Yeah to bi sexual Twitter.
I agree with Dan, LW, get new friends.

LW, hang out on autostraddle.com. It's not a dating site but it is very welcoming. There are lots of people there who are bi women married to cishet dudes who have never been with a woman but we know perfectly well who we are, thankyousomuch. Might not get you laid right off but will be good for your soul.

Hearing about the L-dub's experiences with her holier than thou 'friends' makes me so glad to not be young any more. With age, you become more comfortable with yourself (usually/hopefully), you care less about others' judgement (again usually/hopefully), and you filter out the self righteous assholes from your life. Good luck on all three L-dub! Bisexual Twitter for the win!

Great work, Dan. And good luck to the letter writer.

If you are a bi-woman wondering if another woman is bi, you can ask her "Brad Pitt or Johnny Depp?", and if she says "Johnny Depp", you're in! Doesn't work as well on the under-35 crowd though; if the respondent is 35+ and says "Neither!" they're a lesbian, but if they're under 35 they could just mean, "Eeeew, those dudes are old!"

But serious advice from a person with a few 'traditionally attractive' bi female friends who have shared their dating stories:

First, if you have guy friends, ask them if any of their exes or other female friends were into girls. If the answer is in the affirmative, you can be direct and ask for an introduction, or covert and try and end up at the same social function or possibly reach out on social media. (Don't be creepy! Comment on something they posted, don't just message asking if they want to get down!)

You might also tell your friends they can tell women about you. I've mentioned "my really cool friend who is into women" and received phone numbers to pass on. If you're great friends with them make sure they have a picture to show. (Actual friends, don't do this with your "nice guy" friends, or with guy friends who make women uncomfortable, because they'll just be trying to set up the threesome.)

If that's not an option, or in addition to....

Tinder, Bumble, and OkCupid will let you set your profile as a woman seeking a woman, and you can put "I'm Bi!" right at the top to ward off the judgy lesbians. But, at least 50% of the profiles you interact with will be guys pretending to be women, and another 30% will be couples with female profiles. (Hint: If you have a few representative photos on your profile but they are asking for more photos, it's a dude!) You can also sift through the fakes quicker if you demand video chat. Obviously, don't give out your (real) phone number. Or social media. Or any other method of contact you can't toss and move on from.

All that said, the MOST success my bi female friends have had...?

Arrangement sites, as a sugar momma. Why? Because there are SO few sugar mommas relative to sugar babies that creepy guys don't bother trying to make fake profiles there. Bonus: No lesbians!

Make sure you put right at the top of your profile that you are NOT offering support, which will filter out the sex workers (although sex workers is also an option!), and you'll find there's still plenty of women left who would be more than happy to spend time with another bi woman, including other women who are just sick of trying to weed through the same creeps hitting you up for threesomes.

A downside is the monthly subscription is much higher than other sites, but that's also how they filter out the rif-raf. Assuming you're in a moderately populated area, you'll probably have more pussy than you know what to do with in the first month, so it should also be a one-time expense.

Just make sure you're absolutely clear up-front that you're not offering support (although taking a girl out to dinner never hurt) and I guarantee you'll have a nice girl who doesn't care about your inexperience in between your thighs in no time.

Dan, maybe we can come up with something bi women who are into bi women can do or wear or.... some other sign or code word question that doesn't involve a vest, and is more current than "Brad or Johnny?"

"Do you run with scissors?"

Come to think of it Dan, why didn't you suggest to LW that she just hire a Pro?

@5 biggie: Most people I know would say no to Johnny Depp, he's an abusive asshole with a drug and alcohol problem.

@6 LW here. I actually considered it, but it's illegal where I live, and I'm not looking to get deported for soliciting a sex worker. My mom would disapprove.

I don't have any dating advice, but rather advice if you're looking to socialize with other LGBTQ people outside of your circle of friends. Your current "friends" sound toxic and not worth any mental or emotional energy you're expending.

Focus on an interest you have and look into the LGBTQ-centric groups within that interest. Just as an example, I play video games, and there are groups and forums of LGBTQ players that are open and welcoming. They're not going to bash your for being bi, or question your legitimacy; the general attitude is that "we're in this together." With respect to video games, this comes from the fact that these players have to fight for representation, can commiserate or rejoice over this or that developer choice, and be around other like-minded players.

Alternative choice is Fwbdr, many bisexual women there. http://bit.ly/fwbdr-fwb

I believe (and some of the Twitter-commenters seem to confirm it) that "experimenting" is kind of a triggering word for monosexual gay/lesbians. I remember Dan himself saying (a long time ago when he was less bi-friendly than he is now) "I don't want to get my heart broken by being someone's 'experiment'" or words to the same effect.

So it's probably best to avoid using that word in your dating life with women

@11 Yeah, that was a VERY poor choice of words on my part and not wat I meant to imply at all! I'm not looking to breezily fool around and find out if maybe I'm bi or whatever. I know I am and want to reclaim a part of me that I was forced to hide away and ignore for decades. I want to feel like ME again.

But absolutely, point taken, and thanks for flagging it! I will definitely avoid using that word and any others that might imply I would treat people frivolously or cruelly. I would feel awful if I found out I had hurt someone who trusted me enough to sleep with me. Nobody deserves that.

@Clementine Danger: I would elide the issue of your sexual experience. Not long ago, a 30 year-old, straight female letter writer asked whether she needed to tell a man before sex that she was a virgin. While there were mixed opinions, plenty of commenters suggested that it wasn't necessary to tell anyone that she had reached the age of 30 and was a virgin. If it is reasonable to withhold that information, then surely it is reasonable to suggest you not get to specific about your experience with women to a potential female sex partner. That said, you've kissed and masturbated/been masturbated by women, so you are sexually experienced with women, and have stories you can share if need be, should a potential partner asks about your experiences. In that case, you don't have to lie, just focus on those things that you have explored, but if really pressed, yes, lie about your experience.

Also, many people feel a degree of nervousness the first time they have sex with a new partner, so any additional awkwardness you feel arising from your level of experience with women, may not be that noticeable to your sex partner.

Once you are in the moment, I don't think any woman will question the bi credentials of a woman enthusiastically eating pussy.

@5 biggie.. why Johnny Depp? Liking a sleaze bag drunk like johnny proves you have no taste in men, not that you’re a bi woman.

NF, your experience echoes mine, though I was in your shoes 20 years ago when there was no OKCupid. There are still bi meetup groups out there, that's how I met my first female partners. And you have the advantage of being single! No, you don't have to accept male partners as the price of admission. I'd give the same advice as I would a whole-virgin: don't advertise the virginity. Say you don't have much experience with women; that's true, and exceptionally common among us bi gals. I agree that unfortunately, most lesbians won't be interested. Top tip: Get an OKCupid profile and hide it from straight people, then you won't be inundated by men. And YOU do the approaching. Don't wait for women to come to you, because both online and in real life, we are notorious for hanging back and waiting for the other person to make the first move. Good luck! (Any chance you are in the UK? Hee hee)

Biggie @5: Really? Not all bi women have the same taste in men. It would be far more effective to ask, "are you into girls?" Glad you've clarified that wasn't serious! In my observation, the signal women use to advertise their queerness is a shaved side of the head. Sadly, that's not a look that works for me, so I remain stealth... A bi flag lapel pin works too.

Hi, Clementine @8! I understand, there are many reasons not to want to hire a sex worker. If you're like most women, the knowledge that someone does not actually desire you is an absolute turn-off. That's why I haven't gone the sex worker route, no matter how scarce pussy seems to be sometimes.

Sublime @13: "you've ... masturbated/been masturbated by women"
Clementine is here and can speak for herself, but that is absolutely NOT what I would interpret as "heavy petting," because you're correct -- in the sapphic world, that IS sex; she would not be a virgin if she had done these things. I interpreted "heavy petting" as more than the sort of drunken dance floor snogs one gets from straight women: breast groping, fully clothed grinding and maybe crotch grabs. Enough to be sure you dig it, not enough to say you've had sex.

What is with all Clementine’s.. hi @12.. friends’ reactions, Fan? I don’t get this whole purity bit around women coming out as bi. Sounds very unsupportive to a friend who feels what she feels.

Lava @17: Having seen both sides, I get it. Clementine indeed feels what she feels, but there are in fact a lot of "bi-curious" women who only want to appear cool and edgy, so they flirt with you outrageously in public but never want to take things further. Or they "experiment" with you (I agree Clementine shouldn't use this word), then dump you and go back to men. No wonder lesbians and other bi women are wary, although having been there, it does suck to be sure of your sexuality and not believed. (And you internalise it -- which is what I've been trying to get across about the importance of "exploring" to confirm one's orientation, because one DOES doubt it until one has the experience, thanks to these pervasive "you're not a real bi" messages.) It's just a stage to get past, and other bi women who've been there will be a lot more sympathetic.

The comment about bisexuality being a privilege relates to the perception that we can choose to hide in a straight closet and date men while lesbians must come out and face the consequences. It ignores that a closet is still a closet and we are not straight, and it is painful to be presumed straight when you desperately want to embrace your full self. Again, I'd urge Clementine to find specifically bi groups, where others will relate to her "whining" and she won't just feel marginalised by a different group.

Ms Fan - Exactly. There should be more bi-exclusive (or bi-specific, if you prefer) spaces, where only bi people get to set the norms. I did try to get a Bi Community Centre going about thirty years ago, but it was either too expensive or seen as not politically expedient.

Fair enough Fan @18, if the woman is a potential interest. For friends to be so dismissive.. ignore these people Clementine, around this part of yourself. Find new people who will hear and support and not judge you. And as Fan said, explore these attractions.

Hi Clementine! Finding bi community really helped me. I agree with @2 - AutoStraddle.com is a fantastic website, very bi inclusive. They have local FB groups and meetups. Finding bi+ community might not get you laid immediately, but it will help in the long run. Good luck! You’re not alone. You’ll find other bi+ women who think you’re hot.

Question for the ladies here who sleep with other ladies. How often have you dated a gal who experienced sexual attraction to other women, but who was so used to the effort that men put into approaching and wooing that she wound up de facto straight because being able to be passive was more important to her than being able to be with another girl? I ask this because, from what I see, trendy bi has all but vanished but passive bi is still a thing. And since some lesbians are still understandably gun shy about starting things with a bi girl, I'd really like the idea to be out there so they can focus on the passivity angle instead of the bi angle or think that trendy bi is sill a thing.

As to Clementine, out of curiosity, where are you now? I can give advice form my perspective (which happens to come from a large, decently cosmopolitan U.S. city), but I'm aware that somewhere more traditional will likely have a bunch more obstacles in place. Assuming you're somewhere that more quietly bi people can still put up a dating profile and not be too scandalous, all I can do is repeat things that have been said above. You're allowed, even encouraged, to look preferentially for women and to fill out whatever data fields support that statement. If the app insists on calling you a lesbian for that, you're free to use the better settings for yourself and clarify elsewhere. You aren't obligated to lead with the fact that you've never been with another woman. The bulk of your romantic life was spent in two long term monogamous relationships (that happened to be with men), and that information isn't any more relevant than discussing romantic history while dating a man would be. And do keep in mind that you'll need to learn how to be more proactive and grow a thick skin for when things don't work out. These are just facts of life for people who date women.

@ChiTodd: In my experience it's not that being passive is important somehow, it's the "straight" training that's hard to shake. I'm a very forward and active sort of person, but A LOT of straight guys are turned off and slightly intimidated by a woman who shows overt interested. Like me, they also grew up in a society that encourages a madonna/whore dichotomy and attaches a lot of misogynistic ideas to both. It's not that I enjoy being passive and being approached (I really don't, I'm much too impatient and direct), it's that it's usually the best route to take if you actually want to meet someone. (Dr. Nerdlove writes about this a lot, he's got some clever things to say about the whole issue of who approaches who, I'd recommend his column very highly.)

So speaking just for me, I've been completely trained out of approaching straight men. It never works out outside of the occasional hookup. Not for me at least. The passivity is due to social training, not any innate desire to be approached and not put in effort. [/mytwocents]

And the heroes of Bisexual Twitter already hooked me up with bi+ organizations in my area! It's pretty goddamn amazing how quickly they rallied to help me. I'm eternally grateful.

Oh, and a note about my friends: I'm no longer in contact with the person who accused me of "whining" about my "bisexual privilege". I told her she hurt me by saying that and she doubled down and got even more aggressive, so she's no longer in my life. But my current best friend heard me out, agreed that what she said was cruel, apologized for it and has done her very best to accept my sexuality and regain my trust. She's a genuinely decent person who has her own painful and exclusionary experiences and some deep hurt about bisexual women that's private and I won't share here. Bottom line, she does genuinely care about me and is deeply sorry she said that to me when she saw how much it hurt. It's the sort of thing that our friendship can survive, if it's up to me. I won't be discussion my sexuality with her anymore for a while, but there's a lot more to our friendship than that.

Hi Clementine,

Have you considered swingers clubs? I'm honestly surprised no one has mentioned this. In my experience, swingers clubs are teeming with bi women; both partnered and single. Single men are either severely limited or not permitted at all, and couples seeking threesomes are quite respectful and held to a very high standard of conduct by the club's rules (and ideally, security force).

Hell, it's just a safer alternative for all women seeking to have some casual play. Way safer than dating randos. No having to go to some stranger's house, consent is strictly enforced, and no one can try any funny business or unsafe sex practices lest they get booted out on their ass & forever banned from the club.

If it's strictly sexual experience with women you seek, this could be an option.

I think it's because people who are older can remember when Depp was a very pretty young man- like 21 Jump Street era. My guess is that the flip side is Fight Club era Brad Pitt- because he's a manly man? So a straight woman would find him attractive?

I don't see too much difference between the two of them, and it's immature to judge someone's sexuality by which 90s Hollywood white boys they think is cutest omg squeal. Sophisticated and mature people know the real determinant is if you prefer Jason Momoa in a superhero costume or Oscar Isaac in eyeliner.

@EmmaLiz, offtopic, sorry, but just in case you missed it, here's a late reply to a question you asked: https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/01/16/38025082/marriage-kids-furry-porn-and-the-price-of-admission/comments/61

Dear Clementine
In case you are open to ethically non-monogamous relationships: in my experience, the poly community (in Europe) is extremely bi-friendly and a great majority of women in it are openly and unashamedly bi. It even has non-negligible numbers of openly bi men. Yay to bi-friendliness!
Have fun in your new adventures!

@7 @14 @16: Ok so this was a running joke among a group of friends 10-15 years ago. Anecdotally, it seemed to actually work at the time. But...

@7: You're right, I forgot that Johnny Depp had revealed himself as a sleazebag in the past decade, so the reason it wouldn't work now isn't that the younger crowd doesn't know who he is, but that everyone does.

@14: Right, think more 2005 Johnny Depp.

@16: Of course not everyone has the same taste in men. But it really did work 'back in the day'. Sure you could just ask if someone is into girls, but maybe you want to have a good idea if they're into girls before you've gotten to the point where it's socially acceptable to inquire about someone's orientation, or before you want to make an advance, which such a question can be interpreted as.

Will note that a good portion of the women I know with shaved side of head are straight and just like dealing with less hair, and most bi women I know don't have that look, so that doesn't work either.

Anyway, regret putting the joke up top, as the rest of the comment was serious advice... LW really should try the arrangement site route.

EmmaLiz@26, never got off on Johnny and I’d say Brat Pitt is much more feminine than Depp.
Yes. Old(er) Men now. Maybe fifteen yrs ago there needed to be coded questions biggie @29, though I’m still not clear why a bi woman would prefer Depp to Pitt.

@30: I can't tell you why, I can only tell you that it proved to be true over a fairly large sample size at the time.

Thinking about stupid hats that people buy in DC, I bought an FBI hat in the 90s, immediately became bored with it, so I decide I'd just pull the embroidery and have a plane black cap. After pulling the F off, I saw I had a hat that just said BI, a little off center. I still have it, I wore it all the time. People assumed that it was some sort of anti-federal government statement, and I would still have to tell them that I'm bi. I know coming out is a process, and not an event, but being bisexual, the process never ends, and you have to repeatedly come out to the same people multiple times.

I'm actually laughing a lot at the whole Pitt/Depp thing because as a teen every girl in school was fawning over Pitt and I just could. not. see it. He just looked like a hairy disheveled meathead to me. Not like pre-scumbag smooth pretty boy Depp. So yeah, couldn't tell you why, but add me as a data point.

@33 I've come out to my parents FIVE. FUCKING. TIMES. My mom did the whole weepy "where did we go wrong" thing every time. And I guarantee you that if I ever started dating a woman long-term, they would still be shocked. Shocked! People who have known me for years still looked confused when I talk about past crushes with female names. It never fucking ends. I guess part of me (a small, bad part that I'm not listening to) wants a girlfriend just so everyone will get it through their fucking heads that I'm not straight! Please believe me! Of course then new friends will assume I'm a lesbian and the whole hideous process starts all over again in the other direction. UGH. I've got a lot of anger about this.

Clementine @34: I so hear you on that, too! I also had it in my head that I had to have at least one "serious" relationship with a woman to "prove" that I was both bisexual and biromantic, not just a curiosity seeker, not just an up-for-threeways hedonist. The sad news is that 20+ years later, I have still not had a "serious" relationship with a woman. But I've had enough short-term ones that I no longer give a shit if anyone questions my orientation. Similar situation with the parents, too. In my early 30s I ended up in a monogamous LTR with a man, and when we split, my mother started talking about me dating men, always men. I had to tell her, you know I'm still bi and dating women too. Yup, again the gnashing of the teeth. UGH indeed!

(As an aside, was I correct about what you meant by "heavy petting"? Post @16.)

Yes, you were correct about that. Basically I have never directly touched labia/girl dick or vice versa, if we have to get into specifics. No partnered orgasms have been had. It's been clothed groping, kissing, top fondling, that kind of thing. Enough to know what I want. I did the thing in high school where me and some girl friends got together for "experimenting" (I know, that word, but that's 100% what it was and what we called it) but they kind of chickened out. Which is good, because obviously enthusiastic consent is important, but I learned a lot about myself when I realized how deeply disappointed I was.

@BDF: Just an off the cuff thought. But have you ever tried going to a lesbian bar just to chat some people up? I've recommended something similar to shy boys; get them to talk to girls, not with the goal of picking them up or anything else, but just to get used to approaching and talking. The vibe there won't perfectly match the vibe at a lesbian bar, but there's a lot of value to awkward approaches now so that future approaches can be less awkward.

Clementine @36: I would call what (sometimes) happens at slumber parties -- along with what mixed-gender pairs of children do when playing doctor -- "experimenting." That is miles away from adult sex, as we all know! But yes, early clues that this is inclination rather than curiosity. They all seem so clear in the rear-view mirror.

ChiTodd @37: Have I, personally? Yes. Do you want to talk about me or do you want to talk about general trends and tendencies? I agree there is value in making oneself approach people just for practice. Great advice. The difference between your two hypotheticals is that when you are a bisexual at a lesbian bar, you are painfully conscious that to many (if not most) you are a wolf among sheep. Most boys don't approach women with the knowledge that they have a invisible dealbreaker just below their surface. And much has been said about the other difference, being that boys have no choice: they learn to approach or they stay single. Boys know that they are expected to approach. Girls have never been expected to approach; some of us do anyway, but it doesn't come naturally, and we -do- have a choice: dither until some guy steps up. Not a choice that leads to successful sapphic pairings, but there you go; most people take their easiest course of action in any given scenario. Online dating is a godsend; there is a lot less at stake psychologically in sending a message that may not be replied to, and there is no fear that you will approach someone, she will be interested, then reject you for being bi -- you just put bi in your profile, job done.

SublimeAfterglow @13 "I don't think any woman will question the bi credentials of a woman enthusiastically eating pussy"

As a straight woman who has tried to eat pussy, aren't there some skills involved? A learning process? Maybe the swinger scene or setting up threesomes would be a good way to build up one's skills in that area, if that's easier to find than 1-on-1 dates?

Wow, what's with these (presumably) late-twenty-something/early-thirty-something friends of Clementine acting like shitty high-schoolers? In my experience, people generally stop faking a sexuality for shock value - and accusing others of doing so - well before age 30.

It just occurred to me that perhaps gender essentialism is a contributing factor to people not accepting bisexuality. If you have an intrinsically gendered worldview, maybe you see sexuality as necessarily gendered, so you can understand same-sex monovalent attraction, but not ungendered or polyvalent gendered attraction. I'd be curious if there was a population-level correlation, though that wouldn't necessarily prove causation.

@EricaP #39: I wouldn't say there's any standard set of skills for any particular kind of sex other than communication and attentiveness - there are subsets of people who like similar things, but any given partner isn't necessarily going to like what another person liked. In my experience, more people than not are generally bad at sex than generally good at sex, exactly because they have hangups about talking about the sex they're having.

I like these tips from lesbians on how they have sex for the first time with a new woman:
https://www.cosmopolitan.com/sex-love/news/a38815/lesbians-draw-their-best-cunnilingus-tips-and-the-result-is-amazing/

EricaP @39: The golden rule applies here! Do unto others what you like done to you. That may not be universal, but it's a good starting point. If she's not reacting the way you would, ASK HER to guide you. Sublime is right that it is enthusiasm that's important. Be honest about not having much experience; better to be with someone who admits they don't know what they're doing and is therefore keen to learn than someone cocky, like this guy:
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2018/12/19/37244895/she-wasnt-that-into-him-until-he-said
I'd also add to not take it personally if she doesn't come. She may be nervous; she may require a specific type of stimulation that she finds it hard to articulate. Don't jump to the conclusion that you're hopeless at eating pussy and may as well give up -- practice does make perfect!

@13. clementine. I think online as well. Many 'scenes' are exclusive and can have a political ax to grind against bi-s. And rightly, in a way: gay communities are carved out at a cost, in the face of crushing heteronormativity. I'm GQ in self-conception, more anatomically male than female, attracted to people of both the main gender designations; it took me until I was well into my mid-forties to have the sex I'd fantasised about all my life. Over thirty years. You're not too old, not too inexperienced; find and make your own community and don't be dragged down by others' misunderstanding!

@41. Erica. This should be published in GQ.

@44 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
"This should be published in GQ"

Men who aren't gay read GQ?

BiDanFan -- I don't enjoy cunnilingus, so the golden rule would suggest I offer them a Hitachi and twist their nipples hard. :) And, no, I'm not going to keep trying to eat pussy. I gave it a shot (several times; several different pussies), but didn't enjoy it and have accepted that about myself.

EricaP @46: Then I'm kind of confused as to why you asked. Anyway, my advice was "general advice to prospective pussy eaters," not you specifically. Feel free to continue being straight. Some people are just born that way, and there's nothing wrong with that. ;)