I am a bi woman happily married to a straight man, and we both “participate” in hot sexy times with other women during threesomes. It’s hard to find hot 30ish bi girls where we live, but the encounters we’ve had were for the most part excellent. Everything was great until three weeks ago, when we had a miscarriage. We’d been trying for almost two years, so the recovery is not just physical but emotional for both of us.
We were only recently given the go-ahead to have sex again. We have a well-rounded sex life—kink, BDSM, toys—and both of us have said that, just for right now, we’re not looking for anything more than just us.
I went to the computer this morning to find that my husband had left his e-mail open. His inbox was filled with replies to recent queries sent to girls looking for couples to hook up with. His e-mails to these girls ask what gets them hot and when/where we can all hook up, and they state that his wife is really excited about f-ing her. I’m probably overreacting due to all the extra hormones, but he’s lying to them, and I’m not sure what he’s doing to me.
Confused & Hormonal
I’m so sorry for your loss, C&H. A miscarriage when you’re trying to conceive is an utterly heartbreaking experience. My heart goes out to you—both of you.
Two things in your letter leaped out at me: “It’s hard to find hot 30ish bi girls where we live” and “Both of us have said that, just for right now, we’re not looking for anything more than just us.” And one thing that isn’t in your letter leaped out at me: You found no evidence that your husband was planning to meet up with any of these girls alone. He isn’t cheating and wasn’t planning to. He was making very tentative, vague plans for the three of you to get together at some point in the future. And that isn’t gonna happen—that can’t happen—until you’re ready, right?
So here’s what your husband is guilty of: He is looking forward—too soon and too eagerly—to the time when you’re ready to start having threesomes again. And it looks like he was trying to dig up one of those “hard to find” hot 30ish bi girls so that when you were ready for “more than just us,” a hot 30ish bi girl would be all lined up.
Was that a shitty thing for him to do? Perhaps. But again, C&H, all you discovered was evidence that your husband was making plans for sexy times at some indefinite point in the future. And are you sure he understands that just looking is out-of-bounds? Perhaps when you said, “We’re not looking for anyone else right now,” he heard, “We’re not sleeping with anyone else right now.”
As upsetting as it was to find those e-mails, I think your husband deserves some credit for being… considerate. Your miscarriage was no doubt upsetting for him, too, C&H, but it didn’t impact his sexual interests or needs the way it impacted yours. But he didn’t push the issue. He didn’t put any pressure on you—he didn’t even bring the subject up. All he did was put some feelers out and do a little online flirting and planning. Half the fun is to plan the plan, as Mrs. Lovett once said, so he probably enjoyed those e-mail exchanges. But he didn’t tell you about them because there was no way to talk about them without making you feel pressured.
So let’s pretend that you never ran across those e-mails, C&H. Let’s imagine that six months or a year from now, you’re starting to feel the urge to have some sexy times with a hot 30ish bi girl. And you go to your husband, who has been patient and understanding, and you say, “I think I’m ready to have a threesome again.” And your loving, kinky, considerate husband replies, “Hey, that’s great. I’ve been chatting with a few hot 30ish bi girls online I thought you might like. You wanna see their pictures?”
You probably wouldn’t have said, “YOU ASSHOLE! You weren’t even supposed to be LOOKING until I said so!” I’m thinking it’s much more likely that you would’ve said something like “My husband is the best.”
I’m about to move in with my boyfriend of four years. He’s still very attracted to me, but my attraction to him has faded. I think the anxiety of finally moving in together caused something to snap. I went out for innocent drinks with a colleague and ended up back at his place. I love my boyfriend, but I’m still giddy from the hot sex with my colleague. I’m confused! Especially because I don’t feel guilty—I feel great! I have no plans to tell the BF, a man I love very much and don’t want to hurt. What do I do now?
Girl Hot Tin Roof
Unless you’re planning to put your boyfriend painlessly to sleep in the very near future, GHTR, there’s no way to avoid hurting him. You’re not really in love with him, you’re not attracted to him, and the longer you drag this relationship out, GHTR, the greater the hurt will be once you finally screw up the courage to dump him, or more likely, once he discovers the truth on his own. I would tell you to DTMFA, but you’re the MF in this scenario, not him. End it.
THE CHOICER CHALLENGE: Last week, the leader of British Columbia’s Conservative Party, John Cummins, told a radio interviewer that gay people shouldn’t be covered by the BC Human Rights Act because being gay is “a conscious choice.”
Like truthers (9/11 was an inside job!), birthers (Barack Obama was born in Kenya!), and deathers (Osama bin Laden is alive and well and living in West Hollywood!), choicers would appear to be just another group of deranged conspiracy theorists who can’t be dissuaded by science or evidence or facts. And John Cummins isn’t the only choicer out there. We have lots of choicers right here in the United States (Tony Perkins, Rick Santorum, “Stephen Colbert,” et al.).
But what if the choicers are right? What if being gay is something people consciously choose? Gee, if only there were a way for choicers to prove that they’re right and everyone else is wrong… actually, there is a way for choicers to prove that they’re right!
I hereby publicly invite—I publicly challenge—John Cummins to prove that being gay is a choice by choosing it himself.
Suck my dick, John.
I’m completely serious about this, John. You’re not my type—you’re about as far from my type as a human being without a vagina gets—but I have just as much interest as you do in seeing this gay-is-a-choice argument resolved once and for all. You name the time and the place, John, and I’ll show up with my dick and a camera crew. Then you can show the world how it’s done. You can demonstrate how this “conscious choice” is made. You can flip the switch, John, make the choice, then sink to your bony old knees and suck my dick. And after you’ve swallowed my load, John, we’ll upload the video to the internet and you’ll be a hero to other choicers everywhere.
It’s time to put your mouth where your mouth is, John. If being gay is a choice, choose it. Show us how it’s done.
Suck my dick.
Find the Savage Lovecast (my weekly podcast) every Tuesday at thestranger.com/savage.
This article has been updated since its original publication.
@188 Suzy, regarding @165 and reading the message correctly, how else is one expected to interpret, and I quote:
“SOMETIMES it’s nto even appropriate to think about fucking”
“these are times to not think about his penis.”
“I have found men are really dumb” etc.
Dan did not glibly overlook the impact on either of them of the miscarriage. Nor have I seen anyone say she wrong in not wanting sex right now. People respond differently to grief. For some, sex is the last thing on their minds. Equally other people (including, one might allow, the H), might want reassurance and comfort at this time in sex – as for example my wife did. It’s not “inappropriate” to want it, nor would I judge anyone who did. I’d take them in my arms and love them, and cry my eyes out.
What I find really tiresome in some of the comments is the judgemental and gender polarising nonsense. I have zero tolerance for the dismissive cant against guys that some seem to find acceptable, of which @165 is an example – as I would for the equivalent regarding women. Cut it out please, these are real suffering people.
For the OP for C&H, I think he probably made a mistake, (which people do), and at this time, it’s really great to be there for each other and comfort each other. You can get great wedges of misunderstanding and disconnect from the grief.
Love your opinion on John Cummins. ABSOLUTELY BRILLIANT! Thanks!
“The trait doesn’t know what genetic health in a population is.”
If you emphasize one unit of selection, that’s true. But natural selection works on the genetic, cellular, tissue, organism, species, and group levels all at the same time. The “genetic health” of a population can inform the prevalence or dearth of a trait in a given population.
I’m surprised that some of the people are still scratching their heads about how homosexuality happened to evolve. I can’t be the only one on this board who has read “Sex At Dawn” !
So Elsalover, if you don’t care about incest, then maybe you too are one of those “tight-ass” (your words, not mine) people who feel that “infidelity is worse than incest.” However, the way you said it at first made it seem like you didn’t agree with the tight-ass Americans. Or perhaps you don’t care about either one, which would be a third option. I don’t mind if you think I’m a tight-ass, as I’m guessing I’d consider that complimentary.
Dameedna, here’s why I interpret it differently: there’s no way for her to know that he’s thinking about sex unless he says or does something to reveal his otherwise private thoughts. And yeah, at her grandpa’s funeral is not the time to do this. Likewise, when the “she” is grieving a miscarriage and has already stated she doesn’t want threesomes, it’s not the time to be delving into plans.
It would be nice if his desires for sex, or perhaps comfort through sex, could be met at this time. Nothing wrong with that, and sure, he’s grieving too. However, the reality is that his body did not endure the miscarriage, and he overstepped some bounds with his actions, so I think he needs to apologize and perhaps also explain to his wife that he is indeed grieving, since to me that’s the worse concern.
Avast2006, she didn’t snoop in his email. He left it there in view. The fact that you’re blaming HER for the whole problem on this ground pretty much says it all.
But anyway, you’re right, it doesn’t matter how he actually feels about it, because his actions are saying something else! Specifically: I have chosen to disregard your stated lack of interest in our threesome activities, and I have chosen to speak for you falsely to others, as I ask them when we can meet. More generally, what this says to his wife is, I don’t care that much about your feelings, even when you’re miserable! So that’s why I think he needs to do something to show her that he does indeed care about her feelings, and knows he made an error, and that he’s feeling grief just like she is.
9/11 WAS a piece of theater staged and directed by several US officials high in the GW Bush administration. Check out the work of David Ray Griffin at http://davidraygriffin.com/ for the most intellectually careful and thorough introduction to the research.
Three of the most obviously compelling pieces of evidence, to me:
– Larry Silverstein, lessee of the WTC, admitted on camera that he made a choice to “pull” WTC 7. (i.e., controlled demolition: it was not felled by fire) Which meant that the charges had been set days in advance.
– Norman Mineta, Secy. of Transportation, stated on camera at the 9/11 Commission hearings that when the plane that hit the Pentagon was approaching it, Dick Cheney was repeatedly asked by a young man, “Do the orders still stand?” Cheney repeatedly said yes. These orders could only have meant orders not to intercept/shoot down the plane.
– the fact that an intact passport belonging to a ‘hijacker’ was found on the ground outside WTC. Like it flew out of his pocket through the fire?
Don’t attack your compatriots, Dan. You don’t know everything. If you’re not thoroughly sure that 9/11 was entirely NOT an inside job, just keep silent.
My usual response to the “choicers” is along the lines of “Being a Christian is a choice, does that mean we shouldn’t let them get married?”
Today, as my son cried in my arms, he said, “What nobody realizes is that it’s torture. Every day of my life I wish I wasn’t gay.” MMT
The whole “choice” thing is a stupid fucking argument.
Being gay may be a choice, for all I know. Being straight may be a choice. Being a republican is certainly a choice. So is being a christian.
And last I knew, it was immoral and illegal to discriminate against folks for being christians. Or republicans.
It’s got fuckall to do with choice.
What they mean is, it’s a choice we disagree with.
Pathetic
Doc
“Avast2006, she didn’t snoop in his email. He left it there in view.”
Unless he left all the messages carefully tiled on his screen so that she could read the contents without touching the mouse or keyboard, then she actively dug through his email account. End of story.
“The fact that you’re blaming HER for the whole problem on this ground pretty much says it all.”
Does that statement contain any sort of actual argumentation?
“But anyway, you’re right, it doesn’t matter how he actually feels about it, because his actions are saying something else!”
You do realize you just made the exact same failed argument, merely substituting “actions” for “feelings”?
“Specifically: I have chosen to disregard your stated lack of interest in our threesome activities,”
Sure, by actively involving you in ongoing planning, and continuing to bother you about when we can start up again. Oh, wait, I didn’t do any of that. Leaving you entirely alone regarding threesomes is insufficient regard for your stated lack of interest. Apparently “your stated lack of interest” is supposed to mean “my resulting lack of interest.” As everyone knows, your interests ARE my interests.
“and I have chosen to speak for you falsely to others, as I ask them when we can meet.”
Because she will never be in the mood again, or if she does eventually get back in the mood, obviously she won’t like any of the people he’s been lining up.
“More generally, what this says to his wife is, I don’t care that much about your feelings, even when you’re miserable!”
No, that is how you choose to interpret it. There is actually a difference. And there is any amount of relationship literature that regards statements of that sort — “If you really cared about my feelings, you would [Activity X]” — as emotional violence.
“So that’s why I think he needs to do something to show her that he does indeed care about her feelings, and knows he made an error, and that he’s feeling grief just like she is.
In other words, feel grief the same way I do, react as I would react, do as I would do, have your wants and desires wax and wane in concert with mine, effectively be me, or else you don’t care about me. Do you have any clue how narcissistic you come across?
Even if being gay were a choice, how is it impacting anyone else? Who cares what consenting adults choose to do together? I don’t care if straight couples choose to have vanilla sex or off the wall, crazy kinky sex because it doesn’t affect me in the least. Why do all these stodgey old men care so much?
@51 Bravo, Crenoline! That is the most succinct explanation of natural selection I’ve ever seen. Don’t bother looking for that book which does it better; WRITE it instead. Please.
@DanSavage re: Choicers. Bravo! F***ing BRILLIANT! My regard for you has its ups and downs; it’s never been higher than after reading that (except maybe the time you infiltrated the GOP convention).
@39 My third “Bravo!” of the evening.
“Politicians who (will likely always) believe it IS a choice should have to defend why people shouldn’t be allowed to make it.”
Indeed! My new mantra.
Most people I know it would be hard to convince that being gay *is* a choice. They know too many people who found coming out of the closet meant they lost their job, their friends, family members, etc. It’s easier being a professional badger-thrower than being gay.
Thanks to #217 I focused on #51 again.
A gold nugget buried in a pile of ….; good enough to get me to break my word in #200!
#85 – You love your husband, he loves you, but he cannot or will not “perform.” Is he willing to try to satisfy your sexual needs in other ways than PIV intercourse?
Stephen Colbert pretends to be a rightwinger, but he is most definitely NOT one.
He takes the rightwing positions and exaggerates them to ridiculousness, but I guess you might be fooled into thinking otherwise if you didn’t see all of Colbert’s routine.
Dan a bit pissed off at being grouped in with ignorant people because I have looked into very compelling evidence on the events of 9/11 and realize the case for an inside job is undeniable. In this case it is you that isn’t looking at evidence and am being very hypocritical. You don’t have to take my word for it Dan, over 1,500 architect and engineers have LOOKED at the evidence and are willing to put their professional credentials on the line. http://www.ae911truth.org check out the blueprint for truth then talk about who is ill informed.
@209 Suzy, I’m not clear why you are continuing to conflate @165’s thought-police grandfather funeral episode with the C&H OP. I see little room for interpretation of “he’s already out thinking about fucking other chicks” which is obviously so “inappropriate” and “I have found men are really dumb”.
For what it’s worth, I’ve certainly thought about sex at funerals although haven’t raised it at the time – amazing really that a male could have a smidgeon of emotional intelligence, but there you have it. Personally, I find the morbidity excessive sometimes, and what better antidote – at least in thought – with something life-giving, life-affirming and joyful. There’s also the Carpe Diem aspect, and who knows, it would be what grandpa would have wanted himself. As I descend downwards at the end of my days, I’d be delighted if the mourners were planning a jolly good session after the sandwiches and tea.
What I fail to see from your comments is how on earth someone is supposed to communicate what they are thinking or feeling in the circumstances (since you so generously allow them to think), or double-guess what’s “appropriate”. For one thing, it’s very hard to prevent yourself – even if you try your best – from leaking those feelings, and in a way it’s lying if you don’t talk about them. How on earth are you supposed to assess the other person’s feelings if you don’t ask eventually? I understand that there would be a common understanding to hold off round a funeral, Miss Manners would not approve, but this is not anything to do with the experience of C&H – it’s irrelevant. The issue with C&H’s H is that he wasn’t sharing (perhaps out of consideration), and that what he apparently wanted was way different to her – that doesn’t make him wrong for his feelings.
@215 put it quite well: “In other words, feel grief the same way I do, react as I would react, do as I would do, have your wants and desires wax and wane in concert with mine, effectively be me, or else you don’t care about me”
I’m quite happy to agree that C&H’s H made a mistake and can do with understanding that – more associated with the underhand and misleading nature of it being the problem. I think there would have been a big shock in seeing the chasm between her feelings and – we don’t really know – his feelings.
But far more importantly, both of them should be sharing & accepting their feelings – raw, inchoate messy – and provide whatever support and comfort to each other they can. Not retreat into judgemental isolation.
For the OP of C&H, we found the book “Silent Grief” helpful.
GHTR, did your attraction to your boyfriend fade when you moved in together? Then there’s a very good chance it’s the commitment and not your boyfriend that’s the issue. And gotta love the way you triangulated your co-worker into the drama!
You don’t “love” your boyfriend because you’re too selfish and immature to actually love another person. Adults don’t deal with relationship issues by cheating. They deal with the issue. I agree you should break up with your boyfriend because if he’s ready to make a commitment, then he deserves another adult who is willing to honor that. Then you need to have a good, long think about what you want and who you are. People like you cause a lot of heartbreak in this world – your idea of “love” is based entirely on yourselves and what you want and the other people involved have no more meaning to you than toys to a toddler.
@ 94, 122, 223 Yes, thank you. It’s very possible to be a longtime daily Savage Love reader and also have questions about 9/11. I know five. Dan seems to think a whole lot of people are something they’re not.
I hate to tell you this, Dan, but if the WTC towers and Building 7 really collapsed due to fire alone, the laws of physics were broken. Do I want to believe this? No. But I have to believe it, because scientific evidence doesn’t lie. If you had done any research before making your claim, you would realize that there is physical evidence for controlled demolition and none for natural collapse.
Shove it up your ass, @227
@227 no, no, come back and turn off the damn bold this time. Please!
Is it possible for someone else to turn it off in a subsequent message by adding one last close-bold tag? Testing, testing…
All of these “choice” vs. “innate” arguments are short sighted. The fact is that for some people it may be a choice. Does that make them a lesser class of homosexuals/bisexuals/etc? Are they somehow “less homo” for their choices? Sexual preference for some people is just that – and if you claim it’s not, then you get a different, scarier kind of nut – the kind who thinks that they can find the genes/trigger and eliminate it.
Don’t encourage people to try to find your “gayness” by earlobe size or haplotype. Defend the rights of all LGBTe, regardless of their affiliation or how they came to join you there.
All of these “choice” vs. “innate” arguments are short sighted. The fact is that for some people it may be a choice. Does that make them a lesser class of homosexuals/bisexuals/etc? Are they somehow “less homo” for their choices? Sexual preference for some people is just that – and if you claim it’s not, then you get a different, scarier kind of nut – the kind who thinks that they can find the genes/trigger and eliminate it.
Don’t encourage people to try to find your “gayness” by earlobe size or haplotype. Defend the rights of all LGBTe, regardless of their affiliation or how they came to join you there.
@232 trying to unbold <b> here. Did it work ?
It ain’t easy. Three are needed, but < and > get rewritten as < and > automatically. I wonder how 227 got its own to work ?
Yess ! 🙂
@17 and 30 : I’m female and if I could choose, I would choose gay.
First reason : because most males I’ve met have been domineering assholes. Yes, most female could be assholes too. But they wouldn’t all have the physical ability to kill me or rape me barehanded if I disagreed with them.
Second reason : I’d rather I were not attracted to dick-having humans. It would make sex less torturing. I wouldn’t have flashbacks of my father’s dick during sex – more than 20 years after. May he rot alive and die in pain.
I don’t really see what the big deal is with the gay as “choice” vs. gay as biology argument. Even if being gay was a choice, so what? What’s so wrong with choosing to have a relationship with someone of the same sex?
I’m married and monogamous and happy about it, and I spend platonic time with former lovers. My husband knows where I am and what I’m doing, and he’s welcome to come along, as are the other spouses, many of whom have become my bonus friends. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don’t, mostly according to what else they have on their calendars. I’ve known my husband for a ridiculously long time, including many years of friendship only, and so some of these men are his friends, too. My husband can also recall how I acted toward him when we were “just friends,” and recall that I was never inappropriate. (He wasn’t either.) The question isn’t whether he can trust them. It’s whether he can trust me. We both think he can.
Oh, and men are the straightforward gender, the ones who won’t make you guess what’s on their minds? Not in my experience! In my world, at least, y’all are at least as vague and contradictory as women, and often require even more guesswork.
@30 guilty as charged, thanks for the perspective
@145 Yes, that’s it! “Poor Thing” lacks the gender connotation of “poor sod” and sounds kinder, too. I’m changing my vote to DtPTA.
“Stephen Colbert” pronounced Cohl-bare (noun): A sarcastic satirical character on a COMEDY Central television show who regularly mocks right wing politics by pretending to be one of them. Key instances include running for the Republican seat in his home state of South Carolina and representing FEAR at the “Rally for Fear and/or Sanity” with Jon Stewart.
Stephen Colbert(no quotes) pronounced Cohl-burt (noun): The actor/comedian who plays the satirical character “Stephen Colbert” (pronounced Cohl-bare) on Comedy Central and sometimes takes this character into appearances on other shows and events.
Ah, satire may be well and alive, but the ability for the Interwebbians to grasp it is in late stage necrotic decay, rapidly approaching death.
You must hear this a lot, but I think you are a pig. Your advice to the man with the small penis was terrible. A pubic trim helps size,lotions, and antihistamines, and of course the Enzyte can help to add size to an unhappy man.
Right here. I’m sick of patriarchal bullshit but have never wished to be a lesbian. All the women I know, straight, lesbian and bi, are as fucked up by patriarchal b.s. as any of the men I’ve dated. They’re not all that much easier to get along with, either. Just sayin’.
Re: Girl Hot Tin Roof — I’ve been in similar situations to hers, but not because I didn’t love the men with whom I was in the situations. It was because I was scared silly of being in a committed, close relationship. I should note here that I am an incest survivor, which no doubt is at the root of the problem, but it’s possible GHTR is, as well.
Just a possibility that she may NOT be an MF.
Re: Girl Hot Tin Roof – My first reaction was that GHTR was scared and wanted to sabotage the relationship with her boyfriend that she was getting more serious with because of a fear of intimacy. On second thought, when I read that she had absolutely no regret about it, it made me agree with Dan Savage that she just doesn’t have any feelings for the guy and she needs to get out of the relationship.
I think the “choicer challenge” could backfire tremendously. If John Cummins thinks it’s a choice, there’s a good chance he’s a closet bisexual. If that were the case, he could call Dan’s bluff.
Obviously he wouldn’t because he’s a prude, but still.
(Pulls up John Cummins on Google Image Search)
Damn, Dan. You’re taking one for the team on this one, huh?