I’m a 23-year-old female college student whose life consists of going to class and going to the gym. I got hurt in my last relationship, so I’ve been staying away from dating for a while. I’m attractive and I notice guys checking me out—making the gym a second home does have benefits!—but I’m afraid I come off as unapproachable.
I’ve noticed this fine guy at the gym. From the way he looks at me, I can tell he’s interested, but I have no idea why he hasn’t approached me. We make a lot of eye contact while we work out, and some days he’ll walk by my treadmill and awkwardly smile, but we’ve talked only once. Is he shy? Should I try to talk to him again? How can I come off as more approachable? I’m finding myself obsessing over him (like I said, he is fine), but the more I do, the more pathetic I feel.
Pathetic Shy Girl
With A Crush
We’ll get to your issues in a moment, PSGWAC, but first…
Don’t you hate it when you’re working on a column that’s way overdue and you have a horrible headache and you grab the bottle of pills from your suitcase—a travel selection of Excedrins, Advils, and 222s—and you pour the pills into your hand and pick out a couple of 222s (they’re the ones that don’t have an “E” on them and aren’t green) and you toss the 222s in your mouth while you click through a few e-mails and then nearly choke to death?
Don’t you hate that?
And don’t you hate it even more when you’re sitting there wondering how you nearly choked to death on a couple of 222s—they’re skinny! You conquered that gag reflex in middle school!—and then you remember that your boyfriend put four of his massive, easy-to-choke-on Vicodins in with your pills the last time he came along on a trip?
Don’t you hate that?
Okay, I had better get to it, huh? Soon I won’t be fit to operate the remote for the TV in my hotel room much less dole out sex advice to my love-, clue-, and orgasm-lorn readers. But before we begin: My apologies to anyone unlucky enough to find their letter in this week’s column.
Okay, PSGWAC, a lot of guys—fine and otherwise—have been led to believe that hitting on girls who aren’t in bars or on personals websites is tantamount to sexual harassment. Because, you see, for the last 20 years, fine and otherwise guys have been told that it’s not nice to hit on girls at work, on the bus, at the gym, or in class. Girls are still getting hit on at work, on the bus, at the gym, and in class, of course, just not by nice guys. The guys who approach girls at work, on the bus, etc. are, for the most part, fine and otherwise assholes.
So I’m thinking either Fine Boy is a nice, polite, clueless straight dude who doesn’t want to make you feel uncomfortable or he’s a fag who stares because he thinks your skin is flawless and is sincerely curious about what product you use in your hair.
Here’s how you find out whether Fine Boy is straight and polite or gay and product-curious: Approach Fine Boy—take it from me, nothing makes you seem more approachable than physically approaching someone—and tell him you’d love to hang out sometime outside the gym, outside your clothes, etc., and see what he says.
I’m gay but I’m just a normal guy. The most stereotypical gay thing about me is that I’m a musical-theater major. But I can fix a car, I don’t enjoy dancing (in clubs), I hate the bar scene, and I never use the word “fabulous.” I’m not attracted to faggy men. Can you assure me that there are nonfaggy gay men out there?
Straight Actor
There are no nonfaggy gay men out there, SA.
Or there are no other nonfaggy gay men out there, I should say, because you’re nonfaggy—I’m taking your word for it, SA—and there you are, all nonfaggy and majoring in musical theater! But you’re the only fabulously masculine gay man in America! You’re like Will Smith in I Am Legend, only you have to sing and dance and blow loads on guys instead of running and screaming and blowing away loads of zombies.
But there may be a few homos out there masculine enough to meet with your approval. Look around the tech department of your theater program, SA, and if you see someone in paint-spattered jeans, carrying a power tool, with a pack of smokes tucked in a back pocket, ask that butch dyke out. She’s your only hope.
I’m the type of guy who always has a lot to drink because I need to have the courage to hit on girls and also because I don’t want to look like one of those assholes who stays sober so he can have the pick of the most wasted girls. However, when I do end up with a girl in my bed, I can’t get it up. Tactfully saying “Let’s wait till the morning” is not much fun.
It Does Work, I Swear
Advice Seeker: “Dan, Dan! My dick doesn’t work when I go like this.”
Advice Columnist: “Don’t go like that.”
I’ve been with my husband for nearly eight years. When we met, he weighed about 140 pounds, which wasn’t bad on his five-feet-ten frame. Since then, he’s ballooned to 230 pounds! I know I should just be a grown-up and tell him that it would improve our sex life if he lost the weight. The problem is this: I am a recovering anorexic. My husband knows and has been nothing short of wonderful, understanding, and caring about it since the beginning. Due to my issues, he would never make a disparaging comment about my weight—so how can I make one about his? But his weight is killing my desire for him! It feels so horrible and shallow to say, but I just want to be fucked by someone who isn’t so fat. He’s great in every other aspect, except for his weight.
Is it wrong for me to ask my husband to lose the weight after everything I’ve put him through with my own issues?
Former Annie-Rexic
Presumably, your husband wouldn’t hesitate to speak up if you began starving yourself to death again, FAR, so I don’t—in my condition—see why you should hesitate to speak up now that he’s eating himself to death. Unless, of course, that would tear open your food-related wounds.
So speak up. Thank him, once again, for the way he’s supported your efforts to keep the weight on and explain how you’re going to support his efforts to take the weight off.
I am a woman in my early 20s and I have been in a happy hetero relationship for several years. My boyfriend has a foot fetish, and I have no problem doing what satisfies him. The problem is that the same is not true for him. He doesn’t like sex at all, and he’s barely even tried to go down on me. He has never come during intercourse. It’s as if he is repulsed by my vagina. I should also mention that, unlike other foot fetishists, he enjoys being in control, i.e., tying me up, holding me down, etc. Is there anything I can do to make sex more enticing and enjoyable?
Starting To Get Fed Up
Have it with someone else.
Has anyone considered the possibility that SA’s problem is not internalized homophobia, but an inadequate vocabulary? Yes, he used “button” words like “normal” and “nonfaggy”, but so what? He probably didn’t call himself “normal” as a way of making himself better than other gay guys, just as a way of saying that he was more masculine than most other gay guys, and that wasn’t much into gay culture. Listen to what the guy is asking instead of always being on the alert for “politically incorrect” language; you might learn something.
I think I know where SA is coming from because I’m like him. And it’s a pretty shitty deal: you get rejected by straight people for being gay, then you get rejected by gay people for not being gay enough. Fun stuff. Being subjected to bigotry from both sides is so delightful.
SA is just a gay guy who’s into very little of gay culture. Why should that be grounds for ostracism? And why does that draw an immediate conclusion that he hates himself?
My advice to SA is this: give the bar scene another try. But forget about the twink bars. Check out the leather bars instead. It works out that only a minority of guys at leather bars are actually into the BDSM scene. Probably 50% of the clientele is more masculine gay guys who don’t feel comfortable at the boy bars. Same deal with the bear bars. And in answer to his question, YES, THERE ARE MOST DEFINITELY OTHER GAY GUYS OUT THERE LIKE HIM!! But you have to seek ’em out a bit. Good luck.
As an undergrad with back problems, I’ve written many papers after several Vicodin. I recommend chasing it with caffeine and plenty of water (it’s a party!). Also, stay out of the hot tub, it will turn you into jello!
-MHW
Hi Dan,
I enjoy your column. Where did you get the balls to be so uncompromisingly self-accepting? Do you think the coming out process helped, or is it just something you’ve accomplished through hard work? I am a straight guy at the age when straight people settle down with whatever they think they deserve and marry it, and I wish I could forcefeed your column (easy there…) down a few throats…
Gym Gal’s problem reminds me of a Dave Barry quip: “For now, we are stuck with the system where one party has to boldly walk right up to the other party and, with no real excuse, attempt to start a conversation. At one time this was strictly the man’s responsibility, but now, what with Women’s Liberation, it is still strictly the man’s responsibility.”
Straight gals, it’s pretty simple – if you like a guy, go talk to him. If he minds, he’s not someone you want. Forget all the BS that’s been taught to you for generations about trying to make him come to you rather than you going to him. And all that fear you have about “will he like me? will he slap me?” is exactly what men go through every single time they ask you out.
“I’m attractive and I notice guys checking me out”
So the guys who find you attractive don’t interest you, but the guys you do find attractive are not interested?
Sounds like 95% of everyone’s OK Cupid inbox/sent messages dichotomy
Thexalon, thanks for the Dave Barry line. Perfect. (I used to read Barry’s column all the time.)
It’s quite common to hear women say they won’t approach a guy and chat him up because “men don’t like that.” But I see that as simply an excuse for fear of rejection, the same fear that, as you noted, men have to deal with all the time.
A few years ago, on a dating message board, this topic was being discussed by a lot of men and women. I told the women what I wrote above (@ 145): a woman doesn’t actually have to approach a guy. All she has to do is make her interest in him obvious and he will likely take it from there. What I found interesting is that most of the women said they weren’t even willing to make their interest in a guy obvious because if they did, and he didn’t respond, that meant they were being rejected. By keeping their interest in a guy not obvious, it gave them an ego-saving out. If the guy didn’t respond, they could tell themselves it wasn’t because they were being rejected but because the guy wasn’t able to pick up on their signals. I’d never thought of that before but it made perfect sense.
150/TCSD: Why does gym girl have to go up to this “fine” stranger and ask him out? Why doesn’t she make small talk with him at the gym, and as she gets to know him better, maybe the talk won’t be so small. Then if he’s single, and straight and she’s still attracted to him and if he still seems attracted to her, THEN ask him out.
I agree with you that gym girl doesn’t have to ask the guy out right away — I think your suggestion is excellent — but she asked Dan “Should I try to talk to him again?”, so she appears to be afraid of even trying to make small talk with him (probably due to a fear that he won’t respond favorably.)
@46: See that little button, right next to the volume? No, that’s AFC and it doesn’t work anymore. It’s that other one. It turns it on and off. Use that one when Dan’s saying something you aren’t interested. Then come back later to
see if he’s done talking about drugs or poo-eaters. Sheesh. It’s like getting mad at Ask Amy for giving bad advice. Or Family Circus for being inane.
I read a heartbreaking article in the NYT about sex trafficking: http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/28/opinio…
Dan – you often encourage people to pay for sex as needed to satisfy their needs. Please consider doing a column about being a socially-responsible consumer. How can sex consumers take steps to support consensual sex workers, and what should they do if they think a sex worker is a victim of trafficking?
Um, guys? SA is the one being taken to task for being the homophobe — in his dismissive descriptions of other gays in his letters. He’s not being bashed for being gay. Neither is he being told his personal preferences are invalid (and that he must run out and get a twink bf instead). He’s being taken to task for being a douche about not realizing there’s a wide variety of gay folks out there and instead stereotyping gay men & bitching about that.
I guess the sarcasm flew over a lot of peoples’ heads. but really…
I think I went down on Vic Odin once.
Dear Dan and Terry and DJ,
As an educator, and someone who has committed their life to helping children grow up strong, I need to say that you are heroes of the best, most vital kind! It Gets Better makes us all better – frightened gay children, haters who want to stop hating, young people full of questions and middle aged straight people like me. We are all challenged by you to reach inside ourselves for what is strong, proud, loving and accepting. You have changed the world, and you have given hope to so many people. Thank-you!
#9 and Dan: Don’t know why you’re being so hard on SA. He simply wants some assurance that there are gay men like him out there. Did you ever stop to think that his school may be in Kansas and not NYU? I know from college how tough it was to come out when the only visible gay men were all on the nellie side.
#154 is exactly right: gay men are all supposed to “celebrate” queeniness, camp, and the sissy-stereotype mannerisms in our culture. We even are expected to embrace drag queens and trannies as somehow closer to us, than their own unique group.
But God forbid if we dare say we prefer to be with masculine acting men who may watch NFL instead of “Glee”. I don’t see how wanting to associate with people whose interests are more like you should be seen as denigrating those who are not.
Dan, I love the column. Vicodin looks good on ya.
Former Annie-Rexic
Dan’s advice is probably correct but it doesn’t seem like you have a very good relationship with your husband anyway. 8 years into my marriage my wife did put on some weight, and I remember thinking “wow I guess I will love her no matter what” because I just didn’t mind. I was more concerned with her health and well being than how it made her look.
Also, there are a lot of comments about the numbers but when I was 15 I weighed 160 lbs and I was about 5’8″. There wasn’t much fat though since my hobbies were baseball and climbing trees. Yes I liked to climb trees. I did it a lot and I got really high up in them. My back and shoulders got pretty strong as a result. Now, 20 years later I weigh 260, and I could definitely lose some weight, but I also feel really good at this weight.
Re: Gym Girl-
If walking up to ‘fine guy’ for blatantly romantic purposes is too intimidating, just break the conversation barrier: Ask him how to use a particular machine, or how to do a particular excersize.
Don’t settle for a short answer, ask him to show you, then ask him to check out your form. He’ll likely appreciate the opportunity to feel knowledgable, you’ll give him even more permission to check you out, you can both smile and joke close up, which will likely get the ball rolling.
If he still doesn’t ask you out, you can give him a pretty casual – “Whew, I could use a break… Let’s grab a protein shake/vitamin water/coffee/whaever” If he declines, he’s either taken or gay.
And I’ll concur 100% with whomever said it before… If you want to get hit on at the gym, you need to take out your earphones. It feels very UN-casual (and therefore intimidating) to ask someone to take them out so you can strike up a conversation.
I’m an assertive guy, and I’ve struck up conversations at the gym, but if the girl is wearing earphones, it’s not happening. I even saw a girl smile at me when she got on the elliptical next to me, and soon after, she took out her earphones – It may seem like a blatant signal, but it got me to ask her out. 🙂
Am I the only one who’s a little pissed at PSGWAC? This is the best that fifty-plus years of feminism can do? In effect: “I was in a bad situation and retreated to the gym and didn’t want to date. And now I’m whining that a guy in a location that I chose to be away from people who ask me out, won’t ask me out”.
Because everybody else is being so polite PSGWAC, let me break it down for you:
If you want to go out with him GET OFF YOUR FUCKING LAZY ENTITLED 1959 ASS AND ASK HIM OUT. It’s 2010, for god’s sake, and being a modern woman means giving up some of your comfort zones. The men had to, so it’s your turn.
And hopeless douchenozzles who use “feminazi” aside, @33 is a pretty good example of the sort of idiot that wants it both ways: they want the ability to sexually approach the opposite sex totally winnowed out of almost every place where men and women interact, but also want to pretend that men are able to continue and should be able to magically know exactly when an approach is or isn’t welcome (something which is subjectively determined and changes from person to person and moment to moment).
Listen, @33: most decent gyms don’t like guys hitting on the women there and try to stop it, and even provide women-only times and locations to reinforce the message (“men are so likely to hit on you that we won’t even let them into this location, so you’re fine!”) Most decent guys are trained not to bug women at the gym. In such a context, hitting on a woman at a gym IS prima facie sexual harassment, no matter how deep your denial.
DJ Escher @143 is correct.
@171, 172:
I don’t really think this is about feminism as much as it is about being shy and depressed, which affects both men and women. Everyone’s been shy and scared to approach someone, so I don’t think that’s reason to be pissed at her.
And I agree that post 143 is right on, but I don’t know where all these ideas about gyms are coming from: gyms are social places and it’s perfectly appropriate to say hi and start a conversation (which is all ‘hitting on’ really is).
Dan, just caught your appearance on Colbert–I cried when I heard the video. I think every one of my friends in the deep South in the late 80s/early 90s would have loved to hear something like this…
On behalf of them, thank you….
BlackRose @173: I’d be more amenable to that argument where it not for the fact that even fifty years into the realignment of the sexual roles, pretty much all of the initial heavy lifting of het romantic relationships is left up to guys: it’s still up to them to make that potentially embarrassing or humiliating first encounter whether they’re shy or depressed or not: in 999 cases out of a thousand the woman is sure as hell not going to do it. After a while for us egalitarian types the dissonance of a long-overdue move towards equality in the rest of the world is weirdly juxtaposed with the fact that most women are content to sit on their behinds and be approached as if it were some damned cotillion. Sorry, but that’s the way a ton of guys, myself included, see it.
Your view of gyms seems to be at odds with other people’s experiences of gyms. My own view is that this may be due to different gyms. All I can tell you from my personal experience is that almost all women of my acquaintance hate being romantically or sexually approached in gyms. You may be rather over-leaning on the subjectivity of who’s doing the approaching. Further it doesn’t address the world-class whinging of the letter writer who specifically identified the gym as a place where she buried herself after a bad relationship (ie because she didn’t want to date guys) and then writes into SL kvetching that a guy won’t approach her in a gym. In many ways she’s a classic example of the no-win scenario that most guys have to navigate as they try to figure out what is and isn’t permissible compared to the simplicity of their fathers’ and grandfathers’ generations.
SA isn’t a homophobe, he’s just stating who he’s attracted to and asking for advice on how to find that kind of person.Dan’s comment that there are no nonfaggy gay men is just wrong. Blame it on the Vicodin. Personally, I’m gay and turned off by effeminacy in a dude, and that doesn’t mean I like someone who’s trying to somehow compensate for his sexuality by acting tough, either. SA, there are dudes out there you could be into.
Nearly every relationship I’ve been in has started from my asking the guy out. I would honestly rather be pursued, but sometimes that’s not how it works out. Some guys are just shy, and that means if you want them you have to go get them. My boyfriend right now for example.. love him to pieces, but I never would have met him if I hadn’t made the first move. “He’s Just Not That Into You” was a shallow and stupid book. I’m sure all the guys out there who are afraid to talk to women did not appreciate a book telling women not to talk to them.
I find the number of people recommending PSGWAC break the ice by asking the guy how to do stuff disappointing. There are plenty of ways for a woman to break the ice without retreating into professed incompetence.
@178: Yeah, that book pisses me off also. A lot of the time, when a guy doesn’t initiate or seem interested in a girl, he’s just scared or unsure how to do it (especially if they’ve been friends for some time). Same goes for the frequently given, but idiotic, advice not to ask a guy out because it will turn him off, look desperate, or emasculate him. Though unfortunately some more traditional women are turned off by a guy they would otherwise like if they have to ask him out.
That said, there was one message from that book that’s good: if you’ve repeatedly asked a guy out and he declines, he probably isn’t into you.
@175: I agree that she should get off her ass and ask him out; I just think that girls (as well as guys) should get a little more understanding for being scared and shy, especially when they’re depressed or something.
It’s also possible that no matter how much gender roles change, guys will do most of the direct approaching and girls will do most of the hinting and subtle signaling; some of that is probably biological and hormonal.
I assume from your spelling of ‘whining’ that you’re British; I wonder if there’s a UK/US difference here? Also, my gym is a large university gym and tends to be pretty social. To be clear, I’m referring to starting a friendly conversation and expressing interest in getting to know the person more, as opposed to crass, vulgar, or offensive comments (which are pretty much unacceptable anywhere).
I don’t really see it as a no-win scenario. Just ignore the fools who think there’s a problem with approaching someone, start conversations with people if you want, and leave people alone if they’re clearly not interested.
Really, Dan, you can’t tell that SA has obviously very limited exposure to the gay community? For someone who has a group dedicated to letting teens know it gets better, you really threw SA into the wind there simply because he doesn’t know better. So what exactly is your group for if not to educate young gays who don’t know they’re not alone? Or is it only for certain types of gays that are not “straight-in-every-way-but-one” gays?
“Straight Actor”, there are plenty of gay men who are “straight” and are not the stereotypical queens perpetrated by society (straight or gay). And you will have to forgive Dan, he’s simply angry at your use of the concept that there are “gay” and “straight” ways to act. He was wrong for not forgiving your naivete.
Thanks for another wonderfully informative column, Dan, and for the warning about Vicodin!
To SA-
Just wanted to say don’t lose hope. My French teacher from high school would be perfect for you. He is exactly like what you described, and masculine. Unfortunately for you (but happily for him) he’s been in a committed relationship with his partner for many many many years.
But they are out there! Good luck!
Re: SA — I’m kinda with Dan on this one. To those of you who are defending him, it’s not that Dan fails to appreciate the diversity of gay men, and it’s just not true that the gay majority somehow oppresses a non-showtune-singing, non-limp-wristed minority. But what gets me most is the notion that SA has just not had enough exposure to gay reality. The first sentence gives it away: “I’m gay but I’m just a normal guy” — that sentence, in one or another variation, is in virtually every gay personal ad ever written. SA is just embracing, with blithe pompousness, the clichéest of gay clichés ever. “I’m not attracted to your stereotypical ‘fags’, I like men, men who look & smell like men.” That, dear sir, is the epitome of gaygaygaygaygay. Sorry.
Favorite column of all time.
Dan is right there is no place left men can hit on a woman, regardless of whatever signs he may see from her. She needs to approach him. Trust me guys have no problem being approached.
@45 and to all those who seem to have a hard time thinking for themselves: There IS a difference between asking someone out and sexual harassment.
45, if you weren’t already aware, calling someone (usually a woman) “Toots” makes YOU come across as bitter and a victim. Sort yourself out. You are probably the same sort of person who blames others because YOU aren’t getting to be sexist, racist or any of “PC” of the world which of course, you would tell anyone who would listen how the world is going down the pan and how in the good ol’ days you could just call a “girl” “Toots” and they’d giggle.
Once again, there IS a big difference between asking someone on a date and sexual harassment but for those who can’t seem to figure it out:
1. Power staring at a woman who is clearly ignoring you? Creepy. Approaching that woman and she turns you down and then you go back and bother her or continue the power staring because she turned you down? Harassment. That is logical.
2. Seeing a woman who looks attractive and you two have met or maybe have made OBVIOUS eye contact (and I don’t mean the kind where you power stare at her and she stares back because she can’t figure out “why” the creepy guy is staring a hole through her) then you ask her out and she says, “no” then no damage. She says “no” and you feel a need to call her a “dyke” or a “cunt” or a “whore” or a “fucking bitch” because she turned you down? Harassment.
3. Treating her the way you’d like to be treated by a complete stranger? Polite and respectful of her space, privacy and vulnerability? No issues, here. Walking over to her and making a comment about her body and you haven’t even met her? Harassment.
It is astonishing how much folks in the US have allowed themselves to veer so far from common sense. Surely, you all are old enough to write to an advice column so surely you can treat others with dignity and respect. EVEN if you don’t know how it feels yourself you can figure out basic social behaviour.
45 – No one has taken anything from you nor is anyone stopping you from living the life you see fit but if you really think that any woman wants to be called “Toots” then you have a lot of just life learning ahead of you.
The reason why you’ve had “it crammed down your throat” is because for centuries men have had the luxury of simply getting on with their lives and it is not logical for women to constantly have their space invaded by men grabbing their bodies, making comments about their faces or their bodies or talking to them as if they are a piece of meat to be used and ignored.
That is “why” you’ve had it crammed down your throat.
If you are really so indignant about being told “what to do” then the next time you see a man acting like the above, then say something to HIM.
You folks are not children (or, maybe you are, who knows) so common sense could, if you allow it, prevail here.
Come on, how difficult is it really to think for yourselves? Apparently, very.
Wow, many people here with no idea what they’re talking about re: a 5’10” man weighing 140 pounds. And you can pretty easily LOOK THIS UP, but that weight falls into the (admittedly lower end, but still) NORMAL range of weight. I was 6’1″ weighing 140 for a while. Yes, I was skinny, but I looked it up and medically speaking, it was still considered within the ‘normal’ range. Not anywhere close to ‘unhealthy’. It’s just slender. Not anorexic or anything like that. Come on people, at least know something before you write about it.