Savage Love

1. First guy is a total toolbag. I’m so tired of less attractive men who are convinced that they deserve models.

2. I am a man, and although I am liberal, I often am unsympathetic to cries of sexism. With that said, the “shitting eggs” thing is over the line. Witness the firestorm in the following comments.

3. @2, I don’t think it’s sexist so much as more evidence of Dan’s intentional ignorance of the female anatomy 😛

4. I thought shitting required squeezing something, like shit, out your ass. Is that where eggs come from?

5. I’m with @2… ‘shitting eggs’ really isn’t necessary.

6. “Shitting eggs”… I now have a new excuse for all those bad choices. Who WOULDN’T fuck someone less-than-longterm with something as embarrassing as THAT going on? Love it. Adopting it.

7. “Shitting eggs”… I now have a new excuse for all those bad choices. Who WOULDN’T fuck someone less-than-longterm with something as awkward as THAT going on? Love it. Adopting the phrase. Next time,”I don’t know why I did it…I was just shitting eggs and crazy.”

8. girls shit eggs and guys piss fertilizer. gross.

9. Yeah … how about “squirting” eggs, which is still disgusting without being outright offensive.

10. “Shitting eggs”….yeah, I’m with @6 Freeamanda. No wonder I’ve been such a crazy basket case who’s made nothing but bad choices!!

    But that was 10 years ago, and blessedly soon, I’ll no longer be shitting eggs!!!! I’m gonna party BIG TIME, babeeeeee!!!!

11. @9: Even better.

12. I’m a member of the demographic Dan’s referring to, and I agree with @3. I’d be a lot more offended if it were coming from a guy who wanted to do me, and something unique and non-threatening is always going to be less offensive than a cliche (see: “on the rag”).

13. I’m a hard-core feminist and I laughed out loud at the “shitting eggs” bit. I’m definitely making it part of my lexicon.

14. “Shitting eggs” is just goofy/gross wordplay; it’s not offensive imo.

    However, re: “Women tend to be attracted to one type of guy when they’re not ovulating (nicer guys: good parents and helpful partners) and a different type of guy when they are ovulating (rougher guys: lousy parents and worse partners).” I’m not going to cry OFFENSE! That’s rude! or anything, but that’s a crazy leap of logic to make.

    Every single article I’ve ever read about this states that ovulating women are attracted to more masculine-looking or -sounding men, not “rough” guys who are terrible parents or partners. A chiseled jawline and nice wide shoulders aren’t going to make a dude a jerky boyfriend, and a weak chin and slim physique won’t keep a man from being a punk.

    The theory still stands, though: maybe her roommate’s physically a Troy and her boyfriend’s physically an Abed (or vice-versa–she didn’t describe either of them, really).

15. Not only eggs. That family guy episode explains further,

    “Babies come out of the butt, right?”
    “ahh, yeah”

    (episode: I think it’s called “Oceans 3 1/2”)

    I thought Dan was pretty HILARIOUS with that comment. I don’t care if he is acting insensitive to poke at a tickle button, but I’m impressed with the straight guys here being all evolved and anti-Peter-Griffin-like. Thanks, guys. You’ve made both my ovulating and non-ovulating personalities happy.

16. On the whole “shitting eggs” portion, I still think that biological arguments are super uninteresting. I mean, it just suggests, oh well the stuff I do is about my hormones. Also, it suggests that men don’t have hormonal fluctuations. It plays into the “crazy emotional women with hormones” argument, which is deeply sexist. I’m not saying Dan is a sexist of course that particular statement, along with many of Dan’s discussions on female genitalia, is laced with sexist subtext. Regardless, the suggestion that women ovulating become crazy cock hungry danger sluts I think is just a bit troubling.

17. @16 I don’t think it’s implying that – Dan was giving advise to a woman, about her libido and related it to hormonal changes during the menstrual cycle – perfectly relevant to what she was talking about. Or do you think libido is not about hormones (potentially pheromones) and body-types?
    I agree that there’s a lot of underlying sexism in the “crazy women with hormones” idea, but I see something very similar in the “men think with their dicks” side of the argument.
    I just think people’s libidos will always be influenced by their hormones and it’s better to take that into account than to pretend that “the stuff humans do” is completely conscious, controlled and rational.

18. Funny how the “shitting eggs” comment stuck out for most of us in that whole column. With that – and his insistence on using the word “twat” and other repulsive words all the time, Dan certainly has a knack for making women’s sexual organs sound disgusting. No question, he’s 100% fag.

19. @16 I’m pretty sure Dan highlighted a university study a while back on women’s choices of men when they were/weren’t ovulating. Maybe it was on the podcast… Either way, the finding was what he outlined in the second possible explanation to FANTASY.

20. The phrase “shitting eggs” is hilarious. I’m not seeing how it degrades women – if anything it degrades babies by comparing their component cells to a waste product.

    Which is fine by me ’cause I don’t like kids.

    Good answers this week, btw. Glad that first guy got called out for the asshole he clearly is.

21. Shitting eggs…ugh, gross. Let’s not make this a thing people say.

22. I think “shitting eggs” is a very amusing turn of phrase…I mean, it is an involuntary act…

    a middle aged woman who is no longer shitting eggs…

23. shitting eggs stuck out for me, too!

    Man, how awesome would it be if we could just poop out menstrual waste instead of walking around padded/wadded/cupped like incontinent old people once a month? I truly look forward to the day when I can shit my eggs instead of slowly leaking them over a period of three days. XD

24. Thumbs up for “crazy cock hungry danger sluts”. I found ‘shitting eggs’ opportunistically sexist – dan just couldn’t resist slipping it in there – since he’ll never have to deal with ovulation himself. Alas, humor is subjective. I may use that one among friends, if there are no broads around.

25. Birds only have one hole, and hence females shit eggs and give birth to piss and turds (male birds shit, piss and ejaculate from their ass). Dan was merely comparing women to chickens, but was sadly short two holes. Fitting punishment? Studiously exploring a woman’s parts with his tongue to discover all three, once and for all.

26. As the child of two conflictophiles, I would completely agree with your advice that they should find similar partners and fight together. However, I would like to note an important caveat: these people should never have (or adopt) children. They may enjoy screaming at each other at the top of their lungs and humiliating each other in public, but it will mean that every single time a child’s parents are in the same room (or on the phone) will be traumatic. If your friends ever plan to adopt, or use reproductive technology to have children, please firmly and as politely as possible explain that children thrive in a peaceful home and that they should reconsider their decision.

27. As the child of two conflictophiles, I would completely agree with your advice that they should find similar partners and fight together. However, I would like to note an important caveat: these people should never have (or adopt) children. They may enjoy screaming at each other at the top of their lungs and humiliating each other in public, but it will mean that every single time a child’s parents are in the same room (or on the phone) will be traumatic. If your friends ever plan to adopt, or use reproductive technology to have children, please firmly and as politely as possible explain that children thrive in a peaceful home and that they should reconsider their decision.

28. All these comments about shitting eggs? Jesus, you people can’t take a joke. Grow some skin and stfu.

29. I haven’t read the studies for myself, but I strongly, strongly suspect that the “findings”, as simplified by Dan, probably resemble the end phase of the science news cycle: http://www.phdcomics.com/comics.php?f=11…

30. @20 I love kids – I’m nursing one right now – and I think “shitting eggs” is pretty damn funny too.

    Probably not a phrase I’d like to see live in the lexicon, but it feels pretty accurate sometimes.

31. Divorce rates are not 50%. More info: http://bpp.wharton.upenn.edu/betseys/pap…
    http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/d/d…

32. FANTASY is a good example of why I think it’s a bad idea for people under 20 or 22 to move in with their significant others. I’m assuming she was living at home with her parents until just a couple months ago. Living on your own and starting college are big enough changes on their own – throwing cohabitation with a romantic partner into the mix seems excessive. Many high-school relationships end when the people involved go to college anyway. Sure, yours might not, but having a lease entangled with your relationship’s fate makes everything more complicated.

33. Sheggs 🙂

34. Shegging!

35. Am I the only one here who feels that the question by MRA is fake? From the acronym to the stereotypical portrayal of the feminist idea of what an MRA is… the whole thing stinks of fake.

36. As the supportive, marrying kind of guy,

    Who writes these bullshit rules anyway? Why do we get stuck in dull?

    Peace.

37. The MRA question sounds like one Dan answered before – maybe in the podcast or something? I’m just getting some major deja vu here.

38. The number of Republicans amongst the comments having a fit over the use of “shitting eggs” is H I L arious.

39. Mr Hamish – Your proposed punishment is too lenient, although it is an excellent start. After the session in question, let’s add on that for the next year any press coverage of Mr Savage should identify him as both bisexual and fifty-three years old.

    Bonus points to anyone who can figure out what fictional 53-year-old is constantly putting his foot in his mouth, frequently when speaking about women.

40. shitting eggs – hahaha, hilarious! Excellent column this week Dan. You’re full of zing!

41. Mr Married – I take your point. My take on the second possibility would have been more along the lines of a natural interest in someone FANTASY hadn’t yet bedded. Once might be more than enough for her if she ever did.

    “Dump” in the conclusion seemed a little harsh. It’s quicker than “part amicably” but I think we’re getting into a Dump Culture.

    FANTASY reminds me a little (in a sideways manner) of the recent LW who said she would like sex every day while her partner would prefer once or twice a month. It’s all well and good to get into the mood every day when it isn’t happening often. But not everyone who thinks it’s a great idea in theory can keep an every day string going an entire month.

42. I haven’t read the above comments yet. I thought I’d weigh in first, then check to see if I’m agreeing or disagreeing.

    For MRA– Dan is correct on everything except his conclusion based on your age. He has a somewhat rigid idea of when it’s normal for “attractive” people to lose their virginity, be in their first relationship, be ready to settle down, come out (or know their orientation), and know what they like sexually. My experience is that it’s quite a bit more fluid than that. A 23 year old might be a virgin because he’s not hot, or it might be because he’s been busy with other things. I compare it to those charts on when babies should be raising their heads, speaking their first words, and walking. Being off schedule could be the signal that something’s wrong, or it could be that there’s a kid who’s developing at their own pace.

43. For FANTASY– I’d go with Dan’s explanation #1. The conclusions based on women’s varying attractions due to ovulation schedule is based on some laboratory research and some real life observations. It’s the sort of thing where there’s a little statistical evidence, but there are also so many exceptions as to make the whole thing interesting (I was interested) while not exactly something you’d base advice on.

    Here’s some practical advice: Whatever you do, seek alternate living space first. Otherwise, you’ve got a nightmare. Break up with a nice guy you find moderately attractive, possibly break his heart, start up with the other roommate, and continue living together? Recipe for a nightmare at the worst and nasty treatment of a nice guy at the best. You all deserve better.

44. I didn’t like “shitting eggs.”
    “Shucking eggs” is a better alternative.
    Stll a good column, though.

45. In total agreement that the third couple seem splendidly well-matched. I always think of the innocent parties spared couplehood with half of such a couple.

46. @39 Maybe Dan can have a new contest, the winner can give Dan an anatomy lesson, and Dan can prove being gay is not a choice to boot. Hey, maybe the winner can shit an egg in Dan’s mouth! And he can videotape it for the next Hump! Triple win!

47. Re FANTASY, I agree with @32 – not a good idea for 18 year olds to live with the person they’re (currently) dating. Let alone with another man and woman as well. Seems more like an MTV reality show than an opportunity to make the most of their college education.

    Re MRA, I think he is depressed, and so I don’t trust his self-reporting of how much of an asshole he was. They should break up; he should try dating someone he’s attracted to; and he should get some therapy for his depression.

48. re FANTASY – I’d add a third potential reason: she’s just eighteen and is thinking about fucking another guy she’s not even that attracted to because she doesn’t want to settle down yet. She’s young and wants to see other people but she’s tied down in a quasi-marriage just as her whole life is opening up to new possibilities. But, since she’s a nice person and her bf is a nice person she feels that there’s something wrong with her. Nothing wrong with you, lady, you’re just 18 and you want a life and fun and you don’t want to be a de facto Mrs. Somebody at the most carefree time of your life. Listen to your inner self, and enjoy your life. It may not be wise to F* the room-mate, but it is wise to not be tied down when you’re barely out of high school.

49. Re ovulation affecting a woman’s preferences — does anyone have a link to a solid study? I know people like to think about this, and like to think they can identify when a woman is ovulating. But I haven’t seen anything convincing.

    And in any case, it doesn’t apply if FANTASY is on hormonal birth control, like many women in college.

50. Story #1 Been there done that but I was 18. This guy obviously hasn’t had enough relationships to get through the douchebag phase as I did. Good call on the advice, Dan.

    Story #2 Eighteen and living with her boyfriend? Fuck that. Now’s the time to dump the safety and security and date a metric shit ton of people. Only then are you going to be able to form an opinion about what you do and don’t want in a long term relationship.

    On a separate note I think people shouldn’t be allowed to get married until they’re at least 30, 35 for men. Seriously, did y’all know what the hell you were doing before then? I sure didn’t.

51. Re “MRA”: it smacks of a very immature person who, having only just lost their virginity after having to wait far too long is enthralled with the notion that after ten years since puberty of nobody fucking him is now thrilled with the idea that there are people out there who WILL! (HOORAY!) People in a situation like that are notoriously bad at judging their own attractiveness: they’ve gone from a decade of thinking that they’re unfuckable and all of a sudden they have concrete proof that they aren’t hideous and untouchable and they often swing too far the other way. He’s not a shit, he’s a confused newb.

52. I think Dan was on his period when he wrote this crap this week. “Shitting eggs” is an unnecessarily aggressive way to describe ovulation. His use of the words “fuckers” and “assholes” to talk about the gay bride and groom also came off as unusually aggressive to me.

    Perhaps he’s not on his period, but simply hasn’t been able to shit enough sperm lately and that’s why he’s so damn grumpy.

53. I think Dan was on his period when he wrote this crap this week. “Shitting eggs” is an unnecessarily aggressive way to describe ovulation. His use of the words “fuckers” and “assholes” to talk about the gay bride and groom also came off as unusually aggressive to me.

    Perhaps he’s not on his period, but simply hasn’t been able to shit enough sperm lately and that’s why he’s so damn grumpy.

54. Connection between MRA and FANTASY: to be young and comparatively new to sex is a VERY BAD TIME INDEED to be in a committed relationship.

55. Conflictophiles. Yes, that is the perfect word, and I must remember to apply it.

    And @26 is right on…I’m the offspring of two people who fought constantly. They’ve been married 30 years now and in all likelyhood will make it to their 40th, and possibly even their 50th, wedding anniversary. I’m really happy that I misunderstood their relationship for 20+ years and that they are actually really happy together. But when I think about my childhood, the stress and the embarrassment, I want to bash both of their heads together.

56. He’s not a shit, he’s a confused newb.

    -He says himself that he treated this woman badly because she wasn’t important to him.

    -He seems to have broken up with her not because he’s actually unattracted to her, but because he wants a girlfriend that other people will be attracted to; he wants to impress his peers.

    -He’s asking Dan for permission to come back into this girl’s life so he can enjoy her sex and emotional support (so, basically, be in a romantic relationship with her again) while he looks around for her replacement.

    A “confused newb” would break up with a girlfriend he liked and treated well to pursue other opportunities. Arguably a stupid choice, if he’s overestimating his appeal, but whatever – people make stupid choices sometimes. Perhaps one day he’d realize he made a mistake and get back together with the girl, if she’d have him.

    Our man MRA, however, is completely and deliberately fucking around with this girl’s heart. He’s a shit.

57. @16 “I still think that biological arguments are super uninteresting. I mean, it just suggests, oh well the stuff I do is about my hormones.”

    Certainly this sort of research _could_ be used to suggest that, but I don’t think any of the actual research has maid anything approaching that claim.

    I think that most of it indicates that your biology is sort of like driving conditions, in that you mostly just have to correct for them as you go. Still, if you totally ignore extreme conditions, biologically or driving, you certainly can spin out of control.

58. Yeah I thought “shitting eggs” was HILARIOUS.

59. @ 52/53 “shitting sperm”

    As a masculinist I am deeply offended by such a misandristic and biologically inaccurate turn of phrase. For shame!

60. perversecowgirl, you’re putting the worst possible read on this guy. He’s new to being found attractive, and he wants to explore the world AND hang on to his secure base. That’s unreasonable, foolish and more than a tad selfish, but “hell, I don’t want to lose what I have!” is a natural reaction to somebody on their first go-round. It’d be exactly the same dynamic for the gf if she was having these feelings, and perhaps even more understandable at 28 than 24. I’ve been that guy. Girls who were with me have been that guy. None of us were assholes, we were just confused and hoping for gains without losing what we had. Wrong, but not evil.

61. There are three couples in Canada who qualify as “first” – the two couples married in 2001 by Rev. Brent Hawkes in a challenge to the law, whose marriages were retroactively recognized by the government in 2003, and the first couple issued a license by the government in 2003.

    I have not heard of ANY of these couples divorcing, nor was I able to find any evidence that they have.

    Dan, if you’re aware of any, please let us know or else please correct your column.

62. FANTASY may just be 18 years old and boy crazy. Of course she wants what’s forbidden. One good drinking binge and she will end up fucking the other guys’ brains out, loving it, and then being horrified the next morning. Could be a good way to end the crush, though.

    Still, living at such close quarters seems a bit of a powder keg. Maybe she should concentrate on her college coursework and join the track and field team to work off some of that excess energy.

63. Yeah, “shitting eggs” made me cringe a bit too. It does seem needlessly harsh. Then again, it’s too idiotic to actually offend me. A woman doesn’t release multiple “eggs” during ovulation — though many people are stupid enough to think that — only a single, delicate ovum, tiny enough to fit on the head of a pin. So yeah, the bandying about of a phrase like this would only announce to me that the speaker was a vulgar moron not to be taken seriously, it wouldn’t upset me.

64. creativityescapesme @35, “the stereotypical portrayal of the feminist idea of what an MRA {mens’ rights activist} is” would probably be an angry, middle-aged man going through a divorce, and surfing the internet for Russian brides. So, nothing to do with MRA in this column at all.

    However, I was a little surprised at how clear-eyed and unapologetic about his obviously assholish plan MRA was. Don’t know what’s up with that.

65. “Women tend to be attracted to one type of guy when they’re not ovulating (nicer guys: good parents and helpful partners) and a different type of guy when they are ovulating (rougher guys: lousy parents and worse partners).”

    This smacks of evo-psych and I hate it.

66. @65: That doesn’t make it any less true:

    http://www.livescience.com/8779-fertile-…

67. Seeker6079 (#60), MRA explicitly tells us that he treats this woman badly enough to make her cry, that she’s not important to him, but that he wants to string her along because she’s “a pillar of support” for him. This is not an uncharitable or biased interpretation, this is what he actually fucking says.

    Above and beyond any of the other situational shit – he’d like to fuck around while still having security, blah blah whatever – wanting to keep someone in your life so you can treat them like shit while taking advantage of their good nature is…not something good people do.

68. rolando74: the funniest thing about evopsych is usually the rapidity with which it is hailed by antifeminists (who grab on to everything that will support their position, regardless of context) and the equal rapidity with which it is rejected by feminists (who will instantly reject it and question the validity of all of it, no matter what).

    I don’t give a damn either way, so like the person watching Shia LeBoeuf and some other fool smack each other in Vancouver I’m free to enjoy the show without a dog in the hunt.

69. “shitting eggs” equates eggs with shit. Unnecessary crassness.

70. @59: Now THERE you go—-shitting sperm!!!!
    LOL!!!! I LOVE it!!!!

71. That’s what I call some “messed up spunk”—male OR female!

72. I’m fine with shitting eggs.

    Do we read Dan Savage for his incisive insights or super-polite manners and political correctness?

    Carry on and thanks,Dan!

73. @67, in my experience, people who boast of their callousness are usually assholes, whereas people who beat themselves up are usually depressed. Maybe you’ve met a different brand of asshole than I have.

74. Three things…

    1. Dan was SPOT ON with the assesment of the first LR. A lot of unattractive guys think they’re attractive and/or deserve attractive women. No good looking guy makes it to 23 with his Vcard intact unless he’s an evangelical waiting for marriage. Hell, no AVERAGE looking guy makes it that long. This is the kind of guy I want to kick in the teeth for hitting on me presuming he’s in my league. Ugh.

    2. Shitting eggs is gross, but Dan finds women ‘icky’ so what do you want. The evolutionary psych he delves into is more troubling. In case anyone’s wondering Evolutionary Psych is about as scientific as homeopathy.

    If you don’t understand how much of a burn that is, then I give up.

    3. 26 is absolutely right, and it’s something sorely neglected from Dan’s response.

75. I have to call Dan out, as well as poster #1 among others: nowhere did this guy say that he’s “entitled” to a hot girlfriend, or that he “deserves” one. He just WANTS one, but also feels guilty about it.

    Dan wouldn’t be slinging around words like “entitled” if the guy were in search of a smarter girlfriend, or a kinder one. But because it’s considered bad form (or antifeminist, or whatever) to openly admit to doing what MRA has done, especially since it confirms some of women’s worst fears about men, we use loaded words to describe his behavior. We can’t just say “he wants someone hotter”; we have to say he thinks he DESERVES it, so as to turn him into an intolerable cartoon, and distance ourselves from his bad behavior so as to avoid guilt by association.

    I’ve been in a position like MRA’s. Shortly after I started having sex, I met a girl who was perfect for me in almost every way, except one: I wasn’t very attracted to her, and knew that most people considered her of below-average attractiveness. Plus, like MRA, I really wanted to date someone hot at least once or twice, so I knew what it felt like to be with someone mindmeltingly attractive. But I ignored the warning signals and ended up in a monogamous relationship with this girl, didn’t treat her as well as I should have, and it all ended badly.

    And — this is the important part — like MRA, I think my guilt made things worse. If I’d just slept with this girl a few times and then dumped her, it would’ve hurt her and she would’ve said bad things about me, but then we would’ve moved on. Instead, I wasted years of both our lives trying not to be “that guy”, when in reality it probably would have been better for everyone if I’d just been more of a douche.

76. @66 if this is the study you’re referring to, it looks like crap:
    http://www.livescience.com/8779-fertile-…

    >> The researchers recruited 66 monogamous heterosexual couples. Women took a hormone test to determine their phase in the menstrual cycle. Next, over the course of a month, the women came to the lab three times to answer a questionnaire on their sexual attractions and fantasies. One of the sessions was scheduled for each woman’s fertile period, while the other two were during the luteal, or non-fertile, phase of the menstrual cycle. >>

    If that’s accurate, then they may not even have been testing the women when they were fertile. One hormone test isn’t going to let you know when the woman will ovulate later in the month. Also, that site doesn’t provide enough info to how statistically significant the study was.

    Just because something is published doesn’t make it true.

77. I can’t help but feel MRA is written by the girlfriend. It is too precise and highly self-critical, while noting she is (unconventionally) attractive and a pillar of support. Yeah, they were both inexperienced, he was an ass, she allowed him to jerk her around… and it’s just a backwards way of getting Dan to that this guy is the asshole she thinks he is!

    [I’m not saying it’s this way, there are many highly sensitive men who are self critical of the crappy results of being new to dating… but it just seems too perfect]

78. I have to call Dan out, as well as poster #1 among others: nowhere did this guy say that he’s “entitled” to a hot girlfriend, or that he “deserves” one. He just WANTS one, but also feels guilty about it.

    Dan wouldn’t be slinging around words like “entitled” if the guy were in search of a smarter girlfriend, or a kinder one. But because it’s considered bad form (or antifeminist, or whatever) to openly admit to doing what MRA has done, especially since it confirms some of women’s worst fears about men, we use loaded words to describe his behavior. We can’t just say “he wants someone hotter”; we have to say he thinks he DESERVES it, so as to turn him into an intolerable cartoon, and distance ourselves from his bad behavior so as to avoid guilt by association.

    I’ve been in a position like MRA’s. Shortly after I started having sex, I met a girl who was perfect for me in almost every way, except one: I wasn’t very attracted to her, and knew that most people considered her of below-average attractiveness. Plus, like MRA, I really wanted to date someone hot at least once or twice, so I knew what it felt like to be with someone mindmeltingly attractive. But I ignored the warning signals and ended up in a monogamous relationship with this girl, didn’t treat her as well as I should have, and it all ended badly.

    And — this is the important part — like MRA, I think my guilt made things worse. If I’d just slept with this girl a few times and then dumped her, it would’ve hurt her and she would’ve said bad things about me, but then we would’ve moved on. Instead, I wasted years of both our lives trying not to be “that guy”, when in reality it probably would have been better for everyone if I’d just been more of a douche.

79. I agree, Dan, that MRA should not be in that relationship, but before he leaves, he needs to apologize and admit to his girlfriend that he is the kind of guy who would dump a woman like her over her looks. He has every right to dump her if he wants to, but he also has an obligation to her to take responsibility for being an asshole.

80. @81: Yeah, absolutely agreed. That was a dumb comment on Dan’s part, and another example of demonizing someone because you don’t like what they have to say. It doesn’t really matter whether he’s hot or fugly.

    @82: That’s a monumentally stupid idea. Taking responsibility for being an asshole, yes, but telling her that he dumped her because she wasn’t hot enough for him? Yeah, that’ll give her closure.

81. “I take umbrage at the idea that being a virgin until 23 means you are not hot. You are confusing not being a slut with not being hot.” => no, no. When you’re hot and not a slut, you still have, like everyone, your hormones bursting from 13 to 23 (let’s say), and other teenagers too. So chances are : if you don’t get laid before 23, that’s not because you’re “not a slut”, just because you’re not hot, OR you really don’t want it. Which does not mean everyone who’s fucking younger than that is a slut. That means you found good reasons not to fuck before. Dan didn’t take a big risk by saying that.

    About the ‘ovulation experiment’, the studies that have been made around this weren’t very accurate, nothing’s really proved, and that’s what we call “neuro-sexism” in journalism. That’s very fancy, nowadays, to publish bullshit studies, ’cause there won’t be a lot of journalist who will check if the study was made randomly, double-blinded, on a large enough amount of individuals. And even, few would publish it. Cf. Ben Goldacre’s book “Bad Science” 😉

    I hope Dan will read the comments, and care about checking very carefully this kind of theory.

82. “I take umbrage at the idea that being a virgin until 23 means you are not hot. You are confusing not being a slut with not being hot.” => no, no. When you’re hot and not a slut, you still have, like everyone, your hormones bursting from 13 to 23 (let’s say), and other teenagers too. So chances are : if you don’t get laid before 23, that’s not because you’re “not a slut”, just because you’re not hot, OR you really don’t want it. Which does not mean everyone who’s fucking younger than that is a slut. That means you found good reasons not to fuck before. Dan didn’t take a big risk by saying that.

    About the ‘ovulation experiment’, the studies that have been made around this weren’t very accurate, nothing’s really proved, and that’s what we call “neuro-sexism” in journalism. That’s very fancy, nowadays, to publish bullshit studies, ’cause there won’t be a lot of journalist who will check if the study was made randomly, double-blinded, on a large enough amount of individuals. And even, few would publish it. Cf. Ben Goldacre’s book “Bad Science” 😉

    I hope Dan will read the comments, and care about checking very carefully this kind of theory.

83. (sorry for the double !)

84. For my part I thought “shitting eggs” was pretty damn funny. You don’t come to Savage Love for politesse and delicacy, you guys.

    And the changing-desires-during-ovulation thing is actual science, not some evo-psych Just So Story. For what it’s worth. Go look it up.

85. @81 cockyballsup: Thank you and God bless!!! Spot on (no pun intended)!!

86. The problem with the ovulation-specific explanation for this girl is that she says that “I want to fuck the new guy’s brains out all the time.” She does reference not having “an out-of-this-world libido” but doesn’t say she only wants to have sex with her boyfriend for three days in a row each month, so it seems pretty obvious that she’s attracted to both simultaneously (if not for the same reasons/in the same way/with the same intensity) which means that the cycle theory, whether crap or not, cannot apply.

    More likely explanation? She has a more active libido than she thinks, but things have cooled (or were never that hot) with her boyfriend, and she’s getting nudges from her body and subconscious or whatever when she’s around potential sexual partners. My guess is if she were honest with herself she’d realize that she has sexual thoughts about a lot of guys that she encounters in her life (hot T.A., random guy who smiled at her at a party, carful of highschool boys who whistled at her on the street, ancient professor who’s still a little bit hot in a tweedy kind of way, etc.). It’s just that she’s around the roommate more than anybody else, so she’s more aware of it and the passing thoughts/fantasies have had the opportunity to grow into something more inescapable. This is totally normal whether she wants to stay in her relationship with BF or not, and DOES NOT mean that roommate is a good option for next BF or fuck buddy; just that he’s most ubiquitous.

    Obviously a little introspection about her relationship and being so committed so young is in order, but I think others have pretty much covered that.

87. @89: Another reason you missed — sometimes people are fat, and lose weight in their early 20s. I’ve known a few people through the years who were severely obese, but turned out to be drop-dead gorgeous at a much lower weight.

    (Yes, people can be gorgeous and overweight — some people are even at their most beautiful when they’re quite a bit overweight — but most people look far more attractive when they’re not 100+ lbs. overweight. Being very, very fat distorts a person’s face in ways most of us find unappealing, even if the rest of them were skinny as can be.)

88. @87 – I asked (@49) for someone to point me in the direction of some “actual science, as you say. @66 tried and failed. Put up or shut up.

89. I must admit, I’m a woman, a lesbian, and a feminist, and I found the “shitting eggs” line hi-lar-ious!

90. FANTASY, I don’t know how “long-term” this boyfriend is, but it could just be the novelty of a new partner to fantasize about that is getting your libido running. It happens whenever you find a new person to fantasize about. Don’t read too much into it, unless you want to end your current relationship. He may be terrible for you, or not. In any case, enjoy the boost in your libido, fuck your boyfriend if you’re horny, and don’t dare make a move on him until the living situation changes. If you don’t want to crush on him, make a point of keeping a mental list of his faults. The crush will wear off soon enough.

91. “shitting eggs” made me laugh out loud. In fact, I’m shitting some myself right now. (and F “Aunt Flow” – from now on I’m shitting eggs!)

92. Shitting eggs, shooting shit, it’s all in fun.

93. Dan’s response to MRA is kind of reverse DTMFA. It’s DHBYAAMF (Dump Him/Her Because YOU Are A MF).

94. shitting eggs? was that really necessary?

95. @ 36 Married — We don’t get stuck in dull, we marry some freaky, appreciative woman who can wrap her head around the fact that nice can co-exist with sexy and hot. Madonnas can be whores, nice guys can be wicked lovers. The rules are total bullshit and should be ignored.

    -Another supportive husband

96. http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/~lchang/mater…

    There is a reputable study from 2007. I remember learning about these studies in Psych 101!
    When a female is ovulating we are looking for a mate that has high testosterone levels (characterized by jutting brow and jaw bones, thick body hair, and surprisingly thinning or balding) because we are genetically programmed to believe they will produce the best offspring. When we are not ovulating we are looking for men who would be good fathers and protect our offspring.

97. http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/~lchang/mater…

    There is a reputable study from 2007. I remember learning about these studies in Psych 101!
    When a female is just about to ovulate (not when we are ovulating) we are looking for a mate that has high testosterone levels (characterized by jutting brow and jaw bones, thick body hair, and surprisingly thinning or balding) because we are genetically programmed to believe they will produce the best offspring. When we are less fertile we are less interested in these characteristics and more so in good father figures.

98. I’m a woman and I didn’t think twice when I read the phrase “shitting eggs.” But now that my attention has been drawn to it, I must say the comment is kinda funny.

99. @101/102, thanks for the link. But it’s not solid evidence. They did not test whether the 238 women were actually fertile during the period when they were assumed to be fertile:

    “Based on actuarial estimates of women’s fertility risk given both the day of their cycle when they made the ratings and the typical length of their cycle…”

    “Women who did not provide information sufficient to determine their cycle day.” So it was entirely self-reported, and would be screwed up by women misremembering the day their last period started (very common), or being over-confident about the length of their cycle (also common at that age).

    “We assumed that the typical day of ovulation was approximately 15 days prior to the end of the typical cycle.” If you used such assumptions to decide when to use birth control, you might soon find yourself pregnant.

    They knew what they wanted to find. They went and found it. Garbage in, garbage out.

    They include unnecessarily strong claims like:
    “Women are attracted to features attractive in short-term mates (but not long-term mates) when fertile and, when their partners do not possess these features, they are particularly drawn to men other than their partners.”

    Um, not me, I’ve been on bc hormones for twenty years. Still a woman, last time I checked.

100. “Shitting eggs”?

     O.K. Dan. We get it. You’re the gayest gay who ever gayed. In case anyone is ever on the verge of forgetting how gross you think women’s bodies are, you throw something in every third column or so to remind us.

     I’m confused by how (in the same column, no less) you can be sensitive to women as people and a minute later throw out a little something nasty to let us know you still think we’re gross.

     I’m starting to think maybe the lady doth protest too much. That’s IT! Dan secretly wants to bang BBW. Mystery solved.

101. Guys? I think I’m going to start referring to your balls as a turd-sack. Not out of hostility. Just ‘cuz it’s a funny play on words, see?

     And because balls kinda look like a sack of turds. Admit it. You know I’m right.

102. I loved the shitting egg comment. It didn’t stick with me until everyone complained because their panties are to tight and up there asses. It is a fucking joke.

103. But it really is like our vaginas murdered someone and have to get rid of the evidence.

104. @48, 50

     As someone who just recently married the person who I have been dating since I was 16 (I am 25), I have to say that I am very, very, very glad that I did not listen to my hormones at 18-19.

     We had to do long distance relationship for the 4 years we were in college, and I know that I would have done a lot of things (people) that I would now regret. I am so glad that I was able to talk myself out of the random crushes that I formed that were based just on appearance.

     I know that in this column it is often mentioned that married couples have crushes—and that it can be a fun part of a relationship to talk about these little crushes, as both partners know that they are not serious.

     Why is this advice not given to this girl? Just because she is 18 does not mean she does not know what she wants. Its a little pet peeve of mine as for the first 3 years of my relationship I was told by just about everyone that I needed to be realistic about my relationship; I was told long distance relationships/transitioning high school to college relationships never last. Well, here I am almost 10 years later.

105. Turd sack.

106. @48, 50

     As someone who just recently married the person who I have been dating since I was 16 (I am 25), I have to say that I am very, very, very glad that I did not listen to my hormones at 18-19.

     We had to do long distance relationship for the 4 years we were in college, and I know that my hormones would have had me sleeping with a lot more people than I wanted to. We kept a monogamous relationship which worked for us, though we did tell each other about the crushes that we had on this hot guy at the bar, or this girl in Statistics. Our communication made our relationship work.

     Before you jump to the conclusion that she needs to dump this guy and explore, realize that that is not for everybody. It sure wasn’t for me. I found a great guy early, and I am glad I did not dump him for the first hot guy that wandered by. And I really do not feel like I have missed a thing.

107. Gah sorry for two posts! The first was a rough draft that accidentally posted. Oops.

108. You should be out of the gene pool, mra. The last thing the world needs is another self-absorbed egomaniac who wants permission to abuse some stupid woman who deserves you, actually, and I know that because she obviously hasn’t disfigured or crippled you in order to spare you the trouble of agonizing over whether someone else is the one who is truly hot enough for you. Do I sound a bit pissed off? I’m a bit embarrassed because I could be you, but I’m smarter. I also practise zero tolerance of self-indulgent morons. That means Zero tolerance, dude. I encourage everyone I know to practise zero tolerance of people like you as well. Don’t even think of polluting the species any further. You are not what Darwin had in mind when he formulated the theory of survival of the fittest.

109. “shitting egs”…bahahahahaha! Love it! gives me an excuse for my overactive libido

110. Shitting eggs is a fantastic way to describe the asshattery we do when in that state.

111. *eggs*…oops…was laughing while typing :p

112. I’m gonna be laughing all the way into menoshit now!

113. Shitting eggs for ovulation is a bit over the line. If anything shitting eggs should be during your period, natural, kinda icky, ridding the body of something no longer serving a useful purpose.

114. She’s 18. Good grief. There was a time when, more often than now, girls like her were dumb enough to marry the first boy they liked and live most of their life assuming they had low libidos and just weren’t that into sex.

     And THAT’S when the sexy roomie (or gardener, or coworker) would come around and snap them out of it.

115. @107 and everyone who cries “Panties! Wad! Panties! Wad!”

     “Shitting eggs” isn’t a joke, it’s a vulgar (and obviously intentionally humorous) Savage-ism for ovulating. Just as “canned ham dropped from a great height” was an early Savage-ism for vagina. It sounds funny and, oh hey? It’s also hostile.

     Why is it cool for ol’ Dan to get his turd-sack in a wad when someone cracks wise about the gay, but not cool to call Dan out on his hostility towards lady bits and breeder-type sex? Um, I guess that would be because most of the people reading this column are Dan fans and have their heads crammed so far up his accepting butthole they’ll defend everything he writes, whether merely direct or openly assholish.

     Hey y’all, I love SL too. That doesn’t mean I blindly swallow everything he spews. Dan himself publicly apologized (as much as an apology as he ever gives) for the canned ham comment. He’s not completely un-self aware, thank god. Defend the comment all you want, it’s still openly truculent.

116. @101
     Ovulatory shifts in human female ornamentation: Near ovulation, women dress to impress
     http://www.sscnet.ucla.edu/comm/haselton…

     Changes in Women’s Mate Preferences Across the Ovulatory Cycle
     http://www.fed.cuhk.edu.hk/~lchang/mater…

     Reading men’s faces: women’s mate attractiveness judgments track men’s testosterone and interest in infants
     http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles…

     Women with high-pitched voices go nuts over men with deep voices
     http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/blog/2…

     Sexual dimorphism of male face shape, partnership status and the temporal context
     of relationship sought modulate women’s preferences for direct gaze
     http://alittlelab.stir.ac.uk/pubs/Conway…

     Effects of menstrual cycle phase on face preferences
     http://www.mendeley.com/research/effects…

     Men’s Faces Convey Information about Their Bodies and Their Behavior: What You See is What You Get
     http://www.epjournal.net/filestore/ep064…

     Interactions between masculinity–femininity and apparent health in face preferences
     http://beheco.oxfordjournals.org/content…

     Raised salivary testosterone in women is associated with increased attraction to masculine faces.
     http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/art…

     Menstrual cycle alters face preference. Nature 1999;399:741-742.
     http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v39…

     Fink, B., & Penton-Voak, I. (2002). Evolutionary psychology of facial attractiveness.
     http://cdp.sagepub.com/content/11/5/154.…

     Wikipedia:
     http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_at…

117. I knew a gay couple years ago in Austin. One owned a gay bar and the other managed it. It soon became apparent that their sexual foreplay consisted of public argument. Then they would go home and have great “make-up sex.” That was their thing, until every gay bar in town had thrown them out and barred them because of the adverse impact their fights were having on other bar customers. Finally, we realized that was why they went to other bars to fight, so that they wouldn’t drive the customers out of their own bar!

118. How right you are @65, how right you are. Sometimes Dan is poppsych major and has a weird interpretation of facts that are plain dumb.

119. @120, well said! I think shitting eggs is funny because it’s just funny. I see it as him being a jackass all around, not just to the ladies.

     No doubt, the canned ham, the ignoring attacks on our rights to reproduce & the general sexism catholicism & being gay has bred in him come out – but this column, I thought was just damned funny. Well said.

120. Dan, I love you, but your response to FANTASY really weirds me out.

     Speaking as someone with degrees in related fields (a BSc in Biological Anthropology and an MA in Social Science Research), who is about as pro-science and pro-Darwin as you can get- I think you need to be more cautious about referencing evopsych research in your columns.

     A LOT of evopsych studies are based on results from a small number of Western college students (either explicitly hetero, or just presumed so). There are excellent reasons for this (finite research budgets being one of them), but a good researcher will highlight the fact that their study was based on a limited sample, and then ideally go on to do follow-up research on a wider range of people (David Perrett is a good example of an evopsych researcher who does both these things, as well as being a generally cool guy).

     Too many evopsych writers, however, will just cite a study on a tiny number of straight Western college students and then trumpet the findings as if they apply to the entire human species throughout history. It pays to be cautious.

     Beyond that, evopsych is supposed to be talking about universal human tendencies- which makes it a poor source for advice tips to one specific person, IMO. Think about it- say someone wrote in to you saying “I’m a man married to a woman, but I’m pretty sure that I’m 100% gay, and now my wife is talking about having kids together.” Would you respond with “well, 90% of men are straight, and we’ve all evolved to be good at reproducing, so statistically speaking you should suck it up and get her pregnant”?

     Speaking as a woman who ovulates- in my specific experience, there have been phases of my life where my sex drive has felt like it was rising and falling in relation to whether I was ovulating, and phases where it hasn’t. But it’s never been my experience that the TYPE of person I’m attracted to has changed over the course of a cycle. For all I know this makes me a minority among women, but it makes me cautious about using the ovulation theory as a major basis for your advice to some woman you’ve never met- especially when she’s 18 years old and probably has a pretty vulnerable sexual identity.

     Also- it sounds kind of like you’re saying that “manly men” and “nice guys” are two completely separate groups of people. I’m familiar with the line of evopsych logic you’re drawing from, but it seems like a weird thing to say in a more general sex advice context, especially since you’re generally pretty good at calling out people who try to apply only one standard of “manliness” to everyone with a Y chromosome.

     TLDR: I generally agree with your advice, but I think you dropped the ball on this one.

121. Dan, I love you, but your response to FANTASY really weirds me out.

     Speaking as someone with degrees in related fields (a BSc in Biological Anthropology and an MA in Social Science Research), who is about as pro-science and pro-Darwin as you can get- I think you need to be more cautious about referencing evopsych research in your columns.

     A LOT of evopsych studies are based on results from a small number of Western college students (either explicitly hetero, or just presumed so). There are excellent reasons for this (finite research budgets being one of them), but a good researcher will highlight the fact that their study was based on a limited sample, and then ideally go on to do follow-up research on a wider range of people (David Perrett is a good example of an evopsych researcher who does both these things, as well as being a generally cool guy).

     Too many evopsych writers, however, will just cite a study on a tiny number of straight Western college students and then trumpet the findings as if they apply to the entire human species throughout history. It pays to be cautious.

     Beyond that, evopsych is supposed to be talking about universal human tendencies- which makes it a poor source for advice tips to one specific person, IMO. Think about it- say someone wrote in to you saying “I’m a man married to a woman, but I’m pretty sure that I’m 100% gay, and now my wife is talking about having kids together.” Would you respond with “well, 90% of men are straight, and we’ve all evolved to be good at reproducing, so statistically speaking you should suck it up and get her pregnant”?

     Speaking as a woman who ovulates- in my specific experience, there have been phases of my life where my sex drive has felt like it was rising and falling in relation to whether I was ovulating, and phases where it hasn’t. But it’s never been my experience that the TYPE of person I’m attracted to has changed over the course of a cycle. For all I know this makes me a minority among women, but it makes me cautious about using the ovulation theory as a major basis for your advice to some woman you’ve never met- especially when she’s 18 years old and probably has a pretty vulnerable sexual identity.

     Also- it sounds kind of like you’re saying that “manly men” and “nice guys” are two completely separate groups of people. I’m familiar with the line of evopsych logic you’re drawing from, but it seems like a weird thing to say in a more general sex advice context, especially since you’re generally pretty good at calling out people who try to apply only one standard of “manliness” to everyone with a Y chromosome.

     TLDR: I generally agree with your advice, but I think you dropped the ball on this one.

122. Well, another feminist here. I thought the “eggs” comment was hostile and not funny, and it jumped out at me as I read it before I even got to the comments.

     I DO like “turd sack” though. It’s a much better visual.

123. Agreeing with 125. The “nicest” guy I ever dated was also the manliest- the biggest and strongest, with the heaviest jaw and muskiest smell and earliest testosterone-caused pattern balding. The biggest jerk was a weedy artiste, under six feet with a pointy chin.

124. Ms Emalie – Granted, many gay males are sexist, but how does simply being gay breed sexism?

     I agree with Ms Apoptetic that Mr Savage’s term was vulgar with a side of hostility. She found an excellent counterpart; they’re both overreactions to some quantity of justification.

125. Let’s imagine that the studies on women’s varying attractions during different times in the cycle were based on better research methods. Imagine that there were more in the study, that it was known when they were fertile, the whole shebang. It would still only say something about what sort of men the women were attracted to and therefore who they were slightly more likely bed. ATTRACTED to is the operative word.

     None of that discounts the hundreds of other factors that go into choosing mates. That’s a choice of a one night stand, the choice of a monogamous marriage, the choice of a monogamish marriage, or the choice of a long term affair.

     Think of all the reasons we’re attracted to someone and don’t end up having sex with them. Looks pretty but is something of a jerk, don’t want to ruin a committed relationship, have to catch a bus, to name 3 out of thousands more.

     This is why I find evolutionary psychology interesting, maybe closer to fascinating. I really like the subject and think it has a lot to teach us about the human condition. But call it science to the extent of basing policy on it? Apply it to an 18 year old asking for advice? To do so would be to dismiss everything else about her situation and personality. That’s an insult right there.

     Thus my advice to FANTASY– Move out! Get out of that living situation. Then talk to your boyfriend about your attractions to other men (without getting specific about the (ex)roommate). See what he thinks. You don’t know if he wants to be committed and faithful at age 18 and thinks he’s ready for that. You don’t know if he’s been thinking along the same lines and wants to break up.

     But whatever you do, don’t start an affair with the roommate such that you’re cheating on your boyfriend in his own house. That’s just mean, and nothing in your letter suggests that he’s done anything to deserve that.

126. Why does straight best man care about gay divorce rates? I think that was a concern troll. One thing you don’t hear about gay marriage, especially with men, is the very low rates of men taking advantage of the right to marry (where it exists). Marriage is about 2 things, property and children. Since most men can’t pop over to the sperm bank to grow a fetus (or pop over to a frat party for the budget conscious gayelle) marriage is only really important for end of life medical decisions and inheritance (I would say immigration, but because of DOMA gay spouses can’t immigrate). And besides, romantically, most gay men are like Liz Taylor, but with more sense and less money to waste on divorce lawyers.

127. I say leave MRA alone. We don’t know the full extent of the situation. I would guess that his girlfriend is very clingy and that is the main reason he keeps her around, and it sounds like he is being as charitable as possible about how supportive she is of him. There was a reason he was a dick to her, and I think it had a lot more to do with her personality than her looks. I think MRA is trying to paint a nice picture of her and being very selfcritical at the same time. She is obviously more desperate than him (4 years older, and she hadn’t even dated a guy before). He just wasn’t that into her, and her efforts to make it into more than it was caused him to be a dick to her because he really wanted out. She didn’t take the hint, and now he’s STILL stuck with her and because he is almost as inexperienced as her he feels bad about dumping her. His instincts are right. He needs to make a clean break and stop settling (I’m not talking about settling for someone’s looks, I’m talking about settling for someone he’s not that into). Dan is telling him he is worthless and will probably never get anyone else, and that’s probably how he felt and part of why he stayed with the girl (in addition to the guilt of breaking someone’s heart). That kind of kindness is ultimately cruelty. And it leads him to more guilt and feeling shitty. If you find yourself being an asshole to someone when you aren’t normally an asshole to everyone, it’s time to step back and consider that maybe deep down you don’t like them and don’t want to be around them. Deciding the fault was his own shallow standards and then sticking with the clinger did no favors to anyone.

128. @129 (Crinoline): Well said.

129. “Shitting eggs:”
     It’s kind of funny.
     It’s kind of gross.
     It’s kind of misogynistic.
     It’s kind of guaranteed to get a lot of response.
     It’s kind of deliberate
     And it’s representative of the way that Dan often expresses himself: like a fifteen-year-old hoping to shock. Phrases like “fuck the shit out of,” “asshat,” “douchebag” (covered somewhat extensively in a recent podcast), “batshit,” are not chosen for their subtlety or nuance. If you don’t like that kind of talk, you probably shouldn’t be reading or listening to this column.

     You don’t necessarily have to lose your feminist card by laughing at it, either.

     Although in thinking about it, I realize that Dan is somewhat obsessed with excrement . . .

130. This egg-shitter lulzed hard @ “shitting eggs.”

131. really? Because I thought the “go fuck your boyfriend’s brains out while you’re shitting eggs” is hilllaaarriiiooouuussss. Also, I am female.

132. Oh God, that last letter could’ve been about my sister and her boyfriend; they’ve been together 11 years and all they do is fight every moment they’re awake. Just like our parents did. AAGH! No wonder I’m single!!

133. @132 re 129 – seconded.

134. 125– Nice. Good essay. I wish I’d said it as well.

     Now let me weigh in on shitting eggs. If there’s anything followers of this column have learned (or should have) it’s that there’s a huge variety in what we find sexually attractive. A related concept is that there’s a huge variety in what we find disgusting.

     My tastes are utterly ordinary (healthy men, roughly my age, that I have something in common with and can talk to, who find me attractive in return). Deep down, I suppose I’m a little weirded out by the idea that there are women out there who aren’t attracted to the same, but I’m polite enough not to make a big deal out of it or to make fun of them (or to support laws that make them outcasts).

     Same goes for tastes in disgusting. Again, I’m utterly mainstream. I’m not big on body wastes like piss, shit, or menstrual flow (though I rather like the smell of underarm sweat) and consider them things that should be disposed of sanitarily. BUT, I’m polite enough to acknowledge that people are different. I’m not thrilled with the idea that there are people out there who think my body when ovulating is disgusting like shit, but I can live with it.

     My verdict: Not especially funny, but not particularly insulting either.

135. You’re right @128, I said that wrong. Not all gay men are sexist – some are (been to the Orphan Andy’s in the Castro??) Sorry to imply that all gay men were.

136. @133 – you nailed it.

137. @101 “Participants were 76 men (who had been interviewed and videotaped
     while competing for a possible lunch date) and 238 women (who rated the
     attractiveness of men from the videotapes).”

     … you call that “reputable” ? At least 1000 women would have been enough to give a significative result. And let’s remind what a serious protocol means : when you’re looking for a difference, don’t try just to experiment what would prove your point, try as well what wouldn’t.

138. And thanks EricaP (104) & Crinoline (125) !

139. Shitting eggs is a terrible thing to say. You should never make up funny turns of phrase to describe things, especially if they are lewd. That would make you an asshole, a douchebag, or a crusty old cunt.
     Also, we should all act like crusty old cunts when someone tries to be funny.

140. this feminist is loving the ‘shitting eggs’ metaphor, thanx man, peace

141. Sorry 132 but if he simply wasn’t into her he could’ve broken up with her. Treating her like shit is not a viable option.

142. @110: LOL!! I love it!

     Yes, all kidding aside, it’s as many posters have already aptly pointed out: Dan is gay, therefore, the vulgar sexist barbs at women (i.e: shitting eggs, uteruses and vaginas described as “canned hams dropped from 30 story buildings”, etc.). I think it’s more Midwestern-bred acidic sarcasm than any direct hostility toward women.

     Thanks, Dan, for a continually great column, and all of you posting—I haven’t laughed this hard in months!

143. Sorry 132 but if MRA no longer wanted to be with his girlfriend he should’ve just broken up with her. Treating her like shit is not an option.

144. Shitting eggs is awesome and feels qutie appropriate when I’m ovluating. It will go well with “shitting out a crotch fruit” which is already part of my lexicon.

145. @ peeps who think to much on shitting eggs: if you are any bit of feminist you think you are you would have commented on the “douchebag MRA’s” letter of horror instead of shittin’eggs.

     for instance:
     @79 good point you have there.

     love,
     eggshitter.

146. “shitting eggs”? REALLY?

     EARTH TO DAN, YOUR SEXISM IS SHOWING.
     Yes, you have less than a LOT of guys out there.
     But that’s just fucking rude, yo.

     Disapprove.

147. Some people on here are using ovulation and menstruation as synonyms and that would be incorrect. Ovulation is the release of an egg 14(ish) days after menstruation. You still menstruate regardless of if you ovulate (due to birth control, breastfeeding, ect.)

148. “shitting eggs”

     Personally I could have done without it. Its not sexism just because its vulgar. Men are pretty gross about themselves too. It would be sexist to expect men to write a sonnet every time they mentioned girl parts. Honestly, how tedious would that be? Not just to write but to fucking read.

149. @146: “Sorry 132 but if he simply wasn’t into her he could’ve broken up with her. Treating her like shit is not a viable option.”

     …unless she’s one of those women who knows how to exploit his guilt, and likes to hold it over his head. Remember, this isn’t a guy who just wants hot chicks; this is a guy who wants hot chicks AND FEELS GUILTY ABOUT IT.

     Everyone wants to conceive of MRA’s girlfriend as some saintly figure, but it’s just as possible that she’s some passive-aggressive, manipulative creature who knows exactly how to push the right buttons. She was probably attracted to him in part because she knew she could set up this kind of dynamic, where he’s always the bad guy with the wandering cock, and she’s always the victim who’d be Ever So Good To Him If Only He Could Love Her The Way She Deserves.

     He thinks he’s treating her like shit; maybe sometimes he is, because no doubt he has incredible resentment towards her, but maybe she’s also acting the part of the martyr to exploit his guilt.

     The older I get, the more reliably I find that whenever there’s a situation where one person looks like a saint and the other one looks like Dr. Evil, it’s usually the saint that’s the bigger asshole.

150. “Shitting eggs” was hilarious!

     Men don’t think with their dicks? Women don’t deal with hormonal fluctuations? Don’t be such a bunch of hipsters. Accept that you’re human, and recognize that being human means having the ability to identify and mitigate all the times when biology and anatomy conspire to overcome reason.

151. It’s quite a leap from virgin in your 20s to unattractive. I’m 21 and still a virgin, as are a reasonable number of people I know. Some don’t believe in sex before marriage, some aren’t ‘conventionally’ attractive, but there are others, like me (I’m not being oblivious, I’m not smoking hot but I am attractive), who no-one probably would have predicted would still not be getting laid. For me my problem is that I don’t enjoy any of the small talk etc that leads to getting laid, and I send off all the wrong signals.

     And yeah, the last romantic prospect I had I turned down because I didn’t find him a attractive and saw him only as a friend, but for nobody else would you ever suggest they should date someone out of desperation, and I wasn’t going to do it (again). I’m not looking for a model, but someone I could fuck without wanting to think of someone else doesn’t seem too much to ask.

152. “Shitting eggs” was hilarious!

     Men don’t think with their dicks? Women don’t deal with hormonal fluctuations? Don’t be such a bunch of hipsters. Accept that you’re human, and recognize that being human means having the ability to identify and mitigate all the times when biology and anatomy conspire to overcome reason.

153. To all of you hating on MRA, I was in a situation very close to his. When I broke up with my first girlfriend she insisted that we “remain friends”, I put that in quotes because to her that meant she would try to get back together with me and cockblock me. It wasn’t till I quit hanging out with her that we both moved on.

     I wonder how many of you would have a different response if MRA was a woman breaking up with her first boyfriend because she wanted to bang hot men?

154. @158

     If she would have had shitty things to say about his looks and wanted to continue using him as a “pillar of support” while she ran around, keep dangling him, giving him hope while she banged other dudes, the response would have been the same.

     Oh wait. No. It likely would have been far more vitriolic, because the phrase “pillar of support” would have been taken to mean “financial support” and she would have gotten flamed to hell for that.

155. Come on everyone, Dan is funny amongst other great attributes. He’s a funny guy…the “shitting eggs” comment was meant to be funny.

156. All of you defenders (mostly male is my guess) of MRA have to realize that considering the information that we HAVE, not just made up to justify his shitty behavior, makes him a an asshole. He admitted it himself. It really just seems that people are defending against something they feel bad about in the past. I would say the same about a woman, in fact there have been recent letters that address bat shit crazy women (not for the exact same reasons, but just as shallow). Nobody deserves to be used and have mind games played on them, like this guy considered, and still may, do. Don’t men always rag on about how women play mind games? Never fun. I guess I don’t see why he can’t just be the self admitted jerk that he said himself! I also don’t see why people are saying to stay with her, she (and he, so he claims), deserve better.

157. As far as I understand, ovulation is far less like taking a shit and a lot more like popping a zit. So ladies POP eggs every month or so. Or they should.

     But I’ve never seen it happen, only read about it in all my textbooks, so I can’t say for sure.

158. It is interesting to hear Dan repeat the canard that half of marriages end in divorce. He is usually better informed.

159. Ms Emalie – Thank you. Now I won’t lie awake all night with various half-formed theories struggling to piece themselves together.

160. I agree 162. In the end Dan can only advise based on the information given in the letters and emails.

     Maybe MRA ex is manipulative and horrible, or maybe he was a jerk. And I’ll point that it’s not the ex accusing MRA of behaving it’s MRA himself.

161. That should be ‘misbehaving’.

162. EricaP @92–

     Gangestad, S. W., Garver-Apgar, C. E., Simpson, J. A., & Cousins, A. J. (2007). Changes in women’s mate preferences across the ovulatory cycle. Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, 92(1), 151-163. doi:10.1037/0022-3514.92.1.151
     .

     There were a few others, but those were focused on Evolutionary Psychology, which is largely pooh poohed around here.

163. Dear FANTASY:

     Dan’s advice is actually not bad. But if you decide to follow it, please find a new place to live first. Unless of course you enjoy social, emotional, and financial disasters that are beyond Biblically epic.

     Seriously, that’s the kind of shitstorm that took out the dinosaurs.

164. “Shitting eggs” takes me back to a time before Dan became “Mainstream”. When his awesome sense of humor was what kept me searching out his column week after week. I miss him!!!!

165. I’m sorry, “Shitting Eggs” is hysterical.

     Sometimes things are funny because they are so ludicrous.

     Dan Savage knows eggs don’t come out of your rectum. It’s a joke.

     Being humorless is one way to keep people far away from feminism.

166. I also want to add that there is a very common issue among women of this age (especially those with male abandonment in their history) to use sexuality to “make” men love them… They don’t do it consciously or maliciously, but often their libido comes with a sense of power in luring someone to love them. Once the love is there, they quest for the power that getting someone to fall in love with you brings. It becomes addictive.

     I know this happens with men as well, but my specialty is women so I can only speak to that with much confidence.

     She could easily want the new guy simply because he is new, too. Newness makes all sorts of happiness pheromones fire in our brains.

     I’d suggest if she thinks it might be about the power of the “catch”, that she get to the root of her low libido and see if there might be something to it.

     Just a thought.

167. I agree 154. Letters where on side is pure good and the other pure evil are eyebrow raising to me.

     In this case it’s the author who’s admitting to being pure evil and that throws a bit of wrench into things.

168. Rick Santorum Googles Santorum: OMG!

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-txummH…

169. Rick Santorum Googles Santorum: OMG!

     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5y-txummH…

170. @163 Stiny: I’m assuming you’re a guy if you “only read about it in your textbooks”….in high school? College?

     We women ovulate where we menstruate. And it’s more like we plop eggs rather than pop ’em like zits.

     @175: Santiagojjlr: OMG!!! LOL!!!! I love it!!!

171. Dan, Dan, Dan – Late blooming isn’t always an indication of hotness (though this guy’s ego did need a kick in the head as it’s obvious he was a self-absorbed ass). Some people just don’t *get* relationships or in touch with their sexuality until they are older—either because of low self esteem, cluelessness, or they are so damn obsessed with college/whatnot. I was nineteen and my reason was being terrified of men (don’t get me started about my fucked up childhood).

     Also, I’ve met some really ugly fugly people who got laid when they were very young and really nice looking folks who were late bloomers. Before I met my husband I hooked up with a male hottie in his early 20s who was a virgin. He wanted a relationship, I was a little older and not interested in relationships so I just asked for NSA sex (which he eventually agreed to).

     Of course it could be because I’m older now that that early virginity loss = hotness lines are more blurred. Upon a Facebook search, I realized some of the hotties from my high school either had bad genetics or lived life hard, and many of the geeky/dorky/weird kids learned good hygiene, social manners, and/or style. 😉

172. Dan, Dan, Dan – Late blooming isn’t always an indication of hotness (though this guy’s ego did need a kick in the head as it’s obvious he was a self-absorbed ass). Some people just don’t *get* relationships or in touch with their sexuality until they are older—either because of low self esteem, cluelessness, or they are so damn obsessed with college/whatnot. I was nineteen and my reason was being terrified of men (don’t get me started about my fucked up childhood).

     Also, I’ve met some really ugly fugly people who got laid when they were very young and really nice looking folks who were late bloomers. Before I met my husband I hooked up with a male hottie in his early 20s who was a virgin. He wanted a relationship, I was a little older and not interested in relationships so I just asked for NSA sex (which he eventually agreed to).

     Of course it could be because I’m older now that that early virginity loss = hotness lines are more blurred. Upon a Facebook search, I realized some of the hotties from my high school either had bad genetics or lived life hard, and many of the geeky/dorky/weird kids learned good hygiene, social manners, and/or style. 😉

173. On “shitting eggs”:

     The very discussion here in this thread — pros and cons and mehs — supports, I think, the idea that offensive language does have a role to play.

     The question to me is not whether or not “shitting eggs” is offensive — it clearly can be interpreted, and used, as offensive. The question to me is (are), (a) why did Dan say this? Was he trying to offend?, and (b) can you use it non-offensively?

     Plus the overall question that everybody avoids, why do we need offensive language (so that it keeps forming itself no matter how utterly we destroy/avoid/argue against it?)

     Should Danny change? I’d need to know his intention. (If he’s just being ‘boyishly offensive’, as his choice of often disgusting language — remember “fucker mother”? — shows, then I don’t really think there is a need to change.) Should “shitting eggs” remain as an expression? If you like it and find it funny (and there are good arguments for that), use it; if you don’t (and there are good arguments for that, too), don’t; and let the free market decide.

     What I would do? Since I’m usually a mild-mannered guy who’d blush if he ever had to say in public the kinds of sexual words Mr Savage often writes in his columns, I probably will never say “shitting eggs.” But I won’t mind if others do, and even find it a little funny myself. 🙂

174. @163 and 176: Actually, Stiny’s kind of correct. Through the miracle of ultrasound (and the difficulties of fertility treatment) I actually have seen myself ovulate, and it’s kind of like squeezing out a clogged pore or an ingrown hair. Each month one of our many many eggs grows in its own tiny pocket until it looks like a giant (relatively speaking) boil on the side of the ovary, and when it’s ready it “pops” out before making its way to the uterus. This happens entirely internally–nothing leaves the body. Some women might feel a brief pain in their abdomen when it happens; others (including me) feel nothing. “Shitting eggs” comes closer to describing menstruation, when our bodies flush out the unused egg and uterine lining, but that’s at the opposite end of the cycle from ovulation.

     I have to say again that I think that Dan’s advice to FANTASY missed the boat. The ovulation theory is IRRELEVANT to her situation, because there is no evidence that her attraction to either guy waxes and wanes with her cycle–she specifically says that she wants to fuck ugly roomie ALL THE TIME, not three days out of the month. And of course if she’s on the pill or other hormonal BC she’s not ovulating anyway, and all bets are off.

175. Re MRA: I was in a relationship that was nearly perfect in every way except one: The initial attractiveness I felt for her due to common interests and the newness of it all faded over time. After some time I was not sexually attracted to her. Not wanting to be an asshole by dumping an otherwise great woman and hoping perhaps it was just a phase, I stuck with it…for 3 years. Then I did what I should have done years earlier and broke it off, leaving her heartbroken and somewhat bewildered. I was crushed with guilt, but it had to be done.

     “It wasn’t meant to be,” is all I can say about it now and I’ve learned a lot about myself and relationships since then, but there is no way I could have ended the relationship at any point without being an asshole.

     The fact that MRA is being an asshole and *knows* he’s being an asshole indicates he’s not some quite the self-absorbed prick he appears to be at first glance, but that he’s acknowledging his own weakness. He’s not an asshole for wanting an attractive partner; he’s an asshole for not being emotionally committed to the relationship and not letting the g/f go, just as I was.

176. @168 – that’s the same study linked at 101/102. The scientists assumed women were fertile based on actuarial estimates and self-reported “last menstrual period,” but did not check if the women actually were fertile during the test dates. (See @104 for details).

177. @121, I missed your links before – sorry!!

     (Request for those not reading on: if anyone can access #6, that study seems the most likely to have some relevant data for us to discuss: http://www.mendeley.com/research/effects…)

     Otherwise, here are my responses:
     #1 is not bad, except that “all women were judged to have an LH surge between three days after and two days before their high fertility session.” Note that the ones who had the LH surge two or three days after their “high fertility session” weren’t in fact fertile during their “high fertility session,” because they were still about five days from ovulation.

     #2 is the same one I debunked @104

     #3 doesn’t test variance across women’s ovulatory cycle so isn’t relevant

     #4 ditto

     #5 ditto

     #6 I can’t access – can anyone get in and report on how they tested for fertility?

     #7 doesn’t test variance across women’s ovulatory cycle so isn’t relevant

     #8 ditto

     #9 is interesting because it was not measuring fertility per se but instead testosterone in saliva. I’m not sure how that correlates with fertility – presumably not perfectly or women would use that as a fertility predictor. In any case, I can’t get access and would be interested if someone can provide me with a description of their methods

     #10 like #2, they just estimated fertility based on women’s self-reporting of their last menstrual period and the length of their cycles. This is not a reliable way of determining fertility, as many children of users of the rhythm method can testify.

     #11 seems to be a summary of other research, rather than new research itself. I can’t access it, and would appreciate it if anyone with access can report about whether it was studying female ovulatory cycles.

     #12 is a wiki page, and obviously not scientific evidence of anything.

     Thanks for playing!

178. Yeah, while the process of ovulation is hardly delicate or lovely (involving the maturation and subsequent violent RUPTURE through the ovary wall of said egg, leaving a bloody crater behind…”the weaker sex” my ASS!) I too found “shitting” to be a rather harsh decriptive.

     I suppose it comes down to the nature of the PRODUCT of each process (ovulation vs defecation). I would be equally repulsed by the association of shitting and sperm production, FTR.

     And #1 is a dick,
     #2 is too young to be in a monogamous relationship (ovulating or not…I will admit to being extra horny around that time, but usually that means being more interested in ANY man/sex in general),
     and of COURSE the religious Right has no legs to stand on when attacking Gay divorce, but when has that stopped them before?

179. @156, “someone I could fuck without wanting to think of someone else doesn’t seem too much to ask” – In an ideal universe, that might not be too much to ask. But maybe you’re not wired that way. You may be wired to think about “someone else” (not the person you’re fucking). That may be hot for you, in some deep inescapable way. Just something you might want to consider.

180. @185: “…Note that the ones who had the LH surge two or three days after their “high fertility session” weren’t in fact fertile during their “high fertility session,” because they were still about five days from ovulation.”

     Sperm can live up to 5 days in the woman’s body (though 2-3 is more typical). Why the so-called “French” or “strict” method of fertility awareness birth control mandates NO unprotected sex prior to confirmed ovulation and death of the 24 hr living egg.

     It is perfectly possible to get pregnant from sex you had DAYS before ovulation. So those women WERE potentially fertile (and at least, if motivated by some evolutionary, reproductive imperative, likely driven to be on the prowl for “Mr. Right”) 😉

181. @Hunter

     Been there, done that.
     Women generally don’t love creepy old men commenting on their reproductive organs. Your friend probably picked up on that.

182. @188 I said it wasn’t a bad study. Yeah, maybe these women had a subconscious feeling they might be almost sort of fertile, and so they dressed nicely to impress guys.

     Or, maybe women wear their nicest outfits when they are not close to their period because have more confidence that they will not stain their clothes. Or maybe women feel less bloated close to ovulation, and so they dress nicely to impress other women.

     Nothing about the study proves that they were trying to attract guys in order to have more sex during their fertile period. And even if it did, that wouldn’t prove Dan’s point that women in LTRs go looking for extracurricular sex with someone more studly than their partner. Maybe they dressed nicely to have more sex with their LTR partner.

183. @125: You hit the nail on the head about the essentialization and overuse of small studies in evopsych.

     I’m a 23-year-old in a long term relationship with a now-20yo woman who had a similar experience to FANTASY’s at around age 18. I was freaked out at first, but we talked about it for awhile, and I remembered that I’d had a similar “slut period” at around that time, as had many people I knew. I told her if she really felt the need to hook up with someone else, or put our relationship on hold and try dating someone else for awhile, I was okay with it–after all, I’m her first boyfriend and the only guy she’s had sex with, so I don’t begrudge her the desire to try something else before she gets all settled. In the end, the desire mostly passed, and it stopped being an issue in our sex life when she stopped feeling guilty about it. When she started thinking about experimenting with girls, we tried a threesome with a friend of hers, and she decided it was fun but not her main interest. Whether we end up married or not, I think we weathered that one pretty well.

     So I’m totally supportive of the advice that breaking up is a serious option to consider, but like kerplank @109, I can say it’s not universally the way to go, and that anyone who thinks they can definitively tell an 18 year old what s/he wants sexually is bulshitting.

     And since everyone seems to be weighing in on “shitting eggs:” I’m on the side of vulgar, but not especially offensive. But then, I only shit sperm. And I agree with the earlier commenter who said it’s much more polite overall than “on the rag” is.

184. @163 Stiny & @180 nedibes: Thank you for sharing further insight on Stiny’s discussion about ovulation & menstruation. You are both right in that it does actually make sense about “popping out”–at least, regarding the ovaries. It really is more of a plopping for me, personally, however (I guess my zit-zappin’ days are over long over).

     And unfortunately for me, it’s still a mess no matter how you slice the Snickers bar, and consequently I’m reeeeeeeaaaaaaaally looking forward to finally entering menoshit.

185. God damn it. You had to throw in the Occupy Tea Party at the end there, didn’t you?

186. @176/192

     I’m the proud owner of a uterus and two ovaries, and I am a medical student. I have never personally witnessed ovulation, though I am told that highly sensitive ultrasound machines can detect it. My Obstetrics and Gynecology rotation did not afford me the opportunity to spend time with a reproductive endocrinologist, so all of the women I saw were either already pregnant or trying not to ovulate or past menoshits (LMAO on that one). I can’t comment personally on ovulation either, since I have a broken pituitary gland and my whole system fails to function.

     According to my textbooks (Andreoli&Carpenter’s CECIL Essentials of Medicine and Lippincott’s Obstetrics and Gynecology 6th edition): Ovulation occurs when the mature oocyte is ejected from the follicle through a rupture in the germinal epithelium of the ovary, along with a couple of milliliters of fluid and an entourage of supporting cells (the zona pellucida). The now-empty follicle is called the corpus hemorrhagicum because it bleeds a bit (this can cause localized irritation of the peritoneum, triggering the transient sharp “mittelschmertz” pain that 1/3 of women experience) before healing into the corpus luteum. The mental image of the fluid, zona cells and egg squirting out just seems so much like a popping zit to me.

187. #25 FTW! Get that tongue moving, Dan. *cracks up*

188. Ms Erica @187 – It’s occasionally intriguingly difficult to tell whether your posts are intended as inquiry or advocacy. Very thought-provoking.

189. @197 🙂

190. Mr Ank – Well, if you’re going to advocate so fiercely for the wider spreading of certain terms, the least you can do, surely, is to give them a trial run in front of Mrs Ank (Apologies if I have confused you with someone else and there is no Mrs Ank). I’d be most interested, for instance, in how she reacted to your redirection of the F word – but it would have to be without advance explanation.

     That was one of those thoughts that I began much more unseriously than I ended. It’s a habit.

191. @194 Stiny: I’m sorry I misunderstood your post from @163. You had mentioned only reading about it in textbooks; I unfairly assumed you were a male (simply meaning that men don’t menstruate, ovulate, and couldn’t get pregnant even if they wanted to because it won’t ever happen to them biologically without a sex change operation first).

     Thank you for your helpful information—mittelschmertz explains a lot.
     I’m partying hearty when I hit menoshit! I definitely have Messed Up Junk.

192. @200 Naw, auntie, don’t feel bad and don’t apologize. I really don’t know any more than most people, I just have fancier words for stuff.

     @180, I sure hope your fertility treatments were/will be successful. Undesired infertility is terribly painful and frustrating, perhaps just as much as undesired pregnancy. Good luck and Baby Dust to you. I’m pretty sure I’ll be there myself in a couple of years when I finish school.

193. Don’t ask a question if you’re just going to get pissed about the answer.

     My age has nothing to do with it. Her age does. So go ahead and surprise me by saying she’s not significantly younger than you. Go ahead now…

194. I’m a 32 yr old woman,and I think shitting eggs is really funny. seems the women are less offended then the men. that’s pretty sweet of you boys, but it is really fucking funny….

195. Here’s a dumb question: can anyone approaching menoshit
     have Messed Up Junk from 10 plus years of sexual inactivity?

     @202 mydryasis: I won’t get pissed about your answer.
     I”m a college-educated 47-year-old female U.S. military veteran who, once-upon a time, long ago, and not so far away, got stupidly married, then thankfully divorced, and there’s actually little that really surprises me very much anymore.
     Getting off birth control and dumping an asshole helped.

196. I thought ‘shitting eggs’ was funny, too. To me, it meant that she was going hormonally nuts while ovulating, that her system was spewing hormones along with egg(s), and that everything was in a state of batshit crazy, leading her to horn after what her system may have detected as an ‘alpha male’ sort, that through eons of ‘evolution’, from which we have never been able to fully free ourselves. I saw it as things going all haywire, just, all over the map. BAH!!!! “I’m horny as fuck, wanting to fuck any male I can reach because my hormones are going nuts, I’m fertile as hell, and I’m shitting eggs all over the damned place!” An over-exaggeration of the mayhem taking place.

197. @154 If she were the manipulative martyr you’ve imagined, it seems to me that the LW would have at least hinted at it, something like: “We have these endless conversations where she reminds me of how good I have it, and then I feel like shit again.”

     I personally think that it’s cruel to stay with a person who doesn’t do it for you and that it’s emotional immature to turn that lack of attraction into some self-involved melodrama of “Omg, am I an asshole for feeling this way?”

     No, you’re an asshole for focusing on what those feelings say about you rather than acting on them in a way that sets the other person free to find someone who genuinely wants them.

     If he feels “entitled” to “someone hotter” as some bedrock principle, I think he’s probably a dick. But I also think that we’d be better served if we made a distinction between the normal “I’m just not attracted to this person” and the much more shitty “I am attracted to this person but socially ashamed of it because they don’t measure up to some external standard.” The former is regrettable but blameless. The latter is the sign of a loathesome, insecure and conformist coward.

     Lastly, why the hell are we devoting the better part of this thread to a discussion of the comedic merits of two fairly harmless words?

198. Dan is exactly right about MRA. He still isn’t all that hot. MRA forgot to mention I used to be a stunning single mother of one. He was actually 24 when we met and I was 29. I was stunning till MRA got me pregnant , I had his kid and now I am fat. Even in my fatness, our hot babysitter still tried to make out with me, not MRA. I just did such a good job of convincing him he is hot, cause he was hot to me. Not now that I see him for what he really is, and what he is, is pathetic. He left me with 2 kids, he is actually gay, well, bi, and I wish to all holy hell I could just be rid of his nerdy ass. I’ll be hot again soon, and he will still be an asshole. THAT, is the short story. I was always out of his league and still am.

199. 143– Let’s give credit where credit is due. Vulture is the one who wrote that great essay in 125. I’d like to hear more from her. I just said I liked it and wished I could express those ideas as well as she does.

200. WHAT YOU GUYS DON’T KNOW ABOUT THIS DOUCHETARD MR MRA, is that he just had a baby with this woman. Who which by the way is actually very pretty, and very sweet. She has also stood by his side through all of his BS and philandering. Another thing you don’t know is how he controls her and doesn’t want to let her go. I’m not even sure why he’s writing you Dan to be honest. He’s the guy that wants to have his cake and eat it too. I say he needs to get HIS ish together. She was perfectly good enough and pretty enough to give him his first born son, not to mention he was going to adopt her daughter, but now she’s not good enough to stay with? He sounds like a low rent asshole who will never be happy with anything that comes his way. I really wish I could post a a pic of MRA. Id be really interested to see everyones feedback his looks. : ) Just trust me when I say this. He will never do better than the relationship he just threw away like yesterdays garbage. Good luck pal with all your back alley findings. Gross.

     I hate guys like him. They don’t deserve to be with anyone. Especially not someone as great as his “ex.” – Piss off from SL with love

201. @Auntie/Hunter

     It was directed at Hunter.
     Hunter your question wasn’t IN the quote although I believe when you originally posted the story your question was something along the lines of “that girl was wrong to get offended, amirite?”

     Though you didn’t repost the question it’s not a hugely unreasonable assumption that you were reposting it in hopes of the same validation that what you said wasn’t indeed creepy or offensive.

     So congrats! You technically got me. You didn’t ask a question.

     And Auntie: you’ve had 10-plus years of sexual inactivity?

202. @212 mydriasis: Yep. It’s a weird situation: while I’m happy to be on my own and in a safe, loving environment, I have little to no sex drive anymore.
     That and there’s really nobody that I feel close enough to have sex with, a decade after my divorce. No bitterness, just lack of sexual interest.

     Lately I have been experiencing painful pelvic exams, and have been using a vaginal lubricant to alleviate dryness, prescribed by my gynecologist. Unfortunately, it’s just plain, simple biology: despite my taking vitamins, maintaining a good, safe hormone balance, staying active, and living an otherwise peaceful, healthy lifestyle, the road to menoshit, for me, really sucks.

203. @211, Actually I am pretty sure this did come from my ex because it came from this computer. I am not the type to trap anyone, and being the single mother of two was not exactly a dream come true. Raising my first child completely on my own and I never asked for anything from anybody. If MRA, hadn’t convinced me that he was at least respectable enough to support his end of the deal, I would have explored other options. He has narcissistic personality disorder, and it is evident in every aspect of his letter. from stating that I hadn’t had other relationships (trust issues), implying I must be so horrible I deserved it, to making me cry- implying that he has a lot of power, and also that crying somehow shows that I deserved it. No one has any idea the embarrassing, horrible things he has done to me ,or that I tried my hardest to treat him with respect and compassion. He basically thought that writing this would give him the validation he feels he needs ( I don’t think if you want to leave someone that you even need a reason, just do it.) to ditch out on his responsibilities and go fuck around. I figured as much would happen, and didn’t want that kind of lifestyle but was still willing to be friends. I am just tired of getting shit on by this guy, you know? Especially when Dan’s guess was exactly correct. No, he wasn’t ugly and at one point I considered him to be the most handsome man alive. But that’s when I was wearing love goggles. I was really pretty though, and I think it’s OK to stick up for myself, and I would love to not have to deal with his shit anymore. He just left out anything that would make him seem less… in the right, I guess? But like I said, When you want to go, just go. You don’t need a reason.

204. @214: This guy says he “is” 24 and she “is” 28. He also says he has known her for a year so far. That would have made him 23 and her 27 at the time they met. (It also means you two would have had to have gotten pregnant within the first month or two.)

     Your story is that he was actually 24 and you were 29 at the time you met. This also implies that he is now 25 and you are at least 30 today. Sorry, but your respective timelines just don’t line up well enough. Maybe he’s lying about those details, or maybe it’s just a remarkable similarity. (Big world out there.) The evidence so far doesn’t lead me to conclude that Letter Writer is your guy.

     Your guy sounds like a complete asshole, and I’m sorry to hear your situation. I think it is sufficient for you to tell your own story on its own merits without insisting on conflating it with this Letter Writer (who, by the way, has already fairly well gotten his ass handed to him twice now, once in SLLOTD, and once in the weekly column).

205. The odds of either MRA or Dan leaving out the fact that they have a son together seems really far-fetched to me. But, hey, Team-o’-People writing at 208/210/214, tell us more about this: “he controls her and doesn’t want to let her go.” How is he controlling? Are they still living together? Is this a case of domestic abuse? Or is it the child they have in common that binds them together?

206. Just thought I’d mention that “shitting eggs” is used in Australian slang in no way associated with ovulation. It means to be freaked out/panicking/stressed such as in “When I saw that black-snake heading for the kids, I started shitting eggs.”

     It’s pretty acceptable outside of formal situations.

207. I am a firm believer in this: If you don’t want a girl to act like a crazy bitch, don’t treat her like one. It’s remarkable how well people handle the truth when you grant them the due respect that accompanies honesty. People say “The truth hurts”. I personally believe lies hurt a lot more. The truth hurts when you have been lying to yourself, and when someone has been lying to you. I think that accepting truth can be hard enough without the added humiliation of also being deemed worthless enough to be deceived. When you lie to someone, you are assuming that they are not smart enough to figure out the truth. So when you find out you have been lied to it is often a double whammy. Who cares if MRA is People Magazine’s Sexiest Man Alive? He’s still an emotionally retarded asshole. Beauty really is in they eye of the beholder. Ever met someone you thought was gorgeous and then after getting to know them, you find them almost repulsive? I think MRA owes that girl that girl a real explanation, explaining just how superficial he is. She’ll feel respected and most likely take the whole thing a lot better.

208. @201: Thanks for the well-wishes! My treatment was successful–ART is truly amazing nowadays, although it’s scary how very little is still known about the mysteries of hormones. Baby dust in a bottle to you, for when you’re ready for it :).

209. i think the guy in number one was probably ‘not attractive’ in some way, then overcame it (worked out, got his teeth fixed, etc). enough already with the eggs comments!

210. @221: Oh, come on! We’re not laughing at MRA (although he is a bit of a turd sack). Lighten up!!! We’re laughing (at least I am) at Dan’s comment about “shitting eggs” because it’s part of being female!!

     Don’t you have a shared “guys’ anatomy” term that cracks you up?
     Enough said.

211. I really only would have accepted “laying eggs”……as that is a common reference to females in most species, most notably hens. If all your gayness will allow for is to equilibrate female humans to hens, I can allow that, Dan. But shitting eggs is unacceptably offensive. You should publish a retraction.

212. eww. shitting eggs? Dan. Promise me you’ll never repeat that expression. K? Promise?

213. @Hunter

     Saying the most offensive thing you can think of is a classic troll move, I’ll give you that. But it’s a bit pedestrian, don’t you think?

     I’m going to assume that’s a non-sequitor, since I can’t imagine how anything I said relates to that but I’ll bite anyway!

     I’m Canadian, and proud to say we don’t have republicans here. The closest (most right-wing) is the PC party and I don’t vote for them. They are more akin to your Democrats. And if you’re that interested to know how I vote. I generally vote for these guys: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_Democra…

214. After wading through the comments, I’m left with three thoughts.

     “Shitting eggs” made me laugh. So does South Park. Hostile and rude can be funny, if you don’t have to share an elevator with it.

     EvoPsychBabble 101 notwithstanding, a bad boy for casual fucking and someone a bit more stable long-term makes sense whether I’m ovulating or not. Doesn’t it? And none of this has anything to do with my monthly arousal cycle, which peaks when I’m NOT “shitting eggs.” So, yeah. I think she just wants to have sex with more than one person. Shock.

     Finally, I don’t get the “she’s ovulating” joke. How the hell can I decide whether to be offended when I just don’t get it?

215. @221 & @225: Would you rather hear “shitting sperm” instead?

216. Ross Douthat, the NYTime’s conservative columnist, coined a great term today: “Santorum surge”. He meant it earnestly but I would love to see it adopted more widely.

     @109: I agree with you. My husband and I met when I was 18 and he was 20, and we’ve been together for a long time now. I know the probability of such a relationship persisting are lower, but I reject the notion that the probability is so vanishingly low that breaking up is the first suggestion when problems arise. I likewise reject the idea that you can only learn what you want and who you are by dating many people. It is a common theme here. I’m not especially bothered by it but people should recognize that some relationships do survive and might be worth working on.

217. I think vomiting sperm works better than shitting sperm.

218. @ΕricaP, re: ovulation cycle and changes in mating patterns,

     you have done an impressive job of criticizing the assumptions and design of most of the studies that were cited here. I’m curious about one thing, then: what kind of design would you favor for a study to actually access this question?

     Suppose, for instance, that I did a study without paying (at first) any attention whatsoever to the menstrual cycle of the participants. Let’s say I found a way of measuring their level of attractiveness to certain kinds of male physiques and faces (perhaps by showing them a series of carefully chosen photographs of male models and then noting down which ones were selected by each participant as being ‘sexier’ or ‘more attractive’), say, twice a weak over a period of several months.

     Now, this might allow the researcher to determine whether or not there is any patterned variation in the choices of the sample of participants. If one plots participants against photos (or against photo features), any cyclical, repetitive pattern in the participants’ preferences should become apparent. Now, should any cyclical patterns appear, one could then try to match them with the actual (or average) cycles of the participants (who would have reported their menstruation dates during the data-gathering).

     Would you agree that this experimental design would produce results relevant to answering the question, or do you still see any problems?

219. Best column of Dan’s in a long time. I LOVE your wordplay, and agree with your advice to each person. Keep up the great work!

220. @232: I’d take at least 1000 women, and pay them to chart their fertility for a couple of years, with the symptothermal (combination) method. (All young women who are not on birth control hormones should be taught to do that anyway – it’s cheap, easy, safe, and useful.)

     Over the course of that time, I’d have them come in weekly to complete a wide range of tests, enough so that they wouldn’t bother to try to systematically affect the results.

     I would publish my results with a lot of caveats about these being average results, not absolute rules. After all, the average woman is attracted to men, but some fraction are attracted to women. So, no matter the research, you shouldn’t tell a real individual – “During your fertile period, you want to get pregnant by a studly dude, you slut.” Which, in my reading, is essentially what Dan was telling FANTASY.

221. more @232 — your design is fine, except that there’s no reason not to gather more complete information about their ovulation cycles, not just their menstruation dates.

222. @231 RWGirl: Vomiting sperm!! Yeah!! Or how about puking sperm?
     It truly is a projectile thing, isn’t it?

223. So when guys cum, they are pissing sperm? EEW stop pissing in my egg shit! Or can we all grow up and admit that eggs and sperm are not eliminations of waste and give them the respect they deserve. After all its not even the egg that causes the reaction, its the hormones stupid!

224. @238 jojo: I said puking, not pissing sperm! Geez—what are you, a totally humorless, religiously PC, Republican bible-thumping pro-lifer? It-is-a JOKE! J-O-K-E!! Do you laugh at The Simpsons or South Park episodes? I have long since studied biology and I know what goes where and why. If Dan or anyone else can poke a little fun, I and others can, too, regardless of what anyone’s hormones are doing, ya doofus! I’m surprised you even bother to read Savage Love if you’re that uptight.

     Repeat after me: HA HA HA. Take a deep breath. Exhale. Repeat this exercise until your panties or briefs are no longer in a wad.

225. If FANTASY has a long-term boyfriend, chances are she’s on some form of birth control. Given her age, I’d say a hormonal form of birth control. That means she doesn’t ovulate. That means Dan’s answer is N/A.

226. Hunter, you probably study your own ejaculate. And yes, you did ask a question: “How dare I?”

     I’ll get that one for you: you’re a self-congratulatory, defensive prick who can’t decide if he’s Frasier Crane or Sam Malone, still patting your own back months later for getting yuks out of your “working-class” bar “friends.” I bet they can’t wait til you go home.

     That poor bartender, too. Tips ≠ respect.

227. @240 – most likely you are correct.

     And for a lot of women, it’s easy to tell when you ovulate – feels like someone is sticking you in the ovary with a pin for about 24 hours, sharp pulsing pain. Not terrible, but unmistakable. I get horny a bit before that, a few days usually – I wonder why the sudden spike, and then, ah, well, that’s why. If I’m in a relationship or merely around men of interest, I won’t be able to discern the spike as easily, but if I am separated from other humans for long periods of time (months, at least), it’s a pretty significant and obvious leap in sex drive. It gets cloudy when you have other stimuli in the picture, but if it’s just you and your hormones, pretty simple. Women really do have a hormonal cycle, and it does make a difference in our sex drive, not all that shocking considering it involves things like estrogen, progesterone and testosterone.

228. EricaP – can’t you just do salivary hormonal tests to pinpoint ovulation? A lot less debatable than tracking cycles, and easier. Then you have people take an online quiz with facial images or whatever you are testing. You can have them come in to have it done, or have them do it online, which would encourage compliance by lowering the amount of work required. College students appreciate easy money, which this would be. They’d probably even do it for a cookie if you wanted to make them come in. You wouldn’t need to use the same people over and over again, just have them come in for a baseline in order to qualify and anytime they feel like dropping by they can do the test for a snack. You get enough of this done, you’ve got a decent data set. You could run it cheaply for years.

229. @243 I don’t know much about salivary hormone tests – can women do them at home so that they get a daily record of their fertility?

     What’s debatable about tracking cycles through taking one’s temperature and examining one’s cervical fluids / cervix position? Not hard, once you’ve done it for a month.

230. It’s not pissing sperm, it’s puking sperm. Don’t you know anything?

231. @EricaP, what you said is basically the reason why I don’t worry too much about studies showing that ‘the general tendency’ in the behavior of women (or men, or children, or…) is X, Y or Z — general trends are only that, general trends, and even if there is some biological basis underlying them, it is still always the case that we in real life deal with individuals, who will deviate from expected behavior in a variety of fascinating ways (in fact, come to think of it, we tend to love in the people we love precisely that which makes them individuals, i.e., that which marks them as different from others, from the average, from expected behavior).

     Which is why I don’t worry so much about Dan probably suggesting “you wanted a studly guy because you were ovulating.” Even if this is true — i.e., even if it is true that there is such a tendency, and that there is an underlying biological reason why there should be such a tendency, and that this tendency played some role in FANTASY’s feelings –, this doesn’t mean that FANTASY as a person, even as a sexual being, is defined by it. Other factors — psychological and cultural — are probably much more important.

     (And I point out Dan did offer the other hypothesis, which — I’d say — he clearly considers more likely. The whole “ovulation leads to wanting studly guys” thing in his answer look like a bit of an afterthought.)

232. @246 RWgirl: You GO, girl!

233. Oh, okay. I thought there might be some mythical way to tell if a woman’s ovulating – you know, like a locker room fairy tale kind of thing – and the waitress was exhibiting signs of some sort. I’m always interested in cultural/gender tropes like that.

     But if it was just a random sexual remark in a bar, meh. Whatever. I’d have to abstain from “small dick” jokes for the rest of my life in order to get legitimately outraged.

234. @247 – I thought he should have stuck to explanation #1 (“Part of dating, at your age, is discovering…what you want”) and told her to find housing that would facilitate the kind of exploration she should be doing. Giving the fertility thing equal weight (explanation #1 / explanation #2) undermined the impact of his good advice in explanation #1.

     He could have said: “It is possible that your body is attracted to different men at different times of your cycle; apparently that sometimes happens with women.” I would have no beef with a low-key statement like that, especially if he followed it up by reiterating the strong advice to give herself the time and freedom to figure out what/who really turns her on.

     But this is stupid: “Lots of women in long-term, stable relationships with nice guys enjoy manly-man-eye-candy when they’re ovulating and then fuck their nice guy’s brains out.”

     Men don’t ovulate, but they like eye-candy. Clearly, lots of women like manly eye-candy. I like eye-candy (of both the manly and babelicious varieties), and I’m on hormones so I’m never fertile. Why focus on the fertility part, since that is based on uncertain science?

235. I think there is a third option for FANTASY. As people, we’re sexual beings. We like sex; we like fantasy; and we like other people’s naughty parts. Being in a committed relationship doesn’t turn that side of us off. With an attractive new person around, it’s actually pretty normal to want to sex them up. Lots of people in relationships have wandering thoughts occasionally, and that doesn’t mean that they love their partner any less. Most of the time, an initial, lusty attraction to a person passes or calms down with time. Sometimes, it doesn’t. If it doesn’t pass after a month or so, then she can start feeling guilty and assess her current relationship. Until then, I think she should fuck her boyfriend’s brains out, because he’s the one who’s been there for her and wants to continue to be there for her – emotionally, sexually, materialistically, in every way. And she shouldn’t worry or feel bad about her body’s natural reaction to a sexy roommate.

236. the whole shitting eggs is just one part of dan’s general all-around grouchiness this time. which i am into. i would suggest he were on his period if that weren’t also incredibly sexist, but there the whole he’s-a-man issue at well.

     jill
     http://inbedwithmarriedwomen.blogspot.co…

237. MRA’s letter and the reactions to it hit too close to home for me not to register and comment.

     He may just be an asshole, but the strange mix of merciless self-accusations and overt dickishness makes me picture a mentally rather unstable person.

     In my late twenties (I am now in my early thirties), I sought professional help because my extreme mood-swings had started to affect my career, my friendships, my life… I was diagnosed with subclinical (i.e. not batshit crazy, but still noticeably unstable) bipolar disorder; and luckily two years of therapy (without any medication) worked out perfectly: I am now in a much better place.

     During therapy, I also discovered that I probably had violated the campsite rule with almost every single woman I got involved with between the age of 20 and 30. 5-10 years ago, I could have been MRA.

     The funny thing is: there is no winner in these situations, especially when romantically significant things happen in the course of that weird roller-coaster ride between hypomania and depression. You are being an utter asshole to others while suffering miserably yourself.

     So – hoping that either MRA or Dan read this – I would like to ask MRA to have a hard look at himself and consider therapy. “You have issues” may sound like a affront, but the good thing about “having issues” vs. “being a natural certified asshole” is that issues are something you can work on.

238. @255 – the campsite rule is for when you’re dealing with people much less experienced than yourself. I mean, it’s always good to be a decent human being, but when you’re in your 20s, no one expects you to have all the answers about how to be in relationships without hurting other people.

239. I am female and found the “shitting eggs” thing hilarious, despite the fact that I consider myself a feminist. Clearly the author isn’t sexist based on his responses to these letters, so obviously the term was used in a humorous way, which I can appreciate. I don’t think it has anything to do with ignorance of the female cycle, just a joke, people. Similarly, even though I have children- who I gave birth to- I found Bill Maher’s use of the term “womb droppings” equally funny. Sometimes over-the-top humor is the best because it hits you unexpectedly. So, keep it coming Mr. Savage!

240. Astonishing that others are calling Dan up on his use of words which were indeed, in poor taste, but not one person seems to know much about anatomy. ONE egg is released per month. ONE. So, all of you who point out Dan’s ignorance of female anatomy, look in the mirror.

241. I’m a woman and I found “shitting eggs” to be offensive. It felt like an aggressive hateful term, rather than funny. I also think it’s unfair to assume that if a person hasn’t lost their virginity by the time they are 23, they must not be hot. Having said all that, this is the first time in all the years I’ve read Dan’s column that I found something to be truly offended by.

242. @258: I know that. But I still think Dan’s “shitting eggs” comment was funny.
     Okay, I’m done.

243. Dude, I’m not able to cognate “pillar of support that I truly need” and “not that important to me” in the same paragraph. You are one mixed up dude, and you should not be dating ANYBODY until you get your head straight. Break up with the poor girl, stand on your feet like a man and figure out who you are and what you want out of life.

     Your need to have a conventionally hot girl to show off like a Maserati is a symptom of your insecurity, which is your problem, just like reveling in treating someone you allowed yourself to need crappy is a symptom of your problem. At least you have a glimmer you have some issues, but you’re still framing it in terms of her. It’s YOU who’s got the problems, dude. And let me break it to you gently, but even if you were squiring around Brooklyn Decker, you’d still feel insecure. You gotta address THAT, not the girl stuff.

244. ‘Shitting eggs’ is hate speech 🙁

245. @262: Are you a “Let ’em Die” Republican?

     Hatred is what drove the Nazis to willfully kill 8 million innocent people in cold blood in the 1930s and early 1940s.

     Dan Savage used the term “shitting eggs” sarcastically. It actually made ME laugh, because I understood the joke.

     I don’t see any connection between the two above statements.

246. It’s so funny to me that the majority of the issues people have with the column are in regards to “shitting eggs”. I’ve been reading Dan since I was a teen and he ALWAYS says shocking things. It makes people pay attention.

247. @264 KateRose: Yeah, I know! Anybody upset by Dan’s column or comments can do the following, as Dan has repeatedly said, and I quote:

     “Don’t like my advice? Don’t ask for it.
     Don’t like my column? Don’t read it.
     Got better advice? Get your own fucking advice column.”

     There—I feel better!

248. My problem with the s***ing eggs thing is that it’s biologically inaccurate…

249. I am a female who has shat many any egg, and I found the line hilarious.

250. I’m a hairy-legged, lesbian feminist, and I thought “shitting eggs” was hilarious. Using it!

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