Spot on, Dan.

Philosophies on children, open/poly relationships, etc. need to not have some sort of vague alignment. Agreement on key details is vital, and she's the one being manipulative in all this, not him.

L-dub... it's time to hop in the water or go find another pool!

off topic: You made the Daily Mail website! the sidebar o' shame! well done, mate!

There's a relevant expression here: "Begin as you mean to go on." The only way to ensure that they are compatible is to take the step into ethical nonmonogamy right now, before they get married.

I don't agree. It seems like he took something that was a plus but not a deal-breaker until yesterday and made it a deal-breaker now. It's possible that he changed his mind, but it's not right to state a wish once and proceed as if you made it clear that it was a deal-breaker for you since the beginning and you just gave the other time. If he already pledged life long committment to her without the marriage and now it seems that this life long committment was in fact only if non monogamy is on the table, he should have said something sooner. Now it seems like a lie. I think that's what making her anxious, he promised that she was more important than enm, so she supposed that he would have stayed with her even if she wasn't going to ever be ready, now he is taking it back. Not a nice move on his part.

It is shown once again that it is important to use your words. If she really is this distraught, she needs to discuss it with him and then they can decide how to proceed. Last time, I checked no one is a mind reader. If she is so freaked out about this situation and such a long timeline, she probably should move on and let him move on too.

@5

If he already pledged life long commitment to her without the marriage

No, he didn't pledge life long commitment. That would be the marriage, which they've been punting down the road.

She knew this was something he wanted, and she thought she could push it off into the indefinite future.

He's being the brave one here by being willing to face their potential incompatibility.

Eh. She's consistently into exploring poly except for the times she's been asked to turn in to a reality. IMO, 10 years (the past 5 from when he first brought it up, plus the next 5 before 40) isn't an "ultimatum"; it's a berth as wide as the ocean. Even 5 years is more than enough. I'm sure he feels once you guys are married you will shut down the poly option and he'll be forced to commit to you exclusively or get divorced - Plans B and C; and from an outside perspective, absolutely no work has been done towards Plan A.

I think you need to get real with yourself about your interest in exploring polyamory. Some of that should be solo, some of that should be in discussion with your partner. At some point you have to say yes or no.

It's nice to get a letter about poly before anyone has violated ethical non-monogamy (either "soft" violations like emotional affairs or full violations) for a change.

I wish people who have ENM relationships, hetero people, would jump on these threads, and say how this works, with children.
LW, if it’s not something you deeply want, then now is the time to break up with this man. I’ve had kids, I know how hard it is to negotiate the sharing of parenting in a monogamous relationship, I sure wouldn’t have done it otherwise.

It seems pretty clear, to this reader, that LW doesn't want this, and she ought to do both of them a favor by accepting that. It reminds me of a relationship I had a few years ago, where my girlfriend at the time kept asking me about marriage, and I kept saying "Yeah, sure, some day, when I'm ready..." It took a long time for me to realize I was being a selfish asshole by leading her on that way, because I didn't want that relationship to end (yet). It was unfair to her and to myself, and LW is being the same way.

I'm not poly, but I do have children and stepchildren, and I think it would be awkward, and maybe better to negotiate before children are born. I think that having had 3 YEARS to think a decision through and saying that up to another 5 years is required for 'processing', that the LW simply doesn't want to explore this subject, and the partner knows it. That is why he has made it a condition of marriage, and why she is pushing back, because in reality, she has no intention of actually following through.
Decisions in marital relationships can be hard- where and how to live, major purchases, children, dealing with family and finances, but imagine if a partner wanted to buy a house- would it take years of letting the idea develop organically to proceed with the plan? At some stage you would have to either shit or get off the pot, and I think this person is stalled on the pot.
Thinking it over, I tend to agree with Dan- that they should break up, because it seems likely that the issue will stall, permanently, once the wedding guests have departed and the photographer has hauled ass. I could see this proceeding as follows- first, an adjustment period to being married is required. Then a kid arrives. Then another kid arrives. Then there is the toddler years, then school...and so on. The issue all the time being booted back another 6 months, or another year, until he is in his forties, and for plenty of 'excellent' reasons, the poly has never happened. And when he finally insists, the decision is poly and divorce, or monogamy for life. And that, fundamentally, is unfair.

This part definitely sounds odd if it's what he remembers saying too. When was he going to bring this biological clock up? What if she had never raised marriage, just kept the status quo? --

"especially since it hasn't even come up in recent discussions about whether we should marry, and because we had already agreed that we wanted to be together for life regardless."

Sounds like actually he might be thinking not so for-life and when marriage enters the picture he sees it as different.

@5 or maybe the sudden talka about making a significant change in their relationship of a permanent nature made him finally examine his feelings and wants and come to just as significant a change in understanding of what he wants out of life as she herself just came to. But hey, be all rigid and one-sidedly blamey.

Unfortunately, I also think they should break up. I can’t tell whether she’s being honest with herself about being willing to explore poly or ENM on her own time. But I can tell this. Instead of seeing this as a “ENM is fundamentally important to him so I am willing to give it a GGG try because I love him and want to see if it can work for me” situation, she has characterized it as an ultimatum to which her acquiescence, if given, is only due to manipulation. Her perspective has trapped her. Unless she changes her perspective, one and perhaps both will always be resentful and unhappy. It also seems like she is an anxious person. For that reason alone, a poly lifestyle may not be compatible with her ease of mind. This can be a simple issue of incompatibility, without the need to weigh and assess blame on either of them. It seems a shame for them to break up, but it also seems the right thing to do.

@9 "I wish people who have ENM relationships, hetero people, would jump on these threads, and say how this works, with children." -- Is hetero required to answer this? I am pansexual, and divorced when my son was 2. That made ENM quite workable, as he's with me half the week while half the week I'm available to date / have relationships. He's 16 now. His Dad has been very supportive, and things work nicely.

I agree with other comments: discussions, conversations, & negotiations are essential for a functional ENM relationship. LW seems to think ENM can organically materialize fully-formed without conversation? Sorry, that's not the way it works. Sounds like her partner is opening the conversation, and she's getting anxious and shutting it down. There are many good books on this topic. Look for Michaels & Johnson and also Taormino.

Thanks @15, ohthetrees. Lovely to hear you have done it well, though a more detailed description is what I meant. How did you deal with other lovers when you had small kids, emotionally, pragmatically? How did you not fall in love with others, especially when babies are teething and keeping you up all night, making everyone a little stressed. It does fascinate me, how it goes for people. Jealousy wise. Time wise. I’m sure there are books around.
No @16, I just made it that because the LW is hetro, whoops hetero, as am I. Thanks too for your response.

Good advice! On a side note, I’ve been wondering whether the trend toward everyone including all their labels at the start of a letter is helpful/inclusive. I get the value in avoiding heteronormative assumptions, but would any of the advice above have been different if the LW was trans and bisexual? Just wondering if other commenters could shed some light on this.

This is all getting very complicated.

Am I the only one here who thinks that -- regardless of what misfires they've had trying to navigate the poly/ENM issue -- a guy referring to this as a "biological clock" sort of scenario is manipulative and pushy? That maybe that specific phrasing, meant to deliberately appeal to a woman's sympathies, is part of why the LW feels backed into a corner over it? I'm certain it's an overreaction but I read that and my brain immediately jumps to 'this guy's been fucking people on the side this whole time and he's rehearsed some sort of BS excuse about it being a biological imperative if he's ever caught.' Especially after her initial meltdown, when she said she later told him she was open to discussing it and he just let it sit all that time. It wasn't important to him then? That said, I'm also very tired so I'm probably not using my best judgement.

Separate from that, I'm thinking if these people want to continue in this relationship, they need to speak to a counselor and address their expectations and feelings about this relationship. I feel like there's some sort of mismatch, like each one wants something different and neither of them realizes. From the way they both seem to be addressing the marriage thing, something tells me if you asked each one separately to describe the relationship you'd get answers that differ in important ways.

Rather than a price of admission here (they've been together ten years), we can talk of a price of continuance. Her price of continuance, it's emerging, is marriage. His is ethical nonmonogamy. Both of their attitudes have a touch of 'after you, Claude' about them. She will give him 'poly' AFTER they get married. Less clearly, it seems that he will get married AFTER she has started to let him have sex with other people (and she hasn't left him, shut down, had a meltdown or been unable to cope and re-vetoed it). After their conversation, they are worse off than before--or their future looks more uncertain--because they each know that the other has a requirement they are only willing to fulfill conditionally and, as it were, under constraint.

Both say things that make me believe an open marriage may not be a goer for them. PPUP doesn't entirely spell out what her concerns with ethical nonmonogamy are. They seem to be that it fucks you up psychologically (the nonmonogamous types they know are well-adjusted; and she seems surprised, or reassured, by this). Someone who wants to be poly, imv, doesn't intuitively think that having sex with different people will be unsettling. They think--'yay!'. 'More people to fuck--more scenarios--more positions!'. PPUP does not seem to find the prospect wildly enjoyable. For her, as much as him. Hot new cock, PPUP! But it's something she will only concede on sufferance.

His remark about his biological clock is odd, too. You can start a new sexual practice at any age. As a teen I thought I was condemned to cock-sucking for life. I was in my 30s before I had sex with a woman. In my 40s before I grouped in a private dungeon (yes!). The requisites for sex are kindness, goodwill and desire, much more than they are experience.

My advice to her? Arrange a threesome for them with her hottest bi friend tomorrow. Don't pre-discuss it. Her partner already thinks she's a big, wearisome, faux-reasonable pre-discusser; and it doesn't get them anywhere. Tell him the friend is coming round as a dinner guest, or for consolation over her recent breakup--then spring the threeway on him as a surprise. Make it her gift or something the friend initiates. If he's blocked or backs down, he doesn't want an open relationship or only wants dadt. If she can't go through with watching him fuck someone else, so what? She's taken a huge step forward. Have him wear a cock-ring and say it's a pre-engagement ring. All this is terrible advice--but my point is, it's HOT. Her life is going to be one protracted misery if her headset can't change and she can't come to think that having sex with other people is fundamentally hot.

I feel this answer is a bit harsh to the LW.

Both of the people here seem like they are dealing with things they don't quite want. He isn't that fussed about marriage. She doesn't want a relationship that is poly or has ENM, not really. The anxiety she is feeling about ENM and her bf's ultimatum is her not wanting this. As many podcasts or books or poly friends she listens to, they will only ever tell her the practicalities, they cannot tell her how she will feel. She's hoping ENM will happen naturally because she doesn't want to push it and isn't interested really in it, not for herself. This is why, it sounds to me, why she hasn't sat down and had the discussion about the realities of it- she doesn't have a preference as she isn't that fussed. But then, her bf doesn't sound all too fussed either really, given he's brought it up twice in a number of years and is now talking about his 'biological clock'. If it was that much of a deal breaker, he would have brought it up sooner or ended the relationship.

However, it is important to deal with the ENM stuff before thinking about marriage. And not just talk, but experience it if that's what you both want to try. It may be that the bf doesn't quite find it as enjoyable as he thought, or that the LW does feel more comfortable with it, in which case marriage can go ahead. But if the anxiety never goes away over ENM, the relationship needs to end.

MythicFox @20, I assumed he was talking about having babies? Then maybe not. Is there a biological clock for being poly and men’s bio clock ticks much slower than women’s re having babies.
Something feels a little suss re the man’s response. Whether he’s giving her six months or five years, it is hanging over her head, it is an ultimatum.

@5. Semele. The ENM wasn't essential if all they were concerned about was staying together. It becomes essential if she wants to get married. You more or less say this.

But it's a waste of energy to try to determine who's more 'right'. The question is, can she offer ENM now?

@8. Sportlandia. I think you're right about what he feels (that she is just dangling poly and, in the event and once they're married, will be unable to live with it). Why doesn't he offer her an ultimatum? 'Some time in the next three months, I will have purely casual dadt sex in a way shielded from you. I want you either to leave me now, or say in three months' time whether it's made any difference to you and your sense of the relationship'.

@9 Lava expresses an excellent wish for members of straight poly/open couples to write in, saying how the arrangement works for them.

Lava is right again @23--'something ... a little suss about the man's response'. Why has he stayed with her? Because he cares for her or out of convenience and habit?

PPUP, the words you use to describe your feelings about non-monogamy are "terror," "anxiety," "deal-breaker," and "ultimatum." You really do not sound like someone for whom non-monogamy is ever going to be appealing. On the other hand, there are many different ways to go about non-monogamy, and your letter suggests you do not to recognize that fact. Is your boyfriend actually asking for polyamory, because he wants to explore multiple committed, romantic relationships, or simply the freedom to enjoy sex with women other than you? There is significant difference between enjoying an occasional evening of sex with another couple and your partner having a long girlfriend whom he also loves. That is a conversation you need to open now, if you are seriously interesting in staying in this relationship. So that you have the vocabulary to have this conversation, you might consider reading The Ethical Slut, among other books, which may key you to a form of non-monogamy that you could consider for your relationship. However, if there is no form of non-monogamy with which you are comfortable exploring in the near-term, you need to accept that you have incompatible sexual interests, and it is best that you end the relationship.

As was Mt. Beaver @12. Alan@13 & lindy@11 also offer excellent characterisations and advice. I like everyone's advice today.

Go to a meetup at least, PPUP. Schedule it next time you see your bf. Like, now.

Idk, I think it's an option to get pregnant and then talk about how you'll raised your little ones while you're waiting for them to be born. I don't think whether or not your kids will go to public school is going to change your mind about having kids.

Organically being that we know he wants to have sex with other people and one day she just has to say "I want to have sex with other people". Then they can chat it up.

Marriage doesn't mean lifelong commitment, it's a financial contract. Lifelong commitment is just saying you're committed for life. Which, come on, sounds like a fairytale all things considered. At least 50% of marriages end in divorce & probably moreso with financially uncommitted relationships.

I know it's cheaper to go to a columnist than a therapist, but if you are both having trouble reconciling your closed in/ trapped/ forced feelings you should consider couples therapy.

My thoughts upon reading this letter:

"Over the last few weeks, several things have come together to make me realize I definitely want to get married." What are those things? It seems strange that 10 years of ambivalence would vanish in a few weeks.

"In our discussion I said I don't know specifically when I'll be ready to open up—but that I will be." If I were on the receiving end of this, I would absolutely interpret it as "I won't be." Especially when you might not be at any point within the next five years.

"This new deadline feels like an ultimatum." Isn't that what your marriage proposal is as well? You're asking for a change to a relationship that he's perfectly happy with in its current state. He feels justified in replying that if he agrees to something you want, you should agree to something he wants. If you don't think you can proceed to being poly within the next five years, be honest with him and with yourself -- you're not poly. Is the relationship more important to him than polyamory? Is it more important to you than marriage? Why do you want marriage, and why don't you (admit it) want poly?

"I don't really know who is right or wrong here." Nobody is right and nobody is wrong. You both have needs/desires. Are you both willing to help your partner get their needs met?

My other thought is that your partner likely thinks it will be harder to find partners as a married poly man than as an unmarried one, which may or may not be the case. I know a couple, together 10 years, married for three, and they are just as actively poly as ever. I would recommend becoming poly first, and then getting married, if you agree both are important to you. Poly can be hard and divorcing is much tougher than breaking up, should it come to that. Also, marriage carries a lot of "forsaking all others" baggage; your partner may, accurately, think that once a ring is on your finger you may close your mind to poly, and he will feel tricked and trapped. Not a good way to start the rest of your life.

So. You've asked for an answer, and so has he. Are you truly interested in being poly -- or at the very least allowing your future husband to be poly -- or was that just lip service? (Your partner should ask himself these questions regarding marriage, too.) Search your soul for the answer, perhaps with a couples counsellor, as indeed you can't un-ask each other these questions.

Jealousy would have been too big an obstacle for my ex and I to summount, because we both came from families where jealousy wasn’t dealt with by the adults.
Alanmt @14, I don’t think this is a GGG situation, is it? This is not comparable to trying a threesome with a sex worker, once in a while.
This is the structure on which the relationship stands. Either both are ok with it, or they are not.
The LW is lying to herself, and she needs to come clean.
People change, and this man has. He’s no longer satisfied with monogamy, sortof.
Really, five years, what is his game?

Thank you, Dan, for making the distinction between poly and ethical non-monogamy. We don't in fact know what type of openness Mr PPUP wants.

Semele @5: "It seems like he took something that was a plus but not a deal-breaker until yesterday and made it a deal-breaker now." That's exactly what she did by asking for marriage, which neither of them found necessary until a few weeks ago. Remember she freaked out when he asked about it before; that's why he didn't ask about it again. I think it's reasonable, when a lifetime legal commitment is on the table, to put his own dealbreaker back on the table alongside it.

Lava @9: She never said they want children (and at their ages, if they did I'm sure she'd have said), so I don't see how that would be relevant.

Mickey @10: Gold star comment. This is exactly what PPUP is doing.

Alan @14: "It also seems like she is an anxious person. For that reason alone, a poly lifestyle may not be compatible with her ease of mind." Great point. If the mention of hypothetical ENM gives her an anxiety attack, how will she react when he tells her there is an actual woman he is interested in dating? Is dating? Is having sex with? Poly isn't for everyone and if she thinks five years is too short a time for her to wrap her head around it, she needs to accept it's not for her.

Mythic @20: If she wanted kids, but wanted to be married before having them, then yes, I would read more into his "biological clock" comment. As there is no hint that her reproductive schedule turns on this relationship, I read it as simply him saying he's not getting any younger and wants to jump into the dating pool while there are still fish in it who would find him attractive and virile.

Harriet @21: "Someone who wants to be poly, imv, doesn't intuitively think that having sex with different people will be unsettling. They think--'yay!'." Bingo -- another gold star insight.

"My advice to her? Arrange a threesome for them with her hottest bi [female] friend tomorrow. Don't pre-discuss it." Now that's terrible advice on several grounds. One, she is straight. What appeal would an extra woman have for her? Two, if the idea of non-monogamy freaks her out, imagine how distressing it would be for her to WATCH her partner with another woman. Three, double that if the woman is hot. Four, as if everyone just happens to have a hot, up-for-anything bi female friend. Five, not pre-discussing boundaries in a situation like this is a recipe for disaster. This may be hot as a fantasy but in reality would ensure their relationship ended on an extremely awkward note. A better idea would be to encourage him to create a Tinder profile and go on an initial, sexless by prior agreement, date -- or each of them go on a date with one of their new poly friends -- and see how she feels about it.

Charrot @18. These are people’s lives we wade thru. The more info we can get, the better.
It’s about experience and the ability to empathise. Shared experiences, cis hetero woman, bring out a different empathy in me, than if the LW was trans or bi. Because I am neither.
People write to Dan because they trust him, with their intimate lives, their stories.
And if they are a cis hetero woman, that is part of their story.

Another thought:
"I said I wasn't ready at the moment but asked if we could revisit it later. He agreed, and then hasn't really mentioned it again. But it's been in the back of my head ever since, and I knew he would likely bring it up again someday."
Why did she assume that? It seems to me like he was waiting for HER to bring it up when she was ready, rather than (a) pressure her and (b) risk another meltdown. He did the right thing by leaving the ball in her court until she asked for a lifetime commitment, which he couldn't make without settling the non-monogamy issue. So as to the question of "who's wrong," it's very clearly not Mr PPUP.

Lava @31, well said. These details give Dan, and us, a sense of who the person is. Would the advice be different if someone were gay/bi or trans, maybe, maybe not. By including the fact that she is cis and hetero, PPUP reveals that she has been socialised in a certain way -- with a presumption of OS monogamy in relationships -- that a queer person might not share. She also included her age, which is also relevant -- if she were 23 or 53 she would be at a different stage of her life and again, the advice might be the same, or it might not. There is certainly no disadvantage to including a few words of self description.

Why the hell does she want to get married? What does she think marriage will bring that the previous ten years of exclusive commitment, paying bills, living together, and sharing their lives won't bring? It doesn't sound like they plan on having kids (great!) and I would presume after ten years they've worked out who pays what bills, whose names are on the property, and if they have power of attorney over one another in case of incapacity. Why get married?

The only thing marriage does (aside from some legal stuff that can be duplicated with other documents) is make it impossible to legally separate one another without the interference of a judge, lawyers, and permission of your partner. It's a trap. It helps NEITHER of you. (Arguably, it could help children, but since you don't have any ...)

Don't get married. Continue to work on the other stuff. And take all that money you were going to blow on a ceremony and instead visit a lawyer to make sure you have all your legal bases covered (Advanced Directive signed, a will in place for each of you, power of attorney as needed, etc.)

@30. Bi. I know my 'set up a threesome tomorrow' advice is appalling. Mainly because it couldn't interest or appeal to her (sexually or otherwise). But the set-up is so hot! I could only be in the position of the bi friend e.g. as the only 'available asshole' for a bi/queer/closeted male partner who expressed a desire to swing. Wow! I would jump at the role! Even at 2-3 hours' notice... I would leave work early, get as much information as possible about how to play the part, discuss what was sexually possible or permissible with the gf.... Then ... male or female clothes? Workwear? Casual? Classy or slutty? How much flirting with the guy? Under the woman's nose, or behind her back? At what stage does she join in and express encouragement? And will she join the threeway??? Well--let's take a break from my fantasies and try to specify some actually useful advice.

/break/
I think she has to say to her partner--and soon--something like, 'I've thought and I now consider it entirely reasonable that we don't proceed to marriage until we have a happy, functional ethically nonmonogamous relationship. You would be quite in order in insisting on that'. Then she should offer whatever she's (in an unpanicked, unpressurised, uncoerced way) comfortable with (their going to a meetup; a Tinder profile for him; her vetting any of his dates; her persuading herself they're no threat to their relationship--whatever). She or they can take it slow; and 'explore boundaries' can genuinely mean both of those things, explore and boundary. I don't think she can seek to squeeze the genie back into the bottle a second time. Or hope it 'organically' slumps into the jar, closing its own lid on the way. Her LTR is at stake here. She must make a genuine, openhearted move in leading them towards ENM.

Thanks Fan @33. Also, being cis means she can get pregnant. Which is what I thought his words were on about. Now I read via Gamebird @34, having children are not what he’s talking about. Weird.
Whatever. I’m starting not to like this guy.

Game @34: Excellent questions, I hope PPUP has considered them. If she just wants a wedding, they could just throw a huge 10-year anniversary party for their family and friends.

Harriet @35: Hot from the point of view of the potential special guest star perhaps, but isn't there enough "surprise threesome" porn/erotica out there for you to refrain from inflicting it on this struggling couple? As someone who had a similar experience years ago, I think that again, in reality, it's far more likely the scenario will go wrong and the couple will blame the third, thereby losing the hot bi friend -- no great loss, however, as she doesn't actually exist in the first place. So yes, let's please leave your fantasies out of this.

I agree with "BiDanFan" - surprise threesomes are a terrible idea.

Also, this sort of behavior is the reason that het poly couples have such a bad name in some circles. Your hot bi friends most likely do not appreciate being propositioned with "I don't find you sexually attractive, but I'm trying to please my man, so will you please have sex with us - btw, I'm definitely going to be having a lot of Feelings about this and probably will sorta passive-aggressively hate you for screwing my man - and did I mention I have no sexual interest in you? And my man's a troll? Now pleeeeeease have sex with us?"

Your bi friends are not interested in trying to fix your marital sexual and emotional problems - go to a swingers club or get a hooker.

For LW, break up. I mean, I wouldn't say DTMFA because it seems he hasn't been doing anything deserving of "MF" status, but the two of you have incompatible wants. You want someone who will give you a solid commitment of "I want to be with you and only you for the long haul, and I am willing to solidify that legally." He doesn't really want that, but he does want to screw other people - which you don't want. I realize you've got a lot of sunk costs in this, but you gotta realize when to cut your losses.

Break up and look for a guy that actually does want to be married and monogamous, and let this guy go free to sleep around.

Must everything be taken from us? Those words mean something.
LW, you’ve had ten good years with this man, and that’s great. This though, is a fork in the road.
This man is starting to play mind games with you and setting ultimatums. Not healthy relationship behaviour. If he wants, or has wanted yet kept oh so silent about for several years, then why isn’t he saying it’s what he wants now. Not in the next five years. By then you’ll be 38 years old.
Go now. Once a man starts these sorts of games, the gig is up and it’s time to leave.

@37 & @38 Traffic. Quite right. It's wretched for a straight couple to suppose they can recruit a bi woman for a threesome without a long, or at any rate clear, process of securing her understanding and consent. I was not making a serious suggestion. My serious suggestions, as tonally marked and otherwise prominent, were elsewhere in my extensive comments.

@37. Bi. There's lots of good, non-fetishising porn featuring the actual bodies of sex/gender-indeterminate people? Not 'chicks with dicks', featuring as a dispiriting het fantasy? In my head, maybe. However, inasfar as you make a serious point about the crassness of appropriating bisexuals to straight fantasy (utter fantasy or actual, cock-eyed planning), you are 100% correct.

"Non-fetishising," Harriet @41? Aren't you fetishising this woman's relationship problems by verbally inserting yourself into them? You are the one who is being crass here with your self-centred, objectifying comments. In your head is exactly where this fantasy belongs.

“...acknowledge that [he is a fucking douchebag you convinced yourself to have romantic feelings for, because you were afraid of being alone], break up, and move forward alone.”

Oh, I get it. He’s “poly.” He’s liberated, not just a selfish twat. Most guys want to fuck around. Those who want to and can, do. The rest get into committed relationships, then whine about wanting to be “poly.” Fuck this motherfucker (or, rather, stop fucking him).

You deserve better. And better might mean: having friends instead of a romantic partner. Even a fuckbuddy who admits he’s sleeping around would be more respectful to you than this bullshit.

Wow, Centrists @43. So someone who, as you yourself say, wants to fuck around like "most guys," brings it up with his long-term partner, then backs off for multiple YEARS, only raising it again when she asks for a lifelong legal commitment she knows he's not keen on making, is a douchebag? But not the person who says she is willing to be open, but that agreeing to a timeline of the next five YEARS is an "ultimatum"? What letter did you read?

@40: That read seems a bit off the mark to me, re: her partner being manipulative. He brought up ENM once, years ago, and she had a meltdown. I could certainly understand being a bit gun-shy in the future and only voicing my desires under pressure of a radical change.
Some people think that an emotional response to distress is a-ok, while others find it to be representative of some form of dysregulation. Having been in a position like this man, I imagine he might have, after her initial meltdown, just resigned himself to the relationship not changing; it was, in effect, "good enough". When she proposed a change to get what she wanted (marriage), as she should have, he responded with what what would make him happy (ENM), as he should have.
I think what she's facing is that this relationship was never what he fully wanted, but what he was willing to live with. And she, apparently, realized the same thing. But she's unwilling to see his side.
That said, I agree that they should break up. But he's not being manipulative, he's saying what's important to him, as she did.

"We both have concerns about marriage that have led us to leave the question alone for the bulk of our relationship . . . He said the reason he's been hesitant about marriage is largely because he's interested in exploring poly . . . Several years ago, he expressed interest in exploring ethical non-monogamy . . . He doesn't want to marry me until I can tell him what this all will look like and when."

I find it rather odd that anyone reading PPUP's own words would find Mr. Ppup was issuing "ultimatums" or being unreasonable. He has done, and is doing, what we tell people to do all the time: tell your partner what you want, don't pressure your partner to do things with which they are uncomfortable, define the sex life you want with a partner before getting married.

Open or closed relationships are a fundamental choice in relationship models, and that is too big of decision to push off until after the wedding if one partner has already stated they want a non-monogamous relationship.

PPUP has said: "My hope has been that my interest would continue to develop somewhat organically, in a way that allows the two of us to explore it together in a positive, healthy way—when we both feel ready.)" But given the SLLOTD we read, it is all to easy to imagine PPUP telling Mr. Ppup a few years after the wedding, "I really hoped that I would come to want to explore non-monogamy, but I see now that I just don't."

Slow ENM person with kids reporting in
It works exactly the same, except you can't host most of the time.
Kids know our play partners as our close friends, and we don't discuss sex with them, just as we don't discuss how dad fucks mom in the ass. Or vice versa. Never understood why this was a problem for other people. Kids understand friends, kids understand parties, kids understand sleepovers.
Also, kids understand platonic touch - or at least they should - so embraces or "sitting too close to dads friend" doesn't register as a oddity.

As for LW - it's pretty clear that she is sabotaging this by running out the clock on him and he had way more patience than i would. 40 isn't the end of the world, of course, but I definitely understand his wish to get on it while bodies of his and his probable partners are fresher, libidos are higher and all that. Also, if they were talking about open, not, say, swinging - he, a presumably straight guy, is already against pretty hard odds and it looks like he knows that.

And "biological clock" is a spot-on analogy for this, no one would even think something else happens if it was "she wants a kid by 40, he wants to warm up to the idea of kids organically so he thinks she shouldn't have set clear timelines".

And yes, i think that a desire to have a kid is no more valid than a desire to have threesomes.
Also, a desire to burn money for a corny ceremony (and the opportunity to burn more down the road) is way less valid.

"I'll only marry you if you insist on getting married- and only if you guarantee that I can fuck a lot of people before my mid life crisis starts."

The man is actually responsible to be clear before getting into anything that could lead to a big misunderstanding, and the woman seems like she would not do well in an open marriage anyway without extremely clear and specific terms (and lots and lots and lots of conversation).

Also the woman's reasons for wanting to get married? Unless it feels right for both of them, it's kinda weird. I mean, who wants to marry someone who is indifferent about getting married?

Sounds like he's making the marriage something he'll do FOR her but only if he doesn't have to tie himself down into anything. Which again, is fine- good on the guy for being clear- but does seem he needs to shit or get off the pot. But it seems like we are putting a lot of mental gymnastics on an old problem- same story, new lingo. I bet what's going on is that he has this idea of how he wants this open relationship but doesn't know how to find it and so here he is, staying where he's at because it's what he's got but insistent on keeping his options open.

It's up to the LW what to do. I'd suggest moving on.

@20 / MythicFox: I took it as, "This is a milestone I'd like to reach before I get to a certain point in my life," awkwardly put in terms he thought she might relate to. I don't see manipulation so much as trying to help her understand his perspective.

@LW - If you're going to marry this guy, explore poly first. Your guy has told you this is the price of admission. There are two main decisions you need to make separate from him. Sit down by yourself and have a long think:
1) Do you want to be in a relationship with this guy? Because this guy is poly. Your job is to accept that about him, and decide if you want a life with him and his to be determined poly ways. If yes, proceed to 2:
2) This guy is poly. But that doesn't mean you personally need to date anybody else. So, choice A: you both date other people. Choice B: he dates other people and you don't. There is no right choice. There is the one that sounds like a fun time.

Forget about fair. Forget about expectations. In your heart of hearts, what do you want? If it requires him to make a monogamous commitment to you, mourn it, and break up, and then when you're feeling a little better, find someone who wants that.

If you want to be with this guy, this poly guy, there are lots of skills to work on! So get started: Communication skills, scheduling skills, decision making skills. No time like the present. Do not under any circumstances wait until after the marriage to start learning.

re: anxiety, feeling stifled, etc
I'm thinking what happened is you got excited about marrying him. You finally felt good about the plan, and then the plan changed and you were sad about how your vision of how things were going to go isn't actually how things are going to go. Give yourself a minute to feel sad about it. Its ok to mourn something you thought was a thing and isn't a thing. You feel how you feel. Lean into it. Then, find a way forward.

@9 Lavagirl
re: how poly and kids works - it works like everything else, but the devil's in the details.
I'm married (19 years), have a long distance relationship (10 years), and a toddler. Prior to my kid, my LDR and I would take turns visiting each other once a month. Post baby, the LDR has done the vast majority of the traveling to me. When he visits, we play with the baby, we go to the park, we hang out, we have dinner. The main difference between his visits and any other friend's visits is in the evening once the kid's asleep, we have some alone time. In our particular variety of poly, my LDR is not in a parental role, so the co-parenting duties are still between me and my husband. So in my case, that's no different than your garden variety monogamous married with kids setup. re: "How did you not fall in love with others, especially when babies are teething and keeping you up all night, making everyone a little stressed." - oh gods I didn't have that kind of time. I couldn't possibly have spent time on a new relationship with a new baby at the same time. Yeah, no. That would not have worked for me, but then carving time out for myself has been something I've found tricky generally. TLDR; you talk through the logistics, and you make certain the kids needs are attended to.

LW, you sound like someone who is trying to convince yourself you'd be okay, under the perfect circumstances and things going at just the right pace with no pressure whatsoever, with ENM. But you aren't. And the way I know is at the first point he made it clear it was important and he didn't want to make a lifelong commitment without it, you jumped on the opportunity to say "that, THAT is the reason I'm uncomfortable with it! I would have been fine if it weren't for that!" But you would have found another "that" when it became real regardless, and your guy senses that. You're being disingenuous, to yourself and to him. And if you're not, prove it to yourself and him BEFORE you bring up marriage again.

Let's use the kids thing as an analogy. Five years ago, you talked a bit about kids, and he said "Absolutely not, I have no interest in having kids." And you were okay with it. But as time went on, and you hung out with your friends with kids, you found having kids is something you want to do in your life. You're happy with your relationship now, but having kids is something you really want, and each time you have discussions with your partner, you think about how much you want to spend your life with them, but can't see yourself going childless for your whole life. And then he proposes to you.

You say "Having kids is something important to me, and I can't marry you with you not wanting kids."

He says "But I'm willing to consider having kids, that's something that I could go with in time."

You say "I'm not getting any younger, so I'd like to start the baby making in the next five years."

He says "You're putting so much pressure on me and setting ultimatums!"

This is something important to him, and you being willing to test the waters at some indeterminate date with no real assurance it will even go beyond (or even up to!) a first time is not nearly adequate. And as previously stated, the offer seems disingenuous anyway, ESPECIALLY when offered only when proposing a lifelong commitment.

The ONLY reasonable thing for you (other than ending it) is fast tracking your "someday I'll consider it" to "let's see what works now" and start easing into it. Because if it turns out you're not okay with it, you won't be Lucy pulling the football away when Charlie Brown tries to kick it by getting him to marry you with a promise of ENM only to rescind that promise later.

@52
Good analogy. And yes, they have to test it now.

Another thought:
"My hope has been that my interest would continue to develop somewhat organically, in a way that allows the two of us to explore it together in a positive, healthy way—when we both feel ready" sounds like it translates to "My hope was that -I- would meet someone else that I wanted to bang." And she hasn't. And it hasn't occurred to her that -he has-, but that her timeline is holding him back. Perhaps after X number of years, if she hasn't met anyone she wants to bang, she should accept that she just isn't wired that way. She can allow him his freedom without dating other people herself just for the sake of it.

If the LW hasn't done poly by now she isn't going to. She will always find an excuse to put it off. There's nothing wrong with that but a lot of people have a tendency to say they are open to something when they know in reality they are not. Its easy enough to get into and try things out without it being forced.

The guy's comments about the biological clock are odd unless he is referring to having kids. People can start, change or end their sexual lifestyles at any time. I know plenty of people of all genders who are having more, hotter, kinkier, wilder sex in their 50s and 60s than they were in their 20s and 30s. But the key thing is wanting to have it and it doesn't sound like the LW does. Best to find the relationship that works best for her.

It's possible I'm projecting a bit since I see so much of myself in this letter, but this really strikes me as an anxiety issue not specifically a relationship issue. I mean, LW if you're reading this, you said you want to spend the rest of your life with this man who you have been with for years but you feel a lot of hesitation in getting married? You didn't mention any reasons for your hesitation, and I suspect that's because you know those reasons aren't entirely rational. This crippling fear of deadlines certainly is not entirely rational.

Being unable to make up my mind about anything is a component of anxiety I really struggle with. Decision anxiety (and anxiety in general) something you really need to work on. Not just for the sake of your relationship but because it will cripple your life in general. And yeah, it's your problem and not his. He made a decision and you came up with a bunch of rationalizations for not making a decision. Trust me, it's just not a good way to live and you have to do something about this if you aren't already doing something.

@44 - Where you perhaps see an enlightened discussion of reciprocal sexual freedom, I see just a cliché divergence in impulse as tired and worn as time and a form of emotional blackmail against a hypothetical he never had the wherewithal to bring about in the first place. He’s afraid of missing out on all that sweet, sweet poon he’d assuredly be slaying if not for the lifelong commitment to a woman who (thinks she) loves him.

There’s a term for that, and it’s not “poly.” It’s “cold feet.”

After he strongarms her from “I’m open to exploring it” to “poly as a condition of matrimony,” my money is on he’ll make her recruit his partners for him. He’s a chump and a coward.

@20 and @50 I took it as him finding a nice way of saying that he wants to get to this before he and the demographic he can/wants to attract get less attractive. That's a hard thing to say because it's mostly/fully physical but if that's the kind of ENM he's interested in, it's the primary focus.

I'm 34 and monogamous (though I'd be fine going open marriage if my wife wanted and would probably be into it myself but don't really care enough to broach the tough subject). If I were in an open marriage though, realistically I'm not going after anyone who is 18 or 20 or 25 because that's kind of gross (for me, totally cool if other people want to date young). But I'd be very happy with the partners available in my 27 to 45 range. If you make me 45, suddenly I'm looking at a 35 to 55 range and there are probably less people I'm interested in (though who knows, I'm not 45 yet). I'm definitely less likely to attract people since I've gotten older and fatter and more cantankerous.

That's what biological clock meant to me. He wants to get some strange and he's wanting to do it while he's young and can comfortably attract and sleep with women who are young enough and/or attractive enough that it fulfills his fantasies. Nothing wrong with that but if he's trying to bring it up to his partner, biological clock is probably a decent way of saying that without saying it. He's speaking her language as she contemplates kids.

Mr. PPUP here.
Thanks to everyone who submitted thoughtful appraisals and helpful suggestions.
Special thanks to Dan for being such a saint who really helped me figure out who I am and what I want in love and sex.
To clarify, the "biological clock" comment referred to me starting to feel older and less attractive, and to the diminishing pool of potential poly friends and partners.
I started getting interested in ENM for myself years ago thanks to Dan as well as free-thinking writers and artists, mostly from the 60's and 70's.
The first time I suggested to PPUP that I'd like to try it, it went very badly and I chose our relationship over my desire to explore ENM. I continued to pay that price of admission for 5 years. I would tell her about cool books I read that involved multilateral marriages, or non-mono Lovecast calls etc., but I never asked her to go there for me because I didn't want to pressure her or lose her.
Now that we're talking marriage and I'm forced to think about "til death do us part," I decided I'm not ready to commit to lifelong monogamy and probably never will be. It was time to have an uncomfortable conversation.
We're not breaking up, at least not without doing some counseling and serious soul searching. I would like to marry her. I do want her in my life forever. I just can't in good conscience tell her that she will always be my one and only.
Thanks again to all the thoughtful responders, and to the haters I say 'The devil take you!'

@48 Way too much hate on the wedding industry. A wedding can be a corny materialistic waste of time. Or it can be one of the best days of your life, when you have everyone you know and love (plus Uncle Ed) in one room with you. I had a magical wedding that was exactly the parts I wanted and exactly the parts I didn't want (one exception: I blew it and didn't come up with processing into the ceremony venue to The Imperial March until two weeks later). It hasn't kept me from doing anything I want to in life financially or bankrupted anyone's parents.

People love to hate on the wedding industry and yeah, a lot of it is crap. More people should think about their motives for doing things and the dudes have to get way more involved so it doesn't become fairy princess day. But overall, it's a nice thing that can be done well. Let's stop crapping on people because they want a wedding.

@43 Who hurt you?

@59 Best of luck to both of you!

@Centrists - it seems pretty clear that you're telling yourself your own story, rather than the one written in the letter. By this standard, it's literally impossible for a man to 'fairly' be interesting in poly under any condition, since this one - where the guy asks, accepts no for an answer for 5 years and is willing to wait 5 more years, all while his partner proclaims that he's above board, loving, etc - is about as close to the "perfect scenario" as humanly possibly. What would it take for you to see a man as something other than a cowardly douchebag manipulator MF who should be D A?

"He doesn't want to marry me until I can tell him what this all will look like and when." Is the line that stuck out to me the most.

It sounds like LW was raised with the default assumption of monogamy and freaked out at the knowledge that it wasn't what her life partner wanted. Since her interest hasn't "organically grown" from familiarizing herself in the past 5 years, I doubt it will in the next 5. But she's still willing to talk about it as a price of admission to marrying him. So my advice to @59 is to write up (literally) what his ideal relationship looks like, and not ask the non-poly person to define the poly relationship.

@46; I wasn’t talking about the issue, I was talking about the behaviour around the issue.
I don’t like ultimatums, and if anyone tries to lay one on me, they will get a resounding ‘ fuck off.’
He’s using words which relate to women and fertility.
His tactics are manipulative, and controlling. Not what one wants from an intimate partner. His sense to hold off on any wedding is a good one, because he’s not in this relationship in an authentic adult way. Ultimatums! Fuck that.

@63 - If a guy had a history of ethical nonmonogamy prior to committed relationship. If both partners discussed mutual interest in it early in the relationship.

@60
"Let's stop crapping on people because they want a wedding."

yeah, no
I've been to a few weddings. Hell, i've been to one amazing one.
It's still just a party. I like parties. Is a themed party worth a lifetime of consequences? Nope.
Especially not in this case, when it's not really "i want a white dress party". And it kinda never is.

It's a trap, and a shitty one, because having been right all along doesn't really bring you joy when you both are in a retirement home. And kudos to him for recognizing that for what it is.

Also, my heart goes out to that "poly people" they befriended.
Because i just know it's the cute swinger couple who got talked into "lets become friends and when my wife sees you're not some perv creeps we might advance to something else wink-wink nudge-nudge'"
Or i might be projecting, so

@66 ahh, the old "grandfather clause" - you can't discuss poly/enm... unless you've already discussed. Amazing.

@68 - They’ve been together for 10 years. “Several” years ago, he says he’s interested in non-monogamy. She’s clearly got concerns. He somehow lives his life without non-monogamy. She proposes. Oh my god he can’t live without a specific plan from her as to how and when they’ll be non-monogamous, because he has to have this thing he’s lived all these years without.

I stand by what I said. This isn’t some poor polyamorous guy who’s had an awakening. He’s just a guy who’s scared of losing something he’s never had. Scared of commitment. He’s not a persecuted poly. He’s a fucking cliché. Don’t take it personally.

And hey - if he’s sincere, she’s not right for him anyway. Then her bold proud poly dude needs to head out on his own and be all poly and shit.

I've said it before about other guys and will say it again about this one: he does have a biological clock. Good looking, young men have a lot more options. Middle aged men who might not be very hot, see the options shrink by the year. So, he's right to raise this issue. I agree with others, she's not really interested. He's smart, he's not entering into a marriage until he knows he marriage will work in ways that will make him happy. If she doesn't share the same goals, the marriage will end in divorce. But I can also add that he's playing with fire. Her childbearing clock might also be ticking but her opportunities for sex outside the marriage will continue long past his unless he's hot.

It's not going to work. DTMFA or DTPNPA (my vote is for MF because he said he'd marry you before adding his condition), but either way, move on.

Re how people date while having young kids at home: I dated outside my marriage while caring for a toddler and a baby, and it was difficult, but possible to do if you are sufficiently motivated! My husband often took care of the kids while I was out.

The kids have grown up knowing that Mommy goes out once or twice a week. I think it's a good model for them to understand that women get to have their own lives, apart from child-rearing.

Over the years, the kids have met most of my lovers, whom I introduce as friends. Kids understand looking people and wanting to spend time with them, so none of this is weird.

I think Mr. Pupp(?) has been a downright saint, and that he should make a FetLife profile and attend some kink parties before the end of 2019. It can take awhile for hetero guys to find another lady, especially if Lady #1 is giving off signals that scare potential new ladies away. So best to start sooner than later. Smart move to settle this all now, before marriage.

Mr. PPUP @59,. I've read your comment now and I guess I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and amend my advice to your soon-to-be ex:

PPUP, Dump the Perfectly Nice Person Already.

Mr. PPUP, what you're insisting on and what she can tolerate do not overlap. If you really need the poly action, you both need to move on

@50/XiaoGui: Unfortunately, though, without knowing his intent (and described via an email after the fact), 'awkwardly putting it in terms she might relate to' and 'manipulating her by putting it in terms she'll relate to' appear identical. That said, you've got a point and I'm willing to acknowledge that either interpretation is valid, barring further information.

@59. oldrolo. Do you want PPUP to be involved when you have sex with other people? (To swing? To go to parties or play with couples or special guests?). If not, why not take the lead yourself in looking into ENM? You have said enough to reassure your partner: that you want to marry her; that you want her to be in your life forever. Provided she believes you, the fears causing her to put a stay on your exploration are (most likely) of jealousy and the discomfort she may feel when you date others. These could be things worse in the expectation than the actuality. Why not move forward, telling her as much as (you've agreed) she needs to know?

Something needs to happen or you're stalemated: you withholding marriage and your partner withholding openness.

This man is going to get what he wants. Either soon or within the next five years. The only real choice available to the LW, is when it will happen.
This is not negotiation, this is a forgone conclusion.

@72. Dianasquiver. Well said--informative about yourself and big-hearted.

On the question of whether we should crab the guy--oldrolo--for using the expression 'biological clock' for his desire to have extramural sex with younger women, I say no. Perhaps he was just trying to express his desires in terms PPUP would understand, or that resisted the easy assumption that wanting to fuck round is a less noble urge than being moved to procreate. And it's not as if there aren't many non-contentious gender-switching or -blending popular expressions (e.g. 'women get lady-boners for guys that are good with kids').

@69. Centrists. You give someone no credit for wanting to explore poly, but bottling the impulse for a while to commit to an exclusive relationship. To me, someone clearly communicating this, and observing it, deserves credit. You may also exaggerate how many straight men want to play the field (while in a relationship). The only way, for you, primary poly relationships would get off the ground would be if both partners laid their poly cards on the table at the outset. This is restrictive. It denies one partner coming round when they see (in the course of discussion and exploration) what poly might involve. In effect, it denies change and growth.

To oldrolo, I'd say that maybe your fears about missing out on younger women are misplaced. I've had sex with women in their 20s (and men in their 70s) outside my main relationship. Go in hope--hoping for 'yes' and always being sensitive to the possibility of 'no' being the answer.

Best of luck to you both.

Oldrolo/Mr PPUP @59: Thanks for checking in. Hope your inevitable breakup goes as amicably as can be hoped and you both move on to more compatible partners.

Sporty @63: I agree. Centrists' dual assertions that "most men" want non-monogamy and that this man is a "douchebag" for asking for it point either to a female-held belief that all men are inherently douchebags, or a male experience of feeling like he himself had to forsake all others, but did so grudgingly rather than willingly, and resents any man who successfully negotiates otherwise -- if he has to suffer silently, then all men should. Larry @61 nailed it in three.

Lava @65: Does Mr PPUP's post @59 change your opinion? Verbalising one's needs is not manipulative, controlling or an "ultimatum." Again, if PPUP's asking for marriage is a-okay, why isn't Mr PPUP's asking for openness?

Centrists @66: Oh, so there is a deadline for realising one doesn't want to be restricted to monogamy? As Lava says, fuck that. People grow and learn about themselves all the time. ENM has become more acceptable in the past decade. So what you're saying is that the only way to not be a douchebag if one realises, several years into a relationship, that they don't want monogamy is to dump the perfectly nice person -- who might also be having thoughts along those lines, hello -- instead of talking to them about it? And being willing, like Mr PPUP, to take no for an answer? What a ridiculous attitude. At least I agree with your conclusion @69.

Diana @72: Fetlife is not a dating site, and there is no evidence Mr PPUP is kinky. I think you meant Tinder?

If she wants to marry him so much, what Lava says @76 will happen.

Oldrolo@59, good to see you have been brought into the picture and glad you appear to have dropped the ultimatum.
Good luck to both of you.

@78 - A guy “discovers and learns” he’s interested in non-moniogamy when he turns 12 or 13. Wow, what a discovery. There may be no deadline to pursuing it, but there is a deadline for being sensitive to someone else’s wishes and desires, if you have someone who’s developed feelings for you and you really care about that person. That deadline is every goddamn day.

On a practical level, the relationship he’s in must have value to him: he’s been in it for ten years. Should he put the theoretical value of nonmonogamy above the value of that relationship? Or should he take her at her word and let her explore nonmonogamy on her own terms, knowing it may never happen? If he really cared about her, the latter.

Take nonmonogamy out of the equation for a second. I really want to be an astronaut. I tell my SO: I won’t get married to you unless you tell me when and how we’re moving to Cape Canaveral. My SO asks: “We’ve been together 10 years, and you’ve worked at Starbucks the entire time. Why would you make your relationship towards me contingent on me actively realizing your supposedly deeply held (and by the way, cliché) desire that has been no part of your life for the last ten years?”

And then she should say: “Good luck in Florida.”

@78 - Also, Mr. PuPP is not taking no for an answer. That’s the whole central point of the letter. He won’t marry her, unless she not only says yes to ENM, but yes and how and when.

@67 A wedding is not a lifetime of consequences. A wedding is "we probably need to find a lawyer in order to break up". You're confusing childbirth with the wedding bouquet toss. And people do that without getting married all the time.

@81. Centrists. Your premiss is that an exclusive partner's 'wishes and desires' re nonmonogamy are invariant. Why should this be so? In particular, why shouldn't nonmonogamy be a 'no' in the initial stages of a relationship, because it's felt by the monogamous-by-choice partner to imperil the bond, and then a 'perhaps', a 'tell-me-more', a 'let's-explore', later on, because the couple have so much together (a home, coordinated careers, shared finances, possibly children) that opening the relationship is unlikely to risk it?

Centrists @81: What 12- or 13-year old is mature enough to know what type of relationship they are interested in? That's ridiculous. 12- and 13-year-old boys simply discover they have hormones. This isn't the same thing.
You're also contradicting yourself when you say that the deadline for being "someone else’s wishes and desires" is "every goddamn day" and when you say it's OK to discuss a desire for non-monogamy "early in the relationship," @66. Where you also state that both partners must bring it up. Simultaneously? One, two, three, go? What? How is Partner A supposed to know whether Partner B is interested unless one of them brings it up?

You're also silent on why Mr PPUP is a douchebag for bringing up non-monogamy a second time, after PPUP said no (five years previously), but PPUP isn't a douchebag for bringing up marriage when Mr PPUP said he wasn't interested. To rephrase, "We’ve been together 10 years, and we've been happily unmarried the entire time. Why would you make your relationship towards me contingent on me actively realizing your supposedly deeply held (and by the way, cliché) desire that has been no part of your life for the last ten years?” Why should he not then say, "Good luck on Tinder"?

*for being "sensitive to someone else's wishes and desires." Copypaste fail.

Larry @83: A marriage (not to be confused with a wedding) IS a lifetime of consequences. Even if you get divorced, if you were foolish enough to change your name, you may still need to present your marriage and/or divorce certificate as proof of identity. Your spouse's financial decisions can last far beyond the marriage. There may be stigma, in some conservative circles. And there are some chilling cases here in the UK where decades-divorced spouses were awarded more money after their exes got rich.
https://www.ft.com/content/1ead640a-2efa-11e6-bf8d-26294ad519fc
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/02/06/court-orders-man-increase-payments-wife-lost-bulk-divorce-settlement/
https://citywire.co.uk/funds-insider/news/divorce-when-a-former-spouse-wants-more-money/a453493

The only lifetime of consequences a wedding may have is paying off exorbitant bills, if the couple chose to go that route.

Centrists...

Why don't you describe a scenario in which one CAN participate in ENM/Poly? What's an acceptable way to ask your partner?

@ Centrists Rule the World today

Wow, that's some seething hatred of male sexuality you have going there.... I realize women are leered at and perved on from the time they're pre-teens, and there's the old double standard of "stud vs. slut", but to blame Mr. PPUP for that is no more fair than blaming a current partner for offenses perpetrated by old ones. (and to put that blame on 12 and 13 year old boys?!. That's low).

Funny that most of the people I've met who actively pursued ethical non-monogamy are actually women. It may be shocking to you to learn that women have every bit as much of a desire to explore sexuality with a variety of people as men do.

@79, Fan. In the original letter, she did describe an ultimatum, given his words. See@76. That there now seems a shift in this man’s presentation of his wishes/ is it a need to want multiple lovers?/ is fine by me. Much better way to talk about a relationship.

Correction. Fan @78.

@90 she described it as an ultimate, but both her account and from the boyfriend (@59 oldrolo) seem to agree, and it's not an ultimatum in any meaningful sense. She's had 5 years, she has 5 more. 10 years to agree on the fundamental nature of a relationship is not an ultimatum.

Nope, Lava, I still don't see "He doesn't want to marry me until I can tell him what this all will look like and when" as an ultimatum. I see it as sensible. She hasn't said no to the open relationship; she's said she -might- be interested but she can't give any assurances; she feels pressured by a timeline of five long years. She's equivocating and he has the right to call her out and find out what she means before he makes that kind of commitment. As others have said, this is no different to pressing someone who's evaded questions on having kids if having kids is important to one. One shouldn't get married until one is sure, and until she poops or gets off the pot, he can't be sure.

To marry or not is a red herring Fan. Per the original letter, he wants an ENM relationship. She can either give it to him soon or within the next five years. Like I said, her only choice in this story was when. Not what I’d call a free and equal exchange. She may never be ok with it. Again, per his original plan is ‘fine, I’ll still go ahead with it.’ What room is there in this for her to be a free agent? Coercion is not healthy.
Best if the man or woman wants another lifestyle, strongly, that they part ways.
It would seem with this man, it’s not such a strong urge. He’s dropped his time line to say he doesn’t know if he can commit to long term monogamy. Hey, I think every couple marrying should say this.
Good work team. Seems a bit of tough love group therapy helped.

You see coercion Lava, I see compromise. For her to get something she wants, she gives him something he wants. To marry or not to marry is exactly what prompted Mr PPUP to examine his priorities and admit to himself that he can't put this need of his off for an indeterminate amount of time. She's the one being manipulative by asking for something she wants but knows he's not keen on, while refusing to move forward on his needs. She won't give him an answer, how is that fair to him? I hope they do both move on to find partners whose priorities are more aligned to their own.

Not manipulative, at least not intentionally so. She is being selfish.

Fan, if a person can’t do it, let go of monogamy, that’s their truth. It’s not selfishness to know your limits. If that changes for her, great, if not.. he was still going to go ahead. That’s the only area I had issue with.
It was looking like coercion, that’s why she wrote the letter. She wasn’t comfortable being caught in a trap.

oldrolo @59

Thanks for posting! I was like PPUP, anxious about trying non-monogamy. We'd been married over a decade and our kids were around middle school years when my husband brought up his desire for sexual variety.

It wasn't easy emotionally, but over time I came to see he was right -- having sex with someone else (or feelings for someone else) didn't change how we felt about each other. I got to see that because we jumped right in, dating together and then dating separately when I realized I preferred not to see him have sex with other people.

So I recommend letting PPUP know you're going to start dating in the next few weeks, and she is welcome to do the same. If she decides to end it, you'll find other compatible people with whom to build a life.

LavaGirl @9 - the mechanics of dating with children at home weren't that complicated. We managed by budgeting for babysitters & hotel rooms. You could also manage by having separate bedrooms. Or dating people who can host. Or frequenting sex-positive parties and mostly playing there. Or some combination.

yasunori @48: "Kids understand friends, kids understand parties, kids understand sleepovers."

Indeed.

For the record, anyone can bring up nonmonogamy whenever they want, and people’s desires can change; but if you value your partner and they don’t share your interests, forcing those interests is a douchebag move. He should have kept making those poly friends and letting her get comfortable on her own schedule (or not), not taken back the passive assent to marriage until she agreed to ENM.

Both of them sound like shitty communicators who don’t know what they want. Oh, marriage isn’t that important to me. Wait, no, it is! Wait, I want to be poly!!

Okay, sure, whatever. It’s great that we’re all liberated these days, but if it all it does is make people even more conviced they’re entitled to their desires and unrequired to reconcile their desires effectively and compassionately with those of people in their lives, then it’s a step backwards, not a step forward.

And men’s embrace of polyamory is just another chapter in shaming women for their sexual preferences. Most women bias pretty heavily towards monogamy. Men tell them they’re prudes when they don’t give it up easily enough. They tell them they’re sluts when they do give in (less so now, which is good). Now men in committed relationships develop this sudden interest in polyamory. I knew a guy - not successful with the ladies overall, but knew a woman who claimed to be poly. I think they fucked a few times, and while that was going on, he was super-poly. I’m sure he was a tre believer who saw the light, just like ol’ Mr. PPuP, and not just an opportunistic horndog.

I don’t see she’s any more selfish than he is being, Fan. Both want what they want, and if they do love each other and want a life together going forward, compromise is the name of the game. No sneaky bs games. Or they part. As long as they sort this with as much clarity as possible before babies.
Yes, people change their minds after babies. Wonder why. It’s still best to go into that phase on the same page.