’s diet pills he found past expiration. Must enhance the buzz. Seriously though? That’s one horrifying scenario. His wife can maybe one-up him and buy him one of those S & M mouthpieces for his mouth. A chastity belt for his mouth! Then she can just say he had his jaws wired shut for surgical reasons, and that he’s currently in remission for being a terminal asshole lol.
If I were at work and some guy from the next cubicle over came up and started telling me about h is kinks, I’d freak the hell out. Not because kinks are bad but because that is shit I do not want to know about random aquaintances! If I worked at VS I’d be more expecting of some sexual talk (it’s a lingerie store, after all) but details and “she’s forcing me because I wore hers” crap is over and above what’s appropriate even in an area surrounded by crotchless panties and push up bras. This guy needs to realize that while he’s had days/weeks/months to prepare himself for the intimacy these statements will open up, the people he blurts it out to haven’t and they are neither prepared nor willing to be a part of it. For once the conservatives are right. I don’t care what you do in your bedroom but leave me out of it and keep it to yourself!
Marrena @19, You are projecting your fantasies without reading the letter.
@ 42. That’s spot on. It’s one thing to feel the potential to blurt stuff out like that.. No self-restraint or boundaries for anyone else recognized, or respected. Depending on who it is, if anyone just started blabbering on to me about their sexual proclivities, it would prolly freak me out wondering as to whether or not the person revealing their innermost kinks to me is trying to get it on with me, and taking the loudest most tasteless road to get there.. This VS guy sounds like every day he wakes up shot out of a cannon wearing pink, silky lingerie as he accosts all and one asunder about why he’s being victimized or something.. Do they sell muzzles there at VS somewhere in the back?
@ 43: Mine is for MHIO to wear a gagball/bondage mask with a burkha and shades on his eyes, with, of course, the straightjacket on him too. Then we could go shopping together! That’s my fantasy lol.
@9
Like the others have said, you’re just plain old wrong.
Even aside from “issues” – hormonal imbalances, menopause, doesn’t make much lube on her own, etc., for a lot of “normal” women how much lube is naturally produced can vary throughout her cycle.
So on Monday you’re a rockstar, getting her ready with all your, oh so expert moves, but by later that week or the next week it might be a new game entirely.
Overall the answer to MIHO’s letter was great, but here are my two cents.
MIHO absolutely needs to do whatever it takes to make sure that the kids will not be hurt by her husband’s antics.
I also agree that all the cards should be laid down on the table; and that the husband should be told to cease and desist his antics yesterday and that he see a shrink.; otherwise 1) he will be in divorce court and 2) whatever it takes will be done to protect the children from his outrageous behavior with others.
MIHO should also be prepared to divorce him, because that is probably what would happen. She also will (sadly) have to have an idea of how to explain it to the kids when these antics get him in civil or criminal hot water.
If he was shopping at VS he was probably in subspace. So yes, he wasn’t himself. That is absolutely NO EXCUSE for his illegal behavior.
I am not saying what he did is right, I’m just saying I’m pretty sure it can be stopped cold with the right response. I’ve read the letter, I am not projecting fantasies.
Marrena, his wife doesn’t particular enjoy catering to that aspect of his sexuality. That’s where your projection comes in.
I realize that you would see this as a terrific opportunity, but for some women being a domme would just be a chore.
@48, you may not be projecting your fantasies, but you seem to be projecting your attitude towards this kind of play. You are a domme; you enjoy imposing the sort of discipline that you believe MIHO’s husband needs. Unfortunately, she is not and she does not: she describes her reaction to his fantasies as “Didn’t love the stuff, but whatever.” She was GGG and indulged him, but his kink is not her kink.
Your suggestion seems to be that she should make his kink her kink, that in response to his inability to set and enforce his own boundaries she should give him more of what he wants, even though she does not enjoy it herself. She shouldn’t have to become something she is not, sexually – a domme – in order to get her husband to stop his inappropriate behaviour.
MHIO’s husband’s behavior isn’t submissive at all. It’s actually incredibly sexually presumptuous and aggressive upon these uninvolved women. It doesn’t sound like subspace, it sounds like sexual harassment.
Yes, I am suggesting that she be more GGG, because if she opens up to it and takes full advantage–getting exactly the behavior she desires from her husband–she might find she enjoys it more than she would expect.
If she can’t go there and explore her own domme inclinations and she’s deadset against sending him off to a pro to be disciplined and trained to be the sort of husband she desires, then she shouldn’t just threaten divorce, she should simply divorce him. That sort of kink doesn’t go away. If he isn’t humiliated enough at home or by a pro, he will continue to act this way no matter what she threatens. Best to get out as quickly as possible.
My two cents. Again, I am a newbie domme so I may be off base, I think Dan should check with someone with more experience with FemDom. But I think I’m correct.
The problem is, @52, this is rewarding him for his behavior. His behavior can’t really be handled as part of play. It’s not acceptable in the real world, it’s not a problem about how she doesn’t want to be kinky enough for him. It’s a problem that he’s sexually harassing uninvolved women, not that he wants to go see a pro domme.
@ MHIO… i say she should just divorce the shithead, since he has a tiny cock. What is there left of the relationship? He has already embarrassed himself, her, and the kids. It doesn’t sound at all like he’s a sub. It sounds like he is a sexual pervert headed for incarceration.
@ 33 and 40, i concur as i’m tight but i do get very wet at even one thought of sex, however, lube is sometimes necessary due to cock girth and frequency. More often though, i’ve used lube to give a lightening-speed hand job than for anything else 😉
@52, you’re saying that she needs to play his fucking pathetic game. This man is a husband and a father, but all he seems to care about is his dick. Harassing random women? Dragging co-workers into his sex play? And it’s his WIFE’S job to indulge him so that he’ll stop? Sorry, lady, but that’s fucked up.
He’s not merely being submissive; he’s being an asshole and a criminal. That means she has no obligation whatsoever to be “more GGG,” as a) she doesn’t want to, and b) that would simply be rewarding him for this abuse.
Maybe MHINO can divorce the bastard and Marrena can marry him and put up with his bullshit. Then everybody’s happy.
“half-empty bottles of pubic-hair-befrazzled lube”… Dan, you crack me up!
LOL @56.
I think that Marrena will learn. If she spends much time in the BDSM world, she’ll learn all about guys like MHINO’s husband. She’ll learn the difference between passive-aggressiveness and kink.
The irony is that guys like MHINO’s husband see women as nothing but sex objects, even while they proclaim the superiority of women. This guy doesn’t care whether the women he approaches are into kink, married, or even heterosexual… he gets his rocks off by shocking and embarrassing them. He’s much like a flasher or a rapist, but even more cowardly.
I think, Marrena, that everyone’s jumping on you for one reason: this guy needs a severe jolt to send him back to reality, not to further delve into the world of kink. The guy seems to think that any and everyone is part of his sexual game, he needs a sharp shock of the real-life variety. His wife really should serve him with divorce papers before the creepy fucker gets himself arrested. Being MORE GGG will only make things worse.
Half full bottle of lubricant? And she’s
“uncomfortable”? Gimme a break…
“He’s not merely being submissive; he’s being an asshole and a criminal. That means she has no obligation whatsoever to be “more GGG,” as a) she doesn’t want to, and b) that would simply be rewarding him for this abuse.”
Exactly what I was going to say.
Disciplining a guy 24/7 is grueling work – especially with a guy like this who seems to thrive on pushing boundaries and being punished (I’m not sure our commenter Marrena realizes just how exhausting it can be!). MHIO already has kids. She doesn’t need or want another one.
…Also, if her husband can’t use his words and tell MHIO that he needs a firmer hand, he doesn’t deserve to get one. Hinting is for chumps – and being a passive-aggressive sexually harrassing douchebag is for DIVORCED GUYS who aren’t allowed to see their kids anymore.
MHIO is in need of a lot of advice. Mine is that once you’re old enough to be married or have children it’s time to stop using the term “dude” unless you’re referring to a kind of ranch.
Just to be clear–in no way am I saying she should “put up with his bullshit.” From what she describes he gets off on humiliation, not pain. If she inflicts severe pain on him to punish him for that sort of thing, I think it would serve as much more of a reality jolt than being served with divorce papers.
He’s so far in the pink fog that he thinks his actions are tolerable–he probably thinks that there are a lot of women out there who are into what he’s into, when the reality is more like 300 to 1. So the threat of divorce might be less of a deterrent than you’d think.
A once a week caning doesn’t take all THAT much effort, and if he is forced to do all the housework she will have more leisure time anyhow.
I’m new to the BDSM world but rather familiar with the crossdressing world. Of course most crossdressers are fine and decent individuals, but I’ve come across his ilk on occasion–men like that can get their heads so far up their asses that they really do lose touch with how the real world functions.
LESVP’s gal is as dumb as they come. Doesn’t she use lube to masturbate? Doesn’t she realize other people do?
Oh, and by the way: besides being postmenopausal, on the business end of a fist, or getting it up the ass, another reason a woman might need lube is if she has smoked pot. Know how pot causes cotton mouth? Well, take it from me, it causes cotton cunt, too. Actually, it dries up a lot of body parts.
He sounds like an asshole who basically keeps talking to people about his sexual kink, when his listeners gave no indication they wanted to hear it, just so he can get off.
It isn’t his kink that’s in the wrong here, his kink is cool with me, but it sounds like he’s being a stupid ass.
Marrena, you yourself said that “From what she describes he gets off on humiliation, not pain.” Ten you suggest she cane him to, what, keep him in line? Would you recommend beating children as an effective method of discipline, as well? And I’m going to assume he has some sort of feelings for, if not his wife, his children and their stability, so yeah, the threat of a divorce might be what he needs. You keep saying you’re new to BDSM, but are you that new to human relationships?
Of course I’m not recommending caning children.
You say that the threat of divorce would sink in because he’s concerned about the stability of his children and wife yet he’s offering to show his penis to coworkers–and telling his wife all about it. Does he sound like he’s concerned about the stability of his marriage and family?
Right on Amos, #9.
Dan, enjoyed the letters this week. Informational and bitchy – yahoo
Marijuana causes cotton crotch. Too funny.
MHIO’s husband is so divorced from reality, so completely lacking in impulse control, I’m wondering if maybe something more serious is affecting his behaviour. Like a brain tumor.
Marrena,
If someone is not into physical pain and you cane him, that’s called abuse. Not BDSM. The solution to being mentally abused by this guy is not to retaliate with physical abuse.
The thing about MHIO’s husband is that while we think he’s creepy and being a total douche with his little kink, he probably doesn’t care because by sharing his kink verbally with others, he’s getting enough of a jolt from saying it out loud to unwilling people. I bet you the look on the faces of the women when he says “Hey, I’m into wearing ladies underwear, and I have a tiny pecker!” is more than enough for him.
She needs to DTMFA before they both end up smeared across the pages of the local news.
Secondly, I’m on BCP and where I used to be able to attain g-spot gushers, I can barely moisten my underwear now. If it wasn’t for lube, I’d have the worst case of cocksucker’s cramp this side of Monica Lewinsky.
No, it doesn’t. Caning him isn’t going to make him give a shit. Telling him you’re leaving and taking the kids with you might. He obviously doesn’t see how serious this is, and shit like this calls for grand measures – like giving him warning that he stops the psycho bullshit or he never sees his kids again. And if he’s so unstable that he truly doesn’t care about his wife or family, why would you want her to bend to his unreasonable behavior? She needs to get the fuck out. No one deserves to be in a marriage with a selfish asshole.
@ 16,
Ummm, I used to work for a store that sold a lot of discount underwear. Factory seconds, discontinued lines, over stock, etc etc. It was very popular with men who wore ladies undies. Very popular. Not only did men like MHIO’s husband show up, but so did others who were a lot worse.
I think Marrena’s advice about caning would be fine if this was a standard BDSM relationship, where a “punishment” would be part of a dynamic.
However, this is not a normal situation. MHIO’s husband is crazy and engaging in criminal behavior. You can’t spank away that kind of pathology. The odds that therapy or medication will work are slim, but they might be worth a try.
Dan’s advice is solid, and it’s really the only option.
Also, natural lubrication varies with how well hydrated you are. If you’ve eaten Chinese food the day before, it’s been really hot outside, just didn’t get anything to drink at lunch, pretty much anything will dry you out, and it’s not something you can fix without 32 oz of h2o and an hour’s wait. If you are dehydrated enough your mouth and eyes will dry out in order to reroute all moisture to your cunt though! ( I would suspect semen volume would be affected by this too).
He sounds like an asshole who basically keeps talking to people about his sexual kink, when his listeners gave no indication they wanted to hear it, just so he can get off.
It isn’t his kink that’s in the wrong here, his kink is cool with me, but it sounds like he’s being a stupid ass.
@ MHIO and after reading others’ posts, i feel i have to say more about this guy who is pushing his sexuality onto unsuspecting people… others have mentioned boundaries, perversions, etc… i totally agree with them, and it brought to mind an incident decades ago with an in-law who, at a family gathering, quietly showed his dirty deck of cards around. He got his jollies out of the shocked look on our faces, i’m sure. He showed a flagrant lack of respect and obviously had boundary issues.
No surprise that he was arrested a few months later for sexual assault on a minor – his own step-daughter (my niece).
MIHO’s husband is cut of the same cloth, and is but a few steps away from the jail cell, i’m sure.
Wow, Marrena, did you not read MHIO’s letter? This isn’t about his kink. Are you suggesting she actually reward him for being a boundary-less jerk?
No. Nuh-uh. No way.
‘Dirty deck of cards’…I spent a few seconds trying to figure out what that was a euphemism for. Thanks for the laugh!
MIHO doesn’t need to threaten divorce, she needs to get a divorce. She is not engaged in a realationship that she enjoys or that meets her sexual needs. She is stuck ina marrriage with someone who she regards as an “asshole and a pervert” who is committing real crimes of sexual harrassment against many other women.
This asshole, who is really no different than the asshole who whips out his dick in a public place, will get arrested and, quite possibly labeled as a sex offender. She has children and his behavior will, at some point alert CPS. She could very well lose her children, at least to temporary foster care, because of her asshole husband.
Divorce the motherfucker already MIHO. He is out of control. You can’t stand him, and especially because his creepy lies include you, he is a legal danger to you and your children.
He can see a therapist any time he wants, but he won’t. He thinks that what he does is just fine. That is not your problem.
LESVP says his girlfriend is uncomfortable due to a half full bottle of lube “hinting at other relationships”.
This could mean she’s the jealous type or, as someone else commented, more of a germophobe. Let’s consider where his or some other partners hands/fingers might have already been when they decide to grab the bottle to re-lube (not to mention falling on the floor). This is yucky to me and I am not a germophobe.
Many eye drops are now sold in individual vials – it takes very little to contaminate containers and the contents. And that’s from eyes not pubic areas.
So wiping down the outside isn’t enough. If the guy likes this woman, rather than give her grief he ought to accommodate her fastidiousness and get those individual lube vials.
If LR didn’t misunderstand and girlfriend really is just resentful of previous partners, well, argument still holds.
In fact, he’s got a great opportunity here to get her very GGG: gift wrap a box of vials along with some sexy lingerie.
MHIO’s husband sounds a lot like a man I had to deal with as a sales girl at Victoria’s Secret (not the same guy, since this one was single and liked to tell–and in the dressing rooms, “accidentally” show–us how big his cock was. He was about the skeeziest person I’ve encountered (and I’ve worked retail for many years now), and the thought of him today still makes my skin crawl. Every girl he harassed felt awkward, uncomfortable, and violated. It feels like a mild sex crime, and we all became unwilling participants of his foreplay. Seriously, slap the motherfucker upside the head with a nice legal proceeding–if not for yourself, then for the girls he’s victimizing.
It’s not rape, but damn if we didn’t feel violated.
If an ex of any sort leaves their “mark” on your mattress, hell hide under some sheets but you gotta venerate that stuff. It means you lived, at one point in your life.
@21: “Anal. You need lube for that regardless of how ready he gets you. And no, putting vaginal juices on your bum won’t work.”
For years I thought that was true, and I never had anal sex without using tons of extra lube. But since then, I’ve known (and “known”) a couple women who could make anal work with just their vaginal juices for lubrication (plus whatever saliva was left over from oral sex). One girl in particular could do it pretty much at will: when she was ready, she’d just reach down and move me from one place to the other.
Now in every case it was the woman’s idea, not mine. And I don’t advocate that anyone else do this, especially if they’re not experienced and enthusiastic anal sex fans. But if she moves me from her pussy to her ass, of her own volition and with no hint of pain or discomfort, who am I to argue?
She certainly seemed to like it just fine, to say the least, and truth be told I thought it was pretty hot too. We were already having anal a few times a week, so it took her almost no time to relax enough to admit my cock. Sometimes it almost seemed like her ass got a little bit wet on its own (the mythical “self-lubricating anus”), which I’ve heard can happen if a person has anal sex on a regular basis though I have no idea if that’s actually true.
Ah, the memories…
I hate to say it, but I am totally on board with the girlfriend wanting a new bottle of lube. For me it has nothing to do with past girlfriends or masturbation– a half empty bottle of lube that I did not empty just skeeves me out. It’s the same reason I throw away all the leftover chinese in the fridge.
I agree with Dan- bring your own fucking lube. Being a considerate clean freak means traveling with your own product!
Holy SHIT, Batman! And I thought MY ex was bad! MHIO, DTMFA!
@32: Good idea! I second that!
Oh for fuck’s sake–I’m not condoning the man’s behavior. For a sex board this place is hilariously moralistic. I don’t give a shit whether caning him is “rewarding” him or not. It wouldn’t be abuse if he enjoys humiliation and female domination–it would just be very unpleasant for him–a kind of humiliation he would want to avoid in the future. I’m just being realistic and pragmatic. Crossdressers like this are a type, as both #76 and #85 pointed out. Fortunately a rare type, but a type. If he were rational enough to respond to the threat of divorce, he would be rational enough to act like this on the sly and NOT TELL HIS WIFE. But he’s beyond that point–he’s not only getting off on doing what he’s doing, he’s getting off on telling his wife about it.
Occasionally Dan gives advice to good pedophiles, pedophiles who don’t act on their urges, on how to control their kink by having lots of roleplay with young-looking sex partners, always making sure that one has a sex partner, etc. All I’m saying is to take a similar approach with this type of kink. His kink is NOT going to go away, but it can be managed. If his wife isn’t into disciplining him, send him to a pro domme as I said–not as a freaking REWARD but to give a healthy outlet to his kink, a way to control and channel it, rather than engaging in a fruitless attempt to repress it by threatening divorce. That’s only if she thinks it’s worth the effort to try to salvage the relationship with her husband and father of her children. Again I recommend that she read Elise Sutton’s book. If it’s not worth that to her, as I posted previously she shouldn’t just threaten divorce, she should simply divorce.
Depending (in part) on how MHIO has talked to her husband about it, it is at least *possible* that he doesn’t realize that he’s coming across as a creeping creeper with extra creep sauce.
Someone who is 28 and a virgin is… well, I see 3 major probabilities, 2 of which don’t fit with the rest of his behavior. He’s nigh unto asexual, he’s strongly religious, or he’s *really* bad at relating to people. Possibly somewhere on the autism spectrum, possibly just clueless and/or stupid.
If he’s *that* bad at picking up on social clues, he genuinely might not realize that he’s creeping these women out. Which would drop his behavior, morally speaking, from “unforgivable a**hattery” to “a serious problem to be worked on”.
Presumably, the man has at least *some* positive qualities (there’s some reason she married him, after all), so she should at least give him a chance to shape up (with as clear of an explanation as possible as to what the problem is) before she ditches him.
I agree with catbus. MHIO needs to consider getting her husband evaluated for neurological problems that might lead to this type of acting out, along with following Dan’s excellent advice.
Also, Marrena, reading you saying “guys he’s just in subspace! his wife needs to cater to his needs by making his sexually assaultive behavior part of her sex play with him! lol!” is making me want to slam my head through a brick wall. What part of “pushing your kinks on unsuspecting third parties is not part of a game and is not OK” don’t you understand?
I’m amazed at being the first one to suggest this: MHIO’s husband has a mental disorder! He’s not just an “asshole”, “freak”, “douchebag”, or whatever. He’s mentally ill.
I’m not a psychiatrist, but from the psychiatric popular stuff I read, I’d put good money on it. Come on, the guy’s delusional! He’s living in a world of a constant sex game. He lost his grip on reality! I’m afraid he needs to see a psychiatrist, not just a shrink.
Unfortunately, many people get diagnosed only when the illness progresses way too much. It is only on the late stages of a mental illness that people consider the possibility of mental illness — before that, we’re all willing to explain the abnormal behavior in terms of assholery and such.
I may be wrong, of course, I’m not a pro (and I’ll be glad to turn out wrong on this one), but it’s worth checking out. A good therapist will spot it, anyway, so Dan’s advice is still good.
Honey, we ALL agree this guy needs to see a psychiatrist.
And @93–reading comprehension. From my post #92
“Oh for fuck’s sake–I’m not condoning the man’s behavior”
#64 “Just to be clear–in no way am I saying she should “put up with his bullshit.”
#48 “So yes, he wasn’t himself. That is absolutely NO EXCUSE for his illegal behavior.”
#37 “Yes, yes, yes–I did say he needs therapy, and he needs to understand what he is doing is not only wrong but illegal–I said that.”
#19 “Certainly he needs to see a therapist and be warned of the real world legal dangers of what he’s doing. “
What he’s doing is wrong. And I’m not suggesting that he be encouraged in that particular type of behavior–I’m not suggesting that he roleplay with a pro domme pretending to be a VS sales clerk. I’m suggesting that that type of crossdressing submissive will respond extremely well to corporal punishment if administered by a domme, and that not only can he be made to obey society’s rules, he can be made to obey his wife’s rules.
Marrena, I don’t think you see the pragmatism of the responses you’re getting. If MHIO dominates him to stop him sexually harassing other women, she gets herself into an incredibly shitty bind: she will have to keep dominating him in order to keep him from sexually harassing other women. He never has to take responsibility for his behaviour and his needs – instead his wife (mommy) has figured it out for him and provided, at her expense. What will he do when he has other needs? Keep acting out! It works! What will happen if she misses a week or if they run out of money for the pro-domme? Nothing good, because he’s never learnt to actually deal with his problems and feelings in any reasonable way.
I also don’t think you get how invasive and soul-sucking it is to be ‘GGG’ with someone who has effectively coerced you into it. It may not take ‘that much effort’ to cane someone once a week, but if I thought my options were caning someone I no longer respect for their pleasure vs having my family and dignity destroyed I don’t think I’d feel super-lubricated about the former. This situation is not GGG, & not tenable.
In pragmatic terms, your solution leaves MHIO still married to an asshole, albeit a fetishistically satisfied one. Both of Dan’s solutions provide MHIO herself with the possibility of a viable future.
@85: Iiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiick!
He sounds like a total shitwipe! I hope you sued his sorry ass to the moon.
Nobody should have to deal with a sexually twisted creep like that!
Marrena,
Lady, seriously, give it up. The more time you spend on this limb, defending yourself, the further you prove you haven’t a leg to stand on. Agree to disagree and walk away. Other posters might not chastise your suggestions so harshly, if you weren’t so dead-set on being right.
LOL, I’m a domme. Of course I’m convinced I’m right! In this case I happen to be right.
Of course if the wife isn’t up for it then she shouldn’t do it. I was just asking her to consider if perhaps she was up for it. If she’s not, and the pro domme thing is not an option, Dan is not doing her any favors by suggesting she merely threaten to divorce him. She will divorce him.
Marrena, jeez shuttup will ya!?
@Marrena, once you get a bit of experience behind you, perhaps then you might realise that an out-of-control individual – sub or not – is not someone you want to play with.
If the guy has no conception for appropriate boundaries, then indulging him by seemingly to encourage his fucked-up fantasies is not going to improve matters.
BDSM is about consent, and he is involving these women in his own screwed up scene -without- their consent. I don’t care how many canings or how much discipline you hand out, if he doesn’t understand that, dishing out “reward” behaviour is not going to help him understand that.
If you know so many experienced dommes, talk to them about this nutter. As a top, I can as sure as hell tell you I wouldn’t want this guy anywhere near me until he sorted out his boundary issues and abusive behaviour.
@101 Of course you wouldn’t choose to play with him as a sub. But what if you were already married to him and had his children–what would you do then?
@101 Of course you wouldn’t choose to play with him as a sub. But what if you were already married to him and had his children–what would you do then?
re MHIO: Sounds like the dude needs a psych evaluation and meds. That’s not “acting out,” that’s some kind of pathological disinhibition. I doubt he can control it on his own.
Regarding lady fluids – another issue are allergy meds. You know how benadryl dries out your sinuses – same deal 🙂 You get me on a day where I have allergy meds, BCP, and not enough fluids and there is no way I can get going without a couple drops of lube.
I also vote that LESVP’s lady friend, if she is squicked out by the lube, should just make a present of a new bottle. Its a great excuse to try something new, like going to a sex shop, if nothing else!
Mareena: “LOL, I’m a domme. Of course I’m convinced I’m right! In this case I happen to be right.”
Please get help.
I think I get what Marrena is saying @19- at first I was like, wtf, but after I read more of her posts I sort of get her point. She’s not saying that what he is doing is ok- obviously, she made that clear. She’s saying that since his impulses/boundaries problems aren’t exactly going to just disappear, then part of his therapy could be encouraging him to channel his bdsm interests in an appropriate way- ie. through a pro domme or through his wife’s forceful hand.
Interesting idea, but I’m not sure if it would actually work. It seems like what he is doing has less to do with BDSM and more to do with forcing his sexuality on unsuspecting women.
As Dan rightfully pointed out, what he is doing isn’t about humiliating himself as a submissive who enjoys consensual BDSM play- It’s about humiliating the women he is approaching by sexually harassing them.
His behavior is closer to that of a sex offender than that of a submissive who enjoys bdsm. Take away the bdsm aspect from what he is doing and all you’ve got left is a guy who likes to humiliate random women in public by subjecting them to his lewd comments. His actions might be flavored with bdsm, but the mainstay of his behavior is sexually aggressive behavior.
Real BDSM involves clear boundaries that are discussed extensively between consenting adults before any actual roleplay or sexual behavior happens. There is a safe word and anyone involved in a scene has already consented to whatever they are doing before it happens.
Whatever the case may be, this guy needs serious help. And who knows, maybe Marenna’s suggestion that he channel his impulses through a pro domme, etc. might actually do the trick. If he really does want to be dominated and he enjoys being punished, then some type of reward/punishment training could go a long way. Anything to please his mistress? I’m not sure, but given the current situation it can’t hurt to try channeling his urges into safe, sane and consensual bdsm play. As long as he hasn’t escalated and crossed the line into exposing himself or making any physical contact with the women he has approached, then there is probably hope for him.
But MHIO’s husband didn’t actually do anything. Did the salesgirl come to the wife? Did he contact the neighbor? Did the co-worker come to the wife with the “dark secret?” No. All we know is what the husband told the wife. There is no corroboration at all. He “tried” to contact the neighbor. He is “going” to confess his dark secret. It’s all bullshit. He’s a wimpy mindfucker and she’s gullible.
Marrena, yes maam. You are absolutely right… Except that you aren’t. The husband has crossed a line beyond which there are serious implications. Whether or not the wife is willing to reign him in through play is irrelevent. He has some serious issues for involving uninterested parties in his fetish. Where will it end? Without some serious therapy, he will continue to blur the line betweeen approriate and inappropriate contact with strangers and eventually either harm himself, others or end up with the law involved. This is not a matter of “if you can’t beat him (pun intended) join him. His crossing that line shows that he doesn’t know what is right from wrong or that he doesn’t care. Whether his wife gets involved or not, will still only end in hardship until he gets the therapy to realize that line exists.
I’ve seen behaviour like MHIO before, and it has two sides.
His side : inappropriate behaviour, impulsiveness, somewhere on the autistic spectrum.
So far, so bad, but..
Her side : thoughtless, inconsiderate, judgemental.
I’ll bet money that as well as his behaviour, she hasn’t bothered to analyse why he’s behaving that way and never discussed sexual compatibility before marriage, let alone now.
When someone says they want to wear panties and have fun made of their small cock, it is not a ‘but whatever’ – it’s something to be discussed and understood.
Dan’s advice is pretty good, but MHIO also needs to understand that when he sees that therapist she’s also going to have to have a long hard unfavourable look at herself.
OMFG, the tenga video on the liberator website. i need some time alone, alone but very, very clothed.
In case there’s still a need for a solution to WET’s dilemma, there are a couple products I’ve seen at a fabric store in PDX that might help. One is rubberized flannel and another is P.U.L.
In regards to MHIO, it sounds like she was never into his kink but went along with it in the spirit of being GGG until it became too much for her to deal with. He does need help and she should help him get it, but I’m also seeing a woman who seems to just be done with it all. If that is the case, she should just divorce him. I don’t know squat about FemDom so I don’t know if Marrena’s suggestion would work or not but it sounds like a lot of work and MHIO doesn’t sound like she’s up for that.
@92: “a creeping creeper with extra creep sauce.” Love it! 😀
Marrena, I think you’re seeing the world through the lens of your newly-acquired FemDom glasses.
A woman whose attitude to learning about her husband’s kink is “whatever,” isn’t going to get into caning him. She wants normalcy, not more kink.
You complained about the level of judgment on this “sex site” discussion, but you’re not taking into account the attitude of the letter writer. She’s trying to make the husband stop, not trying to find new creative ways to punish him and feed his kink. It seemed clear by the way she mentioned that she has children with him, that she would leave him if there weren’t other issues. You are undoubtedly enjoying your newfound world–you’ve described yourself as a newbie dom several times–but not everyone wants to live in it, too.
Lastly, you said: “Occasionally Dan gives advice to good pedophiles, pedophiles who don’t act on their urges, on how to control their kink by having lots of roleplay with young-looking sex partners, always making sure that one has a sex partner, etc. All I’m saying is to take a similar approach with this type of kink.”
I seem to remember that Dan has suggested medication to lower libido for “good” pedophiles, not that they have lots of roleplay with young-looking partners. I believe it was a reader who offered that suggestion, against the advice of people who work with pedophiles, sex offenders, and others whose kinks involve non-consent (MHIO’s husband’s kink involves non consent). The prevalent thinking is that by encouraging substitutes that approximate the forbidden desire, it increases the desire to have the real thing. Generally chemical castration is what is recommended–which is NOT the same thing as having a man who wants to be sexually humiliated and to sexually humiliate others in the process get caned by a FemDom. That is a reward for his behavior, not a punishment. He needs neither. He needs to stop acting on the desire if it involves unwilling participants. And to do that, he needs to have the desire lessened.
I’m pretty sure it was Dan who said that about pedophiles.
There was a time when I thought FemDom was really strange and alien, certainly nothing I would ever be interested in. Now I love it. Women’s sexuality is rather fluid, I was just suggesting that she give it her consideration.
@109 🙂 I’ve said all along the husband needs lots of psychiatric help, therapy, what have you.
Maybe it’s just me, but MHIO’s letter could have been written by Kate Gosselin about Jon…LOL
WOW……..dudes wearin panties talkin about his hamster dick……new bottles of butt lube bitch we are still in a recession……oh yea and a case of stinky mattress cum……whats tha world comin to
This video is wrong in so many ways: youtube “eat da poo poo”, ugandan gay hater leatards…
I’m on board with you Marrena. I think playing to this guy’s kink is a shitty idea, but I think it’s less shitty than any alternative.
Marrena, the problem with your solution is that it keeps this guy thinking about life as a sex game, and he needs to be yanked out of his games immediately. His sex life has become unhealthy, and he’s verging into criminal behavior that could ruin his career, among other things. Since divorce would entail his wife and kids actually leaving him, that might be a bit of a wake-up call, no? The other commenters who suggest serious mental illness are probably closest to the mark, though. This kind of detachment from reality is not normal, and if it’s new behavior, there’s probably something seriously wrong. But the absolute last thing the wife should do is to try and find a kinky solution to this problem.
Whether you get him after a long term commited monogamous relationship or he’s moving forward from whoredom, I say: a new relationship, new lube, new condoms, new sheets, new pillows, new matress, new paint on the bedroom walls, new carpet, new shower curtain, new couch, new calendar, new cups, new new new new NEW, etc. When I’m getting it on with my man, I don’t want anything the previous girl(s) touched but him. Out of sight, out of mind. He’s lucky she only wants new lube. If you don’t get it you must not be very serious about her, in which case you should let her know that and if she decides to continue to have sex with you, then she should buy the lube she wants or bring a half full bottle that she’s more comfortable with. bunny5008@yahoo.com
Hey, soak it up, I do believe the guy is spoilin for a new mattress–because he thinks there’s a chance you’ll cave. Just the fact that you actually considered goin in halvsies says you’re a doormat, and he knows it… so the fucking cheapass mannerless tightwad is taking advantage of your lack or self esteem. What a d-bag he is. Tell him no, HAIL no. Then, if you’re worried he’ll tell his friends, send him this column–and send it to the friends too, so he can see you outed him first.
@85 persimmon, it’s not rape, but it *is* a form of sex crime. He’s involving you in (what is to him) a sex act without your consent. If you still worked there, I’d suggest talking to your manager and trying to get the guy banned from the store, and/or calling the police on him.
Call me ignorant, but it seems to me that if there is any sort of punishment roleplay tied to the behavior, he will keep doing it in order to keep getting punished. She needs to find a solution that makes it clear that this isn’t a game — that it needs to stop now, stop hard, and stop permanently.
Personally, since he sees nothing wrong with it, I foresee it just going off her radar, until it surfaces again with an arrest or a harassment suit. I suspect she needs to just divorce him now.
By the way, as impossible as it seems, since it shoots out of pussy, female ejaculate HAS NO SMELL. At least MINE doesn’t. I’ve been ejaculating for 20 years and it never ceases to amaze me that once it dries, it is absolutely undetectable.
I think MHIO already knows what she needs to do. Give therapy a try and have him understand that she *will* leave him if he doesn’t stop. GGG is a two-way street. He’s not respecting her boundaries or the boundaries of outsiders. Does this mean she should leash, so to speak, his sexual expression? Not necessarily, but by his actions as stated in the letter, she is being implicated when he’s talking to these other women. Context, context, context! Sex is not divorced from morality* and what he’s doing is wrong.
Some time ago, there was a call on the podcast where a young girl was involved in a similar situation with her boyfriend. She would humiliate or speak to him and a very negative way in front of her little sister who would then try to defend the guy as she didn’t understand what was going on. I think (I be wrong about this part, as I don’t remember completely) the caller wanted to know if she should explain the dynamic to her younger (and I mean young) sister. Dan’s advice was of course correct, and the caller was involving her younger sibling against her will into their sex play and he told her to knock it the fuck off. I think this is somewhat similar.
*Of course, sexual morality is not about what you put in your mouth or up your butt, it has to do with how you feel about yourself, the person you’re with, consent, etc.
Bah, it’s not unregistered!
Marenna,
This isn’t a “sex board,” it’s the comments section of a publicly-available website for a column that gives sex advice. There are almost as many people who disagree with Dan as people who agree with him here, including several sex-negative people who show up just to bitch about “the fag telling people to sin.” But that’s not why people disagree with you. They disagree because “effective” and “proper” are not always the same thing. We could end world hunger by killing everyone dying of starvation. It would be very effective, but few people would consider it proper.
There is also another reason why your advice is bad. Threatening divorce and then following through if no change occurs legally distances MHIO from her husband’s actions. Making it part of a shared sex game, however, may very well make her part of it in the eyes of a court (or at least a prosecutor). “But the sex game was to prevent the behavior,” you protest. I’m no legal expert, but something tells me that wouldn’t fly in court. I don’t think I would buy it, and it looks like most of the commenters here wouldn’t either.
Marrena,
You’re wrong, he’s wrong, but I think I may have a solution for you:
Why don’t you get all domme-gussied up and serve him his legal papers?
Then you can both get what you want.
Oh, and for shits and giggles, as a “newbie sub” myself, I find your inability to look at your own motives and projections extremely frightening, I would never play with someone with the kind of mindset you’re evincing.
The wife made it clear that being a domme is just not her piece of cake. If you can’t switch, you can’t switch, if you can’t sub, you can’t sub. This woman tried domme on, and found out she can’t do it.
Suggesting that to her is like me suggesting to you (for example), oh I don’t know, that you get involved in a consensual nonconsent scene that you don’t know your partner will spring on you, or how it will happen, with you the sub all the way. Because maybe that really fires your partner’s kettle. And they love talking about it at work, in the checkout line, at the gas station, their plans for throwing a sack over your head coming home from work one day as a little “luv surprise” since you talked about it maybe once, like 6 years ago. Methinks you would balk and consider legal repercussions. I admit, I assume much, but hey, it’s my hypothetical here.
While I love the idea of GGG, I think you’re failing to grasp the behavioral cognitive implications of catering to this man’s sickness. He would take it as permission and run with it, like a wolf with a lambchop.
I dig that dommes are all into being right and power and stuff, but if you can’t recognize where your power ends and someone else’s free will begins?
Hie thee back to some more top workshops at CSPC.
STAT!
You know, usually at the point when one spouse refers to the other as “fucking asshole” and “pervert” it’s not time to threaten to serve divorce papers; it’s time to file. What’s left, lady? DTMFA.
@ Marrena – to a hammer, everything is a nail.
Marrena, your assertion that MHIO ought to respond to her husband’s boundary-crossing, borderline-assaultive behavior with reinforcement is at best ignorant, at worst dangerous. This man admitted to peeping at a neighbor, which is behavior that can (and likely eventually will) lead to legal action. He may find that titillating, being into humiliation and all, but he has no right to drag his family into it, not to mention all the nonconsenting coworkers/neighbors/poor girls who work at Victoria’s Secret who he’s already involved in his kink whether they like it or not. To assert that this behavior is merely BDSM is patently ridiculous, and reading your many comments condoning nonconsensual kink-related behavior makes me feel sorry for any poor sub who might choose to play with you. By the way, your assertion that Savage responded to the gold-star pedophile with a suggestion that he roleplay it out with a younger partner is entirely incorrect.
I wonder if MIHO’s husband is actually doing those things he says he is doing, or just -telling- his wife that he is doing those things as some sort of fantasy turn on for himself? And he is so into his fantasy that he doesn’t want to admit that they didn’t -really- happen?
Just a thought. Either way, he has serious issues and divorce papers and counseling are needed.
The whole time I read this letter I was hoping it was just fantasy.
Are you familiar with Dan at all? He has never suggested using a young-looking sex partner for pedophiles. He suggests chemical castration and oodles of therapy for pedophiles. Jesus, get your facts right at least ONCE, lady.
Yes, Marrena, look at the relevant column:
http://www.thestranger.com/seattle/Savag…
Dan NEVER advocated pedophiles finding young-looking partners! Where do you get this shit?
That was the most recent column. I’ve been reading Dan Savage for over a decade, he’s talked about it before.
The reading comprehension level shown in this thread certainly has convinced me that not all women are superior. Ladies, brush up on your English skills please before you start making half-assed comments.
Speaking as someone who shares the fantasies of MHIO’s husband, I would like to note what an ignorant, bigoted, fearful, torch-bearing mob you all are. (With one or two exceptions, like the brave Marenna.)
I agree with the essence of Dan’s advice as far as it went – compelling non-consensual bystanders to be part of your scene is wrong and if MHIO’s husband actually did this (more on that below) he does need a cold wake-up call and therapy wouldn’t hurt.
People on this queue have gone way overboard departing from the facts of the letter and projecting their own hang-ups. All we really know is what he told his wife he had done or “wanted” to do. It strikes me as more than 50% likely that the only person forced into a scene with him is MIHO herself when he spins his bullshit to her. From her letter MHIO hardly seems at all GGG and it is very likely that her husband is just making this shit up to involve her in the role-playing she won’t do – “I was naughty today mommy…”
And I am amazed at how frantic people are to pardon MIHO from any personal responsibility or introspection. When they met he was an inexperienced virgin. He was open about his fetishes and she married him thereafter. Nevertheless after being married long enough to have children (plural), she still can’t bring herself to speak of his sexuality more comfortably than him being “different,” and has a “whatever” attitude? This is GGG?
I’ll do a little projecting myself: Is there anything AT ALL in her letter that suggests she would be OK with him seeking the consensual play partners (that Dan refers to) outside the marriage?
Don’t get me wrong, I am not saying that her husband is not 100% responsible for his own actions and their consequences. And if it needs to be repeated for those posters with weak reading skills: Lack of consensual partners is no excuse for non-consensual activities. But the fact that he is responsible doesn’t imply that she is the driven snow.
And how is he to find these outside of wedlock consensual partners if he is not allowed to confess his fetishes to, or proposition woman he finds attractive? I’m not talking about the Victoria’s Secrets sales clerks – if that pathetic scene really played out there is just no excuse for that and he needs to leave these poor woman alone to earn their living in peace – but about the neighbor and the coworker.
It seems to be overlooked by most of you that it isn’t even alleged that he said anything sexual to either one of them – just that he wanted to or hoped to someday, – but let’s set that aside. What exactly is inappropriate about speaking openly about your “deep dark secret” fetish with a woman you are interested in? Or trying to proposition someone in the neighborhood who caught your eye? (And spare me the “criminal” and “stalking” bullshit. This could have been an inadvertent glimpse through open curtains for all we know.)
If MHIO wants her husband to keep his sexual interests secret from one and all, and not bother her too much with them either, then where is his outlet? If she wants him to be more selective about who to share it with (no one at work, none of the neighbors) but is willing to let him reach out for extramarital consensual partners discretely then they should have that conversation.
Nothing excuses any actual non-consensual activity MHIO’s husband has caused. But nothing in all this excuses MHIO from her marital obligation to be GGG either. And nothing excuses the rest of you from going on prudish sex-negative rants.
Good grief! Give Marrena a break! As a very experienced Domme, both Pro and lifestyle, I agree with what she’s saying.
It’s a sensible alternative/supplement to divorce papers. The man, without a single doubt needs therapy and lots of it. He needs some controls placed upon him as well.
If his wife wants, she probably can have a husband who doesn’t act out in public, who does all the housework and brings her tea in bed in the morning and a host of other pleasant things in her life.
What Marrena is suggesting is the wife try. That’s it. Just try. Or pack him off to a pro. I have a twenty year relationship with a married couple in a similar situation. The husband doesn’t act out in public like this dolt, but he becomes unbearable at home.
When that happens, he gets a day long reminder session with me, that his wife is as GGG as they get and he’d damned well better remember it.
Anything–absolutely anything–is OK in the realm of fantasy…and if this is just fantasy it’s OK too. However, based on what the writer stated in her letter–which is the only thing any commenter has to go on–the husband is doing nonconsensual things to completely inappropriate people. Lack of experience is no excuse for an adult person to do these things–there is plenty of educational material available in this day and age. Peeking at your neighbors in reality is NOT okay. Being openly sexual with a coworker at work is NOT okay. Harrassing salesgirls at the underwear store, NOT okay. If he is just fantasizing, he needs to tell his wife in a nonsexual moment that this is the case, because letting his wife believe he is committing criminal activity and implicating her in it is also NOT okay. If you go back and read the letter, it states that he claims to have actually said these things to the coworker and the sales clerks–the neighbor he just admits to peeping at. Regardless of how GGG the wife is or is not, if he has actually done these things, it is an indicator of a serious issue. One of my lovers is a guy into erotic humiliation, forced feminization, etc…there is nothing at all inherently wrong with these scenarios, provided that all parties CONSENT to the activity. It is not the fetish/sexuality aspect of this that makes me uncomfortable, it is the lack of consent that stops me cold. If that makes me a sex-negative torch-bearer, so be it.
Good grief! Give Marrena a break! As a very experienced Domme, both Pro and lifestyle, I agree with what she’s saying.
It’s a sensible alternative/supplement to divorce papers. The man, without a single doubt needs therapy and lots of it. He needs some controls placed upon him as well.
If his wife wants, she probably can have a husband who doesn’t act out in public, who does all the housework and brings her tea in bed in the morning and a host of other pleasant things in her life.
What Marrena is suggesting is the wife try. That’s it. Just try. Or pack him off to a pro. I have a twenty year relationship with a married couple in a similar situation. The husband doesn’t act out in public like this dolt, but he becomes unbearable at home.
When that happens, he gets a day long reminder session with me, that his wife is as GGG as they get and he’d damned well better remember it.
@139 Yadda yadda yadda… “Nothing excuses any actual non-consensual activity MHIO’s husband has caused. But nothing in all this excuses MHIO from her marital obligation to be GGG either.”
‘GGG’ only applies to kinks that are within reason, that the non-kinked partner can at least tolerate. MHIO *was* GGG; she doesn’t really get into the whole feminization/humiliation thing, but she was willing to indulge her husband to a reasonable extent. The husband quite selfishly wants to escalate the kink to a blatantly unreasonable extent, either harassing innocent third parties or emotionally manipulating his wife by making her think he is. Where’s his obligation to be GGG? We don’t know from the letter how giving and game he’s been in fulfilling her sexual needs, but he’s obviously not good, in the sense of being a good person, as it’s clear in the letter that she hates his guts now.
All this talk about her ‘duty’ to indulge his kink completely misses the point. If they are both partners in this relationship, they both have a duty to understand where each other’s comfort zones are and to only push, not break, those limits. MHIO’s husband has overindulged in his kink to the point where it’s creating a full-blown sexual incompatibility with his wife. He’s taken a fetish that she was at worst indifferent to and has turned it into something that terrorizes her. It’s not prudish or sex-negative to say that *he’s doing it wrong*, and that if he wants to keep his formerly GGG wife he needs to dial it the fuck down. Because it’s no longer about sex, about his kink, about how sad it is that she’s not letting him get his rocks off just the way he wants to. It’s about their relationship, and how he’s ruining it by being a selfish, out of control prick. And if he’s fine with that, then they can divorce and he can go find the full-time domme of his dreams and she can go find someone who can manage a basic modicum of self-control and everyone will be happy.
Except the kids, but you can never keep kids happy anyway, so fuckit.
Marrena @ 138: The reading comprehension level shown in this thread certainly has convinced me that not all women are superior.
Are you at all capable of separating your sexual fantasies from reality? I hope you are joking.
And I second #139.
I’d also like to add this–we don’t KNOW what this man has done. We “know” what his wife says he’d told her he’d done. That’s it. She never witnessed any of his actions, did she? No.
I’m betting that a man who was a 28 year old virgin isn’t the poster child for verbalizing his needs. I’ll bet you all fifty cents that his confessions are made up BS meant to get a reaction from his wife. Fantasies, if you will.
Think about it. So far, his wife is the only person he has felt safe enough with to not only have sex, but also to tell her his kinks. Do you really think this uptight, frightened guy is running around, repeatedly accosting the women at VS?
Do you really think the staff at VS aren’t trained on how to handle inappropriate creeps? And do you really think they’d let the extra creepy creeper slathered in creep sauce back in their stores once he transgressed? Maybe, but doubtful.
I’ll bet Mr. Man would be frog marched out of the mall the instant his face appeared at the VS window if he really was doing all he claimed to do.
Nope. My BS detector is on five klaxon alert. And the BS is coming both from the mate who sounds desperate for his wife’s attention and the wife who can’t for the life of her understand why he’s acting this way when she’s been sooooo GGG–in a whatever sort of way.
@143 “Avi”
How do you know she has been GGG? As I said (@139) it certainly doesn’t come through in the letter. What does come through is her distaste for the kink that is at the heart of his sexuality. Such grimacing distain after many years in the relationship isn’t a very promising indicator of a GGG, I think any reasonable person would agree.
I think you are clearly projecting.
And I think your point about “comfort zones” and “breaking limits” is also based on nothing more than your imagination. In the first place, how do you know what the limits were or what her comfort zone is? What if her comfort zone is severely restrictive? What if it is that very seldom she will indulge him reluctantly with a bit of dispirited and impatient dirty-talk while he strokes off? What if before the marriage she promised the moon? You don’t know, and neither do I.
When we marry, part of the deal is to help the other person be sexually fulfilled. That isn’t working out here and you ASSUMPTION is that it is because he is insatiable and unreasonable. But the facts neither support or disprove this. We don’t know what alternatives she has offered. Have they tried intense role play? (Intensity is a big thing for the fetishist.) Has she agreed to meet and get to know other people in their area into the scene? Has she agreed to seek a willing partner to “witness” or participate in their scenes? Has she agreed to let him seek extramarital help on this without her?
Being GGG means searching for solutions that both of you can live with – and going the extra mile out of your own “comfort zone” to make it work. Interestingly, that is what marriage means too.
Shaking divorce papers at them and telling them they need therapy every time someone gets pushed from their comfort zone is not productive, fair, or healthy.
@144 kitschnsync
Perhaps she was joking about the female superiority, but she has a really good point about the reading comprehension by the posters to this thread.
Okay, so we don’t know that he has done it for real or not…
BUT…
His wife is operating under the assumption that he actually did what he said he did. If they were factual episodes, she has every right and reason to be considering divorce or worse. He has a duty to either clue her in that he is just fantasizing out loud, or else to quietly accept the divorce papers when she files because she took him seriously.
He also needs to apologize for terrorizing her by pretending for so long that it was factual. As long is he is keeping her in the dark, it isn’t about her indulging his fantasy life, it’s about him inflicting it on her.
So either he is a complete asshole for actually doing all that stuff, or he is a complete asshole for pretending so convincingly to have done it.
@141 Joon
I think you are missing one of my points. We don’t know from the letter that he actually did these things. As you say, the letter writer says he TOLD HER he did these things. My point was that, based on my own experience and acquaintance in the fetish at hand, there is a better than even chance he was lying to her about them.
Even if he was telling the truth, the letter doesn’t really tell us he was “peeping,” only that he “could see her.” I live in a city. Just looking out the window to see the stars you see any number of folks who have left their curtains out doing this or that. (By the way, given that he “tried” but failed to contact the neighbor, it seems likely it is something like this, then the woman in the cape-cod next door that they BBQ with?) Peeping is your projection.
And what is alleged is that he was preparing to tell a coworker a secret side of him. You are telling me that making friends with someone who works where you do and eventually growing so close that you take them into your confidence about your inner feelings is a “criminal activity?” Come on.
(Hell, for all we know the VS salesclerk asked him if they were for him and flirted with him about it first. Very unlikely, I agree, but not unheard of.)
The thing is that you are putting your own frame on and reading your own HUGE ASSUMPTIONS into the letter – in each case assuming that he is the most crazed inappropriate psycho creep.
Everyone I have read on here has agreed that if he did these things in the manner that people like you ASSUME (it is NOT in the letter) then this is totally unacceptable behavior. What I am saying is, “what if your assumptions are off and it isn’t like that.” It seems like you and others on here are VERY reluctant to entertain scenarios that fit the known facts but do not make him such a villain (Or explore the implications of such scenarios.)
I think that reluctance – and your assumptions – say a lot more about you all than it does about MHIO’s husband.
Yeesh, Marrena, just providing some evidence. How is that “half-assed?” And, at the risk of showing my inferiority, I’d say that the column from February probably expresses Dan’s currents opinions on the subject.
I’d advise MHIO to check her husband’s phone records, credit cards and e-mail accounts for communications with a phone sex service that specializes in femme dommes. If this story is real, he is far enough gone that it’s likely he is paying a woman to “force” him to push the envelope — taking direction from someone he is paying would be consistent with his kinks.
However, I think Andreas375 might have better BS monitors than most of us. The letter could well be from a man who is describing his fantasies of cuckolding, humiliation, etc.
As a phone sex operator at Niteflirt.com, I have talked with men who do their best, and sometimes succeed for a while, to convince me that what they’re saying is “real” instead of fantasy. And the scenarios MHIO presents are pretty common fantasies in my neck of the phone sex world.
Yeesh, Marrena, just providing some evidence. How is that “half-assed?” And, at the risk of showing my inferiority, I’d say that the column from February probably expresses Dan’s currents opinions on the subject.
@148 avast2006
OK, let’s assume that he did do these things. But what are the facts around them?
Are you arguing that it is never, ever, appropriate to try to find out who that attractive person you caught a glimpse of is so that you might strike up an acquaintance and make a pass at them. (Another way of describing the “neighbor” episode.)
Are you arguing that it is never, ever, acceptable to become such a close friends with a fellow employee that you share with them personal confidences? (The “coworker” episode.)
Are you arguing that it is never OK to flirt with attractive sales clerks and tell them things about yourself? (The Victoria’s Secret episode.)
In each of these cases, the thing could have been wildly inappropriate and just stomach-turning wrong. Maybe he was stalking the neighbor, and peeping. Watching with a telescope and taking pictures with a long-range lens. Maybe he was victimizing a coworker, a clerical staffer who had to humor his unwelcome confidences Anita Hill style to keep her job in this economy. Maybe he was just blurting out humiliating things to shell-shocked salesclerks at the mall like a turrets sufferer.
Or maybe not. Maybe the neighbor is a stranger from the high-rise down the way he caught a brief accidental glimpse of because she didn’t close her curtains one night. Maybe the coworker is close pal and drinking buddy who he feels he can share with without rebuke the things that make him small in the eyes of his spouse. Maybe the salesclerk’s experienced eye marked the nervous fumbling man looking at the XL panties as a crossdresser and started to coax his story from him with delight.
We don’t know and the letter doesn’t say.
So even if he did “all this stuff” we don’t know he is an asshole because we don’t know what “all this stuff” actually was. So why not stop imagining and focus on the facts we know.
@ 148 “He also needs to apologize for terrorizing her by pretending for so long that it was factual. As long is he is keeping her in the dark, it isn’t about her indulging his fantasy life, it’s about him inflicting it on her.”
Certainly. Absolutely. Totally reasonable and necessary. Couldn’t agree more.
I don’t think that’s going to happen any time soon though. Just another wild guess based upon experience.
The guy needs therapy, there’s no doubt about it. Prolly the wife does too and from a kink and sex positive counselor as Dan suggested.
What I don’t get is the antagonism from some folks about Marrena’s sensible and intelligent comments. What she suggests does and can work. I’ve have seen it happen in RL so it must be true. ;P
She’s simply suggesting the wife accept the reality of having a subbie husband and turning that info to the advantage of everyone involved.
Getting to that point will no doubt involve heavy duty counseling and quite possibly some divorce papers being drawn up. But let’s think beyond the counseling and legalities to the possibilities as well, shall we?
This comment is directed at Vanilla Swirl. It is easy for you to stand on your soapbox and judge me. I like how you imply that I am not a GGG wife. I tried that, it did not work, this has progressivley gotten worse. I am open sexually, as long as it about constent and respect. I so happy for you that you are so sexually liberated and Im the sexually fridig wife. I m sure you would if a coworker suddenly told you he would love to piss all over you while dressed like a woman, real turn on. My husband mislead before marriage making me believe this was strictly between him and I. He is an embarrassment at this point, that he does not understand sexual boundaries between adults, is frightening. I have a daughter with this man and I do not want her to think this is normal behavior. I knew my husband and had been dating him for a while and I was never completely comfortable with his kink, but I was willing to indulge him. I cant how uncomfoprtable an coworker or salesgirl would feel knowing my husband sexual interests, its laughable. And are you fucking insane to say is it never ok to tell a Vicorias Secret salesgirl personall things about yourself? What just because she sells underwear for minimum wage that actomatically sexualizes her and mean shes up for sex talk?? I suppose because I like to fuck bananas I can tell the produce guy I like to get it on with a really hard banana. Unfucking believeable.
And I meant to add, VanillaSwirl, you are so concerned that I am not meeting his needs and being GGG. Do you think he has EVER asked what Im into, what my needs are? No. So I hate to burst your “oh she is a fridig woman and its her fault deal,” but that aint the case. I am very fun sexually, but I call me crazy, I dont enjoy abuse and Im gonna go out on a limb and bet the other women do not like it as well.
I’m sorry, but the whole “If his wife acted differently at home, he wouldn’t have to go out and do these things” argument is reminding me of the “If she didn’t overcook the pot roast, her husband wouldn’t have to beat her so hard” argument.
(And VSC, he isn’t flirting with people. He’s telling them (or threatening to tell them) personal details about his sex life, details that I know I wouldn’t want a co-worker, customer or neighbor revealing to me.)
MHIO is setting himself up for a lot of things, from lawsuits to jail time to a straight up beatdown. Sorry kids, but there’s only one person you should be discussing your fetishes with, and that’s the person you’re fucking. This guy’s no better than the creeper at the bus stop flashing people. FUCKING SEVER.
@114: thanks, I was proud of that bit.
@114: thanks, I was proud of that bit.
gah, sorry for the double post.
Marrena and Vanilla Swirl Couple, you go on ahead and make all the assumptions you like about his wife’s lack of indulgence, but continue to lambast other commenters for assuming that the wife may be telling the truth.
Also, she deserves it for not completely indulging his kink even if she’s not comfortable there, the VS salesgirls were probably asking for it, and peeping your neighbors is OK, as is making openly sexual statements/requests to your coworkers. Are we all on the same page now?
Much like the husband of the letter-writer, it sounds like you folks have a very hard time separating sexual fantasy from actual reality.
Please send the guy to a psychiatrist. Something more heavy duty than a therapist might be needed here. Maybe a therapist AND a psychiatrist.
And yeah, divorce papers served: anything less will not shock him into “oh, this is actually a serious situation”. Since he seems pretty detached from reality.
I know guys who were fairly old before they got any, and they still didn’t go acting like this. 😛
Hey Vanilla Swirl Couple, have you read enough yet to clue you in that the wife appears to be basically monogamous? If he actually did any of that, regardless of how much time he spent ever so sensitively grooming these women to be his close friends so that they would be receptive to his little bombs when he chose to drop them…that would still make him a cheating POS, on top of everything else.
The only possible saving grace is if it was all just a fantasy, and we’ve already covered how that makes him an asshole for making his wife believe it was for real.
It’s our responsibility as functional human beings to be able to police our indulgences. We need to be able to recognize when they’re doing us more harm than good. This is true of booze, drugs, porn, video games, masturbation, kinks, and especially kinks that our partners aren’t entirely keen on. There’s a reason why we as a society look down on unrepentant junkies, why we pity and mock broken-down celebrities like Lindsay Lohan. We can see their inability to recognize the harm they’re doing to themselves. The bulk of the people in these comments have been down on MHIO’s husband because we can see his inability to recognize the harm he’s doing to his relationship. It’s not about his kink any longer. It’s about his lack of self-control and how it’s driving his wife away from him.
“What if her comfort zone is severely restrictive? What if it is that very seldom she will indulge him reluctantly with a bit of dispirited and impatient dirty-talk while he strokes off? What if before the marriage she promised the moon?” Then they were never sexually compatible to begin with and they should get divorced anyway. MHIO already indulged him as much as she was comfortable with, he rewarded her by escalating to a point that she’s extremely uncomfortable with. We don’t need to read between any lines to know that, it’s plainly evident in her letter. It’s his responsibility at this point to recognize that his kink has become toxic to his relationship and walk it back. If he’s incapable of doing so she has every right to leave him, just as she has every right to leave him for coming home drunk every night or gaining a hundred pounds or spending every waking moment of his life playing Warcraft or blowing all their money on crack or gambling or scammy pornsites or…
Maybe things would work out fine if she was more indulgent. It’d certainly be great for him, anyway. It’d be great if all of us had partners who allowed us to indiscriminately indulge our passions. I’d personally love to have a partner who was willing to fully support me financially so I could just laze around a read all day and night. (Yes, I am that boring.) But I don’t expect to find that person. And I don’t think MHIO can be that person for her husband. Maybe hiring someone to be that person could work, but frankly, at this point it’s too damn late. The damage has already been done. He has to be able to fix that damage and get their relationship back to a safe place before she should even consider foisting him off onto a pro, to do otherwise ignores his underlying problem. It amounts to rewarding him for bad behavior, like a Warcraft widow getting her husband a year’s subscription for Xmas. Until he learns to police this indulgence of his nothing will really get better.
@19,@37 —
No, that will backfire. Think about it. He likes to be dominated, punished. So if she sets up rules and says don’t do this or else you’ll be punished, obviously he’ll – at least on occasion — break the rules in order to get the “punishment” (which for subs, esp. those with masochistic tendencies really isn’t a punishment in the dictionary sense of the word.)
But these are rules that he absolutely can not break no matter what. Therefore the consequences shouldn’t be sexualized. Dan is absolutely right on this. She needs to say he must stop or else get divorced. There is no other alternative– other than her getting a divorce without giving him the opportunity to change…which, might actually not be a bad idea.
@155 + 156: Assuming you are MHIO, it sounds to me as if you are very angry (rightfully so) about the situation and what it is doing to you and your daughter. I hope that you realize that your number one priority is keeping your daughter out of harm’s way and at the rate your husband is going there will be a train wreck as he will get into trouble. I am truly surprised that he has not gotten into trouble already for what he told his coworker (if he told that to me while I was at work; I would be screaming, “hostile work environment,” at the top of my lungs.)
If you haven’t already done so; get yourself to a lawyer, if not for your sake for your daughter’s, to understand all of your options and be ready to do what is needed even if your not ready. I would also suggest that you head to a perv – friendly therapist to get counseling on how to effectively deal with the issues vis a vis your husband. The reason why I am suggesting a perv – friendly one for you is that he or she will not freak out about the specific fetish and work on the real issues of your anger and your need to better communicate what you want out of relationships.
I hope this helps.
Some of you have some bass-ackwards ideas about GGG. GGG just means to keep an open mind and try new things, even if they are a little outside your comfort zone. It does NOT mean you have to go along with something that repulses you, puts you in legal jeopardy, or makes you less attracted to the person you’re with. Everyone has their likes and dislikes.
Personally, I would have been permanently turned off by this guy the moment he said he likes to wear panties. Not because I think there is anything wrong with a guy having that kink, but simply because I find men in women’s clothing to be unattractive to the point of drying up my libido entirely. And I’m sure I’m not the only woman who feels that way, so this guy really hit the jackpot to find a woman who is not turned off by that. But instead of considering himself lucky, what does he do? He selfishly punishes the envelope to the point where she might be an accessory to his possibly illegal activities, without any regard for her feelings about it at all.
Seriously, this guy was a virgin until age 28 – not exactly popular with the ladies even before any of them knew of his kink. How likely is it he’s going to be able to do any better? He needs a serious reality check.
And Dan was being rather charitable to suggest that she give him an ultimatum and a chance to clean up his act rather than just divorcing him. After the lack of consideration he has shown her, she has every right to get a divorce regardless of any promises he might make.
Wife of Bad Husband: As a former officer of the law and a current attorney who used to represent kids in the dependency system, I have to ask you this: are you willing to risk losing custody of your daughter, even for a few days, in order to save your marriage? Because that may well be the choice you are making. If he is actually doing what he tells you he is doing, he could be arrested. I can think of at least three crimes he could be charged with off the top of my head and I’m not one of those sneaky DA types who like to find everything they can and “throw the book at em”. If Bad Husband’s done it more than once and the cops find out, they will call your local child protective services. In the jurisdiction in which I worked, the minute they found out you knew (or even suspected you knew), your kids would be taken away. You wouldn’t be able to stop it. If he actually physically touched someone or exposed himself during these clearly unwanted assaults,you would be charged with failing to protect your kids from someone you knew was a danger. (They wouldn’t really want to go after you, just want to get your testimony so they could force him into therapy, etc.) Best case scenario is your kid is in custody for 2-3 days before you get to court and your judge gives your kid back with conditions your husband is out of the house until he gets therapy. Worst case scenario, you can lose your kids.
So, set the morality aside. Set everything else aside.
Tell the husband tonight he needs to leave the house until he gets therapy about this issue and proves it to you. (Make sure and have someone around when you do this, so that he doesn’t take it out on you). Or, if you have the courage, tell him to move out and you want a divorce. That would be my course of action.
Following the advice of the Doms here may well save your marriage, but the risk is too high and the costs if the risk hits are not something worth paying.
BTW, when I say “this issue” I am NOT talking about him being a sub, wanting to wear undewear, etc. I’m talking about him forcing his sexual thoughts on unwilling persons. It’s assaultive. Period.
And before the pro-dom police come out and tell me I’m being moralistic…I have been in plenty of relationships where I was the dominant partner (to the point of making the man wear more than women’s underwear and do more than anyone here has suggested) and plenty of relationships involving other kinks. I’m very pro-kink.
Kink IS NOT THE ISSUE HERE. It’s the man’s lack of boundaries. A lack of boundaries that will screw up not only his life and the life of his victims, but the life of his wife and kids.
One last word, you do come across as both frustrated and disgusted, which I totally get. But it might help your case if you clarified you didn’t regard him as a pervert for the underwear or the dom tendencies, but you regarded him as a pervert for the forcing his sexuality on others who weren’t willing partners. I think there is a train of thought here that you are not being GGG on the domination thing. But I can also read your letter as you being GGG on that issue, but think the perversion is in his activities in public.
#169, could you please tell what he could be charged with? I am totally naive to legal side of this. Thank you so much.
They’re not as pretty, but the dimensions are almost the same and they’re waaaay less expensive than the Fascinator Throes:
http://www.babyproofingplus.com/item1496…
Which makes me wonder why the heck the Fascinator Throes are so much money. Oh wait, the shame tax.
Holy bejeezus. No laughter on this thread, huh? Look, based on the letters:
#1 needs to divorce him. He’s a selfish asshole whether he’s lying or not. And whether she’s lying or not, she’s still unhappy so she should STILL divorce him.
#2 that girl is whacked. But I’ve found Astroglide coupons in the Sunday newspaper before!
#3 I would’ve laughed my ass off if any of my exes called making that request. What a douche.
I still love you Dan. Someday I won’t be broke and I can buy some computer speakers for your podcast.
@ 155 and 156
I don’t know if you are really MHIO or not, but you are really misrepresenting my comments.
I never said that you are frigid, for instance. I said that we could not know from you letter whether you were GGG and that the tone of your letter and its disdain for your husband’s fetish suggested otherwise.
I also never said it was OK to abuse salesclerks. In fact, I said just the opposite a number of times. To make a point I did describe a scenario – which I noted was unlikely – in which even this was not what it seemed. I never said that is how it went down, I just pointed out that we couldn’t know. (And yes, having been propositioned myself by salesclerks, they are not always victims.)
If you are MHIO, than you know more than we do about the situation and are not just looking at the printed letter. So why not share with us some details that put to rest some questions? For instance, Dan has noted that your husband could engage in his fetish more sensibly and consensually with a willing partner (paid or volunteer) outside the marriage. Have you two tried this? Is that OK with you?
When you talk to him, what is it that turns him on about what he is doing? Does he say he is seeking more extreme situations than your role-play? Or does he get off on the exposure? If it is the latter, have you two considered exposing him to an old school chum who lives in another city or some other more discrete alternative?
Finally, you say now that feel misled because your husband said it was only your secret before you married. Based on my experience it is more likely that your inexperienced husband believed that when you married – either because it was true or he believed it to be true in his lack of self-knowledge – than that he misled you. You say that you have gone above and beyond satiating his fetish within the relationship; if this is so, then obviously it wasn’t true when your husband told you that. But it was almost certainly what he believed. People find out more about themselves as they go on. They grow and change. Take it from someone who has been married way longer than you: Working on growing together and nurturing each other to grow healthfully is a big part of what marriage is all about.
My best advice for you would be my advice for him:
A) Your souse’s perceived wrongs, slights, or failures DO NOT excuse you from meeting YOUR responsibilities in the marriage.
B) You need to step into your spouses shoes and try to see the world from their angle.
C) Always try to be the bigger person, and remember that if it was worth marrying, it is worth working like hell to make the marriage work.
Good luck.
Vanilla Swirl, Im having a hard time believeing you really mean what you say. I CANNOT believe you last comments are, my spouses “slights” do not excuse me from meeting my responsiblities in the marriage. I should be the bigger person and work like hell. Where do my husband responsibilities come in to play or when should he work like hell for the marraige. You seem to imply that is the woman duty to please her man, no matter what the circumstance, thats fucking bullshit. When I signed up for this deal, marriage, I signed up for a rather unusual sex life that was monogamous. When I had children with this man, that was still the deal. So all your bullshit talk of how I need to be sensitive to his needs and I need to live up to my responsibilties, Fuck you, sorry, I had to say it. My husband is not sensitive to those other womens feeling, or mine! I did go far and above trying to satisfy him in house and look where that got me. NO, I am not comfortable “hiring” someone to please my husband. My husband operates on his ultimate needs what he desires most, not what is best for his marraige or his children, but what is best for him. That does not work in a marriage. This situation, as you make it out to be, is not all about my husband and his needs, wants and desires. Not once did you ask, does he indulge you in your fantasies, does he please you? NO, you tell me I need top try harder, vomit.
I would go with vinyl sheets underneath the Fascinator Throes if you’re a really copious ejaculator. The moisture-proof barrier inside the throes is not, in my experience, moisture-proof.
@ 174.
You need to get to work on the anger yesterday. Otherwise you may wind up making a decision that is detrimental to your kids and yourself because you are so caught up in it.
Sadly, I really think this won’t have a happy ending. Which means you have to be the big person, hustle into therapy so someone can help you do the hard work to set the anger aside (Been there. Done that.) so that your kids will benefit from your having a clear head to make the hard decisions that lead toward the least bad resolution.
Good luck.
@174
Yeah, what mjesf said. The vast majority of posters here are in your corner.
Now, I’m not surprised at all by your anger, and you have every right to be. But when we’re angry, whether it be the slow-burn or white-hot variety, we’re liable to make mistakes. Dan’s advice is good advice, begin to DTMFA. It’s not as easy to do as to write, so you need all your wits about you.
Good luck from me as well.
*Applauds Sex Positive Lawyer*
And in case any of the English Comprehension snarks were about my run-on sentence, I DID IT ON PURPOSE!
mwah hahahahahaaa!
Seriously though, people only start picking on spelling and grammar when their logic crumbles. I know, because I’ve done it myself.
Where did Marrena go, anyhow?
Here Hear!
I would like to third the benevolent good-luck-wishing to MHIO.
I hope you find some relief to your plight, soon.
@174: Seems to me like Vanilla is being pretty reasonable. S/he has stated that there simply isn’t enough information to suggest that you’ve been GGG and you’re responding with some pretty strained interpretations of his/her post(s). For instance, I don’t think you could argue that at any point they’ve “implied that it’s the women’s duty to please their man”. And not JUST because what they imply isn’t fully under their control.
In short: You need to calm down, you’re giving us all diabetes.
wife of husband,
You’ve been given a crappy situation, and Vanilla Swirl couple is grasping at straws. S/he is going out of his/her way to find possible excuses for bad behavior. The possibility that your husband’s behavior is anything other than morally reprehensible are so unlikely that it’s laughable. I suspect Vanilla Swirl clings to these possibilities because s/he thinks that criticizing *one* person with a fetish for bad behavior is the same as criticizing the fetish itself. Rather than admit that people with his/her fetish are capable of evil things, s/he decided to shift the blame to you.
You probably know all of this, of course. But I thought I’d say it so that you knew you that someone else agrees that you’ve done all you can. If I read things correctly, the majority of people on this thread are going with the most likely scenario–namely that you are entirely in the right.
Of course, if arguing with Vanilla Swirl helps you blow of steam when you desperately need to, then ignore me. 🙂
She married a freak. What did she expect? Lubricant bottle. Who cares! Dan you must edit letters for publication ( I’m sure you must for space purposes ) because your analysis of the mattress guy was remarkable since the letter didn’t give any real clues to support you. Maybe he just wants to be on Judge Judy.
Wife of husband: out of curiosity, aside from his sexual deviancy, has he shown any particular signs of being Really Bad at picking up social clues?
Vanilla Swirl’s just caught up in defending his/their own kink, but it’s not the kink that’s at issue here, it’s breaking agreements with one’s partner and acting crazy inappropriate with neighbors and coworkers, or at least claiming to have done so. I hope MHIO works it out.
To #183 Yes, I think my husband is a tad bit delusional, thinking all women want to be involved with him sexually and not even that, but they want to make fun of him and see him in panties. He has told me he thinks all women, or should I say, any women he is attracted to, would love to sexually humilate him. He thinks all women are into this stuff! He has said things that scare me like, He could tell the Victorias Secret salesgirl was into by the way she looked at him, freaky. Or the women he emailed from work, telling her that he needed to confide in her a deep dark embarrasing secret. I asked him why on earth do you think she would be into this shit and he said, Well she did want to know my deep dark embarrasing secret, and of course she knew I was talking about the fact that I have a small penis and like to wear womens panites. These women do not know of his intentions, and then he drops the bomb, that they cant see coming.
er, what I meant was, *aside* from the “oh, every woman in the world wants to sexually humiliate me” delusion, has he shown signs of being Really Bad at responding to social cues? For example, will he say rude or inappropriate things, then be baffled when people get annoyed at him? Does he tend to dress over-formally or over-casually for events, and not necessarily in a consistent pattern? Will he keep talking to someone who’s obviously trying to ignore him?… this could indicate a different kind of problem than if his only social blunders are the sex stuff.
Hey #186, no he is not inappropriate in other settings. If anything is very quiet in social situation, doesnt have much to say. So it makes it even more bizarre how brazen he is regarding his sexual desires. The people who really know him, family, friends would be BLOWN away if they knew. He comes off as extremely quiet, and polite.
@181 DianeLGD
@184 Joon
I was neither grasping at straws or caught up defending my kink, I was merely pointing out to a hysterical lynch mob that they were assuming a great deal of facts not in evidence.
I always maintained that if the dark, nightmare scenarios that were feverishly pouring onto this board were true that there is no excuse for MHIO’s husband’s behavior (indeed, that he was responsible for its shitty sides even if the full circumstances were less appalling than people had assumed) and I always allowed it might be true. (You may have noticed, for instance, that I never criticized Dan’s advice to MHIO, since he may well know more than he shared about the situation. But you and I can only go by what he did share which did not support what was being said.)
My difference with the two of you and your pitch-fork wielding cohorts on this board has been that I am willing to entertain other possible scenarios and have not rushed to judgement based on the scanty facts provided in the letter.
And while my own experiences in the world of submissive cross-dressing humiliation fetishist has fed my skepticism, the truth is that I would have had the same reaction (and have) to other situations, even those where I find the behavior in question disgusting. The thing is I am something of sucker for due process and methodical reasoning and deeply suspicious of the kind of hyperventilating bullshit that has characterized some of the other commenters here.
Now we have a poster – wifeofhusband – who claims to be MHIO herself and is providing us with all sorts of new information. IF s/he is who s/he says she is, (and I personally remain skeptical – the limits of the Internet) then the new information answers all kinds of questions and shuts down all kinds of scenarios. But I still don’t see how that excuse the rest of you for dismissing them all out of hand and assuming the worst from the word go.
@174 & 185
Assuming for the moment you are MHIO as you claim, I’ll chalk up your earlier wild distortions of my position to your understandable emotional state. (I will also address you here on the assumption you are MHIO.)
Let me get this out of the way right up front: Posts #174 and #185 contain all kinds of exactly the information about the circumstances around your husband’s behavior that I have been pointing out we did not have. (As I said in my earlier post to you, you know a lot more about the situation than we do.) In light of these revelations, I stand by what I said at the get go: If he is compelling women to be part of his scene without their consent there is no excuse for that and he does indeed need a cold slap of reality followed by therapy.
I also stand by my advice to you in my previous post, but it seems you misunderstood me, so let me try to clarify. Let’s start with some reassurances of what I was NOT saying: A wife does not have some greater duty to please her husband than he has to please her. Indeed, to my way of thinking the idea is repugnant. Nor does any spouse have a duty “no matter what the circumstances;” we can all think of some circumstances that void the whole implied marital contract.
What I was saying and am saying is this, and I am sorry if you don’t like to hear it: Everyone is first and foremost responsible for their own behavior. Your husband is responsible for anything and everything he has done that is asshole, wrong, and vile. He has no one to blame but himself and that would be true no matter how light or serious his offenses were. And also this applies to you.
Maybe you haven’t done anything at all wrong in this; (how would I know?) that is not relevant to my point. You cannot use his misbehavior as an excuse for not doing the right thing yourself; two wrongs do not make a right. Surely you teach your children the same?
Back to what I am not saying: I am not saying that this means you need to put up with his bullshit or be his doormat. If as you (now, finally) tell us you both agreed to a monogamous relationship and he has been behaving with contempt for that very basic agreement than you are indeed wronged and shouldn’t take it.
What you should do is, yes, be the bigger person and meet you responsibilities as he fails to meet his. Your responsibilities in the current situation are to demand respect from him, insist he stop his attempts to cheat on you, and try to help him with his problem. How do you help? Demand he go to therapy, go to counseling together, have many long honest conversations in which you try to find a way to work it out. Being the bigger person means not taking the bait he offers by getting petty in these conversations; it means not lashing back viciously when he does something that hurts you; and yes, it means not belittling his fetish and sexuality as a way to get back at him for betraying your trust. (And it may mean at least considering for debate some solutions you clearly aren’t thrilled with.)
The troublesome thing about marriage is that while everyone is responsible for their own behavior, your spouses (regardless of gender) problem is your problem too and spouses are do have a duty to rise above sacrifice “me” for “us” even in many circumstances where their partner is being an selfish, self-absorbed, shit head. No, it is not fair. Life is not fair.
The duty is not unlimited (not “under any circumstances”) and it is your call when the threshold is crossed, when the fight becomes pointless, (and no one on this board can possibly know how much you have already tried) but (as I was saying) any marriage worth entering into is worth fighting for. Dan gave you some advice about how to fight for your marriage. (You will note that he did not tell you to DTMFA, move and change the locks – and he has shown no hesitation about giving that advice to others.) Whether you want to or not is your call. My advice, (and Dan’s I believe) are offered with kindness and good intentions.
P.S. – By the way, your concern now seems to be very different from that expressed in your letter (at least as printed by Dan). In that letter, your concern seemed to be that your husband was revealing his sexual preferences outside of the marriage – being “out” as you said in you sign-off – and the risk to status and reputation implied. Now your concern is that your husband is trying to initiate extramarital dalliances despite your objection and his previous promises to you – to cheat in other words.
No doubt (if you are who you claim to be) these worries jumbled together in your angst. But they are very different issues and you need to be clear with yourself about what you can and can’t live with if you are going to negotiate (yes, that is what I said – that is what marital arguments and ultimatums are) with your husband successfully to bring him back in line and save your marriage. I hope that you do.
@164 avast2006
Actually, all we still have is the letter. There is someone on this thread claiming to be MHIO who may or may not be. If they are and what they say is correct – well, I’ve already covered that (more than once, really.)
As I said in the postscript of my last reply to “wifeishusband,” this whole thing about it being about infidelity is really a shift from what was being discussed at first. Again, if it is about fidelity, I’ve covered that.
What I find interesting are you explicit assumptions that if one spouse is monogamous and the other is not that is ipso facto cheating, and that “cheating” is unacceptable in all circumstances. The first assumption is totally ridiculous and second one counter to Dan’s repeated admonitions.
The trouble with you is that you are a conclusion looking for an argument. You decided first he was a monster and now look for any old excuse to set him ablaze.
My own judgements are conditional based on the facts. IF (and it is a significant if – here on the Internet I could claim to be Vlad Putin) ‘wifeishusband” is really MHIO and it all went down like she says, that leads to one conclusion. If the facts not supplied in the column are different we could end up at some very different outcomes.
You start with the end and work back, I work forward and let the chips fall where they may. Sorry to rain on you tea-party rally, but I will stick with my way.
hahaha, now disagreeing with the previous poster makes us not just a pitchfork-and-torch-wielding mob, but tea partiers as well.
ahhh, the ad hominem attack, province of those who have nothing else to bring to the discussion.
@126 female ejaculate doesn’t shoot out of one’s pussy!
190: Yes, precisely. All we have is the letter. It’s either the letter, or setting the letter aside and making shit up out of our own heads. Your whole take on “not in evidence” is laughable. Her recounting of the situation MIGHT be fictional, but I absolutely guarantee that yours is, no matter which way you spin it.
I have no reason to attempt to prove one way or the other what actually happened (this is not a court of law), but merely to respond to the situation as if it were hypothetically true. Which is exactly what she is doing. Whether or not it actually happened the way she described, she utterly BELIEVES that to be the case and is responding accordingly. Of course she believes it. Why would she write in, asking advice on how to respond to something that she knew didn’t actually happen the way she wrote? Similarly, why would Dan withhold parts of the letter that would cast it in an entirely less sinister light, and then proceed to give advice based on the darker interpretation? What would be the utility in either of those? You still haven’t addressed the idea that he is, at very best, fooling her most cruelly.
You, on the other hand, are going into this determined to disbelieve everything — indeed to present every possible scenario except the one that she wrote — in a transparent attempt to excuse behavior that, wonder of wonders, coincides with your own kink.
As to whether it is about infidelity or about grossly inappropriate behavior: it can easily be about both at the same time — grossly inappropriate, extramarital behavior. It isn’t her responsbility to lay out all factors in dissertation style. She is unhappy with his sexual misconduct, and there is plenty of it to go around. If you want to accuse Dan of editing for brevity, that would be a lot better reason to suspect him.
I do have to clarify, these are not situation involving fantasy, all the situations occured. Many more things have happened as well, that I did not include in the letter. What makes this situation even more difficult to deal with, is my husband told me, No,the coworkers did not know what was going on. I assumed because he approached them sexually, the women must have been involved, consenting to his advances. He made it very clear, the women did not know what he was talking about, he was just hoping they would be into it. He assumed because he saw our neighbor undressing, that must mean she wanted him to call her so she could sexually humilate him. It is very humiliating walking around with your husband and children in public and being terrified that you will run into one of the women that my husabnd has been inappropriate with. It would be a very different story if my husband told me, yes I cheated and the woman I did it with was so into my fetish. What he is telling me, is he does not care if the women is into it, he approahes them and hopes that to be the case. I feel he abuses these women, using them in hopes they will humiliate him sexually and he abuses me, I did not sign up for an open marriage. And I am afraid, one day he will approach the wrong woman and either face trouble with the lawa or get his ass kicked by an angry husband/boyfriend, because some of the he approached have men in there lives.
@191
The tea-party reference may have been a bit over the top, but really the “logic” Avast2006 and many others have been displaying – in which they render judgment from an emotional gut reaction first and then fumble for any pretext to cling to the moral certainty of that judgment – is one of the defining characteristics of our TP friends. My reference was intended in as a criticism of the reasoning Avast2006 as using, not as an ad hominem Still, the TP does have many other connotations and it seems like overkill on the Savage Love board so I regret using it. I apologize to one and all.
I am a bit surprised to see YOU take offense, however. Weren’t you the one who said I “have a very hard time” separating fantasy from reality? Who dismissed me as “just caught up in defending” my own provincial kink? Who conflated my legitimate questions about background context with the stereotypical “she was asking for it” language of rape apologists? Seems a bit late for you to cry foul.
As long as we are chatting, I want to ask about something else you wrote. I agree with you that nonconsensual activity is always wrong and also that there is nothing wrong with fetishes like MHIO’s husbands. (I’m not at all certain that everyone else on this thread agrees with the second part, but let’s not worry about that.) What I am not so clear on is when you talk about everything being “OK in the realm of fantasy.” Again, I agree, and to the extent that you are discussing non-consensual activity fantasy is the limit we should all observe. But do you also mean to say that the activities discussed should remain fantasy even if the contacts are consensual?
This is the nub of one of the points I have been trying to make to what appears to be widespread (but thankfully not universal) outrage here. There are scenarios in which conversations with people who happen to be coworkers, neighbors, and even salesclerks that are frank about your sexuality can be consensual. When a fetishist can be “out,” as MHIO put it. Whatever the facts in MHIO’s specific case do you at least accept that there are cases when it could be OK for a fetishist to be open about her/his preferences? Or do you believe fetishes are a matter of shame and fetishists need to stay closeted?
Hubby sounds stupid, delusional, predatory, or all of the above. You said that you confronted him and he blew you off, did you say something to the effect of “you are abusing unsuspecting bystanders, you scumbag,” or left it at “I am upset by your behavior, you scumbag?” Still a bad husband if he’s ignoring your feelings, but if you’ve told him that he is seriously behaving like a sexual predator and he still sees no problem, he’s probably restraining order material.
Vanilla Swirl Couple @195: You asked the question “Are you arguing that it is never, ever, appropriate to try to find out who that attractive person you caught a glimpse of is so that you might strike up an acquaintance and make a pass at them?” You asked basically the same thing in msg#195. I brought up monogamy to answer that question. The answer is: FOR THIS COUPLE, no, it is never, ever appropriate. The reason is that their monogamy makes it inappropriate, kink or no kink. If they had a relationship that allowed for that sort of thing, she would have mentioned it.
And no, bringing up monogamy does not count as moving the goalposts. If anything, you are the one moving the goalposts by making it about the broadest possible general principles, rather than her specific situation. What the answer is for other couples is entirely irrelevant, because other couples didn’t write in.
@194
If this is the case, (and you are MHIO) then I do not think that either infidelity or public embarrassment or an angry boyfriend is your main problem. I think the problem is that your husband is a deeply damaged individual who needs extensive treatment and possibly commitment immediately. I am not a psychiatrist, but anyone who is doesn’t care about the pain they inflict on strangers and is unrepentant about it should not be walking around the streets unmedicated. Further, that he openly taunts you about his intention and attempts to be get outside sex despite your strong objections sounds like spousal abuse to me.
The question for you now is whether you want to work it out or not. If you do, I suggest you follow Dan’s advice without delay. See the lawyer and get the papers rolling TODAY. You may also want to consider moving out or making him do so while the intervention goes down. If you feel that the continuing in marriage with this guy is a non-starter, (that the fight to save the marriage is hopeless, in other words), you should skip the demands and just serve the papers.
That’s my two cents and if you really are MHIO I wish you the best of luck.
There is nothing wrong with cross-dressing, “forced” or otherwise, erotic humiliation, etc. I myself have a lover who enjoys playing those games. There is, further, nothing wrong with fantasizing about your neighbors, your coworkers, or salesladies at the underwear store. Based on the letter, however–and this is all we have to go on, despite your many projections–this guy is approaching women in a highly inappropriate, possibly legally actionable manner, and implicating his non-consenting wife in this activity, and all the sex-positivity in the world does not excuse this. I know it’s easy to be defensive about this kink–I know the difficulty my lover had in coming out to people and his struggle for acceptance of himself as a whole person, people can be terribly judgemental. There is nothing wrong with being “out” unless that violates a previous agreement with one’s spouse. However, I stand by my statement that this guy’s behavior is completely out of line–toward his wife and toward the other women he’s involved. Your many desperate assertions that these women were probably into it anyway reflect a view shaped by your own desires, and while I understand how that can happen, it’s still speculation and projection. I do want to commend you, however, for taking back the whole “tea party” thing…it’s easy to fall back on insults and ad hominem attacks when dealing with a situation that is obviously so emotional and personal for you.
So I wrote a long, thoughtful response, and it didn’t post. Here is a recap:
I do not at all believe fetishes should be closeted. Discussion of sexual matters of any kind, vanilla or kinky, are inappropriate in some contexts, however.
I don’t “take offense” at your attacks on myself or any other poster–but I stand by my assertion that you are doing a lot of assuming and projecting on this particular subject. I understand how this can happen, though–I have a lover who’s a lifestyle (not just sexual) crossdresser and I know how hard it has been for him to find acceptance of himself as a whole person. It’s easy to get caught up in personal insults/ad hominem type attacks when the subject is so personal and emotional to you, I commend you for realizing that your “tea party” comparison was non-applicable.
199=long verson
200=short version
joon=short on sleep (and patience) today
#193 & 197
But the letter does not say what you claim it does. That is my entire point.
The letter does not give us the context or information to decide if “grossly inappropriate contact” (or even infidelity”) are at issue. We do not know what the relationship with the coworker is, what his efforts to make the neighbors acquaintance consisted of, what the conversation was that led up to the revelation to the salesclerk, etc., etc. And no, we also do not know what the agreements or conversations were around monogamy. Without that context we can’t make the judgments you make. It is outrageous to suggest that I’m trying to excuse IMHO’s husband’s behavior. (Have you even READ my posts?) I have always allowed that the scenario you subscribe to might be true, but you seem driven to deny that any other is even possible.
I have always accepted the text of the letter as true (“hypothetically” or otherwise) and never implied it was bogus. I suggested (based on my experience in the scene) that there was a very good chance MHIO’s husband was lying to her, but that doesn’t challenge the letter at all. (And if I wasn’t clear: Yes, the husband is being a asshole if he did that.) It is precisely the ‘making shit up out of their heads’ by the people on this board I have challenged. The letter says, for instance, that “He told me that he could see our neighbor undressing…”, it is a looong leap from that to the stalker/peeper creeping around the bushes with a telescopic lens and all the dire angry statements about legal jeopardy.
You say that if I read the letter enough I’ll see that MHIO is monogamous. (A question I never asked, by the way.) Sorry, I’ve read and read, I don’t see that statement. Now you once again (#197) refuse to answer my question as to whether it would ever by acceptable for someone to be open about their kink to neighbors, coworkers, and salesclerks by even more vigorously dodging to monogamy. Even though we don’t know from the letter what the agreement was on monogamy in this marriage. Even though we don’t know what the context was that might have made any such agreement untenable, etc., etc. (Ever read Dan Savage?)
Like I said, if “wifeofhusband” is MHIO then the issue is settled because she has provided the details that the printed letter has not. But if “wifeishusband” is not MHIO you should be more judicious and stop takeing sides in the dispute based on what is in your own head rather than in the letter.
P.S. I’m not clear how I could be “accusing” Dan of anything. He has already said more than once that he edits the letters and often knows a lot more than what appears on the page, etc. I could no more “accuse” him of that than I could “accuse’ him of being gay. If you have a problem with that, pick the fight with him in your own name, not mine (ours).
@195
Everyone is outraged because the husband is clearly doing non-consensual shit.
There’s a big difference between being open about your fetishes, and forcing unconsenting people to participate in them. Most of my friends know that I’m into BDSM. Some have even given me bondage gear for holiday gifts. Close friends and I freely discuss and joke about our fetishes with each other.
I do not invite my friends over and surprise them with my partner bound and gagged on the sofa. I do not tell my co-workers in excruciating detail about the ways I like to be humiliated and omg isn’t that so humiliating? I don’t call my neighbor out of the blue and describe a threesome fantasy specifically involving said neighbor.
The “bad husband” could openly go lingerie shopping without being a complete creep. There’s a big jump between asking the sales staff “hey, do you have the pink lace panties in a larger size?” and “hey, let me tell you about my humiliatingly small penis.”
I’m glad I came back to this thread. Thank you, MistressRo and Vanilla Swirl Couple.
And wifeofhusband, I’m glad you posted here.
@199/200/201
Thank you Joon, but you’ll need to forgive me for disagreeing that I am assuming or projecting all that much. In fact, I think it is everyone else who has been. Like I’ve said ad infinitum, if it went done the way some folks think it did (and did if “wifeishusband” is for real) than he is totally wrong and needs serious help.
But the letter really, just does not say that and all I’ve been saying is that we should NOT assume what is not in the letter. Assumptions in your own recent posts that are not in the letter include:
– The couple agreed to be exclusive.
– The wife has been GGG enough that it is unreasonable for the husband to void or ignore an exclusivity agreement.
– That each of the two “encounters” (coworker and salesclerk) were non-consensual.
– That the husband’s intentions to the neighbor was also non-consensual.
None of that is in the letter.
And while I appreciate your kindly meant words of empathy, the plain truth is that I have found the tendency of people on this thread to dismiss or frame everything I say based on the fact that I share the man’s kink condescending at best. What I really would have like is for someone to actually engage me on the merits of my points by, say, showing me the part of the letter where MHIO says that “we agreed that we would be exclusive,” or the passage to the effect of: “I am GGG and totally worked with him to keep us both sexually satisfied and be the emasculating bitch of his dreams,” or the sentence that reads: “every night he stares out the window with the lights out watching our neighbor,” or the one “he just dropped the bomb on this poor salesclerk. He told me she was disgusted and horrified…” or “my husband barely knows the coworker…”
(If you doubt my willingness to accept new facts, I will point out that some of these things have been said subsequently by “wifeishusband, claiming to be MHIO and I have said that this information changes everything. Despite my [easing] suspicions that “wifeishusband” was not who they say but merely another jerk reigning sorrow on the woman by usurping her identity I have always treated her with the respect I would give to MHIO just in case.)
Finally, I have to end on an even angrier note of discord between us: I have NEVER, NEVER, ever, once asserted (desperately or otherwise) that “these women were probably into it anyway.” I never said it, I never thought it, I never believed. I only allowed for the fact that we didn’t have the information to know and it was POSSIBLE. I don’t believe I ever even claimed it was likely. (And BTW, not shaped by my desires, but actual experience – just like your own non-“desperate” judgment.) Talk about projecting!
I’m sorry that you are still not willing to admit that it is even POSSIBLE that you could have made any error in your rush to judgment. But I don’t think that gives you license to misrepresent my comments so maliciously. I am really offended that you would ascribe such a sentiment to me.
PS – Sorry to hear about you tech problems in getting the long response up . The same thing happened to me on my last response to Avast2006 and my replacement was more rushed and less thoughtful then my initial try. I sympathize.
@ 203
Quote: “There’s a big jump between asking the sales staff “hey, do you have the pink lace panties in a larger size?” and “hey, let me tell you about my humiliatingly small penis.””
Exactly! There is. And that is my point. The letter doesn’t tell us which it is and all these people are leaping to conclusions.
@205:
All of the things that you say are not explicitly in the letter and therefore cannot be assumed are the general societal and personal defaults. Each one of those items would be a bigger stretch to assume in the other direction. Some of them are mind-bogglingly stupid to assume in the other direction. (“Because I saw her undressing through an open curtain, that means she wants me.” *rolls eyes*)
Here is the letter that she would have had to write for your interpretation to be correct. And yes, this would all have to be explicitly in the letter, or according to your rules we could not assume any of it:
Dear Dan,
“My husband and I have an open relationship. He is allowed to approach other women to meet his sexual needs. In fact, he has been cultivating several women for quite a while now: a coworker, a salesgirl at Victoria’s Secret, and the neighbor who allows him to watch her undress through a window. All of them seem quite close with him, and I’m sure that they all are quite receptive to his advances, and can’t wait to humiliate him and his undersized package.”
If all of the above were true, if he were playing by the rules of their marriage, why would she be writing in to complain about him as ““a fucking asshole and a pervert who is violating me, our marriage, and other women”“
Your gee-maybe-it’s-not-so-bad-as-all-that scenario simply does not compute.
@203
The original letter DOES tell us which it is. She says, “He goes to Victoria’s Secret and tells the salesgirls he is being punished by his wife for wearing her panties and that I am “forcing him” to go buy some of his own.”
The guy dragged the sales staff into his fantasy by making a big production of shopping. He could have just made his purchase and left without telling the staff a humiliating story.
Oops, I meant to say @206.
I just want to say that I feel f*cking terrible for both parties in this situation. The wife is in way over her head and scared of the repercussions of her husband’s actions, the husband is going to possibly lose his family and then face the prospect of finding another partner(s) who are able to participate in or at least tolerate his kink, not to mention how miserable it must be to be in the grip of a powerful sexual compulsion over which you don’t have control.
VanillaSwirl, how can you say anyone here is making any more assumptions than you are? All we have to go on here is the original letter that was published in the column. I understand that this whole discussion may cause you to feel as if you are being attacked. I think most of the readers here are pretty openminded sexually (other than a few stupid anons who chimed in with “she married a freak, hurr hurr, what did she expect”) and no one is bashing kinky people in general or crossdressers who like to be humiliated specifically…most, however, seem to be fully against nonconsensually involving other people in your kink. I refer to the wife here as well as to salesladies, neighbors, and coworkers. If the wife is, as you speculated, not making an effort to participate at all, or breaking some agreement that they had made as a couple, and the neighbor, coworker, and salesladies were all into it, then all that’s off the table…but that’s not how it was stated in the letter, which is, as I said, the only thing we have to go on here.
I, for one, like VSC’s arguments. It’s commendable for him/her to take a strong stand in favor of rational thought, due process, honest conversation, and the value in preserving a marriage. It’s nice to hear someone upholding those principles as fundamental to all marriages including troubled ones.
This panties-wearing guy does seem to be dangerously delusional and removed from reality, though. Clearly, his wife should do the difficult thing and have some unpleasant and straightforward conversations with him, in the most positive/productive way possible, and push for counseling. If it’s as she describes, they definitely do have a problem, because his behavior is making her seriously uncomfortable (which is reason enough for it to be a problem), and has the potential to get them in trouble with the law and affect their daughter’s welfare.
The problem probably won’t go away on its own, and solving it won’t be fun! But it might work out well in the end and lead to a marriage that is still good and fun (and maybe even better).
@210
Joon, you seem like a decent person and I share your sorrow for the couple. It appears from my reading to be far from universal on here where most people feel immediately into “kill the monster” mode and reacted with vitriol when I suggested that they slow down a be a little humble about what they don’t know.
Again, I have not made any assumptions that I notice. What assumptions have i made? Have I assumed that the husband was not guilty, uh, no. Have I assumed that any of the encounters were consensual? No. Assumed they were non-consensual? No. Assumed that the marriage was open or closed? No and no. Assumed that the the wife was either callous or GGG? Double no again. Hey, I’m the guy who refused even to assume that the husband wasn’t lying his ass off to the wife. About the only thing I have assumed is that the letter writer was sincere.
So you show me my assumptions. Really, I want to know. I listed a few of what I saw as yours for you; why not return the favor? You refer to how things are stated in the letter, but that is my whole point, I don’t read it that way at all. If I have misread the letter, show me where.
(And while you are at it, I am still waiting for you to show me the part where I said the I believed anyone was “asking for it.”)
A quote, copied and pasted from a response of yours:
(Hell, for all we know the VS salesclerk asked him if they were for him and flirted with him about it first. Very unlikely, I agree, but not unheard of.)
Your defensiveness makes it nearly impossible to have a coherent discussion with you, so let’s just agree to disagree. I think the letter sounds like a guy forcing his kink on other people, to the distress of his wife, you think the letter sounds like a frigid, angry wife who isn’t doing enough to indulge her husband’s perfectly acceptable desires. Subjectivity, it is really all we have in a situation like this, isn’t it?
@207
Really? It’s your default presumption that people who write into Dan Savage – Dan fucking Savage – are all in exclusive, monogamous relationships unless they say otherwise? Huh. (And people are saying I’m making assumptions.)
And it is a general societal default that if a man shares a deep, sex-related secret with someone it is probably a stranger forcing unwanted confidences rather than a close friends edging towards intimacy or a flirty stranger open to hook-ups? Maybe in your society, not in mine. (Actually, in my world we are generally shocked when someone behaves to your defaults. You must live in a sad, sad place that you have to assume such misbehavior in the people around you.)
Also, what is the deal with this piece of gibberish from you:
“”Because I saw her undressing through an open curtain, that means she wants me.” *rolls eyes*”
Has anyone suggested that such a reaction would be at all rational? I know I never have.
I don’t believe I have criticized the initial letter so much I have criticized people like you for reading your own personal biases and baggage into it. But it is not so hard to imagine that any standard Dan letter bit about “I accept his fetish, I do and I’ve tried to make it work, but now he wants to go outside of the marriage and he promised he never would,” could have made the whole thing way clearer. This kind of stuff appears in the Dan column all the time (Apparently because not everyone shares your defaults.) so I don’t think it as onerous to include as you do.
It is too bad that the writer did not include this and other similar stock Dan column letter info, but I’m not knocking her. Whatever the facts are she and her husband are clearly in a difficult spot. (And that was before complete strangers like you started baying for the blood of her husband.)
If you read the letter as written, the writer’s main concern is that her HUSBAND IS OUT (did you miss that part?) in that he is letting other people know (strangers, coworkers, neighbors) about his kink. She frets specifically about the fact that he implicates her to them, claiming she “forces” him.
Now don’t get me wrong. A husband outing himself like this without the wife’s support is going to be hard on her and send up a lot of warning flags about whether he is treating her fairly and acting responsibly. But I’m supposed to get from that the fact that it is (that she knows, since it mostly based on what he told her) a non-consensual flasher situation in each case? That her main concern is actually that he is planning to have extramarital sex, breaking his vows to her? She writes about how much “worse” his “whatever” fetish is. You know from that – from that – that she has been a long-suffering GGG partner victimized by an egomaniac?
Sorry, I don’t see it. Oh, I see how you could speculate that that MAY be the case, and it may. (Hell, if “wifeofhusband” really is MHIO, it is the case.) But know it for sure? Certain enough to rule out that he may not be quite as much of a jerk as his angry, distraught wife thinks him? Certain enough to rule out the conclusively that she may be a coauthor of her tragedy?
She may be. He may be. It may be. But the letter will bear several scenarios and there are more than enough warning flags the other way to make me wonder. Sorry we can’t all enjoy the perfection of closed mind that you do.
P.S.: Warning flags, by the way are a call for more investigation to find the facts and should be taken as a warning against leaps of faith based on your personal prejudices (even dressed up as “defaults”) as much as an alert that something is awry.
@213
Joon, did you read that quote form my post? Read it again with the parts I’ve capped for emphasis:
(Hell, FOR ALL WE KNOW the VS salesclerk asked him if they were for him and flirted with him about it first. VERY UNLIKELY I AGREE, but not unheard of.)
Further, the context (#149) clearly shows that this is offered as an example of the LIMITS of what could hypothetically be possible in light of the letter text – not a declaration that such a thing is what happened. (I even label it very unlikely, even though I’ve had personal experience of it, because I don’t think it at all likely.) From this you allege my: “many desperate assertions that these women were probably into it anyway”?!?!
And what is this from you?:
“..you think the letter sounds like a frigid, angry wife who isn’t doing enough to indulge her husband’s perfectly acceptable desires.”
Since the one and only time I have said what the letter sounds like to me is @214, and you said this @213 I cannot even fathom how you know what I think the letter sounds like. But to make matters worse, you put into my mouth sentiments I have specifically noted before I have NEVER said. You know it isn’t true that I said such things. (I did say she is angry. I stand by that.) You know I have specifically knocked down such lies before when people slandered me with them before. And yet you repeat them now.
And you wonder that I am defensive.
Let me ask you – in your world is telling lies about people and misquoting them considered somehow more acceptable than ad hominem attacks?
Dull vanilla type here. But I always understood GGG as being about BOTH people being happy. Not about giving one person license to push until the entire relationship is about his enjoyment while the other is miserable, burdened, and not getting any needs met. Whether the pushy person’s needs are ultra mainstream or kinky seems like the LEAST important part of the equation; the problem is the selfishness.
(That, and the felony imposition on uninvolved outsiders. While we’re writing imaginary letters, imagine that he was giving these uninvolved women candy and flowers while asking them to have penile-vaginal sex with him. Removing the kink from the story doesn’t help, does it?)
About the GGG thing–yes, if a woman has strong submissive tendencies, she’s never going to enjoy domming. But aside from those women–your average woman I think would absolutely enjoy FemDom, because FemDom is all about the woman getting exactly what she wants. Everything. She is the boss. You want foreplay? Demand it. You want the subbie husband to do all the housework? Demand it. You want romantic nights out with dinner and dancing? Yours.
Now of course if the crossdressing is a huge turnoff, there’s nothing to be done about that. But it doesn’t sound like that’s an issue here since he’s been crossdressing since they started having sex.
I’m just trying to say that FemDom GGG is pretty damn good for the female newbie, if she’s open to it. All my posts here were just to say the wife should give it her consideration. It sounds like she has, reading her further posts in the comments, so that’s that then, but as far as fetishes go I think it’s pretty easy to accomodate–but that might be my personal inclinations too, so I’m taking myself with a grain of salt.
And yes, my female superiority comment was a joke. *sigh*
Oh my god, Marrena, like there’s no such thing as switching? 😉
I am most likely actually a switch, but have every intention of having thoroughly subversive sub lessons for a while. Empathy training, yo. I’ll top better later, eventually, with that experience. At least, I hope so. And I do like to make people happy…so if I can receive attention while pleasing someone with my servitude? Bonus.
Also, there are games, and there is real life.
“You want the subbie husband to do all the housework? Demand it.”
No, you discuss it as adults outside of games, and if he doesn’t help, you don’t play games.
We now see why femme-dom appeals to YOU, which is awesome, and to be encouraged, but I think it would help you to look more into some of the emotional boundary/psychological aspects of play vs. effective communication vs. real life aka “non-role” time.
And I’ve just made it apparent how very silly I am, and what some of my motivations are. I generally have a hard time choosing sides, so I usually sit on the fulcrum and pick and choose what I like about each duality. I like to explore both.
It has helped me come to the conclusion, that (at least for me), most things are actually on a continuum, not so much a polarity.
There’s fun and games, there’s real life, and there’s pathology. They can all run together, and it is subjective to each person what one can live with and what one can’t. Society is run by certain agreements in value.
What most of us agree on here is:
the hubby of MHIO, while having what could be a very normal, fun, kinky game preference, has chosen to pursue his likes in a manner that crosses over into our society’s definition of pathological.
What MHIO chooses to do is ultimately up to her, but if it were me?
Kids or no kids; or perhaps ~especially because of~ the kids: I’d get the hell out.
Am I the only one who had to laugh over the term “subspace?”
“Lt. Uhura, open a subspace hailing frequency….”
@217
Wow… That’s not really it at all.
You’re not comprehending the distinction between a “sub” and a “slave” and between a “sub” and a “bottom”. A sub enjoys being submissive in sexual play, a slave enjoys being servile in life. Some people are both, and enjoy nothing more than cleaning a house for someone before being their sexual plaything (yippee). But, if you tell a pure sub “go wash the dishes”, he’s going to blanch. If you tell a pure slave “go down on me”, he’s going to blanch. They’re two very different processes.
Besides, the femdom he wants isn’t really close to what you’re thinking about in terms of femdom. Male humiliation play (cuckolding, small-penis humiliation, sissification, CFNM, ect.) is still fundamentally about the male’s responses and feelings. MHIO’s husband isn’t looking to serve his wife (or any woman), he just has a fantasy for being humiliated.
It’s kind of like how some portion of “subs” I’ve met who like ‘rape fantasies’ are actually into the ‘rape’ of being ‘forced to feel pleasure’. It isn’t about serving the person topping you, it’s about being on the receiving end of whatever you want to feel. It’s not submissive, just being a bottom.
VanillaSwirlCouple, all the things you have said are here in black and white, undeniable. Call me what you like–liar, tea-partier, torch-bearer, it doesn’t negate your previous comments.
Is this discussion about your issue with me, a stranger, or is it about this lady’s letter and her problems with her marriage?
@ 217, I’m far from being a submissive woman but I have absolutely no interest in FemDom. I guess I’m just egalitarian. My husband already helps out with housework and laundry and gives me all the foreplay, and everything else, I need. No need for me to “demand” anything.
I still think the husband here is completely selfish and isn’t interested in accomodating any of his wife’s needs or desires. I wish the Wife well with whatever she chooses to do about it.
Vanilla Swirl Couple;
I think the problem here comes from the fact that the woman was asking for help. She wrote to Dan because she was in a situation that she said was deeply disturbing and deeply troubling, because her husband was engaged in sexually criminal behavior.
And you seem to be bent on showing how this could all be her problem.
To me, it feels like (to a much much lesser degree) going to a rape crisis center, and bringing up the possibility to a woman who goes in for counseling, that she might have asked for it, and ways in which his actions could be excusable. If this were a police station, then that would be the right place to do some of that. If she were trying to publicly get others to condemn him, then it might be right to do. But she’s in a possible marriage ending situation. She’s asking for help. We don’t know her husband’s name so there is no possibility of this ruining his reputation. The most likely scenario is that her husband is a complete dill-hole.
In the context of this situation, what you are doing is wrong. The *right * thing to do is to take the wife’s side and believe her.
I’m bitterly disappointed by the people who can’t agree to disagree with Marrena without questioning the motives behind her advice and twisting her words. Marrena gave what she thought was useful and effective advice to achieve the best possible outcome given the scenario. Feel free to disagree, but don’t accuse her of “projecting” or “condoning” or “rewarding” the man’s behavior. She thought her advice was helpful. If you don’t think it is, you’re entitled to that opinion, but random speculations about her motives are pointless.
The fact that the man is telling his wife about these encounters, and that she hasn’t corroborated that his testimonies are true, tells me that he may be making this up. He very likely wants punishment. So I would disagree with Marrena’s method because he probably wants to be punished, and thus punishing him wouldn’t help stop his behavior. That being said, I acknowledge that Marrena had valid reasoning and good intentions behind her recommendation. Stop giving her so much flack for it, people…
P.S. Vanilla Swirl Couple never made ANY assumptions, they/he/she just explored possibilities. Possibilities aren’t likelihoods, assumptions, or assertions: they’re just demonstrations of what may be true, regardless of what is likely true.
I acknowledge that the wife here is MOST LIKELY correct and in the right. But there are remote possibilities that should, AT THE VERY LEAST, be briefly CONSIDERED before we implicate this man none of us actually know so quickly and on so little evidence.
You know, with all the attacking of MHIO going on, and defending of her husband, no one seemed to notice what MHIO (assuming she is wifeofhusband) mentioned in a couple of her comments: that her husband seems to care not at all for *her* fantasies and turn-ons, and has never asked her what turns her on. Yeah, “didn’t love it, but whatever,” doesn’t seem like the most GGG of statements to make, but given the rest of her letter, I certainly don’t begrudge her a certain degree of bitterness over a situation that has spiraled far beyond her own comfort level. GGG doesn’t mean you *have* to looooove your partner’s kinks as if they were your own; it means you ought to make a good faith effort to indulge something within your comfort zone. I got from the letter that this was once upon a time within MHIO’s comfort zone, but now has progressed far beyond that. A little annoyance regarding the fetish which is the source of her misery is, I think, allowed.
In fact, in the vein of VanillaSwirlCouple (whose comments I admittedly stopped reading around #150ish), I’m going to play my own version of Let’s Pretend: let’s leave aside all the potential for legal problems and assume that MHIO’s problem is a husband who insists that every time they have sex, *his* kinks get catered to and hers are either ignored or only perfunctorily indulged in. I’m pretty sure Dan would give roughly the same advice (and this is assuming MHIO has fairly easy to indulge kinks and is not one of those unfortunate centaur fetishists).
The husband didn’t have sex until he was 28 and married the woman he lost his virginity to. He probably doesn’t have a solid grasp of what a real, adult sexual relationship is like. Part of me wonders if his constant insistence that every woman wants not only to fuck him, but to indulge his kinks for him, and his steps pursuing that, are part of an elaborate (perhaps subconscious) revenge scheme on all the beautiful woman who wouldn’t sleep with him before. “YOU wouldn’t fuck me five years ago, so NOW I’m going to make you suffer by humiliating you!” If it’s not Asperger’s/Autism Spectrum Disorder, it may very well be that (my dad has undiagnosed Asperger’s, and he likes to make racist jokes to minority sales clerks, insisting that they laugh because his jokes are funny and not because they’re afraid of losing their job if they don’t). It’s a power trip, he knows he’s on it, and he needs to get slapped in the face with Reality so he stops.
I’m joining with everyone suggesting divorce, and ASAP. Either it will get him to change or it won’t; and if it won’t, MHIO definitely needs to leave him. Divorce is hard on kids, but I suspect growing up with a dad like MHIO’s husband would be harder.
Thanks to everyone who has given me advice, and really, I am not sure how to proceed from here. It scares me, because I think my husbands thought process is, I like to be humilated, so everyone else must as well. He has told me he knew his coworker would be into it because the way she dressed. The other coworker he contacted he let me know he had called her hoping she would want to humiliate him sexually and I would participate as well. He did not ask me beforehand if I wanted to participate or if I thought it was a good idea to contact her. When I asked what gave him the idea she would be into it, he said he had no idea if she would be, but it couldnt hurt to ask her to humiliate him. When we walk around the mall with our kids Im terrified we will run into a salesgirl he has involved in his sexual foreplay. When I tell him he is going to get into trouble and that hes hurt me, hes tells me all guys are like this and I am a Fucking loser. Its funny because Dan said in his response, he is not being humilated by these women, he is humilating them. I never looked at it that way, and Dan nailed it, because, I do feel humiliated and, it does not sexually gratify me, it makes me feel like shit. My husband and I had a pretty normal marriage for years and I thought my husband was a very kind, thoughtful person. It has been very traumatic to find out who my husband really is and how he really feels about women. And, yes I should have paid attention to some red flags, but I didnt.
wifeofhusband, if you are legit, proceed exactly as Dan said to. Serve divorce papers ASAP. As for the “all men are like this” junk, yes, all 12-year-old boys are like that. Not fully grown men pushing 30. He’s acting like a child who doesn’t know how to behave like an adult, and he needs to grow up.
All men are like this in that they THINK about doing these kinds of things. They go around THINKING “wouldn’t it be great if my coworker were into my kink” or “I’d love it if that salesgirl were cool enough to do this,” etc. The difference is that adult men have a sense of SELF CONTROL and understand when it is, and when it is not, appropriate to act on their urges.
And yes, to a certain degree, almost all men overestimate how attractive they are to women and how many women would be into them. This is why, as Dan has noted, men are usually the ones who make the first move and women are usually the ones who reject their advances. But your husband is displaying a degree of social retardation far beyond what is normal for most men. R Taylor may very well have hit the nail on the head with the speculation that he may have Asperger’s or some Autistic Spectrum Disorder. I dated a man with Asperger’s once, and they do have a tendency to 1) go around doing things that are socially inappropriate and 2) project their feelings and desires onto other people. If he does get counseling or therapy, you may want to explore the possibility that this may be a part of his problem.
By the way, I would highly recommend you look into the National Coalition for Sexual Freedom’s database of Kink Aware Professionals.
http://www.ncsfreedom.org/index.php?opti…
This database will help you find a divorce lawyer, psychologist, counselor, therapist, or any other person you need to help you with your situation. That way, they’ll address the REAL issue (his inappropriate behavior) instead of attacking the fetish itself.
Avast,
It is an awkward, squeamish sounding word, isn’t it?
Can you suggest a prettier one? I’m all ears.
On a completely different subject, I do feel like Uhura with the new Bluetooth thingie we’re all s’posed to be wearing these days…
Xiao,
I find your comments well-thought.
Please remember bitter disappointment is a choice, however.
And thanks for the link!
Any dude who calls you a ‘fucking loser’ is not worth being married to.
@205: “Assumptions in [Joon’s] own recent posts that are not in [MHIO’s original] letter include:
– The couple agreed to be exclusive.”
HeLLO?! They’re MARRIED! And that means monogamy, unless one or both spouses out-and-out LIED when they vowed to “forsake all others.” (Sorry, but a marriage contract is not “implied,” as you so erroneously stated; it is an explicit, LEGAL contract. Were this not so, adultery — a breach of that explicit contract — would not be legal grounds for divorce!)
To all the marrieds in here who entertain outside sex partners by mutual consent, I have to ask: Why get married at all? Living together, having children together, buying property together all without benefit of wedlock have in recent decades been all but totally destigmatized. Equally socially accepted is the notion that unmarried folks can have as much of whatever kind of consenting-adults sex they desire, with as many partners as they desire. So why get married if monogamy is something you can’t (or simply don’t wish to) commit to?
Setting aside all other issues here, I have a real problem with people making promises they have NO INTENTION of keeping/becoming party to legal contracts they have EVERY INTENTION of violating. The other party — typically both honorable and oblivious — ends up paying all the emotional and legal freight, as wifetohusband’s increasingly incoherent posts amply demonstrate.
TANSTAAFL, bay-bee.
@219: “Subspace” is an extremely common Term Of Art amongst BDSM’ers, and a very useful one it is. But I’ve gotta admit that when I first heard it some 30 years ago my fevered brain leaped right to Trek, too.
(It’s life, Jim, but not as we know it, not as we know it, not as we know it.)
Can we get Mistress Matisse’s comments on MHIO?
Marrena, avoid bad boys like this one. He’s either taking huge risks or lying about them, which is serious stuff. Either way, you don’t want to be trying to straighten his shit out. Either YOU end up in court, or you throw him out after way too much frustration, anger, humiliation and lost confidence. Seen it happen. Really not pretty.
@232
I dunno about you, but when I got married, we wrote our own vows, and “forsake all others” never made it, and yet our marriage license is just as valid. Then again, we were poly going in and still poly.
Why get married? Are you just being ignorant of the multitude of rights bestowed upon a married couple (i.e. why gays want to have that same right)?
Perhaps MIHO’s husband has a use for the “half-empty bottles of pubic-hair-befrazzled lube”?
Perhaps MIHO’s husband has a use for the “half-empty bottles of pubic-hair-befrazzled lube”?
Hey, Wife of Husband
How about this… Channel the anger you have at him and this situation into humiliating him about his small penis and sissy panties.
That way, you get to blow off some steam and he gets his needs met and won’t have to be a creep all over the place
win. win. win.
@217
“About the GGG thing–yes, if a woman has strong submissive tendencies, she’s never going to enjoy domming. But aside from those women–your average woman I think would absolutely enjoy FemDom, because FemDom is all about the woman getting exactly what she wants. Everything. She is the boss. You want foreplay? Demand it. You want the subbie husband to do all the housework? Demand it. You want romantic nights out with dinner and dancing? Yours.”
Everything she wants…except a partner.
🙁