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Apr 27, 2011 at 4:00 am
Hey, remember that time Barack Obama shot Osama bin Laden in the face? That was pretty awesome, right? It also brought clarity to the Obama doctrine and remade America. What will the Republicans do now?
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Now let's see if he starts pushing the Republicans around like we've wanted him to.
B~
Did your copy editor nod off in the very first sentence?
"It wasn’t until after 2002, when the agency began rounding up Qaeda operatives — and subjecting them to hours of brutal interrogation sessions in secret overseas prisons — that they finally began filling in the gaps about the foot soldiers, couriers and money men Bin Laden relied on."
aka extraordinary rendition and torture
Guess Bush & Co. were right… Can we please start that program again now???
Sounds to me like he wouldn't be dead if we hadn't had Bush...
stick to comic books
I don't know of a single expert on the Middle East, terrorism in general, or Al Qaeda in particular who wouldn't chuckle at the childish notion that killing bin Laden marked the end of anything other than a hunt for bin Laden, let alone "a very particular war of terror perpetrated against America over the last 10 years" (I'm not even sure what that means).
And to suggest that killing bin Laden "remade America" should be embarrassing to anyone with an elementary understanding of U.S. history and foreign policy. It's the kind of shallow, meaningless rhetoric one expects to find at Red State and Free Republic. But, sadly, these are the intellectually stunting effects of reflexive political loyalism.
This is partisan cheer-leading at its least mature from a person who wishes everyone would just ignore the fact that Obama has been destroying innocent lives by supporting and implementing foreign and national security policies that are explicitly endorsed by neo-conservative leaders.
If only we could all forget that Obama is prosecuting government whistle-blowers at the highest rate in decades, while shielding Bush administration officials from any criminal investigations.
If someone is interested in the effects of bin Laden's death beyond what it means for the continuous inanity that is national political sports, there are a variety of sources available.
http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/20…
http://www.salon.com/news/opinion/glenn_…
McCain said "Larry, I'm not going to go there and here's why, because Pakistan is a sovereign nation. I think the Pakistanis would want bin Laden out of their hair and out of their country and it's causing great difficulties in Pakistan itself. But I want to assure you I will get Osama bin Laden as president of the United States and I will bring him to justice no matter what it takes."
It is clear in the interview that the "there" McCain was referring to was not the geographical location, but the semantic "not going to go there" as in he wasn't going to publicly telegraph his willingness to order an operation of foreign non-enemy sovereign soil. Whether or not this result was made more or less likely by the election of Obama or McCain is probably impossible to calculate. To claim that this in any way "suggests we never would have caught bin Laden if we had kept Republicans in power" is a gross misappropriation of your soap box.
The only thing you can say definitively is that Obama did order the operation that captured and killed OBL on foreign non-enemy sovereign soil. Any rational person who might have had doubts that this was possible will need to re-evaluate their assumptions. As for the irrational ones, they will have to further justify their twisted logic with even more twisted logic.
@5: Missed it by a mile.
This was precisely because the Bush team was staffed with the retard rump of the Nixon team. An amazing collection of morons by any measure, and not strong on ethics, either.
If BUSH had been the one to have found bin Laden and ordered him killed, this country wouldn've erupted in the greatest right-wing blowbang since Goldwater got the nomination at the RNC in '64 and folks started screaming and smashing their chairs at the Cow Palace.
If this thing had been a failure, that would've been the end of the president. No one would have let him live it down if bin Laden had escaped or if any one the special forces members involved were killed.
Now all the same crazy people who hate the president because of things like his wife begging folks not to make their kids so fat are just turning around and making it look like something HORRIBLE has happened. Yeah, he did it, but it was only through torture, and other gross indignities counter to basic respect for human life and common decency. Yeah, he did, but where's the body? Couldn't we have just posed bin Laden's body so he was cradling the president's birth certificate in his hands? Killed two birds with one stone?
If you support the troops, you support their Commander-in-Chief, too. For crying out loud, will Americans NEVER come together about ANYTHING ever again? What good is it doing you people to have such a polarized, knee-jerk-reacting point of view? Why do you hate reality?
Thanks for your astute and specific criticism of numerous points Paul made in this Stranger article. Your attention to the main tenets of his argument is well-conceived and I'm eager to hear more of your opinions. Thanks!
I believe that the "very particular war of terror perpetrated against America over the last 10 years," is a reference to the Republican Party's scare tactics - not a description of a military campaign waged against terrorist organizations. Mr. Constant is having fun with words.
Those people don't matter and should be ignored. There are a lot of sane people who refuse to support the president because he acts mostly like a neo-conservative, which means he's been destroying the lives of a lot of innocent people, at home and abroad.
This fact, however, doesn't matter to Republican or Democratic loyalists. Winning elections is the be-all and end-all, while lives destroyed are merely eggs in the victory omelette.
Democrats are every bit as guilty as Republicans of waging that "very particular war."
In what universe are you qualified to request qualifications for an opinion?
I assume by "socialist agenda," you must mean "that time he propped up wall street with federal funds" or "extended Bush-era tax cuts for the wealthy, further stratifying wealth," or "continued along a a mostly centrist, reconciliatory path."
Also, usually "ville" is acceptable as an appended suffix. Like "oblivioustofactsville," which is where I assume you call home.
On top of that, people are impugned as crazies on the left or right if they happen to just *question* the WH narrative which in fact has changed its story two or three times about the actual operation and the follow-up--video documentation of the whole thing notwithstanding. I am not a conspiracy theorist and I believe what they say, but there's some real denial going here. It seems like we're being told by some: "Hey shut up moron, when has the government ever lied to you?"
The whole point of this section is to argue that Republicans did not have the oomph to pursue bin Laden. While clearly true w/r/t Bush, the section still clearly implies that McCain would not have gone after bin Laden. McCain said, "I will get Osama bin Laden as president of the United States and I will bring him to justice no matter what it takes."
Maybe McCain would have, and maybe he wouldn't have; but what part of "no matter what it takes" is unclear? That's the context that matters here.
For example, read this article on the relationship between the executive branch and the wing of the military that carried this out (JSOC):
http://www.thenation.com/blog/160332/jso…
I could NOT have put it better myself!!
Excellent column!!
It's fine to be an Obama cheerleader. The President and his team are basking in the light of well deserved popularity. However, this event was years in the making and the President and his staff weren't sure it was going to be pulled off:
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/05/02/bo…
In addition, Obama himself acknowledged Bush in his speech Sunday night. That's not to steal his thunder but this was a far more complicated and extended process than you would think.
Finally, your piece begins with "If a Republican were in office right now, Osama bin Laden would still be in his compound, burning trash and slowly dying of old age." is illogical. There's no way to prove a negative Paul. The Democrats hold the White House not the Republicans. That's like saying "Obama was against the invasion of Iraq". Well, that's true, vocally. But, Obama wasn't in the Senate when the vote to authorize the invasion of Iraq took place. So, we really don't know what Obama would have voted nor will we ever know what McCain would have done in this situation had he been President.
Please feel free to remove your partisan goggles and acknowledge that Constant has a valid point: the assassination of Bin Laden has permanently taken the wind out of a certain strain of cheap political scare tactics.
And why exactly do you think that killing bin Laden has taken the wind out of terrorism based scare tactics? Are you saying that now that Obama has killed bin Laden, he'll stop using fear of terrorism as a basis for secret prisons, indefinite detentions, and drone bombings?
@24, well done.
So shooting an unarmed and crippled bin Laden constitutes an American victory over the perpetrators of 9/11, preceded as it was by the invasions and occupations of Iraq and Afghanistan; the hundreds of thousands of civilians dead as a result; the ruin of the US treasury by the cost of those ongoing wars; Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib; waterboarding, sexual humiliation, "renditions," and innocent prisoners tortured to death; killer drones taking out half the Pakistani village in a hit on a "suspected terrorist"; US air power blowing up Afghan wedding parties; the Patriot Acts; warrantless wiretapping of Americans' phone calls and emails; security gropes at the airport; and the loss of respect for the US by a world that at first responded to the attacks with deep sympathy.
Because if that's a victory, I'd hate to see a defeat.
Now, if he tosses out the "Patriot Act", that would improve his standing with most conservatives and neo-liberals.
This is just the typical "Obama good. Bush bad." rhetoric. This is just complaining one would expect from a high school newspaper. But I guess you get what you pay for.
This is just the typical "Obama good. Bush bad." rhetoric. This is just complaining one would expect from a high school newspaper. But I guess you get what you pay for.
http://www.collegehumor.com/video/649878…
The fact that The Stranger is going to hypocritically participate in celebrating the eye for an eye mentality on display nationwide demonstrates that, deep down, liberals and conservatives are pretty much the same. That, and I am truly alone on this planet.
The difference between McCain and Obama was not as plain a difference as, say, W. Bush and Obama, but if a hypothetical President McCain stayed on the same ideological track as candidate McCain, they never would have found bin Laden's compound.
I mean, can you possibly read this statement without bursting with laughter (or crying in resignation):
"The difference between McCain and Obama was not as plain a difference as, say, W. Bush and Obama, but if a hypothetical President McCain stayed on the same ideological track as candidate McCain, they never would have found bin Laden's compound."
Tell us more of this "drowning man" metaphor. It is fascinating.
Or, it wasn't until after January 20, 2009 when the United States began a more diplomatic approach to international relations that they finally did the hard intelligence work that led them to the courier who led them to bin Laden and were able to successfully bring bin Laden to justice.
You see, millions of things happened before bin Laden was captured. One COULD argue that ANY of those precursor acts was important ... but unless one can establish a clear cause and effect relationship it's all just speculation. I have seen nothing that directly ties brutal interrogations to bin Laden's death. I've seen nothing that directly ties brutal interrogations to ANY useful information gathered. Everything I've seen suggests that the USEFUL information was gained AFTER the brutal interrogations ended.
I would be more impressed if the 2002 interrogations somehow led to bin Laden in the next six months ... or even the next six years ... but it didn't. I would think that if they had such valuable information in 2002 that a competent intelligence community could have used it effectively in less than six years time.
Yes, yes, yes ... I hear you now ... "but it was the brutal interrogations that softened the subjects up". See above.
@10: That statement was chosen because it was clear and space was at a premium.
1. That's not even mildly a response to @10's point that the quote is edited in a misleading way. The quote is clear exactly because it is misleading.
2. The TPM link simply does not support the statement that if a hypothetical President McCain stayed on the same ideological track as candidate McCain, they never would have found bin Laden's compound. Can you cite some evidence that does?
I wish Obama had announced that this bogus 'War on Terror' aka 'War on America's pocketbook, morale and young men/women' was over, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED, we now return to regularly scheduled programming. Trillions saved in one sentence. But he didn't.
Thanks Paul for the pep-talk.
Agree with @78
Democrats eat just as much horseshit as republicans, and this is coming from someone who cried overwhelming tears of happiness when Obama was first elected.
Now it seems strange that anyone from the Stranger could support Obama.
Who really wants to be a front-running Republican candidate now? The election is a year and a half away, usually the D or R parties would have some obvious star candidates announcing their bid by now or earlier. AND..
a) they've got to follow THIS act, Obama getting Osama,
b) they've got to be extreme enough to please their presently extremist base, yet somehow moderate and likeable enough to win independent & some democratic voters in order to win. What the hell will THAT look like?
LOL
Interesting, if Osama died years ago, who would admit it now.
His family gets to keep his money, and the influx of donations to come.
Al Qaeda has a new martyr, and additional grievances against the US.
The US can declare "Mission Accomplished" yet again. Who is going to tell us; "uh uh, that’s not what happened".
I do not think your scenario is plausible, but it would make a great story.
I was actually thinking about this before the recent events and created a quiz: Got Gravitas? Now anyone can see if the've got what it takes.
The short quiz is at Thinking Out Loud, http://marperl.blogspot.com/2011/04/do-y….
Obama's got it; his Republican challengers are short on it.
I was thinking about gravitas before the recent earth-shaking events. Came up with a short quiz: Got Gravitas?
Anyone can try their luck. It's at Thinking Out Loud, http://marperl.blogspot.com/.
Obama finally FINISHED, after 3 years in office, what Dubya COULDN'T and DIDN'T do over 2 full terms bought and paid for by trillions in American tax dollars, corporate bailouts and jobs sent overseas!!!
And @89: It appears as if you're on Santorum.
Six Principles of Global Manipulation
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fF3TQ0lJ…
and:
Anti-Qur'an Strategy of the Bible Project Wheeler-Dealers
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1wXgXwj3…
I am continually disgusted with the American people. Why? Because we honestly and truly hate ourselves. We exhibit this hatred everytime we get a new president. We don't build him up, or support him...noooo we shit all over him instead. Imagine how the rest of the world must view this.
I was unemployed when I woke to the bewildering spectacle on TV on 9/11. The economy had sucked my job away from me then, just as it did in 2009.
I got behind my president with the swelling outrage I felt for the "infidels" that had the fucking nerve to attempt to destroy our sense of sanctity. Democrat, or not, I was on board with anything Bush needed to do to make sure the world remembers not to fuck with (the) US.
Bush decided to steer away from the terrorist hunt, and instead go wandering off looking for WMDs and wire tapping any and everyone and taking away our freedoms. Homeland security, while being a great idea, also brought with it a sucking effect to our liberty. I still felt the need to support his actions, at least initially to see what his game plan was, but it turns out that he distracted us with a different tyrant instead.
I wanted to believe that Bush could get things done. That he would champion the rally to destroy Al Qaeda and the man that, with his wealth, tried to destroy us. Instead, as said above, he gave us expensive, protracted wars that have left scars on top of the scars we already had from 9/11.
My point is, I feel the duty and desire to support any president that acts for the good of our country, because he is MY president, and if we do not support our leader, what does that say about us? For example, I love my parents, but I have been disappointed by them on many an occasion, but ok...they are human beings. They are my folks and I will stand behind them.
Support your president, give him the credit when he deserves it, hold him accountable when he deserves it. He won't offer policy that we always afree with. But for Christ's sake have a little respect for the office he holds, and dear god have some respect for yourselves. Love this country like it is yours and remember, we can either piss all over what we stand for, or we can be examples of liberty and justice for all.
Okay sorry--my bust.
Their ignorance is showing.
The duty, if you want to call it that, is rather the opposite in a free society. If the leadership is not going in the direction that the Demos put them there to take this country, then that leadership needs either to be corrected or removed from power.
Does anyone really believe that Bin Laden was killed on that date? There have been several credible people that state that he died years ago. It was a political ploy, and a complete sham. Think about it... if YOU were prez and bumped off Bin Laden, would YOU announce it to the world???? Of course not! Not only would you re-radicalize and solidify the opposition, but also, keeping quiet, you could just hang around the compound and see who shows up.
Obama is just another corporate pimp, just like Bush. Either of them might have meant well, both they're both just corporate pimps now. You know Obushma is sending out the thugs to bust people with medical weed? Ya!
Lil Miss "we-be-change" is just another fart in the windstorm of american corporatocracy.
I never equated the president to my father per se.
I know, let's all just have anarchy, because we all know better than our elected officials. Hell "if I were president" blah blah fucking blah.
My point was, our parents deserve forgiveness even when toxic... And do you know why? Because we don't forgive others for them, but for us, and how we feel about ourselves and our willingness to recognize that while leaders, much as parents are far from perfect, they are ours... Now fucking deal with it or don't, the choice is yours.
I understand everyone has feet of clay. Again, people can and should leave their parents if they have autonomy issues. Or would you rather victims of rape and incest stick around with their aggressors? Or even those who are victims of emotional incest or abuse? Would you like them to live with mom and dad until they pass? People waste their lives doing that you know.
The same can be said for leaders. Do you want to forgive and forget leaders who believe that they can declare you guilty and kill you without a trial? Who kill women and children on some whimsical crusade of vengeance for blowback that we caused? Fuck that.
If the prez, representing the country, sends a secret mission to off someone in a foreign sovereign nation (even someone we all hate), he can do it ANYWHERE, including here. As we have done in the past (Guatemala, Iran, etc.). As long as these things are done in the name of our 'homeland', that means they are done in the names of all of us. Democracy is messy. Trials are messy. But true justice would demand that OBL be tried in an appropriate court of law, be it US or international. It is obvious that this was a kill mission from the get-go. We're never going to get to a more peaceful world if our most prominent method of action is violence.
As far as the being responsible for the deaths of a million doesn't make me lose too much sleep. There isn't a place in this world where decisions, I mean the really dirty difficult decisions don't wind up with dead bodies.
Face it, stand by and do nothing? people die. Act? people die.
Stand for your country and nominated leaders or get the fuck out...go live in Canada or something.
There are no perfect leaders, there is no perfect anything. I just can't wait to see how badly we fuck over our next president. I mean after all he's our whipping boy no?
I am neither a conservative nor am I into violent killings--even of someone who has willfully caused the wrongful deaths of zillions of others. It's sad that ANYBODY had to face death as a form of justice.
My condolences to everyone who was lost in NYC and Washington, D.C., and those lost in two illegal, costly wars.
O.K. I'm done.