Savage Love

1. Pow! And just like that, Dan strikes another blow (ha ha ha) for equality.

   “Suck my dick.” Great! Love it! Great job, Dan! Let’s put this myth of sexuality-is-a-choice to rest permanently.

   (Hmm, but looking at the Christian right’s record, maybe he’ll take you up on it..)

2. Stephen Colbert?

3. Stephen Colbert a choicer?

4. GHTR, tell your boyfriend what happened with the colleague, and see how he reacts:

   A) BF is cool about it — then maybe the two of you have a lot in common and can get past this patch where your anxiety has caused your sex drive (with him) to plummet.

   B) BF gets all clingy and mopey — it will be easier to accept that you have to break up with him.

   C) BF dumps your ass — better that it happen now rather than after you’ve moved in together.

   If, after considering these options, you’re not hoping for A, then you can skip telling him and just dump him. It’s over.

5. “I have no plans to tell the BF, a man I love very much and don’t want to hurt.”

   …Wow, total bitch alert. And no, there’s no such thing as “innocent drinks” unless it’s with more than one person or someone you can trust not to run along with your less than thoughtful impulses. Obiviously most colleagues don’t fall in the latter catagory. Serious sympathy for the S.O. involved.

6. @6

   No one loses in that scenario. Hey, I’d love to watch that video.

7. BTW, was Stephen Colbert included with the Choicers as a joke? Because most of the mean shit he says is sarcastic, I-mean-the-opposite humor.

8. Back when I was still an actor, about twenty years ago, we had this little traveling troupe and were doing an AIDS awareness program at colleges around Ohio. One of the things we were dealing with was the whole “choicer” attitude. So we came up with a song, whose lyrics escape me now, but the refrain was, “If Homosexuality is a choice, then choose to be gay for a week.” It shut alot of people up.

9. Like most political whores, Cummins will gladly suck your cock for a substantial campaign contribution.

10. Funny, 7, I have innocent drinks with my friends all the time. Sometimes in pairs, sometimes in groups. Often with a few exes who I’m still friendly with. Doesn’t make me want to sleep with them (at least anymore, as the case may be). It’s attitudes like that that make holier-than-thou monogamous people so obnoxious…not only is your partner the only one you can have sex with for the rest. of. your. life…they’re the only person of the opposite sex (or same sex, as the case may be) who you can hang out with for the rest of your life. There’s a reason why so many “monogamous” people cheat, and from my experience, it’s more about suffocation and control than a desire for some strange.

11. ms. d @12, i would add: the only person you can dance with, the person you must sit next to at dinner parties, the only person you can flirt with, the person you must vacation with–no separate vacations, as that would be WEIRD. after several years of this, i’d be clawing my way out, not renewing my vows.

12. EricaP,

    I think you’re mis-reading GHTR. Progressive intimacy with her boyfriend — the prospect of living together after four whole years of being together — created anxiety, and she fucked someone else. She’s giddy about it, but doesn’t want to tell the BF. Dan’s right: she’s the MF here and needs to split.

    Trust me, they do not “have a lot in common” if he’s fine with it. Her letter suggests she’ll do this again routinely so long as it makes her giddy, but that she’ll stay with her guy because … she loves him? When she finds sa guy else she wants to fuck and also starts to love him, she’ll be gone.

    That is not a really pleasant way to be, and your advice is giving it implicit thumbs up.

13. I heart Dan. If Cummins blows you, I might respect him.

    Naw, I wouldn’t even then….
    Johnny D.

14. Im confused, Stephen Colbert the person or the persona? Did I miss something. Do I have to stop watching the Cobert Report?

15. Another good way to shut up choicers is this simple fact: if being gay were truly a choice, straight men could kiss their ass goodbye. All women would be lesbians, eventually. It would be hard as shit not to find a woman who has not, at one point or another in life, wished with her whole heart to be a lesbian and free of patriarchal bullshit forever. For reals.

16. GHTR, have you slept with your bf since then? If so, he has a right to know you’re increasing the risk of your relations. If not, you should tell him before you have sex with him, or dump him and don’t have sex with him at all.

17. Ms Erica – What if she likes clingy and mopey? So many clingy and mopey people are partnered, there has to be some sort of market for it.

    This letter almost feels like a cousin to the one with all those comments some months ago from the poly woman who was raped and then some months later husband triggered her but her secondary partner made her feel whole and loved and wonderful, doesn’t it? Only moving in together seems rather feeble by comparison as the stressor.

    I wish she hadn’t signed herself the way she did; it would have been interesting to see if there were any appreciable difference between comments from people reading GHTR as male from comments of those reading GHTR as female. Mr Savage really ought to put out a quiz book along that loine; as his letters probably have less bias towards straight and towards female than those of his contemporaries or near-contemporaries in the mainstream, he’s by far the best positioned to do so.

18. @12,oh, yeah. i reconnected with an old college lover recently. i hadn’t seen him in 20 years or more, but after having drinks after work twice, his ‘tightly wound’ wife put the kibosh on it. so, no drinks after work anymore, no friendship because of her insecurity.

19. Dan the advise to GHTR was spot on. Why move in with him if you are no longer attracted to him? You stated that you are feelings giddy and no guilt for having had sex with a colleague! Are you planning on having more sexual encounters with this colleague? Would it always be guilt free sex? Would you rather have sex with anyone else besides having sex with your boyfriend? Are you and your boyfriend interested in having an open relationship where you both live together but have sex with other people? If the answer to these questions are YES NO and MAYBE then Why prolong a Doomed Relationship? Spare him and yourself the Future Heartache and emotional Pain and make a clean Break NOW!

20. I like the point he makes, only an ignorant moron would try to convince someone that being gay is a choice. The end was the best. I took a biology class and learned more about evolution and mutations. My hypothesis is that being gay could be a mutation to prevent over-population.I don’t understand why people attack gay people so much? There are way more important things in the world to worry about then my sexuality. Take care ps don’t get offended it’s just a hypothesis.

21. I forgot to add – what I’d put in the B slot along with or, depending on taste, ahead of clinging and mopey would be if he “forgave” her in such Obvious Quotation Marks that she knew she’d be paying for it indefinitely.

22. I think this article is accurate. Savage has quite the balls to tell that fucker to suck his dick. Any person that tries to convince society that being gay is a choice is an ignorant moron. I currently took a bio class the last part was over evolution and mutations. This is where I formed my own hypothesis and it might not be accurate but it doesn’t sound nearly as ignorant. Could being gay be caused by a mutation that occurred through evolution to prevent over-population?

23. RE: C&H
    Not surprisingly, I think Dan is leaning a bit biased towards the husband here. How about we switch the perspective: Say this woman’s husband had a bout with testicular cancer and is now undergoing estrogen therapy. He thought his understanding wife, per their agreement, would be avoiding any ideas of threesomes while he recuperates physically and emotionally. But then he accidentally? finds out she’s been busy corresponding with likely women (or men), telling them her husband is eager to perform.

    OK? What’s your take on it now, Dan? Just a little harmless flirting or proof she has little empathy for her suffering spouse?

    Personally, I think C&H deserves a big apology from her husband.

24. Choicers are gay and bisexual men and women who “choose” not to be gay. Sucking cock will prove nothing except that they are gay or bi. I want to see if this guy can actually get it up for his wife without thinking of his days on the high school wrestling team. How do you prove that without mind reading abilities?

25. @2, 4, 9, 16, Shut up and play along. I want to see Colbert put Dan Savage on notice for chosing to be gay. That’s just win all around.

    @20, You can’t honestly believe that drinks alone with an old lover is appropriate behavior for either a husband or a wife. That’s just tempting fate. People are weak, and repeatedly putting yourself in a position like that is dumb. If you guys are such good friends that you want to keep in touch, then your spouses should be hanging out with you.

26. I’m so confused, why is she the MF? Maybe GHTR needs a mongamish relationship…? She said she loves her bf and that it is stress. She’s an MF for being a CPOS, but how about opening the relationship?

27. About choice: I think that the choicers see it this way:

    choice # 1: “be gay” – have the urges and attraction toward same-sex foolin’ around and go ahead and do it, and

    choice # 2: “not be gay” – have the urges and attraction toward same-sex foolin’ around and suppress those urges for whatever reason.

    If you define “gay” in terms of actions instead of intentions, then it is a choice. It’s a choice between living a lie and living in accordance with what your nature demands. It’s a choice between being free and driving yourself mad by denying what you want.

    Of course, I’m biased by my liberal opinions. To be fair, you can define pedophilia as a choice in the same way: To be a pedophile is to abuse children in accordance with your sexual desire to do so, and not to be a pedophile is to feel those same desires but deny them. What Dan calls a “gold-star” pedophile would not be a pedophile by this definition. Interesting semantic discussion, but it doesn’t change the point that even if being gay were a choice, it would be a choice that doesn’t harm any of the consenting adults involved so why not let them make the “choice”?

28. @17 In the same vein as your statement and sentiment. If being gay were truly a choice. Then all men would gay and free of the silly ass games a lot of women play. Men don’t expect their partners to read their minds and don’t usually get upset if their partners don’t just “know” what they want or need. Women stress the importance of talking (usually about feelings), but seem incapable of simple declarative statements. Is it really that hard to just tell someone what you want (assuming you even know what it is) instead making them guess.

29. Just so’s y’all know, the Conservative Party of British Columbia has been wandering in the wilderness for decades. They might as well not exist. I’m not saying that makes his statements any less rock-fucking-stupid, but we in BC generally leans pretty left in its provincial politics. Just sayin’.

30. “lean pretty left in our politics” (was typing too quickly)

31. Awesome as always, Dan.

    … but what’s this about Colbert being a choicer – say it isn’t so!

32. @25: Nope, still don’t buy it. It’s not like the husband in your case is going to actually be asked to perform while he is unready. Meanwhile, what you are asking of the non-incapacitated spouse is to sit and twiddle their thumbs patiently, and not even _fantasize_ over very same things that both of them were _acting_ on, a few short weeks previously. In other words, you are expecting to have control of your spouse right down to what is allowed to turn them on or off.

    In case you missed it, the rather obvious implication of “You probably wouldn’t have said, “YOU ASSHOLE! You weren’t even supposed to be LOOKING until I said so!” “ is that you would be the one being an asshole if you actually said that.

33. @17 – At first, I was smiling mildly at the light-hearted joke you were making.

    But the “patriarchial” part doesn’t ring true to me. As a straight girl who has mostly dated guys with healthy attitudes towards women, I haven’t had to deal with much patriarchial b.s. in my relationships. I HAVE had to deal with it in the wider world of school, work, sports, etc…but lesbians deal with that kind of b.s. just as much as straight women. When I have wished to be a lesbian, it is only because I imagine that it would be easier to relate to someone who deals with similar body issues (like a biological clock) or has been socialized and communicates in a similar manner. Of course, I have only to look at my lesbian friends to realize that they have plenty of relationship problems and don’t live in fairy-tale couplehood either.

    @30 – it’s hard to figure out your tone. Are you saying all that in reaction to @17, to show her the silliness of her statement by holding up a mirror? If so, then I’m with you – an effective ploy.

    But if you really believe what you wrote, then yikes! You really gotta read some Deborah Tannen before you get even more bitter toward women. Seriously – go look up “You Just Don’t Understand.” It will turn you into a mind-reader of women. It will help you WAY more than any of those dating coach idiots who teach you to treat women like prey.

34. “I have innocent drinks with my friends all the time. Sometimes in pairs, sometimes in groups. Often with a few exes who I’m still friendly with. Doesn’t make me want to sleep with them (at least anymore, as the case may be).”

    #12 Yeah, but those are people you can trust. People who know you and were you’re coming from when you go out drinking. I’m sure if you were too drunk to think rationally and about to do something you would regret or face serious repercussions for they would stop you. GHTR throws out the fact that she was drinking like an excuse for her poor behavior (as many people do) when in fact she probably wanted to do exactly that when she was sober, she just didn’t have the courage.

    And I couldn’t care less about monogamy, but if you’re in a LTR you should be up front from the start about what kind of person you are and what you’re looking for in a LTR. You should also communicate about when you’re facing issues in your relationship. Not be monogamous for 4 yrs, become bored, fall off the wagon, and fucking shrug it off like it’s nothing. THEN to top it all off not take responsibility for it under the guise of “I don’t want to hurt them!”. Because it’s too late, you did what you did so you own up to it, discuss it, and decide TOGETHER where to go from there.

    And btw, maybe it’s your “enlightened” attitude that makes what is probably a very good perspective on LTRs, sex, and friendship sound so snobish. If you want people to realize they have hang ups you should meet them half way.

35. ellarosa @13 Ummm … none of those rules apply to my husband and I. Are you listing rules to a hypothetical confining marriage to make yourself feel better?

    @12 – Call me old-fashioned, but I agree that going out to get drunk with one person of the opposite sex — or same sex, as the case may be — is asking for trouble. Then again, I haven’t stayed friends with ANY of my ex’s either. Everyone has different boundaries, the important thing is to be *aware* of your boundaries, which GHTR clearly isn’t.

36. @14 >> Her letter suggests she’ll do this again routinely >>

    If she hasn’t cheated before this, I’m willing to take her at her word that this may be a temporary crisis. The LTR sex has gotten boring, and this other guy touched her in ways that made her feel alive. If she can awaken that kind of excitement in her LTR, they might be able to get through this.

    >> your advice is giving it implicit thumbs up. >>

    My advice is to not take one screw-up as determining the fate of the LTR. If they love each other, and if she can be honest, they can get through it. Otherwise they can’t.

37. About the Human Rights Act:
    Section 8 b says:
    A person must not… discriminate against a person or class of persons regarding any accommodation, service or facility customarily available to the public because of
    the race, colour, ancestry, place of origin, religion, marital status, family status, physical or mental disability, sex, sexual orientation or age of that person or class of persons.

    Religion is a choice, marital status is a choice, family status is (often) a choice… Even if sexual orientation WERE a choice there are ALREADY other choices in the Act that are fully protected.

    I am no longer surprised at how many people ignore science and reason by believing that homosexuality is something you could choose. Though it befuddles me, their attitude does not really bother me. What does bother me is people acting as if it is a BAD choice, simply by virtue of making it.

    Would anyone stand for any politician regulating the “other” choices protected by the Act? Why only attack politics for wrongly BELIEVING that sexual orientation is choice when they should be attacked for wrongly BEHAVING in a way that limits the choices and freedoms of the citizens they should represent?
    Politicians who (will likely always) believe it IS a choice should have to defend why people shouldn’t be allowed to make it.

38. Thank you Dan for acknowledging the pain of miscarriage. For both of them. Ours was the most painful experience I’ve had (I’m I guy).

    CnH and hub could do with looking after each other – these times can drive a wedge of isolation and difference between the two.

39. @17 “It would be hard as shit not to find a woman who has not, at one point or another in life, wished with her whole heart to be a lesbian and free of patriarchal bullshit forever.”

    For reals, indeed. For me it’s once a week at least. Damn my unswerving desire for hard cock, despite that.

40. @ 39: YES, YES, YES! An excellent point.

41. @35 Got it one Although to be honest, there is a degree of truth in complaints of patriarchal BS and female mind games. Sad stereotypes that are unfortunately too often true.

42. @35 Got it in one Although to be honest, there is a degree of truth in complaints of patriarchal BS and female mind games. Sad stereotypes that are unfortunately too often true.

43. And some head banging frustration arising out of personal experiences with women (family, friends, and lovers)

    Men are relatively simple, straight forward creatures. Feed them, rub their tummies, pat them on the head now and then and they happily wag their tails and roll over(Oh wait, that’s for dogs Never mind 🙂

44. Satisfying/placating a mother (when you are an adult) can be such a joy (but that is true whether you are a male or female) It may also be more of a generational and/or ethnic thing. Hoping that is changing over time, but sometimes I do think that it is the motherhood jeans 🙂

45. As a father of a somewhat adult (age wise) daughter, you really don’t want to know what I think about or am inclined to do (with a sharp knife and no anesthesia) to patriarchal, predatory assholes. Hot tongs and branding irons also play a prominent role. I guess I’m being patriarchal now, but then I also have similar urges with respect to pedophiles and my teenage son. Both are decidedly hetero, but I wouldn’t have any issue if my kids were LGBT except for the grief others would inflict on them. That would greatly sadden me.

46. Oh dear God, the thought of Stephen Colbert sucking your dick in character has really made my day. Make that week.

    This heterosexual fangirl thanks you, Dan!

47. @35 I’m all for reducing gender polarisation and increasing understanding – Tannen’s work is good like that. So when I read @17’s comments – which I think were humorous, and intended to illustrate the choice point – I was reminded of the nasty inhumane feminist BS ideology my wife was infected with at one point, and brought into the bedroom – the opposite of GGG – which nearly wrecked our marriage. I’m told that was 2nd wave stuff and it’s now all equality and that. I found it equally polarising and obnoxious as the patriarchal equivalent.

    At one point, I did think I’d be better off gay, and no, it’s not a choice.

48. If 80% of her relationship is great with her boyfriend except the sex, should GHTR split over that one issue? What are the odds of her finding a 100 percenter?
    If her or his relationship is only about sex, then they should split up.

49. 22,24, simplecomplicatedme– NONONONONO! Imagine howling in indignation. The only thing worse than biblebelters refusing to teach the facts of evolution and natural selection is not teaching them well enough to prevent misconceptions like yours. I don’t know where your class was or who was teaching it, but since I can’t go there and slap your teacher upside the head, here’s what you need to know:

    Natural selection is RANDOM. It has no eye to the future. You can’t have a mutation that works to prevent over population because the mutation doesn’t know what over population is. Mutations give rise to non-adaptive forms all the time in totally random fashion. The environment changes which means that what was previously adaptive might not be from one instance to the next. Totally random. The same mutations and non-adaptive forms arise all the time. Totally random. It’s not a matter of natural selection working once and then not having to do it again. Natural selection continues to hone and refine, then hone and refine again. Sometimes the same non-adaptive form shows up many times. Natural selection continues to weed it out. Sometimes new ones pop up. There’s no sense or strategy about it.

    This applies to homosexuality and everything else that results in disproportionately fewer offspring. There is a temptation to start referring to adaptive as “good” and non-adaptive as “bad,” but be careful not to do that. (I wish I could tell the far right idiots not to do that too.) Evolution and natural selection are entirely judgment free. There’s just which individuals have more surviving grandchildren.

    I’m looking for a good short book or essay that can explain this better than I so I can recommend it when I run into people who, like you, think they understand how evolution and natural selection work but don’t. In the mean time, look at Steven Pinker and Stephen Jay Gould.

50. “I went out for innocent drinks with a colleague and ended up back at his place.”

    Give. Me. A. Break. So when she was taking a shower, shaving her legs, putting on her sexy underwear and checking her birth control options prior to going out for innocent drinks, she had nooooooo idea where it would all lead? During the cab ride to his place, she had no idea? When she was taking off her clothes? No idea. At least cop to what happened. She did not just slip and fall on top of this guy’s dick. She went out to get it. And she got it.

    “I love my boyfriend, but I’m still giddy from the hot sex with my colleague. I’m confused! Especially because I don’t feel guilty—I feel great!”

    Um, great. A low-level sociopath who does not consider how this would impact her boyfriend, whom she “loves.” /scoff That pathology plus the endorphins from the affair make her a real prize right now.

    “I have no plans to tell the BF, a man I love very much and don’t want to hurt.”

    When she fucks other people, she doesn’t tell him. Out of love. Holy mother of christ what a piece of shit this gal is.

    “What do I do now?”

    Apparently whatever the hell she wants. Why change? She clearly don’t give a rat’s ooxzing asshole about other people’s feelings, especially ones she claims to love.

    My prediction: She is going to keep fucking New Man, and not tell the Safe at Home Backup, mainly because Safe at Home Backup is what makes New Man so sexy.

    She only wrote to Savage hoping someone would say, “You go, girl! You get what you want, before the eternal abyss of death takes you.”

51. @48 – Stephen Colbert might be the only “Republican” that Dan could convince to “choose to be gay” for a week. Wouldn’t that be awesome?

    I’m really surprised the number of people who took Dan’s mention of Colbert being a choicer seriously. Stephen Colbert frequently references gay being a choice on his show when the topic comes up, but it is OBVIOUSLY part of his satire of the right, and Dan is poking fun of that here.

52. @39: Thank you! Why waste time arguing that being gay isn’t a choice to people who will never believe it? The thing to do is challenge the “choices don’t have to be protected” notion, which is always sort of taken as a given in this debate. Where is it written that choices don’t need protection? If you’re at a job interview, it is illegal for the interviewer to ask you if you’re married or if you have children. Getting married is a choice, as is having children, and those choices are protected as hell.

53. #25, I completely agree. I don’t understand why Dan is sensibly able to acknowledge that the miscarriage was a terrible experience for both of them, while simultaneously imagining that the husband’s sex life wouldn’t be affected and thus should be able to go on as regularly scheduled. As a result, Dan is ignoring some crucial details about what happened here.

    #34, it’s not true that the husband is being asked not even to fantasize. The problem was not that he was watching porn with threesomes or something, the problem is that he contacted real people and spoke FOR his wife. He said his wife was actually excited about THIS person in question, when she is not, and when there’s no clear timetable on when she will be ready. Dan misses all of this. In short, the husband took on some of her agency in this matter, and singlehandedly set a timetable for resuming relations relatively soon. So HE is being the controlling spouse here, and I agree with #25 that he owes his wife and apology.

    It’s also totally reasonable to expect that, in this case, the husband “sit around and twiddle his thumbs patiently” for a while. The miscarriage, which was a result of pregnancy they both wanted and created through their sexual union, was THREE WEEKS ago. And the go-ahead for sex from the doctor must have been even more recent. What’s wrong with people who, in this short a time frame, are immediately focused on the interruption of his “needs”?

54. @17

    oh hai!
    you found one.

55. #27, I completely agree that drinks alone with a former lover is inappropriate when you’re married. As you say, “if you guys are such good friends that you want to keep in touch, then your spouses should be hanging out with you.”

    #20, who’s decided that the wife is “tightly wound”, and on what grounds? Did you decide that just because her spouse wants to have drinks with a former lover but isn’t willing to invite her along? If so, you’re wrong. Did he decide that, and you’re just taking his word for it that he was totally honest with her and that she has no reason to be worried? You’re sure his intentions were totally innocent? You’re sure he’s always been rock-solid faithful to his wife? For that matter, you’re sure you’re intentions are so pure, when you seem disappointed to have the drinks discontinued, but I don’t see you asking for a casual lunch with old flame and his wife together, since the “friendship” is so nice to rekindle? Somehow I wouldn’t blame any of this on her supposed “insecurity.”

56. @ 3: “Looks like we need a new acronym — MFDHA: MotherF–ker, Dump Him/Her Already. … I think it’s needed in the lexicon. Not quite as catchy, though…”

    Good points.

    How about JLMF. Just leave, motherfucker.

57. @48 – Stephen Colbert might be the only “Republican” that Dan could convince to “choose to be gay” for a week. Wouldn’t that be awesome?

    I’m really surprised the number of people who took Dan’s mention of Colbert being a choicer seriously. Stephen Colbert frequently references gay being a choice on his show when the topic comes up, but it is OBVIOUSLY part of his satire of the right, and Dan is poking fun of that here.

58. @57, he himself characterized his wife as tightly wound, and it sounds like you’re quite familiar with that state of mind!

59. Right, why did he call his wife “tightly wound”? And how would she feel about him describing her this way to you, a former lover, over drinks alone?

    And now because I’m asking some critical questions, you insult me as tightly wound too? Okay, never mind, maybe you and her hubby really are a good match and should keep having those drinks.

60. @29
    I think you have it right. Even if desire is innate, a fair reading of “choicers” is that people choose whether to act on their desires or not.

    Clearly, the consensus here is that homosexual sex is not immoral. Among those who find it immoral, however, the more reasonable among them argue that the sin is not the desire, but acting on it.

    As far as I can tell, the entire dispute is over whether homosexual sex is immoral. I see no other difference between Rick Santorum’s position on homosexual acts and Dan Savage’s notion of “gold-star” pedophiles.

61. The odds of a first time dick-sucker getting you, Dan Savage, multiple times dick-sucked, off, are pretty low. So I can’t imagine him swallowing your load.

62. @50: I’m not defending her, clearly she still HAS a sex life with her boyfriend, but I’m married to a man who is 100% perfect except that we do not have sex and he has zero attraction to me. We’ve been married two years, and he kept assuring me things would get better, but they have only petered out. Is our relationship only about sex? No. But is sex a crucial fucking factor? You betcha.

    @52: Come on, Jesus. What an imagination(and what a waste of mental energy!). It’s clear that she decided to cross the line at some point, but there’s no reason to believe that the decision was made beforehand, particularly since she did say the drinks were innocent to start with. I didn’t hear her excusing herself with alcohol even a little- I would expect that people who do that would at least claim to feel a little bad. Why not believe her?

    GHTR needs to dump her boyfriend sooner rather than later for both their benefits. The only alternative is facing up to their issues promptly and seriously, with professional help, in hopes that she could regain attraction to him.

63. @55, I completely agree. The red flag for me in C&H’s letter was that the husband was making physical plans now in these emails for threesomes- asking when and where they could meet. To me, that doesn’t say, “making plans for the hazy future when wifey is ready again”, that says, “back to business sooner rather than later”.

    The most charitable explanations are that he misunderstood his wife when they discussed putting off threesomes, or that he is under the sincere yet misguided belief that hot bi sex will take her mind off the miscarriage.

    I don’t know what he could be thinking, sending these emails KNOWING that his wife is NOT eager to fuck these chicks. Dan’s thesis is quite plausible, if he were only flirting and not making plans. I am a little concerned that he might try to pressure her into it, which is- say it with me, kids!- coercive sexual abuse!

64. I saw a lovely bit of film once: On-the-street interviews. First question: Do you believe that being gay is a choice? Second question: When did you choose to be straight?

65. I have a tough time actually thinking the hubby really does give a damn about the miscarriage. Maybe he’s ‘grieving’ by returning to familiar fun w/o regard for where the wife is in all this? Yeah, right.

    Or maybe he didn’t actually want a baby, the growing of which will surely affect other hot, bi, 30-somethings wanting to play with them?

    Plenty of men take a miscarriage emotionally seriously. From her letter, I’m not getting that this guy is one of those. Dan’s being way too generous.

66. John Cummins is a washed-up has-been ex-federal politician who is leading a party that traditionally gets less than 1% of the vote in BC (the BC Conservatives are not linked with the federal Conservatives). He is not worth the amount of ink you just wasted on him.

    My own response to those who say gay is a choice is, so what? Even if it IS a choice, it still doesn’t mean we should be discriminated against. Bisexuals, in fact, do have a choice when they pair up with the same gender, but they have as many human rights as anyone. In fact, if I had the choice, I’d still choose to be gay. So, who cares if being gay is a choice or not? It’s moot. Even those who choose to be gay, if that’s possible, deserve just as much protection as those who choose to be Christians or Mormons.

    As Dan knows, people can choose to be or not to be Catholic, so if religious people get human rights protections, so do those who “choose” to be gay. Choice isn’t the issue. The argument won’t be won until that’s acknowledged. It’s not like we’ve been born with some disability that we’re all down on ourselves about. Let’s just pretend it’s a choice and say “SO WHAT” live and let live.

67. @ 22 I read a book once called sperm wars, and in one chapter the author presented a hypothesis that being gay is a genetic mutation. His hypothesis was that being gay started out as being Bi, which was advantageous for men and women because they became better at sex and relationships, and thus had more oppurtunites to pass thier genes, and the Bi gene along to thier offspring. His hypothesis for the gay gene was it was two much of the Bi gene. Thats the basic argument.

68. amanda@37, no that is definitely not my marriage, or yours, i’m happy to hear. it is, i’m afraid, a whole lot of other marriages i’ve witnessed, either in the media or in person. it would appear to be “the oprah standard,” as i’ve come to think of it. i never meant to imply that this was the monogamy HAD to be, only how a whole lot of americans seem to interpret it.

69. oh, and btw, @22 et al., there is so far as i know no evidence for gayness being genetic. rather, the science so far would indicate that it is something that happens in utero–basically, it’s fetal environment, not genes that determine sexual orientation.

70. Where is “confused & hormonal” hubby finding all of these great hot, bi 30ish girls? Been looking for 2 years now!! I don’t want sound like a ass though. You guys will be fine! You should talk to him again and again about any feelings with the miscarriage. Keep a open line!!!

71. @57/61 – I agree with you that scary tyler moore’s ex-lover’s wife shouldn’t be categorized as “insecure” or “tightly wound” for objecting to them repeatedly going out for drinks without her.

    But I would amend your first sentence to: “Having drinks alone with a former lover is inappropriate when you’re monogamous.” My husband encourages me to have drinks and more with my lovers of the past and present.

72. @64 – What do you think explains your husband’s disinterest in sex? How old are you both? Has he always been this way? What do you know about his sexual history?

73. @74, it’s complicated. He comes from an anti-sexual family, where the belief was that sex is unloving; he has a very unusual fetish; and he’s coping with depression, managed by medication that kills what libido he’s got. The entire time we’ve been engaged and married, he has ejaculated twice. We are both in our late twenties, and I know his sexual history intimately since I was his first girlfriend and we’ve talked about this in great detail. He hasn’t always been this way, and I think without the medication issue he could have faked his way through, but at this point the very idea of sex together is unbelievably stressful for both of us. I believe that we could explore his fetish together with great success, if nothing else were complicating this. He has this underlying belief, too, that because he early chose to reject sex as a motivating factor in his relationships, he’s a better and more ethical person than those of us who think sex is important. So, it’s incredibly difficult, and it feels like a huge slog even without my emotional issues laid on top.

74. @17 Holy shit. So true.

75. @12/13:
    One of my male friends (whom I’ve known for decades, entirely platonic) is not even allowed to friend me or any other woman on Facebook because of his girlfriend’s crazed jealousy. It’s absolutely bizarre. When he tried to explain it I asked him in some confusion if we’d ever had a fling that I’d forgotten about, that she would be so insecure. Nope. She’s just crazed.

76. @64/75, forgive me, but he does not sound like “a man who is 100% perfect except that we do not have sex.” Your husband is ill, and sanctimonious, and more fucked up by his family than most of us. Why do you see it as your lot in life to be married to him? Also, I’m curious whether he would let you take care of your sexual needs elsewhere, since they are so unimportant to him.

77. Sorry, but anyone can (and many do) give a blowjob for reasons other than liking it. Rather, we need to see the old coot on his back with a hard dick inside him, screaming while ejaculating with an erection (I can’t believe I’m writing this while eating…).
    I think there is some sort of bizarre brain virus that originated in the US and has made its way into Canada. First we elect Harper, now this. It’s the apocalypse of sanity.

78. @3 I propose DtPSA – Dump the Poor Sod Already.

79. GHTR: Nothing makes a boyfriend feel “loved” more than a girl who is anxious about moving in with him, isn’t interested in him sexually but enjoys sex with her friend, and lies to him. I’m glad that she “loves him very much.” I hate to imagine what she would do to the guy who she doesn’t “love very much.”
    C & H: Guys don’t accidentally leave their email accounts open if they don’t truly want their wife to read them. This is a very “guy way” of “accidentally” telling her that he misses their group activities and wants to know if she is ready to get back in the game. If he wanted to step out without her and without her knowing, he would have opened a new untraceable email account

80. “tightly wound”… I second the commenter above: if you think a man’s wife is keeping him on an overly-short leash, there’s a decent chance he’s done something to lose her trust (or vice versa, happens to both genders). With the infidelity rate quite high by many estimates, you have to accept when there are trust issues in a marriage, it might not just be an “insecure wife” to blame. And the feminist in me is just plain offended by that characterization!

81. @9,

    When I read the Colbert reference, my very first thought was “Somebody is going to think he’s calling Colbert a bigot.” Congrats, you’re the somebody.

    As someone has probly already mentioned, the quotation marks around Colbert’s name mean that Dan was referring to Colbert as the character he plays on his show, NOT Colbert himself.

    Thus ends today’s condescending grammar lesson.

82. “Unless you’re planning to put your boyfriend painlessly to sleep in the very near future, GHTR, there’s no way to avoid hurting him.” Oh, Dan.

    I didn’t want him to suffer…. It was the humane thing to do.

    jill
    http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…

83. @78: I choose to be married to him. It is a hard thing to keep choosing sometimes, but not only is marriage important to me, but my husband is worth it, in my eyes. He is the only person I have ever loved, or been in love with. I have tried before to change that, when we were broken up, and failed pretty spectacularly; I would not place bets on whether I could be successfully married or in a relationship with someone else, but I do estimate that I will not stop loving him anytime soon.

    I know very well that he is struggling with his issues the best he can; the medication in particular is a very difficult thing for him, because he is dependent on it to function. We are in therapy, and I’m trying to focus on the next step rather than bring the whole thing crashing down. I have proposed opening up the relationship to him, because I’m wired such that sex does not in any way make me attached to someone; he is not ready for that, and he’s hoping we won’t need to resort to that.

    This is an incredibly rough time for me and for him, and I can only respond to both our needs with compassion. Judgment and blame has only made this more difficult.

84. “You can’t honestly believe that drinks alone with an old lover is appropriate behavior for either a husband or a wife. That’s just tempting fate. People are weak, and repeatedly putting yourself in a position like that is dumb. If you guys are such good friends that you want to keep in touch, then your spouses should be hanging out with you.”

    That’s ridiculous. Why would I want to hang out with my partner’s old fling and her spouse? I have nothing in common with them and I don’t particularly want to count the ceiling tiles at the bar all night.

    If you need your spouse to be the warden of your genitals, you maybe need to see a shrink about developing some willpower.

85. Ugh, please save the grammer lessons for newsvine and yahoo
    Thanks though, I actually didn’t remember the quotation marks until I read your comment and scrolled back up.
    And no, after the very warm friendly appearances Savage has had on Colbert’s show I seriously doubted Savage was calling him a bigot or that Colbert is one.

86. I’m guessing that Dan mentions “Stephen Colbert” in quotes because he’s referring to the right-wing persona of Colbert in his show. Colbert’s character is definitely a choicer!

87. No, Dan, it’s a trap! The “Choicers” have a much higher probability of being closet cases, based on the prevalence of gay-sex scandals among their leaders (which makes sense: why would anyone not practicing sexuality as a conscious choice think that it could be a conscious choice?). You’re just providing Cummins with plausable deniability for enacting his cock-sucking desires while simultaneously ‘proving’ (not actual proof in any sense) that homosexuality is a choice (as an orientation; I maintain that they’re correct that homosexual behaviors are a conscious choice, though celibacy or fucking people to whom one isn’t attracted aren’t going to be easy for most people). While I think the “behaviors are a choice, and therefore homosexual behaviors should be banned” position is absurd, because there’s no good reason to make sex acts that don’t involve coercion, deceit, or direct force illegal, they’re not wrong in claiming that it’s possible (if extremely difficult for most people) to not have certain/all kinds of sex. Homosexuality qua desire/orientation – not a choice; homosexuality qua behaviors – a choice, though not an easy one.

    Really, though, it doesn’t matter in the slightest if homosexuality is a choice in any sense, as there’s no legitimate basis to deny gay people human rights (other than living), religious or otherwise. There’s a religious basis for execution in Christianity and Islam, but not for limited rights in the absence of an execution penalty for male-male sex acts.

    Again, I think all of this is absurd, but I don’t think letting the crazies dictate the discourse as one about “choice” (same losing discursive construction as the one around abortion), especially since it constitutes argument by non sequitur, is a good idea. Instead, I’m a fan of something like, “Choice is irrelevant; gay people hurt no one through their behaviors, so passing laws to ban the behaviors or marginalize the group is unethical and frankly vindictive. We are an explicitly secular state, and, as such, your religious doctrines have no place in public policy. Asshole.”

88. @85 – I sympathize with your painful situation. And if you ask me to stop pushing on this topic, I will. But in case my words are of any use to you… You say “We are in therapy” – if you’re not already seeing someone just for you, I recommend that, to help you figure out what is important to you in life. How old are the two of you? Do you like him (as well as loving him)? Do you like yourself? What makes you happy?

89. @85 Following up myself @90 – if you want to take this to email (to keep it going or shut down the conversation), you can reach me on gmail at EricaPSavage.

90. Drinks alone with old lovers is fraughts with danger. Remember, the conscience is the part of the human psyche that is most readily soluble in alcohol

91. @86 – have you been in this situation, encouraging your wife to go party with an former lover, or is it hypothetical to you? For most monogamous marriages, it’s pretty good advice to avoid tempting fate by combining impaired judgment with familiar (but off-limits) sexual vibes.

92. hi Dan just confused on why you had to compare people who don’t believe the official story of 9/11 to racists and homophobes, pretty lazy and not like you to make such a strange hit and run association. Is this the level of intellectual discourse now, to question a clearly false story and then be compared to jingoistic racists?

93. Hamish 108 @ 79 is right on. At any given moment there are dozens if not hundreds of straight men down on their knees giving head because that’s what they need to do to get by. Heck, I bet that John Cummins is so tied to his political position that he’s be happy to go down on Dan if that “proved” homosexuality was a choice.

    Unfortunately, those who do not want to believe cannot be made to believe. These days, from climate change to the need to control entitlement spending, we have shown an increasing ability to jettison hard facts in favor of our dogma.

94. I look forward to the day when I can read the words “Life” and “Choice” and not think it’s about abortion.

    Heh. I remember American Dad putting the conservative protagonist in a position in which he had to be gay to get what he wanted. He was all, “But I WANT to be gay!” and it didn’t work. It’s sad when the Fox Network is smarter than a politician.

95. Erica, I accept your amendment, and would say it’s not okay to be meeting old lovers privately for drinks unless you have your current lover’s permission.

    Humorless, I don’t think this demand is the same thing as needing “your spouse to be the warden of your genitals”. Rather, it’s simply the way to show respect for your spouse’s feelings. Spouses should be able to socialize freely with others, and in theory should be able to remain friends with former lovers. These things aren’t okay when they come at the expense of excluding a spouse who doesn’t want to be excluded, though, or otherwise violating trust. To me, having drinks twice with a former lover, to whom you then complain that your spouse is tightly wound, is really crossing the line. I have to socialize with many married male colleagues at work, and I make a point of wanting to include their wives in social activities when possible, just like I enjoy including my spouse and sharing my social life with him. Something is wrong when that’s not happening and the spouse dislikes it.

    GHTR who cheated on her bf is just a psycho, though. That goes WAY beyond. I hope for his sake that she moves along. How can you even consider moving in with someone you’re blithely cheating on and aren’t even attracted to anymore? Sociopath, maybe?

96. You know Dan, someday the choicer choice is going to bite you in the ass, and you’re going to find some closet-case gaybasher of a politician on the end of your cock.

    And the very next day, they’ll be telling the world about how being gay is this Evil Addiction That Must Be Stopped, just look at how that temptation has led *them* down the road to hell, wocka wocka, and they’ll be spouting how being gay is a choice, and, well, infinite loop: n. See: loop, infinite.

    Personally, I’d stick with “So is being Christian.” Religious rights are equally protected under the law, in spite of the fact that you can change religions as often and as blithely as you change socks, and still have every legal protection for it.

97. @75 So, it’s incredibly difficult, and it feels like a huge slog even without my emotional issues laid on top.

    Um, is he your husband, child or patient? I’m having as hard a time swallowing the “innocence” of drinks alone with ex-lovers as I am the line about “not making personal relationships about sex” as a higher moral calling of ascetic and selfless self-denial. I think he’s sold you a line.

    However, even if that’s a deeply uncharitable and wrong reading of your post, I’d still like you to consider: marriage is not a suicide pact (metaphorical or literal). EricaP is quite right that you should be able to have someone to talk to just for yourself. Be nice to yourself too.

98. Hey Dan,

    I think the “Choicer Challenge” you made here iswas a brilliant piece of propaganda, and I’d like to be able to directly link to it without having to instruct people on where in the article to look. Is there any way you could provide a link that gets directly to that portion of the text; it seems like something that would be fantastic if it went viral.

99. I know that Americans are profoundly ignorant about politics north of the border but one would hope that living in Washington State might make you wiser. The Conservative Party in British Columbia most likely consists of one man. The Conservatives hold no seats in the provincial legislature and are unlikely ever to do so. The parties that count in British Columbia are the Liberal Party and the New Democratic Party, both of which have gays in their memberships.

100. Dan, I just don’t get your ‘suck my dick’ challenge. Any reasonable person knows that a straight guy who chose to suck you off for political reasons would not become gay. Anyone can ‘choose’ to do things they find distasteful, if it serves some other purpose. Doesn’t prove anything.

     Choicers deny that some people have an innate valid same-sex orientation; by basically agreeing that gays are just people who choose to ‘perform’ gay ‘acts’, you are buying into their frame of reality.

101. Pregnancy hormones are just one of the reasons why I would hesitate about electing a female president. C&H needs to think of the BIG picture instead of marinating in her own grief and looking for ways to strike out (yes anger is one of the stages and Dan missed this one big time). I have been through 3 miscarriages, an abortion, and a newborn baby who died so I know plenty about grief. In a long term marriage/relationship you must look down the road beyond your immediate pain. Next year, or the year after that, or the year after that, you will probably be pregnant again. You will get over your loss and new duties, babies, and responsibilities will salve the pain, but never completely.

     But the important thing to understand is that through all this your significant other will still be there- assuming you are thinking long term.

     Pregnancy hormone induced stress about your hubby (who has not had sex in weeks!) trying to line up 3-somes with what he thought was his partners assent sounds like someone not looking down the road. In fact it sounds downright manipulative, if not cruel. Just saying.

     The girl @#!*% who can’t keep her clit in her pants is just hitting the destruct button because she is comfortable now that they are moving in together. I thought Dan was harsh on telling her to dump him but after some thought I realized something- if she acts this way when she gets the security of moving in, imagine how she is going to act after the wedding! Way to go Dan!

     As to all the feminist anti-patriarch blathering idiots who spew the anti-male bias that permeates our society..I say it is time to grow up and get over it. Women are way, way ahead of men in education, law school, medical school, money for hours worked, health at every stage of life, longevity, accidental death, serious diseases, elementary education, and just about every other measure. Something like 1/2 of young boys grow up without a strong male figure (and the same number are on Ritalin) I think mostly because his daddy/sperm donor is beaten down by his liberated woman. In case you haven’t noticed the patriarchy is fast becoming a matriarchy so get over it already.

     Now you admit women can make a choice to go to the island of Lezbos and kill all the men. I say fine. I haven’t needed a woman since I duck taped that flesh light to my labradoodle. Here puppy..

102. Regarding drinks out with someone… I like the comment about setting boundaries. So if you want to be in a relationship and still be able to go out solo with people you could potentially be attracted to and get a little toasty, that’s pretty important information to divulge upfront. That sounds a lot like a date. And maybe you’re cool with it, and there’s no hidden agenda that it will turn into something. I say it’s tempting fate. So let me know upfront and we’ll choose to avoid each other’s types when we are looking for relationships. I’ve been the sap who’s trusted someone and lost. I’ll trust again, but I’ll also be clear that if I’m someone’s guy, I expect that to change how they socialize with other guys one-on-one. That’s part of my deal. Call me quaint, that’s just the way I am.

     I was surprised as my last relationship started to unravel to find that my spouse of 10+ years and I weren’t on the same page on what was cool and what was not. It would be great if someone came up with a checklist of things people could fill out to say (this is cool / this isn’t) and compare up front. It would include in-person behaviors like going out, but would also include things like social network behavior. For example, no big deal to me if you friend your old flame. But not really cool with extended chat sessions with them, or even exchanging flirty ‘pokes’.

103. Why in the world would anyone want to suck Dan’s dick?

     OK well, I would, even though I’m a total top, but that is like SO not the point…

104. This whole column makes me realize anew that Dan is the coolest guy ever!

105. 22 & 51, please DON’T go to Stephen Pinker for insight on evolutionary sexuality! He’s a linguist, and when he gets off topic he’s quickly out of his depth. It’s true that “simplecomplicatedme” has an over-simple view of how selection works, but just learning some more biology should help that.
     There are more sensible theories out there that try to explain homosexuality in evolutionary terms. Like that it may increase the spread of one’s genes by contributing to the fitness of one’s RELATIVE’S offspring (e.g., the gay person’s nieces and nephews). Considering the number of societies in which the “paternal” figure in raising children is not the biological father, but the mother’s brother, that seems not unreasonable. But I’m no expert. Experts exist though, so check them out (just not Stephen Pinker)

106. Dan’s rant about the politician “sucking his dick” put him into the “wronged at high school” category of putting forth an argument. Yea, sure, he was probably a bit steamed when he wrote it but there is a more obvious point to make about one’s sexuality being a “choice.”
     The politician has essentially stated that the default setting for EVERYONE’S sexuality would be homosexuality or lesbianism. To know that one has a “choice” is to have awareness of what one is choosing. Since being gay would be the “odd” choice for one to make then there must be a basis for the choice in the first place. If it were a “choice” at all then there wouldn’t be a history of it dating back to, well, pretty much for as long as humans have kept records nor would animals display homosexual tendencies but they DO. Is this guy also saying that animals are on a par with humans regarding cognitive capabilities? Is my cat a lesbian? She DOES like laying next to me watching movies in a “spooning” fashion. Does she fancy me?
     He is also implying that each person feels “comfortable” with the freedom of making the choice of their own sexuality but we know that isn’t the case. If one is a teenager or a child with enough awareness of how being gay is perceived in just about every society on Earth, then the obvious “choice” would be to be heterosexual yet millions of people do not “choose” this sexuality. They “choose” to be gay but why would anyone choose a life where they are denied some of the protections by law that heterosexual people take for granted? People who put forth the “choice” argument can never sufficiently answer the question as to “why” anyone would go through all that trouble to make their life THAT difficult.
     What is astonishing is that there are people like this guy who care so much about who others are or aren’t fucking. I predict a “sex scandal” of the same sex variety in this guy’s future. It would not be surprising one bit if we find out this guy’s been keeping a rent boy on retainer.
     My brother is gay and I knew before he did that he would end up being with a man in life. Granted, he is three years younger than me, so he would have just known he “feels different” but probably just didn’t have the words for it. He went into the Marines, went to Japan, all the while with my mother saying, “oh, he’ll probably bring back a Japanese girlfriend” and I can remember thinking, “or, he’ll bring back his bunkmate.”
     Now, almost 25 years later, he has been with his future husband for about 7 years and I find it hard to believe that this ex-Marine, CHURCH CHOIR SINGING, truck driving, over-sized “bear” of a man would “choose” to have the hassle of being with his boyfriend in Redneckville, Tennessee if he didn’t feel it from within his very being.
     He could have just brought that Japanese girlfriend back.

107. #103, your comment about fearing a female president is not just gratuitous but stupid. When has any U.S. president been elected during what would be a woman’s “childbearing years”? The one hormone that’s done the most to fuck up the presidency is clearly testosterone.
     Andy FYI, women certainly do NOT make “more money for hours of work than men.” You could find that out with a few clicks of a mouse, if reading is too hard.
     As for our patriarchy becoming a matriarchy, I guess all the MEN in Congress passing anti-women legislation missed the memo. But then, what could we expect from someone who after 5 unsuccessful pregnancies, glibly states, “you’ll probably be pregnant again in a year”? Sorry if that’s mean, but maybe you should take a rest on the fertility marathon and read a few good books instead.

108. @ Professor – go TROLL somewhere else!
     Golly, you get so much attention with all of your emotional rantings so one would hope that that would be enough.
     Your words aren’t even up to a level worth reading.
     Youtube and the Daily Mail are the places for YOU. There are plenty of misogynistic, bitter, overly emotional, ruled-by-their-hormones men who hate women on those sites.
     Why not go there.

109. #71, there IS TOO evidence for gayness being at least partially genetic (as well as evidence that fetal environment has something to do with it). If one member of a pair of fraternal (dizygotic) twins is gay, the other has about a 30% chance of being gay. With identical (monozygotic) twins, it’s 50%. ‘Nuff said.

110. As always, I loved the column, but the Sweeney Todd reference will leave me feeling all warm and fuzzy inside for a week. (You know, in a kinda murderous, cannibalistic way.)

111. @55: “:In short, the husband took on some of her agency in this matter, and singlehandedly set a timetable for resuming relations relatively soon.”

     Timetables require, uh, times.

     I will grant that telling a specific third party that Wife is hot for her, when he hasn’t so much as shown Wife a picture, is problematic, but mostly to the third party who is being lied to, and not so much to the Wife who is being left to handle her recuperative process in peace. On the other hand, Husband is not mistaken to operate under the assumption that Wife will _eventually_ be enthusiastic about the idea on general principles, so he is not stretching the truth too terribly much about a particular partner being appealing to his wife. (Surely he knows her taste in women by now.) Mostly he is stretching the truth only along the axis of timeframes, which, again, he is leaving unspecified.

     If he is mistaken in this assumption — in other words, that threesomes may well have been taken off the table entirely, quite possibly permanently, and he should be operating under that assumption — then that really should have been made clear at the outset. Assuming that she is going to eventually be back in the game, it isn’t a horrible transgression to keep the arrangements warmed up, provided that he doesn’t actually a) involve her before she is ready or b) follow through on it solo.

     Regarding the “THREE WEEKS” that have your knickers in a knot: Letter Writer already made it clear that outside partners are hard to find in their neck of the woods. If he waits six months for her to get back in the mood, and only then begins looking, it may well be six more months before they find someone, vet her thoroughly, and actually go through with the deed, whereupon your “THREE WEEKS” has magically transmogrified into “A YEAR.”

112. One memorable moment from a debate between Kerry and Bush… The narrator asked if w thought homosexuality is a choice and he said yes. The narrator missed an opportunity to ask w the obvious question. If homosexuality is a choice, then heterosexuality is a choice. Mr Bush, can you tell us about the time you had a choice between homo or hetero sexuality and you made the choice to be hetero?

113. @65: “The red flag for me in C&H’s letter was that the husband was making physical plans now in these emails for threesomes- asking when and where they could meet.”

     Without seeing the wording, it is unclear to me how definite those plans really were. I will agree that the specifics are important in deciding whether he is rushing his wife back into action, or merely keeping his hand in the game.

114. Prof;

     As much as I do ironically enjoy your I-hate-mommy trolling, I have to raise a couple little points.

     Though women in the western world do tend to acheive academically, I would argue that there are more salient measures of success.

     Women are more likely to have depression, anxiety, harm themselves or attempt suicide. Though there are a number of mental illnesses for which men and women are roughly equal the only DSM catagory where men strip ahead is the philias. They tend to have lower self-esteem and they have to worry about sexual assualt while men generally don’t (outside of prison).

     Though women preform academically (it’s my understanding that this does not translate to the working realm) I would argue that when a more direct look at their quality of life is examined, it would be pretty stupid to try to assert that in this day and age women have it “better” than men. Men and women face unique challenges to their genders because they are DIFFERENT from eachother. Bitching and moaning about who has it worse distracts from making things better for everyone.

     Also, the ritalin comment is pretty spurious since any idiot knows that girls with ADHD are much less likely to be diagnosed (and get help!) than boys because they are more likely to be of the “PI” type (primarily inattentive) than the combined type or primarily hyperactive/impulsive and don’t cause a ruckus in the classroom (the number one reason why teachers seem to care about a student’s mental health issues).

     Oh, and nice job on that theory you pulled out of your ass about ADHD and lack of a “strong male figure”. The ratios are the same? (By the way, they’re not.) Thats your causation argument? That’s not even a fucking correlation. The “professor” name is meant to be a joke, right?

     I would by NO MEANS describe myself as a feminist, but your “the pendulum has swung the other way” bullshit is ridiculous and incredibly biased.

115. Also: Bill Clinton is famous for having let hormones cloud his judgement. He was still a good president.

116. To GHTR: Let’s paraphrase your arguments, as if you were informing dear beloved Boyfriend of the situation:

     1) Moving in with you makes me nervous;
     2) I no longer find you sexually attractive;
     3) I’m completely giddy over this other guy — who, oh, by the way, fucked my brains out last night, an outcome that makes me feel mostly great and not in the least guilty towards you;
     4) I love you dearly.

     Sing with me, kids!
     “Three of these things belong together,
     Three of these things are kind of the same,
     But one one these things is not like the others,
     Now it’s time to play our game,
     It’s time to play our game!”

     Honestly, stupid, what would YOU do if you were on the receiving end of that line of reasoning?

117. 107, danfan– You’re right that Pinker’s not the best. He’s wordy and complicated, but he does get to the heart of the randomness of natural selection well. I liked his essay on the evolution of the eye. (I forget which book the chapter is in.)

     I’d heard the theory about male homosexuality improving the survival chances of a greater number of nieces and nephews also. It made some sense to me when I heard it. My point, though, is that there needn’t be an evolutionary reason. It could be random. I don’t see anyone wondering how Down’s syndrome is an adaptive advantage in disguise, how the brothers and sisters of people with Down’s syndrome have more offspring that have a greater chance of survival. Or cerebral palsy. Or miscarriages. Or a dandelion wasting resources on seeds that won’t hit fertile ground. Are they helping their genetically related sister seeds by landing on concrete or water?

118. That’s right, @112. And in both cases they shared the same fetal environment.

     Also, unrelated, the quotes around “Stephen Colbert” were put in later. I contend that it is still obvious that Dan was referring to his character…

119. PhD in biology here, let me try and clear some things up.

     @22, @51: There can’t be a gene “for homosexuality.” How would it get passed on? (Even including those who breed anyway, it doesn’t add up). However, contrary to what @71 thinks, there IS evidence of genetic bases of homosexuality (e.g., twins more likely than fraternal siblings to both be gay, who are in turn more likely than non-relatives). Genes are complicated, most traits are the result of many genes, whose expression can interact with the environment (including the prenatal environment!). That means that it is likely that many of the alleles involved in homosexuality have increased humans’ reproductive fitness over the years, but sometimes certain combinations of genes in certain early environments can result in homosexuality.

     As for @22,24’s theory about overpopulation, I’m glad you’re thinking about this stuff, but your idea doesn’t work. Imagine two groups, Group A, which has a trait that curbs population growth, and Group B, which doesn’t. Group B grows faster than Group A, and soon outcompetes with A for resources. In the biology jargon, Group A is not an “evolutionarily stable strategy” against Group B.

     Finally, @51, @107, Pinker’s OK. He knows his evolutionary theory, to a point. SJ Gould is better, being a prominent (late) evolutionary theorist. No single author is going to have everything or get everything perfect – evolutionary theory encompasses a lot (explaining all of life and all), so if you really want to learn about it, you may need multiple sources.
     For the lay reader, I can recommend Richard Dawkins’ “The Blind Watchmaker,” Gould’s “Wonderful Life,” David Barash’s “The Survival Game,” and Daniel Dennett’s “Darwin’s Dangerous Idea” (Dennett is a philosopher, but he’s done his homework).

120. I think a lot of these conservative “choicers” might be so emphatic about this because they are really struggling to “choose” a straight life themselves. I was never politically conservative, but as a gal raised Catholic in a small town I sure did try to enjoy sex and relationships with men as hard as I could (hoping that I was one of those bi girls who could just choose never to act on her feelings) before finally coming out at 23.

     There is an element of choice involved, is what I learned. You can choose to be happy, or choose to be miserable.

121. I think a lot of these conservative “choicers” might be so emphatic about this because they are really struggling to “choose” a straight life themselves. I was never politically conservative, but as a gal raised Catholic in a small town I sure did try to enjoy sex and relationships with men as hard as I could (hoping that I could just choose to never act on my feelings) before finally coming out at 23.

     There is an element of choice involved, for sure. You can choose to be happy, or you can choose to be miserable.

122. Mad lols at the sheer number of people who are bewildered at the sarcastic inclusion of “Stephen Colbert.” He even put it in quotations. Oblivious much?

123. The “choice” argument for discrimination is a big honking fat red herring. I DO NOT BELIEVE THAT BEING GAY IS A CONSCIOUS CHOICE. But if I did, how would that justify treating people as second-class citizens?? Dan’s interest in cock shouldn’t have any more bearing on his civil rights than mine does (I’m a straight chick). Not only are “choicers” factually wrong, they’re arguing for a grounds for discrimination that would be morally indefensible even if it were right.

124. @EricaP —

     Thanks for the reply. I agree with Suzy and avast, though.

     @Suzy

     Thanks for saying everything I was thinking!

125. You know what? Religious belief is a fucking choice too, so let’s remove all legal protection for religious freedom from our laws.

     These shitheads piss me off with their grotesque, hateful hypocrisy.

     Make the choice to go fuck yourselves, you conservative dicks.

126. Wow, I’m Canadian and I had not heard of Cummins statement before. I’m especially surprised since he is a former federal Member of Parliament and our newspapers are usually to pounce on any lunatic statements from Conservatives since they’re kept on a tight leash.

     I have to correct you, however. Cummins is not the leader of the British Columbia Conservative Party, he is a candidate for its leadership.

     The leadership will be decided on May 28, and even though the B.C. Conservatives are tiny and marginal force, we can hope a hateful asshole doesn’t end up their leader.

127. Wow, I’m Canadian and I had not heard of Cummins statement before. I’m especially surprised since he is a former federal Member of Parliament and our newspapers are usually to pounce on any lunatic statements from Conservatives since they’re kept on a tight leash.

     I have to correct you, however. Cummins is not the leader of the British Columbia Conservative Party, he is a candidate for its leadership.

     The leadership will be decided on May 28, and even though the B.C. Conservatives are tiny and marginal force, we can hope a hateful asshole doesn’t end up their leader.

128. http://mollyinpoortaste.com/post/5854454…

129. I have to agree with others that I’m sort of scratching my head over the inclusion of Stephen Colbert, even in quotes. Dan, you DO realize he is satire, right?

130. “As for @22,24’s theory about overpopulation, I’m glad you’re thinking about this stuff, but your idea doesn’t work. Imagine two groups, Group A, which has a trait that curbs population growth, and Group B, which doesn’t. Group B grows faster than Group A, and soon outcompetes with A for resources. In the biology jargon, Group A is not an “evolutionarily stable strategy” against Group B.”

     And yet sexual reproduction occurs when parthenogensis and asexual reproduction are far more efficient reproductive strategies and eclipses sexually reproducing species in terms of numbers and thereby competition for resources. The existence of males in general (of all species) seem quite a biological mystery as they contribute practically nothing to the fitness of a species, and are very costly from a fitness strategy perspective to almost all species. The point is that sexual reproduction doesn’t seem like an evolutionarily stable reproductive strategy, yet it exists and is, too, mysteriously the product of evolution. I don’t know if the red queen hypothesis is relevant here.

     Additionally but related, there aren’t really any identifiable genes behind intelligence yet discovered, either. But there are extraneous genes that determine intelligence in indirect ways. For example, the gene that determines the width and shape of the uterus contributes to IQ in that mothers with more narrow uteruses give birth to children with lower IQ’s due to the fact that when birthed, their brains are briefly starved for oxygen. Perhaps the underlying genetic reasons for sexual orientation (you forgot to mention that the aren’t identifiable genes for heterosexuality, either) are related in that they aren’t directly linked to expression of the trait, as per your suggestion.

131. It’s not a choice… It’s a superpower!

132. cough, cough, ahem, ahem. HE characterized his wife as tightly wound. not me. she couldn’t come along for drinks because she needed to be around when their son got home from school. had he suggested she join us, i would have been all for it. but then we couldn’t have reminisced about all that hawt sex we had as horny college students back in the ’70s and laugh a lot. when he told me about the situation, i said okay, i don’t want to cause any stress. as if i wanted to bonk him! please.

133. How would it make a difference if the Choicers were right? You don’t get to take choices away just because we have them.
     It seems like a mistake to argue with Choicers on facts when they haven’t even gotten their logic right.

134. avast2006, when the husband asks the prospective bi partners “when/where we can all hook up”, he’s setting a clear timetable of “soon”. Otherwise, what is he planning to say, when someone replies she’s free to hook up on Fridays? Great, keep us in mind and I’ll get back to you in six months? Nah, he’s just choosing to start this up again, in a way that’s both dishonest and disrespectful of his wife’s stated feelings.

     The three weeks is an important factor to me, yes. People grieve differently, sure, but this couple was trying to conceive for two YEARS and then lost their baby, and now only three weeks later, days after getting the doctor’s ok for any resumption of sex, he’s going behind her back to rekindle something she said she wasn’t ready for yet? If I were her, I’d feel like he wasn’t particularly upset about the loss of the baby, and that would be the most hurtful thing of all.

135. Scary, the fact that “HE characterized his wife as tightly wound” to the old flame with whom he was having drinks is not exactly helping your case that all was cool here. If either of you had wanted to include the wife on at least one of the occasions, you could have simply picked a time when she didn’t have to be home with their son. But hey, it’s nice that she wasn’t there to hamper your happy reminiscing about past sexytimes! Doubtless the only reason she’d have a problem with this is her own excessive insecurity.

136. That is the core of the “choice” argument…
     How many times does a straight person have to choose to be gay before they become gay?

137. 137: “he’s setting a clear timetable of “soon”.

     You don’t know their process for choosing partners or how long it takes to come to fruition.

     “Nah, he’s just choosing to start this up again, in a way that’s both dishonest and disrespectful of his wife’s stated feelings.”

     He CANNOT start this up again until she is ready to participate, otherwise nothing goes forward, end of story. Until he at very least brings this to her attention, he can’t possibly be said to have coerced her into anything.

     (Maybe leaving the email account open was passive-aggressive-deliberate, or maybe it wasn’t. Mistakes do happen.)

138. I really don’t get this whole “OMG it’s so bad for an attached person to hang out with an ex-lover” thing. You guys are acting as though a person can’t fuck anyone without feeling uncontrollable desire for them for the rest of their freaking lives.

     I’ve got a fair number of guys in my life that I’ve dated (or at least had casual sex with) at some point. Some of them, I broke up with because my attraction to them had faded (or I realized I hadn’t been that attracted in the first place!). Others, I broke up with because things just weren’t working…and, after some alone-time to grieve the relationship, my attraction to them went away, too…or at least subsided to a buzz of “I’d probably want to have sex with him again…if I weren’t already having regular and amazing sex with a hot, wonderful guy I’m in love with.”

     I mean, really…how good can your current relationship be if you’re super-tempted to cheat with someone you’d previously rejected?

     My boyfriend hangs out with an old fuckbuddy sometimes. I hang out with my ex-husband and one or two ex-lovers sometimes (and have like ten people in my extended social circle whom I’ve seen naked). It’s not a big deal because in all cases, the feelings are over.

     I’d say that it’s not inappropriate to spend time alone with an ex-lover; it’s only inappropriate to insist on being alone with an ex-lover. I don’t really know my bf’s ex-fuckbuddy, but he’s encouraged me to hang out with the two of them – I just haven’t had a chance yet because of schedule conflicts. If I wanted to come with him and he was all “NOOO! You can’t!” that would be a different thing entirely.

     Likewise, my boyfriend would be bored shitless hanging out while my husband and I traded decade-old inside jokes, but if he wanted to come along, that’d be fine. I have nothing to hide.

139. Another right on column again, Dan!

     @128: I second that!

140. @EricaP: I have, on several occasions, declined to be involved when the ex-lovers reunited. I have also, on several occasions, reunited with old partners alone. While there’s no way to know for certain, I’m confident that nothing untoward happened.

     When I was single, I frequently had drinks in bars with people I never groped. If you go into a situation not wanting to make out with someone, alcohol isn’t going to magically make it happen. Alcohol gives you an excuse to do what you already wanted to do, it doesn’t cause things to develop out of nowhere.

141. @58 Ooooh! I like that. JLMF (or should it be JL,MF?) Either way tho, thats a good one. Good call!

142. @3, 80–I vote for DtPTA–poor thing.

143. @143, I’m not suggesting anything untoward happened in your life. And we could argue all night about which is the “authentic” opinion of a person who didn’t want to have sex with an ex when sober, but decided to, after a couple of drinks. Everyone knows it happens. Not to you and yours, apparently, but to me and mine and many others.

144. @145 Not bad. I vote for DTPSA (poor schmuck).

145. For what it’s worth, BC’s party names are a bit misleading. Our BC liberals are really what you might consider conservative and our BC conservative party has about as much popularity as the marxist and marijuana party. It’s a fringe group.

146. I always read ALL the comments before posting, so of course, by that time I don’t usually feel like posting, as I’m kind of over it. But Thank You perversecowgirl @ 141!! Up until your comment, nobody else on here considered the possibility that most people are exes for a reason: even if that reason is merely that we’re not interested in bangin’ them anymore (or that we just sobered up & turned on the lights-whatever). I’ve been married 16 yrs & my husband has thankfully shed most of his insecurities. Someone posted earlier that its an American issue & I definitely agree. There was a study done just a few yrs ago, where the results were that most (tight-ass) Americans felt that infidelity is worse than incest! Yep… I’d like to meet you for drinks 141- & 12, 13, 17, 20, 64, 67, 77, 86, 106, 109, 128-but, I probably wouldn’t be able to control myself.

147. Hmmm, Dan’s comment that “you’re about as far from my type as a human being without a vagina gets” got me to wondering…

     Does the possetion of the right kind of naughty bits automatically put you ahead of someone with the wrong ones, no matter how disgusting you actually are?

     I personally have to believe that even for us non-bi folks, there are people of compatible gender who are so fucking disgusting that we’d really rather go for the other gender. I’m a straight girl, but if I had to choose between Dick Cheney and, say, Rachel Maddow, I don’t think it would be a hard choice at all. I’m not into women, but I think I’m into male monsters a lot less.

148. *sigh* Once you allow this disucssion to be framed in terms of choice, you’ve already lost. Because — and this is the important point — if it were a choice…that doesn’t matter. Making choices about how you live your life (I mean, unless they are harmful to others/robbing others of their own autonomy/&c.) doesn’t make you less worthy of equal rights and treatment, and, you know, basic human decency. It doesn’t matter _why_ you fuck the (legally-aged, fully-consenting) people you fuck, or why you shack up with them or marry them or whatever — that question of “why?” should not be allowed to enter into the discussion At All. Dan, if you were very much bi, and you could easily see yourself being happily partnered with a person of either gender, and decided to live with/marry someone male instead of someone female, would that suddenly make you less worthy of equal treatment, because you made that conscious choice? I think you would probably say that you should still be afforded the same rights as everyone else, regardless, and that right there is exactly why nobody should play into this discussion of choice. It is doing much more harm than anything else. Not to mention the fact that, in saying “I didn’t choose to be this way” what you are at the same time implying is “Look, if I had any control over this, I’d obviously be different, but I don’t, and I’m sorry — please cut me some slack”. And apologizing — explicitly or otherwise — for who or what you are is not something anyone should be doing. (I mean, look at the recent Slut Walks — that is their whole point, really — that it doesn’t matter how a woman chooses to dress or present herself or live her life, that still does not give anyone the right to (mis)treat her in any way, or regard her as less-than.)

149. Even if being gay or lesbian IS a choice (and I don’t think it is), so what? The law already protects plenty of choices: the choice of religion, the choice of political affiliation, and the choice to marry someone of a different race or religion. In fact, if the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution accomplish anything, it is to protect individual liberty–which is frankly a way of saying that they protect individual choice.

150. Although I admire the rhetorical flair of Dan’s invitation to choicers to choose to suck his dick, his argument is incredibly flawed. Choicers view being gay as a choice, but they also believe that it is a bad choice, a choice that they would (claim to) never make.

     Listing all the homophobic politicians who have turned out to be gay is a far stronger argument. Since those people claim that being gay is a choice and believe it is a bad choice, they have incentive not to make the choice, but they, nevertheless, make it, thereby essentially proving that being gay is not a choice after all.

     I understand that rhetoric can often be stronger than logic when you’re adressing people who agree with you anyway. But if you want to convince others, try to combine them, to say things that are just as powerful but that also make sense.

151. I love you, Dan Savage!

152. You ever notice how people “accidentally” end up having sex mostly when ALCOHOL is involved? It just seems like if your intentions are “innocent” you might actually just have coffee or food. Not an earth-shattering idea, I realize, but how many coffee dates do you know ended up with people inadvertently having sex?

153. I don’t even understand the premise of “if it’s a choice, it can’t be a right” thing. Religion is a choice, but no one goes around saying that since you chose it, people are free to discriminate against you.

     Instead of falling into the trap of arguing whether or not it’s a choice, gay rights activists should make it clear that, whatever it is, it’s a right.

154. I don’t have a Ph.D in biology, but I would like to point out that PLENTY OF HOMOSEXUALS reproduce and many of those WANT to. Many who don’t do participate in child rearing. So, it seems to me that it doesn’t hold water to say that homosexuality is some kind of population-reducer.

155. #51 damn right natural selection is random. However with in the random context gay relationships can prove to beneficial to the hunter gather societies we evolved from. I recommend Dan’s often recommend book Sex At Dawn.

156. Strong agreement with #39, #89, and everyone who followed: the trouble with the “it’s not a choice/we were born this way” argument is that it suggests that there would be something wrong with choosing to be gay. I do believe orientation is innate– whether genetic or due to the hormonal state of the womb or whatever– but denying that the actions can be chosen or not is just silly.

     Dan’s point seems to be that the “choicers” (if straight) can’t choose to want to be gay or not, and it’s a fair point. But it’s pretty simple for a choicer to argue that “we all have different temptations to sin– that doesn’t make gambling or lying less of a sin just because some people want one more than the other, or vice-versa.”

     We like the “this isn’t a choice because no-one would choose” it argument because it gets us sympathy. But it’s a much weaker argument than “there’s nothing wrong with this.” I very much like #39 et al’s point that other choices are protected (including being of a different religion, which fundamentalists would consider just as sinful)– why not this one?

157. perverse cowgirl, I have no problems with attached people hanging out with ex-lovers, even with alcohol involved. I DO have a problem with the person to whom one is attached being called tightly wound or insecure due to failure to appreciate this activity. There are many good reasons why one might not want one’s spouse having drinks with a former lover, that could range from the spouse’s reluctance to include you, or a former infidelity, and so on. I believe married people owe each other full disclosure about things like this, or at least need some kind of blanket permission to proceed, which is true even if they are nonmonogamous.

     Elsalover, I’m not sure that preferring incest to infidelity is, as you apparently assume, a sign of excessive uptightness. Indeed, it seems the other way around to me. Infidelity implies a betrayal that hurts people; incest might involve consenting adults making each other happy despite breaking a taboo against, say, first cousins being together. I’d be much less likely to judge the latter, and more likely not to want the former, but that doesn’t exactly make me uptight.

158. Ms Erica – Perhaps the variable that should be removed from the equation might be the alcohol? But then I’m a lifelong teetotaler and accordingly recuse myself.

159. @161 – yes, as 155 says, people don’t shed their morals over coffee. But the topic at hand is former lovers going out for drinks without their current partners, so I’m afraid if we subtract alcohol from both sides, we can’t say much at all.

160. I didn’t read all the comments, but Dan put “Stephen Colbert” in quotes because he was talking about the CHARACTER he plays on TV. Get a clue people.

161. Get a clue folks. Dan put “Stephen Colbert” in quotes because his CHARACTER proclaims that being gay is a choice. The man himself obviously doesn’t believe that.

162. Sometimes Dan, you’re such a fucking man. She might not even be done bleeding yet from this miscarriage and he’s already out thinking about fucking other chicks. That’s why she’s pissed. All that shit should be on hold. He’s thinking about strange pussy while she’s heartbroken over losing his baby. Goddamn.

     I’m in a similar type of relationship and it’s taken us seven years for him to GET IT that SOMETIMES it’s nto even appropriate to think about fucking. During my grandfather’s funeral, while I’m breastfeeding (as in during the actual sucking not during that time period in general) while I am taking a dump, these are times to not think about his penis.

     I have found men are really dumb about this in general and need extremely clear instructions. And I get it’s upsetting but once I stopped expecting him to be a fucking girl about it and realized that for men there’s no such thing as a bad time for fucking, we were able to work through it.

163. While I take the point that EXs are EX for a reason – and I do personally interact every now and again with my ex-wife – I also see big red flags in things like this:

     had he suggested she join us, i would have been all for it. but then we couldn’t have reminisced about all that hawt sex we had as horny college students back in the ’70s and laugh a lot.

     One of the most useful little rules I ran across for knowing what is and is not appropriate to say to someone who might potentially be a sex/romantic partner is this: would you be comfortable saying the same thing in front of your current primary partner? This rule was given in the context of workplace sexual harassment training (mandatory for all supervisors), but it strikes me as useful for everyone in all contexts and types of relationships (including open relationships).

     Whether or not you or the partnered person are interested in rekindling anything, the need to have a different conversation is telling. I had to re-learn this recently when I was using a friend (not even an ex) as a sounding board and discussing things (via email) with her I would not discuss in front of my partner.

164. @122: There have been some studies that showed homosexual behaviors in rats increasing when the rat community was overpopulated and overcrowded. I don’t think it is unreasonable to think that under some conditions, the genetic bases for homosexuality might be favored. We have seen before that individuals will sacrifice their ability to reproduce in order to support their kin’s reproduction, and I believe that if this hypothesis can be supported, the mechanism might be similar.

165. We must also commend politicians for taking solid steps to support equality such as Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton:

     http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/…

     In Canada Cummins won’t get votes on this social policy belief because largely we only have approximately 10% of an evangelical following country wide. The issue here is has been debated and there’s more important things like jobs, economy, healthcare and education to talk about.

     A fun history fact: we (Canadians) had our Obama in the 70’s and early 80’s – with Pierre Elliott Trudeau with his most famous line that, ‘Government has no place in the bedrooms of Canadians.’ And it has stuck.

     Of course we’re talking about consenting adults only for those who will split hairs.

166. We must also commend politicians for taking solid steps to support equality such as Minnesota Governor Mark Dayton:

     http://www.advocate.com/News/Daily_News/…

     In Canada Cummins won’t get votes on this social policy belief because largely we only have approximately 10% of an evangelical following country wide. The issue here is has been debated and there’s more important things like jobs, economy, healthcare and education to talk about.

     A fun history fact: we (Canadians) had our Obama in the 70’s and early 80’s – with Pierre Elliott Trudeau with his most famous line that, ‘Government has no place in the bedrooms of Canadians.’ And it has stuck.

     Of course we’re talking about consenting adults only for those who will split hairs.

167. Dan, I agree with you that these choicers are nut jobs. And Jim Cummins is a particularly annoying example of the lot, with his “This is what studies have said, but I’m not a scientist so don’t question me when I state my personal private views” as a public figure at a Salvation Army rally, which is a public, if homophobic event. But, and this is the point, even if this guy isn’t your type — have you seen Jim Cummins? He looks kind of like the tortoise in that youtube video — the one humping the Croc shoe, but he isn’t that cute…
     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6R3BYCT5o…
     this is the video.

168. (I think I need to credit John Waters’ book Role Models), but should it really matter whether homosexuality is a choice or not? Why would it being a choice justify unequal treatment under the law or discrimination?

169. To anybody making the “it’s a choice” argument, here’s my response.

     Thank you for making your position clear. You are advocating that individuals put aside what is in their hearts regarding whom to love, and instead “choose” some other person who is (apparently, to you at least) more expedient to society in general. In other words, you expect homosexuals to “choose” to renounce the person they truly love, and instead engage in marriage of convenience.

     Moreover, once they choose to do this, you won’t give their personal motivations a second thought, regardless of whether they choose to marry literally a stranger off the street, solely for the insurance benefits (which is their right under current law), so long as that person is of the opposite sex.

     As such, you have just lost the privilege of uttering the phrase “sanctity of marriage.”

170. @165: I don’t think it’s fair to say that a man should be ordered not even to think about fucking. He’s used to getting 3somes, and since that’s not on the table atm, he’s fulfilling his fantasy by chatting up potential 3some partners for some undetermined time in the future. Maybe he should have found another way to release tension, but he’s not forcing HER to think about sex (she stumbled upon his email), and no one is allowed to force him NOT to think about sex.

171. I love you, Dan Savage.

172. I love Dan Savage.

173. Best logic ever.

174. In a purported monogamous relationship I believe it matters if the ex-lover predates the current relationship or if they were a partner in an affair during the relationship. If the latter I can conceive of no circumstances under it would be appropriate for the former CPOS to have any contact with the ex. Although if a child was conceived as a result of the affair then contact with the ex may be inevitable and until the death of the ex, the child, or the victim.

175. Dan-

     #100 is quite right. This’ll go viral if you link to the money quote.

     Consider the opposite argument. I’ll gladly concede that HETEROsexuality is NOT a choice, rather than accept a challenge to eat pussy.

176. I’ve been reading this “never go out for drinks with exes if you’re in a monogamous relationship” and feeling very confused. Then it just hit me…my exes and I aren’t huge, out-of-control drinkers. If I’m going out for drinks with an ex, we’re having one pint, maybe two. No one’s inhibitions are inappropriately lowered. Everyone’s safely able to make their way home alone. No more risk than meeting them at a museum or at church.

     I only let myself get to the point of “feeling it” with people that are completely safe.

177. http://theoatmeal.com/comics/literally go to the bottom 🙂

178. @C&H: I’m sorry about your miscarriage! That’s painfully hard to plan for and then lose a child. You’re in my thoughts and prayers.

179. @165 sometimes people (and I stress people) want sex quite a lot when they’re grieving. My wife did after our miscarriage, probably earlier than I wanted. They also have very raw emotions and make mistakes. Just like people.

     By the way, thinking about sex is not a choice – for me – it may be for you – I may possibly not do so when I’m dead. It’s “inappropriate” of you to tell me it’s “inappropriate”.

     Of course I’m a “really dumb” man so feel free to diss me and report me to the thought police. You could do with working on the “really clear instructions” for the men who need it though, you sound inarticulate. After all it took 7 years, you say, for your views to be heard with just one dumb man, it’ll take an awful long time to change a few billion. Perhaps understanding a bit more, and cutting out polarising generalisations before you mouth off, would be useful in getting your point – if you have one – across.

180. Dan – here’s why the “choice” argument makes me nuts. What if being gay was a choice? Aren’t we *allowed* to make choices? In fact, I thought these choices were one of our most basic human rights.

     (And while I never chose to be gay, I did choose not to be a fucking closet case who got married and got dick on the side, and that’s a choice I’m pretty proud of.)

181. Can you please tell me the definition of “gay”? I mean, for a guy to suck another guy’s dick is a gay “act”, but does it make him “gay”? I have consciously made the choice to suck another guy’s dick, in the course of sexual self-discovery (just a couple times – honest), but I have determined that at the end of the day, I am not attracted to men. I’ve never met a man that I was drawn to sexually, but I am sexually drawn to all kinds of women. I wouldn’t even call that being bi. I’m straight, but I’ve performed “gay” acts.

     Anyhow, I guess that what I’m saying is that while your challenge to Cummins is witty and humorous, the reality is that what he is inferring is that “gay” men can choose to not “act” gay. He believes that it doesn’t matter what you think or feel, what matters is what you do, and people can control (choose) 100% of what they do. He’s believes that all people should be capable of controlling all of their instincts, and not do bad things (like interacting sexually with someone of their own gender).

     So here is the bottom line: He thinks that it is morally wrong for people of the same gender to interact sexually, and you don’t. He thinks that that people can control 100% of their actions, and you don’t. He is living in a idealistic fantasy world, and you aren’t.

182. On C&H it seams clear from the letter that C&H did these things together as a couple and that they both liked. There are a number of unknowns.

     For example who would arrange the meetings? C&H or her Husband? What was their protocol on this? Did they even have one? Does the Husband even know that his wife is not into this right now? Etc.

     It could be something as simple as the Husband wants things to return to normal and part of things being normal is doing things they both liked to do. MFF threesomes it is very clear was something they were both into.

     So I think Dan has this one right. Give the husband the benefit of the doubt.

     Only suggestion I would have is that the wife should mention in some way that she is no into MFF thing at the moment. Put it as the idea occured to her but after she thought it over she decided she wasn’t into it right then.

183. Publicly inviting another man to suck your d*ck is f*g-baiting, plain and simple. What’s more, performing a sexual act cannot determine sexual orientation. Once again, Dan Savage demonstrates why he will never be a legitimate Gay Rights movement spokesman or leader, no matter how many sycophants he has.

184. on the other hand, choice or not shouldn’t matter expression should be a human right, etc. We may be pre-loading the next civil right ‘discussion’ as a question of choice vs inherent human nature. And people who choose something distasteful to the majority??? well, furries or something will be denied their lifestyles for sake of offending the pure nature of our virgin squirrel populations.

185. brokephilosopher, dameedna, I’m not sure you correctly read what wendykh (165) was saying. She wasn’t saying that her partner isn’t allowed to think about sex; rather, she was saying that at certain times, like during a funeral, she considers it inappropriate for HER to be thinking about sex. Assuming she’s not psychic, the only way this becomes a problem is if her partner lets her know that he is thinking about or wanting it. And yeah, I agree, it would be totally inappropriate to let someone know you are horny while they’re trying to grieve at a funeral!

     Similarly, when a wife makes it clear that she’s grieving over a recent miscarriage and is not ready to resume threesomes, it’s time to let that issue drop for a while. Nobody’s forcing the husband not even to think about sex (as if that were possible), but it’s still inappropriate for him to go presumptively speaking for her to strangers with whom he’s preparing potential hookup arrangements. This is true even if sex is a comforting subject/activity for him during his own time of grief, because to put it bluntly, he wasn’t the one who needed a doctor’s okay for sex because of what his body just went through.

     Like wendykh, I feel the significance of what she experienced in the miscarriage is being a bit glibly overlooked here. Two years of trying to have a baby, followed by a tragic loss only three weeks ago? She needs some grieving time, and his actions interfered with that. From an objective point of view we realize that people grieve differently and sexual desires don’t just shut off because of grief, or may be consoling. But from her perspective, I think it would seem like he didn’t care that much, which is devastating. Can this be acknowledged, at least? I don’t feel like Dan gets that at all.

186. Hey Dan, you know that gay sex has nothing to do with what you do but rather the sex of the person you do it with.

     If you were a right-on guy instead of the wanna-be jerk you sometimes luvtabe, you’d ofter to suck Cumming’s dick on camara to enable him to make the gay choice.

     Instead you’ve tacitly accepted the phobe myth that a cocksucking male is queer while a cocksuckee male isn’t.

187. #189

     Comming again; that’s Cummins’ dick which would be cumming.

188. #190

     Cum is in the dictionary, but comming ain’t.

189. #186

     Uh, so what’s the ‘legitimate’ gay rights position when cumming? Standing or kneeling or both?

190. @22 , 69 et al
     It makes more sense that this is an adaptive trait to increase genetic population health. The greater genetic diversity the better, and that’s maintained by having different people attracted to different things. Some men like Beyonce, some like Michelle Williams, some like Rachel Maddow, and some like Taye Diggs. I’d like a 5-way with all of them, but that’s just me.

191. “She needs some grieving time, and his actions interfered with that.”

     No. Her decision to snoop in his email interfered with that.

192. “From an objective point of view we realize that people grieve differently and sexual desires don’t just shut off because of grief, or may be consoling. But from her perspective, I think it would seem like he didn’t care that much, which is devastating. Can this be acknowledged, at least? I don’t feel like Dan gets that at all.”

     To paraphrase the above paragraph: “It doesn’t matter how you actually feel about it. What matters is how I feel about how you feel about it.”

     Had she had the sense to stay the hell out of his email, both of them would have had the freedom to deal with the grief in their own personal fashion and she would never have had the need to write this letter.

193. @189: I think I saw it as “you’re a jackass, so I’m not into giving you pleasure. You can get me off without any complaints, though.”

194. “Stephen Colbert”, not Stephen Colbert. There are enough tin ears here to roof a stadium.

195. 193, beccoid– No. The trait doesn’t know what genetic health in a population is. The only thing the trait does is survive or not, pass its genes onto the next generation or not. It is either adaptive or not. Maybe it’s a little more complicated than that because the environment is always changing, and there’s social environment to be considered for social animals. Also, traits work or don’t work in conjunction with other traits. But just saying that genetic diversity is good for a population doesn’t pan out. Diversity consisting of non-adaptive traits is not good for a population.

196. #189
     Your interpretation is a fine example of conventional wisdom.

     In Dan’s example, pleasure occurs from ego gratification resulting from the challenge itself. Dan has knowingly chosen conventional wisdom as his premise because he gains by doing so.

     Dan makes his living from sex talk. Like Howard Stern the more outrageous he is, the more attention he gets, and the greater his potential return.

     Problem is in the conventional assumption that sucking someone off only provides pleasure to the recipient. But oral sex may in fact provide pleasure to both, neither, or only one of the participants, and the conventional assumption isn’t necessarily gay friendly.

197. #199

     Oh crap, what a waste all this is!

     Sorry to have added to it.

198. It . . . there isn’t really a Canadian politician who has the brass to assert that being gay is a choice while sporting the name “Cum Ins”, as in the classic gay gangsta saying “I gotta get some cum up ins,” right?

     *wikipedia*

     Oh, damn. There is.

     Well, I might actually pay for a video of him getting cummed in. Suck it good, John.

199. Suzy @160; the only kind of sex that I judge , or care about, is sex that’s NOT CONSENSUAL! Why would I care about incest that’s between adults?! Most incest involves people that are raped by cousins, brothers or (even my OWN brother who bugged me ALL thru my early teens to do inappropriate things, or show him my tits, or whatever-I never would). If you think that THAT b.s doesn’t wear on you, letmetellya.. All infidelity, however, is CONSENSUAL. & it’s fascinating to me how you jumped right on my post, saying that you,re not uptight/insecure/ tightly wound,whatever. Your point would be more believable if you weren’t SO defensive. I’m glad your husband & you agree on the same boundaries. & I feel safe in assuming that no one on this board is trying to lure you both out for drinks & have sex w/you.

200. Being Catholic is not a choice. It’s something people are born with.

201. @188 Suzy, regarding @165 and reading the message correctly, how else is one expected to interpret, and I quote:

     “SOMETIMES it’s nto even appropriate to think about fucking”
     “these are times to not think about his penis.”
     “I have found men are really dumb” etc.

     Dan did not glibly overlook the impact on either of them of the miscarriage. Nor have I seen anyone say she wrong in not wanting sex right now. People respond differently to grief. For some, sex is the last thing on their minds. Equally other people (including, one might allow, the H), might want reassurance and comfort at this time in sex – as for example my wife did. It’s not “inappropriate” to want it, nor would I judge anyone who did. I’d take them in my arms and love them, and cry my eyes out.

     What I find really tiresome in some of the comments is the judgemental and gender polarising nonsense. I have zero tolerance for the dismissive cant against guys that some seem to find acceptable, of which @165 is an example – as I would for the equivalent regarding women. Cut it out please, these are real suffering people.

     For the OP for C&H, I think he probably made a mistake, (which people do), and at this time, it’s really great to be there for each other and comfort each other. You can get great wedges of misunderstanding and disconnect from the grief.

202. Love your opinion on John Cummins. ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! Thanks!

203. “The trait doesn’t know what genetic health in a population is.”

     If you emphasize one unit of selection, that’s true. But natural selection works on the genetic, cellular, tissue, organism, species, and group levels all at the same time. The “genetic health” of a population can inform the prevalence or dearth of a trait in a given population.

204. I’m surprised that some of the people are still scratching their heads about how homosexuality happened to evolve. I can’t be the only one on this board who has read “Sex At Dawn” !

205. So Elsalover, if you don’t care about incest, then maybe you too are one of those “tight-ass” (your words, not mine) people who feel that “infidelity is worse than incest.” However, the way you said it at first made it seem like you didn’t agree with the tight-ass Americans. Or perhaps you don’t care about either one, which would be a third option. I don’t mind if you think I’m a tight-ass, as I’m guessing I’d consider that complimentary.

206. Dameedna, here’s why I interpret it differently: there’s no way for her to know that he’s thinking about sex unless he says or does something to reveal his otherwise private thoughts. And yeah, at her grandpa’s funeral is not the time to do this. Likewise, when the “she” is grieving a miscarriage and has already stated she doesn’t want threesomes, it’s not the time to be delving into plans.

     It would be nice if his desires for sex, or perhaps comfort through sex, could be met at this time. Nothing wrong with that, and sure, he’s grieving too. However, the reality is that his body did not endure the miscarriage, and he overstepped some bounds with his actions, so I think he needs to apologize and perhaps also explain to his wife that he is indeed grieving, since to me that’s the worse concern.

207. Avast2006, she didn’t snoop in his email. He left it there in view. The fact that you’re blaming HER for the whole problem on this ground pretty much says it all.

     But anyway, you’re right, it doesn’t matter how he actually feels about it, because his actions are saying something else! Specifically: I have chosen to disregard your stated lack of interest in our threesome activities, and I have chosen to speak for you falsely to others, as I ask them when we can meet. More generally, what this says to his wife is, I don’t care that much about your feelings, even when you’re miserable! So that’s why I think he needs to do something to show her that he does indeed care about her feelings, and knows he made an error, and that he’s feeling grief just like she is.

208. 9/11 WAS a piece of theater staged and directed by several US officials high in the GW Bush administration. Check out the work of David Ray Griffin at http://davidraygriffin.com/ for the most intellectually careful and thorough introduction to the research.

     Three of the most obviously compelling pieces of evidence, to me:
     – Larry Silverstein, lessee of the WTC, admitted on camera that he made a choice to “pull” WTC 7. (i.e., controlled demolition: it was not felled by fire) Which meant that the charges had been set days in advance.
     – Norman Mineta, Secy. of Transportation, stated on camera at the 9/11 Commission hearings that when the plane that hit the Pentagon was approaching it, Dick Cheney was repeatedly asked by a young man, “Do the orders still stand?” Cheney repeatedly said yes. These orders could only have meant orders not to intercept/shoot down the plane.
     – the fact that an intact passport belonging to a ‘hijacker’ was found on the ground outside WTC. Like it flew out of his pocket through the fire?

     Don’t attack your compatriots, Dan. You don’t know everything. If you’re not thoroughly sure that 9/11 was entirely NOT an inside job, just keep silent.

209. My usual response to the “choicers” is along the lines of “Being a Christian is a choice, does that mean we shouldn’t let them get married?”

210. Today, as my son cried in my arms, he said, “What nobody realizes is that it’s torture. Every day of my life I wish I wasn’t gay.” MMT

211. The whole “choice” thing is a stupid fucking argument.

     Being gay may be a choice, for all I know. Being straight may be a choice. Being a republican is certainly a choice. So is being a christian.

     And last I knew, it was immoral and illegal to discriminate against folks for being christians. Or republicans.

     It’s got fuckall to do with choice.

     What they mean is, it’s a choice we disagree with.

     Pathetic

     Doc

212. “Avast2006, she didn’t snoop in his email. He left it there in view.”

     Unless he left all the messages carefully tiled on his screen so that she could read the contents without touching the mouse or keyboard, then she actively dug through his email account. End of story.

     “The fact that you’re blaming HER for the whole problem on this ground pretty much says it all.”

     Does that statement contain any sort of actual argumentation?

     “But anyway, you’re right, it doesn’t matter how he actually feels about it, because his actions are saying something else!”

     You do realize you just made the exact same failed argument, merely substituting “actions” for “feelings”?

     “Specifically: I have chosen to disregard your stated lack of interest in our threesome activities,”

     Sure, by actively involving you in ongoing planning, and continuing to bother you about when we can start up again. Oh, wait, I didn’t do any of that. Leaving you entirely alone regarding threesomes is insufficient regard for your stated lack of interest. Apparently “your stated lack of interest” is supposed to mean “my resulting lack of interest.” As everyone knows, your interests ARE my interests.

     “and I have chosen to speak for you falsely to others, as I ask them when we can meet.”

     Because she will never be in the mood again, or if she does eventually get back in the mood, obviously she won’t like any of the people he’s been lining up.

     “More generally, what this says to his wife is, I don’t care that much about your feelings, even when you’re miserable!”

     No, that is how you choose to interpret it. There is actually a difference. And there is any amount of relationship literature that regards statements of that sort — “If you really cared about my feelings, you would [Activity X]” — as emotional violence.

     “So that’s why I think he needs to do something to show her that he does indeed care about her feelings, and knows he made an error, and that he’s feeling grief just like she is.

     In other words, feel grief the same way I do, react as I would react, do as I would do, have your wants and desires wax and wane in concert with mine, effectively be me, or else you don’t care about me. Do you have any clue how narcissistic you come across?

213. Even if being gay were a choice, how is it impacting anyone else? Who cares what consenting adults choose to do together? I don’t care if straight couples choose to have vanilla sex or off the wall, crazy kinky sex because it doesn’t affect me in the least. Why do all these stodgey old men care so much?

214. @51 Bravo, Crenoline! That is the most succinct explanation of natural selection I’ve ever seen. Don’t bother looking for that book which does it better; WRITE it instead. Please.

     @DanSavage re: Choicers. Bravo! F***ing BRILLIANT! My regard for you has its ups and downs; it’s never been higher than after reading that (except maybe the time you infiltrated the GOP convention).

215. @39 My third “Bravo!” of the evening.

     “Politicians who (will likely always) believe it IS a choice should have to defend why people shouldn’t be allowed to make it.”

     Indeed! My new mantra.

216. Most people I know it would be hard to convince that being gay *is* a choice. They know too many people who found coming out of the closet meant they lost their job, their friends, family members, etc. It’s easier being a professional badger-thrower than being gay.

217. Thanks to #217 I focused on #51 again.

     A gold nugget buried in a pile of ….; good enough to get me to break my word in #200!

218. #85 – You love your husband, he loves you, but he cannot or will not “perform.” Is he willing to try to satisfy your sexual needs in other ways than PIV intercourse?

219. Stephen Colbert pretends to be a rightwinger, but he is most definitely NOT one.

     He takes the rightwing positions and exaggerates them to ridiculousness, but I guess you might be fooled into thinking otherwise if you didn’t see all of Colbert’s routine.

220. Dan a bit pissed off at being grouped in with ignorant people because I have looked into very compelling evidence on the events of 9/11 and realize the case for an inside job is undeniable. In this case it is you that isn’t looking at evidence and am being very hypocritical. You don’t have to take my word for it Dan, over 1,500 architect and engineers have LOOKED at the evidence and are willing to put their professional credentials on the line. http://www.ae911truth.org check out the blueprint for truth then talk about who is ill informed.

221. @209 Suzy, I’m not clear why you are continuing to conflate @165’s thought-police grandfather funeral episode with the C&H OP. I see little room for interpretation of “he’s already out thinking about fucking other chicks” which is obviously so “inappropriate” and “I have found men are really dumb”.

     For what it’s worth, I’ve certainly thought about sex at funerals although haven’t raised it at the time – amazing really that a male could have a smidgeon of emotional intelligence, but there you have it. Personally, I find the morbidity excessive sometimes, and what better antidote – at least in thought – with something life-giving, life-affirming and joyful. There’s also the Carpe Diem aspect, and who knows, it would be what grandpa would have wanted himself. As I descend downwards at the end of my days, I’d be delighted if the mourners were planning a jolly good session after the sandwiches and tea.

     What I fail to see from your comments is how on earth someone is supposed to communicate what they are thinking or feeling in the circumstances (since you so generously allow them to think), or double-guess what’s “appropriate”. For one thing, it’s very hard to prevent yourself – even if you try your best – from leaking those feelings, and in a way it’s lying if you don’t talk about them. How on earth are you supposed to assess the other person’s feelings if you don’t ask eventually? I understand that there would be a common understanding to hold off round a funeral, Miss Manners would not approve, but this is not anything to do with the experience of C&H – it’s irrelevant. The issue with C&H’s H is that he wasn’t sharing (perhaps out of consideration), and that what he apparently wanted was way different to her – that doesn’t make him wrong for his feelings.

     @215 put it quite well: “In other words, feel grief the same way I do, react as I would react, do as I would do, have your wants and desires wax and wane in concert with mine, effectively be me, or else you don’t care about me”

     I’m quite happy to agree that C&H’s H made a mistake and can do with understanding that – more associated with the underhand and misleading nature of it being the problem. I think there would have been a big shock in seeing the chasm between her feelings and – we don’t really know – his feelings.

     But far more importantly, both of them should be sharing & accepting their feelings – raw, inchoate messy – and provide whatever support and comfort to each other they can. Not retreat into judgemental isolation.

     For the OP of C&H, we found the book “Silent Grief” helpful.

222. GHTR, did your attraction to your boyfriend fade when you moved in together? Then there’s a very good chance it’s the commitment and not your boyfriend that’s the issue. And gotta love the way you triangulated your co-worker into the drama!

     You don’t “love” your boyfriend because you’re too selfish and immature to actually love another person. Adults don’t deal with relationship issues by cheating. They deal with the issue. I agree you should break up with your boyfriend because if he’s ready to make a commitment, then he deserves another adult who is willing to honor that. Then you need to have a good, long think about what you want and who you are. People like you cause a lot of heartbreak in this world – your idea of “love” is based entirely on yourselves and what you want and the other people involved have no more meaning to you than toys to a toddler.

223. @ 94, 122, 223 Yes, thank you. It’s very possible to be a longtime daily Savage Love reader and also have questions about 9/11. I know five. Dan seems to think a whole lot of people are something they’re not.

224. I hate to tell you this, Dan, but if the WTC towers and Building 7 really collapsed due to fire alone, the laws of physics were broken. Do I want to believe this? No. But I have to believe it, because scientific evidence doesn’t lie. If you had done any research before making your claim, you would realize that there is physical evidence for controlled demolition and none for natural collapse.

225. Shove it up your ass, @227

226. @227 no, no, come back and turn off the damn bold this time. Please!

227. Is it possible for someone else to turn it off in a subsequent message by adding one last close-bold tag? Testing, testing…

228. All of these “choice” vs. “innate” arguments are short sighted. The fact is that for some people it may be a choice. Does that make them a lesser class of homosexuals/bisexuals/etc? Are they somehow “less homo” for their choices? Sexual preference for some people is just that – and if you claim it’s not, then you get a different, scarier kind of nut – the kind who thinks that they can find the genes/trigger and eliminate it.

     Don’t encourage people to try to find your “gayness” by earlobe size or haplotype. Defend the rights of all LGBTe, regardless of their affiliation or how they came to join you there.

229. All of these “choice” vs. “innate” arguments are short sighted. The fact is that for some people it may be a choice. Does that make them a lesser class of homosexuals/bisexuals/etc? Are they somehow “less homo” for their choices? Sexual preference for some people is just that – and if you claim it’s not, then you get a different, scarier kind of nut – the kind who thinks that they can find the genes/trigger and eliminate it.

     Don’t encourage people to try to find your “gayness” by earlobe size or haplotype. Defend the rights of all LGBTe, regardless of their affiliation or how they came to join you there.

230. @232 trying to unbold <b> here. Did it work ?

231. It ain’t easy. Three are needed, but < and > get rewritten as < and > automatically. I wonder how 227 got its own to work ?

232. Yess ! 🙂

     @17 and 30 : I’m female and if I could choose, I would choose gay.

     First reason : because most males I’ve met have been domineering assholes. Yes, most female could be assholes too. But they wouldn’t all have the physical ability to kill me or rape me barehanded if I disagreed with them.

     Second reason : I’d rather I were not attracted to dick-having humans. It would make sex less torturing. I wouldn’t have flashbacks of my father’s dick during sex – more than 20 years after. May he rot alive and die in pain.

233. I don’t really see what the big deal is with the gay as “choice” vs. gay as biology argument. Even if being gay was a choice, so what? What’s so wrong with choosing to have a relationship with someone of the same sex?

234. I’m married and monogamous and happy about it, and I spend platonic time with former lovers. My husband knows where I am and what I’m doing, and he’s welcome to come along, as are the other spouses, many of whom have become my bonus friends. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t, mostly according to what else they have on their calendars. I’ve known my husband for a ridiculously long time, including many years of friendship only, and so some of these men are his friends, too. My husband can also recall how I acted toward him when we were “just friends,” and recall that I was never inappropriate. (He wasn’t either.) The question isn’t whether he can trust them. It’s whether he can trust me. We both think he can.

     Oh, and men are the straightforward gender, the ones who won’t make you guess what’s on their minds? Not in my experience! In my world, at least, y’all are at least as vague and contradictory as women, and often require even more guesswork.

235. @30 guilty as charged, thanks for the perspective

236. @145 Yes, that’s it! “Poor Thing” lacks the gender connotation of “poor sod” and sounds kinder, too. I’m changing my vote to DtPTA.

237. “Stephen Colbert” pronounced Cohl-bare (noun): A sarcastic satirical character on a COMEDY Central television show who regularly mocks right wing politics by pretending to be one of them. Key instances include running for the Republican seat in his home state of South Carolina and representing FEAR at the “Rally for Fear and/or Sanity” with Jon Stewart.

     Stephen Colbert(no quotes) pronounced Cohl-burt (noun): The actor/comedian who plays the satirical character “Stephen Colbert” (pronounced Cohl-bare) on Comedy Central and sometimes takes this character into appearances on other shows and events.

     Ah, satire may be well and alive, but the ability for the Interwebbians to grasp it is in late stage necrotic decay, rapidly approaching death.

238. You must hear this a lot, but I think you are a pig. Your advice to the man with the small penis was terrible. A pubic trim helps size,lotions, and antihistamines, and of course the Enzyte can help to add size to an unhappy man.

239. Right here. I’m sick of patriarchal bullshit but have never wished to be a lesbian. All the women I know, straight, lesbian and bi, are as fucked up by patriarchal b.s. as any of the men I’ve dated. They’re not all that much easier to get along with, either. Just sayin’.

240. Re: Girl Hot Tin Roof — I’ve been in similar situations to hers, but not because I didn’t love the men with whom I was in the situations. It was because I was scared silly of being in a committed, close relationship. I should note here that I am an incest survivor, which no doubt is at the root of the problem, but it’s possible GHTR is, as well.

     Just a possibility that she may NOT be an MF.

241. Re: Girl Hot Tin Roof – My first reaction was that GHTR was scared and wanted to sabotage the relationship with her boyfriend that she was getting more serious with because of a fear of intimacy. On second thought, when I read that she had absolutely no regret about it, it made me agree with Dan Savage that she just doesn’t have any feelings for the guy and she needs to get out of the relationship.

242. I think the “choicer challenge” could backfire tremendously. If John Cummins thinks it’s a choice, there’s a good chance he’s a closet bisexual. If that were the case, he could call Dan’s bluff.

     Obviously he wouldn’t because he’s a prude, but still.

243. (Pulls up John Cummins on Google Image Search)

     Damn, Dan. You’re taking one for the team on this one, huh?

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