Get the Fuck on This - The Stranger | Comments

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1

Out of curiosity - what kinds of punishment does the state hand out for other types of accidental killers? Do they take hunting licenses away from folks who mistake humans for deer? Do they take professional licenses away from electricians who accidentally zap their clients to death? Are there fines & service hours for those folks, too?

Could you give us some more context, please?

on January 13, 2010 at 10:46 PM

2

This would be great if more cyclists would reciprocate respect by safely keeping to the side instead of choosing to dangerously behave like a motorized vehicle. I understand most cyclists and motorists are generally cool...but I don't think I've ever lived in a city (and I've lived around the world) with cyclists and pedestrians so militant. In contrast, Chinese law gives the right of way to bigger vehicles. As you can guess, vehicular homicide is an issue there, and yet there is absolutely no behavior in plain sight antagonizing dangerous situations on the road.

on January 15, 2010 at 11:09 AM

3

What some cyclists don't seem to realize is that getting into a scrap with a vehicle can result in death or dismemberment. You might get a settlement (if they're insured) but no amount of money can replace health. It is far more prudent to ride as far over as possible rather than to attempt to uphold "rider rights" or whatever. I've been hit twice by cars in Seattle (once was my fault) so I have no problem riding on the sidewalk if I don't feel safe.

on January 15, 2010 at 12:27 PM

4

@1

http://www.kirotv.com/news/20018584/deta…

lopes on January 15, 2010 at 12:55 PM

5

#3 & #2: Cyclists tend to ride farther out in a traffic lane for a couple of safety reasons: A major one is that being doored (hit by the opening driver-side door of a parked vehicle) is incredibly common in Seattle and elsewhere. As an anecdotal sample, I've known at least four acquaintances who have gotten accidentally doored in the last couple of years, and about half of my friends who ride have had it happen to them at least once in this city during their riding career. It can result in some pretty terrible injuries, and it's often very, very hard for both parties to avoid. I ride a bike and drive a car in roughly equal amounts, and I understand on both sides why it happens - it's just hard for drivers, when they're exiting their car, to constantly be aware that they might be opening their door into an oncoming biker in the bike lane. And it's hard for bikers to see inside every car as they ride past line after line of parked cars.

The other major reason many folks cycle out in lanes, rather than far to the right, is to be more visible to drivers - riding far to the right does make it easier for drivers to pass you, but you'd be surprised at how many drivers simply don't notice a biker on the side of the road unless the cyclist is out toward the middle, taking up space and visual field of the driver. I've been knocked down a couple times by cab drivers who didn't see me and bumped me off the road when I'm riding too far to the right to be noticed by distracted drivers.

I totally agree that riders should be careful and courteous, and that some in Seattle fail to do this. But please don't take cyclists riding out in traffic as an act of aggression - for a great many of us it's just a simple survival tactic, and we (or at least I) regret that it sometimes pisses drivers off when do it. It's to protect ourselves, and to protect drivers from having to deal with the nightmare of hitting a cyclist accidentally.

on January 15, 2010 at 1:53 PM

6

Seriously ... People who drive cars should actually pay attention to what they're doing. There is never a case I can think of where "death or dismemberment" is an excusable result. Cars can easily kill people, including people in other cars, and they should be driven with care. The law should be passed, it's time for people to take responsibility for their negligence - they live in a city, and if they can't deal with the hard task of other people being around them, they shouldn't be here.

lanalp on January 15, 2010 at 4:03 PM

7

I have to say that the cyclists here are not terribly aware of the general rules of the road either, and use crosswalks/sidewalks/lane splitting with very little concern for their own safety.

This spring I was driving down eastlake and a cyclist zipped out on one of the dedicated crosswalks at about 20mph. Thankfully traffic was moving slow and I was able to stop. He got off the bike an started accosting me. I told him he wasn't a pedestrian, and and that he was supposed to behave like any other motor vehicle. It escalated.

Yes, motorists need to pay attention, and there are far too many accidents. But in the 4-5 close calls I've had, they have all been the cyclists' fault -

Chris Jury on January 15, 2010 at 7:18 PM

8

The new law won't protect me when I'm dead. I stay the hell away from cars whenever possible. If I have to ride in the street, I ride on the left, so if someone doors me, I will crash their door shut on them. It also allows me to make positive eye contact with oncoming drivers.

seattlebikeguy on January 15, 2010 at 8:27 PM

9

5 grand seems like a pretty small price for a life. I've heard of hired killers who got more. I think that the penalties should be more.

By the way - this is not just about bikes. Did you commentators actually read the article or did you just come here to recite your very boring story about the bicyclist-who-ran-the light story?

on January 15, 2010 at 9:42 PM

10

I'd like to know what Bicyclists and Motorists alike think about Scooter riders and Motorcyclists with regard to this article.

Where do the motorized two-wheeled members of our traffic community fit into your thoughts and opinions?

lumen on January 15, 2010 at 11:10 PM

11

Jesus christ. We have #3 saying he rides on the sidewalk to feel safer and #8 saying he rides against traffic to feel safer. No wonder so many Seattle cyclists are getting killed if this is how you roll.

on January 16, 2010 at 5:31 AM

12

Come on Eli, this is a pretty lame attempt to fire up the flames in the bicyclists v. drivers war. There are many careless people in this city pointing their fingers at everyone else -- that's not a new insight there. I used to be entertained by the Stranger, and maybe I'm just getting old, but now it just seems so banal.

sexyredhead on January 16, 2010 at 8:53 AM

13

its definitely a two way street here, but as a driver in Seattle I see it almost every day. a bike running red lights, weaving in and out of traffic lanes with no signal or even a checking of their blind spot, running stop signs. you name it and bikers will break it. the worst offenders do things like the ass that passed me riding the WRONG WAY down second ave in the center of the friggin road.

yes people in cars should be more aware and better trained. but by that standard so should bikers.

Claythargic on January 16, 2010 at 11:56 AM

14

1. Bicyclists are at far more risk for injury than those in vehicles so their risky behavior is sort of self limiting.

2. If the driver of the vehicle wasn't negligent and it was the bicyclist's fault then the fine won't apply to them.

What's the problem here exactly? Negligent drivers should be held more accountable. Why is that a problem for some people?

Steelyeyes on January 16, 2010 at 12:11 PM

15

Bikers need to be taxed, licensed, and ticketed. This would solve most of the problems with the ignorant cyclists in this city. We all see them everyday. Of course there are some cyclists who ride responsibly. But the majority of them ride recklessly and with complete disregard for other vehicles and pedestrians who they must share the road with. It is ironic that these are the very people who complain the loudest. And let's not forget their monthly plans to run red lights and provoke drivers by corking. You people make it impossibly hard for us minority serious cyclists to earn any respect in this town.

on January 16, 2010 at 1:15 PM

16

Cyclists need to be taxed, licensed, and ticketed. This would solve most of the problems with the ignorant cyclists in this city. We all see them everyday. Of course there are some cyclists who ride responsibly. But the majority of them ride recklessly and with complete disregard for other vehicles and pedestrians who they must share the road with. It is ironic that these are the very people who complain the loudest. And let's not forget their monthly plans to run red lights and provoke drivers by corking. You people make it impossibly hard for us minority serious cyclists to earn any respect in this town.

on January 16, 2010 at 1:17 PM

17

@7 Chris Jury: You have a misunderstanding of Seattle traffic laws. Cyclists can ride on the sidewalk, but must yield to pedestrians in all cases. When on the sidewalk or in a crosswalk, bicycles must be treated by cars as pedestrians. "Lane splitting", or passing on the right, is legal for cyclists and motorcyclists, but they must yield to all motorists.

@15 & 16 cdalerider: When did you start to ride? Most people learn to ride bicycles around ago 5 or 6. You want to "taxed, licensed, and ticket" five year olds?

To everyone who claims that you see cyclists breaking laws all the time: At least those cyclists are visible. The vast majority of cyclists who obey traffic laws at least as much as any motorist are invisible to motorists. When Bryce Lewis, a 19 year-old kid from Colorado, was killed at the corner of Fuhrman and Eastlake in 2007, he was riding legally in a marked bike lane that a truck turned into without checking for oncoming traffic. The way our laws are currently, that truck driver would have faced severe penalties had it been a motorist killed. As is, he received no legal punishment at all.

Tremodian on January 16, 2010 at 4:39 PM

18

"I'd love to hang these people up by their toenails at the edge of town and paint 'killer' across their chest and let them hang there until the buzzards peck their eyes out"

WTF? Really? It can be hard to tell who is negligent in the case of a car vs. bike accident, especially because bicycles can be very unpredictable and don't necessarily follow rules (I know cars don't either) and this guy wants to string up every driver who has an ACCIDENT involving anything other than a car and brand them a murderer?
That's fine if you can prove that the driver intentionally killed the cyclist with malice aforethought, but I'm thinking that 99.9999% of the time, the driver of the car has absolutely no intention whatsoever of having anything to do with the cyclist much less cause them harm.
Yes, drivers should pay close attention and use caution! But sometimes accidents happen.

I hardly drive, but you bicycle people terrify me. What a bunch of psychos.

bella on January 17, 2010 at 7:56 AM

19

Bicyclists don't adhere to the letter of the law.
Bicyclists are careless when they ride.

That people can type this without irony is pathetic. Can ANYONE in these comments or ANYWHERE IN THIS CITY say that when they drive their car they NEVER go 5 over the speed limit? Or roll into a crosswalk while taking a free right on red? Or fail to come to a complete stop at a stop sign? Or ignore a yield sign? Or talk on their cell phone or fail to signal or fail to yield to a crossing pedestrian or take an illegal turn, or any of the CORNUCOPIA of other "minor" infractions that we endure from motorists every single day without batting an eye?

Seriously, people. Why don't we ALL get over ourselves. Motorists don't obey all the traffic laws. In fact, there are some laws you can literally GUARANTEE that 99% of drivers will simply ignore or let slide when the situation warrants it.

When a cyclist does this, people freak out and say its an egregious violation of law and public safety. When drivers do it, the critical mass of so many of them violating the letter of the law makes it invisible to us. Because we don't WANT to see it, because we all get where we're going a little faster when it's done.

Regardless of which "side" you're on, the hypocrisy is pretty rank.

nullbull on January 17, 2010 at 11:41 AM

20

I just don't understand how people can pretend that cyclists are so much more of a problem than drivers. Drivers are surrounded by and essentially wielding tons of steel, while cyclists are not. Drivers need to be the ones yielding to cyclists, even when the cyclists are in the wrong, because otherwise people die. (In the same vein, drivers and cyclists alike should yield to pedestrians.)
This should not be an issue. Are people actually going to use the comments section of an article about protecting the lives of cyclists to whine about reckless cyclists? Reckless cyclists don't (can't) do much to drivers except make them pay more attention to their surroundings. Do these people whine the same way about shitty drivers?
I feel like this is like having a conversation about preventing butterflies from being crushed underfoot by dinosaurs and someone on the dinosaurs' side saying BUT THE BUTTERFLIES FLY AROUND LIKE CRAZY!!!111!!

on January 17, 2010 at 4:47 PM

21

If u think bicylist are careless ..u should take a look in the mirror and say to your self...what was i thinking when i wrote this....Unless your out there riding with the traffic u have NO CLUE as to what is going on..no come on ...Me personally I am offended by most of these comments....!!! I ride everyday ...and grant u I"M NO Saint either....Yes I RUN RED LIGHTS ,....thats so i can stay AHEAD of the traffic...!!!U see bikers have a RYTHEM to keep going thats why WE RUN RED LIGHTS or BLOW STOP SIGNS!!! And too all u cyclists out there KEEP YOUR HEAD ON A SWIVEL!!! thats what going to keep u ALIVE!!!

on January 17, 2010 at 8:18 PM

22

@17 - Thank you. I really wish more drivers actually realized this. While a lot of things, like running lights or signs, are illegal a huge amount of the things I hear drivers complain about cyclists doing are not only legal, but often SAFER for them. Riding in lane, or "taking the lane" as it were is far safer for both cyclists and drivers on many roads, and in fact is actively encouraged by authorities in bike cities nation wide. 3-4 feet from parked cars is the recommended distance for riders to safely be able to avoid dooring.

Also something never mentioned is that thanks to the elements and the nature of the city it is dangerous as hell to ride in the right most section of road because of debris and lack of maintenance. Those little potholes drivers hate to go over because it shakes their suspension can toss riders and destroy wheels.

So yah, before drivers bitch about saftey and cyclist breaking laws they should make sure they actually know what they are saying. Ask any cyclist how many times a car, going FASTER than the speed limit, has passed them at dangerously and flat out illegal distances.

on January 18, 2010 at 6:52 AM

23

Quotes like Hiller's at the top of this article give cyclists such a bad name. As a lifelong bike commuter, I'm entirely ashamed to have someone like that as my "advocate." Shouldn't an advocate speak for positive change? Nice job doing just the opposite, Hiller, with your negative rhetoric.

I agree that negligent drivers should be held accountable, but blowhards like Hiller and the thousands of people he stirs up, set the cause back with their aggressive negativity. I hope rational readers understand that although loudmouths are often quoted as the voice of cyclists, and are apparently even hired to speak for us, most of us just want to happily ride our bikes and stay out of everyone's way. Cycling is FUN, people, not a competition. Slow down and enjoy it.

mitten on January 21, 2010 at 10:08 AM

24

I don`t understand how bill 5838 would make cyclists safer. Drivers wouldn`t be driving down the street thinking, "I`d better be extra-vigilant, because if I hit someone I`ll have to do 200 hours of community service and a training course!" These sorts of accidents happen because of negligence, and changing the penalties won`t make drivers any less negligent.

on January 24, 2010 at 10:52 PM

25

If vehicles kill, why not to stay away from them? Seattle's bicyclist agenda come across as a sadomasochistic desire gone too far: I want the rush by being next to danger but if you hurt me too much you'll pay. ...WTF?!

Being a sadomasochist is ok, but only as long as everyone involved agrees to play. When you want to punish people who don't want to play for hurting you too much, it starts to look very insane. ...and it can not prevet accidents anyways.

There are a plenty of sane solution that reduce conflicts between different transportation modes(i.e. better street design, bicycle lanes, physical barriers between different transportation modes, signs for biciclists forbidding or allowing access just like for vehicles, getting rid of sharrows and other confusing elements, etc..)

This penalty/jail solution only encourages more conflict because it provides extra revenues for the city. The city will never fix dangerous roadways if it brings more revenue to them.

This solution just doesn't provide any safety at all. It brings extra revenues for the city and provides more room for masochism, or even sadomasochism, because other people get get hurt as well, not just the bicyclist.

mikey on January 26, 2010 at 3:12 PM

26

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on February 5, 2010 at 11:40 PM

27

"vulnerable users of a public way" (that is, people not encased in tons of steel, such as cyclists and pedestrians).

OK, let's up the penalties against bicyclists who hit pedestrians. Vehicular assault would be appropriate. Pedestrians are vulnerable when approached by a bicycle travelling 30 mph down a sidewalk.

oh... and ringing that little bell, or saying "on your right"... these are requests, not "orders"... for others to yield right of way. FYI.

conspiracypirate on October 22, 2010 at 10:46 AM

28

I understand where David is coming from. Our society protects vulnerable individuals such as children, the aged, and the disabled. Yes when it comes to vehicles striking cyclists it's open season.

It's obvious when confronted with a dangerous multi ton vehicle that some drivers know or feel that they are immune. We need safer streets if more non pro riders are going to venture forth on their bikes & leave their cars waiting for the next trek out of town.

Michael-Peter on October 22, 2010 at 11:57 AM

29

while I agree that drivers should pay more attention, I don't bike but I do ride a motorcycle. The bicyclists need to remember one thing "tonnage always has the right of way" it's not fair but you can be right and you can be dead right. Use some common sense. I have dealt with my fair share of cyclists who are douches just as I have dealt with douchy drivers.

on October 22, 2010 at 1:18 PM

30

Daily bike commuter here.

Stop salmoning (going wrong way on street), people. It's dangerous and makes the rest of us look like complete idiots.

As for the motorists with their 'tales of bicycle traffic infractions' - you guys can all fuck off. I don't even bother to keep track of the times I've nearly been hit by someone blathering away on their phone. In any case - if a cyclist fucks up - chances are she/he will be the one to pay for it. You guys in cars just get a dent or nice free show.

SleepingWithNannyState on October 23, 2010 at 11:34 AM

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