I've known a few guys who were into homeless men (and who weren't just fantasizing about it), so I wouldn't say the letter's fake.

The only thing that sounds odd to me is that they took a shortcut (presumably to get to the ice cream place faster), but then decided to stop long enough for her to make out with the guy. That's not what shortcuts are for.


LW should try randomly making out with a Personal Trainer, Wall Street Bro, Bartender, or something. 19 year old college girls and homeless men in private is almost never a story that has a happy ending; and it seems highly possible that her fetish could be more related to the anonymity rather than homelessness. Heck, at 19, she might just like kissing in general.

Also, carry condoms with you at all times, a few RU-486s, a diaphragm, nuva ring, and a female condom. And a whistle.


This is a fake letter so i won't bother.


It could be about engaging with the unpermitted, the depraved. (I mean that the wanting could be seen as depraved in our society, not the homeless person!) Yes, this is objectification. But if she can understand it more deeply maybe she can find depravity in other more power-balanced forms. Not that there's anything wrong with homeless or marginalized people per se. And it could be that she wants something more marginal for herself as well, which is also pretty normal at this age. LW, I recommend that you give yourself permission to explore a bit before you settle.


Obviously fake.
"When I was 15, a girlfriend and I were walking to get ice cream and we took a shortcut through a wooded park type area... My girlfriend dared me to...and to both of our surprise I did"
I don't care what the topic is, that's not a real story and it's not written by a 19-year-old woman. It sounds like a 50-to-70-year-old man who also has a question for Dan about young teens at a sleepover eating banana splits who dared each other to french kiss the host girl's aunt's new husband who was watching Frasier reruns in the den.


The making out with a homeless guy in the woods (of all places) does seem a bit odd, but I'm not going to guess whether its fake and will just find follow the hypothetical rule.

I am amused by Dan's thoughts on power imbalances and exploitation of homeless men by a 19-year-old girl (yes, I know she's an adult, but barely). I think he may have drifted out of touch with the realities of cis-heterosexual community. Cis men are almost always bigger, stronger and more aggressive than cis women. They're also usually hornier and more sexually indiscriminate. Cis women almost never rape cis men. Almost all rapes are committed by people with penises whose brains developed in the presence of relatively high levels of testosterone.

A 19-year-old college girl working at a soup kitchen has no power to intimidate her average male patron. And, having been a cis heterosexual male all of my life, I think that it's a safe bet that most homeless guys at a soup kitchen would be pleased to learn that a 19-year-old college student volunteering there (a) likes to rub one out fantasizing about having sex with the guys she serves there and (b) once made out with a homeless guy in the woods. Then most of them there without a partner would probably hit on her, because duh.


In some cases, posting obviously fake letters is harmless. But in this case, even if all resemblance to actual individuals living or dead is purely coincidental, even as a hypothetical it’s a little too punch-downward-y for my taste.


Agree with those who say it's probably fake, however there are plenty of real life scenarios with vulnerable populations such as the disabled, elderly and kids where sexual predators are problem- so it's possible that there might be someone with this type of fantasy. Having a fantasy and acting on it are two different things, but I find it disturbing to think of someone putting themselves in a position where they can become aroused by homeless people. The homeless are often vulnerable in some way, whether they are mentally ill or suffer from addiction or other health problems. If this is real (not likely), I think a new job and some therapy are in order. Homeless are susceptible to every type of abuse, including sexual. If she were to act on these fantasies, she would be a predator, in the sense that she has power over the people she serves, who are dependent upon her for assistance in receiving food and shelter.


@9 - post of the year! I want to see that in the next edition of the OED.


dcp123 @6: you’re assuming that all rape involves physical violence. It doesn’t, and a homeless person is extremely vulnerable to certain kinds of pressure that have nothing whatsoever to do with how physically strong she is. If she manipulated the situation so that, for example, the guy she was hitting on was convinced he’d lose one of his very few food sources if he didn’t do what she wanted (and possibly be blacklisted at other shelters and soup kitchens, too, if she worked hard enough to smear his reputation, or even be accused of trying to attack her - who are the police and other soup kitchen volunteers going to believe?), that’s very definitely still nonconsensual sex, i.e. rape. If he has no choice, it doesn’t matter if that choice was removed by physical violence, or some other type of threat (and, “sleep with me or I’ll make sure you starve to death” is a pretty freaking horrible threat).


dcp123 @6: Also, the idea that the homeless guys would all automatically want to sleep with her too is utter bullshit. Homeless guys can be asexual, gay, or just plain not interested in this particular woman, same as any other guy. They can be horribly stressed out and not want to even think about sex with anyone right now, or be shy and not want to put out right away.

The attitude that all men MUST want to have sex at all times with anything that moves is a huge part of why so few men will report a rape. Women have enough trouble getting the cops to believe they didn’t consent, but for men it’s almost impossible.


Predator or not LW, you are broken. Get some help.


This letter reminds me of that Lars Von Triers movie, which I don’t want to plug, because I do believe he has a misogynist slant on sexuality, but were this LW to have a follow-up I would half expect it to include salacious details about a man at the kitchen asking her to grab a handful of spoons.


The writer Sameul Delany published a book that was split into two parts; one part was about adult theaters in Times Square. He used to give homeless guys blowjobs in the theaters, so the homeless part isn't the issue that makes this letter read as fake. Rather, I'm just not seeing a 19 year old woman writing this one. Or maybe it was a real 19 year old and she's confused about where she volunteers or works. Really, she's in some hipster neighborhood perving over guys who look homeless but it's just a carefully manicured "shabby chic."


@Dan finally ended with the thought that first came into my mind: she is fantasizing about the power differential between herself and homeless men, and her behavior is coming up against ethical red lines.

Is such an interest obviously fake? In its exploration of power differentials, this seems to me to be the inverse of women who fantasize about evil scientists or doctors, kidnappers, or "rapists." In those fantasies, a woman is exploring her desire for sex from a position of mental safety because she is not casting herself as proactively wanting sex, whereas BUMS explores sex in fantasies in which she casts herself a position of safety of having highly unequal amounts of power so that she can completely control whatever sexual activity is happening.

As @Dan notes in his foot-fetish sales clerk example, it is important that no one be aware of the underlying sexual dynamic. I think someone in BUMS situation, who acknowledges her ulterior motive in getting into close proximity to objects of her sexual interest, would have a more difficult time meeting that criteria given the power dynamics at play. Since there are many ways to volunteer, I would say that someone in BUMS situation should move on to another form of community service.


She's the Robin Hood of Highgate...


@17 Which supports the idea that BUMS letter is fake. If she were real, and felt through her initial fetish with flying colors, there would be a bridge she would attempt to walk between her past and present situations.


What? The letter in which the LW (another young kid) lingeringly describes his preparations for having sex with a plunger is "real," but this one is "fake"? However do you make these distinctions?


Of course, as George Orwell pointed out so memorably in Down and Out in Paris and London, one thing that homeless people - homeless men in particular - are lacking in particular is, well, nookie. While failure and desperation might not be impediments to some men looking to take advantage of (or "rescue") women in distress, they are most assuredly not turn-ons for the astronomically large majority of straight women. So who knows? Maybe some homeless men really wouldn't give a damn about some 'power imbalance.' The'd be getting some when they'd given up on the idea months or even years ago.


Yes, likely fake, the ice cream hunting expedition at 15 didn’t make much sense, but if power dynamics is what drives this person then there are plenty other ways to express it. One can also have a designated ice cream hunting trip reenactment by teaming up with a designated person waiting in a designated wooded area for a designated make up session and beyond.


slomopom @ 18
She dines in Hampstead village


It's possible. A couple years ago, my doctor, who might have been trying to draw more information from me, mentioned that one of his patients was a man who only had sex with homeless men. Apparently was treated for many STDs, but that sounds like a generalization.


This letter is probably someone's fake taboo fantasy but I would like to point out it's estimated that about half of homeless people have jobs. Many homeless men also have wives and children. So you can't assume they are all desperate for sex.


@20 MartyVega: The setup and writing are obviously fake, it's not the perving-on-homeless-men concept that's too far-fetched. Two 15-year-olds are walking somewhere to get ice cream, that innocent childhood treat? She refers to her friend as "my girlfriend", a term that I've never heard a teenager use for a platonic pal? They take a shortcut through a wooded area? One dares the other to make out with someone they find there, without any reference to how the man responded or what happened afterwards? And what happened to the need for speed that triggered the shortcut in the first place? The sentence "common theme to help achieve release on many of my lonely high school nights"? None of this sounds real.


@12 exactly how I was thinking too.


Kaliope @12,

Are you going out of your way to show off how wrong you can be or are you insisting on ignoring obvious facts in service of the ideology of pretending that men and women are not just entitled to equal treatment, but are actually identical creatures?

"you’re assuming that all rape involves physical violence." No. I'm not. I have read the statistics. Almost all rapes are perpetrated by men. A cis woman raping a man of any type is so incredibly rare as to be almost irrelevant in any discussion of the dangers of rape. It's not just physical strength and size that are affected by development in the presence of higher levels of testosterone, the brain is also affected. The urge to rape is rare among women. Being born with testicles is strongly associated with aggression and almost all violent criminals were born that way.

But, hey, prove me wrong. Find me a story about the one woman in the history of the planet who has exploited her enormously powerful position as a soup kitchen volunteer to force a homeless man into non-consensual sex.


Kaliope @12 continued,

Also, homeless people face many hardships. Death by starvation isn't one of them, except in rare cases involving people whose untreated mental or physical illness may prevent them from eating. It may not always be easy to find healthful food, but finding plenty of food to ward off starvation food in the US is very easy. You know this, but please carry on pretending that you don't.

Kaliope @13,

"Also, the idea that the homeless guys would all automatically want to sleep with her too is utter bullshit." Oh, did I say that? Let's check. Nope. You're still full of shit. What I said was:

"I think that it's a safe bet that MOST homeless guys at a soup kitchen would be pleased to learn that a 19-year-old college student volunteering there (a) likes to rub one out fantasizing about having sex with the guys she serves there and (b) once made out with a homeless guy in the woods. Then MOST of them THERE WITHOUT A PARTNER would probably hit on her, because duh."

"Most" leaves plenty of room to not include gay and asexual men. It means more than 50%. And some gay (or even asexual) men might be flattered anyway, as I have always been by compliments from gay men, so they might also add to the majority I said would probably be "pleased" to know of her attraction. As for actually wanting to have sex with her, I said that "most" of the subset of homeless men who were there "without a partner" would probably hit on her. That was actually said largely facetiously and may not be true, but again the small portions of men who are gay, asexual, etc. do not rule out the possibility that "most" of the unpartnered men would "probably" hit on her. But, yeah, while men are very often interested in young women,

I don't actually know if more than half of the unpartnered men at the kitchen would go to the bother of hitting on her. Probably it would be under 50%, but the real point remains. Men almost never fear being raped by cis women because it almost never happens and most men would be flattered to know that a college-age young woman was objectifying and fantasizing about them.

Your continued pretense that men walk around in fear of being raped by young cis women is complete and total bullshit. But if you're part of some political club, movement, or religion that requires you to pretend you believe that bullshit, by all means, carry on spouting your nonsense. Far be it from me to interfere with your freedom to act like a damn fool.

Furthermore, go fuck yourself.

Girliegams @27, the above applies to you too.


@16 and 20, Thanks. Despite being in an obviously foul mood, I LOL'd.


@28 Asking for an example when it's already been explained why there are so few (cis men are ridiculously unlikely to report rape by cis women) while providing absolutely no backup for your own cavalcade of strong claims is a bit of a logical cul-de-sac. All we really need to acknowledge here is that there are more methods of coercion than physical. If one person has something that another person needs (food, shelter) then that first person has power over the second. ALL power can be abused.

Also, fucking chill. If I didn't know any better I'd say your brain has been marinading in rape juice a bit too long.


I love the ongoing debate about a 19 year old woman raping homeless men by using her position of power as Soup Kitchen Volunteer to coerce them into sex. We have people being told to fuck off, 'logical cul-de-sacs', and a growing concern about a dirth of unreported rapes of men by women.

The last one is less amusing and more infuriating. Men as a group don't need an excuse to shift the story of the #MeToo movement away from the cuture of male sexual entitlement.

In all reality, she probably doesn't have too much power over these Men, but regardless, she should obviously not allow the Soup Kitchen to become a sexualized environment for the same reasons a woman should not make sexual advances towards her employees. A lot can go wrong, and despite the asinine assertion that access to real food for the homeless is a laughable concern, it's grossly irresponsible to put someone at risk of losing one of the few resources available to them. If she wants to go take a shortcut to the ice cream parlor and proposition a homeless guy on the way I think that's fine.


19 year old girls perving out on homeless, probably unwashed (for weeks) guys in the soup kitchen... never happen! That’s what I thought. Until the Internet. Women fucking pigs. Women swallowing horse cum. And that’s some of the mellow stuff! So, yeah, girl! Stuff that cheesy weiner where the sun don’t shine and don’t bother brushing your teeth afterwards. You’ll be able to savor the memory for months!


can you point us to legit sites?


All the comments here denying men can be taken advantage of are disgusting. When anti-SJWs accuse feminists of thinking men are always the bad guys in every situation even extreme situations like the man being homeless this is what they are talking about. If you don't think male rape is serious you don't deserve to align yourself with the #MeToo movement.


@34~ What would make any zoophilia site “legit”? “Well, sir, if you REALLY want to find some highly-produced sheep-fucking where all the animals have signed waivers, check out “”...It’s not like I have encyclopedic knowledge of this stuff.


@kalliope 12, Scenario: A man older than the age of consent is forced by a woman to have sex. If he gets an erection and successfully has intercourse with the woman, is it rape or consensual sex? Would the erection itself be proof that the act was consentual?


@35 All the comments ... for example? Who is denying the possibility that a man can be taken advantage of?


@38 You said it's "infuriating" to be concerned about unreported rapes of men? So yeah you are denying a real problem and you even stated the reason is their gender, apparently only one gender at a time can be the focus of concern.


Juan @37 - Its been scientifically demonstrated that men can get erections because of stressful situations (like danger, threat of physical harm, etc.) which are unrelated to their sexual desires. So yes, male rape can happen.

I read about this years before the internet, so, sorry, I can't point to a particular study.



Emily Nagoski, a scientist, has done some fairly thought-provoking work about sex and sex-education largely focusing on the fact of the condition of a person's genitals not equalling consent (it's true the other way, see impotence and vaginal lubrication problems happening when a person has consented).

Men who swim against the tide of shaming report something very similar to what women reported thirty-odd years ago when concepts around rape culture were simply being brought out for the first time. "Drunk doesn't mean consent", "clothes don't mean consent", "being in a room with a person of the opposite sex or walking home with them doesn't mean consent," "freeze-response doesn't mean consent" etc. All these concepts had to be fought for, and likewise a man thinking "I really want to stop this but I'd actually have to hurt her to stop it", or "I woke up in the middle of the night with her having sex with me, but I must have wanted to or I'd have stopped it", or "I was drunk but it's the man's responsibility to make sexual choices so that must mean I chose to" (even if he really didn't), or "I'm a very young teenager and it's my teacher, but everything from Internet porn to the other boys is telling me I don't have the right to think of myself as anything but lucky," all need to be worked through. There's also a possibility that the woman gets off on the power imbalance itself, and that's making the man uncomfortable.

Rape of men or boys by women is a very murky business because it's likely to "feel uncomfortable" in a hidden way because of the shaming and the massive imbalance of men being more likely to be perpetrators. By the numbers, that's right, but it doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

And when it does happen, we should not mock male victims (which helps to perpetuate rape stereotypes) but inquire into the evidence, and if it holds up, treat that man as well as you would treat a female victim.


Do furries get more shit than plushies because people think it's weirder to fuck someone in a a stuffed annimal costume more than a stuffed animal, or simply because more people are aware of furries? I've always wondered.

Back on topic, I swear I read that story on ASSTR in a dozen different incarnations, so I'm on board with fake. On the other hand, fake letters and stroke stories come from real fantasies, so non-zero possibility that some people have actually done this (by the same providence that there's way more zoophilic, pedophilic, incestuous, snuff/dismemberment, etc. erotica and animated pornography than actual bestiality, child rape, incest, and sexualized murder/dismemberment, but sadly not a zero amount of any of the latter; and before anyone disputes the actual existence of sexualized snuff, the myth is MASS-MARKETED SEXUALIZED VIDEOS OF ACTUAL MURDERS, not that any sexualized murder ever happens; Jeffrey Dahmer is a famous case of a sexual murderer who sadly happened to have killed and eaten a friend of Dan's, while residing in my city).

The kink here is transgression of socialized power hierarchies and sexual norms, so basically a permutation of BDSM (homeless person/monied person being a little less extreme - though possibly more transgressive, thanks to normalization of BDSM - than slave/master in terms of power imbalance). I believe it exists and has seen expression by someone(s) more than I believe this particular story.

@20: Because makeshift dildos used by both sexes (and non-binary folks) are common to the point of possibly being a majoritarian practice among people who enjoy receptive insertion while fuckimg homeless people isn't? Search "Bayesian probability", and read up.


I had to look up Bayesian probability.
Thank you John Horstman. I learned something today!

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