I had assumed CAEM was Muslim. People raised in Arabic tend to write much more poetically - even for day-to-day things - than modern Americans

Also, Dan, you can defend your response to CAEM with a ton of various, but I think it's clear that to the individual, you caused him more harm than in simply not responding at all.

Regarding the jump-roping gym shorts fella.....
...Dan, you definitely have a 'type'

Yes, but did your husband have hot fantasies about the neighbour LW?
Agree Dan, how dare people keep throwing their God beliefs around like it is fact, as if it is proven that any God(s) exist. Then get all upset when they are challenged, and asked to provide some tangible evidence past that is their Faith. And they are so brainwashed they don’t see how fanciful it is. God, heaven etc.

I feel like the situation of BAWLS is a clear example of someone who is not in "good working order." Yes his response may be a legit reaction to trauma. But it's his responsibility to deal with his shit (ie therapy) so that he can be a good partner to another person. Doesn't mean he has to be perfect, but I think recognizing that his response to conflict is not normal and working with a therapist to unpack that and learn better skills is a bare minimum before asking another person to make a serious emotional investment.

Look, if your mental illness is causing you to act like an asshole to people around you, YOU ARE NOT IN GOOD ENOUGH WORKING ORDER TO DATE. I know, I've been that person. I'm so fucking sick of people trying to insist that other people MUST put up with harm they do because the reasons for it have a clinical description. Work on your shit and get yourself to a point where you're not lashing out at people around you if you want to have functional relationships - mental illness might be a reason, but it's not an excuse.

@2: Sometimes the harm/benefit analysis isn't about the individual, but people in general.

Visualize jumping rope dude wearing this lovely short set instead of those heinous underwear of his
https://www.macys.com/shop/product/i.n.c.-satin-lace-trimmed-cami-shorts-pajama-set-created-for-macys?ID=7060740&CategoryID=59737&sizes=SLEEPWEAR_TYPE!!Pajama%20Sets&swatchColor=Fresh%20Iris#fn=SLEEPWEAR_TYPE%3DPajama%20Sets%26sp%3D1%26spc%3D1235%26searchPass%3DmatchNone%26slotId%3D59

What are you guys so defensive about? I can't think of a single person who has written in here on the issue of mental illness who said you have to put up with other people's behavior. Trying to understand it better doesn't mean you have to decide to tolerate it. I'm astounded that anyone can read a letter from someone who chose to pursue a relationship with someone with BPD and conclude "he's saying we are all obligated to date BPD people no matter what." https://st2.depositphotos.com/1070123/8563/i/950/depositphotos_85637236-stock-photo-strawman-in-farm.jpg

That tweet with Dan as a cartoon picture, he looks like Henry Rollins if Henry Rollins ever smiled like that. That tweet with Dan as a photo, he just looks like Dan, but wtf with all those cheap sunglasses nuns omfg I'm going to have nightmares. Then I think about the fact that they are nuns calling out sexual assault from priests and I'm like, solidarity sisters, but wtf with those cheap sunglasses nuns omfg I'm going to have nightmars ommfg I'm a shit feminist but seriously what woman becomes a nun these days with all the weird sex shit and child abuse that we damn well knows goes down there. Somehow this is an answer to the person hand wringing over thoughts of god too but I'll leave you sober folks to it while I listen to some Black Flag and wonder how if this current generation had a Henry Rollins if we might have fewer incels.

@9 whoa you had a couple of sentence-ending periods there up front and then they went awayyyyy.

@ lol mtn beaver

Reader feedback time right? Guess I'm in a good mood. I saw Dan tweeting this week about the pope's response to the nuns being harassed and assaulted. And here he is now with a bunch of nuns with cheap sunglasses. I assume it's solidarity, and I'm down with the sister act. Have to wonder why they've been a part of that system so long in the first place though.

As for Henry Rollins, don't you think he looks like him in that cartoon pic? Awaayyyy maybe, but I've been wondering who all these atomized horny white suburban dudes need as a role model. Someone that can be positive for them and tell them to clean their room and find an interest without being a regressive ulterior motive attention seeking victim blaming daddy, and that made me think of my own youth, and back then those dudes had a punk scene to join and find a place. Who do they have now? I guess they just jack off and play video games. Sure it's a tangent that is awayyyy but it's on my mind today regarding the much ado about nothing in Toronto and also the news today about the Proud Boys and the Police in Portland. So, free association, starting the weekend with purple stained mouth, but it sucks to be here so you're right, away, away.

There's a national emergency tonight too, more bullshit. Keeps fifty five thousand people in prison though until September at least. More feed tubes up their noses, why not.

You sound a bit disturbed, EmmaLiz. May I suggest you turn off the news, however you get it. Turn on music and look at Art, read some great literature.
Renoir was such a great draftsman, and Delacroix, wow, he was a genius and sounds like he was a sweet man. Unlike that women hating Picasso. You can see it in his work too, empty work.
Art has always helped in times of crisis, and artists forge past the crap to affirm life.
I turn off and tune out, when it all gets too much. Just for a time, to regain some joy.

Dan says:
"People preach at us all day along about how God exists and love us or hates us and believers are emphatic as fuck about what God wants and believers have been popping off at us about God for so long that it's so much background noise." And presumably, Dan, that's not okay. "But, my goodness, the griping when someone says—just as emphatically—that God doesn't exist..." But that is? Be the change you want to see in the world, as the cliché goes. Don't you want young people like CAEM to think that non-believers are better than religious nuts, rather than that we're just as bad?
I glossed over the CAEM letter, but I think better advice for him would have been to ease off his religious addiction slowly, by finding an LGBT-positive church. They are out there.

Good on Dan for printing the letter from the man with the wife with BPD. Not so good on him for not actually -listening-... nor for thinking his and Baby Rae's positions are incompatible. It could both be true that Mr BAWL is not "faking" or manipulating, and that BAWL doesn't have to put up with his outbursts, whatever their cause.

Three-for-three: I don't think Dan can conclude that IUD was asking her hookups to wear condoms and they were complying. It's equally possible that they were winning the "Waa, I don't want to wear a condom" discussion because she didn't have enough "logical" arguments in favour of condoms, and wanted to know if she could make one up. If she were getting through to these morons, she might not have written in. So I agree that better advice would have been, "Don't lie, but stand your ground and don't let these assholes 'logic' you out of taking care of yourself."

TLC @8: "I can't think of a single person who has written in here on the issue of mental illness who said you have to put up with other people's behavior. Trying to understand it better doesn't mean you have to decide to tolerate it." EXACTLY. I nominate you the winner of the long-drawn-out BAWL thread.

Tossing around God beliefs as fact" pro or con, is obnoxious any way you slice it.

Cant we all aspire to be a little better?

If humans didn’t justify their violence with Religion, sure, each to their own private beliefs. You can believe fairies are living at the bottom
your garden or in the Loch Ness monster, for all it’s anybody else’s business.
Religion is the opioid of the masses.

@8 my response was to someone Dan quoted, who claimed to be a mental health professional, who said that his advice to dtmfa wasn't helpful because the bf has trauma. Context can be helpful after the fact, but she was asking for advice on what to do. Knowing why he's being manipulative (maybe) doesn't help her get out of a toxic relationship.

I think both BAWL and CAEM are in emotionally abusive relationships and need to find their way out. In both cases, there are clearly ways out and non-abusive alternatives. Dan's (or my) views on God (or on having hederosexual sex) notwithstanding, these two individuals are in abusive relationships where they have the option of getting out and they should do so as quickly and cleanly. That doesn't make the people perpetrating the emotional abuse fake, but it does mean that the perpetrators should find a way to fix themselves and that it is neither BAWL's or CAEM's responsibility to fix the abuser.

And just to be clear, God is not the abuser. You can have a relationship with God or gods if it helps you pull through the day. It doesn't matter if Dan (or I) think God exists. It does matter if people use THAT relationship to have power to abuse you, though. You need to leave those people and find ones who can be supportive, because it doesn't matter if god exists, it matters that you find healthy relationships in life.

If God does exist and did indeed have a hand in creation, I feel confident saying that God would be displeased about destroying his/her/its work. CAEM should feel confident that he can leave the people abusing him and seek therapy with or without personal belief.

But to all the people who say 'you can't prove god doesn't exist', buzz off. I can easily prove that the literal interpretation of any religious text is self contradictory, and thus any god that might exist expects us to use some other, better tool to evaluate the good and right path through life. I have personally seen and experienced emotional abuse at the hands of people who perported to know the will of god and history is full of more atrocities than good perpetrated by abusers who believed themselves the hand of God. I suspect that Dan has also seen been subject to this absurd and widespread abuse. The existence of some vague higher power is not really at issue here- what is proveably true is that people use a claim on god to perpetrate abuse, and that CAEM is being subjected to this abuse (like so many others) and needs to get away from the abusers (people, not God) and get himself professional help and support from people (not God) who can except him and help him grow. That will mean changing his views on God, but not necessarily abandoning the core idea. To focus on the existence of god is to avoid the core issue an to legitimize the clear abuse that people have perpetrated here.

Anyone is free to say God doesn't exist. That doesn't mean it's a good idea in a given situation, all the same. I came from a repressive evangelical background and struggled a lot with being bisexual, and I can say with assurance that if I'd written a letter like that, "God doesn't exist" wouldn't have been helpful to me. There is so much more going on here, a lot of fear conditioning (never underestimate the horrific prospect of eternal damnation) and worry over losing everyone in your life. It's bewildering, overwhelming, terrifying.

BiDanFan's advice to find a LGBT-friendly house of worship is good, provided it's safe for the LW to do so and there is one nearby. It may well not be possible at the moment, if for example he lives at home. In that case, seek online community. I found the Gay Christian Network (now Q Christian Fellowship) helpful to me. My journey has taken me further away from religion, but I do still believe in God, and there are plenty of faithful adherents who also accept non-heterosexuality.

I think the most important thing to say in this situation is, "You are not alone. You're not the first person in this situation, and here are some people who have resolved their lives in healthy ways." Online communities can be great for this.

"God doesn't exist," on the other hand - well, just because you CAN say something doesn't mean you SHOULD.

@8 TheLastComment

"What are you guys so defensive about? I can't think of a single person who has written in here on the issue of mental illness who said you have to put up with other people's behavior."

I've endured far too much based on the myth that I could "fix" people, wasted the best years of my life enabling human train wrecks who had no incentive to get better so long as being a wreck kept me with them.

I've seen far too many friends suffer because they were deluded into thinking that enduring abuse helps abusers get better.

Maybe we have a visceral reaction because we've seen and felt the hurt this mentality causes.

Baby @17: Well said.

I disagree VP @19, it’s because the whole belief in a god or gods interferes and defines the world for us all. The Christians think they know what’s up as do the Muslims as do all the others. Then they use this belief in some intangible entity to write laws, which effect us all, to start wars and persecute religious groups.
I respect a person’s right to believe in whatever the hell they want to, as long as their beliefs don’t dictate laws which effect me. Which is always, esp in the US. There you couldn’t be a non Christian and be POTUS, look at how they went after Obama. Saying he was the other religion.
Countries use these religions to oppress people, and until that stops I will say loud and clear, that to me religious beliefs are as pathetic as belief in Santa. All made up bull.

This letter writer didn’t ask for Dan’s compassion or want any real help. It was from an arrogant young man full of himself and Dan cut thru his pretensions by calling him out.

I believe Jesus and Buddha existed, only know the history of these two, as men of great compassion, men who gained considerable insight and taught of love and acceptance for other sentient beings. It’s a simple message which has been distorted over centuries. The Catholic Church is a disgrace of abuse and lies and cover ups.
Fundamentalist Muslims and Christians pour scorn on other people’s sexuality, killing people over it, like it’s any of their business what other consenting adults do privately.
Tell women not to use contraceptives or have abortions because god. How did a simple message of love and forgiveness get to be involved in what I choose to do with my womb, or who I’m allowed to love.
Fuck the lot of them and their destructive forces on humanity.

You can't say with absolute certitude the Flying Spaghetti Monster or Patton Oswalt's fairy godmother don't exist either. But I'm going to round down to zero, just the same.

Ex Roman Catholic here.. oh yes, let’s drum it into the children. Catholic Priests fucked up my family, so I know the damage caused by imposed Religious rules, twisting people and creating guilt in their minds for their natures. It’s as if we don’t trust ourselves to be kind and good humans.
Nature has rules. Sex can makes babies. Homosexuality is all thru nature, which we are part of.
Religion isn’t needed for humans to work it out and work together.

(Ex)Catholics seem to have a hard time realizing that all religion is not like the toxic evil they grew up with.

26
Incest, cannibalism, (gang) rape, poo-flinging;
all thru nature.
Do you advocate we embrace them?

Nelsonia @ 28
Please spare us the bull poo. Homosexuality is about people attracted to their own sex who form loving/sexual relationships just like all others. Nothing to be a shamed of let alone equated with murder, incest and rape.
Furthermore, homosexuality was never a major biblical no-no and lines like, “But this is what god wants,” are nothing but a lame excuse used by bigots to impose their own fearful views.

Hey!
Don't be shaming incest, cannibalism, gang rape and poo-flinging;
you narrow-minded homo sapiens supremacist bigot!
It hurts the other primates' feelings.

@all, let's refrain from feeding this latest troll.

@20 thelastcomment nails it. The problem is these 'therapists' who really shouldn't have licenses are spreading the some crap about how it's BAWLS responsibility to stay with her horrible boyfriend because he might have a problem.

The problem isn't that he's mentally ill, the problem is that he's not doing anything to manage his illness, and these 'therapists' are encouraging her to stay in what honestly is an abusive relationship, because having a diagnosis doesn't make abuse not count, and we need to stop acting like it does.

Oh, Commie, really, your disguises are about as effective as those fake glasses-nose-moustache combos. Fubar @31, it's the same troll back again.

MsAnon @32: Can you -- or anyone else -- please quote where either of the therapists, where anyone at all, said it's BAWL's responsibility to stay with him? No one said this. Ever. It's simply a case of dumping him compassionately versus dumping him because he's a motherfucker. Xiao @20, I'm sorry you confused "have compassion" with "you must stay," but these are not the same thing. My take is that therapists are treating -couples- who have come to therapy because they want to remain couples, and giving the healthy partner coping strategies because just telling them "leave" is not what they want to hear.

On a lighter note, am I the only one who thought the bouncing package in the gym shorts looked silly, not sexy?

You are all going to burn in hell...sizzle sizzle sizzle

33

Oh BD, what would we ever do without you?

This is perhaps totally off topic but I'm way more irritated by people who prattle on endlessly about astrology. I can't tell you the number of conversations I have with people where they start discussing someone's behavior by talking about how "That's just like a Gemini" or "Well, he's a Taurus so that makes sense." And if you tell them that you don't understand what that means, they look at you like you're crazy. Which is insane, because they're the ones who are claiming that the position of the stars and planets on the day you were born somehow dictates your personality.

It's also annoying because it totally derails the conversation. It's like if someone started telling me about some problem and I answered back, "Oh you're such a Hufflepuff. You should definitely try to be more Slytherin about this." (Which actually is kind of more useful than astrology when you get down to it, those terms have actual meanings).

Rant over.

Nope rant back on.

Non-Mormon religions have two things going for them over astrology.

1.) The magic stuff happened a long-time ago and things are shrouded in the past. We know super little about those time periods, maybe there was a God out there stepping into human affairs. Seems far-fetched to me but at least there isn't any direct evidence against it.

2.) Religions don't tend to lean on scientific proof. The point (and some would say the manipulation) of religion is that it's based on having a faith in something you can't really understand or prove. There's some academic work that can be done with texts and what not but for the most part, religions concern matters that we can't realistically prove or disprove.

Astrology is based on the here and now and it has been consistently and regularly debunked. But there's still a horoscope in the paper each day (imagine the outcry if there was a Bible Verse of the Day in the NYT) and people still believe something that has clearly and conclusively been proven to be pseudoscience.

Rand probably over.

BDF - I've cited where a "therapist" said that Dan's advice to break up wasn't helpful on two separate threads now. You even responded to the one on this thread.

@36

You must be an Aries

Creepy Jump rope video.

Baby @38: "Your advice wasn't helpful" does not mean "don't break up." Advice that was helpful would have acknowledged the possibility of mental illness or trauma rather than jumping to the conclusion that he was faking in order to manipulate. "He may have a mental illness that is causing these reactions, but if he's not willing to get help, you are entitled to dump him" would have been helpful advice, don't you think?

@41 Your advice was helpful BiDanFan, the therapists seemed more interested in unintentionally guilt tripping BAWLS over trauma that may not have happened.

Saving a relationship should not come at the cost of the people in the relationship.

And mental illness should never treated as an excuse to abuse someone.

MsAnon @42: I think the therapists' advice would have been more helpful if they were answering BAWL's question directly rather than responding to Dan's bad advice of "he's an asshole, DTMFA." Really it was Dan, not BAWL, they were urging to have more compassion and consider the possibility of mental health issues or childhood abuse, as Dan is the professional advice giver here and he dropped the ball. (Or dropped the BAWL, as the case may be!)

I think many professional therapists must have some form of Stockholm Syndrome (regarding the perspectives of their patients--with paranoia, extreme sensitivity to criticism, difficulty processing conflict, etc.--as the norm). I wonder how they combat this?

@44 Harriet_by_the_bulrushes
I don't think I've seen that, but it is an interesting hypothesis. Had I seen those effects (even less hyperbolically manifested), I might think it had more to do with that people often come to healing professions(1) after experiencing a need for healing themselves. In other words, maybe the problems would come from within them more than from association with their patients.

(1) I've noticed this most often with psychological health professionals and all kinds of alternative medical professionals.

I think Dan is most likely right that BAWLS should break up. A relationship where one person is constantly accusing the other of hating them is difficult to save and mental illness isn't an excuse for this behavior. The problem is the discussion became about mental illness in general not just about this thing. And obviously if someone is afraid everyone hates them you can't always assume they are manipulative. Things are a bit more complicated than that.

TLC @46: "Things are a bit more complicated than that." EXACTLY. Thank you.