Yeah, so I’m a 17-year-old lesbian and decided to be big and brave and come out to my parents. I did the whole “born this way,” “please accept me,” etc., that I’m sure everyone tries.

Things got pretty damn quiet, which was actually a good reaction in my books because my parents are kind of religious and the words “conversion therapy” were once-upon-a-time raised at the table as a good thing to have available to gay kids, so… I thought things went kind of well considering.

And then, guess what? My parents decided to have a nice sit down with me tonight and beside them is my Dad’s laptop and on it is one of your videos on YouTube, which I though was pretty darn weird considering my parents usual tastes in entertainment. What played then was your video on women’s sexuality with that lovely quote about your five lesbian friends—three of whom are now married to men. Bravo Dan, way to throw a sister under the bus. Because now my parents are taking your word as a fellow homosexual that there is no such thing as a woman being totally gay and that with a bit of therapy I can drag myself back to “straight.”

Newsflash, Dan: I’ve never been into dudes. Like, ever. Always known it, from back when I prayed to God when playing spin the bottle it would land on my girl friends and not one of the guys. So some girls might like to swap and change, but others don’t.

Not that I think you’ll ever read this, but on the small off chance that you do, well, YOU SUCK. Like, so much. Think about what you say before you say it next time! I get that it obviously wasn’t what you were trying to say. You saying that lesbians can change what gender they like is just made of fail.

Pissed Off Dyke

My response—and an epic email exchange with POD—after the jump.

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I’m so sorry—I drew the short straw on lesbian friends, it seems, but that’s the truth of my experience, and the sexual journeys/trajectories of my friends. But my having known three bi woman who identified as lesbians in the 1990s—the three with male partners now are most definitely NOT straight—doesn’t make you any less of a lesbian, POD. or prove that no one is a lesbian, or that everyone can change, or that anyone should have to change.

First, tell your parents, who hang on my every word, that I said “fuck you,” by the way.

But the fact is, however, that female sexuality is more fluid than male sexuality. That isn’t to erase anyone’s lesbianism, and it doesn’t prove that there are not lesbian women out there who are solids, not fluids, who were “born this way” and always will be this way. There most certainly are. None, however, were among my five friends back in the day.

And my five friends and their particular sexual journeys don’t excuse your parents from loving and accepting you, POD, however you identify. And the harm they can do to you by rejecting you, or forcing you into some quack therapy program, is real and you should share this stat with them: LGBT youth whose families reject them or are hostile are eight times likelier to attempt suicide. And every reputable shink org on earth rejects “conversion therapy” and considers it harmful and psychologically damaging.

And as your parents are in video-watching mode, send them to www.itgetsbetter.org, where they can watch thousands of videos made by women who came out as lesbians when they were teenagers and decades later are still—and always will be—lesbians, POD, just like you.

I’m sorry my video complicated this time in your life. Really, I am. That certainly wasn’t my intention. The fluidity of female sexuality is much more commonly expressed in journeys like Cynthia Nixon’s—that is, in straight-identified women who later come out as bi or lesbian. You can tell your parents I said so. And that means your mom is likelier to “change” than you are.

Also, ask your parents to watch Lead With Love. And if you want to keep talking with me on email, i’m game.—Dan

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Wow. I wasn’t actually expecting a response, and I’m kind of embarressed now. I was mostly just venting at what I kinda thought would be thin air. Sorry. Not your fault. If it wasn’t that video they used as their proof it would’ve been another one.

Trust me, I had a pretty big screaming match with them about thirty seconds before I was banished to my room. Yeah at 17, I know—sad. I tried to do the whole explaining about the “it gets better” thing, which rocks btw. I’m not, like, getting kicked out of the house or anything. But they want me to give the therapy thing a try at least and I really don’t fucking want to and I know it sounds weird that a 17 year old is freaking out because her parents want her to do something she doesn’t want to do, but I live at home and I’m still in school and I don’t really know how to get them off their high horse. And if they insist they’ll probably bring in someone from the church, which is a side order of guilt from the priest who baptised, communed, and confirmationed me and has known me since BIRTH.

I’m sorry anyway. I didn’t mean the guilt trip. I feel bad now. As I said, thought I was ranting at thing air. Sorry.—POD

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Please don’t apologize for your anger, POD. It was justified.

I wish to God I could remember which IGB video it was, but there was a guy who talked about going to reparative therapy, at the insistence of his parents, and smiling and nodding and not really talking and treating the whole thing like a top-secret mission—basically, he kept his own counsel and bided his time as he ran out the living-at-home/gotta-do-what-mom-and-dad-say clock.

I think you should… maybe… give in to your parents, if they insist, or threaten to throw you out or cut you off. Roll your eyes and let them make an appointment. Go talk with the stupid therapist. But stand your ground in those sessions. And remind your parents that not everyone clicks with every therapist and if you’re going to talk with someone the person can’t be crazy or disrespectful or insulting. Even if you just don’t feel a good connection with a therapist you’ll need to meet with someone else until you find someone you can work with—even if that person isn’t necessarily pro-gay, tell your parents, then keep playing therapist roulette until you find someone who isn’t too rabidly anti-gay or is, with any luck, neutral or pro.

You’re in a tough spot. You may have to do what your parents demand to keep the peace—at least while you’re living at home. Think of yourself as the grownup in this situation and your parents as the tantrum-throwing toddlers. Be patient, be loving, be kind… and tell yourself… as they did when you were a tantrum-throwing toddler… that this stage of their development will pass. They’ll get over it, or you’ll finish school and start your adult life and move out and they can go fuck themselves, but either way… this is only temporary. It’s only for now, as they sing in Avenue Q. Only for now.

I wish I could come to your house and speak to your parents in person. If you wanted me to, if you would let me, POD, I would show up at your house in person and speak to your parents. I feel I have a right to speak to them, seeing as they’re misusing my YouTube talks to badger you into a potentially damaging therapy program. I travel a lot. I’m traveling right now. If you live close to one of the places i’m visiting, even if it means another day on the road, I’ll drop by your house and knock on your door.

Totally serious.—Dan

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I’m in Ireland, actually, kind of out of your area.

Ah shit, I’m really sorry if I ruined your day there. My parents are assholes. They would have found something to use against me one way or another, and like, most of your stuff’s great like, the its gets better thing really inspired me and made me feel better. Don’t worry about what I said. It’s fine!—POD

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Ireland’s kinda far! Where in ireland?—Dan

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I live in Dublin! It’s not too bad to live here, as far as being gay in a v. catholic country goes. It’s not like America were thousands of people protest against pretty much anything that’s in anyway gay-related, but I got unlucky I guess.

I guess you’re right: it doesn’t hurt to just go and wait it out. I mean, it’s not like I dont know that they’re just talking shite. I didn’t even know they allowed conversion therapy over here but apparently they do. The thought of it is making me sick, though, and my parents looking at me like I admitted to being addicted to crack or something and selling myself to pay for it also makes me ill. And I had to be a fucking idiot when they asked how did I even know since I had never had sex or met any other lesbians and me, the biggest fool that ever lived, turned around and said I have had sex and that I’ve gone out to some of the very few gay bars in Dublin—underage too, genius is what I am—and things just went mad here.

I suppose if I give them this then I can say I “tried” and they can’t have hold that over my head but it’s kind of terrifying. I’ve read some awful stories about these “pray the gay away” camps in America and that they’re basically brainwashing and worse. And most of the time it’s just people who got shipped off by parents with good intentions as well. I’m hoping they just have a one-to-one thing planned and not some camp but even then, I’m pretty scared about it. I don’t think I can get away with not going and expect life at home to not be a nightmare.

But thanks for talking to me, especially after I was a bit of an asshole. I don’t really have anyone I can talk to about these things. The few friends who do know are pretty cool and try hard but, it’s kind of like “this is my lesbian friend [POD],” instead of “this is [POD]!” the way it was before.

Thanks for offering to come if I lived in America though, I appreciate it. 🙂 But it would probably make them angrier that I was airing their dirty laundrey in public though!—POD

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No, no: your parents have it all wrong: it’s gay boys like me who are addicted to crack.

So… how would you like a world of support and a world of supporters? I can’t come over there, POD, but i could post our exchange online, if you’re okay with it, along with your email address (or another one, if you want to create one), and you’ll have so many people emailing you, talking to you, supporting you, and strategizing with you that you won’t know what to do.

Also: look around. The friends you’re out to: are they your age? Do they have parents who are more liberal and humane than your parents are capable of being at the moment? (Don’t lose hope for your parents—they usually come around!) Make a backup plan, POD, make it now, so you have a place to go if things get really hairy ugly with your parents, or if you decide you just can’t to talk to some quack therapist. Just talking to some supportive adults about being able to crash with them for a week or two would be a relief.

Are there social service orgs in Dublin for queer youth? There must be. Have you Googled around?—Dan

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LOL!

I wouldn’t mind if you posted this online. I mean, I do feel a bit better, even just from venting like. But would it be okay if I gave you a different email? On the offchance that my Dad goes rogue and decides to figure out the Internet outside of YouTube? I’m not too worried because it’s not likely they’ll find out about this email address as they havent found out about all the porn I’ve been defiling their computer with over the years—ha!

But I set another up. Is this okay? toolateforawake@hotmail.com

I just set it up now. Because it really is too late to be awake. It’s like 2 in the morning but theres no way in hell I’m sleeping tonight.

Sadly I don’t think any of my friends’ parents would over step mine. Unless my parents completley kicked me out, which is whole new set of nightmares. But I don’t my friends’ parents they would take me in otherwise. I haven’t really looked around but I’m sure there are a few orgs here that could help. I didn’t really think they’d react this badly, you know?

Thanks again, Dan, I really appreciate you taking the time to talk to me after I vented on you!—POD

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You know that I’m irish Catholic myself, right? So I read “toolateforawake” and read it as “too late for a WAKE.”

Pretty morbid, huh?

Okay, I’m shutting down my computer. I’m on your side, POD, and you’re not in this alone. If I publish our conversation along with your email address you might get emails from a few haters—can you handle that? Can you delete the hateful emails and ignore the haters and focus on the people offering you good advice and moral support instead of obsessing on the haters?—Dan

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Fun times, being gay and Irish Catholic, isn’t it? I go to a nice convent school run by nuns too, oh joy.

Jesus, actually, yeah that email address does sound morbid! My brain is like, completely off line.

If you do post our emails and my email address, that’s fine. I’m a big girl. It’s really only my parents that are a problem because I share the same breathing space as them. I’m not going to let a few haters bother me. And I’ve read the comments section on your YouTube videos. Ha! If you can read through them without having no self esteem left than I can handle a few dicks taking a jab at me.

🙂

Thanks again. I’m gonna try and shut off my brain and get some sleep. Thoughts of school tomorrow are heartbreaking. Cheers!—POD

126 replies on “SL Letter of the Day: Lesbian Teen Not Happy With Her Parents—Or With Dan”

  1. Go to Ireland, Dan! There are planes that fly there, astonshing, I know! Talk to those parents. Make a damn TV show out of it if you have to. Go to Ireland, Dan. Go! And then tell us all about it. oxo

  3. Hey POD,

    I think that if you end up having to go to therapy you should consider blogging the experience. I think you would end up with a very eager audience and gain the opportunity to get perspective on what’s going on in those sessions. Also it would give people the opportunity to know what to expect if they are fated for a similar experience. But of course also consider that doing so could potentially also bring you a lot of unwanted attention.

  4. “Well, according to Dan, it’s just a phase. So I don’t need therapy. Therapy might make the phase go slower because I’ll be rebelling against it. If you just let me do my things for now, maybe later I will turn straight.” Boom. Just bought yourself a few years and your parents will be over it by then. Just saying what I would do… 🙂

  5. @11: The more significant point isn’t whether women see two men together as being hot, it’s whether MEN see two men being together as hot. Remember who is “in charge.”

  6. @94, I had a very similar conversation with a friend of mine recently. You’ll notice that for some reason, I am impassioned by this thread, so I don’t mean to have my back up, but I urge you to consider a different scenario:

    There is a father who was a football star in his youth – he lived and breathed the sport, enjoyed the male camaraderie and toughness that playing it brought him, and greatly looks forward to sharing all of these moments and lessons with his son. He envisions football being his opportunity to teach masculinity to the strapping, athletic lad that is to be his heir. His son is born, and is a bit of indoor-type kid – he loves to read and excels at academics and music. Dad urges him to play ball but he isn’t very good at it or any other sport. The son is dutiful, kind to people, respectful of his parents – and continues to be excellent at music and pursues that as a teenager and young adult. All the dreams of that Dad for football don’t come true, and he is disappointed and perhaps mourns the death of those dreams. I think we would all understand that the Dad is having those feelings.

    But were that dad to kick out his son for not playing football, or suggest that he be sent to therapy for not playing football, or generally grow distant for a while from his son – would the expectation be for everyone to just give him time to mourn? Would we not consider him cruel for laying the guilt of his lost dreams on his son who did nothing wrong and had absolutely nothing to do with the creation of those dreams? I don’t think so. I think that to make an argument that it is legitimate to ask a CHILD to give their PARENT understanding and sympathy when the only thing the child has done is to be his/herself is unfair. It greatly undermines an effort to make a queer kid feel okay with (not to mention proud of) who they are. Reinforcing that the particular difference of being gay is somehow set apart, and that the reactions to it are therefore excusably different (and likely more negative, more severe, etc.) is not helping promote the inclusion of and celebration of queer youth.

    I grew up as a total boi/butch in the Deep South Bible Belt. I am well-acquainted with the types of expectations that other people had of me because I was born with a vagina, though I had absolutely no hand in developing those expectations. The greatest pains and torments in my life have come from not meeting those expectations, and I work hard, every day, to overcome them and believe that I am at least a decent human being even though I wouldn’t wear a dress to the father-daughter dance. Please do not ask me, or any other lesbian that is born with a lot of expectations on them rooted in a very particularly definition of females and femininity, to just give them time to mourn. It implies that we have killed something, which was only imaginations, while we stand there in the flesh needing support from our parents.

  8. Fluidity in women’s sexuality more than men? Yes, I agree. But to declare oneself a lesbian and then marry a man (assuming they have vowed to be faithful) means they’ve either discovered they are NOT Lesbian or Bi, they ARE Bi and are trying to ignore that, or they are struggling. Let’s just be fluid about that, shall we?

  9. Ah, POD, I’m amazed at how mature and together you sound. Being an underage lesbian in a non-accepting family is extremely hard, and you seem to be handling your situation with humor and self-knowledge.

    I think you’re in for some hard times in the next year, but given the qualities you’ve demonstrated so far, I know you’ll come out okay on the other side. You have both grit and wit, and that combination will take you far, girl.

    Lots of us here are hoping for the best for you. It really DOES get better.

    *HUG*

  10. I want to point out a mental leap that POD’s parents make that, if you think about it, isn’t logically sound. The evidence, “Dan Savage knows lesbian-identified women who later identified as bi or straight,” leads them to the conclusion, “You should go into therapy to become straight.” I’m pretty sure none of Dan’s fluid-lesbian friends got straightened out by ex-gay therapy. Either they changed simply because people sometimes change, or they realized that they had been bi all along. Neither one suggests that therapy can “cure” a lesbian.

  11. @108
    So well put, that is such a strong and greatly overlooked observation you have made…no one should be made to feel guilty about shattering expectations that they did nothing to form or humor. To feel like you need to take it easy on someone who is mourning a fake idea of who you could have been is ridiculous; people wouldn’t have their dreams shattered if they understood the importance of being open-minded with their children and realizing that they could grow up to be anything, no matter what they push onto them. So your kid doesn’t want to be a doctor, so they don’t go to college, so they go to a college you didn’t want them to go to, so they’re gay… what would you rather have, the fictional kid in your head or your flesh and blood human feeling living child?

  12. On fluidity, whether social or genetic: I could of course say that my personal experience tends to confirm Dan’s, but what good would it be, since I, like Dan, also only had/have a handful of Lesbian friends and acquaintances, so it’s all anecdotal anyway?

    I’ll wait for the statistical studies and the researchers’ consensus opinion once it’s reached. What little I’ve read thus far tends to confirm the idea that women are in average, on the whole (meaning there are lots of exceptions, etc… stats aren’t to be read as if they were the ten commandments) more flexible/fluid than men, more so than cultural tendencies would jusitify. But, who knows? Maybe further studies will debunk that.

    As long as we understand that statistical claims and tendencies are only that: statistics, not guidelines about how to live one’s life and whether or not one is “normal” (in any of the several senses of this word) or “has a problem”… As long as we treat each others as individuals… there’s no problem with the stats. No matter what men and women are statistically more likely to be (an interesting fact in itself, but…), I am still myself, you are still yourself, and that’s it.

  14. Make your folks watch “But I’m a Cheerleader”! It’s fictional, but it’s funny and heartwarming. The Gay Conversion Camp just pushed the questioning girl right into full-fledged lesbian relationship. And nearly everyone associated with the camp was really gay. RuPaul in boy drag!

  15. Props to you POD, for coming out to your parents. You’re braver than me. Stay strong– you’re seventeen and don’t have long to go!

  16. To POD, for what it’s worth, my highschool friends who were lesbians (or who came out as lesbian later) were always, 100% lesbian. Although it is awesome to have so many people from around the world in your corner (and in the corner of all the other kids in Dublin, or any other city, who are in your shoes!), that doesn’t take away the frustration of having to deal with parents who aren’t being supportive. I really like what Dan said about treating them like the toddlers throwing a tantrum, and viewing yourself as the more mature adult in this situation. Toddlers do need patience, and often they do change, even if it’s very hard for them. But even if they don’t change, eventually it will not be your responsibility to attend to their needs anymore. Eventually they will have to accept you on your own terms. It may not feel like it at 17, but the time flies by and you’re so close to having wonderful independence and freedom! I pray that your parents will learn to understand and love you exactly for who you are.

  17. @ 44 Heh. I didn’t really know a good way to show my daughter my support when she came out to me, so I bought her a VHS of “But I’m a Cheerleader”. It’s really a pretty dumb movie, but it holds a place in our hearts, anyway.

  18. Hi POD,
    I live in Dublin too. Born and raised. Am 18 years older than you, so I went through very similar stuff, but in the pre-internet days. Used to pretend to be browsing the books in ‘Books Upstairs’ beside Trinity until I could work up the courage to take a free copy of G.C.N. in my clammy hand, half-expecting everyone in the shop to turn around and go ‘oh you’re one of them!’. Makes me smile to think of it now. Would have loved to have been bombarded with all these wonderful, supportive comments at the time! But I found the support of the groups mentioned above (or earlier incarnations of them) to be very good. You sound like you have your head together though. Didn’t think ‘conversion therapists’ existed anymore. My therapist friends tell me that even if a practitioner had a personal view of homosexuality as a disfunction, they probably wouldn’t show it because it’s just not supported by the evidence and is not a mainstream view anymore. Remember that. Wondering if I should give you any advice here…what keeps coming to mind is PATIENCE. Be patient with your parents and the steep learning curve they are on and keep being your lovely, dignified self. Being patient doesn’t mean giving in to their ignorance of course. It just means understanding that they were taught different things and had different experiences and are scared of ‘new’ ideas and are probably scared for you. I suspect they just want you, deep down, to be happy, but are convinced that you won’t be if you follow this ‘alternative lifestyle’. I get that now with my parents. Patience worked for us. They are not and never will be champions of gay rights and they still don’t quite get it, but they are genuinely caring towards my partner (female!) of 11 years and our 1 year old daughter. And that gives me a happy feeling inside.

  19. Comment #112:

    Thanks—a similar comment I made seems to have been et. I also mentioned that in my limited experience those who showed fluidity of sexual behaviour were not women who had been forced to undergo reparative therapy, but who instead had been let the fuck alone, and someone should tell her parents this.

    This may seem a little craven, as it does not confront their bad reasons, but I believe they will be more receptive to understanding that they’ve a problem with their means. That is to say, it might be the wrong thing to do, but it has the advantage of having a decent chance of of working.

    (I was once, mysteriously, asked for counsel by the father of a young man involved in a [straight] relationship of which he disapproved and which seemed innocuous to me. His reasons weren’t that good, in my mind, but they obviously were in his, and I doubted that I could change his mind…so I merely pointed out to him that this was a relationship between two people in college, and that most of those don’t last more than a few years at most—and that pressure from him would be more likely to convict his son in his intended course, the son being about as stubborn of the father. Perhaps it would have shown him more respect to try to ‘get his mind right’, but I thought my primary obligation was helping his son, not saving the man’s soul.)

  20. I am glad she reached out to Dan… and Dan, I am glad you were there to answer… Loved the line, “since your parents are hanging on my every word, tell them fuck you” lmoa

  21. Lovely, Dan. You DO rock. How do we nominate you for the Nobel Peace Prize? I’m serious.

    Sent POD an email, too, to let her know we all care. Being 17 sucks no matter who you want to have sex with.

  23. Probably a huge number of the Nuns in your Catholic school are closeted Lesbians; probably that’s exactly why they became Nuns in the first place. To avoid questions of “Why aren’t you interested in dating?” way back when.
    Statistically, it is extremely likely that your Parish Priest is Gay, too. For exactly the same reasons. To avoid the almost universal pressure, back then, to “Get married and provide grandchildren”.

    The Church has ALWAYS, historically, been a place of refuge for Gay people. Some have managed to be quite open about it, also. At least among themselves, if not with the Laity.
    In the U.S., recently, a Priest died of a heart attack in a Gay sauna; there were two other Priests there to give him the Last Rites.
    The HYPOCRISY, and the way that they pull the wool over the eyes of the Public, over believers such as your parents, is stunning — and infuriating.
    Fortunately, memoirs by ex-Priests and ex-Nuns are now revealing many new truths.

    In the U.S. it has been shown time and again, that those MOST homophobic, publicly and politically and in churches, turn out to be closeted Gays themselves….
    So, probably, those people involved in “pray away the gay” therapy, should you be so unlucky as to have to deal with them, MIGHT VERY WELL BE CLOSETED HYPOCRITES….. all the more rigid and vehement because, deep down, they KNOW they are blatantly lying!

    Your parents, like mine, have grown up entirely in an atmosphere of Lies and Dis-information. It will take them awhile to come round, if they can be brought to recognize Truth, historically, socially, politically, statistically…..
    You, brave you, may be the Opening Wedge for them; but they will need to be exposed to many other sources, books, videos, etc….. It is encouraging that they at least know of Dan Savage, even tho they mis-use him — that can be built on!

    All The Best, I know you’ll make of your life what you want it to be….. You have the POWER.

  24. At 17 she should be saying Fuck You to her parents and moving out on her own. They either will come to terms with who she is or she’ll stand on her own.
    POD should find a local pride organization and see if anyone there would help her get a job, apartment, and possibly roommates.
    Dan, you really dropped the ball on this one telling her to go into therapy.

  25. It is frustrating that this experience continues, and that the solution feels so “one at a time.” But that’s what it is, and great job Dan in providing the ear, the support. POD, hang in there. I’ve seen parents come around to a better place, but your are great to never give up on who you really are – be it around being a lesbian or being whatever else you are.

  26. @14, it’s less common among lesbian but it still happens. One of my dearest relationships was with a woman who was infected with HIV in the 1980s (either neonatally or via breastmilk, the doctors aren’t sure). We chose to partake in low- and no-risk sexual activity together, and she took her meds, but there’s always a chance.

    I’m a 27yo queer woman. When I was 17, and my first girlfriend had broken up with me, I came out to my Irish Catholic mother–simply by saying, “Mom, I’m bisexual.” Her response was, “No, you’re not!” She never really got over it–but there’s a peace, in that we don’t talk about my dating life. I figure I’m lucky because she doesn’t pry, criticize, or “suggest” at all; she doesn’t get it so she’s backed off. You may never get the warm loving family reception you’ve heard about and dreamed of–but it still gets better.

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