To those of you arguing it’s ok for Seattle to have little to no snow removal capacity, because it doesn’t snow all that often here, two points to consider:
1. Historically, winter weather like we’ve experienced the last week, isn’t all that rare. From UW meteorologist Cliff Mass’s blog:
We have a major snowfall (like this year) every 5-8 years and significant snowfalls 4-8 inches every other year or so. Each year we generally have few 2-3 inch snows, but some years only get a dusting.
If you’re thinking this is a once in decades or hundreds of years thing, you are wrong.
Civil engineers, when doing their job, plan for infrastructure to handle weather that occurs only once in a hundred years. Further, when infrastructure fails, it should fail gracefully, not swiftly and unpredictably.
2. Most likely, climate change is already occurring. At current atmospheric carbon levels, we are likely already too late to stop it.
Winter weather weeks, like we’re experiencing now, are predicted to increase in frequency in the PNW. In fact, climate change is likely to make weather less predictable—more droughts, more floods, more snow, more cold and hot weeks. I wouldn’t be surprised if later this winter we have a 60-degree week.
This is bad news all around. Bad news for farmers. Bad news for the poor souls responsible for managing the large hydroelectric dams—built on assumptions of consistency in PNW weather. Bad news for Seattle drivers as well.
I say it’s time we buy a few more snow plows. Isn’t Obama—the dirty homophobe—planning on throwing money at local governments to purchase essential infrastructure? This might be a good time to put together a proposal.
My problem actually has very little to do with snow removal and much more to do with disaster preparedness. In a major earthquake, we would face much of the same need to clear streets as we have with the snow fall. The city needs a realistic strategy of clearing MAJOR arterials (and though I have enjoyed their efforts the clear Greenwood/Phinney and 8th NW, I can hardly see the need for both of these to draw effort.
I would actually vote for the city doing LESS but doing it better, and with more information. Which also raises the issue of the media’s role. It would have been really helpful if the press could have told us what was happening, rather than what Metro, SDOT etc. were saying was supposed to be happening.
Not a huge ordeal all around, but I live within blocks of several grocery stores and have the ability to walk to them…
Whatever. Operator error is not infrastructure failing “swiftly and unpredictably.” A few days of reduced driving access does not a crisis make. We have much, much bigger risks here in the PNW that we ignore on a daily basis. The only reason people have their panties in a bunch about this is that we’re an auto-addicted semi-city and people can’t stand the idea of not being able to drive everywhere, all the time.
Yes! More snow plows, but I do respect the lack of salt on the roads vs. puget sound.
I keep hearing “climate change” and “global warming”, but really, this happens in Seattle! And from what I remember as a local, has been happening a little less than it used to. People that have only been living her for ten years or so keep saying that this is really surprising! No!
Okay, I’m done
Shit, and now Busview is broken. Bah!
This, of course, would be much less of an issue if Seattle decided to actually build the light rail/monorail etc. when it was voted on and approved a decade ago. But we didn’t so when the snow hits there are no alternatives besides driving (which no one knows how to do because it almost never snows).
It is probably better to plow less. If all the streets had snow, then everyone could keep their chains/snow tires on. But because some streets are plowed most people only need chains for a couple of blocks then are diving most of the time on the snowless and iceless roads, contributes to more road cracks and need for repairs and we just spiral downwards unsure is we are Santa Monica or Minnesota.
didn’t most of last February pretty much hover around 70 degrees?
I think it’s reasonable to assume that for most governments – federal, state, or local – there is never going to be enough money to ideally fulfill all of its obligations, and as such, budgeting is a matter of figuring out which services can be half-assed with the fewest repercussions.
Maybe I’m wrong there, but assuming I’m not .. even if Seattle gets snow like this every five to eight years, demanding an investment in snowplows and other snow removal equipment when the city doesn’t have enough money to fulfill perennial obligations like education seems pretty short-sighted and reactionary.
And even if we’re just talking about infrastructure spending, there are still more efficient ways to budget, e.g., mass transit, bridges, viaducts/viaduct replacements, than buying plows that are going to be tits on a bull most or all of the year, most years.
So, just to clarify, since weather is likely to become less-predictable, you’d like the city to work on predicting the weather better?
I love you, Jonathon Golob! (platonically, of course.)
Too many dumb motherfuckers around here do not seem to understand that the weather is cyclical, regardless of global warming. It looks like the PNW IS going into a period of colder, wetter, icier winters and we need to prepare for it.
Note to #2: I don’t have a car. I have my panties in a bunch because I’m scared to walk down the street because it’s highly possible I’m going to break my leg on the ice or get hit by an out of control car or cross country skier. Also, the buses aren’t running very well, so it takes me an hour and 45 minutes to get to work when it normally takes me 35 to 40 minutes. And my trash isn’t getting picked up. And it scares me that the city can’t deal with a little snow, what will it do in a real crisis?
is there a magical mystical part of Seattle that gets 70 degree weather in February? Where is it?!?!? I want to move there! Is it called Cloud Cuckoo Land?
I seem to remember it being more like the 50’s for much of the month, which isn’t that unusual for the February Thaw…
It never ceases to amaze me how utterly clueless some people can be regarding the critical economic importance of our roadway transport system. (Hint: passenger cars account for only about 41% of motor vehicle fuel consumption.)
It’s not the snow fall per se that’s causing all this havoc, Jonathon; it’s the combination of multiple days of snow precipitation PLUS multiple days of sub-freezing temperatures that’s got things totally fucked up around here this week.
Sure, we get a few inches of snow every year, but it’s generally gone within 48 hours, because the daytime temps usually stay well above freezing. But, what we’re experiencing right now IS highly unusual; the last time we had six or more consecutive days of temps at or below freezing was December, 1990, and then you have to go back to 1972 for the next significant run of sub-freezing daytime temps.
And keep in mind, these didn’t include significant snow precip, just cold temps. You have to go all the way back to the winter of 1949/1950 to find a similar run of major snowfall PLUS below-freezing temps.
So, for all the people whining that “Seattle should have a Gazillion dollars worth of snow removal equipment on-hand, at the ready, just in case”, this truly is a “once in every 50 years’ occurance”.
Comte,
I generally agree. My point is, Seattle should be better at handling adverse weather. Snow, flooding, windstorms. They all happen more often than some people assume, and are likely to increase.
Thanks to climate change, we can no longer count on the PNW for having a moderate and generally gentle weather pattern. Having a greater capacity to handle the concequences of adverse weather seems like a good investment. So, perhaps not just plow trucks, but rather utility trucks.
Alas. This isn’t a time to be making a rational argument to prepare.
But most of our snow events during this period are not associated with a long period of cold weather. Usually any snow we get is wet and not very icy and it dissappears in a day or two from warmer temps/rain.
I think there has been one other time in the last 10 years were I’ve witnessed this amount of snow in a 2-3 day period. I got a over a foot of snow in W Seattle.
And fuck Cliff Mass as the end all be all. He is like any other meterologist – prone to mistakes/misinterpretation/unable to effectively read the tarot cards that predict the weather.
beef: Just an interesting side-fact. Warm snow and ice (close to the freezing point) is more slippery than cold snow and ice.
What makes ice slippery is the thin layer of water that forms at the top–at the boundary between the air and the ice. The warmer the air, the larger this layer of water is, and the more slippery the surface is. Hence, it was easier to get around when we were down into the 20’s last week, rather than today when we’re above 30 degrees F.
Anyways. I agree, this is a bit worse than the historical pattern. I’m trying to point out there a decent chance this sort of thing might be the new normal; a week of snow locked streets, therefore, might be something worth planning for, even as a contingency.
I dunno, I think seattle plowed the streets pretty decently considering the dearth of plows. We got nuked on Beacon Hill (like 14 inch accumulation), but it’s not that hard to get around. Sure, the side streets are compact snow and I had to shovel for a few minutes to get my car out, but the arterials are just fine for a front wheel drive beater that has decent tires on it. Not all of the hills are passable, but it makes sense to close some of the steepest streets.
The point is well-made about infrastructure failing gracefully rather than chaotically, however I’d say (with the exception of metro–good luck getting anywhere on the bus!) the failure has been graceful. Fewer people on the streets but no major snarls. This is the deepest, longest snow accumulation I can remember in 20 years in Seattle and only one fatality? Good work, I say. I’m going to go skiing again.
“In fact, climate change is likely to make weather less predictable”
THANK YOU. Please repeat that sentence every time someone posts about weather to the Slog. I’m tired of having to say it in comments.
@ Andrew. WTF are you talking about? I’m on Beacon Hill, and it’s a mess here. There are only a handful of east/west streets open, making it very difficult to access our major arterials. The ice is thick and slick along all of the sidewalks– for those of us who even have sidewalks on the Hill, and some streets still have a foot of snow going straight down them. And Metro buses, of course, are running terribly. Most of the people on my block, located at the very bottom of a steep hill haven’t left their homes much in the last week.
We always have a 60 degree week in February. Everyone gets all excited that Spring is Here! and then gets all butthurt when an icy cold blast of wind and weather blows in and rains on their parade.
@18
Columbia is fine onto I-5, the 12th ave bridge is fine into the ID, Alaska was down to sand and slush down to Rainier (at least yesterday). I haven’t taken a look at 23rd yet. Yes, there are varying amounts of compact snow on all of them but with a set of all-season tires it’s fine.
I could see how you could get fucked in some places on the east side of the hill, where there’s no gentle way up or down. Sorry ’bout that, I’m right next to the golf course.
I’ve yet to see a snow plow anywhere other than on a major highway.
The city’s snow pack plan is ludicrous and elitist and designed for 4×4’s and 4wd vehicles; in other words, rich people (suburbanites and yuppies)with expensive vehicles. Meanwhile, the poor who depend on a mass transit system that is barely functioning, get fucked.
And our economy is losing millions of dollars a day because of the weather and the poor way the city is handling the cleanup. I don’t think anyone thinks they need to spend untold millions, (which they don’t have) on dozens of new trucks, but they do need to come up with a new plan which WILL have to include some new equipment.
Snow removal equipment does not equal infrastructure. Let me say that again: snow removal euipment DOES NOT EQUAL INFRASTRUCTURE. Infrastructure equals roads, utilities, and transit systems (ideally, the kind on rails that supposedly is unaffected by snowfalls –although, Amtrak has been down this week, so WTF?). And the kind of infrastructure that Dear Leader is interested in investing in is the type that will put large numbers of people back to work for significant amounts of time, not already-coddled city employees who are currently racking up the overtime but only for a week or two(my fingers are crossed that this snow doesn’t stick around for the next 3 months). After reading your knock on the Times for being overly simplistic in a headline just to make a desired point, I thought I’d point that out.
Please, no more “Obama—the dirty homophobe” comments. Take some time to read the many posts on Rick Warren at http://andrewsullivan.com over the last week to get another perspective. Obama does not agree with all Warren stands for. I believe he’s just given Warren a place at the table to open dialog. From that, minds can be changed. Let’s stop the temper-tantrum and make our case in a forum where it can make a difference. Thanks!
I grew up around Olympia so I am used to deeper longer lasting snowfalls. I’ve lived in Seattle for 18 years and only remember two real “winters”: 1990 and 1996. I also remember that it didn’t snow a lot last year but snowed more often, as late as April of this year.
People can’t remember how to drive in the rain, which happens a lot, you really expect them to remember how to drive in the snow?
I call bullshit on the “easier to get around when it’s cold” idea. Both yesterday and today cars and buses were making decent progress on the roads during the day. Then the sun set, everything froze, and all hell broke loose.
Also, COMTE nails it. It’s not the snow, it’s the fact that it stayed, which really is an unusual occurrence. We’d save more money and lives repairing bridges, building mass transit, and buying a little salt (one day a year is not going to do shit to the Sound) than buying a bunch of plows to sit in storage most years.
This storm has really brought out the whiniest in Seattleites and I don’t like it much.
SDOT also needs to talk to Metro and find out what kind of road surface its buses can run on. This ‘hard-packed snow with sand’ thing is not cutting it for buses trying to get up hills, even ones with chains on.
Busview.org died due to a machine in Wilcox Hall crashing. It should be rebooted on Friday.