I’m a 67-year-old woman,
almost 68, who has been married four times—once widowed (with
three kids in their 40s who’ve turned out pretty well), divorced three
times. I recently met someone online: 48, a wealthy, educated man with
two boys, 12 and 14. He lives the cuckoldt lifestyle and is looking for
a woman to marry who would participate and enjoy this with him. He says
he “craves and needs” this lifestyle, and from what he’s said so far,
the boys have been trained from an early age to also live this
lifestyle and would require that the woman he marries include them in
all ways.
I’ve done some research and think I could be
quite happy being a dominant. However, my concern is that he wants me
to be sexual with the boys. He says that at home they practice familial
nudity. He also wants me to take each one to a hotel on their
respective birthdays (he doesn’t say at what age) and take their
virginities. He has also suggested that, once we are living together,
if I wake up horny I should go to one of the boys’ rooms and “grind my
cunt into his face and fuck the boy.” I think this is excessive and
could traumatize the boys. I don’t know if this type of extreme
behavior is just fantasy for him or if he is serious.
If I like this man after meeting him, I
would consider this lifestyle, but with boundaries where the boys are
concerned. As the dominant, what I say goes, no questions asked (he has
agreed to this in a recent IM), but I think we need to find a
balance.
I’m interested in your thoughts on all of
this. Thank you.
New To Cuckholdting
What do I think? I’m thinking—and
hoping and praying—that this letter is complete bullshit. And I
think I’m gonna go boil my laptop after writing this response. And I
think I’m tempted to forward your e-mail on to the police. And I think
I would do just that if I wasn’t convinced that this man with whom
you’ve been corresponding—assuming you exist,
NTC—is just another creepy pervert furiously beating off in front
of a computer as he spins out his insanely creepy sexual fantasies for
a gullible online audience of one.
But two details lead me to believe that
there could actually be a four-times-married, thrice-divorced,
once-widowed moral bankrupt out there receiving e-mails and IMs from a
man who claims to be into “the cuckoldt lifestyle,” “familial nudity,”
and the sexual abuse of his adolescent children: your age and your
inability to spell “cuckold.” If a creep with child-rape fantasies
wrote this letter, NTC, you wouldn’t be 67 going on 68 with
reservations. You would be 37 at the most with DD breasts, and you
would’ve spelled cuckold correctly. (Unless… sigh… the
creep was into intergenerational sex and lousy spellers on top
of everything else.)
Now: If this man and his children exist,
NTC, he’s abusing his children and they should be removed from his home
immediately. He’s scum, NTC, as is any woman who would for a moment
contemplate shacking up with this piece of shit. Because, again, what
your Interwebs friend describes is not the “cuckoldt lifestyle,” it’s
the rape and systematic sexual abuse of children. A man who is into
cuckolding gets off on his wife having consensual sex with
other adult men, not his children; a woman into cuckolding
gets off on “cheating” on her husband with other adult men, not her
minor stepchildren.
Once again for the record: I don’t think
this guy is for real or that these kids exist. I think some creepy
pervert is sitting in front of a computer furiously rubbing ’em out as
he chats with you. Interacting with someone on the web who believes
that he’s telling the truth—someone who believes that he’s
wealthy, educated, and has two boys at home anxious to be sexually
abused by a woman old enough to be their grandmother—turns him
on. And so he lurks online until he lands someone gullible and morally
bereft enough to buy in.
Okay! Let’s end with a note about standards
and practices here at Savage Love: I typically change identifying
details in a letter—exact ages, number of divorces, number of
children—lest someone inadvertently out themselves to their
family and friends. I didn’t do that in NTC’s case, because I’m praying
to God that—if NTC exists—one of her children sees
this letter and recognizes dear ol’ Mom. And if her kids are reading:
Hey, guys, it’s time to take Mom’s cars keys, credit cards, and
computer away. Dementia has set in, or Mom’s been demented all along.
Either way, she’s a danger to herself and others, and you might want to
stage an intervention before the criminal-
justice system does.
I am in desperate need. I have been
dating a guy for two years. We’re both 25, and we love each other a
lot. He’s sexy as hell (half Asian, quarter Native, quarter
black—he’s divine), we connect, he’s funny, upbeat, and honest.
Unfortunately, we have a recurring fight (once or twice a month), and I
wonder if we will ever resolve this issue. He likes the attention of
other women. The fight goes like this: He will do something borderline
inappropriate with some chick right in front of me (most recently, he
had 30 consecutive drunk-posts on Facebook with some 19-year-old he met
through his roommate), and I will get pissed and hurt. I approach him
calmly and say that it feels disrespectful and I hope that one day we
will come to an agreement on this issue. He swears that it is all in my
head and that I work myself up over nothing. But he KNOWS it hurts my
feelings, and my hurt is made worse because he is disregarding my
feelings. He usually gets mad, says he “didn’t do anything wrong” and
he “can’t talk to me anymore,” and then I won’t hear from him for a day
or so.
I have friends telling me that this is a
deal breaker and that I am being emotionally abused. I don’t know if I
believe that—I think he just needs to work on boundaries. I just
had a “come to Jesus” talk with the boy, and he still feels like he
didn’t cross any lines and refuses to apologize. But to make me feel
guilty, he said he will “never post anything on another girl’s Facebook
page ever again.” That’s not what I wanted. Now my face hurts from
crying, and I want someone sane to tell me which way is up. Whose side
are you on? I would actually be happier if you told me that I was crazy
and controlling, because altering my own attitude is a lot easier than
trying to get through to him.
Pleeeeeease help.
Hurting In Oregon
Ah… a nice, normal problem to cleanse the
palate after the shit sandwich that opens the column this week.
I’m not on anyone’s side in this dispute,
HIO. You sound like an insecure, passive-aggressive guilt tripper, and
the boyfriend sounds like an inconsiderate flirt. You’ve been having
the same fight twice a month for two years. Enough already. If
the sex, the connection, and his race-based divinity don’t compensate
for the flirting, end this relationship. If they do, HIO, stay with
him—but only if you can stop policing his interactions with other
women and stop bitching about the flirting to him, to your friends, and
to me. 
@47, I didn’t forget, I was just trying not to reintroduce the image to my brain. Too late now…
J5676: You need to check yourself ! Something is way off about you.
You wrote “… to consensually introduce sex to kids…” and many other disturbing things. Get counseling or take an “Am I a Danger to Children” survey in Cosmo or something.
The response to the first letter was the funniest thing I have read in a long time. Tears down my face! Want to see more than two letters, though!!
I’m thinking HIO’s ass is the one going to get dumped.
i suspect the first letter is not from a looney jacker, but from nutjob who thought they’d catch the immoral homo with their brilliant letter, which they could then use to say, “see, they are all baby rapers!”
i’ll say, pedo-priest or -minister, as my first guess!
oh, but i say still forward the letter to the police. someone needs a talking to from the authoritays.
this is some conversation.
if i negotiate for anyone to fuck you without your consent, a sexual assault has taken place. age is a non-factor. our relationship to one another is a non-factor.
if a parent negotiates for their child to be fucked, even if the child is an adult, and even with the child’s consent, that is nuts and an abusive relationship.
factor in being a minor, factor in being a parent, and well, not really much to say.
Dan, the first thing that occurred to me when I read the “cuckoldt lifestyle” letter is that you were being set up, “ACORN” style, but some right wing anti-sex bigot. If they didn’t know you (and one assumes such people don’t), they might have assumed that you would write a sympathetic letter which they could then use to expose you as a supporter of child abuse. This would strengthen their argument that gays and healthy sexuality in general are threats to children. The use of the term “lifestyle” makes me suspicious. That is how homophobes talk about gays; “in the gay lifestyle” because they think it demeans it as just a frivolous choice. As anyone who reads you regularly could have told them, you are very big on consent and protection of children, so it also strikes me, that the writer did not read your column regularly. We will probably never know who this writer really is, but I am deeply suspicious.
The first letter is a big fat ewwwwww even if the guy is only talking about the sick stuff in his head. Maybe we actually DO want him to talk about it so the letter can be forwarded to the authorities and “stepmom” and “dad” can both get a talking to.
And maybe “stepmom” is only the second lady’s drunk boyfriend spinning some other reasons to DTMFA.
Even sicker, this is all fine palate cleanser since I just read an item in another paper about parents abusing their 4-year-old daughter.
By comparison with them, “stepmom” is a real pillar of responsible parenting.
Ewwwww
NTC: Please, for the sake of everything that is good and holy, DIAF. You’ve taken my passion for having sex with other mens’ wives while they watch and masturbate and turned it into something impure and disturbing.
HIO: If his behaviour is so disturbing (and it sounds like a severe stumbling block), then DTMFA. But be careful, as you may be (accidentally) fulfilling one of Dan’s credos: (paraphrased) When you dump the partner with a mild kink or pecadillo, beware meeting a partner with a more dangerous one. IOW, you may be trading an incorrigible flirt (whose behaviour, as written, comes across as mild if not necessarily harmless) for a man who’d *never, ever, ever* consider flirting with another woman in any sort of medium to which you have access. Instead, he’ll just limit his “flirting” to low-cost Asian “massage therapists”, the cleaner-looking prostitutes on the other side of the city, a student who looks up to him, any willing party with a penis and a pulse, or every single combination of the above flaws . But at least the “respectful” new guy won’t dare do anything as crass as *parade* his extramarital relationships around his SO.
Seriously speaking, big talkers tend to be little doers. If I were in your shoes, I’d err on the side of caution and break up. I just hope that you don’t pick a rebound guy who’s the Bizarro version of your current BF. They have a tendency to live up to the “Bizarro” tag.
Whatever happened to taking responsibility for your own emotions? It’s a sign of maturity, and OIH sounds like she’s got none of it. Her argument boils down to “since HE made me feel this way, it’s up to HIM to change.” I don’t think her bf is any saint, it sounds like he knows exactly how to push her anger buttons and does so repeatedly. BUT they are HER buttons, which means it’s HER problem and it’s up to her to do something about it, not him.
Either way, they both have a lot of growing up to do.
@J5676 – You sound like an absolute nutjob. Isn’t fucking your stepchildren, even if it’s consensual and they’re “of age”, illegal? I would certainly call it incest. And having sexual fantasies about your wife fucking your children – I would also consider that highly incestuous. That is not a “healthy” introduction to sex, it’s just wrong, wrong, wrong. There aren’t enough words in the dictionary to describe how wrong it is. And they practice “familial nudity”? I know that some people are nudists and consider it harmless, but there is obviously a sexual context here.
Dan, could you PLEASE forward this email to the police? You can’t be 100% certain that the letter is fake, and everyone has a moral obligation to report any suspicions of child abuse. And even if the letter IS fake, a police investigation would make this pervert think twice before posting any more of his perverted fantasies on the Internet.
OIH’s boyfriend clearly doesn’t even have any interest in her; if he did, he’d be finding ways to interact w/her & go places/do things w/her rather than waste hours every day flirting online.
I know this is OT, but if anyone here lives in Virginia, please please PLEASE register & vote for Steve Shannon & Creigh Deeds. Ken Cuccinelli hates gay people (“it’s not normal”) and bitterly criticized the safe sex/date rape info forum @GMU as being “disgusting” and “promoting sexual promiscuity”; Bob McDonnell thinks gays “should be punished” and working women are “detrimental to the family”
No wonder Mary Cheney thinks this is a cool place to live! Lunatix!
Washington’s laws regarding sex with a minor are pretty specific – consent doesn’t mean much.
As someone who works for CPS, I can say this: a letter without identfiying information (specifically names and location) of the children isn’t going to screen in. However, that doesn’t mean it shouldn’t be forwarded to law enforcement.
Working with this stuff, if that letter is real, it’s clearly sexual abuse – and chronic. Call it what you will “training” is the same as “grooming” and that’s exactly what child sexual abusers do.
I’m curious if the gal in letter #2 is holding on to this “relationship” because of the guy’s looks. Maybe she thinks she’s never going to bang anyone as hot as this guy. My own opinion is that she can always touch herself to memories of the hot sex with no muss or fuss with the jerk! (and she needs a therapist to work on why she’d stay with someone who she’s not happy with!)
# 1- fake
# 2- dtmfa
I am not sure what the laws are like where Dan lives. I do know that in Ontario, Canada (where I live) if there is a possibility that a child may be abused, even if not confirmed, a person who suspects has a legal obligation to to report to Child Welfare (CW).
It is up to CW & the police to investigate to determine whether or not abuse is happening.
Like many, I hope the letter was not real. And I don’t know.
#1- send the email to the police. it probably is fake.cover thy butt.
# 2- hio- get your whip out of the closet and beat him to orgasmic pleasure, or dtmfa- shit or get off the pot.
I wouldn’t say that the second lady is being passive aggressive or manipulative. I think Dan should have just ended with a good ‘ol DTMFA.
For the first one, I would forward the email to the police just to be on the safe side. I would much rather they figure assure that it was all just a disturbing joke as opposed to letting this all slide and have it turn out otherwise…
Who on earth says that they are “almost 68”?
Seven almost eight, seventeen almost eighteen…. maybe twenty-seven, almost twenty eight. But after that you stop saying how old you “almost” are.
That letter is just so wrong in like, seven, almost eight ways.
I was also in a relationship like HIO’s. Granted, we don’t know the whole truth . . . but it does sound like emotional abuse. Especially troubling to me is the part where the guy completely overreacts to what is a decently reasonable concern on the part of the women. His role in the relationship is to help his partner understand what’s going on when she’s concerned about something; going crazy and getting upset at least twice a month is not a good sign. I’d totally dump him and find a guy that’s more worth my time — they definitely exist!
Like commenter #124, I was ALSO in a relationship like this once. It is TEXTBOOK crazy-making behaviour. Guys like this use will even use Dan’s response as a weapon, pointing at his answer and saying, “See? It’s you who are the problem. Dan even says you’re an insecure, passive-aggressive guilt tripper.”
Dan’s wrong, HIO. It is insulting to flirt with others in front of your partner. The purpose of that kind of behaviour is to subtly show you that you’re WORTHLESS to him… to set the stage for other, more serious kinds of abuse later. I promise you that if you stay with this creep, you’ll look back in five years and weep for all that lost time that you could have spent with a real man.
RUN FOR THE NEAREST EXIT.
And she still stays with him, clinging to some hope that if they argue about it one more time, he’ll change.
OK, that’s not passive-aggressive, that’s just pathetic.
He flirts – that’s all. Who does he love? Who is he with? Who does he fuck? YOU (if any of the answers aren’t “you” – dump him).
You are basically just trying to control him. I’ve been described as a “natural flirt” – I don’t set out to do it – it just comes naturally. There’s nothing wrong with it – I love who I’m with (7 years now) and wouldn’t do anything outside of flirting. It’s flattering to flirt with someone you think is attractive and have them flirt back. It doesn’t mean I love my partner any less.
Can you honestly say that when you’re out and about and you see an attractive man that you don’t smile or giggle? Same thing, honey. Don’t fool yourself into thinking otherwise.
Quit controlling him and start flirting with men you find attractive. You’ll soon learn that it’s fun, you still love the man your with, and it makes you feel great when you feel a little insecure sometimes and a handsome man finds you attractive enough to flirt back with.
holy SHIT, BATMAN!!!! Fucking arrest the child abusing sickos already!!!!
It’s ironic that HIO is called “insecure” because it is the person who has to constantly reaffirm his/her sexual prowess by flirting who is REALLY insecure.
If your boyfriend flirts – especially when he knows it embarrasses or humiliates you – then he is telling you that he wants out of the relationship but he just doesn’t have the balls to break it off. THAT’S passive-aggressive.
The advice given to HIO is totally ass-backwards. Crack a psych. text if plain common sense doesn’t work for you.
“Why Blame the Victim,” I think you nailed it. There’s plenty of insecurity on both sides of that relationship, and they’re bringing out the worst in each other. The best way to end the toxic behavior is to break up and figure out what the heck made this relationship seem so attractive in the first place. That goes for both of them.
My only real response to the column and to the entertaining conversation afterwards is to say, according to Bill Bryson’s “A Short History of Nearly Everything” incest is the only reason the human species (perhaps any) could be alive today, because, if you go back to the time of the Roman Empire, the number of partner pairings we each owe our existence to (parents, paternal/maternal grandparents, paternal/maternal great-grand grandparents etc. etc. etc for a 100 generations or so) exceeds the number of humans who have ever lived since humans evolved.
I think I got that right.
Anyway, if we’ve practised it since the Romans and before, I would bet we’re practising it now considerably.
Why we aren’t open about it, if that’s the case, and how the stigma of incest evolved, is an interesting question.
The fact that there seems to be an obligation to oppose incest openly is more fascinating to me than whether someone actually supports it.
Given that, I can say I applaud J5676’s openness about his point of view. Even if his views are wrong, there is something right about a willingness to deny a social obligation to feel one way or another about something.
One thing I’m sure of- we don’t want to talk about incest, even though we do it. And if we don’t want to talk about it, we can’t have some people questioning that it’s wrong, or parts of it are wrong.
People love being “victims,” because it absolves them of any responsibility whatsoever. One person does not a “relationship” make – BY DEFINITION. EVEN in an abusive relationship, both parties are still responsible for their own actions, whether it’s abuse, or tolerating abuse. It’s still about power and control, and what you’re WILLING to give up, for something else, whatever that may be. It always amazes me how people confuse “empowerment” with “blaming the victim.” If you realize and utilize your power to affect a situation, then you can no longer claim “victim” status (and therefore there is no “victim” to “blame”), and bitch at everyone else in the world, EXCEPT yourself. That takes actual guts. And let’s admit just it: most people in this world are sheep and cowards.
I think Dan nailed both cases, esp. the second one. Also, what 25-year-olds are doing bitching about FACEBOOK, is beyond me. They both sound like they have the emotional maturity of 8-year-olds. Grow the f*ck up.
Between this cringe-worthy letter about a 67-year old woman grinding her withered reproductive bits on horny teenager’s faces to wake them up and demand sex (something straight out of nightmares), and last week’s podcast containing a call about an old nude dude model cumming while art students look on (whether true or not), I think I need to go vomit my brain onto the sidewalk. Thanks, Dan.
@131
The reason incest shouldnt be done in ANY means aside from it just being sick and wrong is because inbreeding leads to things like mental retardation, and other birth defects. Look at pure bread dalmations? They are inbred and a very high percent of them come out deaf. The royal families of Europe where also known for their inbreeding way back when. The crossing of the same few sets of genes over and over leaves nothing new and greatly increases the risk of these things, There needs to be variety in the DNA.
Also incest has only been practiced in minorities. It has never been a standard. You are right in thinking that the number of people back then was greatly less and we all come from those starting people but it wasnt cause of incest the population grew. Sure there was more family mixing but there was enough crossing of different families as well as having LOTS of children as was the norm. People also migrated and mixed and so on. So yes you could end up sleeping or marrying a relative somewhere along the family tree (Many peoples families in the US have ties to say Thomas Jefferson somewhere in the line) but once you get past say…4th cousins its not such a big deal but still!
Incest is not widely praticised in secret like you seem to think it is and the stigma is there rightly so. You and J5676 need serious help.
“You and J5676 need serious help.”
I take exception to that. I never said that I supported incest. I don’t think of it as beneficial or desirable.
I have noticed that people’s opposition to it is largely emotionally based. “Sick and wrong,” as you describe it, isn’t something that can be empirically verified. They are moral terms detached from rationality. I tend to think rationally so I have difficulty making the same emotional judgments This does not mean that I lack emotion, or am insensitive- I merely keep them in check.
I would call incest “dangerous and inadvisable” for the reasons you list, and morally wrong under most circumstances, but not all, instances.
If you’ve ever read Steven Pinker’s essay “The Moral Instinct” you’ll note that one of his hypothetical examples concerns incest. The example ends with subjects asked about this example exclaiming that they “just feel that it’s wrong.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazi…
From the article,
“But consider these situations, originally devised by the psychologist Jonathan Haidt:
Julie is traveling in France on summer vacation from college with her brother Mark. One night they decide that it would be interesting and fun if they tried making love. Julie was already taking birth-control pills, but Mark uses a condom, too, just to be safe. They both enjoy the sex but decide not to do it again. They keep the night as a special secret, which makes them feel closer to each other. What do you think about that — was it O.K. for them to make love?
… Most people immediately declare that these acts are wrong and then grope to justify why they are wrong. It’s not so easy. In the case of Julie and Mark, people raise the possibility of children with birth defects, but they are reminded that the couple were diligent about contraception. They suggest that the siblings will be emotionally hurt, but the story makes it clear that they weren’t. They submit that the act would offend the community, but then recall that it was kept a secret. Eventually many people admit, “I don’t know, I can’t explain it, I just know it’s wrong.” People don’t generally engage in moral reasoning, Haidt argues, but moral rationalization: they begin with the conclusion, coughed up by an unconscious emotion, and then work backward to a plausible justification.”
Incest is dangerous and inadvisable in my mind because the risks of procreation, emotional hurt, and community ostracisism and reprisal are real.
The last part- community ostracism- strikes a particular chord with me because an improperly justified social obligation or obligations is totalitarianism, and I am a vehement and unapologetic anti-totalitarian, which is as far as my support for J5676 goes.
Read the entire essay as the topic is just an example of a larger thesis. I think Pinker only points out that incest cannot be condemned under the controlled context of the example. I only go so far as Steven Pinker’s rational approach to it.
I’m also not suggesting it is widely practised- just that it is likely still practised to some degree- I apologise if I gave the impression that it was practised often. And you’re probably right that now that the world’s population is greater that there is less need or pressure for it. The less it is, I agree, generally the more genetically and psychologically healthy humans will be.
The letter from the column and the example from the essay are startlingly different. Of course, I would condemn the former as morally wrong, because, yes, it is brainwashing and child abuse. That stance can be rationally defended.
I think you, and many, need to develop your objective argumentation. It’s easier to condemn incest rationally, for the most part, than you think. However, a rational conversation about incest is something that I think it is impossible to have with most people, without accusations of support being bandied without justification, as you have demonstrated.
I don’t support incest. Please forgive me if I take a second opinion from someone I know and trust before I seek serious help…
I’m also sorry to have written such a long-winded rebuttal, but I felt that a firm and thorough clearing of the air was in order before I suffocate in a stench of undue villlification.
I check this daily for a new column.
The first letter sounds like she is being set up by a police operative. I just read the article in Vanity Fair describing something similar – I don’t think things like this happen in real life, just in people’s imaginations, which is why these setups happen.
HIO, wake up and smell the coffee. For whatever reason – that’s how he is, he’s sick of the fighting, he considers flirting just flirting – he is not willing, at this point, to stop doing it. You’ve put up with it for 2 years. Either stop letting it bother you, or move on, or accept it until he someday stops, which he may. Or he may not. Can’t or won’t wait? move on. A pretty face that makes YOUR face hurt from crying twice a month isn’t worth it. There are pretty fish out there that are considerate, too, so toss that fishy back and cast bait! 🙂
hoi, you are being emotionally abused by an assshole. you are however, allowing it to happen. i may be wrong about this, but did your father pull similar emotional crap? get away from the asshole and get some counseling so that the next time you meet some “divine” asshole you learn to recognize the asshole and forget the divine. there are many divine,and not so divine, non-asshole people out there. you get this one pass to whine because of your age. that pass is now revoked, as is your license to bitch about someone’s asshole behavior after the 10th time they have proven to you that they don’t give a crap about you. this was your learning experience about choosing based solely on looks. move on and take better care of yourself.