In a vote city council president Richard Conlin called “ministerial,” not discretionary, the city council voted today to put a referendum overturning the city’s 20-cent fee on disposable grocery bags on the August 18, 2009 ballot. Environmentalists who support the fee—easy to spot at this past weekend’s Green Festival by their elaborate costumes made of hundreds of plastic bags—are already gearing up to fight the American Chemistry Council-funded campaign to eliminate the fee. Their campaign will focus on the fact that “Big Oil”—i.e., companies like Exxon and DuPont, which the Chemistry Council represents—is pouring hundreds of thousands of dollars into an effort to keep plastic bags free. Consultant Christian Sinderman and fundraiser Colby Underwood are both working on the campaign against the referendum, which is supported by People for Puget Sound, the Sierra Club, and other local environmental groups.
Bag Fee Vote on August 18
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Erica is a thief. She stole an $8.99 bottle of wine from QFC.
No plastic bag was necessary.
Erica thinks the rest of us should subsidize her drinking.
Yeah, Erica’s favorite little pet cause — the bag fee — certainly does seem much more insulting than ever now that we know Erica shoplifts at grocery stores.
Erica maybe you should stop blogging about this one?
The rest of us — you know, people who actually PAY for our groceries — don’t need an admitted shoplifter lecturing us about bag fees.
This joke will NEVER get old.
Being a manager of a food retail store I have many reasons that I do not like this stupid bag fee. The biggest though is because of how it encourages shoplifting. Then I read this post…
Wow, you have balls ECB.
Why should I vote for the tax?
In the future, it would be advisable to assign someone else the grocery-store related item beat.
I was wrong you do not have balls, you just don’t give a fuck about anyone but yourself.
Stupid trolls. Delete them all!
The chemical lobby is spending a quarter million dollars to defeat the bag fee (it’s not a tax) because they know damn well they stand to lose a lot more as plastic consumption plummets.
Oil companies in pain = warm fuzzy goodness.
i mean if we are weighing morals here i’d say saving the earth is a higher priority then the profit ratio of a business….but thats just crazzzzy talk…..i know i’m crazy
Elenchos,
When you say stupid trolls are you refering to Erica Barnett or the people with valid concerns posting on her threads?
Boring trolls.
As to the vote, I predict a massive win for No Tax on Bags even though most voters like the ban on restaurants using styrofoam.
Because: a. it’s a primary, b. it’s August, c. nobody likes taxes when they’re broke.
Next time bring it back as a Refundable Deposit of around 5 cents and people might not mind.
@8 So let me get this straight, you want to support this stupid law just because the oil companies are against it? Wow that is a mature way to look at policy. Don’t vote for a law because of its merits, vote for a law because you don’t like the guy who is against it.
Every time I read the comments of a Slog post I regret doing so, but I always do it. Just a simple scroll wheel away from seeing the ugly aftermath of a car wreck that is the commenters of Slog. We are doomed as a species.
Most small business owners are whiny Republican shitbirds whose own incompetence leaves them always one quarter away from bankruptcy and whose arrogance prevents them from learning any better or accepting any responsibility for their continual fuckups. It’s only their non stop endless, day after day pissing and moaning and complaining that keeps them in business at all. Any small business too retarded to handle a bag fee needs to be put out of its misery. Fuck ’em.
Any questions on how I feel about that?
I’m confused. How does bringing up the fact that ECB shoplifted make someone a troll?
@5 You have the best point so far (although it is fun to make fun of ECB)
So if you are for this tax (or fee if it makes you feel better) why?
@9 I can say every time that one pays a bag fee a fairy dies, but this does not make it so. Prove it.
@14 You are right we should all work for Walmart and safeway and get all of are food from mexico! Great Idea!!
@14 No but I would love to know which business you were able to start, substsain, and over time succeed. You make it sound simple as shit. But I assume that is because you think it takes the same amount skill to run a business as it does to create those yummy frapachinos you make each morning.
Woe! Woe! Woe! Pity me for I am the world’s biggest fucking martyr! Please for I will die without your pity! I have worked sooooooooooo haaaaaaaard! *sniff*
@18 Elenchos is a former navy mechanic. He likely works for a small business and hates his boss.
@19 Who is whining? Most of my friends who work(ed) for big companies are either out of the job or taking pay cuts. I am about to buy a house!
Still waiting to hear the good reason for this tax-fee…..
@20
Yes that’s it, take a big dump on the veterans who gave you your freedom. And then whine when they ask you to lift a finger. Classy.
FUNNY how a tax is called a fee and the brain dead who want to lecture all of us – are convinced – “it is not a tax but a fee” …
HONEY – it is a bag tax destined for the general fund….. don’t be so gullible when doing politics.
My project for April is trying to pay the 3,000.00 dollars levied against my modest two bedroom house/shack this year – called annual property taxes, went way up in the last three years ….. I am voting no.
I don’t have an extra dime.
@22 Thank you for your service. I am an Army vet.
Now that’s out of the way, you are still wrong slamming small business.
Why do you support the bag-tax-fee law?
@22, If vets like yourself weren’t such self absorbed douchebags who play the “service” card when someone questions them, then maybe I wouldn’t play the “raped by a superior officer, mad at the world” card.
@25
But nothing you’ve said about me is even close to reality. I don’t know where you are getting your information about me — oh wait the internet, right? So you’ve insulted real veterans and spewed nonsense about a figment called “elenchos.” Maybe step away from the computer and get some work done, eh?
@20&25 You brought it up.
My eyes are tired as the first time I read the headline I thought it said “Fag Bee.” I figured it was Savage going on another rant for a second.
Oy vey.
Nobody has to pay a dime in bag fees/taxes if you simply bring your own bag to the store with you. Problem solved.
Why is this a good idea? In other cities and countries that have passed similar ordinances, plastic bag waste was reduced by 80%-95%. Yay for the environment!!
Since no one is going to give a good reason for someone to vote for this bill, can we get back to ECB trash talk?
Computers draw quite a bit of electricity which has a much bigger negative effect on the environment then putting plastic bags into landfills.
Lets ban computers! Yay for the environment.
1) the overwhelming amount of one use bags creates an excessive amount of garbage and is a waste of resources.
2) tax/fee will cut down the amount
of one use bags by forcing people to reuse bags .
conclusion: tax/fee a good
thing.
some people say that people will buy trash bags and other bags they would normally get which would cancel out any decrease. i think they underestimate how many free bags people get and throw away.
can someone explain how fee/tax hurts small businesses? how fee/tax prevents people from shopping at grocery stores, pharmacys, and convenience stores?
side note: stores that make less than one million dollars of annual gross sales get to keep the 20 cents, stores that make more keep 25% of the collected tax/fee
you don’t have to pay this ‘tax’, bring a bag. there is an abundance of free reusable bags. my grocery store gives 5 to 10 cent discount for each bag i bring. using conservative estimates, i have saved somewhere over $150 the past 3 years by bringing my own bags…so you can’t afford this tax?
The bag fee will drastically reduce oil consumption, landfill waste, and put money into the Solid Waste Fund which can do things like reduce utility bills or help with more recycling, which reduces oil consumption, landfill waste, etc.
And it kicks the oil companies in the nads. Bet they will wish they’d spent that $250k on something they could use.
Why are they trying to ram this down our throats again? We already told them we would fight it. Loose plastic bags are *not* a problem in Seattle.
Ok enough fun, time to win the argument.
@29 You are right, if everyone brought their bags every time no one would have to pay the fee. lol.
So I work in food retail. Since I work for a small business one of the things I do is work the checkouts and guess what? Every other person every single day says the same thing,”Oh I forgot my bag, silly me I guess I will remember it next time.” See here is the dirty little secret, no one would like it more then us (the small business retail peeps) if every person every time brought their own bags! We spend around 1k to 4k a month on those stupid little plastic bags. We sell reusable bags at cost because the more they use them the less we spend on bags. We also reuse every single cardboard box that product gets shipped in because it saves money. We like to save money.Here is the second biggest reason for being against this tax-fee (first of course is because it makes it easier for ECB to steal 8.99 bottles of wine) it will be impossible to track and enforce. So usually when we at my small business are ringing someone up the product is not bagged until the transaction is over, and one does not always know how many bags are going to be used. So lets assume one think there is going to be two bags, and charges accordingly, well it turns out that they need three, but the transaction is over. Am I to then charge them for the third? OK but they used a credit card, so am I going to charge them $0.25 on their credit card? Say I do well if you know anything about credit cards you know it cost me around $0.50 to charge them that $0.25. Oh, plus the thermal tape that has to be used so they can sign that slip for that extra bag, but I guess thermal tape has zero environmental impact. Lets not mention that there is a line and people have to wait so I can lose 50cents to charge 25. Tracking? Do I have to have a pen and pad to mark every time I charge for a bag so said taxes-fees can be accumulated for the city. Now what if I am bagging and the bag rips because of a cucumber poked through? Who gets charged the 25cents? Or do not charge it at all in this instance? Is a ripped bag less environmental impact then one that’s not? Now what If I am using a plastic bag for a display, like to hold some snow peas in for instance, does the store which purchased the bags in the first place have to pay a fee to use said bags? I am sure all of you guys can find plenty of answers to my question, but the point is why are we allowing the city to micromanage business, especially in this economic environment, just so some of you can have a warm and fuzzy feeling about the environment, yet you cannot demonstrate the impact that said bags are having on the environment in the first place. Seriously, if you think it is such a good idea start your own business and ban plastic bags, but leave the rest of us alone as we attempt to get our community back on track economically. There are bigger things to worry about then a stupid little plastic bag!
@32 one million in gross sales is not as much as you think it is.
@35
Definitely you win and everybody dumb enough to try to read your unbroken block of word vomit loses. Long ago I learned trying to decipher illiterate rants is a waste of time.
I forgot it is 20 not 25, but it could be a penny and it still does not change my argument…
@37 And that is how it is going to be for us to try and decipher are register receipts to try and figure exactly how much to pay the city at the end of the year for a bag fee. Thank you for helping me make my point! 🙂
@39
Total up the number of bags purchased by the store, multiply by 20 cents, and collect that much. Simple. Stores either charge customers for each bag they give out, or the store eats the 20 cents for each one they lose track of.
The magic of the free market rewards the store that is most efficient at collecting the correct amount of money and punishes the dumbfucks who think it’s soooooo haaaaaaard to know how many bags they use.
LOL
@37 More to the point, people assume that charging 20cents for a bag would be simple, it is not. You have not thought of all the variables that would go into it. 20cents per bag is not a lot of money, either. It is such a low amount that it really would not deture any shopper excepet for the poorest to stop using them. It would only make life harder for the buisness.
If you really want to do limit bags BAN THE BAG! Don’t charge 20cents. I would much rather see the plastic bag banned then this 20cents bullshit. Both are stupid, but at least with a bag ban there is not a bunch of bullshit we would have to go through, and that would be even a bigger hit for the oil companies that you all hate so much.
But a bag ban would still make it easier for ECB to steal wine.
if you can’t figure a way to charge customers for bags and to pay the city 75% of the fee then your businesses is probably doomed because of other reasons. your whole argument is that customers might not be charged for all the bags they use. are you worried about the store being fined for breaking the law? i don’t think you have to worry about the bag gestapo beating you down. charging people for their bags will encourage them to remember to bring there bags every time. i don’t understand how this will make shop lifting easier. it’s already against grocery store policy for customers to put items in a bag that is not a designated cart or basket. and i’m not sure if you realize this but the tax/fee is for plastic bags and paper bags and does not include bags used by customers inside stores to package bulk items.
@40 So why not just tax the source and be done with it?
And what about defective bags?
@43
OMG defective bags! Yeah, I’m sure defetive bags alone will put most of these retards right out of business.
The reason for not taxing the source is that an end-user fee serves the function of changing consumer behavior. The point is to get people to carry reusable bags, and a per-bag fee does that effectively.
It’s hilarious that @41 claims the fee is too small to make people carry reusable bags, while at the same time these idiots are claiming that consumers can’t afford it.
The chemical industry is betting a quarter million dollars that this will change consumer behavior and cause them to consume fewer bags, and thus less oil. They have experience with this and they should know.
@42 if a law can not be effectively enforced why have it?
I know what would end up really happening. You would just look at your bag inventory and figure the 20cent charge for all of them then as much as you can you would charge your customers where it is cost effective. For a place as busy and low budget as where I work 10-20% of the bags would not get charged for because it would not be cost effective. The place I work is, like I said, is fast paced so you are already ringing up the next person before your customers stuff is bagged. You are going to guess low on how many bags they will use because you do not want to overcharge. There is no way to do this without losing money in a place like where I work.
The point is you are going to have more work, more variables to do this. 20cents is only going to effect the poorest customers. Either ban bags all together or not, don’t do a half assed fee on bags. It is stupid.
@44 I never said the fee is to much for consumers to pay. That’s kinda one of my points. It not a big enough fee to make a real difference, it just adds more of a headache. If you are really so concerned why not ban the bags altogether? Like I said earlier this makes much more sense than a 20 cent fee that would not effect 95% of consumers. Plus those who could not afford the bags use EBT cards anyway!
I never said anyone would go out of business. Its a law that would have little effect accept to make some people feel good and cost businesses money and time. If you really hate bags so much start your own business and be bag free! Don’t use bags yourself!
@45 – only blatant disregard of the law would incur a fine, not missing a few bags. but i’m sure you know that. i don’t know why i’m arguing with you, as you would never change your position, or apparently even listen and think about what other people are saying. most importantly, arguing is moot because there is no way it will pass. i agree that over difficulty to implement the law is a valid argument against the fee, but i find it hard to believe that a business could not do it in a succinct manner that would not hurt the business.
@48 I am not saying it would ruin a business. I am saying that it would have a net negative effect on a business. It would have almost no effect on a big business.
And remember this is the second biggest reason I am against this law.
If you look at other countries where this has been tried the biggest reason against this law is because it increases shoplifting. It really does. And this is why ECB likes this law 🙂
Of course I am against this law because I know how it would work in the real world. There is nothing stopping a business from doing it right now. There is nothing stopping you from not shopping at a place that does not charge for plastic bags. If you really liked this law you would NOT shop at a place that does not charge for bags. Anyway my business is not in Seattle, and we would not abide by it anyway because there is no real way to enforce it.
Goodnight.
You think you know how it would work. But you’re only guessing. The chemical lobby does know; they’ve been through this before. They know bag consumption will plummet and they will lose money. Their opposition, and their money, speaks a lot louder than the hypothesizing and opinions of a retail store clerk who has no actual experience with bag fees.
This thread makes me want to go choke a salmon.
Or a baby harbor seal.
i choked a chicken during every reply
“Fuck ’em.”
Well Elenchos, what about all the douche bag dead end losers who wouldn’t know how to start a biz, the same losers the small biz owners have to hire, where will they go?
“veterans who gave you your freedom”
Now who sounds like a whiney Republican. BTW cleaning shitters on a frigate doesn’t impress anyone.
The only ones who bitch and whine more than small business owners are farmers. If they’re so miserable with their lives, they should quit. Or move to a red state if the business climate there is so dandy. Seattle has been a hotbed of socialism for generations. And I thought clever businessmen researched a market before moving into it — doh!
Frigates, the Navy, and whatnot — these things I know nothing of. I don’t know why they were brought up. Nothing to do with me, that’s for sure! I don’t know why Navy veterans are still being insulted in an attempt to help the chemical lobby protect their profits. It’s really sad for me to be further attacked for saying that those veterans don’t deserve this disrespect.
Wait… farmers? What?
e, you know I’m normally with you 100%, but… farmers?
Absolutely, FARMERS. They are about the worst violators of environmental regulations you could meet in a day’s march. Water stealin’, cow-shit-dumpin’-in-the-river, worker-safety-regulations-violatin’ varmints. And it’s only worse if they are christians, because then they’re sure god will forgive them for being in the Mr. Green Jeans Mafia.
bangs has a point.
Just say NO to social engineering through taxation.
You know how stores can avoid the whole hassle of keeping track of how many bags they use?
Don’t give out plastic bags. Really.
In Germany stores will ring up your shit for you and then you’re on your own. Don’t have a bag or a backpack or something with you? Hope you’ve got enough arms, dumbass.
Erica will it be easier to steal wine with you own bag??? Maybe some cute wine bottle decoration on it.
@60: This joke was pretty lame the first time it was used, and it’s already been repeated at least three times before in this thread. Kill yourself. You fail at life.
The $ collected from this bag tax is supposed to pay for information mailings and collatoral about recycling and reusable bags. Most of this junk mail just ends up in the garbage or floating around in the street. So, this is a tax on garbage with the sole purpose of creating more garbage. Yay for the retards!
who broke the story that it was the ACC behind the petition campaign?
The argument that 20 cents a bag is not enough to affect behavior is just plain idiotic. If I didn’t bring my own bags on a trip to the grocery store where we do a big shop, that could be $4-5. I am certainly not “the poorest”, but I also don’t like to spend $5, when it’s really fucking simple for me to not spend $5.
Case in point, the grocery store Aldi charges you for bags, if you don’t bring your own (and to the person saying OMG, it would be sooo hard for grocers to figure out how to do this, maybe you should, you know, talk to Aldi since they’ve been doing it for years). I don’t go there very often, but, when I do, you can be sure that I remember to bring my own bags.
Stretching back @33 “bag fee will *drastically* reduce oil consumption & landfill” ? As a city communications employee even i couldn’t make those two turds fly.
The city’s garbage heads to an eastern Oregon landfill in a train over a mile long, with SIX departures every week. Pretty large volume to get your mind around, huh?
Its not clear to me how businesses will be hurt because of the bag fee (other than bag manufacturers.) Are people going to stop eating because they had to pay $0.20 for a bag- a food boycott? Maybe there will be some public health benefits from the bag fee that no one expected.
@66. Agreed. It’s not like I would suddenly buy less groceries or less stuff at the pharmacy (hmmm… well, I could buy this cold medicine, but darn that bag tax, I think I’ll just suffer through it).
It may introduce an additional financial and logistical complexity for stores (a complexity that other stores have already learned how to deal with), but it shouldn’t hurt their bottom line. Particularly if people’s behavior actually does change — if 75% of people bring their own bags, then that’s 75% fewer bags the store has to purchase and give away.
@66,
Not to be argumentative (ha!), but if you’re a poor person who rides the bus, and forgot your disposable bag(s) and need to shop on the way home – the .20 per bag fee probably will affect your buying choices (that’s two top ramens on sale, for example), and yes, impose an actual hardship on you.
But all of the self-righteous greenwash types do get to feel better about their pure selves.
Ramen are 7 for a dollar.
@68: Because top ramen is so hard to carry?
Erica is a thief and deserves as much hassling about it as can come.
@71: And you’re a loser, but you’re probably used to hearing about it all the time.
Hey Greg @61 I am here laying in a pool of blood. Happy???
@61 ridicule a shoplifter and you deserve to die. nice. you should ask erica on a date. you could steal some wine together and if you get busted by security you could shoot them dead. because they would deserve it, right? don’t mess with a shoplifter and expect anything less then dying.
@59 that isn’t true. you’re not the only person who has been to germany. they always ask you upfront if you want to buy a bag. you might have been too stupid to understand, since they ask in german.
but yeah, anyone criticizing erica for shoplifting deserves to DIE. they should KILL THEMSELVES. um, ok. i guess some aspects of germany are appealing to you, you IRRATIONAL NAZI FUCK.
A 20 cent tax on plastic bags doesn’t encourage shoplifting. That’s CRAZY talk. If you’re willing to pay, and you need a bag, you’ll shell out 20 cents. If you’re going to steal something big enough that you need a bag, you’ve got ambitions beyond saving 20 pennies.
I support the tax, but then I hardly ever use bags anyway.
@75
What is you name? I find that anonymity provides certain people of a dickish nature with much more courage than they would have otherwise. You are a coward. A spineless, petulant, unwanted fuck stain.
the law is a piece of badly written shit
vote no – and then – let’s who are pure and undefiled greens – let’s write the perfect law
the greenie gropeies do what Conlin tells them- this law – repeat, is a piece of ill conceived shit
start over, vote no
@77 um ok what’s your point? Facebook profile link, please. I bet if you REALLY told us who you were you would not have the “courage” to call some anonymous commentator a spineless fuck stain. I mean look at how pathetic you are, JUSTIN, calling out the trolls, WOW, you are our HERO.
there are bags small enough to fit in a pouch that attach to your keychain. stores need to start selling them and instruct their patrons do as such.
make things easier for the tiny consumer brain to comprehend.
no matter what anyone thinks they’re talking about, plastic bags are VERY detrimental to the environment and there are litterally billions of them on earth. you can read about it, and also just you know, use some common sense? try to imagine yourself standing in the middle of the mountain that contains all of the plastic bag and other plastic waste on this planet.
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/0…
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cg…
http://www.mindfully.org/Plastic/Ocean/T…