Savage Love Oct 19, 2018 at 1:38 pm

Savage Love Letter of the Day



I'd amend this advice to "Not interested in fucking? Don't marry someone who is."

Nothing wrong with getting married and not fucking -- provided your future spouse isn't expecting otherwise. On the other hand, if you don't enjoy sex with other people but misrepresent yourself as a willing fuck partner and marry someone with a high sex drive ... now that's a shitty thing to do.


It's a shame that he couldn't communicate this earlier.


@1 Exactly, it is the fact that they didn't discuss it before hand. She is also in the wrong here.


@3: No, she wasn't in the wrong. Marriage is a contract between (in our society) two people, and that contract can mean absolutely anything both partners consent to. But it is near-universally assumed to mean two people who love each other and want to live together and fuck each other, and are going to make a reasonable effort to do so for the rest of their lives. If he wanted it to mean something different, the burden was on him to say so.


SAD, I am really sorry, especially if the idea of being married to one person while fucking others wasn’t something you would otherwise find interesting. Your husband has done and continues to do a shitty thing to you. Lame only begins to capture his behavior. It must be hard to comprehend how your husband could prefer to masturbate than fuck you, a young, attractive woman who is in his bed every night. I hope the attention you have been receiving keeps reminds you that you are sexually desirable, even as your husband treats you as if you’re not. So don’t hesitate and don’t ask for permission, tell your husband that until he’s fucking you three time a week, instead of masturbating to porn, you’re going to fuck whomever you want.


@5 - Adultry with a child on the way is not the answer. She can divorce him after the kid is 18 and out of the house.


@6 - Unhappily staying in a marriage for a child leads to unhappy children.

-Signed, a happy child of a reasonable divorce


@5: Can we accept that having a lower or a higher sex drive is not a shitty thing to do?

Can we also accept that if you know your partner isn't into sex, and you marry him anyway, and then get upset that he STILL isn't into sex, that the person who is being shitty is the LW?

For whatever reason, the husband does not want to have sex with another human being. That is his natural state. For whatever reason, LW would like to have lots more sex. That is her natural state.

That two people whose natural states are not compatible decided to get married is a responsibility they share equally - especially in this case where it was known to LW that her future husband had a low sex drive prior to marriage. LW now expecting her husband to be someone she knew he is not is the shitty act here.

The husband is only being shitty if he does not want to have sex with LW AND will not allow LW to have sex on her own.


DTMFA. 3x/yr will become 0x/yr quickly. Even if you are getting some on the side you will eventually get unhappy at the continuous inexplicable rejection, and then he will get unhappy, and then you will have unhappy children at least until you divorce (if not longer).

-Signed, an unhappy child of an unhappy divorce.


Did anyone else think it was weird that she mentioned getting pregnant, but did not mention the child? Dan assumed one exists, because otherwise, why not just divorce? But there are other outcomes of pregnancy. Also, her stage of pregnancy/parenting seems relevant.


Did anyone notice they were in a ldr and got pregnant? And then married. I wonder how much time they spent in the same house prior to the wedding.


I've been in sexless relationships, and relationships where my partner watches so much porn they assume that's what sex should be like by dropping hints like, "you should do porn." Both were absolutely unfulfilling. Sex has become so taboo that even talking to our significant others about it seems forbidden. If it's a struggle even to talk to the other person involved then it's time to move on before it just becomes a topic for resentment.


What a sad letter. I hope things got better for both of them, however that happened.


@6 - Are you seriously suggesting that this person with a high sex drive should put that aside for the next 18 years? WTF?


I wonder if dude wasn't beating off to something... er... unusual that he felt he couldn't share with his wife. I realize it's nearly a decade too late for advice, but if it's a fetish she could live with, maybe an open conversation and some GGG-ness could save this marriage. If it's something she absolutely can't live with and/or can't do (gay porn, pedophilia), she should DTMFA.


@5/Raindrop: Funny, adultery is rarely used word these days. Of course, you couldn’t speak of cheating, at least as that word is commonly understood, because I was clear that SAD should be open about having sex with other men.

@8/biggie: “Can we accept that having lower or a higher sex drive is not a shitty thing to do?” Sure, I suppose, but since jerking off to porn three times a week is per se evidence that Mr. Sad does not have a low libido, I think we should also agree that masturbating to porn rather than fucking your spouse who is desperate for sex is a shittty thing to do. Low libido is not having a sexual impulse, and not, as you then write, about preferring to fuck your hand while watching videos of other men and women fucking, rather than fucking the person to whom your married.

Lastly, you misinterpreted SAD’s letter, before marriage she was monogamous with Mr. Sad in a long-distance relationship, which was the cause of her not getting laid. She was unaware that Mr. Sad would rather jerk off than fuck her. “Early on, it didn't bother me much—infrequent sex is common in long-distance relationships.”


@15 That’s what I wondered too. Is he gay? You absolutely can have a low sex drive and not be gay...but sometimes an artificially low sex drive is a hint that there’s a desire not being met.

That said, he’s only beating off 3x a week. That’s fairly low for his age. Maybe get his T checked? Is he overweight, lethargic, lazy or depressed? Or is this just him? This should have been thought about before you got preggers (birth control is a shared responsibility).


@15 and @17: Yup, something is available online that she isn't. It could be:
1. Dudes,
2. Centaurs or kiddie porn, or
3. just some boring foot fetish or light bondage or Madonna/Whore complex that he is too ashamed of.
If 1, then her self-esteem will get hammered by the lifelong rejection while he's jacking off and eventually hooking up ILR. Lots of women in the Straight Spouse Network got knocked up from very infrequent sex with a closet case.
If 2, they'll both always be frustrated unless she willing to role play the part and he squints his eyes a lot.
If, hopefully, it's scenario 3, and she engages him in whatever mild kink he has then maybe they live happily ever after.
The emotional and STD bullets she might dodge if it's 1, the hopelessness of 2, and the potential solutions if 3, all give her license to snoop enough to figure out what porn gets him off. She'd then be better informed about trying to make it work, leaving, or leaving quickly.


I think the whole "fucking other people in the hopes that it'll make hubby jealous" is a terrible idea. Either be ok with your open relationship for what it is, or divorce and co-parent. Since he'd rather fuck his own hand than fuck her, it seems fair that he be ok with her fucking other people as well. Of course, the Venn Diagram circles between "seems fair" and "what people are actually ok with in their marriage" don't precisely overlap.

Good Luck, LW.


@1 - what you said! yes, people do get married and don't have sex. But it does have to be mutually agreed upon beforehand.


1, three times a year is below the bar. Needs to be more between you - license to bang other people will not resolve your issue, because it seems apparent that it isn't the sex itself, but that you don't feel valued by your husband as a sex object.

2, disagree with Dan, that's no way sex is so infrequent because the dude is selfish. He's got an unaddressed issue/complex/anxiety about sex, but he's not withholding because he doesn't want to share. 99% he was molested as a child and keeps all his negative feelings on the inside.

I don't see this improving without putting your cards on the table: the relationship will not survive if this is the sex frequency. Whatever he needs to do to bring that up to an acceptable level, he'll have to do. Therapy, ecstasy, whatever.


Mr Savage's last paragraph is pure LMB.


From the letter: "He would still rather jack off to porn."

My conclusion: The problem isn't an incontrovertible mismatch in libido. The problem isn't that he can only get off on porn. The problem is that he doesn't see this as a problem. That's what has Dan concluding that the guy is selfish.

My advice: Sex with others is one possibility. Divorce is another possibility.

But how about counseling and getting him on board with trying a no-porn fast for a while and seeing if that rekindles an interest in sex with actual people? You know the way Dan has recommended retraining dicks that have become too used to the death grip? Why not try that for the guy who is too used to porn? Or maybe they watch porn together for a few minutes until he's hard, and then the screen is turned off and he's left with his wife to finish?

The letter is 9 years old. SAD, please tell us what happened.


I'm not sure she can talk to him in a spirit of anything other than blame. This is preventing him from confessing to guilt or shame at only being able to get off to porn.

It’s also preventing them from having the conversation--if this is necessary--where he consents to her opening their marriage.


I tried to find the original to see if the LW wrote in on those comments, but when I went to the date listed, this was the SLLOTD.

Anybody know where original letter is?


First letter here:


Through the lens of #metoo, I'm wondering whether she got pregnant via rape (as in she raped him). She describes their infrequent sex as "quasi-forced." Hmm. Anyway, this letter is nearly a decade old, so I'm hoping she got out soon, she and Mr Asexual were great co-parents to their kid, and she went on to find an enthusiastic lover or several.

Fresh @10: Hmm, yes, good point.


I’ve never understood why people equate masturbation with sex when describing libido. For me they are such different experiences with such different motivations as to be entirely separate activities. If I’m hot for someone I can come by myself 5 times before seeing him and still want to fuck him. Alternatively there have been lower libido times in my life when the thought of being touched by someone is is skin-crawlingly offputting but I’m still masturbating daily.


Thanks, Reg.


@28/SomethingElse: At least for heterosexual men, masturbation tends to decrease markedly when partnered with a women with whom they are having sex several times per week. It doesn’t go to zero, since no one touches you like yourself, and porn offers sexual variety in a monogamous relationship. Conversely, many women report that regular sex during a relationship either leaves their interest in masturbation unchanged or increases their amount of masturbation.

So if you happen to be a woman, your experience are fairly typical.


Sublime @30: Wait, what? I'm female and I rarely masturbate if I'm getting regular sex. In my experience (and quite a few SL letters) it's men who continue to masturbate even when they're in relationships, often to the chagrin of the women who'd rather be fucking them. So I don't think we can draw gender-based generalisations here. It stands to reason that most -people- masturbate less if they are getting release through partnered sex. But they are indeed different things, so the extent to which availability of sex affects masturbation frequency differs by person, not by gender.


@31 cont, the only gender-based difference is that men (usually) ejaculate when they masturbate, and ejaculation can affect one's ability to ejaculate again or get an erection soon thereafter. Again, mileage varies by individual. A woman can masturbate several times and still want to fuck, as SomethingElse says, probably because all that masturbating did little to scratch the itch that sex fulfills. Which is probably why it's women who write in to complain that their partners are masturbating instead of fucking them, and men don't.


I'm wondering if they would benefit from some sex positive therapy for a short period to see if the husband can transition from solo sex to partnered sex. He just may need to be retrained. As Dan has pointed out about death grip syndrome this may be a case of the husband not getting satisfaction from partnered sex, mostly because he beats off all the time. If he is unwilling to give it a try then I would agree with Dan about getting sex elsewhere or leaving him.


"We started out as friends and soon began a long-distance relationship, until I got pregnant." This says to me the marriage was not for love but for some (puritan?) belief that if one gets pregnant it is what should happen. LDR seemed to work because he clearly has an easier time getting off alone than with someone else. I'm not sure how compatible LR actually is with this guy. DTMFA

Hmmm... "originally posted March 24, 2009"

Would love an update. Hopefully it all worked out for her.


@30/31 Yes I’m a woman and what SublimeAfterglow says is compatible with my experience - either the same or more masturbation when having regular partnered sex. @BiDanFan this “It stands to reason that most -people- masturbate less if they are getting release through partnered sex” is not my experience at all. Masturbation is either meeting a completely different need (so no change) or is in response to increased sexual thoughts as a result of more sex. Basically I have a baseline need for masturbation that is completely unaffected by partnered sex and the more sex I have the more of it I want, so increase in sex can increase my need for masturbation. No idea what’s typical, though I think I have heard before that this is not unusual for women.


This is what happens when you marry someone that you don’t know at all. I’m curious. That “infrequent sex” you mentioned must have been because of the separation imposed by the LDR right? ‘Cause if you fucked once, reluctantly, during your weekends together and then nothing, you should have got a clue. Anyway, no matter what, I can’t believe this was totally hidden from you, but you STILL got married. I can understand that, though, as a mix of hoping for the best with a heaping helping of wishful thinking. But now. Reality. Unless you can negotiate an open marriage, get a divorce. DO NOT sentence yourself to a future of no sex! Divorce is not the end of the world. You can go on. Your child can go on. It will be a challenge, and there will be hurdles to overcome, but the same can be said for being married to a guy who DOES NOT fit with you sexually. Get while the getting is going to inflict a minimum of damage to a baby who hasn’t had 15 years of “nuclear” family. Love that baby. Hopefully dad will love that baby too. Do the loving together, but the living separately.


@27 i think that's evidence that there's limits to how far you can push the definition of rape. Sure, she pressured him into having sex until he caved... but where's the real harm?

@30 Masturbation decreases because an overwhelming majority of women consider male masturbating to be a form of cheating, disrespect, or otherwise unseemly, and most partnered men go through great lengths to hide what masturbation they engage in which, when you have a partner, necessitates less masturbation. I wonder if this phenomenon exists between gay men in committed relationships.


@31 & 32/BiDanFan: I trust that sexual surveys are a more accurate representation of people’s actual sexual activity, than the letters written by people expressing sexual dysfunction. You can choose to believe this or not, but that is what is generally reported by men and women.


Something @35: Interesting, sexual variety is indeed infinite!

Sportlandia @37: "where's the real harm?"
In rape!? I'm not even going to bother. Wow.
(Leaving the emotional damage aside, some might call an unintentional baby that led to an unhappy marriage "real harm.")

"Masturbation decreases because an overwhelming majority of women consider male masturbating to be a form of cheating, disrespect, or otherwise unseemly"
Uh, I'd like to read the sexual survey where you got this from. You could phrase it as "men believe that the overwhelming majority of women..." and that would be fair enough. But just because YOU feel you need to hide your masturbation from your partner doesn't mean that she is judging you for it, or if she is, that tells you anything about "an overwhelming majority of women" -- just the overwhelming majority of women YOU'VE dated. In my equally unscientific view, women masturbate less in relationships because they are getting at least some of their sexual urges satisfied by their partners. Women to whom this applies (which I now know there are many exceptions, thanks Something and Sublime) project and think that if they were satisfying their man, he too would feel less need to masturbate. The solution, Sportlandia, is obviously for you to find one of these women who masturbates more when partnered, then you'd feel less shame and need to hide it. (Which can't be so hard that it actually reduces your masturbating -- she showers daily, surely; doesn't interrupt when you're in the bathroom doing your other business; and sometimes goes to work or otherwise has a life? With phones, there's no longer even any need to hide a collection of porn mags.)

Sublime @38: Got a link to the survey you're referring to? I'm not one of the commenters who refuses to believe direct evidence contrary to one of my assumptions, just saying.


Watch porn too often isn't a good idea. It leads to certain problems


It strikes me that Something and Sportlandia may have been talking about two different situations: being partnered and cohabiting and being partnered but not cohabiting. I've heard that some women are capable of essentially shutting down their sex drive when it has no target (partner or serious crush). So it would make sense that they would masturbate less when single, and then masturbate more when they met a non-cohabiting partner who awakened their libido but whom they only see once or twice a week, and then, most likely, masturbate less after they move in with that partner and have daily opportunities for sex. Personally, I would choose to have sex instead of masturbate 10 times out of 10 if sex [with a desired partner] were a possibility, but I understand others are different. It's understandable if someone preferred to masturbate, say, 2 times out of 10 that their partner wanted sex. Going back to the letter, Mr SAD is choosing to masturbate 10 times out of 10. If this is one's preference, one should remain single or only date (other) asexuals.

To Sporty's point, a man would not have any need to hide his masturbation from a non-cohabiting partner, but he might choose to do so to "save up" his libido for her. (I've certainly had male partners who've told me, "I didn't masturbate today because I knew I was going to see you.") So at least some guys reduce their masturbation happily and willingly, given what they are getting in return.

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