Have you read much about attachment theory? I have similar issues and have discovered that I have some “avoidant attachment” traits. Most men seem overly needy to me, and because I’m on the opposite side of the neediness spectrum, it makes them even more needy towards me than they would be with less avoidant women, which makes things more like a “chase” than a healthy relationship. That may be the case for you as well. It really blows, but it can be worked through. Get some counseling. I’m a lot better now, but the struggle is still there, even with my prince of a boyfriend. I need a lot more space than he does but luckily he is willing to give it to me. Good luck!

Oh- and “Firdt!” :-p

I don't mean this to imply that the LW is broken - I go to therapy - but some therapy might also help if she feels she is self-sabotaging her relationships and wants to stop. I tend to think most people could benefit from a bit of therapy.

LW is the bi female version of Jerry Seinfeld.

I was listening to an old Theo Von podcast last night and he was discussing his time in the Orgasmic Meditation movement (basically, men give women manual stimulation https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xrt7Q8kc_2w&t=87m52s) and he mentioned that they provided a bunch of terms women could use to provide feedback to the men that wouldn't be interpreted as an evaluation of the performance. His guest asked what were the words:

Higher, lower, more pressure, less pressure, etc. Very basic, explicit terms!

Dan the Man, keep on rocking the house!
@1 & @2 Newbie22: WA-HOOOO!! Congrats on being "FIRDT"! Savor the glory. :)
@3 btmom: I am in therapy, too, and agree. That's helpful advice to add for HEATHEN.

@HEATHEN, you have been given some healthy recommendations from Dan and others here. I hope it all works out with your current BF.

Hey LW, I really feel for you... I've been in (and am often still in) the same boat. I also grew up in a Christian household, and I actually have PTSD surrounding my sexuality due to all the bullshit I grew up with. (For example, it's also hard for me to "surrender" and feel safe enough to orgasm... Years of feeling guilty about masturbating will do that, sadly. So, you're not alone! And it can get better!)

I'm not sure if you have clinical PTSD or not, but it sounds like you have experienced a lot of trauma surrounding sex... I'd suggest googling PTSD, trauma, and triggers. It might help you understand yourself better?

Re opening up to your partner: I shared with my partner that sometimes I felt "unsafe" and "used" (which may be similar to your feeling of repulsion?). But I also said that it wasn't actually about him, it was more of a projection; it was about my trauma and getting triggered. So I think that can be a helpful way of framing it. (Or something like that, since our experiences are not exactly the same.) Like Dan said, you don't have to word it in the most direct and harsh way. But finding a delicate way of sharing is going to help you feel closer and safer in the long-run, I think.

And then after the initial disclosure, you can just quickly say "I'm feeling triggered" (or whatever shorthand works for you). Or even tell your partner, "Hey when I pull away during sex, when I slow things down and seem distant, that means XYZ for me." And then your partner can actively help, if that's something you want... They can suggest a break, a redirect, or whatever, when they see you're starting to disconnect. And you'll be more on the same page without having to spell it all out in the moment.

Besides researching and sharing, it's really important to tell yourself in the moment: "I don't HAVE to do this. It's okay if I need to take a break or stop tonight." Trying to power through a sexual experience we don't like just makes everything worse. It sounds like you're already redirecting, which is great. I would just encourage you to remind yourself (in the moment) that: there's room for these feelings; getting triggered makes sense and it's not your fault; you can take a break any time you need to. Your comfort and feeling safe is the most important, and a kind patient partner will put that first. I wish you all the best!

P.S. For orgasming with others, I think it's important to not have that be the focus of the session. Make it as low-stakes as possible. Maybe start with having your partner watch you masturbate, if you're comfortable with that. And it's okay if you orgasming is never a part of your partnered sessions! We can get a lot of satisfaction and enjoyment from a 1000 other sexual expressions. Orgasming doesn't have to be the goal or even on the menu.

I think HEATHEN needs to explore therapy. Feeling repulsion for a partner is a strong reaction, and while @Dan’s advice might work (no guarantees) it is not clear whether any partner is likely to want a partner with HEATHEN’s issues, and what that means for their relationship. Such a man might be out there, but she might need to be very lucky for her current boyfriend to be such a man.

This may be an unpopular opinion but I also can experience attraction then repulsion to/for a potential romantic partner. Like one day I'm looking at them like they're so beautiful the next like they're so ugly. One day kissing like I never wanna stop, another where the smell of their breath makes me wanna vom. Those people have always been in the few months fling then they're out camp. I think you should hold out on an LTR for someone who doesn't trigger these things. You're only 30 and were in a 5yr relationship. There are a lot of people out there and I think trying to make it work with one of these attraction-repulsion flings (no matter how great the person) is delaying the inevitable breakup. Be patient and you may find yourself meeting someone who doesn't repulse you. Ever.

@8 Such people are definitely out there :) If you talk to any community that has issues in the bedroom (eg, people on medication that causes low to no libido, PTSD like I mentioned in my last comment, and many many more!)... you'll see that many are in good, loving relationships. Of course LW needs to put her issues on the table, and it's up to her current partner if he's up for working through such things! But to suggest that it's super rare to find someone who is willing... seems ignorant to me. I think we just live in two very different worlds tbh (and fair enough!).

There is definitely hope, LW, and everyone else who struggles. Patient partners are out there! (And it's also fair if people DON'T feel up to dealing with this sort of thing... No one is obligated to be up for a more difficult sex life!)

@9 That's a great point! may have been projecting too much in my previous comment (7). Hard to say what's really going on for LW. If it really is about her own triggers, it won't matter who she's with... She'll need to work through this regardless. But if it is more about repulsion (in the way you describe), then I agree, she should definitely move on and hold out for someone she connects to better physically.

This one is WAY above Dan's pay grade. LW needs a sex-positive sex therapist to work through sexuality and intimacy issues with trained guidance. Take it from someone who (clearly) has sometimes extreme reactions thanks in part to personal sexual trauma (though I think cultural trauma due to fucked up norms concerning sexuality has been more damaging).

Revulsion for sex partners is a rather serious problem, sometimes even a dangerous one. It underlies a lot of violence directed towards sex partners - misogynistic, homophobic, and transphobic (and potentially but more rarely misandristic). Figuring out the root triggers and coping mechanisms to deal with them is going to be absolutely necessary for LW to have partnered sexual relationships in the future, if that's of interest (and it sounds like it is), so, again, trained help is going to be much more useful than a one-off letter to a columnist.

I'll play Devil's Advocate in this post.

I wonder if it's possible that her instincts are correct--maybe she has been dating people whom others would objectively find attractive one moment, repellant the next.

If that's the case, then she also needs to investigate (possibly in therapy) why she is attracted to partners like that, and how to get past this and find people more worthy of her.

Also, if that's the case, then it's a good sign that she doesn't tolerate the behavior for very long.

My guess is that this isn't the case, but I throw it out there as an alternate possibility (not to be confused with an "alternative fact" -- cough, cough).

Am I the only one who picked up on “bi woman” and “strict Protestant upbringing” in context with LW’s question? To me, it’s screaming Bi Now, Gay Later and being with a cis dude is how she’s staying in the bounds of what is acceptable in the culture in which she was raised. Being attracted to women but “choosing” to be with a dude is acceptable. Being with a woman is not.

Regardless of the answer, concur with John Horstman that she needs a professional on her team pronto.

It’s also worth tracking “yes please” and repulsion along with her menstrual cycle. If she can’t keep her hands off him 3 days before ovulation and doesn’t want him near her 3 days after ovulation, well, that’s a data point to consider, isn’t it?

When in doubt clear it out. Repulsion is a strong word. Hold out for someone you have better chemistry with. They are like chocolate M&M’s they do exist!

@12. John Horstman. It is NOT above Dan's pay grade. His advice is good. His advice ' 'level with' your boyfriend about his intrusive tongue-y kisses' is essential, and his advice 'make it a sexy game about you controlling how he touches you' is intelligent, creative and could well work. Or it could go some way towards dispelling her repugnance and second guessing of herself. I guess I'd find it much less unusual than you for someone to feel pangs of repulsion for a partner she's essentially attracted to. The thing to do is--with consent--to get him to stop doing the stuff that turns her off. Then see if she's still repulsed. If so, he probably isn't her long-term partner, and, without sweating it, she should leave him, for both their sakes.

@1. Newbie. Yes--very plausible analysis. If she's avoidant, he sounds anxious--all the hovering and handsiness. The issues won't be just with her--which may be good for her to know.

'Avoidant' and 'anxious' isn't a good match. They should identify their problem, and work at it.

@15. Dude. Yes, I felt that.

/break/
She sounds as if she knows herself well, and has laid all her potential problems out.

It's now time to ask her partners, current and future, for help e.g getting her off. 'It's rare for me to have an orgasm during partnered sex, and it's always less intense than masturbating'. A decent person, with encouragement or negotiation, will offer a sex session where the aim is just her coming. Fingers and tongues. She does not need to impress any lover with her sophistication and experience. Not at 30, not at a time where there may be an expectation that new lovers could be someone's life-partner. Instead, she should be upfront with her problems, available and vulnerable enough to ask for quite specific psychosocial help.

The right medium-to-long term partner will give it to her. The person whom she's afraid to ask isn't the right long-term partner. To begin with, tell your lover 'less tongue', don't tell us.

As a final thought, possibly coming unselfconsciously would be easier for her with a woman.

Therapy! Are you in therapy? Your letter is screaming therapy to me.

My instinct with this guy is that he isn't the guy. "I find him attractive, intelligent, and funny" does not equate to chemistry. Suddenly being repulsed by someone does not equate to chemistry. I agree with Dan that it will probably get worse the more she grins and bears it. She is not even 30 yet, she shouldn't feel she should settle for someone with whom she does not have great chemistry.

Also, there is so much pressure to couple up that preferring a default of being on one's own is often confused with "fear of commitment." Are you truly afraid, or are you happy in your own company, to the point that the bar is very high for surrendering your freedom? If your default is single, THAT'S OKAY. If being suddenly repulsed by partners is a common thing, it's probably you, and a therapist can help you get into good working order to date. If it's just this guy, he isn't the guy. Move on.

Kindness @7, thank you for this very helpful post. The best use of projection!

Slinky @14, I don't think we should second guess this woman's sexual orientation -- she's attracted to this dude, to dudes, the majority of the time, right? -- but you may be onto something regarding her menstrual cycle.

KC @16, good point. HEATHEN, it's not uncommon for women to not learn and be able to vocalise what sort of stimulation we need until our 30s and 40s. Keep experimenting, communicating and learning! And like Kindness @7 says, enjoy all the sex, orgasm or no orgasm. (Have you tried weed or its variants?)

@10/Kindness: I don’t think my comment is ignorant, but relationships are hard, as we know reading questions day-after-day. In a world in which people reject potential partners for very superficial reasons, I think it is probably typical that most people will not want a partner with significant psychological issues. That doesn’t mean there is no one for people like HEATHEN, but to suggest that it won’t be a real impediment is naive.

Again, I think HEATHEN, and people who have similar psychological issues, should get therapy, and be in a reasonable level of working order before dating, which is typically the advice offered by @Dan. To me, it doesn’t sound like HEATHEN is there now.

"Do you want to support The Stranger? Contribute here.
Don't do that."

Haha, whoops!

Has anyone considered LW might be asexual? Going to therapy to talk things out is always a good idea, but not everyone who is repulsed by sex is "broken". It's possible for LW to be romantically attracted to her partners and not be interested in fucking them. It's a 1% option but it's an option that Dan et al always forget exists.

JH @ 12 - "This one is WAY above Dan's pay grade"

You forget one detail: the LW is the one who sought Dan's advice. Maybe that's because she thought it would be helpful.

Jaded @22, she is interested in fucking them, she just finds it difficult to come with them. So, no.

I'm not sure that LW can or should try to address what's going on with a BDSM cover. Apart from the subterfuge (no pun intended), it's not clear that her partner is subby enough to go for it.

She has some issues; as we all have issues. She should work on them, and also be honest about them with her partner. At that point, maybe BDSM-style moves could be used in the moment to mitigate her discomfort.

For something this serious, level with any partner and call a hiatus. It's one thing to say and mean in full candour [And it's also fair if people DON'T feel up to dealing with this sort of thing... No one is obligated to be up for a more difficult sex life!] and another for someone on the receiving end to feel the revelation isn't attempted cajolery into shouldering the burden.

I'm really curious how LW is doing in the rest of her life regarding her mental health. The letter to me screamed unresolved trauma and general hair-trigger anxiety. Does all this flip-flopping about what does and does not work for her get better when she is drunk or on an anti-anxiety med?

I think Dan's general ground rule of being in good-working-order applies here and she should take partnered sex off her activities list for the foreseeable future. Any worthy partner who knew her level of revulsion would not be interested in putting her into that situation. Her current hot-cold, touch-me-like-this-but-not-on-even-numbered-days is really unfair to the men she has been dating, especially if she wants to apply blame to them for not bringing her to orgasm. Let this dude go, along with all the others. The idea from some other comments that maybe this wouldn't happen when dating women is worth considering as well.

@BiDanFan: Thank you, very kind!! I hope LW gets a chance to read my advice and feel encouraged. At the end of the day, I just want her to know hope and healing is possible.

@AdamWashington & @SublimeAfterglow: I think "good working order" is just so subjective. And each partner has to decide what's worth it to them. Also it depends on how long you've been in a relationship... My PTSD didn't come up until I'd already been with my partner for several years. So it makes more sense, I guess, that they were/are willing to work through that with me. We already had a foundation based on love, a long solid history, etc. I understand that finding a NEW partner when you have so many triggers and issues is a MUCH different kettle of fish. I think it's just really up to the LW and her current partner (or any future partners).

Ideally we would all work on ourselves while we're single, then be in some magically good place and ready to date. But if you have mental illness, if you have trauma, disability, etc... You're not necessarily ever going to arrive at that magical place. And you don't have to ever arrive there in order to have a partner! But I'm sure some people really do need to step back, be single for awhile, and get to a relatively better place. Only the people in the relationship can make that call. (And if someone keeps finding themselves in failing relationships, that should be a sign to them as well! That they need professional help to sort through what's the issue.)

Appreciate you two (and everyone) sharing their thoughts. I think it's important that these discussions are balanced on both sides, and I think the SL comment section usually does a pretty good job of that :)

One last thought @27:

"Her current hot-cold, touch-me-like-this-but-not-on-even-numbered-days is really unfair to the men she has been dating..."

HA, that actually sums up sex life for many with PTSD! Surprise suprise. (And yes, we still can have a sex life ;))

Also people with menstrual cycles feel VERY different throughout their cycle (as others have mentioned here)... It's okay to be super into it one day, and not interested at all the next! (That's true for everyone!!)

That being said, I do still agree LW would benefit from therapy and needs to work through a lot! But she can still have a sex life in the meantime, if she wants; it's up to her and any partners she has.

(Okay I'll try to step off my soap box now ;))

@18. Bi & @20. Sublime. The reason I thought the headline advice should be 'level with your bf', not 'seek therapy' is that, quite possibly, someone in the lw's position would take therapy as a pretext for not opening with her partner. She would discuss her issues with her therapist, not with him.

I know this isn't 'doing therapy right', and your advice, evidently, is for her to do therapy right ... but do people always do it right? We know they don't. They try, for instance, to put the best gloss on their problems so that they don't come over as clueless, klutzy or broken to their therapist; or--a potential issue here--they defer zeroing in on their relationship's faultlines until their therapist has put them in 'good working order'. For some people, just being in therapy confirms to them that they're 'broken' and can double down on their sense of dejection and incapacitation, while others are able to sign up to their therapist's line of analysis or tone of mind during the sessions but find them arcane, alien or unlivable otherwise.

None of these concerns are a reason for the lw not to pursue therapy. It could turn out, for instance, that therapy quickly puts a finger on why she goes for 'assholes' or guys who simultaneously attract and repulse her. That is, it could offer 'easy wins'--if not exactly 'quick fixes'--or it could offer no quick fixes at all.

In this case, I don't think quick saying, 'don't hover' or 'hands off' to her bf is shaming. Why not try it once and see if it gets a result?

@10 KindnessisKey: Thank and bless you mentioning PTSD issues. I am therapy for service-connected PTSD and, upon reading many letters to Dan, his responses, and commenters' views have reason to believe it may be a direct link to my chosen asexuality.

We all try to make things work with someone if we like them but sometimes you just can’t get on the same page and you have to move on.

@29 maybe she is schizophrenic. Love me hate me fight me fuck me go away come close go away come close is common behaviour of schizophrenics and people ashamed of their sexuality thus maybe the repulsion.

@31 Griz (yay I got a comment from Auntie Grizzz!!):

Just call me the Patron Saint of PTSD ;) I'm always glad to share what I learned about PTSD... It literally changed my life! And that's very understandable and valid (to be asexual after trauma) <3

Kindness @28, good working order doesn't need to mean perfect working order. That would leave about five people in the world who were dating material! We all have issues, but the difference between good working order and not is being aware of and dealing with these issues, able to communicate around them, able to take responsibility for them and not make everything the other person's fault, getting therapy/meds if necessary.

Harriet @30, did I imply that she should get therapy instead of talking to her boyfriend? Sigh. Of course she should gently tell her boyfriend when he does something she doesn't like! She should try it, not once, but every time something makes her uncomfortable. Sounds like she is already doing that non-verbally, by pulling away and/or taking control of the boink. Anyone would reasonably deduce "I stuck my tongue in her mouth, then she pulled away, I guess that means she doesn't like so much tongue." If they don't, that's when words are necessary. I do agree with Dan that sometimes liking the tongue but other times not liking the tongue would be confusing for this guy, so she needs to use words and say, "I have some issues that I'm working on in therapy (see what I did there), but they tend to manifest by my getting suddenly repulsed for no reason during sex. If I pull away, that's why."

The word shaming is overused in this forum. People who say no to sex are not shaming those who ask for it. This view is really problematic, because women (in particular) have enough "be accommodating" messages to overcome to confidently say no when we mean no. We don't need to be told a no is "shaming" someone, on top of that. Ugh.

And no, Harriet. My advice is to do therapy wrong. Really!? No, people don't always do therapy right. And people don't always dump the motherfucker or tell the husband the truth or use their words to ask for what they want. Doesn't mean any of that is bad advice.

@31. Griz. And a lot of people's asexuality is non-traumagenic. You don't want to make it sound as if being ace is always the result of something going wrong. Further, some people whose lack of interest in sex derives from trauma want to recover ordinary sexual function.

@34. Bi. I agree about 'shaming'.

In just recommending therapy--only saying 'are you in therapy?' or 'get your ass into therapy' or words to the effect of 'you need therapy!'--commenters, in my view, do not enter sufficiently into the mindset of people with problems. Very often, people can go quickly from 'I don't need therapy!' (eg 'there isn't much that's wrong with me') to 'I'm in dire straits but therapy will sort my issues'. That is, similar impulses to those which delayed them seeking help will lead them to have an unrealistic, or too passive, sense of therapy as a panacea. My view would be that in recommending therapy, as you and Sublime did, commenters would do well to say something qualified--specific, orienting, angled towards a correspondent's problem eg 'therapy might help you to make fair demands of others' or 'in therapy, you could investigate whether there's a pattern to your bad bf choices'.

Otherwise 'therapy!' could easily be heard as 'you're broken' or 'gee, are you in a bad way'.

I would suppose, actually, that Savage does a thousand times the good of any therapist. A thousand thousand.

Re-reading the letter, she says: "Also, I suspect that not climaxing with my partners has something to do with the same inability to surrender. I mistrust my feelings, as they can flip suddenly from attraction to repulsion. It's currently happening with a guy I’m seeing now." This isn't a problem specific to him. So it should be easier for her to give him an honest "it's not you, it's me" about her sudden repulsion problem. I withdraw my comment about breaking up with him; she should give it some more time, while under the guidance of a therapist.

Harriet @36, the therapists are the professionals, we're not. She finds a therapist, she tells them what she's told Dan, and the therapist tells her what the "angle" is. And no, one reply from one advice columnist will not do the good of even one person who can ASK QUESTIONS and engage with someone on an ongoing basis. "Get therapy" does not equate to "you're broken," that's all in your head. Have you considered therapy to deal with your irrational aversion to therapy? ;)

@37. Bi. I half-agree with one thing you say, about the therapist being able to ask questions. But we know that Dan often engages in a back-and-forth with his correspondents, eliciting facts--because he often publishes the exchanges as SLLOTDs. Maybe he only replies to letters in the column where he feels that there's enough information to offer a considered view.

No one need await the judgment of a professional to have an 'angle' on an analysand's problems. To suppose this is to divest ourselves of the common sense and ordinary wisdom we all--eg the commentariat--have. With the current lw, for example, my 'angle' would be that she finds it difficult to expose herself with sufficient vulnerability to say she infrequently (?) comes during partnered sex, a frame of mind that maybe owes to the stress laid on self-control or -sufficiency during her Protestant upbringing. Wouldn't this be your angle?

(Saying she finds it hard to come 'in company' is a bit mealy-mouthed, and she's not doing herself any favors. How about 'my orgasms with a partner are never as intense as when I masturbate. I do it in complete silence and use toys. I find I second-guess myself over whether I'm about to come or not with a partner partly because I'm trying to coordinate my orgasm with his'. (For example). Anyone decent will say, 'let's leave my orgasm out of it for now. We'll play with toys in a silent room, in an exploratory way with no pressure, and maybe just a bit of sucking and nibbling if we feel like it'--eg. (These are options--better options than she's currently exploring--not reconstructions or predictions). She needs this degree of explicitness. She wants better partnered sex. She does not want to find herself in a LTR post-30 in which she's sexually dissatisfied, perhaps fakes it, as a matter of course).

It's possible my distrust of psychotherapy has to do with how uniquely atrocious therapists were in dealing with gender identity 25 years ago. But there will always be something. 60 years ago it was homosexuality, 30 years ago transness ... now--maybe treating people's psyches in isolation from their social circumstances, their wealth or poverty, access to resources like good food or expertise applying for jobs, etc.? There will always be something because of the way the profession sets itself up as a 'science'.

Harriet, Dan himself had some things to say about therapy in the weekly roundup.

@14 slinky -- No, that's definitely not a foregone conclusion here. "Bisexual" doesn't mean "never repulsed by sex," whether guys are involved or not. Also, bi women tend to get shafted in terms of negative stereotypes in the queer women's community, so in that context there's far more pressure to "round up" to lesbian than to "round down" to bi (although that's been complicated in recent years by additional pressure to ID as bi if there's any chance whatsoever you might be into guys because lesbians don't want their terminology contaminated or their partners leaving them for men, but that's another story).

Also--"a data point to consider" for what purposes? Consider how? That some women are more interested in sex during ovulation? What a shocker. I made a comment once about how my almost-entirely-female-centered attractions became more pansexual around ovulation, but it's entirely gross to think that's been lifted as a way to make you sound knowledgeable about women's arousal patterns. Ew.