@99. Centrists. Who said anything about 'forcing those interests'? That is, forcing nonmonogamy on someone under duress, or twisting their arm behind their back, so they allow you some strange, while inwardly screeching at the concession?

What we (the programmatically pro-poly or ENM believers) believe is the opposite of what you think we believe (apparently). We believe in relationships being conducted through openness and negotiation. Not in strongarming lovers to do as we want because we hold the higher cards. And of course self-sacrifice is likely required to keep the show of any relationship on the road. This is essential to the whole structure of the beliefs of someone like Dan--'price of admission' etc. But if you want something in a relationship, ask for it gently and are refused, that's it. You don't get what you want. There's no higher morality to it. You seem to want to transmute personal disappointment into the virtue of renunciation.

The testimonials from het married polys do not show any consistent pattern of the man asking for openness after children have been born (because, say, he felt like shirking on the childcare or thought his wife wasn't putting out sufficiently). This would be a projection. In one case, the woman had an existing LDR and kept it. In another, the husband proposed ENM when a child was seven; and in a third, the couple jointly broached poly and made it work two years before they began a family.

Fuck off Harriet. I didn’t say anything about only men, and it was a joke. If you were a parent, you could relate.
Stop responding to my comments. Please.
Like I do with yours, skim past them.

I don’t know what your problem is Harriet, besides being a know it all about everything.
Stop stalking me and trying to invalidate my perspectives and ideas.
Mother issues? Go do some therapy.

Lava @97: "She wasn’t comfortable being caught in a trap." And neither was he. Why can people not see the other side?

Centrists @99: "For the record, anyone can bring up nonmonogamy whenever they want, and people’s desires can change" -- yay, progress! Though I don't know why you cling to this idea that it's only men who want polyamory, or where you read any sort of shaming into it. You're basing all these biases on one example from your sheltered life. Men embrace polyamory, but this woman "claimed to be poly"? I, too, became poly when I was in a single, opportunistic-horndog phase post-monogamous breakup and started seeing some people who were poly. Guess what, seven and a half years later I am still with one of them, and greatly enjoying all the others. The situation you drip so much contempt for does happen. Not everyone is like you, and your gender stereotypes are rubbish.

Lava @103-@104: I don't know what YOUR problem is! Harriet is obviously responding to Centrists's assertions that only men want polyamory, and drawing on the responses to your question about how it is managed with children, most, if I'm not mistaken, were provided by the women in such relationships. A tangential question, of course, because this couple do not want children.

@105, I can see his side, I don’t agree with his original tactics. I did earlier on say I thought she was lying to herself. That she should come clean.
He mentioned it a few yrs back, and then radio silence till marriage was talked of. Bit sketchy re how Important this is to him. Then he says it’s happening anyway. So good. Let them part and it happens. But no, he catches her by giving her a full five years to come on board, like it’s a firegone conclusion she will be feeling any more ok about it then, than she does now.
He goes or says he still feels like another lifestyle is something he wants to try, and they talk. Find a compromise, or part.

Forgone, not firegone.
Is the fire gone in this relationship? They need to check and find out.

@101 - I’m talking about the people in the letter. I am not suggesting poly=coercion overall.

My impression of poly overall is that it’s a lot of communication. It’s talking and talking and talking.

I miss the good old days when people caught feelings, got drunk, let things happen, and dealt with the aftermath in song. sigh That was more human. Authentic.

Now we come up with labels, debate what it all means for months, process our feelings, and then brag about the aftermath in gifs on reddit.

My only hope for global warming is that we humans have gotten too narcissistically self-conscious to fuck, so the birth rate comes down. One of my friends has a daughter who’s decided at a young age that she’s poly and bi or pan or something. She’s confused. What pubescent youngster isn’t? But now we’ve given her all these labels so she can tie herself in knots to explain what her identity is.

She will never relate to another human being authentically in her life. It will all be refracted through labels and through her own highly processed feelings, until she gets so desperate for human touch that she rawdogs a rando she met on tinder.

Bringing it full-circle. Mr. PPuP has some pretty garden-variety interests for a human male. PPuP has some pretty garden-variety tendencies for a human female. They are trying to negotiate those, as human males and females have been doing for millennia, usually in ways that are coercive. Forced dependency where a female has to marry and the male (of means) keeps a separate woman available on lesser terms as sexual chattel? Yep, we did that. Now we arm a shit like Mr. PPuP with a neat label that he can use to badger his wifey into letting him get his way. The old way was somehow more honest. Less whiny.

But don’t take it personally. Your own brand of poly is your own business. Maybe it’s really charming and authentic and edifying the way you practice it. My comments are about the letter in specific and humanity in general. I have no idea where you or “true” poly (however the true believers define it) fall in all of that.

@101 - I know, if you’re poly, that I can’t win fhis argument, if that’s what we’re having, so I am going to leave the rest of the comments to you. Or not that I can’t so much as I just won’t. You will use your superpowers to talk me into submission, the same way you do all spontaneous human emotion, so i’ll just apologize now and acknowledge that Mr. PPuP is clearly in the right, I was wrong to attack him, and I am happy for his journey of self-discovery wherein he has realized his unlimited capacity to love. He is clearly a better human being than I. I will immediately start working to open my marriage, now that I have seen the error of my selfish, selfish ways.

@105 - I never said only men are poly, but in this letter, it is clear that the man thinks he is, while the letter writer clearly isn’t. She is maybe open to the idea.

You are invested in poly and are defending Mr. PPuP because you’re projecting, i.e.: it’s all about you, which - through sheer coincidence, I am sure - is also true of every guy friend of mine who has ever claimed to be a sensitive feminist and waxed poetic about polyamory.

Again, I’m sure that’s just a coincidence.

I don’t know. If i have to choose between honest blatant selfishness and the kind that masquerades as enlightenment, I’ll go with unhypcritical assholery any day of the week.

Oh well, as you were - I’ll let you and lava and the person whose pretend name I forgot go back to your usual circle jerk at the end of the thread.

Centrists does have a good point at the core- it's the one I made too before reading this comment thread. Like a lot of conversations, it's spiraled into something else, but back to the original point... It is true that this man has been fine to not be poly or open for about a decade and not mentioning it, and nothing he has said (as presented in the letter) indicates that's he's been suffering from this or even brought it up for years. But when presented with the prospect of getting married, he suddenly brings it up again as a deal breaker.

First off, he is right to be clear about what he wants before entering into marriage and he owes neither marriage nor monogamy to the LW- a person who he has NOT made a lifelong nor monogamous commitment to. So good on him.

But in the second place... I do think it's weird the way people aren't really hearing Centrists' core point (if I'm understanding it and not just projecting my own), which is that this guy is really into the idea of being able to fuck lots of other people and wants to keep his options open in the future rather than settle down into what has been his real life for years now. It's a lot of words and new lingo just to say cold feet.

So combine the two. Why has this guy put zero effort into exploring being poly in the past? Is it just lack of opportunity or that he doesn't know how to go about it? Why not even bring it up until now? Has he just been "settling" all this time until something better comes along - or at least telling himself that's what he's doing? That he has this kinky poly future in store for him so long as he doesn't settle down? Sometimes people run a long time on fantasies of the future and it reality really doesn't hit until they are old enough to deny it anymore, and that's what we tend to call a midlife crisis. And considering that this guy uses language like "biological clock" just to refer to "I'm a dude that wants to fuck a lot of women and it will get harder when I'm older", I'd say that he does sound like a candidate for a midlife crisis and cold feet.

None of this means the man should not move on into open relationships, perhaps with the LW or perhaps not- life is short and if he really wants to experience that, he should go for it, and yet again- good on him for being honest about it.

But the dismissal of Centrists' view here is a little weird to me. I mean, to me it seems pretty obvious he wants to have his cake and eat it too. If being in an open or poly relationship were really so important to him, why has he been with this woman for ten years instead of looking for someone who wants to have the sort of relationship he wants? And why not bring it up until now (other than that one time)? To me, it does sound like he has been happy to be with this woman, and he'd rather make this woman into the one that wants to be poly rather than risking losing this woman and being poly himself and looking for a poly woman.

The evidence is that A) he did in fact make it a deal breaker when she brought up marriage. That puts her in the position of deciding if she wants to change their relationship or end it. He's the one that wants the change, but he's not the one making the decision to stay in things as they are or leave and find what he really wants. And B) he says he wants to be poly, not just that he wants an open relationship. These are two very different things. I don't think the LW is really considering how extremely different it will be. Allowing your husband to fuck around from time to time is one thing- it has basically no effect on your own relationship or time. Allowing your husband to have an entire relationship separate from your own- that's a whole different lifestyle. And there is no fucking way that either of them have any idea how this would affect them personally nor how it would affect their marriage so it's just stupid to talk about it as something that we must do within five years of marriage. What if they do it in a few years and the LW decides she's miserable that way? Or vice versa.

That's why I'm saying the LW needs to reconsider why/if she wants to get married in the first place (the man's lack of enthusiasm here would be enough for me to say no- why marry someone who isn't really excited about it?).

And the LW's man needs to shit or get off the pot. Either he's happy to be in this relationship as it with the possibility that one day they might explore other things or one day they won't - it has to be considered a cherry on top and not a requirement. Or - if being poly/open is really something he seriously wants to do with this remaining years of youth as a priority, he needs to end this relationship now and look for one that is more compatible to his goals. It seems unfair to stay here with these conditions. Again, lots of words and new lingo, but all he's saying is "All only marry you if you guarantee that I get to fuck other women".

If they do decide to stay together with marriage in the near future, they should open their relationship now and see how they like it.

Well thanks centrist. I so love a circle jerk.

I didn’t agree or disagree with centrists, EL. As they were following a convo with Harriet, I skipped their posts also.
Given your analysis of centrists’ comments, I agree.
Some poly and ENM people appear to assume their lifestyle is somehow better than monogamy. Yet monogamy suits who it suits, not sure why people won’t accept that.

Whatever went on here, it sure was robust, the outcome is the LW let her bf in on it all, and they are talking straight with each other.
Good outcome.

@111 - Nailed it! You are not projecting. You totally got what I was saying. Ohmygod - I’d forgotten what it was like when another human being actually hears you! Perhaps there is still hope for our wretched species.

@112 - You made me LOL. Sorry to catch you up in my snark. I always enjoy your comments. Keep lava’ing!

All good centrist. Cheers.

@105. Bi. Thank you! I was taking a step back to address the larger question, raised more specifically by Centrists than Lava, whether 'men are more predisposed to poly than women'.

@108. Centrists. Oh I don't know, I think being conscious is good. In sex. In anything. Acting without reflection typically replicates previously existing mindsets, and the power relations embedded in them. In a coarse-grained way, I think lots of these power relations are loaded against women, so my belief in poly is aligned with my feminism. Let's take a 15yo girl thinking about starting to have sex--about her social, gender and sexual identity. She might now think 'I'm cis', where ten years previously someone in a comparable place wouldn’t have phrased the thought so explicitly. I think the change is good. She can get a clearer handle on what she wants and can expect; and her consciousness, further, is antitransphobic in exposing how cisness is one (the main, but not the only) way of doing femininity.

@109. I don't think anyone supposes that poly suits everyone. No one's trying to convert you to poly. The 'super powers' comment is snide. Why not just say, 'I can't come up with a better argument than you'. Or (something like), 'I know this isn't about winning the argument; it's an exchange of views, and I can't think of any view that gives your perspective the lie'. The 'made-up name' comment @110 is foolish. Your name is Mr / Ms Centrists Rule?

@111. Emma. Oldrolo wants to do poly in his life. If he marries PPUP (he thinks or fears), he loses that option. This is why poly has resurfaced now.

Oh FFS, Centrists @109, saying that Mr PPUP is being reasonable to ask for what he wants is not an imperative to anyone else to open their relationship. Childishness isn't going to "win" you any arguments. And @110, you are clearly framing this particular man's desire to be poly as something that arises from the mentalities of "all 12- and 13-year-old boys" and equating it with the shaming of women, so don't pretend there is even a shred of gender neutrality regarding your mindset. Yes, I'm projecting my and dozens of other happy female polys' experiences over your sexist assumptions, just as you're projecting your close-minded judgment. I wonder which is going to lead to a more tolerant view? We seem to agree that they're incompatible; you just think they're incompatible because he is a Bad Person rather than because they want different, both valid, but irreconcilable things. I much prefer the latter view. At least it doesn't lead me to conclude that things were better when non-monogamously-minded men (and, ahem, women) just lied and cheated. Enjoy your unhypocritical assholery.

EmmaLiz @111: To your "why" questions, I would propose a combination of inertia and wishful (dickful) thinking. She hints that she might want to revisit openness later; he is patient, and "later" turns into years. Then she finally initiates a conversation regarding changing the terms of their relationship, only surprise! She wants to change the terms to marriage, which, again, both of them had been fine without for ten years, rather than openness, which he asked about and tabled in hopes that she would come round. In his shoes I'd be a bit miffed too -- why is it now about what YOU want; will it never be about what I want? I recently had a discussion where I proposed changing the term "midlife crisis" to "midlife enlightenment." Yes, we hit middle age and all of a sudden we realise we don't have an infinite amount of time on this planet, and if we don't go for what we want now (other sexual partners, a change of career, travel, whatever) we may not get the chance. Why is that bad? Better than looking back from one's 70s with bitterness and regret.

I didn't think I would have to clarify that my view that Mr PPUP is being reasonable in asking for what he wants does not mean that I think poly/ENM is better than monogamy, but perhaps, as Centrists laments, people aren't hearing me, so I will.

EmmaLiz @111: It's not what Centrists is saying but the way they're saying it that's getting so much pushback from me. I don't, in fact, disagree with the core point that Mr PPUP has cold feet and wants to avoid a closing-off of his other options as he approaches middle age. I do disagree that this makes him a douchebag.

EmmaLiz @111 "Why has this guy put zero effort into exploring being poly in the past?"

Yep, if poly was a dealbreaker for him, he should have introduced it into his current relationship sooner. But that's second-guessing.

Actually, I retract my agreement with the phrase "cold feet." Cold feet means a sudden change of heart on the eve of making a commitment. Mr PPUP was never keen on marriage, and brought up ENM five years ago, so his position is neither sudden nor a change of heart.

And yes, That Other Guy @122, should Mr PPUP have been firmer about advocating for his desires five years ago? Probably, but we can't rewrite history.

Harriett: “That comment about my superpower was snide!”

Harriett + BiDanFan: 6 more posts at me polysplaining Mr. PPuP’s shittiness.

Help me, since my English are not so good: is “snide” a word meaning “spot fucking on?”

You've descended into "I know you are but what am I?" style debate, Centrists, so I don't think there is any further to proceed from here. Don't date poly people, Centrists, and we won't date you. Problem solved.

@125 - And you try reading the actual letters and not using them to flog your own dead horses, okay? I don’t think you heard anything but what you wanted to hear in the letter, in this thread... Your head is its own echo chamber. Harriett is even worse - reacting to stuff I didn’t say or even imply. Pfffht.

Mr. PPUP again...
@BiDanFan et. al. thanks for backing me up. I made a list of action items for us to start exploring openness. I assure everyone there will be no dealines or ultimatums issued. Could you take a look and let me know if I'm missing anything or if anything should be stricken from the list?
- Couples counseling
- Watch more porn together. Take turns picking out videos.
- Listen to books together (The Ethical Slut, Opening Up) and talk about them.
- Go to some sexy public event together. Strip club? Sex club? Observe and ponder and discuss.
- Go to a poly meetup.
- Write a description of my ideal ENM relationship. Share it with PPUP. Talk about boundaries.
- Create Tinder profiles together. Share our thoughts about our matches. Maybe graduate to flirtatious texting. Talk about that.
- Explore independently. FetLife profile. Go to a munch or other event without the other person present.
- Re-evaluate and talk about Marriage license, Advanced Directive, getting a will in place, power of attorney as needed, etc.

Backed you up oldrolo. To do what? Sounds like you’re steamrolling this story along.
LW, seeing you are the one whose letter we answered, If you don’t or can’t or won’t follow your partner into ENM, that is ok.
You are still young, and there are many men who prefer monogamy. No relationship is more important than being true to oneself.

Oldrolo is the bf right? Honestly I find it creepy that someone would put that much effort into convincing his partner to realize that she wants him to fuck other women rather than just finding a partner who is already open and poly. Would be different if the LW were interested naturally as well, rather than simply being open to it (eventually and so far not enthusiastically) in order to save the relationship. A list of things that include legal advice, listening to books / watching porn together, going to meetings, showing her a list of HIS ideal relationship - it sounds like indoctrination to me. Yuck. There's absolutely nothing at all wrong with wanting to be poly or open and choosing to explore that even after an ltr. But it's weird to put so much effort into convincing your partner that she wants it too.

LW, please think long and hard about what YOU want.

@119 Harriet

So what does that have to do with the LW? If he wants to be poly, he should go be poly. And if her proposal has made him realize it's time to shit or get off the pot, he needs to make his choice. He is not in a poly relationship. Therefore, he should not marry her if he wants to be in a poly relationship. Maybe they stay together for a while and explore it, but she does not seem keen for any reason beyond doing it for him. But saying they should get married only if they decide to become poly (something they know nothing about) in the next five years is just stupid and unfair.

@BDF

Yes I agree with all that, and I can see that he could have this thing in the back of his head for years and never really go for it (inertia, etc) until the LW brings up the conversation of a lifelong commitment and he starts to think about how the years have passed, he hasn't gotten this thing he wants, etc. What I'm saying is- that's really his fault. If it's so important to him, he should have sought that and prioritized it from the beginning. I also totally understand that hindsight is everything (as ThatOtherGuy says), and perhaps this marriage proposal really made him consider what he wants. But then the correct way to proceed isn't to take it upon himself to try to convince her or get a commitment for a major unknown lifestyle change from her in a certain timeline or else refuse to marry her. He should recognize the incompatibility and move on to what he really and truly wants (to be poly) or else recognize that he wants her and therefore the poly might happen or might not- no big deal either way. To undertake changing her and their lifestyle and putting this on a timeline, that's a totally wrongheaded approach. And unfair. As for Centrist, yes I see what you mean about the tone, etc. I was not reading very closely I think the first time around. For example, I missed the BF's response and also your response that their breakup seems inevitable due to incompatibility, sorry.

I personally do not understand why anyone would marry anybody who was not enthusiastic about it unless there is some legal reason (health insurance, immigration status, property rights, etc). So already I'm questioning the LW's interest in marrying her BF in the first place.

Then, why would the BF (indifferent as he is to marriage) leave that up to the LW? I spy a trend here. What sort of person secretly harbors a desire to be poly but puts zero effort towards it due to inertia in current relationship? Exactly the sort of person who tells his partner that he leaves one of the most important (legal and practical and emotional and material) decisions of his life up to her. Also the sort of person who creates timelines of fictional futures rather than actively working in his present to direct his life. And finally, this is the sort of person who will be resentful later on if his imaginary future does not work out. Let's say she agrees to trying out being poly in a year or two of marriage and then hates it? Is the BF saying he wants a wife that will try it or that he wants a poly wife? Those are two different things. Seems rather a lot of pressure and opportunity for blame game later.

They both need to take responsibility for their shit. If the LW wants to get married, she shouldn't be lingering for years in a relationship with someone who is indifferent to marriage.

If the BF wants to be poly (new desire or old one that he's not prioritized- doesn't matter), he should focus right now on being poly. RIGHT NOW. If that means exploring it with his girlfriend to see how they like it, do that. If it means breaking up with his girlfriend to pursue a poly relationship, do that.

But getting married while trying to convince the girlfriend that she really wants his fantasy too (hear, honey, watch this porn and read this book and see my list of ideal relationship desires and here's some legal advice) all in order to make sure he's sufficiently fucking others in five years without losing his current girlfriend- nope, that's never going to work.

Maybe "cold feet" isn't the right word for this, y'all are correct. But I'm not sure what is.

Anyway, where it seems I agree with Centrist is that I wonder how much this BF really wants to be with the LW and how much he just doesn't want to risk losing her and then having to face establishing himself as a single man looking to be poly. Bird in the hand vs two in the bush and all that. Looks like where I disagree with Centrist is in thinking these decisions are necessarily gendered. I do think there is pressure on women under patriarchy to conform to male sexuality, and I can see why Centrist would think some of that is going on here. But I don't think being poly or not is necessarily a specific aspect of this. Just as often, a woman might prefer to be open and she's shamed for it or devalued for not being chaste, etc. The way to overcome this isn't to be one way or another but rather to own your own sexuality and desires and look for a compatible partner (knowing full well that these things are flexible). The man in this case is doing that now (after not doing it for a long time) and that's why I keep saying he's doing the right thing in being honest. Where it's tricky is that he's trying to tie it up in some timeline before committing to a marriage that he doesn't necessarily want with a partner that isn't particuarly interested in being poly. He shouldn't force himself into marriage or try to convince her that she wants a different lifestyle. That's patriarchy again- and it's not good for him either. He should accept that he is who he is, that he wants what he wants, that this lifestyle choice (like any other) has consequences and joys, and he should move on to someone more compatible. The LW too.

EmmaLiz, I think the marriage is his prize to her for following orders. If I was the LW, I’d get out now. Oldrolo sounds like one pushy man.

My partner has said she was willing to think about it and explore it, so I'm taking her at her word and looking for a healthy way to do that. I can't really imagine how I could possibly be more accommodating. I have been extremely patient and will continue to be, because I love her very much and because that's just how I am.
It seems like you guys are pretty quick to suggest ending the relationship, even when two people have spent a decade building a happy life together. I'm not willing to toss it aside that quickly, and neither is she.
It also seems like you're much more interested in arguing semantics, debating hypotheticals based on assumptions you've made and stroking your own egos than actually trying to help people, so I'll just leave you to it. I should have known better than to ask for advice in a comments section...

Write a letter to Dan, oldrolo.
This was not your letter, and like with the planned future with your partner, you took control.
A relationship is a partnership between equals.

Oldrolo, I suspect this is not your first day on the internet so don't play that "oh you just like to argue" game. Also we are giving advice on a relationship advice forum to people who asked for relationship advice including yourself who came here willingly to participate. The way the internet works, you no doubt know, means you will see some stuff you like, some stuff that is unhelpful, some stuff that gives you something new to think about, and yes- it's not really about you. It should not surprise you that people discuss things in an online forum mostly for their own reasons, but I think most people here are also motivated as well by wishing everyone well generally.

Again, your girlfriend - according to her and to you- did not suggest she is interested in a poly relationship because it's her thing. She said she's considering it because she wants to be with you, and after learning more, it seems like something less scary that she'd like to try. More power to both of you in exploring this, and I hope it works out, though honestly the way she described her feelings leads me (and others) to believe it will not really be her thing. But we could be wrong, and life is short, and go for it by all means. I don't think anyone here is objecting to a couple exploring things, and sometimes you find out you like something when someone else brings it to the table for you to taste, even if you'd never have done so alone.

But in the context of a marriage timeline, that is wrong headed. Even setting the marriage aside, it's not something you are talking about exploring together. It is something that you want. Your description of the exploration in all three posts but especially here in this most recent one just sounds like it's something you've already made your mind up about and now you are just waiting for her to get on board. Again I ask, what happens if she explores this with you and decides she doesn't like it or it's not a lifestyle option for her long term? The correct attitude is either to accept her as she is and take the POSSIBILITY that she will like being open/poly as a cherry on top but not a requirement. OR if it is honestly as important to you as you say it is (and that's perfectly fine!) then you should clearly look for a relationship like that from the get-go. What you are describing isn't asking your GF to explore it with you, but to explore it and like it and do it. And you don't get any cookies for "being patient" and "accommodating" as she comes around to your way of doing things. Again, you get a load of credit for being honest and clear about what you want before settling into marriage- that's really important and good for you. But the marriage is not just about you, and I can't help but noticing that nowhere in any of these three comments or on your to-do list have you mentioned what SHE desires, what HER ideal relationship looks like, what books/groups/articles she'd like you to consider, etc. That would be how you could possibly be more "accommodating".

Again, why are you considering marriage at all if it's not important to you? She says you will do it because it's important to her. There's a lot here that stinks of you thinking your doing her a favor, by considering marriage, by being patient until she comes around to non-monogamy, and again I ask why you haven't - all these years- been pursuing open relationships in the first place?

BiDanFan @120 - I love your reframing of midlife crises as "midlife enlightenment."

EmmaLiz @111: "Allowing your husband to fuck around from time to time is one thing...Allowing your husband to have an entire relationship separate from your own- that's a whole different lifestyle."

The problem is that open marriages shift spontaneously into polyamory when one's spouse develops feelings for a person who had been just a fun sexual connection. There's no way to ward off feelings, so it makes sense to discuss the issue from the beginning.

oldrolo @127 - those are pretty much the steps my husband and I took when we opened our marriage, though we did individual therapy rather than couples counseling.. Worked well for us. I was the more anxious, jealous type, but he encouraged me to date men and I had more fun with it than I expected to. Still together after almost a decade of non-monogamy.

Thanks to all who jumped on the thread sharing how poly works for them, with children. Wow. Impressive. I hadn’t read thru all the comments before.

For those who may have missed it, PPUP herself wrote back to Dan:
https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/03/22/39684660/one-reader-of-mine-wants-to-blow-another-in-front-of-his-wife-can-i-hook-them-up

(I think my post got eaten; hoping this doesn't post twice.)

In case people didn't see, PPUP herself wrote back to Dan:

https://www.thestranger.com/slog/2019/03/22/39684660/one-reader-of-mine-wants-to-blow-another-in-front-of-his-wife-can-i-hook-them-up

PPUP's guy deserves better - she should dump herself already for his own sake. (We see enough of these that I propose DYA - dump yourself already - as a new standard initialism.)

The plain reading of "biological clock" in this context is "before the ravages of age on my biology make me unattractive to people other than LW whom I'd like to fuck". It's not the standard usage, but the meaning is clear from context. PPUP is very obviously trying to lock in a commitment before she's honest with him and herself that she's not interested in non-monogamy, which is stupid, because if things go according to her plan, she'll still wind up in a non-monogamous marriage, just a cheating one.

@124. Centrists. What is your positive contribution to the discussion? Address yourself to PPUP or oldrolo, from the perspective, if you like (which is many people's perspective) that enjoining poly on a non-poly person is selfish. What would you urge them to do? Which of their impulses should they respect and listen to ... would you want to strengthen? What should they bear in mind?

And are you misspelling my handle deliberately?

@127. Oldrolo. The thought behind your list is 'getting my partner (getting PPUP) to accept that I'll be having sex with other people'. Wrong emphasis. What she's saying to you is, 'this has still to be about us' i.e. she wants reassurance that she's your priority. (I also have the suspicion that some of the things on your list, like watching the porn, are things you'd like, not necessarily things PPUP has mooted). Instead, why not ask, 'what sort of ENM for me would you find acceptable?'. (If the answer is 'none now', hear that and give your own answer). Ask on your own behalf something like, 'if, next business trip, I have NSA outside sex, will you be waiting for me when I come back?'.

@130. Emma. Imv the gf (PPUP) has to say 'yes' or 'no'--'yes, fuck another woman' or 'no--and I grant the cost is a breakup'. Which of them has to shit or get off the pot? Both of them.

That was a limited answer to EmmaLiz's @130 post. I wouldn't dissent from anything in her longer, forceful characterisation of the situation @131.