I went to high school with Mark Driscoll. He was a pompous douchenozzle then and as I have seen, has grown in a metastisizing douche of ultimate christofascist douchebaggery.

Funny thing: Mark's older brother was a member of one of Seattle's greatest underrated bands of all time, the Purdins.

@102

If you just would have listened to pastor Mark's recommendations, bro, this wouldn't have gone down this way:

"Be assured that you can be cured of your difficulty. Many have been, both male and female, and you can be also if you determine that it must be so.

This determination is the first step. That is where we begin. You must decide that you will end this practice, and when you make that decision, the problem will be greatly reduced at once.

But it must be more than a hope or a wish, more than knowing that it is good for you. It must be actually a DECISION. If you truly make up your mind that you will be cured, then you will have the strength to resist any tendencies which you may have and any temptations which may come to you.

After you have made this decision, then observe the following specific guidelines:

A Guide to Self-Control:

1. Never touch the intimate parts of your body except during normal toilet processes.

2. Avoid being alone as much as possible. Find good company and stay in this good company.

3. If you are associated with other persons having this same problem, YOU MUST BREAK OFF THEIR FRIENDSHIP. Never associate with other people having the same weakness. Don't suppose that two of you will quit together, you never will. You must get away from people of that kind. Just to be in their presence will keep your problem foremost in your mind. The problem must be taken OUT OF YOUR MIND for that is where it really exists. Your mind must be on other and more wholesome things.

4. When you bathe, do not admire yourself in a mirror. Never stay in the bath more than five or six minutes -- just long enough to bathe and dry and dress AND THEN GET OUT OF THE BATHROOM into a room where you will have some member of your family present.

5. When in bed, if that is where you have your problem for the most part, dress yourself for the night so securely that you cannot easily touch your vital parts, and so that it would be difficult and time consuming for you to remove those clothes. By the time you started to remove protective clothing you would have sufficiently controlled your thinking that the temptation would leave you.

6. If the temptation seems overpowering while you are in bed, GET OUT OF BED AND GO INTO THE KITCHEN AND FIX YOURSELF A SNACK, even if it is in the middle of the night, and even if you are not hungry, and despite your fears of gaining weight. The purpose behind this suggestion is that you GET YOUR MIND ON SOMETHING ELSE. You are the subject of your thoughts, so to speak.

7. Never read pornographic material. Never read about your problem. Keep it out of mind. Remember -- "First a thought, then an act."

The thought pattern must be changed. You must not allow this problem to remain in your mind. When you accomplish that, you soon will be free of the act.

8. Put wholesome thoughts into your mind at all times. Read good books --Church books -- Scriptures -- Sermons of the Brethern. Make a daily habit of reading at least one chapter of Scripture, preferably from one of the four Gospels in the New Testament, or a Richard Simmons book. The four Gospels -- Matthew, Mark, Luke and John -- above anything else in the Bible can be helpful because of their uplifting qualities.

9. Pray. But when you pray, don't pray about this problem, for that will tend to keep [it] in your mind more than ever. Pray for faith, pray for understanding of the Scriptures, pray for the Missionaries, the General Authorities, your friends, your families, BUT KEEP THE PROBLEM OUT OF YOUR MIND BY NOT MENTIONING IT EVER -- NOT IN CONVERSATION WITH OTHERS, NOT IN YOUR PRAYERS. KEEP IT _OUT_ of your mind! The attitude of a person toward his problem has an affect on how easy it is to overcome. It is essential that a firm commitment be made to control the habit. As a person understands his reasons for the behavior, and is sensitive to the conditions or situations that may trigger a desire for the act, he develops the power to control it.

As one meets with his Priesthood Leader, a program for overcoming masturbation can be implemented using some of these suggestions. Remember it is essential that a regular report program be agreed on, so progress can be recognized and failures understood and eliminated.

Suggestions:

1. Pray daily, ask for the gifts of the Spirit, that which will strengthen you against temptation. Pray fervently and out loud when the temptations are the strongest.

2. Follow a program of vigorous daily exercise. The exercises reduce emotional tension and depression and are absolutely basic to the solution of this problem. Double your physical activity when you feel stress increasing.

3. When the temptation to masturbate is strong, yell STOP to those thoughts as loudly as you can in your mind and then recite a prechosen Scripture or sing an inspirational hymn. It is important to turn your thoughts away from the selfish need to indulge.

4. Set goals of abstinence, begin with a day, then a week,month, year and finally commit to never doing it again. Until you commit yourself to never again you will always be open to temptation.

5. Change in behavior and attitude is most easily achieved through a changed self-image. Spend time every day imagining yourself strong and in control, easily overcoming tempting situations.

6. Begin to work daily on a self-improvement program. Relate this plan to improving your Church service, to improving your relationships with your family, God and others. Strive to enhance your strengths and talents.

7. Be outgoing and friendly. Force yourself to be with others and learn to enjoy working and talking to them. Use principles of developing friendships found in books such as How to Win Friends and Influence People by Dale Carnegie.

8. Be aware of situations that depress you or that cause you to feel lonely, bored, frustrated or discouraged. These emotional states can trigger the desire to masturbate as a way of escape. Plan in advance to counter these low periods through various activities, such as reading a book, visiting a friend, doing something athletic, etc.

9. Make a pocket calendar for a month on a small card. Carry it with you, but show it to no one. If you have a lapse of self control, color the day black. Your goal will be to have no black days. The calendar becomes a strong visual reminder of self control and should be looked at when you are tempted to add another black day. Keep your calendar up until you have at least three clear months.

10. A careful study will indicate you have had the problem at certain times and under certain conditions. Try and recall, in detail, what your particular times and conditions were. Now that you understand how it happens, plan to break the pattern through counter activities.

11. In the field of psychotherapy there is a very effective technique called aversion therapy. When we associate or think of something very distasteful with something which has been pleasurable, but undesirable, the distasteful thought and feeling will begin to cancel out that which was pleasurable. If you associate something very distasteful with your loss of self-control it will help you to stop the act. For example, if you are tempted to masturbate, think of having to bathe in a tub of worms, and eat several of them as you do the act.

12. During your toileting and shower activities leave the bathroom door or shower curtain partly open, to discourage being alone in total privacy. Take cool brief showers.

13. Arise immediately in the mornings. Do not lie in bed awake, no matter what time of day it is. Get up and do something. Start each day with an enthusiastic activity.

14. Keep your bladder empty. Refrain from drinking large amounts of fluids before retiring.

15. Reduce the amount of spices and condiments in your food. Eat as lightly as possible at night.

16. Wear pajamas that are difficult to open, yet loose and not binding.

17. Avoid people, situations, pictures or reading materials that might create sexual excitement.

18. It is sometimes helpful to have a physical object to use in overcoming this problem. A Book of Mormon,firmly held in hand, even in bed at night has proven helpful in extreme cases.

19. In very severe cases it may be necessary to tie a hand to the bed frame with a tie in order that the habit of masturbating in a semi-sleep condition can be broken. This can also be accomplished by wearing several layers of clothing which would be difficult to remove while half asleep.

20. Set up a reward system for your successes. It does not have to be a big reward. A quarter in a receptacle each time you overcome or reach a goal. Spend it on something which delights you and will be a continuing reminder of your progress.

21. Do not let yourself return to any past habit or attitude patterns which were part of your problem. Satan Never Gives Up. Be calmly and confidently on guard. Keep a positive mental attitude. You can win this fight! The joy and strength you will feel when you do will give your whole life a radiant and spiritual glow of satisfaction and fulfillment.

Everything about this is unbelievable and sad. Your future father in law knows about your porn & masterbation?! There is something wrong with either of those? You got drunk and had sex? God Damn you're going straight to hell. Any person, group or doctrine that demands shame on you for things consenting adults do together- even if they are a mistake (that you likely learned your Own lesson from) is abusive and wrong... I'd like to acknowledge the other MH posters and supporters in this post, forgiving that they are likely products of the red counties we support, but ignore like step children, and remind readers of the study linked earlier this week regarding IQ, religion and social conservatism. If I prayed, it'd be for you, brother.

That's interesting, because I've heard stories of people who were disciplined/booted out of other churches that then showed up at Mars Hill and became leaders instantly.

YES @15. Exactly.
This is my neighborhood and been watching this church and it's leader closely for about a decade. This is not my Christianity.
Basically anyone who wants to create a separation between you and your family and friends... well, there are clinical diagnosis's for people who do this to other people. It's a sickness, a disease, a lust for power over others. Fascist is a good word too.
If I've said it once, I've said it a thousand times; "This man will go down in flames, mark my word." Of course I've ben saying it for years and years and years...

Lance-MH,

Hi...I am Sophia, keeper of the marshillrefuge.blogspot.com blog...And I hear you. I don't know if you have read our story but we did not sin either. We just wanted to go elsewhere.

I am glad you saw MH for what it is...I will link to your story on our blog. If you would like to guest post, please email me.

My post on the Mars Hill church discipline abuse scandal, for those interested: 'Mars Hill Seattle, and the Problem of Insulated Churches'

http://brokentelegraph.com/2012/01/30/ma…

@Matholamew
" If they had dealt with their problems with the church in a loving, christ-like way, then I have faith that they could have worked something out and these problems would have been avoided."

I'm very sorry you do not see the error in that statement.

I'm a deacon at Mars Hill and have been a member of the church for eight years. Because the names of the people interviewed in this article have been omitted, and the accused haven't been provided the opportunity to respond, I can't comment on those cases specifically. That said, I don't doubt that some of these accounts are probably true.

When I first came to MH, our congregation consisted of 1,000 people in one location. Today we are 15,000 people in 14 locations. We have dozens of pastors, hundreds of deacons, and hundreds of community group leaders, and in any organization of that size there will inevitably be some problems.

No one is required to become a member to attend services at Mars Hill, and everyone knows the rules when they sign the Member Covenant. Don't like the rules, don't join. There are leaders in the church I don't agree with either, just as there are in my day job. If you have a problem with one leader, take up the issue with another, or switch groups/locations. I'll bet that every day of the week, people get fired from Microsoft for not being "team players", or failing to follow the terms of their employment contracts. But I don't see the Stranger writing articles entitled "Software company or cult?"

Mars Hill leaders are human and flawed, just like everyone else. And when we make mistakes, we are disciplined or removed, just like our members. And for every one story like the ones mentioned in this article, I can tell you a dozen other stories of people like myself, who were saved from lives of abuse, drug addiction, depression, and hopelessness through the grace and work of Jesus Christ at Mars Hill.

Wow, another anti-Marshill/Mark Driscoll article from the Stranger. Surprise, surprise. In a city of more than 2 million don't you have something else to write about?

History has shown that those who impose these standards are often sexually perverse themselves. Time will play this out. Don't be surprised.

hi - good article. wanted to point out that boys being kinesthetic learners has NOTHING to do with their sexuality. Boys learning styles have led to higher ADHD diagnosis rates and failure in school environments. Boys simply learn in a more physical manner and really do need lots of physical activity. No matter what an idiot Driscoll is, he's actually right that providing indoor playgrounds would help boys in general. A gay boy would feel fine because unless he's actually transgendered, he's still a boy and will still learn like a boy.

I am not a member of Mars Hill. I am not even Christian. I'm just a guy that reads The Stranger, and I have to say that this article was kinda lame. I mean, to start with, the verdict was clearly made before the research was even started. It goes without saying that there was a heavy bias employed in selecting interview subjects, but it goes further than that - it is totally weak journalism. Sure, religion is a touchy subject. Most of the above comments serve to show how easy it is to stir that pot. If you are going to write about religion, why not challenge your readership in some way? All I can see here is that The Stranger had nothing more interesting to report on, so sunk to the low tide of journalism - attacking churches. Yawn.

Full disclosure: I attend Mars Hill Church regularly, and I am a member.

I'm sorry that you were disappointed that Pastor Mark did not address any of these old or new issues in the sermon you attended. Pastor Mark's sermons are in fact not transmitted live anymore (although they used to be a couple of years ago). Most weeks there is a one-week delay between the sermon preached in Ballard and the sermons seen at the other locations. In the Real Marriage series, the majority of the sermons were actually recorded in two long evening sessions at the Bellevue location back in December so you may continue to expect them not to address topical subjects for the next several weeks.
Thanks,
Jeremy

The one defining characteristic of every cult is CONTROL - its leader's desire to control every aspect of their followers' lives.

This is a cult.

God hates faux hawks, especially Mark's. A heavenly angel came to me in my sleep and told me this, no joke!

Here's a helpful blog (from a local church) on the pros and cons of church discipline: http://graceseattle.wordpress.com/2012/0…

Sounds like Jerry Falwell come back to life as a wanna be hipster:
- sheep. Check
- school. Check
- balls. Check

Next thing we'll hear him talk about wanting to open up a research university as bad ass as UW.

The ironic thing, to me at least, is that the term 'hipster' sounds like one of those media inventions, in this case, as a tool to communicate their ideas about a sub-culture (they haven't quite figured out yet). No?

Mars Hill isn't much different from most evangelical conservative christian churches. If you ask me about my old church, I will tell you that it is a good church, that is full of good people, but people who are too afraid to be real, too afraid of being anything but superfical.

I attend Mars Hill, and I can say that the people who leave Mars Hill might say the same thing.

The core of it is, when you leave a church, unless you're are moving due to geography, there is ALWAYS a degree of hurt and maybe distrust. These people were your family, they dealt with the junk in your life, and then poof, they're gone. That intensifies the hurt. I still feel hurt from leaving my old church, BUT I also have enough wisdom to know, that that's just how it goes.

I'm sorry for the people of MH that have been deeply hurt. Some of it is probably just as I said, and some of it I am sure is based on someone at the church, acting on their own wisdom, and not God's.

What you have to realize is, church is a place of broken people. We are always going to hurt eachother, and I think hurt eachother more deeply, because we know eachother on a deeper level.

It's easy to judge the whole church, but don't forget, you're judging the people whithin it, most who are just the average people of the city. Which, is like saying "all asians drive hondas, or all lesbians have short hair, or all people who wear tennis shoes run" You are making sweeping sterotypes that are not always true, and sometimes very hurtful

I know The Stranger's demographic, and while trying not to be a hypocrite... most already don't like Mars Hill. Please though, balance your reporting. And if they don't want to speak to you, could it be, because they have been burned by your newspaper too many times, and they don't want to feed the beast and be misquoted?

Consider it.

I guess since the author of the article doesn't provide any example or explanation about what a "church" would be, or look like, we are all forced to draw the conclusion that it's a cult. It looks less like reporting, or even journalism, and more like people with a social-issue axe to grind.

Also, it is hilarious to me that everyone is freaking out about the church wanting to teach kids when they are 2 years old. Imagine the brainwashing! The government has made it a legal requirement for you to have your kids schooled for 12 years, starting around the age of 6, and if you didn't want to attempt this hurculean task on your own, they've provided the facilities for you to send your kids to (since you're required to). But fear not, I am sure no brainwashing happens there.

Just kidding. The intellectually feeble comments in this section, demonstrating a general inability to critically think, prove the brainwashing machine is alive and well.

Keep calm and carry on, citizens!

134 & 166 (response to 156) Are the highlights to this circular conversation, I'm glad a read through all this for those two alone..

Lawls! I love the defenders of MH that, in the same breath, state that they know their church leaders and Mark himself are extreme and not always right in their thinking. However, they, the poster, do not think the same way and are not misogynists and believe in equal rights for women. In case you forgot, in the eyes of your opposition, YOU ARE Driscoll, as far as anyone who is not in your fellowship is concerned. Your numbers of members do not allow you to be viewed any other way, and unfortunately for you, this douche is your talking head. Don't like how you are viewed? Find another church. Or, perhaps, like JC or MD, start your own. Why not. Otherwise, at least admit that you're a little bigoted and a misogynist. Lying, even to yourself, as preached by your people, is a sin. You're only as good as your leader.

Considering that the Andrew of the story was engaged and then "came pretty close to having sex" with another woman (what does that mean? for some people it's anything besides technical intercourse), and then reports that he told his fiance this and immediately "sped off in his car," I wondered to myself whether he ever bothered to apologize to her or try to make anything right. But the story completely skips over that. And what about the other woman? What is he going to tell her? "Oh ha ha. You know how we fooled around the other day. Well actually I'm engaged. Well actually not any more now. So what do you think? You and me?" The whole thing seems pretty messy. I don't understand why it would be bad then to ask the man not to date anyone for awhile. That seems more than reasonable! Clearly this was an incredibly hurtful act he did against his fiance and I just wonder if anyone considered her in all of this? It must be even worse for her knowing that after all that, he left the church and took all their dirty laundry and aired it out to the public. And partly over the perfectly reasonable request of being asked not to date anyone for awhile.

I don't think we have the right to sit back on limited information and judge the situation. We don't know hardly any of the context under which the documents we've seen were written or the other side of the story. We don't know what Andrew had said or what the people he was meeting with had said. But based on what we do have, in my opinon I don't see the cult aspect here. He did exactly what he wanted in every situation. Maybe he felt bad for a while that he did this, but when push came to shove, there's no evidence that he tried to clean up any of the mess he made or practice the Christian faith he professes. He confessed what he had done but then just walked away. And then he's the one that took this whole situation to the public without regard for the others involved. That doesn't seem noble to me or a trustworthy account to base anything on.