Savage Love Sep 18, 2018 at 4:00 am

Fresh Starts

Joe Newton



Could we have two SL Conventions---one in The Stranger HQ Seattle, and another in New Zealand?


Grizelda, dream on. Sweet as the dream is. Personally, I don’t do planes. NZ, I could hop a cruise ship.. my emails are a mess, can’t see yours. What day did you send or resend please and I will promise to focus and see it.


Would be a scream to have a ‘SL Convention.’


The long distancers could participate in an SL convention via Skype or something, perhaps?

If "misogynist" is merely a slur, I'm not sure why so much energy is being expended on denying the charge. There are worse misogynists on this board, in any case.

As far as the hair thing goes, a phenomenon was observed (over 40, a majority of women seem to wear their hair short, while under 40 more wear it long, a style generally preferred by men), and a conclusion jumped to, which was not supported by facts. Hunter is unable to grasp the concept of women having motivations other than the male gaze. So if women are cutting their hair at 40, it can't be that they've reached an age when their convenience is more important than a desire "to gain looks." No, it must be that their hair isn't healthy enough to wear in man-pleasingly long styles anymore. It's this attitude that women's worlds revolve around men -- particularly in the face of contradictory explanations from women themselves -- that is misogynist. Misogyny as in ignorance and stereotyping rather than misogyny as in hatred.


I’ve got my hair longish.. I trim every now and again, that cuts the split ends.


I also only wash my hair once a week, not as sturdy as it once was.


Been listening to Kendrick Lamar, Grizelda, his last album. Intense.


@114 LavaGirl: Hey--we girls can dream. I think a New Zealand Savage Love Convention as well as a Seattle Savage Love Convention would indeed, be a scream. I sent you mp3 recordings back on Saturday, September 15th.
@116 BiDanFan and @117 & @118 LavaGirl: Here's to long hair for us gals over 50! I'll drink to that!
@119 LavaGirl: Kendrick Lamar--I'll have to give him a listen.


@99 Philophile "It's funny how misandry is never called out."

There's perfectly good reasons for that. (As there are perfectly good reasons we don't commonly hear people complaining about discrimination against white people.)

Obviously there ARE people who have hatred/contempt/prejudice against men. (And against white people.) But the practical/political implications aren't comparable to the other way around (these are thankfully mostly practically confined to being people's psychological issues, for which please let me emphasize there is unfortunately abundant cause).

In other words, groups that are discriminated AGAINST have genuine harm at stake; the groups that do the discriminating do not have comparable harm at stake.

I'll just dash off a few examples. Historically (and in some places today), women have been not treated as people but property. The fight for women to be able to vote in the US took an f-ing century. Women still face a broad range of social and workplace discrimination, oppression, objectification, etc etc. A bloated old sexual assaulter is poised to be elevated to SCOTUS so that (in addition to making Trump invulnerable to justice) US women again lose the right to control their own bodies. And outrageously, in many countries women are treated positively medievally.

(That women have a kind of power now based entirely upon the dynamics of inter-gender dating quite literally the bloody least they deserve.)

In other words, I think people don't usually say "It's funny how misandry is never called out" for the same reason people don't usually out themselves as white supremacists.


@122: Gender inequality that has been going on since Time Immemorial doesn't mean that it's right. I am a single white female veteran over age 50 often discriminated against because I'm neither married nor have any children. Never mind my life achievements. That's male chauvinism and misogyny. I believe that the current neofascist level of white supremacist bullshit in the Err of Trump could certainly lead to a wave of misandry. And all because a bunch of fat, ugly white pigs can't get laid without paying someone.


@123 auntie grizelda
Given what you shared recently, may I please say:
With all the shit women need to put up with from men, it's a wonder (the ones that aren't lesbians) don't all become celibate.


Hunter- the late and hopefully forgotten “End of Day” came to an end after a hostile takeover full of rapey descriptions of men grabbing “the better gender.”

If this is your idea of sex and it works for you and your partner/s that’s fine, just be aware that rape jokes are not funny.


Now I'm tempted to re-watch the second episode of My So-Called Life (which ought to have been nicknamed Patty's Haircut).


@124 curiouis2: I certainly am loving it.
@127 marilynsue: Wow----I'm on a roll!


No, Dadddy @121, I'm not "trying to score points with my tribe." Funny how one's own opinion is always independently and intelligently formed, but someone else's opinion is a result of brainwashing. No, I'm annoyed by your persistent, rude, anti-woman quips and taking advantage of my right to free speech to call you out on them, simple as that. It may not be "original" (like belittling women is? Snore), but thousands of us making the same point over and over again doesn't seem to have worked yet, so it needs to keep being said. I'm not even on Twitter or part of hashtag culture, so your charge that I'm merely parroting others' opinions and not my own is laughable. I agree that so much of online discourse is leading to polarisation. But I question who's the cause of it: the chicken who makes the misogynist comment or the egg who calls it out?

Curious2 @122: Excellent comment, thank you. I do like to think that if commenters are being unfair towards a male LW, which happens often, I'm just as likely to call them on it as I am the misogynist ones. However, because of my own gender, I admit I'm more likely to -notice- subtle digs at the female gender than I am the male one. I do aim for equal intolerance of intolerance! But men are more than capable of defending themselves, and yes, for all the reasons you give, female resentment of men is indeed more justifiable.


Oh, certain primitive masculine signifers.. what could they be dear dadddy.
These threads are not like twitter or random threads people jump on, this is a community of individual voices. You talk about women once removed, with your primitive masculine signifers. Whatever.


Being a good Dom has nothing to do with primitive signifiers, it’s about inhabiting a inner masculine energy. Nothing primitive about what is required. Who wants some dude dragging you along by the hair, grunting?


Yes, some people might like being pulled along the ground by their hair, hearing grunts. So bad example.
It is a time of heightened awareness by women, feeling under attack.
I don’t buy your critique Dadddy, and sharing about your kids means you trust a little bit. Cheers.


@dadddy, people talk about what they care about. I'm sure BDF was worried about a dominant who didn't seem able to clearly separate ethical power play from real abuse. And you were worried because she wasn't friendly enough to you? I'm not as sure what set you off, that's why I thought it had to be old pain.

PS I've found that if BDF is shown respect in the form of compliments, she will more likely believe you are sincerely trying to reach a common ground, if you'd like to talk to her instead of argue.

@curious, I don't believe that one harm cancels out another. I think all harm to others is bad, everyone deserves to have their pain acknowledged. . That's part of my idea of basic respect. I haven't liked being called a misogynist and I don't think I'd like being called a misandrist either, I think there are better ways to address bad behavior. White supremacists are not wrong to care about their rights.. they are wrong because they think they have a right to the status quo; white people on average have more and better opportunities than other races in the US. Or because they can't manage their misery and need to blame a convenient scapegoat.


Combining a couple points here.. How depressing was it when boys starting using rape to mean "overwhelming win"? Backsliding is always happening too.


@134 Philophile
Your whole reply to mine was a thing of debating beauty. But I think there might be a kernel of it where we differ.

"White supremacists are not wrong to care about their rights.. they are wrong because they think they have a right to the status quo"

As I said, superbly articulated.

However, when combined with your also elegant point that "everyone deserves to have their pain acknowledged", I imagine white supremacists communicating with us about their pain. Which is rather bizarre given that (quoting you) "the status quo" is not something "they have a right to" (...because it favors THEM!).

In other words, yes, they have a right to their pain, but when they (quoting you again) "scapegoat" others for it, while we can acknowledge "their pain", we can't rationally agree with them that prejudice against white people has (now quoting me @122) "comparable...practical/political implications" to prejudice against groups that IN REALITY are discriminated against.

In closing, I very much appreciate that you didn't take my @122 as (and reply with) a personal insult.


@curious - flattery will get you everywhere.

" I imagine white supremacists communicating with us about their pain."
Please do. I imagine they would tell you about full time labor jobs that can barely support one person let alone a family. About the heroin pipeline we created from Afghanistan killing the kids. About a government that doesn't give a shit about the extreme class gap. About working hard to get laid off while some guy in India gets your job. Companies try to short worker benefits and workers normally jump companies now. The trump supporters I talk to think he's an asshole towards women. They don't like him really. They like that he's not a career politician and that he ran his campaign on empty promises of political reform and pretend concern for the class gap. He could put on a serious face when discussing the pain of blue collar workers. Even if he was laughing inside because he made so much money off of this screwed up system.. It is because he took their pain seriously that people loved him enough to give up their health care plan and give companies the money with tax breaks. I feel BAD for his supporters they are the little old ladies being swindled out of their pensions. When I talk to them about their pain.. They get my pain at trumps policies too. It makes a difference.

Now the white rights groups that fight black people or equal opportunity.. They are in too much pain to reach I think. Sometimes it is easiest to blame a scapegoat, they can't manage anything better than that.. I think of this as a kind of insanity, I pity them but it's more important to stop them from trying to spread their pain (and find a better way of managing pain).


Now that we are a slaver country again with for- profit prisons, racism is not our biggest problem.


Shit sorry I forgot about disproportionate black inmates. Maybe racism is still our biggest problem. Our economic problems seemed to have grown more widespread though.


@137 Philophile
I do truly have compassion for their pain. You are correct that they are correct that something (many somethings) are deeply wrong, unfortunately of course rightwingers aren't correct about solutions (including economic ones, which are so fundamental at all levels)(unfortunately they now have an alternative Faux news reality available to blind them). I knew one who switched from Trump to Bernie (I dunno what he did after Bernie, I hope/think he might have voted Hillary); which, again, illuminates a lack of clear focus about solutions.

To say the least, it's a long road to help bring them to where they can be part of the solution. The average person shouldn't need to be capable of understanding how we can get ourselves out of such a impossibly monumental mess. I dream of a progressive candidate who can capture the public's trust, one who can both fix this mess...and not misuse their power (for example as IIRC Huey Long did).


Philo @137-139: Thanks for your thoughts. There is a huge overlap between racial inequality and class inequality. If you are poor and black you get shat on twice. But having been temporarily poor and white in America, I do understand where some of the white supremacists' pain comes from. They have been told that they have privilege and power because of their skin colour, but they don't see it, because their poverty cancels it out. So they believe they've been fed a lie about white privilege; or they want to invoke that so-called privilege to improve their lots in life, because capitalism teachers us that we all have a right to financial success. This success has been denied them and they are angry about it. Unfortunately, they're not angry at Trump, Republicans or capitalism, which caused their plight. They listen to Trump and Republicans because they look like them, and blame their woes on immigrants and people of colour who "took our jobs" instead. This fuels race wars which distract people while the rich laugh all the way to the bank.

Philo @134: Compliments do go a long way, with me and with everyone! When someone makes a good comment I do try to make a point of complimenting them, too. You do make another good point that calling someone a misogynist is not an effective way of spurring them to see that they're being unfair towards women, it just puts them on the defensive. No one likes to be scolded, but I don't know a better strategy. Letting misogyny slide just allows it to continue. I'd be interested in hearing suggestions!


In fairness to Hunter, whom I used as an offhand example of a classic SL misogynist, I've ranked the top (or bottom?) misogynist commenters:
1. Eudaemonic, for his constant lashing out at women as "lying shitstains" and refusal to accept sympathy for the trauma he'd clearly suffered.
2. Commentor Commentatus aka Bub Boswell aka whatever alias he's sneaked past Stranger staff, for his haughty royal-we sex shaming. He'd be #1, but he trolled men as well as women. Again, good riddance.
3. Sportlandia, for his bitterness, infecting the SL boards with poison from the manosphere, attempted gaslighting by saying his words don't mean what they obviously mean, and wilful misgendering.
4. Dadddy, who has actually made some intelligent contributions when he drops the "bad boy" persona.
5. Hunter, for denying patriarchy and rape culture exist, the belief that every decision women take is for the benefit of the male gaze, and mansplaining. These are all frustrating but his is a more benign misogyny, as he doesn't insult people and I believe he does not hate women, he just wilfully misunderstands them.

Top five misandrists? Some might include me, but I don't dislike men, I dislike misogynists. Who make the mistake of believing all men think the way they do.


"They have been told that they have privilege and power because of their skin colour, but they don't see it, because their poverty cancels it out. So they believe they've been fed a lie about white privilege; or they want to invoke that so-called privilege to improve their lots in life, because capitalism teachers us that we all have a right to financial success. This success has been denied them and they are angry about it. "
Wow nice. Very succinct. Too bad they don't notice corporate tax breaks instead of skin color. Or that the median personal income has stayed at 30,000 while housing skyrockets and the CEO still makes 100x more and... Did trump pay any taxes on that? Office space, then fight club, then the purge.... There is too much corporate money thrown at a Washington politician, I don't think they'll ever turn that down and really try to make a sustainable economy instead of grab the dollars (and fossil fuels) while available. It may take violent revolution to get political reform at this point, I'm not sure the 1% protests did anything.

Re criticisms & compliments, I don't see the point usually, I try to keep hanging around people I feel good about and generally avoid people I feel bad about.. I more compliment if I think someone needs reassurance, and criticize if I think someone is being really unrealistic, especially if they are shooting themselves in the foot. Or offending me. I get angry about something, then I think about what I expected instead and what I care about, then I try to talk about how everyone could be happier. Or maybe I don't have the energy and just call someone an idiot and avoid them!

I miss eudaemonic. He seemed to feel so powerless at first, he was so twitchy! But he settled down! Seattle blues is so down on himself he needs the pronoun "we" to feel as if his words carry any weight. And I hear Baltimore is worse than DC with crime now.

It is almost like a feeling of powerlessness must accompany the attack. I think that is the root problem.

Relationship problems seem to boil down to : I am upset because of the way my partner behaves or feels. The answer is to try more negotiation for what you need to be happy or make yourself happy as a single. When people can't really take care of themselves as a single with some good friends or maybe family... That powerlessness is the root problem imo. It is sad.

Attachment can be really scary. Romance has gone off the beaten path, it's harder and more fun, but also harder to communicate respect for each other. And when people don't feel respected and cared about by someone they respect and care about, there will be problems. Maybe I am saying that politeness is subjective and cultural, and with no cultural standards people can't negotiate well?


For me Fan @142, I agree with your no1, then I’d place Hunter because he is intractable and a stalker. Your No 2 I’d place no 3. Then Sportlandia and Dadddy I wouldn’t have on my list because they do move thru stuff, subtle changes of attitudes shine thru. So I’d class them as men working on themselves.


@Ghost of Sea Otter: Regarding the Colin Firth / John C. Reilly et al film, The Lobster----Okay, I bought a DVD copy while recently on vacation, and let me say one word: Aiiiiggghhhhh!!! That's supposed to be a dark comedy? I'd call it a horror flick. I stopped watching when the heartless woman at the cult hotel bloodily killed Colin's dog, and without the slightest twinge of remorse. If that's what our future looks like, my beloved VW and I won't mind being among the first of the Loners to go. YUCK.


Lava @144: I don't see any attempt on Sportlandia's part to improve his attitude. Just the opposite. The more he hangs around, the more MRA vocabulary he keeps spouting. And did you read his rant about the sex-worker-by-choice? Serious misogyny there. Yes, both of them do occasionally have interesting insights from the world of the XY chromosome, but we have many more reasonable men on the board making the same points. I have very little time for Sporty, as you know.

Griz @145: Yes, I agree that scene was horrific! Sadly, you stopped watching before Colin takes your advice, decides it's all too much, and flees the institution to go spend time among the forest-dwelling Decidedly Singles. No spoilers, but it's not an improvement.


@146: BiDanFan: Yeah--The Lobster was a deal breaker for me. I couldn't handle any more after the dog killing and John C. Reilly got a hand shoved into a hot toaster. WTF? I instead watched Thelma & Louise for the hundred thousandth time, followed by The Big Chill. Listening to Aretha Franklin classics on my newly purchased CD also helped.
At least I'm comforted that my beloved Love Beetle and I can celebrate being Decidedly Single.

    Please wait...

    Comments are closed.

    Commenting on this item is available only to members of the site. You can sign in here or create an account here.

    Add a comment

    By posting this comment, you are agreeing to our Terms of Use.